God Speaks to Us Through Scripture Part 2

[00:00:00] Cody: Hi, thank you for tuning in to the Logic of God podcast. I'm Cody. 


[00:00:12] Gina: I'm Gina. 


[00:00:12] Ben: And I'm Ben. If you're returning, thank you for coming back and if you are a new guest, welcome. 


[00:00:33] There's this whole movement. That is gaining a lot of speed to remove Paul completely from canonization, which I don't get in any sense, but it's also not new either. The Gnostics of Paul's time grappled on to a lot of his teaching because, as you read in Peter, His stuff is hard to understand at times, and there is a lot of mystery to it, and so they grappled onto that, and we almost lost a lot of Paul's writings in the early church because this Gnostic movement was using Paul as their ringleader, and I believe it was Polycarp had to come in and defend the case for Paul, so. 


[00:01:10] Ben: Well, a similar argument also can be made from Paul's time, oddly enough. And that when you look at a lot of the letters that Paul wrote, there were a number of different teachings that were coming forward by these super apostles. And there was claims that you needed to be circumcised, that you needed to follow Jewish law to the T. 


[00:01:28] And so you can also make the argument, well, we lost a bunch of doctrine because there were a bunch of people who believed something completely different in the early church. They believed that you needed to be circumcised and that you needed to follow Jewish law. And that it was perfectly okay for you to marry your father's wife. 


[00:01:44] And, like, that was all stuff that Paul was referencing. The reason that we use Paul as a reference to begin with is, one, because both he and Peter and a lot of early church fathers believed that he was authoritative. But also because, when you look at it, he was authoritative. He was specifically approaching a number of different issues that existed at the time. 


[00:02:06] And when we look at these issues, we don't think, well, that's perfectly reasonable that they would believe that. We think, no, it's silly that they would have believed that. It sounds cultish. It sounds like a bunch of cults were starting to try to form out of Christianity. A bunch of people were trying to take it, as we've seen in modern times, and turn it into something that it shouldn't have been. 


[00:02:23] They were trying to say, no, you can follow your heart's desire. You can do the things that you want. Or we're going to pile a whole bunch of extra rules on top of you and make it so that it's impossible for you to follow this new faith if you're a Gentile. 


[00:02:36] Cody: And like, you have a lot of these letters or epistles kind of warning against that type of teaching, or teaching that is for personal gain. 


[00:02:46] Jude, all of Jude, it's short, but it's all, like one chapter, but like, It's all about warning you against these false teachers trying to promote themselves and make a name for themselves and put them on this pedestal of the super apostles like you mentioned. So that was prevalent back then, so why not stick with the people who had Direct interaction either with the disciples themselves or the disciples had direct interaction with Jesus. 


[00:03:16] Ben: So the differences here that we're talking about aren't huge that in the end we've arrived at the same conclusion Which is that we have a bible now And that a lot of what we have in the Bible is reliable, it's true, it's good. And at the very least, when you look at the Old Testament, you say, that's pretty darn solid. 


[00:03:32] And when you look at the New Testament, you say, well, there's some stuff that we disagree on, but for the most part, there's stuff in here that we can point to and say, this is definitely something that is inspired. At the very least, the Gospels, the four Gospels, at least one of the Gospels you can trust. 


[00:03:46] Not to go too far into it, there are a lot of contextual critics. There are a lot of New Testament critics, like Barterman, and I've referenced him a few times, who try to say that there are certain Gospels, we don't know who wrote any of them, because it's not like the authorship was specifically put in them. 


[00:04:02] There's no point where, in Mark's Gospel, it says, Mark, a disciple of Peter, and a servant of our Lord Jesus Christ. Like Paul does, where he's nice enough to say, Paul, an apostle of God and a servant of our Lord Jesus Christ. They just weren't that nice. You know, John didn't decide to say, Hey, this is John writing this. 


[00:04:17] And Luke didn't decide to go, Hey, this is Luke writing this. But we know that they are the writers specifically because the early church mentions this in the first and second century specifically talk about the authorship of these books. And if we're going to hold to any kind of consistent historical analysis that we do for literally everything else, then we do have to say that, yeah, we actually know with greater certainty who wrote these than most other books that are written throughout history. 


[00:04:44] But all that is to say, we do have an agreement that at the very least the Gospels, the message that's put within them that was written by the disciples, and by Luke, and by Mark, is a solid one. That is our firm foundation. And the writings of Paul, even if you don't think those are scriptural, and if you think some of them are corrupted or whatever, those are building off of the foundation that Christ laid. 


[00:05:06] And it's the same thing that we do now, though we don't call it scripture, we don't call it canon. Is that we use the things that are revealed to us either through our personal experience through God directly through people that we know Through great teachers and we compare it to the Gospels. We compare it to the Old Testament We compare it to the wisdom that's been passed on to us And we say does this contradict or does it build on it if it builds on it? 


[00:05:31] We're great. If it doesn't get rid of 


[00:05:34] Cody: it. You say there's lots of disagreement I think we agree on that a lot more than 


[00:05:38] Ben: anything else and that's the important thing So, moving on from that, I think we should also address, why is the Bible split between the Old Testament and New Testament? I think we've kind of covered that. 


[00:05:49] Gina: I have a friend, she became a Christian like two years ago, and she legitimately believed that there were two books, and she was missing one. 


[00:06:01] It was really sweet. And then we had to talk. 


[00:06:05] Ben: God bless her. I think more or less we've covered why we have the Old Testament versus the New Testament, specifically talking about Christ. There's the four gospels, there's the epistles, and then when you have the Old Testament, it's the Tanakh. It's the three different bodies of work that are considered to be scriptural by Jewish tradition. 


[00:06:25] But I think there's another question that that kind of leads into, which is, if we are Christians, why do we even care about the Old Testament? And this is something I've heard a lot, unfortunately, in the modern church. 


[00:06:36] Gina: Oh, it's such a cool, like, if you just read it for the stories, it's so cool. 


[00:06:41] Ben: But it's the history of our, I know, but it's the history 


[00:06:44] Gina: of our world. 


[00:06:45] Like, it's amazing. I love the Old Testament. 


[00:06:47] Ben: It's amazing. It has some of the best stories you will ever find. 


[00:06:51] Gina: Like crazy mind blowing, but like also confirmed to be true by archaeology. And 


[00:06:56] Cody: still being confirmed to this day. I 


[00:06:58] Gina: know. 


[00:06:59] Cody: Absolutely. 


[00:07:00] Gina: I get really excited about that. 


[00:07:02] Cody: Yeah, I've heard this a lot in the modern church of, okay, we need to just sit in the grace of Jesus and just the, we're just going to preach out of the red letter and we're going to just stick in that, and the love and grace. 


[00:07:16] Gina: Well, so many people, like, So, we lead students, and a lot of times the Bibles that they're given is just the New Testament. And it's like you're missing so much, and they have no idea what we're talking about. 


[00:07:30] Ben: Yeah, it's the most basic question, why do we care about this Jesus? Why would we, is he just some dude who appeared at a random time, at a random place, and just Backwoods, middle of nowhere, Middle East, and was just like, Hey, so I'm God. 


[00:07:49] Okay. 


[00:07:50] Gina: Heard that before. 


[00:07:52] Cody: Do you find it a cultural problem though? Because I see the depth of ideals and the Old Testament is a lot harder to grasp. One, just cause the span of time, the culture, the ancient Near East culture, a lot of that is hard for modern Americans to grasp. So, a lot of it is confusing, I think, and intimidating. 


[00:08:15] Do you find that to be the major reason why it's kind of pushed away to the side, Christians don't need it? 


[00:08:22] Ben: Well, I definitely agree it's a cultural thing. And as with so many cultural things, I think it does come from a good place initially. It's a good thing that's been corrupted over time. So, one of the reasons that people will say that the New Testament trumps the Old Testament is, one, because there are certain things that are in the Old Testament we no longer do. 


[00:08:42] Right. 


[00:08:43] Ben: For instance, we don't keep kosher like the Jews do. We're allowed to eat pork. We're allowed to do and eat certain things that are outlined specifically in Levitical law as, don't do this. Don't eat this. Don't drink this. And a lot of people have the question of, okay. Why? 


[00:08:59] Gina: Why doesn't Cody have 75 wives? 


[00:09:02] Ben: Why? Why is Cody not allowed to divorce? And that's another thing, because there are actually some things we're not allowed to do now that we used to be able to do. It is outlined in Levitical law that a man is allowed to divorce his wife, whereas Jesus specifically says you're not. And this is a question that's brought up by the religious leaders of the time because they thought it was kind of strange. 


[00:09:22] Like why are you saying we are not allowed to divorce when it's specifically outlined by Moses? That we're allowed to. And Jesus says this was allowed to you because your hearts were hardened at the time. Which is not a super satisfying answer, but I do think that it's actually an accurate one. I think that there are certain things that were passed on because the Jews were supposed to be separating themselves from the cultures around them. 


[00:09:48] And it's pretty obvious why when you read the stories, because they didn't do that. The laws and rules were put there, the dietary ones especially, were put there to distinguish themselves from the other cultures. It was to make it so that they couldn't intertwine their cultures, their practices, their daily routines. 


[00:10:04] But they did it anyway. They would frequently stray from the things that were taught to them. They didn't eliminate the cultures and peoples that were originally in Canaan, and they allowed them to intermingle and interbreed, and eventually the cultures that were there, and the worships of the Asherahs and the Baals, they came back. 


[00:10:20] And so, frequently, Israel would stray, and then they would come back, and they would stray, and they would come back. And we look at these cycles now as Christians, and so often you think, well, these people are stupid. 


[00:10:30] Cody: We do that today. 


[00:10:31] Ben: We do that today. We're doing that today. 


[00:10:33] Cody: Yep. 


[00:10:34] Ben: You're doing that when you say the Old Testament doesn't matter, because you are missing these specific lessons. 


[00:10:40] But yeah, going back to it, we do point to those things specifically, and we say, No, those don't apply, and we give reasons for why, but it does seem to fly in the face of the idea that scripture can't contradict scripture. Ultimately, it is a fulfillment of the notion that's presented. There were logical reasons for why God told them not to eat things, not to drink things, not to do certain practices, not to eat meat that's been baked in its mother's milk. 


[00:11:05] That was specifically a Canaanite practice. It was a religious practice, and so they were being told not to participate in a religious practice. When Peter received the Revelation, which is what we base this on in the Book of Acts, it's talked about, where he was having a dream where a sheep descended from heaven Every single animal on the planet was on it, and God said, Go, Peter, kill and eat. 


[00:11:24] And he said, No, I'm not going to do anything that will make me unclean. God says, Don't call anything unclean what I have made clean. He's saying that all of creation, and it specifically spells this out in case you missed it in the book of Acts. By this God was saying that all food is kosher. The reason that suddenly there was the change is because now the Jews aren't supposed to be separated from everybody. 


[00:11:47] They aren't supposed to be in this isolated little bubble trying desperately to keep the influence of the rest of the world out. Now, they're supposed to be spreading their influence to the rest of the world. Because they have this gospel, and they can't contain it. You can't keep it in anymore. You've got to God help them if they don't spread it. 


[00:12:04] And so, if you're going to be going out into the rest of the world, can you really expect the rest of the world to obey these rules as well? Now, it's not just for convenience sake. It's because you're not supposed to be trying to keep other people out. So yeah, and it's not that's for everything, because some people try to take that, like I said, this is a corruption of something that is initially true. 


[00:12:27] We say that the New Testament trumps the old, and that there was a revelation specifically pertaining to this, and there was a reason for it. But then there are people who say, well, that also means that homosexuality is not wrong. Well, that means that I can do whatever it is that I want. Because there's grace and forgiveness, and that trumps anything from the Old Testament that says things are wrong. 


[00:12:46] I'm sure you guys have opinions on this. I've been talking for a while, but what do you guys feel about that specifically? 


[00:12:50] Cody: Go read Romans. 


[00:12:55] Ben: Man, you're on it with the one liners today, Cody. 


[00:12:58] Cody: If that's what you think, go read Romans. Let me know if you still have that opinion. 


[00:13:02] Gina: But Romans is contested. I'm kidding. But you keep saying that to him, so I just had to say it to you. 


[00:13:09] Cody: That is not one of Paul's contested letters. 


[00:13:13] Gina: As humans, there, there's always an argument of, like, where we come from. 


[00:13:20] Whether it's the Big Bang or evolving from monkeys or whatever and the book of Genesis Clearly outlines an incredibly beautiful creation story and so even if you exclude the prophecy of Jesus for a minute and you just think about like the questions that can be answered by reading the Old Testament and just like some of the amazing history about the world that has been confirmed It's so reliable and it's so trustworthy for so many different reasons, there's not a lot of question like you guys talked about earlier, and it's just rich in information. 


[00:13:59] And so, I just have a hard time believing that anybody wouldn't see value there because, When I really started reading my Bible, it was my favorite part of my Bible was the Old Testament. Obviously there are parts that are confusing and they go on and on about genealogy and how to build a tabernacle and all of that. 


[00:14:17] But it's actually like really interesting. Like Cody showed me this amazing video. And it goes through, like, the different lineages and how it actually does point to Jesus, and I'll have to, I'll have to I don't remember that one. I have it saved because I send it to people all the time. 


[00:14:32] Ben: Yeah, the, the big thing is the names, the series of names in that genealogy spell out the story of Jesus. 


[00:14:38] And that's something we'll get to, I think, in another time. Yeah. But you're absolutely right. There, there are so many beautiful stories you're missing if you decide you're just gonna pass off the old, I think a lot of people are also doing it because they just don't want to read it. 


[00:14:51] Gina: Well, they think it's, like, boring and irrelevant, and it's not actually irrelevant. 


[00:14:57] Cody: Yeah, and I do think this is more of a, an American cultural mentality, where of this opinion that instant gratification, critical thinking, like, all of this stuff is absent in our culture, right? So if you do wind up with mass genocide in the Old Testament, and you actually have to think through why that makes sense, and that. 


[00:15:19] specific cultural time and era, then you have to work at it. You, you have to do research and study and read about the culture, read about the ancient Near East and why this would be, go read about the worship of Baal and what that culture, what the Canaanite culture demanded of their worship to Baal. And you'll have more of an understanding of why, what was being asked of the Israelites Makes sense. 


[00:15:48] Ben: I think you've really hit the nail on the head there, because there are any number of contributing reasons, I think, to why a lot of Christians would like to just disregard the Old Testament. A really big one is that it's tough to look at the acts of savagery. You look at that and you think, how could that a loving God possibly do any of that? 


[00:16:06] We mentioned this briefly in how God could be good. I do think now would actually be a good time to go a bit more in depth. Because when we look. At the New Testament, you're talking about mercy triumphing over judgment. You're talking about love and grace and mercy, and that's a very comforting, nice feeling. 


[00:16:24] That no matter what you've done, God loves you. God wants you to be in his presence. He wants to bring you in like mother hen and her chicks and just gather you to him and keep you warm and keep you safe. And that's a very different view, seemingly, than what you get from the Old Testament. Amen. However, there are a couple issues with viewing the New Testament in that light. 


[00:16:46] The most obvious one is the Book of Revelation. God is still a God of judgment. He is both parts, equally good and just. In order for there to be justice, there has to be judgment. Now yes, he wants to extend mercy to everyone, but not everyone will accept his mercy, and so what mercy can be extended to those who reject it? 


[00:17:08] There is none. There is only judgment. And so, when you read the book of Revelation, you still see the same God who was in the Old Testament there. 


[00:17:17] Cody: And it's not just the book of Revelation. Absolutely. You'll get instances of this in Jude, Matthew, like, all over New Testament. The judgment aspect is in there too. 


[00:17:27] It's not just this rainbows and butterflies and hunky dory skipping through the field of daisies. 


[00:17:33] Gina: You guys didn't even talk about wrath. 


[00:17:36] Cody: What about it? 


[00:17:37] Gina: Well, God promises his wrath for those who reject him. It's not just judgment. He's not just going to sit there and be like, well, Ben, I asked you to do this and you didn't do it. 


[00:17:46] No, like it's going to be wrath and that's not fun. That's painful. 


[00:17:51] Ben: No. And in fact, we actually see some of that in the early church. There are one or two stories, one that specifically has always stuck out to me. There were a man and his wife who sold a property, kept some of it for themselves because they had the right to, and they came in with some of it, gave it, laid it at the Apostles feet and said, Hey, this is all of the money that we got. 


[00:18:11] Because they were trying to increase their standing with the Church. They wanted to look pious. They wanted to look holy. And the Apostles called them out on it. And they said, Why would you lie in the spirit? Why would you say that you've given us everything? Wasn't it yours to begin with? And immediately, both of them died at separate times, but both of them came in, said the exact same thing, and both of them died. 


[00:18:35] God struck them down. 


[00:18:36] Gina: God gave? The wife, the opportunity to come clean. And she didn't. 


[00:18:40] Ben: Yeah, Anais was the first one to die. He's like, yeah, we gave you everything. He died, and then the guys went out to bury him. His wife walks in, and then they're like, so, is this everything? And she's like, yeah, this is totally everything. 


[00:18:51] It's like, see, why did 


[00:18:53] Gina: Again, and then she drops 


[00:18:54] Ben: dead. Yeah, and then they're like, the guys who just went out to bury your husband are at the door now, and they will bury you. And then she dies. Yeah, does that sound like this fluffy pie in the sky kind of oh, no, there's no judgment ever Type of god that you're told about 


[00:19:09] Cody: no you read the teachings of jesus too, and I don't know the exact numbers, but Hell is taught on a lot more than heaven. 


[00:19:19] And if you know anything about hell, it is not cuddling and Clapping and playing the banjo. Yeah, like it it is Although maybe the banjo is torture. Separation from God that is not depicted as a pleasant experience. No, it isn't. I do hear that all the time and we should admit the, there's the God of the New Testament and the God of the Old Testament. 


[00:19:43] I've heard that a lot and it's No, there's just God. It's the same one, you're just failing to see that. 


[00:19:48] Ben: Yeah, and just as there are examples of God's Wrath and his judgment in the New Testament, though they don't seem to be quite as abundant as his love and his mercy. In the Old Testament, while it seems like there is a lot more examples of his judgment and wrath, there are plenty of examples of the same love and mercy. 


[00:20:08] There's mercy that's given to Cain, a guy who murders his own brother. God gives him time after time, chance after chance, the ability to come clean. Rather than taking his life or making his life hell, He allows him to go live off in the land of Nod. He gives him a mark so that no one will kill him. Why on earth would he do that? 


[00:20:26] Cody: For a guy who murders his own brother. 


[00:20:29] Ben: Sounds pretty darn merciful. 


[00:20:31] Cody: And most cultures of the time, and most, a lot of people even today, like, eye for eye mentality, that's not eye for eye. 


[00:20:39] Gina: Well, I, I wonder about that specific story, and I haven't researched it enough to feel confident. But, I've always wondered if. 


[00:20:48] It was more merciful to kill him than it was to make him go away and labor. 


[00:20:53] Cody: I wouldn't say so, but he went on to make a thriving city. So 


[00:20:58] Ben: Yeah, he had kids. He had a wife. I don't know how many wives if he had multiple, but he did end up with A family and a city and who is Cain's wife? Good question. No, that's a, that's a question specifically for analyzing Genesis. 


[00:21:13] There are a lot of people who wonder if it's history or not, if it's meant to be some kind of allegory or magical poetry that doesn't actually mean anything. We'll get to that, I think, because Genesis definitely deserves its own specific episode. We're 


[00:21:29] Gina: inviting Ken Ham, right? Yeah. We 


[00:21:30] Cody: only if we get one on the other side. 


[00:21:32] Yeah, you better 


[00:21:33] Ben: invite us. We'll do the ARC experience. 


[00:21:39] Gina: We'll live in the ARC. 


[00:21:40] Cody: Only if we catch Bill Nye there at the same time. Going back to it. Getting 


[00:21:46] Ben: back to the purpose of this episode. 


[00:21:47] Cody: Yeah, we covered the different rules. I think we went off a little bit on that one. 


[00:21:52] Ben: So let's quickly cover, is there a specific order that these things should be read in? 


[00:21:57] Because they are out of chronological order. 


[00:22:00] Cody: Some of the prophets are in chronological order. Yes, 


[00:22:03] Ben: you are correct. 


[00:22:04] Cody: But yes, the Bible as a whole is not in chronological order. You can buy Bibles that are in chronological order, but is it important to read it 


[00:22:12] Ben: in that way?

[00:22:13] Ben: Yeah, I guess the question is, what would you guys recommend? 


[00:22:16] Or rather, let's, because I don't think it matters too much what order you read them in. I do think some people recommend that you read the Gospels first, that you get an idea of who Jesus is first. Build a foundation and then go back. Because there's some folks who will start in Genesis, and then, okay, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers. 


[00:22:33] What is this? What is this book? Why am I reading this? I'm bored out of my skull right now. There are numbers in this book. There's so many numbers in the book of Numbers. I actually like the book of Numbers. What is wrong with you? 


[00:22:49] Cody: There's a lot of good stuff in Numbers, but no, so I would agree. The gospel is probably good. 


[00:22:55] Honestly, the New Testament, I think reading that in its entirety before moving on to the Old Testament is good. And then it'll make the second read through of the New Testament open up a lot more because the connections that. The New Testament has to the Old Testament and all of, and I think it's a popular picture going on around right now, they did a huge cross reference of every New Testament verse in scripture to the Old Testament and just makes this amazing rainbow and all that stuff looks pretty. 


[00:23:26] But I think getting the foundation because we live in a post Christ world. You need to get that foundation and understanding of why we are clinging to that hope and faith in that, rather than the history portion of how we got there. But then go back, read the history. 


[00:23:47] Ben: Yeah, I think that's a pretty good recommendation. 


[00:23:49] What about you, Gina? 


[00:23:51] Gina: I'm in agreement, but I would also say that if you've never read the Bible before, especially the New Testament, then you have to know that different authors wrote the same stories sometimes. And so you have different perspectives on one thing that happened with Jesus, and you hear it or read it multiple times. 


[00:24:11] And I didn't understand that when I first started reading my Bible, and I wish somebody had explained that. And then he did explain it, but It made it confusing, because I was like, why is it so repetitive? 


[00:24:24] Cody: Yeah, you have the first three Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, that are synoptic Gospels that kind of basically follow the same timeline. 


[00:24:33] There's slight variances, there's slight more depth in a certain story than others, but for the most part Pretty similar you can track along with each one where they're at and John's a little bit different kind of follows some of that kind Of doesn't it's more his own telling the gospel of John But yeah, I might even start there because after the Gospels you get into a lot more of the heavy doctrinal beliefs of Christianity and that might be a little much for New believers like reading 1st Corinthians or Ephesians Ephesians, 


[00:25:08] Gina: was hard for me as a believer because of the call to like obey your husband like the first explanation that I had of Ephesians was at your cousin's wedding and your grandpa was preaching about how she needed to submit to him and I was like, oh Oh, heck no. 


[00:25:24] And then I caught the bouquet and I was like, this is not happening. 


[00:25:27] Ben: Yeah. Real quick, since you brought that up, I do think that's actually something worth looking at while you've mentioned it. I do understand. It's not quite in line with the general idea of this episode, but you brought up something that I do think a lot of people do struggle with and it, it's. 


[00:25:41] In a sense, it does lend itself to what people think is canonical or scriptural versus what isn't. What's Paul's opinion versus what isn't. And I think there are a lot of women specifically in the church, with good reason, who struggle with what Paul writes. Because it does seem like Paul is taking women and is saying, you are beneath men. 


[00:26:00] Gina: But he's not. 


[00:26:01] Ben: No, he's not. 


[00:26:01] Gina: Yeah. 


[00:26:03] Ben: I don't know if you guys have any input on this that's particularly unique. 


[00:26:06] Gina: I just want to point out that tomorrow's our anniversary. 


[00:26:08] Ben: Congratulations. 


[00:26:10] Gina: I have a lot of opinions on women in the church. And for any women that are listening, because I don't want Anybody to think that this is a male dominated podcast. 


[00:26:20] And I also ask a lot of questions with new believers in mind, but I have done a lot of my own research and I'm actually in seminary. So that's not to toot my own horn. It's just, I kind of know what I believe. And as far as women in the church goes, I think the modern American church has infantilized women to a point where women don't believe that they can be doctrinal powerhouses and they can't say what they know to be true from scripture and study. 


[00:26:45] And I don't even think they're encouraged to study, really. We're given a lot of books written by famous people, but we're not really turned to our Bibles. And I think there's a lot of power in scripture for women. Specifically, women who have pasts. I have a past. I didn't come into my marriage as like this innocent flower that was handed off by her dad. 


[00:27:04] My dad didn't even come to our wedding. So when I think about marriage and when I think about God's plan for me as a woman, I looked to Song of Solomon. There, everybody talks about that book like it's the porno in the Bible, and it's not. It's beautiful and it is erotic, but there's a lot of like, empowerment for women in that book? 


[00:27:25] Coming into marriage, hearing about Proverbs 31 and submitting to your husband is intimidating, but in Song of Songs, you hear, like, this woman is crying out. She's got this dark past. She is a different color than she should be because of all of her labor and toil. And she was not taken care of by her family the way that she should have been, and God accounted for that in Scripture. 


[00:27:47] And the first thing that the husband does is call his wife powerful and then encourage her to go out and deal with the issues that are plaguing her. Like women are empowered in Scripture, especially by their husbands, to deal with issues and to work hard. And just because we're called to respect and obey our husband doesn't mean that we're supposed to be individual from them, as these burdened, silent, non voiced, People that just sit in the background, we're encouraged to have healing and to have opinions and to challenge our husbands when they're not doing the right thing. 


[00:28:20] So, I don't know. That's my little spiel. But I definitely want women to know that there is powerful representation for womanhood and femininity and scripture, and it is not entirely based in honoring and submitting and respecting, although those are important things. That's not the entire identity of women according to the Bible. 


[00:28:39] Cody: There's a lot on that. I hear, I love your take there too, but I also hate hearing guys of they're not loving to their wives or they're not respectful to their wives because they don't submit, or you have this mentality. When that was written, and for some reason, they'll look into that context of how women were property back then, or they'll look at David and Solomon, oh, they had 700 or 400 wives, and times were different, and if we got back to that time, it'd be better, everything would be hunky dory and smooth, but the issue there is, one, you're looking at that as a huge issue. 


[00:29:19] Prescription rather than a description, but also not getting the full context of that, of what Paul talks about, and the whole idea that we're supposed to treat our lives like Christ treated the church, if you want a good comparison of that, you can also back that up with Hosea. And how Hosea is treated, and by his wife, that represents the Israelites, or the church. 


[00:29:45] So you can look that up, but it's this constant back and forth of, the men are the ones reaching out and supposed to be taking the first step of submission and mercy and grace and all of this and leading by example and even in Ephesians 5, the idea of the man Or, to be like Christ, is we're cleansing our wives and preparing them to be blameless to God. 


[00:30:10] Like, that is one of our major responsibilities, too. My whole objective in life, as a husband, first and foremost, should be my wife's salvation and where she's at with God. 


[00:30:22] Gina: You got me. 


[00:30:24] Cody: You 


[00:30:24] Ben: dumb. Congratulations. 


[00:30:28] Gina: And I'm sorry if I offended anybody by the whole porno comment, but like, You know what, we don't talk about it, we don't teach on it, it's just there. 


[00:30:36] Ben: There are a lot of things that exist in this world that are not brought up by the church and they need to be brought out into the light. And Lord willing, we're going to approach a lot of those over the course of this, uh, this podcast for as long as we do it. But I do think you brought up something very important there with that comment, Gina, in that there is a fear to say certain words and to breach certain topics. 


[00:30:57] And when we talk about darkness in the world. A lot of the times pastors will say, Our children are facing a lot of conflict. What conflict? Well, just conflict! General hard stuff. It's tough. And temptation. Oh, that 


[00:31:16] Gina: temptation. That 


[00:31:17] Ben: darn temptation to what? It's tempting. It sure is that stuff. We don't talk about homosexuality because it's not in vogue anymore. 


[00:31:26] People will get offended. You don't talk about transgenderism now. It's We don't talk about pornography. We don't talk about sex and it creates this bizarre world. And even just bringing up song of Solomon, like you just did. Yes, it exists. 


[00:31:40] Gina: I have to add like we as parents protect our children, but we also want to model healthy love and we kiss in front of our kids. 


[00:31:50] We hold hands like we are affectionate with each other and God has a plan and a purpose for all of the physical contact between men and women 


[00:31:57] Cody: within the confines of how. God designed it, there is nothing wrong with it, and it shouldn't be shied away from. Correct. Going back to 


[00:32:04] Ben: Song of Solomon, that's all it's about. 


[00:32:06] Yeah. 


[00:32:07] Ben: It's, yeah, yeah, God's mention, but the focus is specifically about amorous love. And it's confusing. 


[00:32:14] Gina: Like, I, Had to pray multiple times reading through it before I finally understood what I was meant to understand at that time. Because I used to get angry when I read that book, because it was like, he's comparing her to goats, and it's just weird. 


[00:32:29] Ben: Teeth like little sheep. Boy, is that a pickup line if I ever heard one. So appealing. 


[00:32:34] Gina: But I read it last summer for, just with new eyes, and I It was the most empowering scripture I've ever read, as, like, a wife and a mother. Because I have so much in my past, that I, it's like a little fox. It's sneaky, it sneaks in, and I'm encouraged by scripture to go out and catch those little foxes that ruin our vineyards, and that's exactly what it's talking about. 


[00:32:59] It's not a real fox, it's your baggage. 


[00:33:02] Cody: Well, this leads into the next question pretty well, and I'll probably get Burned at the stake for saying this, but I actually like reading the poetry books and the passion version of the Bible. So, okay. 


[00:33:16] Gina: Babe. 


[00:33:17] Cody: No, I'm not ascribing to KJV only here, but that brings up, how did we get the modern translation of the Bible? 


[00:33:26] Ben: We've kind of addressed it one way or another, there are people who talk about the Council of Trent where there was a split between the Catholics and the Protestants, and they incorporated the Apocrypha at that point. Prior to that, the Apocrypha wasn't considered to be scripture. We kind of treaded this ground already. 


[00:33:42] It's pretty easy to see that very slowly over time, different books came into the canon. And that's very easy to see for the Old Testament especially, since we both have the work from the Jews and the acknowledgement of Christian tradition to compare it to. So, leaving aside the Apocrypha, which I think we can do pretty certainly, yet we know pretty darn sure how and why and when the Old Testament came into being. 


[00:34:05] There is more debate about the writings of the New Testament. At the very least, we can say that the Gospels themselves are solid. 


[00:34:13] Cody: There's a lot of heat on Mark right now. 


[00:34:15] Ben: Yeah, everyone But it's 


[00:34:16] Cody: because it's one of the older written ones. Yes. 


[00:34:19] Ben: You tackled that. Yeah, typically it's acknowledged that Mark is the earliest gospel, and it was written anywhere from between one year after Jesus death to ten years after Jesus death. 


[00:34:30] Generally it's accepted that's the timeline. Some people say it's like twenty years after. There's almost no example of any document of that time. An antiquity that was written 20 years after something. It just didn't happen. Especially by someone who was there for it. Or who was there talking with someone who was there for it, because Mark wasn't actually there, he was a disciple of Peter. 


[00:34:50] Anyway, the point is that we have a pretty strong certainty of what books were considered scripture by different people at different times, and it all lines up fairly well. When you look at what the early church fathers wrote, setting aside the Apocrypha, they pretty much agreed that the writings of Paul were scriptural. 


[00:35:05] The writings of the disciples, the original disciples, were canonical and they were scripture. So that's more or less how it happened. It was slowly over time and then it was through the acknowledgement of the church, the early church specifically for the New Testament, where Paul was writing and then he would send writings off to the various churches, to the churches in Ephesus, Thessalonica. 


[00:35:25] Colossi, and then those letters would be sent to other churches. And Paul referenced some of his letters in other letters, and then there were disciples who would reference his writings in their stuff. We talked about Peter briefly. But yeah, that was basically it. It was a web of connections, both between the Old Testament and the New, specifically for the New Church. 


[00:35:43] And eventually, they believed that was enough, that the writings of Paul and the writings of the apostles was it. And also Hebrews, which may have been written by Paul, but we don't know. So, there's some people who contest whether or not Hebrews should even be in there. That one I understand because we're not sure who wrote it. 


[00:35:58] But when you look at what's in Hebrews, it doesn't really, it doesn't strike me as someone like a cult leader who's trying to elbow his way into the early church. 


[00:36:06] Gina: I actually like Hebrews. Yeah, Hebrews is a good book

[00:36:08] Cody: I do too, but that's for reasons that are not here. But like, it doesn't, like Hebrews, you're not getting any specific doctrine straight out of Hebrews that wouldn't be found in other Gospels or Letters or Epistles. 


[00:36:25] Like, you're not. And it's the same with, like, James is highly debated because everybody says, Oh, it's a work based salvation, but well, no, not really. But it's highly debated for that reason that it goes against the doctrine of salvation through faith. Jude is the same way, not in the sense of what it attacks, but it is in question, but you're not getting any. 


[00:36:47] specific doctrines from those books. 


[00:36:50] Ben: Now, and I think a lot of the arguments come from personal reasons, like a lot of it does, because you're right. When people look at James, like, Oh, it's a workspace theology. Well, no, you're extrapolating that you decided that's what he's talking about, because you want to not have to do anything. 


[00:37:05] Exactly. And all that James is doing is he's addressing what Paul has written, because a lot of people, just like Peter said, take it and run with it. And he's like, just hold on a second. If you really think about it. If you could do literally whatever you wanted all the time, what's the strength of your faith? 


[00:37:21] Your faith means nothing. Your faith should produce something. It is the fruit of the tree. And so if your life doesn't have works to show for your faith, then obviously it's dead. Obviously it's meaningless, and look at this in your own life. For those of us who've had families where we had mothers and fathers who were present, for my family especially, because they were both loving people, and they were both Christians strong in the faith who were involved in my life, if I disobeyed them constantly, they would forgive me, they'd still love me, but my relationship with them would be horrendously strained. 


[00:37:53] And if I went around telling everybody that I was super amazing and awesome because I loved my parents and my parents loved me, but I was constantly spitting in their faces and disagreeing with them and never doing anything remotely close to respecting them, what's the value of that relationship? 


[00:38:10] Cody: Well, and I'd have to argue, and I can't remember, it's not a quote of my own, but You only believe what you act out. 


[00:38:18] Yeah, you're right. Like, if you're saying you believe the Bible, but you don't act it out, you don't believe it. 


[00:38:24] Ben: And even setting that aside, what about James specifically do these people disagree with? His whole commentary about taming the tongue? Is that wrong? Oh no, we should just be able to say whatever we want? 


[00:38:35] Seriously? 


[00:38:35] Gina: Yes. No consequences. 


[00:38:37] Ben: Oh, and no consequences. Hashtag no consequences. 


[00:38:39] Gina: And my feelings matter. I'm sorry. 


[00:38:42] Cody: No, seriously. Go for it, Judah. And like, that doesn't connect to Proverbs, like Proverbs talks about saddling the tongue all the time. Like, so like, where are you getting this independent doctrine that is also not backed up by other scripture? 


[00:38:56] Mm hmm. As well, so. 


[00:38:57] Ben: And that's truly the beautiful thing for me, setting aside the analysis from other sources and what the early church fathers would say about it. Looking at it through our own eyes. When I read the New Testament, just like when I read the Old Testament, I see a ton of beauty in it. I see a lot of true wisdom. 


[00:39:15] When I similarly look at stuff like the Quran, I don't see it. I don't see the same beauty. I see a guy who's making stuff up or a guy who's schizophrenic and crazy because I see a lot of crazy when, if I were to tell you as a woman, Gina, that you, if a man is going to stay in this house. You need to breastfeed them 10 times. 


[00:39:33] Gina: Peace out. 


[00:39:34] Ben: Yeah, It doesn't make sense.

[00:39:36] Cody: I have to buy a goat. 


[00:39:37] Gina: Well, like, does that make me his mother? 


[00:39:40] Cody: That’s the idea. Your family. Yeah. That's why I think Freud would love this argument. 


[00:39:45] Ben: It's like, yeah, when you look 


[00:39:46] Gina: Absolutely not. 


[00:39:47] Ben: When you look at the writings of other things, there's a really big movement now to try to say that there's wisdom in all these different religions. 


[00:39:53] And when you look at it, what they're actually trying to do is take the stuff that sounds the most. Like the stuff that Jesus taught and they say, look, it agrees. They'll take the quotations from Muhammad about don't getting angry, saying it three times. And not taking revenge. Stuff that was abrogated out in the early portions of the Quran. 


[00:40:15] That no longer applies, because it's early, and the stuff that comes later completely erases the early stuff. But yeah, a lot of Muslims will take that stuff and say, see, he talks about mercy, and about justice, and about kindness. And all this stuff lines up with Christianity and what Jesus taught, so obviously it's true. 


[00:40:33] And the Eastern practices and religions, a lot of the The Hindu practices that are coming over to the U. S. now. They approach it from, very much from a, well look at what Jesus said, look at, we all take, everyone loves Jesus. Everyone's trying to take him in and insert him into their works and try to interpret them in a way that works with the gospel. 


[00:40:52] Gina: But it's deeper than that. Yeah, 


[00:40:54] Ben: it is. Because 


[00:40:54] Gina: people say, well, it's not hurting anybody, so it's okay. That's what my mom says. All the time. It's light. It's okay because it's light. I'm not doing the dark stuff. I'm doing the light stuff. Satan masquerades as an angel of light. If you think it's light, test it against scripture and then tell me that it's light. 


[00:41:10] And don't just test it by saying, okay, it matches. Like take it all the way back to context. Take it all the way back to what they were living in. In that era that they were living in, because it doesn't usually actually match up. Just because you have the same words doesn't mean it's saying the same thing. 


[00:41:25] Ben: And when I read James, and when I read Paul, I see actual people. I see people who've been put into situations they didn't ask for, and there's a lot of crazy stuff happening around them, and they're doing their best with what they've been given. And they're struggling, and they're hurting. But, just like you and me, if we were suddenly given a revelation from God, how do you think we would react? 


[00:41:48] We'd be like, I don't know what to do, I'm confused, I'm scared, God help us if this is wrong! And Paul says that, he's like, Heaven help us if this all turns out to be wrong, we're the most to be pitied. It sounds like a guy you could disagree with if you want to, but he sounds like a guy. And when I read Muhammad, when I read Buddha, when I read all this other stuff, they don't seem like real people. 


[00:42:09] They seem like made up people. They seem like people whose words have been given some kind of legendary mysterium. 


[00:42:16] Cody: Oh, and they're written in the description, and, like, I can't remember the exact literal terminology, but, you know, this, like, kingship. Authorship type where you know, that it's always embellished to make them look good. 


[00:42:29] You don't see that in the Bible, like, no, Paul admits 


[00:42:32] Gina: that he's messed up. Yes, he 


[00:42:33] Cody: does. Yeah. Talk about a more confusing, just jumble of, 


[00:42:39] Gina: I do what I want to 


[00:42:40] Cody: do, but 


[00:42:40] Ben: don't do what I ought not do. That's, I feel like at times during this podcast, I've come across that way. Oh, yeah. And that's, it's real. It's a guy who's confused and he's conflicted and he's scared. 


[00:42:53] And he's like, yeah, I don't know. Like there's stuff I know I should be doing, but I don't do it. But I want to do it, but I don't. I relate with that. Yeah, I relate with that. 


[00:43:04] Cody: I don't relate with the perfect idea of a lot of these other deities or The harder ones, the Abrahamic religion, is a lot harder, I think, to attack and pick out. 


[00:43:18] And the Greek and Roman mythology, like, everybody's of the same opinion, and they keep trying to put Christianity in that, and it's failing because the history of it, the consistency of it, and it's not, there's not embellishment in the Bible. You don't, what, what king comes, dies. Is made fun of, mocked, 


[00:43:43] Gina: Spit on and murdered. 


[00:43:44] Spit on 


[00:43:44] Cody: and murdered for our benefits. 


[00:43:48] Ben: Like, where do you see that anywhere else? You're absolutely right. And there are individual stories told in the Gospels whose details, they match the way I would describe something if I saw it. So like, there's the part where there's the woman who's about to be stoned because she was an adulteress. 


[00:44:03] And she's brought forward and the religious leaders think they're setting a really clever trap for Jesus. He's like, so should this woman be stoned? Because they don't have the authority to execute people. So if he says yes, well, they're going up against Caesar. They're going up against the Roman authority. 


[00:44:15] If he says no, he's going against the law, which is God's law, which is the highest law. And he bends over and starts writing down something on the ground. 


[00:44:25] Gina: Oh, I wish I could have been there. 


[00:44:27] Ben: Yeah, we don't know what he said. We don't know who he was writing it to. We don't know why he was writing on the ground with his finger. 


[00:44:33] He wrote something down with his finger. It was probably for the woman. And it's probably only something she saw. But everyone got impatient and they're like, okay, answer us. Are you buying time or what? And he's like, well, you're right. But whoever's guiltless cast the first stone and everyone just kind of stood around looking at each other, like. 


[00:44:52] I guess we go home now and slowly one by one, everyone left until it was just him and the woman. And he gets up and looks around because Jesus is a funny guy. When you really look at, I didn't use to see this, but he looks up. It's kind of sarcastic. He looks around and he's like, is there anyone else? And the woman's like, no, it just you and me is like, then I don't condemn you either go and sin no more. 


[00:45:16] And then that's it. That's it. 


[00:45:20] Cody: We've talked a lot about the Islamic religion, and one of their biggest polls is that the Bible is not correct because of all of the translations that have happened. Does translating the Bible create misunderstandings and errors, or are they completely off base with that statement? 


[00:45:42] Ben: So I wouldn't say that it creates errors necessarily. 


[00:45:46] Because you actually encounter a similar issue if you don't translate. For instance, there's a bee attitude, The meek shall inherit the earth. The word meek has a very specific modern context. Meek is the correct Greek word, it's just it meant something different to the Greeks. And so if you don't translate that into something that modern people will understand, which is, essentially, those who have swords and are skilled in their use, but choose to keep them sheathed. 


[00:46:10] That's essentially what that word meant. So think about that for a second, how drastically different an idea that is. Those who are powerful 


[00:46:18] Gina: I'm shy or I'm powerful. 


[00:46:19] Ben: Yeah. I am powerful but choose to restrain myself. I will inherit the earth. Versus, I'm just kind of shy. I don't do much. I don't get out. I don't get out. 


[00:46:28] I don't talk to people. Whatever you want to do 


[00:46:31] Ben: earth is mine. Yes. Because God's going to give it to me. So yeah, in that sense, if you don't translate it at all, or provide some measure of explanation, people will get the wrong idea. But, when you do translate things, there are certain things that just don't translate very well. 


[00:46:47] And so, it is incumbent on us to go and do our best to read through a lot of the analyses to try to get some context for what was. And Oscar Wilde, I never thought I would reference Oscar Wilde specifically in this kind of thing, but Oscar Wilde in De Profundis specifically talks about going back to the New Testament and reading it in Greek. 


[00:47:08] And he talked about how incredible an experience that was, and how different it was, and how much more character He got, and how much more meaning and how fun it was for him to read it in the original Greek. And when you look back, there was a lot more teaching of Greek, of Biblical Greek, way back in the day. 


[00:47:24] So that people could read the Bible to get a more clear viewing of things. I feel like we, we kind of approach the Bible with a lot more laziness today. We just kind of want everyone to have done the work for us so we don't have to go and learn Greek so we can read it ourselves. Much less Aramaic. Gotta help you if you try to learn Biblical Hebrew. 


[00:47:42] We know 


[00:47:42] Gina: somebody who just learned. Albert. 


[00:47:45] Cody: Oh, he learned Aramaic, yeah. 


[00:47:47] Gina: And Biblical Hebrew. He's 


[00:47:49] Cody: taught Biblical Hebrew for a while. 


[00:47:51] Gina: But he just learned Aramaic. 


[00:47:53] Ben: Good for him. But yeah, it is one of those things where you are best served if you put effort into it. And you may think that's unfair. You may think that's not right. 


[00:48:03] How could God do that? Doesn't that mean that the Bible is fundamentally flawed? This is a horrible way to learn. Well, when you really look at the teachings of Christ, He taught in parables. He told people things that they didn't understand to begin with. And He had to explain to the disciples after the fact. 


[00:48:21] We haven't gone anywhere. We already, from the original stuff, if you knew all the original context, if you knew biblical Greek, and if you knew the cultural context, you would still be confused. It took effort. It took wisdom. It took understanding to learn and understand the Bible to begin with. And if people of the time didn't understand what Paul was talking about, If they were already misconstruing it and deciding that they were going to follow Apollos, or whoever else, or the super apostles, Yeah, you can bet that you're not going to understand either. 


[00:48:51] So, that's my take on it. Translating the Bible, yes, it does lead to some challenges, but it doesn't make it any less worthwhile. In fact, in many ways, it makes it more worthwhile. When I learned that thing about meekness, like, there are typically the areas where there's going to be conflict or issues, you can see them. 


[00:49:08] When you read, okay, the meek shall inherit the earth, what does that even mean? That should set up red flags immediately. And when you learn what it, there, there's another part where it talks about turning the other cheek. It's like, okay, so I'm just supposed to lay down and let this stuff happen. No, that's not what it's talking about. 


[00:49:24] No. If someone strikes you, their hand is on the other side of your face and there is the back hand. You turn your cheek so that they have to hit you properly. You are challenging them. You're saying, no, you just disgraced me. You insulted me by hitting me with an open hand. I'm going to make you hit me properly. 


[00:49:44] I can take more than what you are giving me. Roman law said you're only allowed to make a person go one mile. You take them two miles. They're going to try to torture you. They're going to try to do the max that they possibly can do. No, you're going to take them for a walk. Christianity is a fighting religion. 


[00:50:01] That's what C. S. Lewis talks about. It is a fighting religion. Jesus isn't teaching you to lay down. to take whatever it is that's given to you. Now, there are going to be times where you fight. There's another passage where Jesus specifically talks about how it's okay to defend yourself. He talks to the disciples and says, If you don't have a sword, sell your cloak, buy one. 


[00:50:20] I'm not going to be here soon. You have a right to defend yourself. But what he is talking about there is that there are going to be times where someone does violence to you. You don't simply lay there and take it. You take them further. Not that you take the violence further. But you let them know that you can go farther. 


[00:50:35] That you're not going to take what they're doing lying down. If someone insults you, if someone Let's say that you're a missionary and you're going out in the middle of nowhere and there are a bunch of people showing violence. You don't run, you don't leave, you don't simply sit there and take it. There was a point where Paul was being stoned, and he was thrown out of the city, and he was near death. 


[00:50:51] He shakily got up. Everyone thought he was dead. He's like, oh, no, I'm okay. And then he goes straight back in and he starts preaching again. That's a guy who has a spirit of fighting inside of him. He's got a fire in him, and that's what we should be. So yeah, that's what I get from a lot of this. Is that, no, it's not that the Bible's corrupted because he translated it. 


[00:51:09] And there was a fear for a long time. That was gonna happen, but ultimately what ended up happening was that there were a lot of people who just said, Look, I'm the one who can read the Bible. You're gonna have to just trust me. And they became the Bible, and they treated themselves as God themselves, as royalty. 


[00:51:26] And that's ultimately what ends up happening, and that's not what God wanted for the Bible. So, I don't know what your guys opinions are on it. I've gone a little farther than I probably should. 


[00:51:33] Cody: No, I mean, I can't, I don't disagree with that at all. I waffle between how Roman Catholics handled the Bible early on, and then the need for Reformation. 


[00:51:44] Sometimes you wish the people who don't do the work to study the Bible, don't have access to it just because of the poor doctrine that they spew. But it's easy to defend that from your own personal standpoint and speak against it in an honorable way as well. I do agree in what the Reformation did and the Bible to the modern people, but it does get frustrating when people constantly use it out of context and get this name it and claim it mentality, but behind the Bible and use that to push self motivated means. 


[00:52:16] Ben: How often have all of us at one time or another believed something, and now we've changed because we've read the Bible, we've grown in our understanding of it. If we approached it as, we need an authority to just tell us what to believe, we wouldn't grow. All of us have changed our beliefs at one time or another because our understanding has grown. 


[00:52:32] And maybe our understanding was right then and now it's wrong. Maybe we'll end up going back to what it was. But I know that my stance on homosexuality has changed a lot because it was initially influenced by culture. And I thought, well, grace and love and peace and mercy. And it's okay, whatever. And then you read Romans chapter 1. 


[00:52:50] And you're like, well, okay, this is incongruous. Either I change how I feel about it, and then you start to explore why. That should be what these things prompt you to do. Ask why. It doesn't 


[00:53:01] Gina: change the fact that you are obligated to show love. 


[00:53:05] Ben: Yes. 


[00:53:06] Gina: And respect and mercy. But it also doesn't excuse the fact that that is a sin. 


[00:53:13] Ben: Absolutely, 


[00:53:13] Gina: just like beating your wife is a sin just like all the other sins are named in the Bible. 


[00:53:18] Ben: We don't conform to the patterns of this world. We are transformed by the renewing of our mind. If you don't allow yourself to make mistakes, you're not gonna grow, 


[00:53:26] Gina: right? 


[00:53:27] Cody: No, and that's one thing that we try to promote on the podcast a lot is like, don't take anything we say for it. 


[00:53:33] God, no. I'm probably wrong about a lot of stuff that I say on the podcast, and you need to confirm this. for yourself and let us know where you think we're wrong too because that's an open discussion where we would love to have that type of back and forth and communication because we're all in this together at the end of the day trying to grow and our ultimate goal should be to build each other up and not tear each other down. 


[00:54:04] Gina: Thank you so much for taking the time to listen to our podcast today. If you liked what you heard, please feel free to subscribe and share and leave a positive review. And if you would like to connect with us on social media, you can do so on Instagram and Facebook at the logic of God. You can also send us an email at main dot the logic of God at gmail. 


[00:54:26] com. Thanks again for listening. We hope you have a great day.