Does God Say No? Part 1

[00:00:00] Cody: Hi, thank you for tuning in to the Logic of God podcast. I'm Cody. 


[00:00:14] Gina: I'm Gina. 


[00:00:15] Cody: And I'm Ben. If you're returning, thank you for coming back. And if you are a new guest, welcome. 


[00:00:31] Gina: We're taking things in a kind of different direction than we expected. expected this week, because that's just the way that God is sometimes still on prayer, just a different avenue. So like, when we pray, because we're Christians, God always says yes, right? 


[00:00:51] Cody: You 


[00:00:51] Ben: mean God always says yes, he's a genie. There are a lot of pastors who've taken And I would say this is a very common approach in especially non denominational churches. 


[00:01:03] The idea that God wants to say yes, and if he doesn't, or it seems like you're not getting your prayer answered, a lot of it has to do with you. And it's maybe it's not the right time, but eventually God will say yes. 


[00:01:16] Gina: Or maybe you have a secret sin in your life and you need to repent. 


[00:01:19] Ben: Yeah, you could have something just standing between you and God, and that's the thing that's keeping your prayer from being answered. 


[00:01:25] And then, if you just keep praying and keep at it, and you speak boldly, and you pray boldly, and you believe in your heart that God will do it, eventually He will. 


[00:01:35] Gina: Yeah, but if he doesn't your faith isn't strong enough. 


[00:01:38] Ben: Yeah, and that's the feeling I think all of us have gotten at one time or another from a lot of different non denominational churches And I don't even think it's just non denominational churches. 


[00:01:47] I do think it's a lot of Protestant churches, mainly. I don't know enough about the Catholic teachings today to say the post Vatican II era, if that's the approach that they take, but I do get the feeling a lot of Christians are being told that they should be getting their prayers answered. And if they're not, there's something wrong. 


[00:02:07] And that's kind of what we wanted to address tonight. Does God always say yes or does He want to say yes? 


[00:02:14] Gina: Does He even always answer? 


[00:02:16] Ben: Very good question. And I think we've all gone through periods where we've been praying our hearts out and it felt like God either wasn't listening or He wasn't paying attention or He wasn't answering. 


[00:02:26] First off, does God ever say no? Does He respond to every prayer? What do you guys think? 


[00:02:33] Gina: God absolutely says no, and there's scriptural evidence for it. And I think God can respond to every prayer, but His answer isn't always what we expect, and so we don't acknowledge that as an answer to our prayer. And I think Cody made a good analogy earlier with the, you have a green t shirt, but you want a blue t shirt prayer. 


[00:02:55] Do I think that God is going to look at your frivolous prayers and always answer them? No, probably not. That's my opinion. 


[00:03:02] Ben: So what, you said that there are scriptural examples of God not answering prayers. What would those be? 


[00:03:07] Gina: So there's like some really obvious ones, like when David, lusted after the woman and then killed her husband and then had a baby with her and the baby died and he begged God to Save the baby and God did not save the baby. 


[00:03:19] That would be the first example 


[00:03:22] Ben: for that one specifically Nathan the prophet had already told david that his son was going to die and that god was not going to change his mind God is beyond that. He is eternal. Once he has set his mind to something, he's not going to be shifted. And so David went to the temple and he prayed constantly, even knowing that, because he knew that God was good and God was just, and maybe this was a test for him and there was no harm in doing it. 


[00:03:47] And then once his son died, He just, it was like a switch flipped and he immediately just went, washed his face, put on lotions and stuff and he went about his regular life and he said, there was no reason for me not to pray fervently to the Lord, but now it's done. I will go to him. He will not go to me. 


[00:04:04] Referring to his son. In that instance, God had already given the answer and I do think that's still a very valuable thing to point out. There are times where we are given an answer. And we don't like it. 


[00:04:14] Gina: Accept it, yeah. 


[00:04:16] Ben: I think that's a lot. 


[00:04:17] Gina: Yeah. 


[00:04:18] Ben: And I do think that oftentimes where we feel like God isn't listening or God isn't paying attention, it's not that he isn't listening or paying attention. 


[00:04:25] It's that we already know in our heart what the answer to a prayer or a question is. Sometimes we've been told we need to wait. Sometimes we've been told now is not the time and so we're just sitting there asking is it time yet? Is it time yet? And it's 


[00:04:38] Gina: funny because if you look at scripture like god didn't just be like, okay It's been six hours. 


[00:04:44] I'll give it to you 


[00:04:46] Cody: It's 


[00:04:46] Gina: been 40 years Yeah, 


[00:04:49] Cody: how long did moses wander around 


[00:04:51] Gina: a long 


[00:04:52] Ben: time which time because There's the first time he went into the desert and then he went out and met with jethro high priest of midian And that guy became his father in law and he stuck around there until he was in his, what, his 50s? 


[00:05:04] Cody: Yeah, it was a long time. 


[00:05:05] Gina: Moses waited 40 years, Joseph waited 13 years, Noah waited 120 years, Abraham waited 25 years, and David waited 12 years. For what? I'm not sure, but that was on Instagram this morning. 


[00:05:19] Ben: And that sounds about right. All of them were waiting for one thing or another. 


[00:05:23] Gina: Yeah. We don't like to wait. 


[00:05:25] Ben: No, we don't. 


[00:05:26] Gina: Especially when Amazon has same day delivery now. 


[00:05:28] Cody: And even the Abraham was told that he was going to have to wait. The sin of the Amorites wasn't to fulfillment yet. So it was going to be another 400 years. I think it says I'm not familiar. I can't quote exactly, but even that had to wait. 


[00:05:47] Ben: Yeah, and that's actually a very good point. There was a very far reaching plan that God had for the people who lived in Canaan. And that's one of the sticking points a lot of people have. In God's eventual dealings with the Canaanites is that God ordered their extermination and people feel like why would God even allow such a thing? 


[00:06:06] One, he actually removed Abraham from the land and he specifically told him, These people are not evil enough to deserve extermination. I am removing you and your descendants from this land until such time as these people are evil enough. And there's another story that we really shouldn't forget where if there are 10 righteous people in the city of Sodom, I will save the whole place for their sake. 


[00:06:29] Think of how terrible the land of Canaan had to be for God to say, get rid of all of them. And also keep in mind, the Israelites didn't do that. Setting all that aside, we get the idea that, yeah, there are times where we just have to wait and that is tough. But even then, that's still something where God has made a promise, or given an answer, and then you're waiting. 


[00:06:49] Is there an example of God literally saying no? 


[00:06:52] Cody: Yeah, I mean you have Elijah praying to die in 1st Kings 19. 4. He asked God to kill him. Jonah does something very similar. Moses does something very similar. 


[00:07:04] Gina: And he's like, no, but here's an angel, and by the way, take a nap and have a snack. 


[00:07:11] Ben: Well, those were prayers that were made in moments of extreme stress. 


[00:07:14] Gina: Yeah. 


[00:07:15] Ben: Is there examples given in the Bible of people praying for something that would be reasonable? And we would look at and think, obviously God would say yes, and then he says no. 


[00:07:24] Cody: I mean, there's Paul's thorn in his side, whatever that might be. 


[00:07:28] I don't think scripture really answers that. 


[00:07:30] Ben: Yeah, that's 2 Corinthians chapter 12 verses 7 through 9. Therefore, in order to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. But he said to me, My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness. 


[00:07:52] Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me. That's about as solid a no as you can get, and he got three no's on that. And, looking at this, it seems likely that it was some kind of physical affliction, and considering all of the people that Paul and the apostles healed, you would think it would be reasonable that God would heal him, and he didn't. 


[00:08:14] So why not? 


[00:08:15] Cody: I don't know. 


[00:08:16] Gina: Well, the verses kind of hint at the fact that it can be used to glorify God, it can be used to glorify Jesus. 


[00:08:24] Cody: Oh, and there's so many different speculations on this. Paul was the Pharisee of Pharisees, and he could have been boastful if he didn't have this affliction. It's something I've heard before, and there is a A lot to be said about his character. 


[00:08:43] I mean, he's going through healing these other people, and yet he can't even have that healing himself. But he still carries on healing and preaching through that. 


[00:08:52] Ben: And to be fair, in the very beginning of that quotation, it says, Therefore, in order to keep me from becoming conceited. Paul seems to think whether or not he's correct. 


[00:09:02] He does seem to think that the reason the Lord did this is literally because he was a very proud man, and there was a high potential for his pride to overwhelm him. So I think it's a very good point. 


[00:09:13] Gina: That ties in really well with James 4. 3, which is, it says, when you ask, you do not receive because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures. 


[00:09:24] So I think we have to really evaluate if we're praying for our pleasure or for God's glory. Because if we make ourselves the main character in God's story, then we've got our kind of like food pyramid out of order. If we're the top, then we've put ourselves above God. Or if we've put what we want above God, then it becomes an idol. 


[00:09:49] And that's still for our personal gain or personal pleasure. And it doesn't necessarily glorify God. So you have scripture that's explaining that if you ask with wrong motives, you won't receive what you're asking for. 


[00:10:03] Ben: But let's say that you do ask with the right motive. Let's say that you're praying someone will come to Christ. 


[00:10:08] And it seems, at the very least in the moment, like that's just not happening. 


[00:10:12] Gina: I actually read something the other day about that. Ah, it's somewhere in Psalms. But it, it talks about how it doesn't always matter if we pray for somebody to come to Christ because sometimes they're too far gone or too wicked. 


[00:10:29] And I have a situation in my life where I'm praying for somebody, even now, and God has kind of said, you've had enough from this person. You don't have to be involved with them anymore. And I feel kind of absolved from that prayer, because she's kind of proven that there's no, like, she's too far gone. And scripture talks about that. 


[00:10:49] I just can't directly quote it. I 


[00:10:51] Cody: mean, there's a lot on that. There's Paul plants, Apollos waters, and then the growth is to God. So, I mean, there's a lot of, you can, plant and water it and water it and water it, but only God can make it grow. 


[00:11:06] Gina: My most fervent prayer for somebody to be saved is for this person. 


[00:11:11] This is my mother. And it hasn't happened. And I've been praying years, like since I became a believer, I've been praying for her to become a believer. And year after year, she has proven her wickedness over and over escalating. So when God says you've had enough to me, it's okay. I can't shoulder that anymore. 


[00:11:32] So like, I don't think that people are praying that because they believe that the person is going to be saved as much as they probably are afraid for their salvation or eternity. And I think that those are probably the hardest people to convince, if that makes sense. That's a really tough prayer. 


[00:11:52] Ben: And it's interesting you talking about feeling almost like you're absolved, like there's no guilt in not praying for someone. 


[00:11:59] I don't know my mom's side of the family very well, and that's more or less because after my mom married my father and became a Christian, essentially her side of the family just rejected her. Like, she was kinda kicked out. And, for a very long time, My mom was both praying to be reconciled with her family and also for the salvation of that side of her family because they were militant atheists. 


[00:12:24] I mentioned that before, but they used to be a part of the Catholic church. There was a falling out and then they went from Catholics to hardcore atheists. And my mom thankfully was able to escape that when she met my father and then became a Christian. But because it was essentially escaping the control of my grandfather and my grandmother, And then eventually they moved to Florida. 


[00:12:45] That was just, at that point, she was dead to them. And there was a point where, honestly, there are, there are too many points to tell, but kind of calmly needed at one point after we had moved to Florida. Where one of my relatives was having a wedding, and she invited my mom, and also my sister Jessie went. 


[00:13:03] She was completely separated from everyone else who was a member of the family. My mom was on her own. And then there came a point where the whole family, Everybody, there was going to be a family picture. My mom was not invited to be a part of that picture. My sister was. They were trying to make a divide in our family. 


[00:13:20] And it was made abundantly clear, time after time, that they didn't want anything to do with her. And that was all my mom wanted, was to be a part of them. To be a part of their lives again. And. To know that they knew Christ. That was what she was praying for. And at some point she stopped. I don't know exactly when, but about a year ago, my grandfather was in very bad health and the Lord put it on my heart. 


[00:13:43] We needed to go see him. I had seen him once when I was like six, seven years old. And I felt, Oh, I think I know what this is about. I think there's finally going to be some reconciliation here. Like, my grandfather is going to finally, recognize what happened. And at this point, my grandmother had been dead. 


[00:14:01] And it seems like most of the drama was coming from her. And so it seemed like there was finally going to be a chance for him to, you know, going to be the teary eyed come to Jesus moment. And I was praying for that. And I told my mom that I was praying for that. And she said, I think you need to temper your expectations. 


[00:14:17] And I was approaching it from the Protestant. No, you need to pray boldly and you need to really believe. And I'm like, but no, I totally know what this is about. The Lord wouldn't send me up there. For that to ha for that not to happen, and you're going with me, so obviously that's what this is about. I knew what it was about, and then we get up there, and we meet with my grandfather, and my Aunt Kathy Jo was there as well, and it was two and a half hours, three hours of talking, and it was nice, but there were no tears. 


[00:14:45] There was no recognition of any wrongdoing, from him at least, and by the end of it, it was like, okay, it's gonna be just a cordial goodbye. And that's it. And I was really disappointed. And I was thinking, what If there's anyone who deserves a happy ending from this, it's my mom. You guys have met my mom. If there's An angel. 


[00:15:06] There is not a single person on earth who has anything bad to say about my mom, except My grandparents, apparently. And they didn't have any legitimate claims to hate her or be angry with her at all. And this poor woman had been praying for years to be reconciled, and now there's some measure of reconciliation, what, this is it? 


[00:15:24] But, while my grandfather didn't weepily get up and admit that for the past 20, 30 years he'd been a complete fool and that he was going to drop to his knees and pray to the Almighty to save his soul, and begged my mom for forgiveness, which is what I was hoping for, or something like that. What was interesting to me is that my Aunt Kathy Jo, at the very end when we were going to leave, got up and gave each of us a 30 second hug, which is crazy. 


[00:15:52] Have you ever hugged anyone for 30 seconds? Yeah, it was very long. She was not a focus of mine at all this entire time. I was entirely focused on my grandfather. But for the first time, which sadly was at the end, I suddenly realized my aunt felt terrible. She knew exactly what it was that side of her family did, and she believed some of the things that my grandparents were saying about my mom. 


[00:16:18] And then suddenly it was all gone, and she felt terrible, and she felt like she didn't deserve my mom's love. And she was overjoyed at the fact that my mom loved her, and was willing to be there. And to let all of that go. It wasn't about my grandfather. And granted, this was It was a chance for him, sure. 


[00:16:40] The Lord had him in mind too. But it's not just about him. And you don't know why God tells you to do the things that you do. You think you do. There's the obvious answer. But there's more people tied up in each of the decisions that we make than we realize. And I very nearly missed something truly beautiful, which is that both my Aunt Kathy Jo and my Aunt Mickey, who I met later after I'd kind of realized all this, I saw how much they loved my mom. 


[00:17:08] Now they knew what they had lost and they knew exactly what it meant for my mom to love them. And I really understood what the Lord meant when he said, whoever's been forgiven of much loves much. My mom has forgiven that whole side of my family for so much. And maybe my grandfather doesn't understand that, but my aunts do. 


[00:17:28] And my Aunt Mickey is, thank God, coming to Christ. She's on the road to it. She talks to my mom about Jesus all the time now. And hopefully my Aunt Kathy Jo's not too far behind. And because they've been forgiven of so much, that's the avenue. That's the way that they're finding Christ. So yeah, it doesn't seem like it's fair that my mom had to go through years of separation and insults and muck dragging for that. 


[00:17:54] Gina: Yeah. 


[00:17:55] Ben: There had to have been some other way for God to do that. There had to have been. At least that's the way that you instinctively feel. There has to be. There has to be some way for your mom to be saved, other than going through all of the crazy witchcraft and Like, there has to be, there has to be better ways to do all this. 


[00:18:11] We don't know that. 


[00:18:13] Gina: But it's a really beautiful story to prove the point that, like, God's no is not black and white. Because where he says no or not right now to one person or one thing that your heart is longing for, he draws your attention, if you're paying attention, to this other thing. And now through discipleship, your mom has developed this relationship with both of these aunts and is drawing them closer to Christ by her example. 


[00:18:41] And in one way, it was a no, but in another way, it's two yeses. And that's really amazing. 


[00:18:47] Ben: And the whole story, I'm sorry, I got a little off track. The whole point was that you had mentioned there's a point where you feel like you don't have to keep plugging away. When my mom told me that It's great that you're praying about this, but temporary, your expectations. 


[00:19:04] I thought that it was because she'd given up hope. That's not the truth. The truth is that she knew. She'd been praying for this longer than I had. And there was a point where she just understood. My grandfather's made his choice. Maybe he'll change his mind before he dies, I hope he does, but At this point too, I have said the prayers that I felt I should say for him. 


[00:19:24] And I know that I love him, and I know I've forgiven him for whatever it is he's done to me, and worse what he's done to my mom. And that took a lot to do, if I'm honest. But that's all that I can do. The rest is up to him. If we genuinely believe we have any choice in salvation, God's not gonna force him to do anything. 


[00:19:42] Gina: Thank you for sharing that because I know it wasn't easy. 


[00:19:45] Cody: And I mean, family is the, of all people are the people who are supposed to rally around you and be there for you and love you unconditionally. And you have a similar experience, or I know you can relate a lot to that. 


[00:20:02] Gina: Nobody likes hearing that they made your childhood miserable. 


[00:20:05] Cody: Yeah. 


[00:20:05] Gina: My whole family is so offended that I have chosen to use my voice to draw attention to the types of dynamics that I grew up in and how volatile they were, especially involving the occult. And even though my mom is involved in the occult, she denies it. It's very weird because she's not, like, loud and proud. 


[00:20:26] She's very secretive and dark. And she lets people believe what they want, does what she does in secret, and then when she gets called out, she denies it. And it's the same thing with the neglect and the abuse that they put me through growing up. People deny it because it doesn't make them feel good. 


[00:20:46] Especially when you're on a podcast, or in my case, even writing a book. There's this risk of people coming out and saying, that's, her memory isn't accurate. And then you get gas lit, and you get triangulated, and there's a lot of narcissism involved in all of that. And so it's beautiful that your aunts, Have kind of repented of what happened and have built a relationship and I've longed for that with my family and there's been a lot of, okay, God, um, why did you let me go through foster care and get adopted into a family that completely fell apart when I was two years old and have everything happen the way that it did? 


[00:21:23] And then why did I get reconnected with my biological family only for them to reject me when I felt like I was called to evangelize to them? Um, And now my parents, my biological parents are dead. So it's like a lot of, okay, God, you've closed a lot of doors. You said no a lot of times. And I, I kept thinking like, oh, this must be the path and it's not. 


[00:21:46] And a lot of times it's literally just Gina be still. And it's hard because I want to make it make sense and someday maybe he'll give me the full picture of why. But for right now, I'm just trying to be obedient and knowing that he said, you've had enough. I have to accept that because there's been a lot of spiritual warfare going on in our lives this week, just this one week. 


[00:22:12] And so my aunt, we love my aunt. She's my mom's sister. She came to visit us in October and she asked me some weird questions. She was like, would you ever let your mom give your kids gifts for Christmas? And I was like, no. We don't accept anything from her because we're not, you know, On good terms with her. 


[00:22:31] I just don't feel comfortable accepting those things into my home with my children when we're not good. She's okay. And then she went home and she shipped us three boxes of gifts, which she's never done before. She's never been a big gifter and I'm okay with that. I'd rather have less than more because having three kids with tons of toys is really overwhelming, but I just. 


[00:22:54] And she texted me very specific instructions for these gifts and I was like, I feel weird about this. Cody, do you think this is from my mom? And he was like, it kind of stinks of that. And then I was like, okay, I'm going to pray that God tells me what to do with these boxes when they get here. Cause I don't feel like. 


[00:23:15] I should touch them until I've heard from God. So the boxes arrive and the kids bring them into our house without knowing what they are and without knowing that we have a plan not to bring them in the house until God speaks and tells us what to do. So I'm praying and I'm praying and these boxes are sitting in the back of our truck and I start getting sick and I start getting migraines and the kids start having like really weird stuff happen. 


[00:23:47] Ellie had a major behavioral issue at school, which is not like her. And we talked to her about it and she was like, I'm hearing a voice telling me to do bad stuff. And so we prayed over her and anointed her and taught her how to rebuke in Jesus name. Amen. Amen. But like the whole time, I'm like, okay, why is our world crumbling around us as these boxes are sitting in our front yard in the truck? 


[00:24:14] And so I'm like, I get my second migraine. I'm like sitting there and I'm thinking, God, why haven't you told me what to do yet? And And then he's already told you you had enough, like you've had enough. If you believe that this is from her, throw it away. Don't even worry about it. So Cody puts it in the garbage. 


[00:24:35] And I'm, I was thinking like, let's just throw it in the dump, drive it to the dump and get rid of it. But he put it in the trash can in our front yard. Yesterday was trash day. Yesterday our truck got totaled. I just, I don't know if God's providing or if it's an attack. We're kind of in that moment where it's, are you answering our prayers to help us get a different car? 


[00:24:59] Or is this just. the culmination of a week of horrible spiritual warfare. But all throughout the week, it was, I already told you, no, stop asking me about the boxes. Just get rid of them. And I didn't get that until Wednesday. So, I don't know, like that's my example this week of God saying no. Totally different direction than I thought was going to go. 


[00:25:26] Don't know if the truck situation has anything to do with the whole mom situation. Can't blame her for my truck getting totaled by any means. It's just been a really strange week. So hearing that God said no and being able to rely on that and him like speaking to me and saying, like, I already said you had enough, stop worrying about it was very helpful to me because I feel much more peace even after having a major car accident with lots of injuries and a total truck. 


[00:26:03] Um, but if God is telling you've had enough with one person and you're like, okay, I've had enough. I don't have to stress out about this anymore. And then they poke you because that's what people like to do. And God's already said you've had enough. No. End it. Don't try to reconnect it because your emotions will get in your way of what God is telling you. 


[00:26:25] Sometimes we have to sacrifice our parental relationships. We have to sacrifice the things that we want because it's what God is telling us to do. And it doesn't always make sense and we may never have closure as kind of a non Christian. Belief in my opinion, but I don't know. God says, no, 


[00:26:43] Ben: you can go into more 


[00:26:44] Cody: detail, a little bit more. 


[00:26:46] We discussed the packages arriving and it's. dunked a high heaven of something your mother would do. And there's very specific instructions how to open them and they could take out one before Christmas, but they had to leave the rest for Christmas. And this is just the controlling nature of her mother. 


[00:27:04] So that was the first red flag. Then she started to get migraines. Migraines was in a weekly event when we were in Ohio, when we lived close to her mother. And it always happened Transcribed When we were around her mother shortly thereafter. 


[00:27:18] Gina: And these are not like just a headache. I go completely blind. 


[00:27:21] Cody: Yeah, and so when we moved to Florida to, in part, get away from that environment, her migraines started. almost stopped. Like this is the first migraine you've had 


[00:27:34] Gina: in over a year, 


[00:27:35] Cody: in over a year. And your other migraines you've had here in Florida have been after direct contact with your mom or some sort of drama that she's caused and stirred the pot. 


[00:27:47] So like migraines are almost directly connected to her mother. So the boxes being here almost pointed that it's a little bit too much of coincidence for me and I'm not a superstitious person by any means. 


[00:28:00] Gina: The kids had a ridiculous week. Just, I don't even know. It was just, it all came to me at once as I got my second migraine. 


[00:28:11] I was like, Oh, throw them away. My family can hate me. They already do. They don't understand why I don't have a relationship with my mom. Nobody believes me. My younger brother has this belief that everything was fine. Because he was younger and he's the golden child. He's the only biological child and I love my younger brother, but that's just facts and Everybody sees it and my older sibling is transgender and Not living a wholesome life and is on drugs And so they're completely unplugged from our family as well but At least an excuse can be made, Oh, they have problems and they're just living their life that they feel like they need to live. 


[00:28:58] But with me, it's like, I'm the one with kids. I'm the one that became a Christian. And it's like, I'm the bad guy. Kind of like your mom. And it's very weird because we've never been a close family. Now that I'm an adult and I'm living on my own and I have my kids Everybody wants to see the kids. I'll never understand Adults obsessions with children. 


[00:29:21] It's very strange. 


[00:29:22] Cody: I won't comment on that at all. 


[00:29:24] Gina: Why? 


[00:29:26] Cody: Just your mother's vein of 


[00:29:29] Gina: well, that's just yeah, we're not having a demon Podcast episode we're having a God says no podcast episode. 


[00:29:36] Ben: No and it to be fair You Demons and demonic influence and oppression versus 


[00:29:42] Cody: possession. 


[00:29:43] Ben: Yeah, oppression versus possession. 


[00:29:46] We kind of touched on that before. I do think there are probably going to be people listening and think, Oh, this is all very superstitious nonsense. I've dealt with enough of this stuff over my life and I haven't dealt with it a lot. But I encountered enough of it when I was very young, and I've encountered enough of it throughout my life. 


[00:30:05] to know that it's very real and it's not something you mess with ever. 


[00:30:10] Gina: God doesn't, like, God doesn't tell you not to do something because it's illogical. Like, he doesn't say, don't flap your wings and jump off the roof and try to fly. Like, he says, don't mess with the demonic for a reason. It exists. He's a God of logic and order. 


[00:30:31] So if he's telling you not to do something or that things do exist, you should take his word for it. 


[00:30:36] Ben: And to be fair, there are some people who would say he tells us not to do things like consult horoscopes and take drugs and stuff because that's damaging to us or it's illogical or irrational and so those are things we should get rid of. 


[00:30:49] And okay, that may be a fair point in a sense. But there's a reason that all mediums and spiritists and witches and sorcerers were expunged. From Israel. Yeah, that's not something that you ever want to mess with at all, and I've seen enough interviews of former mediums and former spiritualists and former witches, and whether or not you think that all these people are honest about everything, whatever. 


[00:31:17] But I've seen enough of it and seen the commonalities between all the stories to know that kind of evil is infectious. And it doesn't only affect the people who are dabbling in it, it affects the people around them. Definitely. 


[00:31:29] Gina: Definitely. 


[00:31:31] Ben: And so there's a reason why God would tell you no, and there's a reason why it would affect you, even if you're not involved in it. 


[00:31:39] Gina: Like, I, I had the conviction to not allow it in my home. And it stayed at the front porch, and then it stayed at the, in the truck, and then it came back to the front porch for a minute because we were delivering furniture to someone. But, like, under no circumstances was it to enter my house. That was very clear to me as soon as I found out they were coming. 


[00:32:00] And just knowing that they were at the front porch and having everything happen the way that it did. Oh, and I got an email from her. That was another reason why I believed that the boxes were from her. She sent me an email that was very strange. Her language was very strange. It was like talking about the divine one and stuff like that. 


[00:32:21] So trying to be cordial and loving, but like very cultish and just strange. So knowing all of the things that happened this week, I was like, there's a human part of me that was like, what do I do if I throw these away? What if there's like family heirlooms in there or something from my uncle or whatever, you know? 


[00:32:43] Cause my uncle died and it's my aunt's first Christmas without him. Maybe she's feeling nostalgic and felt like sending gifts. I don't know. I could be completely off base. And so there's that doubt in me. And God was like, you know what, if it hurts her feelings, it hurts her feelings. Like I said, no, it's not coming in your house. 


[00:32:59] You've had enough. So that's, wasn't the example of God saying no, that I thought I was going to use right now. But. It was loud, heard loud and clear, and even he agreed. 


[00:33:10] Cody: Yeah, I'm probably the least superstitious person anybody knows. Man, it's really raining. 


[00:33:19] Gina: What a beaut. 


[00:33:20] Cody: What a beaut. 


[00:33:21] Ben: What a beaut. There's a lot of benefit to having not very superstitious people, because when not very superstitious people say, yeah, something weird's happening, then you know something weird's happening. 


[00:33:30] Gina: He literally said, your mom's a demon. And I was like, I wouldn't go that far. 


[00:33:35] Cody: That was before, I didn't say she was a demon. I said she was evil. 


[00:33:38] Gina: Oh yeah, okay. And then you said she might be possessed. 


[00:33:41] Cody: No. 


[00:33:42] Gina: You did say that. I did not say she 


[00:33:44] Cody: might be possessed. I said she plays with stuff that she shouldn't. 


[00:33:47] Gina: I don't. 


[00:33:48] We've had a lot of talks. 


[00:33:49] Ben: All right. So going back to the subject of prayer. No, it's okay. This is actually good stuff. And it's nice. These are all questions that do need to be addressed. So it's best to address them as they come up. Plus this is all relevant to what's happening right now. 


[00:34:03] Gina: So 


[00:34:03] Ben: I don't think the Lord would have us be doing the podcast and then not talk about any of the things that have been happening to you. 


[00:34:09] Cody: Now your day to day doesn't matter. Stick to the script. 


[00:34:13] Gina: Listen, we wake up and we pray, we read our Bible, we're perfect. That 


[00:34:17] Cody: first 15, I do 5 minutes of prayer, I do 5 minutes of Bible, and I do 5 minutes of worship. 


[00:34:23] Gina: But I don't wait to hear if God says yes or no. No, he only gets 15. God always says yes to me. 


[00:34:30] Ben: Are there reasons for why God sometimes seems silent? We kind of addressed this before. Is it just always that he's given us an answer and we're just We keep asking, or is it that there's sin in our life that's separating us from him? Is there something more to it than that? 


[00:34:45] Gina: I really love, so I have this friend, her name's Adriana, and I went through a season last year where I was like, God's not talking to me. 


[00:34:53] Like I can't hear him. I don't know where he went. And she was like, what happens when you're taking a test? What does the teacher do? I was like, I don't know. She said, they sit silently and they wait for you to take the test. And I was like, no, I'm not being tested. Of course I was being tested. God wanted to see what I was going to do. 


[00:35:15] If I had self control, if I was going to like read his word and see what scripture says about it. Sometimes we have an answer. And it takes more than just, Oh God, put in my heart, and I'm convicted. There's actual scripture. And there's examples from God that you already have at the tips of your fingers. 


[00:35:34] And I was not pursuing that. Well, of course I wasn't hearing from God. You're smirking. 


[00:35:40] Cody: That's good advice. No, I was just thinking, the tip of my fingers. Which 


[00:35:44] Gina: is now shattered. 


[00:35:45] Ben: In terms of being silent while you're being tested, do you think there's some kind of interplay between that and the divine hiddenness of God? 


[00:35:55] That this is something he has to do in order for us to be able to choose, or for our virtue to actually mean something? 


[00:36:02] Gina: Definitely. 


[00:36:03] Cody: Absolutely. If he was with you every step of the way, I mean, which he always is, even through the book of Job, you see his presence with Job throughout everything and knowing what's going on to Job throughout everything, but if he was there nudging Job along, Every single step of the way, it wouldn't have as much weight, it wouldn't glorify God as much if Job couldn't hear from God, was lamenting and going through all this, and there's dead silence from God, but he's still turning to God. 


[00:36:37] There wouldn't be as much of an impact if God was there, like, here I am Job, I'm still with you, don't worry. 


[00:36:44] Gina: And you have to make it personal, because that's a Bible story, but like, how many people do we know who have seen, gets a choice? Whether you go to God and glorify Him even in your pain, or you turn from God and you say if God really loved me, He wouldn't have allowed this. 


[00:37:00] It's not just Job in the Bible who's awesome. It's not like that is a choice. 


[00:37:05] Cody: Yeah, so there was a moment with Ellie yesterday where I was with her, or no, was it Ellie or Shiloh? I can't remember, but we had just totaled our truck, so we were taking the kids to school, some guy pulled out in front of us, and we hit him. 


[00:37:22] Terrible wreck. Girls were terrified 


[00:37:25] Gina: all airbags out 


[00:37:26] Cody: all airbags truck and car and everything was totaled Gina was taken away to the hospital and We're just sitting there and the kids are just terrified. So after all of that calms down. I was driving and Sitting with the girls and Ellie's like, why does this happen or something like that? 


[00:37:47] And it could have been a lot worse. And I'm not trying to pat myself on the back by any means, but we have been listening to this song lately with the girls called it's a beautiful day. And it says, thank you for rain. Thank you for sunshine. I thank you for joy. And I thank you for pain. And I pointed that out. 


[00:38:07] And she's, Oh, I never thought about that. 


[00:38:09] Gina: You can make me cry. 


[00:38:11] Cody: And she's like, yeah, we're still alive. It could have been a lot worse. I could have broken my arm or, you know, I could have, my head could have been bleeding. And then she went on with this list and it was like, it just lit up in her hand and then she starts singing it like, and it was just beautiful. 


[00:38:27] But even if you're going through crap. You still have God in the end, and in that moment she got it, she's, Oh, God's still good, like, He's still got my back, I'm still here, I still have my family, and I know that's not the case for everybody, not everybody's that fortunate, but I think that's one of the main stories of Job, is even through all of the crap, God is still there. 


[00:38:52] He's not just, 


[00:38:52] Gina: He's not just there, like, He's still good, He's still perfect, He's still loving. Thank you for telling me that now. That's beautiful. 


[00:39:02] Ben: So that definitely goes to building character and loving God and worshiping him and leaning on the lessons that we've been taught. But what about when you have a genuine desire in your heart that seems like it's good, but then either God seems to be taking you away from that, or he seems to be rejecting that. 


[00:39:22] Like, why would God even give you that to begin with? Something that seems to be, that's not bad on its face, and that for many people is good. Why would he either reject that or be angry with you seemingly for having that? And then pursuing it. 


[00:39:38] Gina: Can I tell a story? 


[00:39:39] Ben: Please do. 


[00:39:41] Gina: I mean, in Genesis it says be fruitful and multiply, right? 


[00:39:45] Mm hmm. So like, we get married and I want to be fruitful and multiply and then God's like, eh, not yet. Having children was really hard for Cody and I. Didn't expect that to be a problem in our lives because I was a teen mom and didn't seem to have any trouble having children. And we had Ellie and everything was great. 


[00:40:05] It was like, ideal, perfect, like full of joy. And then she was eight months old and we started having miscarriages. And we had three of them, and then I was completely infertile. And I kept thinking, it is a good thing to want children. Like all of these pastors keep telling me this is a godly thing to want as a wife, but I just kept feeling like the answer was no. 


[00:40:30] We moved away from Ohio, and we started over in Florida, and I found some doctors who were willing to help me. But. I had to take matters into my own hands a lot to have Shiloh. I had to go on a lot of medications. We didn't do IVF, we didn't do any kind of fertility treatments. 


[00:40:49] Cody: And you were clinically diagnosed as infertile by multiple doctors. 


[00:40:53] Gina: Yeah, I wasn't ovulating at all. So it was impossible to get pregnant without IVF. Shiloh is a miracle, but I still Like looking back, I did take matters into my own hands quite a bit. I called the 12 different doctor's offices. I forced the doctor's offices to do the protocol that I thought I needed and it worked. 


[00:41:11] I had Shiloh and I bargained with God. Like I said, God, if you give me one more baby, I will never ask for another baby again. Like Shiloh's born and then she's like probably seven months old and I start wanting another baby. And it's really confusing because I promised God that I wasn't going to ask for it, but my heart wants it. 


[00:41:34] And God gave me Shiloh and it felt like that was his answer to my bargaining. And it was really confusing. I had a lot of pastors Who would tell me, like, don't limit what God can do, and don't put God in a box, and how dare you? Through Christ you can do anything, and, like, people even yelled at me, because I was like, I got my tubes tied, because that was what the doctors advised, and even though I really want more kids, it'll be okay, and I would try to kind of brush it off. 


[00:42:04] Even though I really wanted more kids, I still do. And I had so many pastors giving me confusing shame talks. And then this year I started having really weird hormone problems. And like basically my hormones have me in a weird pre menopause phase, which is basically It's like burning the city down in a way. 


[00:42:27] God, stop asking. It's done. You got what you wanted. I don't know what to tell you. And that's been like my story of, it looks good. It's in the Bible that there are women who wanted babies and they got their babies and then they lived happily ever after. And you can't really find a story in the Bible of a woman who got told, no, you can't have a baby. 


[00:42:46] But you also really don't find a story in the Bible where there's this faithful, godly woman who I, I, idolized having babies and put it above God and then got mad at God when she didn't get what she wanted and bargained with God and took matters into her own hands. And so it's all about like your real intentions. 


[00:43:04] Are you wanting that honorable thing because it's what you just want and you think it's going to make you happy and it's going to solve all the problems of your life or? Do you want it because it's honorable to glorify God through being fruitful and multiplying, which is not limited to just having children. 


[00:43:22] So I don't know if that answers your question, but to me, if you're putting what you want over your relationship with God and you're obsessing over it and you're studying having the thing that you want over having a relationship with God. He's not going to give it to you. He didn't give it to me. And he knows my habits well enough to know that if he doesn't fully take it away from me as an option, I'll keep wanting it, and it's sinful. 


[00:43:51] It's idolatry. And I fully admit that, and I have had to be very cautious with how I ask for things to God and what my intentions are, and saying no to myself, because it's not honorable. It sounds honorable, but it's not honorable. What do you think? Do you have an idolater for a wife? 


[00:44:09] Cody: I am the least of these. 


[00:44:11] Gina: We could take it Buddhist and say I am but a bug. 


[00:44:15] Ben: There is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting children, and it is true, that's part of the human imperative, that's how we continue to exist. And a big part of being fruitful and multiplying is having children. And when you look at Abraham and Sarah's story, there was a point where Sarah felt horrible about not having any children. 


[00:44:37] And then she had Abraham sleep with her slave Hagar. And then that's how we got Ishmael. And it was an attempt to try to get around what it seemed like God was setting up. And it didn't work out very well. As for your own personal story, do you think, at the heart of it, God is saying no because he has something else planned for that feeling you have, or is it that he's saying the feeling you have is wrong? 


[00:45:02] Gina: God has basically said to me, there are so many children that are on this earth, adult children of God and then just kids that are in need of discipleship, of prayer, of love, of nurturing, of whatever a mother can offer a child. I have enough. I need to be content with what he's given me in biological children and he's kind of put some different things on my radar in terms of motherhood that have been very moving and selfless. 


[00:45:41] They forced me to be selfless. There's something very gratifying about holding your own baby, nursing your own baby, just looking at this thing that You think you made, it's not, it's like you, you biologically created it, but God really created it. Right. It's very gratifying. It's very self serving, but then they get older and they turn 12 and then it's, I don't really like you anymore. 


[00:46:06] Um, and God said, first of all, that I have three sons that will marry my daughters. I've been very intentional about praying for them. Because I never knew to pray for my spouse, I wasn't a Christian before I knew Cody. I never prayed for him, and I wish I had, because he could have used my prayers. But also, now I pray for my future sons. 


[00:46:30] I also have been connected with some different people in the community that need a mother figure who, I have a girl who got estranged from her mother because she had a baby out of wedlock just like I did. And so we've been mentoring them and helping them and making sure that they don't feel alone. And that's been a form of being a mom. 


[00:46:52] We've been helping other foster families in the area take care of their foster kids and just provide like a meal or some clothes or whatever we can come up with. So God has shown me that there are honorable ways of satisfying the desire. And honestly, If I evaluate my desire, it's not, like, I want to have more children, and that's okay. 


[00:47:18] But I think I want to have more children because I had a really bad childhood, and I'm adopted, and my biological family is very dysfunctional and messed up, and I think there's a part of me that believes that if I can have this big happy family. and pop out all of these babies, I'm going to prove something. 


[00:47:37] And I don't have anything to prove. I need to prove myself to God, not to people. And just being obedient to him saying, I have children on this earth that are not okay, and you need to help them. Your kids are good. My babies that passed away, they're good. They're with him. They don't need me. These kids need me. 


[00:47:57] Whoever, He puts in my path, they need me and at the end of my life, the only thing that's gonna matter is if I showed Christ's love. And I wasn't showing Christ's love, longing for more kids. I was being very self centered and self focused and it did not serve the Lord at all. And I feel so bad for anybody that's struggling with that desire to have more kids or have any kids. 


[00:48:22] I know so many people in that weight and it's so hard and there's no promise that God is going to answer your prayer the way that you want. That's the worst. Like you can't promise a spouse, you can't promise a baby, you can't promise money. There's just some things that as like a prayer warrior, you can't promise. 


[00:48:41] Thank you so much for taking the time to listen to our podcast today. If you liked what you heard, please feel free to subscribe and share and leave a positive review. And if you would like to connect with us on social media, you can do so on Instagram and Facebook at the logic of God. You can also send us an email at main dot the logic of God at gmail. 


[00:49:03] com. Thanks again for listening. We hope you have a great day.