God Speaks to Us Through Scripture Part 4
[00:00:00] Cody: Hi, thank you for tuning in to the Logic of God podcast. I'm Cody.
[00:00:12] Gina: I'm Gina.
[00:00:13] Ben: And I'm Ben. If you're returning, thank you for coming back and if you are a new guest, welcome.
[00:00:29] All scripture is God breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness. So that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. That's 2nd Timothy 3. 16 17.
[00:00:44] Ben: So it looks like actually earlier I was referencing the same verse because I'm a dummy and I don't remember all the verses.
[00:00:49] But, yeah, even if you don't say that that word is God breathed, if you were to cut that first part out and you read the rest, it is still referencing Scripture as authority.
[00:00:59] Gina: Right, but I think the biggest, like, argument that people come to me with about God breathed is whether or not the words in the Bible were written by God's hand through a man or written by a man about God.
[00:01:15] And so I kind of want to know if in that era where scripture was written, God breathed means that God literally breathed the words onto the paper, or if, you know, that's just
[00:01:28] Ben: Well, from the verses that I quoted earlier, as well as the stuff from the early church fathers, it's pretty clear that they considered scripture to be God breathed, that they considered it to be the literal word of God, and not just something that some teachers taught, because that is the early church fathers.
[00:01:43] For whatever reason, we decided that there was a cutoff. Just like with the Old Testament, they decided that there was a cutoff. The Apocrypha was written during a time where, in Maccabees, they talk about how, and Josephus talks about how, during that time, God was silent. Why would they talk about God being silent if he's talking all the time, or if he never talked?
[00:02:02] If they never considered any of those things to be scriptures, why would they bother saying that God was silent? So, at the very least, we know that there is scripture. It's incumbent on us now to find out what is and why, and Now, I do understand the struggle there because, just because something says that it is, there are a lot of people who've claimed that they, that they have scripture.
[00:02:26] The Jehovah's Witnesses, the Mormons of the world, the Muslims, they all claim that they have something, that have authority that transcends the testament that we've been given. But there are a few practical tests. For one, when you actually read the New Testament, do you get the sense that it's lying to you?
[00:02:45] Gina: No.
[00:02:46] Ben: In fact, I don't meet many people who do, and the people who argue with it, typically it's because they don't like what's being said. They feel convicted by it. They feel angry by it. But even if we were to say, okay, we don't really know. We don't really know if all these things were written by Paul.
[00:03:02] When you read them, do you get the impression that this is something completely made up? When I read, I mean, I talked about this, breastfeeding a person ten times, when you read that stuff, it sounds made up. When you read that the sun sets in a muddy puddle, when you read that a baby is just a blood clot that forms in the back of the base of the mother's spine, when you read all this stuff, it sounds like a guy who's crazy and making it up.
[00:03:27] When you read the New Testament, it sounds like people who are talking. And that's an important distinction, because yes, there are people who are always talking about things anyway. And when you read things now, there are people who are genuine and talking about various things. But the important thing here is that these people were being killed and hunted down for the things they were talking about.
[00:03:47] If they were just making it up, why do people make things up? Generally, when you're starting a cult, and let's say that they were trying to start a cult in ancient Palestine. Yeah. And they were trying to expand it out to the whole world for some reason. When you look at most of these people, what Muhammad did, what Joseph Smith did, what a lot of these different people did.
[00:04:05] They were doing it for money, they were doing it for women, they were doing it for fame. The disciples didn't get any of those things. Paul especially didn't. He gave up his social standing and a significant stipend that would have come with it in order to be an apostle and a disciple of Jesus Christ.
[00:04:22] And so when you read the things that he's talking about, he sounds like a man who has conviction on these things. Doesn't mean that he's correct. But he has conviction on it. He genuinely believes the things he's saying. And if it's a person who's counterfeiting or doing some kind of weird historical fiction, he's doing a pretty good job of it.
[00:04:40] Because it still sounds like him and it still sounds authentic. And that form of fiction didn't exist at the time.
[00:04:47] Gina: Thank you.
[00:04:48] Ben: No problem. What do you think, Cody?
[00:04:50] Cody: To go off of what Ben said is a lot of people even today, even if they don't believe in the Bible, will admit that there's a lot of good teaching or a lot of good inspiration or Jesus was a prophet or most people don't reject the ideas of the Bible.
[00:05:06] Most people affirm that, especially for the time, it was very productive and promoting a much healthier and better lifestyle than what was offered at the time and still today. So it's hard for me to believe that it wouldn't be in some form God breathed at that point.
[00:05:29] Ben: Yeah, I think ultimately the really big point that we need to hammer home here is It's not the words themselves that save, it's the meaning behind them.
[00:05:39] If I were to talk to someone specifically about Jesus, and I say, For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, and I go through that whole verse. Or, I go up to a person and I say, Hey, God loves you so much, he sent his son. And if you believe in him, you won't, you won't suffer eternal death, but you will have life forever.
[00:06:00] I've said the same thing twice. Thanks. I didn't quote the Bible word for word the second time. I abridged it. Is the truth behind those words the same one that saves? Yes. So the question is, is it really important to you that the words be exactly the same as they were when they were first written? Or is it the meaning behind the words that's the important thing?
[00:06:19] And that wasn't specifically the Gina that's broadcasting it. No,
[00:06:21] Gina: yeah, well, we have some friends that are like very, when we talk to them about like inerrancy, they get very upset and it's like they've based all of their faith on the foundation of, you know, Biblical inerrancy and the Bible kind of being God instead of God being God.
[00:06:41] And so, I really like what you just said because if we get obsessive about what version we're reading or like the specific, reciting instead of relationship, I think we kind of missed the point. So my next question is Is inerrancy the same as infallibility?
[00:07:04] Ben: I suppose it depends on what you mean by both of those words, Adelina.
[00:07:07] Gina: I have the dictionary definition. Inerrant is containing no error. And infallible is incapable of error. Are they the same? When talking about the Bible.
[00:07:22] Cody: You would have to define error. Like, like Ben is speaking here. Is it the meaning? Is it the meaning? Is the original meaning still conveyed?
[00:07:32] Ben: Well, so yeah, I would say, there was someone who once said, The Bible is not inerrant, but it contains no error.
[00:07:41] And what he meant by that is that there are individual spelling mistakes or errors in the oldest versions. The random guy from the middle of nowhere who wasn't super literate, but he kinda knew Greek, and so he was copying it down as best as he could. When he's copying that down, he's not copying it down perfectly.
[00:07:59] And you can try to make the argument, okay, well it was Paul's original, or it was Luke's original, or it was Mark's original, Matthew's. Like, whoever wrote the original, uh, That was an errand that contained no spelling errors that contained no punctuation errors. They didn't really have punctuation either, but whatever.
[00:08:15] Like, there were no actual errors of any kind. I don't know, maybe, but we don't have those. But we have our copies of that. And that's, that relies heavily on the copier. But, I would say very much the same thing. I would say that yes, there could be a spelling error. I found a spelling error once in one of my NIV Bibles like forever ago.
[00:08:34] I was so excited. I'm like, yay, I'm so smart. I found the spelling error. I found the spelling error and it's so amazing. This guy saw it. This guy saw he was smarter than me, but he didn't know I was going to be reading this. Yeah, I found it one time. Congratulations to me. Does that mean? No, it doesn't mean that the whole Bible has fallen apart because I found a spelling error.
[00:08:53] The meaning is still there. That's the point. It is not an errant. It contains no error. If it makes a statement of truth, that statement of truth is correct. If it says that something happened, that thing happened, and if it says something about you and about the state of humanity, that thing is true.
[00:09:09] Cody: The point Gina is making is I know a lot of Christians who hinge their belief on absolutely.
[00:09:17] Perfect. Like, it's perfect in every way. And they'll get around it, well, okay, this has, you can point out the different grammatical errors, and they'll be like, well, the originals, the autographs don't have any errors at all in them.
[00:09:33] Ben: It's like, okay, maybe, but that's not what we're reading from today. It's like, sure, you can make the argument that the original originals were so divinely inspired they didn't have any errors at all.
[00:09:42] We don't know. Maybe. But what we have now is not that. Because what we have now is written in English.
[00:09:50] Gina: Well, and so like one of my other questions that's tied into this is, can the Bible still have authority while also having errors or the possibility of errors?
[00:10:02] Ben: Well, so yeah, it does ultimately depend on what you mean by error.
[00:10:05] So going back to your other question, I would say that the Bible is infallible. Not inerrant. And by not inerrant, I'm specifically talking about spelling mistakes or grammatical mistakes or whatever. Mistakes that ultimately don't really matter. Mistakes that don't take away from the meaning behind the words or the phrases or the sentences.
[00:10:22] Like I, see, it might, I probably should have said way far back ago, but my feeling on it, biblical inerrancy, is that The original statements that God made to these people who wrote down the Bible are inerrant. They are 100 percent true, regardless of what it is that he said. That those statements were put down accurately by the people who received them.
[00:10:45] And that meaning is still preserved today, regardless of whether or not you have odd spelling errors or whatever. So that's my feeling on it.
[00:10:53] Cody: So recently there was for the longest time, I think Luke quoted this city. And for the longest time, nobody believed this city exists. So they believe Luke made an error in that point.
[00:11:06] And if you died before the discovery of that happening, you died, believing that there was a geographical error or writing like, and again, it's. It's not doctrinal or anything consisting that, but do you think even that error, even if it was true that he misquoted a specific location, would that cause the whole faith to fall apart?
[00:11:29] Can that be allowed and still have authority?
[00:11:32] Ben: Well, even not going just with Luke, when you look at 1 and 2 Kings versus 1 and 2 Chronicles, there are points at which the numbers of things don't quite add up. And that's in part because the original written Hebrew didn't have vowels. And so they had to add vowels as time went on.
[00:11:48] And so certain things kind of were transcribed weirdly, because when you get into thousands versus thousands of thousands, things are kind of touch and go. It's not 100 percent certain what all of the numbers exactly meant. Now, for the most part, they know. And we're pretty certain what they meant. The original things we're supposed to say, but when you read these things, there will be that little B or that little A or whatever, and then you look down in the footnote, and it'll say, it'll say, some people translate this to mean whatever.
[00:12:16] So, I can't remember the exact examples of that, but I do know that there were a couple of numbered examples, so it's a very similar idea. Does the exact number of chariots that Solomon had If it turns out that he didn't have quite as many, that it's a thousand less, or a thousand more, or a hundred less, or a hundred more, is that super important?
[00:12:36] My assertion is that the original thing that was put down was true, and maybe there was a spelling error somewhere in here, something that changes things slightly. And we know that there are spelling errors because we have copies of the different parts of the Bible going back for thousands of years. So we know that at some point, spelling errors happen.
[00:12:53] But I don't think that spelling errors or transcription errors ultimately take away from the meaning behind the words.
[00:12:59] Cody: What about, so I think another popular one is the height of Goliath. Yeah. So some texts have him still tall for today's day and age at like 6'11 or something like that. And then some have him, I think, what is it, nine feet or something like that is the general consensus.
[00:13:20] Does something like that being an error, what if he actually was only six foot 11 at the time, would that be a huge issue or?
[00:13:29] Ben: Again, the meaning behind that story, when you really look at it. Everyone was terrified of fighting this guy, and they were It's not the number that refers to his height. A lot of the times people will question these things just because they can't possibly imagine it.
[00:13:42] There's one of his brothers that's referenced later. There's an Egyptian that also was like close to 10 feet tall, who had 10 fingers and 10 toes. I'm sorry, sorry, six fingers on each hand and six toes on each foot, so twelve fingers, twelve toes. It
[00:13:57] Gina: could just be because brothers and sisters married each other back then, I don't know.
[00:14:01] Ben: Who knows? But the point is that there's, that line that Goliath specifically had, his family line, was indicated to be pretty exceptional, let's say. It was not normal. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And everyone was terrified of fighting him, and they referenced the the weight of his ma of his armor, they referenced the size of his sword, they referenced the size of his spear.
[00:14:23] So even if they get the his height slightly off, where he's just really tall for that era, but still within the realms of feasibility, the size of his armor, like the weight of it, and the size of his spear, and the size of his sword, indicate that he's a very h ridiculously strong person. So no, I would say that even if the height is slightly different, no.
[00:14:42] The meaning is still there.
[00:14:44] Cody: No. And I absolutely agree with you, but for some of these. Issues, you see a lot of Christians doing mental gymnastics trying to explain infallibility and inerrancy as absolute perfection versus just accepting that there could be different errors in text, but the meaning behind it is still 100 percent truth.
[00:15:08] Ben: Yeah. And even if we grant that there's the occasional spelling error that we know that the stuff has been preserved absurdly well. Beyond what any other book that I've seen so far in history has been able to be preserved as. With the number of copies that we have, and the state of the copies, and the fact that they were so far spread for so long, and yet there weren't hardly any dramatic, in fact, there weren't really any dramatic changes between them.
[00:15:33] Cody: Yeah. And the inaccuracies are drastically outweighed by what has been found and authenticated and verified. Like, so the inaccuracies that are available, it's a verification of what it says and what is actually there is much outweighs those.
[00:15:55] Gina: Well, I have two more questions.
[00:15:57] Cody: Go for it.
[00:15:58] Gina: Okay, so this stood out to me as kind of an interesting aspect of inerrancy because the 1978 Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy was supposed to be a response to non literal interpretations of the Bible.
[00:16:15] So, if 1, 000 years to mankind is like a day to God, can we accept that all schools Scripture is at its literal face value, or does the issue of inerrancy lie within non literal interpretations of Scripture? So basically, if we believe in like a seven day creation or a non seven day creation, does it impact the truthfulness of Scripture?
[00:16:41] Ben: Well, do you want to tackle this one first or should I?
[00:16:43] Cody: When you get into the creation story, it's hard to use that text to verify the other 'cause they outline one day as a day a day. So that that's a little bit more difficult. Do
[00:16:56] Ben: I think the general idea is that because we can interpret some things as metaphorical or non-literal, how much of the Bible should we interpret at face value and how much of it should we say is meant to be poetry or metaphor?
[00:17:09] Cody: Yeah. What is allegory and what's literal?
[00:17:12] Ben: Well. There are parts of the Bible where it's very clear that it's not meant to be taken literal. We are not literal salt, but we are called the salt of the earth. We're not a candle under a basket. God doesn't transform us into a candle and then someone doesn't put a basket over us.
[00:17:27] And there are parts where Jesus will use things like exaggeration. He says, whoever doesn't hate their mother or father. He doesn't, the conscription of Jesus is not to literally hate. He's essentially saying that you do have to act in such a way that it seems as if you hate this person. It, it, with, with what we were talking about earlier, who, if you love your mother or your father or your sister or your brother more than me, you are not worthy of me.
[00:17:52] If you live your life pursuing Jesus, you're going to do things that seem cold. Like, let's say that there's a whole bunch of people who get really angry at us for doing a podcast, and we do, we say, state something that we believe to be 100 percent true and backed by the Bible. And people get angry at us, and then they come and they try to destroy this home or something.
[00:18:12] If you were to continue on doing this, and telling people what you genuinely believe, that would seem heartless, because you're putting, you're putting your wife, you're putting your husband, you're putting your children in harm's way by talking. And all you have to do to keep them out of harm's way is to not talk.
[00:18:29] To not say what you believe. But God help you if you don't. God help you if you don't speak your, what you genuinely believe. God help you if you, we are compelled to do it. That's what Jesus is saying. You are going to be compelled to speak the truth. And in doing so, you're going to do things that will seem to be heartless.
[00:18:47] Putting God before your family will seem heartless to the world, but it's what we have to do. So I do think that there are a lot of the stuff where people are talking about metaphor, like, I know that, let me see. Genesis is actually just a metaphor, you see, and it's obvious, and I don't know why it is, that so many people don't believe that it's all metaphorical and poetic.
[00:19:08] You see, it's very simple. You see, all the ages that were given are actually representative. And there was a lot of that. And they do use that verse specifically that you quoted, Gina, the a thousand years are like a day. They say, well, it's, it's all, it all means it's all, as long as it means something, it has to be meaningful.
[00:19:28] It's all very meaningful. More often than not, the Bible actually makes it pretty clear if what you're reading is meant to be taken literal or not. And there's some of it that's actually lost in the translation to English. I can't remember who it is exactly, but there was actually a Hebraist who set up a very complicated program specifically to see how much of Genesis could possibly be construed as poetic, because there are certain tenses, certain conjugations, certain words that are used in a poetic sense, specifically dedicated for that, and certain column structures that are set up specifically for poetry, which we don't have in English, but it's the, it was the, the practice of the Jewish writers at the time.
[00:20:11] And that was to make it abundantly clear what you're doing is poetic. And when he set up his program specifically to search for all the different conjugations and all of the different words and ists and whatnot that you would use specifically. For a poetic language is basically none of that found in Genesis.
[00:20:28] And even if you weren't going to go that crazy and do an alphanumerical investigation analysis into the Bible, what you can do is you can say, okay, so how exactly is this written? And you actually read it. And when you read the Old Testament, Specifically Genesis, the Genesis account we'll go with. There is a lot of it that does seem poetic.
[00:20:48] It does seem like it's got a style to it, a rhythm to it. And there was evening and there was morning and there was evening and there was morning. It's almost a mystical quality. But as you go through it, you see that there are very specific details that are given. You're given the age at which Adam had his first son.
[00:21:05] And you're given the age at which his next son was born. The one that wasn't able, had his son. And you're given the, like, yeah, the age at which Cain had children, but also the age at which Seth had kids. Going all the way down, you have the list of the Patriarchs. When they were born, the age at which they had children, the age at which they died.
[00:21:25] And, it's very specific, down to the year, for both. And you're given measurements for things. You're given the measurements of the Ark. You're given the number of animals that were put on, more or less. It's not as if they give us the specific number of species that were put on, but you're given a rough idea of how many animals were put on and you were given the size of the Ark and where exactly it was.
[00:21:47] You're told where it took off.
[00:21:49] Cody: It's in Kentucky.
[00:21:50] Ben: Yes, they did build it.
[00:21:52] Cody: Ken Ham is Noah?
[00:21:54] Ben: I don't think he used the royal cubit. Yeah. Bruin, get Dr. Ham with me on the phone this instant. I will, I will chew his ear off, sir. I will give him an earful. Not using the royal cubit. What's wrong with him?
[00:22:09] Preposterous. Preposterous, I say! I'm going to build an ark specifically to compete. It shall be in Florida, and it shall be on the water. Not building an ark on the water. What's wrong with you, Dr. Ham? Dr. Ham. But, sorry doctor, if you end up listening to this, I don't know why you would, but if you end up listening to this, we love you, it's okay.
[00:22:29] Gina: We love your arc.
[00:22:30] Ben: We love your arc, and you do a lot of good work. But, a lot of the times when you see the stuff that people are trying to dismantle as poetry, They're trying to diminish it, because they're trying to make it fit within the box that they've created, rather than trying to orient themselves around the things that are written.
[00:22:48] I don't think it's nearly as much of a mystery as a lot of people try to make it out to be. I do think it's actually pretty clear most of the time. That said, there are some times where it's going to be a little bit ambiguous. The Book of Job, for instance. We're not certain if that's meant to be history or not.
[00:23:04] It does seem like they lean towards that being history, but we're not a hundred percent sure. I
[00:23:09] Cody: mean, maybe, isn't it in the poetry books are listed in the poetry books. It is written
[00:23:16] Ben: in the writings, in the talk. It's still considered scripture, the que. So the meaning behind it is still true, and I agree with that.
[00:23:23] The meaning behind it, no matter whether or not it's literal or not. It is true, but it's a good example. Yeah. But it's still surrounded by other books like Esther that are, I mean, yeah, Esther is definitely something that happened. It's treated as history. They have Purim specifically celebrating it. But yeah, the point is that there are instances where there's some question.
[00:23:44] But even in those instances, like, for the most part, we know what the Bible is saying as history. And if you don't trust it to be history, then fine. That doesn't change the fact that it's stating it as history.
[00:23:56] Gina: So, is understanding the Bible as literal or metaphorical a contingency of salvation?
[00:24:07] Ben: No.
[00:24:08] Gina: What about belief in the doctrine of biblical inerrancy?
[00:24:12] Ben: No. That's probably going to ruffle some feathers there, and to be fair, I'm open to having my mind changed on that, I really am. But, I don't think Like, first off, if a person is like, yes, for the most part, I do believe in everything that the Bible says, but I'm just not 100 percent sure that all of it has been perfectly preserved.
[00:24:33] Is God going to send a person to hell for that? No, I don't think so. And that would technically be someone doubting inerrancy. If you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and you believe in your heart, God will raise him. God raised him from the dead. You shall be saved. I don't believe also that God is going to throw someone in hell because when you get up to heaven, he's going to say, Hey, Did I do it in six days?
[00:24:56] How many days did I do it? I think this is something that reasonable people can dispute. I think Dr. William Lane Craig and Dr. John Lennox are both very godly men. And they've done so much for the faith. And they've dedicated their lives to God. And they love the Lord with all their hearts. But they believe that Genesis is not literal.
[00:25:16] Okay, like, this is something we can talk about. And they have their reasons for it. I I, for the life of me, I don't understand some of Lennox's reasoning behind some of it. But I get it. I get why they have the feelings that they do, because they're men surrounded by academia and they think that they, that there's stuff that is unquestionably true in the scientific community and they're trying to reconcile what they know to be true in the Bible.
[00:25:39] And they're saying, well, as long as the meaning is still preserved and the meaning is what's important, assuming that the meaning is actually still saved if you say that it's not literal. No, I think we all are wrong about individual pieces of doctrine. I guarantee you all three of us are wrong about individual pieces of doctrine.
[00:26:00] Guaranteed. 100%. And seriously, if you guys think that we're wrong about something, please let us know. I guarantee you there's plenty of um, actually's in the, that we're going to get. Actually, there's only 22 books in, in, in, in, uh, Talaq, not 24. I know you said both 22 and 24, it's definitely 22, because you don't know what you're talking about.
[00:26:22] I guarantee we're going to get something.
[00:26:23] Gina: Also, don't take our word for it.
[00:26:25] Ben: No, please, don't take our word for it. We're sitting here talking off the cuff, it's very conversational, and we do that intentionally. We're going to get things wrong, and we do hope that you guys call us out on the things that we do get wrong.
[00:26:37] Gina: And gals.
[00:26:38] Ben: We
[00:26:39] Gina: have a seat at the table, Ben.
[00:26:41] Ben: Fine. I'll allow it. But the Gospel of
[00:26:45] Cody: Thomas says that Jesus will change you to a man. Praise the Lord! So you can make an intent. I did not
[00:26:53] Gina: expect you to say that.
[00:26:55] Ben: Gospel of Thomas for the win.
[00:26:57] Gina: Didn't he also describe Jesus as a baby with birds or something?
[00:27:01] Ben: Like murdering them.
[00:27:03] Lots of, lots of wonderful things, Thomas. Thank you so much. We were all so bored with our initial stories about Jesus. We're getting so tired of it. You really spice things up, buddy.
[00:27:15] Gina: There's gonna be someone like me listening that's like, what's the gospel of Thomas? I'm missing something.
[00:27:20] Cody: The gospel of Thomas is heresy, so just don't worry about it.
[00:27:25] Throwing that out
[00:27:25] Gina: there. Just throw it in the trash.
[00:27:28] Ben: As well as the gospel of Judas. And Mary Magdalene. There we go. I saw three ships come sailing in. But yeah, just to bring us back. Now, I don't think you have to have 100 percent correct theology. If you believe that, then there's only going to be a handful of people you're going to meet in heaven.
[00:27:45] Because if your denomination that you happen to belong to is the one denomination that happens to have everything correct, you're going to be very lonely in heaven. It's you and your church, and maybe your dog.
[00:27:55] Cody: But Joe at church, I don't know if he's coming.
[00:27:57] Ben: I don't, God bless him, but I don't think he's got the right theology.
[00:28:01] Cody: He raises his hand when we sing, I don't know if that's allowed.
[00:28:05] Ben: Anything higher than hip high ain't gonna fly. You keep those hands down.
[00:28:11] Gina: We don't do that here.
[00:28:12] Ben: Yeah, but what do you guys think?
[00:28:14] Gina: I think one of the most beautiful things about the Christian faith is the fact that we can sit down and disagree and have a discussion.
[00:28:20] I've read so many different books on women's ministry, some which believe women should absolutely not be pastors, and some that believe that women should be elders. And we're not. Whether or not I agree with any of those things is irrelevant because I've learned so much from those teachers. They are highly educated.
[00:28:37] They are just like really wise people. Even if their doctrine or philosophy or interpretation is a little bit funky, I still love learning from them because I get to see the other side. And if we don't, as a culture, practice critical thinking more, then we're failing ourselves. We're missing so much of the richness that God has for us.
[00:28:57] If I were to sit here and blindly say the Bible is It's completely inerrant, and I'm just living on this word, and I don't even really know what it means, and what the history of this doctrine is. I'm kind of blindly going into something that, like, Cody has this saying he says all the time, like, anti intellectualism is anti Christian.
[00:29:17] If I'm not going to study it, and I'm just going to, like, adopt it, then, like, why?
[00:29:23] Ben: What do you think, Cody? No, not at all. Preach it, brother.
[00:29:28] Cody: No, not at all. Another thing that comes into this is if you think the Bible is the answer to everything in this life, which I think the Bible answers that question as there is mystery that is left to God.
[00:29:41] So it is not going to be 100 percent figured out in this life, even if we could, because there's mysteries that we're not even going to be able to know. So If knowing everything and accepting that the Bible knows everything, or teaches you everything,
[00:30:04] Gina: The Bible is not God.
[00:30:06] Cody: It is not. And that, that is one of my problems with some of the biblical inerrancy doctrine that is taught, is it raises the Bible to the third figure in the Trinity, and most of the time replaces.
[00:30:24] The Holy Spirit, the, it is divinely inspired, but it is not part of the Trinity.
[00:30:32] Ben: Well, addressing that just a little bit. If, uh, if Gina were to write a letter to somebody, like, she were to have a pen pal in Romania, and she just sends off letters. Bear with me here. If Gina were to have a pen pal in Romania, and she's just sending off letters to this Romanian person, and this Romanian person kind of gets to know Gina through these letters, never actually met her, but is reading the letters, and eventually, after reading these letters, this person is like, You know what?
[00:30:57] I hate Gina. All that they've gotten of Gina is these letters, but these letters are containing your words. They're containing meaning. They're containing something of you. And so, are they hating the letter, or are they hating you? Because all they've done is read letters. Are they hating the letter, or are they hating you?
[00:31:14] Gina: This is hard, Ben, because I met my husband on the internet. We wrote each other a lot of letters and decided we loved each other.
[00:31:22] Ben: Did you love the letters he wrote, or did you love him?
[00:31:25] Gina: Him, but I understand your argument.
[00:31:28] Ben: Yeah now to to a degree. I still agree with you. I think that The Bible is not completely good.
[00:31:35] You can worship the Bible. You can actually worship the church. I think there's a
[00:31:42] Ben: big thing with a lot of different denominations where there is a dedication to the denomination a dedication to the church itself But not a dedication to Christ And so you can fall in love with the structure of the church.
[00:31:55] You can fall in love with the history of it. I actually see this a lot with Catholics. I do apologize to any Catholics who are listening to us, but I do see a lot of this. Where they fall in love with the structure, they fall in love with the order, with the music, with the history. And, it's not, God kind of falls to the wayside.
[00:32:11] And similarly, I do think that it's possible for someone to fall in love with the Bible itself, to fall in love with the words, but to never truly know God, to know the God behind the words. So I do agree with you to an extent. But, I don't think that it's possible to really know God without the Bible.
[00:32:28] Right. Agreed. No, I agree with that. I think it's an incredibly important tool, and I do think it does contain His words. And if you reject the words, you reject the man. You reject the Almighty. So, I do understand to an extent why we elevate it. In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God, the Word was God.
[00:32:47] The Word became flesh and dwelt among us. I think, God's words are incredibly important because they represent him and if you do love his words you do love him. But if you fall in love with, I do think this does come down to inerrancy, where people are like, no, it's the individual words. You don't even understand, man, it's the words, man.
[00:33:09] It's like, the words are perfect, brother, you don't even know, man. I do think there is some of that, and I do think that has led to a lot of bridges being burnt, to a lot of things being said that people regret, and ultimately to a lot of focus in an area that could be better spent into learning what we're supposed to know from the Bible.
[00:33:32] Trying to discern the meaning, rather than trying to discern whether or not the individual words are perfect. Yeah,
[00:33:39] Cody: no, that's what I was trying to say. I got you. Yeah, I do. I do think the Bible has very high value
[00:33:45] Ben: Great that wonderful. Yeah, but Same, are you sure Gina?
[00:33:50] Gina: Uh huh.
[00:33:51] Ben: Are you sure
[00:33:52] Gina: I read it and I love it.
[00:33:53] Ben: That's
[00:33:53] Cody: great
[00:33:55] Gina: So do you want to touch on authority or did we already do that?
[00:33:58] Cody: I mean, I think just the topics that we, what we covered, the historical backing of it, the, the way that it was canonized, the inspiration behind it all lends to the authority of scripture and why it is authoritative. And any of the points, punctuation errors does not take away from that authority because of the foundation that.
[00:34:21] That it has that we just discussed.
[00:34:24] Ben: I do think that there probably is one more question. And this is just something I've thought of that we can end with.
[00:34:30] Gina: Yeah.
[00:34:30] Ben: But I do think it is a proper ending. How much weight should it have in your life?
[00:34:35] Gina: Should what have in your life?
[00:34:37] Ben: The Word of God, the Bible. How much weight, how much of your life should you base specifically on what you read in the Bible?
[00:34:45] Gina: I would say that the leadership of the Holy Spirit is an active 24 7 reality for Christians. And that leadership is needed for me to read the Bible and interpret it for myself. And I say that because every time that I read certain books of the Bible, I learn something new. So, without the Holy Spirit, scripture is just paper.
[00:35:15] I can't really comprehend or change without the intercession of the Holy Spirit. And so, I don't know, it's hard, like, we have, I think I have to, we have to have the Holy Spirit's influence. In order to really comprehend what we're reading. So, I want to base my life and my morals and my values on scripture, but I'm helpless to change or to act it out without the Holy Spirit.
[00:35:46] Does that make sense?
[00:35:48] Ben: Well, so, how much, so, assuming you have the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit does show you what's written in the Bible. Are you mainly using the Bible to find the things that the Holy Spirit wants to tell you, or are you searching outside the Bible? Like, how much of your life is spent poring over the Scriptures specifically to find things, versus trying to find new experiences and things that aren't specifically in the Bible, and letting the Holy Spirit teach you through those?
[00:36:14] Gina: Well, Scripture is a guide for our lives. I believe God's expectation that scripture is what we use to live our lives out as a Christian. I mean, it preserves so many stories that are necessary to our faith, including accepting Jesus as Lord and acknowledging his death and resurrection for the forgiveness of our sins.
[00:36:32] So like a hundred percent, my life should be based around the Bible, but like without the relationship aspect with God and the Holy Spirit. I'm completely helpless to understand it or implement it.
[00:36:46] Ben: What do you think, Cody? About how much of your life should be dictated by the Bible? How much of your life should be, like, how much are you drawing from the Bible generally?
[00:36:56] How much authority does it have over your life?
[00:36:58] Cody: As far as authority, at the heart of the issue, Or, like, everything is filtered through what I've learned through the Bible. So I'm going to test anything, like you mentioned to her, extra biblical readings and stuff like that, is all going to be filtered through the Bible.
[00:37:16] And I wouldn't base any of my doctrines outside of what is in the Bible. It can be edifying, but not a basis for doctrine. If that makes sense. Bye bye. But, you know, as far as the definition of canon being like the measuring rod and all of that, like, I do think that's your starting point, what everything should be filtered through.
[00:37:40] If you are struggling with a certain topic or aspect, you need to test it against what the Bible says. If it's outside the Bible, scripture interprets scripture, so you can use that foundation. But, if you're getting materials outside the Bible, I think that's your starting point. I had
[00:38:01] Gina: a friend describe the Bible one time as like a colander that you drain pasta in.
[00:38:06] And like if it's junk it just falls through. So I like that you said that. It's your filter. And my verse for that is Philippians 4,
[00:38:15] Ben: 8. What does Philippians 4, 8 say?
[00:38:17] Gina: Like whatever is true and noble and lovely and worthy of praise. Such things. Think
[00:38:24] Ben: about such things. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:38:26] Cody: What about you? I agree. I agree.
[00:38:29] I agree. All of it.
[00:38:30] Ben: All of it. Whatever you guys said, man. All of that was No, I think you both are absolutely right. I think when you become a Christian and you feel the presence of the Holy Spirit Not everybody does when they first become Christians. But I agree. There is a presence in your life that you start to feel.
[00:38:49] You start to feel there are things you ought to do. And you're constantly going back to the scripture, or you should be going constantly back to the scripture, to find out what those things are. To find out the reasons behind those things. And, When you trust the scripture completely, and I think one of the reasons inerrancy is such a big thing for so many people is because it's so hard to trust something with that degree of certainty.
[00:39:14] No matter what your opinion is on inerrancy, you have to trust the Bible 100%. This won't work unless you do. And when you do give yourself wholly over to Christ, and when you truly commit to learning the Bible, learning what it says, using it as the measuring rod for your life and for the other truths that are constantly forcing their way into your life, you're going to find that everything starts to make a lot more sense.
[00:39:38] And you're going to find that there's a whole lot you need to cut out of your life. And so, there are things outside of the Bible that make their way in, obviously. I mean, not every single movie or book you read is going to be biblical. It's not all going to be filtered through Christianese and have Jesus as the, the goal, the man on the top of the mountain at the end of every story.
[00:39:59] But, you're going to find that certain things you really enjoyed, certain people you like to be around, suddenly you don't want to be around them or you don't think you should. And so, you're going to find that certain things you really enjoyed, certain people you like to be around, suddenly you don't want to be around them or you don't think you should.
[00:40:08] And that's because, biblically, there are warnings about being around certain people, about consuming certain things, about being in love with the world a little too much. I think the Bible has immeasurable wisdom when it comes to most subjects. It's not going to teach you literally every single thing possible there is to know.
[00:40:26] I think Cody's correct. But it gives you the firm foundation from which you build. It gives you a foundation from which you will learn about God. And you will filter other sources through to see if they're true. So, yeah, I think that the Bible has absolute authority over your life. And you shouldn't be looking to your church or to leaders of any kind, including people who claim to represent the Bible specifically.
[00:40:50] You shouldn't be looking to anything else specifically to control your life, aside from the Bible itself. Because only God's Word can be trusted to do that. Agreed.
[00:41:02] Cody: Very well said.
[00:41:03] Ben: Well, you both said it a lot better than me, so.
[00:41:06] Gina: Yeah. Read your Bible.
[00:41:08] Ben: That's the sum of it. Just read it. Just read it. It's actually really fun.
[00:41:12] Gina: Not a book about it. Not someone who claims to be an expert. Not us. Read your Bible. Thank you so much for taking the time to listen to our podcast today. If you liked what you heard, please feel free to subscribe and share and leave a positive review. And if you would like to connect with us on social media, you can do so on Instagram and Facebook at the logic of God.
[00:41:37] You can also send us an email at main dot the logic of God at gmail. com. Thanks again for listening. We hope you have a great day.
