Was Jesus God? Part 2

[00:00:00] Cody: Hi, 


[00:00:10] thank you for tuning in to the Logic of God podcast. I'm Cody. 


[00:00:13] Gina: I'm Gina. 


[00:00:14] Cody: And I'm Ben. If you're returning, thank you for coming back. And if you are a new guest, welcome. All right. 


[00:00:31] Ben: So we've covered miracles at this point. We've covered the Bible. We've covered a lot of ground. But even taking all that into account, how do we actually know that he rose again after he died? Because the disciples could have lied about that. That is a potential explanation. And it's not exactly a horrible one, because if you look, there have been a number of instances throughout history where there have been claims made about people, and legends have formed around people a significant amount of time after their death. 


[00:01:01] So is it possible that Jesus death and resurrection was a legend that grew up out of time, or something where very early on the disciples were like, no, we're going to lie about this, and we're going to do it to gain fame and to gain power? 


[00:01:15] Gina: Well, they all got very rich and did wonderful, fun things for the rest of their lives. 


[00:01:19] Oh, 


[00:01:20] Ben: absolutely. They were living it up. Yeah, I hear John got a nice oil bath, like a really expensive oil bath. 


[00:01:28] Cody: One 


[00:01:31] Gina: of them was crucified upside down, I think. 


[00:01:33] Ben: Yes, that would be Peter. 


[00:01:34] Gina: Yeah. 


[00:01:35] Cody: Yeah, all but one of the disciples died a martyr's death. A lot of the early church fathers that were taught by the disciples themselves died a very gruesome death. 


[00:01:48] Polycarp was boiled alive inside of a brass bowl or, I don't know, the metal, but just in his book of martyrs. I 


[00:01:59] Gina: don't see that being a logical argument. They did it for fame. That's like, you're going to lose everything, your family, your belongings, your prized possessions, your identity, everything. Because you've made up a story, and you're going to be tortured for it. 


[00:02:18] And everyone you love is probably going to be tortured for it. But it's worth it, because it got you attention. 


[00:02:25] Cody: And that's where a lot of the historic writings on this are unique, because most people didn't write about themselves in a negative light, especially early years. And you get to see this mental issues that they had, they, a lot of them didn't believe that after Jesus died, that he was going to raise again, they were hiding because they thought they were going to get killed and that they had lost. 


[00:02:50] And even until he rose, they didn't. So you get this back and forth and I think the honesty of seeing these were real people and they had issues and they talked about their issues and then they go on to carry on in this spreading of the gospel of Jesus even though they knew the whole time what would happen. 


[00:03:16] Even when they were walking with Jesus, he was telling them how they were going to die. And how they were going to be reprimanded for furthering his kingdom. And it was never this pull for fame that you read about. And I just, they're famous now. Yes. But they didn't get to experience the fruits of that fame. 


[00:03:37] Gina: Jesus told them that the world was going to hate them. 


[00:03:40] Cody: And they did. They got brutally 


[00:03:41] Ben: murdered. 


[00:03:42] Gina: Yeah. 


[00:03:43] Ben: Yeah. And when you look at some of the more famous cult leaders, specifically, we'll go with Joseph Smith. Yeah. The guy ended up with a lot of wives and a lot of money, and the commonality you see with a lot of cult leaders is that the leaders end up becoming very wealthy, they end up with a lot of sex, and they end up with a lot of influence. 


[00:04:05] Now, you can make the argument that the disciples ended up with a sizable amount of influence, because they did have churches that were under them, and they did spend a lot of time building churches throughout the ancient world. They didn't enjoy anything from that, like they didn't gain any benefit. 


[00:04:24] They didn't gain any monetary benefit. They were constantly on the run. They were constantly being put in prison. They were constantly being flogged. If we go just based off of the Apostle Paul's writing about himself. He, he talks in one of his letters about how he's constantly on the run, he's been attacked by bandits, he's been attacked by wild animals, he's had to abandon cities multiple times, he's been stoned multiple times, like, the disciples didn't have a very easy time of it. 


[00:04:50] Nobody in the early church had an easy time of it. A lot of them died, and a lot of them died horribly. And a lot of them ended up dying far from home. There were a number of disciples who ended up going as far north as modern Russia, and supposedly, we don't know for certain if that's the case, but that is what's reported. 


[00:05:10] And reportedly, off into India, off into Africa. Like, they went all over the place, which was very difficult for them to do at that time. And there was no reason to do it. They didn't speak the language, they didn't know the people. And they ended up dying away from their friends, away from their family, away from anyone who would have shed a tear for them. 


[00:05:28] Why did they do that? 


[00:05:29] Cody: No, they didn't live these fantastic lives and, oh, they were world travelers, but they were constantly running from the law. World travel 


[00:05:38] Gina: meant a lot. It was a lot different back then. We didn't have airplanes and, like, they walked or rode a donkey, like, or a horse. It was not easy. It took months. 


[00:05:51] It was scary. Like, it was probably lonely. 


[00:05:54] Ben: You can make the argument for some of them that they came from nothing and had nothing to lose. Okay, fine. Matthew was a tax collector. He was a wealthy man before he became a disciple of Christ. And he lost his wealth, gave it all up, and he started an entirely new life, essentially, of poverty. 


[00:06:10] And, uh, Okay, you may say, all right, well, whatever. That's Matthew. I don't care about that. What about Paul? Well, the 


[00:06:14] Gina: Chosen makes Matthew special needs, so. 


[00:06:19] Cody: Yeah, he didn't 


[00:06:20] Ben: have his wits about him. I guess not. Well, if the Chosen says it, then obviously. Saying that about the Disciples is one thing. Saying that about Matthew, okay, he's the exception. 


[00:06:31] Maybe he thought he could get more wealthy by literally giving up everything and doing the dumbest thing possible. Okay, whatever. But Paul. Paul is the biggest example of a person who had literally no reason to turn to Christ. He was actively capturing and, if Paul's to be believed, executing them. He considered himself a murderer. 


[00:06:50] He considered himself a killer of Christians. He put them in prison at the very least, we know that. And he was actively hunting the early church. He was a man who was considered a Pharisee among Pharisees, a learned man among learned men. And he was an up and coming religious leader. And that gave him a lot of pull in the age that he was growing up in. 


[00:07:09] He gave a whole lot up. Not just money, because he could have had that. And not just influence, because he had that. He gave up his actual life, and not just his ability to live, his ability to breathe. He gave up the full comforts of his life. And he gave up the respect and admiration of his peers. And he gave up his friendships. 


[00:07:32] He gave up every aspect of his life that he could possibly give up. And he followed Christ. He didn't have anything to gain by doing that. None of these guys had anything to gain by following the path that they did, and they did. 


[00:07:46] Gina: Okay, so let's just assume that they weren't lying, but couldn't the resurrection story have just developed as a legend over time? 


[00:07:58] Ben: Well, we kind of covered this earlier. 


[00:08:00] Gina: Okay. 


[00:08:01] Ben: But Going into it a little bit more, most of the accounts that we have from various events, especially ones from prior to 2, 000 years ago, those were written literally hundreds of years after the fact. So, Hannibal is actually a very good example. There's this ancient general Hannibal from Carthage, and he rode into Rome using war elephants, and He, uh, he went through the mountains, and there are two different accounts of him doing this, and both of them contradict to his pretty significant, irreconcilable degree. 


[00:08:35] But from these, we extrapolate that Hannibal existed, that he tried to invade Rome using war elephants, he went through the mountains, and he came close to actually attacking Rome itself, the capital city, but in the end, he wasn't successful and he left. But that's from accounts that were written 400 years after the fact, and that's not uncommon. 


[00:08:57] Cody: Who's the guy who tried to, or who did, melt a mountain with vinegar? 


[00:09:01] Ben: Well, that would have been Hannibal, supposedly. 


[00:09:03] Cody: Yeah, that's what I thought. Same story, right? Yeah, 


[00:09:05] Ben: same story. So, yeah, Hannibal is one of the more famous and easily referenced examples, but even going past that, there aren't that many sources that we have where we can say, We definitely have copies from close to the time it was written, and the Bible is one of those things where even putting past the Old Testament. 


[00:09:29] The New Testament, we have stuff where it's pretty certain we've got stuff that's written within a hundred years of Jesus's death. I think the latest that they'll put anything on is the Gospel of John, and they'll say it was written by year 90. Even the most ardent skeptic will put the earliest at year 70, but even folks like Bart Ehrman will say, no, the Gospel of Mark was definitely written prior to that, maybe the year 40. 


[00:09:54] That's practically unheard of in terms of ancient times, where we can legitimately say, okay, we know these are definitely contemporary, these were definitely written at the time, the, uh, the actual emperor at the time of Jesus birth. I believe that was Tiberius, right? The writings that specifically talk about his reign, I think were written about a hundred years after his life and his death. 


[00:10:16] It's just not something that happened very often, where you would find something that was written within ten years. And the best estimates, I would argue, the most compelling estimates, put the earliest gospel to be Within 10 years, probably even earlier than that, and Lee Strobel has gone into some depths about exactly why that is, and you can look at that in the case, both the case for Christ and the case for Easter and the case for the Resurrection. 


[00:10:40] The point is that the Gospels are an incredibly unique work because nothing has ever been covered to the extent. that Jesus's life has been, and nothing has been covered to the extent that the Gospels have been by so many other sources, and there were so many people who were invested in copying it in its entirety. 


[00:10:59] There are so many copies from within the first 300 years that we have, and there is no other event in history that we can say we have anything even close to that, and still people claim that we just don't know. 


[00:11:12] Cody: Do you think there's any value in the fact that there's three, like the synoptic gospels, the Matthew, Mark, and Luke, being three different authors but having pretty much the same storyline? 


[00:11:24] Ben: So is it that they were basically cheating off of each other? Yeah, 


[00:11:28] Cody: well, I've heard that before but also you'd think that you have like Mark is usually regarded as the earliest written But you also have these other Gospels that are written at different times by different clearly differently people we can confirm that just by writing style and how they were composed but Also, it's a pretty identical story. 


[00:11:52] Do you think that adds value to this argument at all? 


[00:11:56] Ben: Well, the strange thing is that you'll get a lot of atheists who say that there are so many different contradictions between the Gospels. So it's bizarre that you will hear both of these arguments simultaneously. It's, oh, they're too similar, therefore they just used one of the earliest Gospels and copied that. 


[00:12:10] And then you'll simultaneously hear, Oh, there are so many contradictions between them, therefore they couldn't possibly be referring to the same thing. There's a guy named J. Warner Wallace who talks about this in Cold Case Christianity, as well as his podcast, and a bunch of different places. But, the gist of it is that, from a criminal law perspective, if you were interviewing a bunch of different witnesses, you would expect there to be slight deviations between their stories. 


[00:12:35] But, For the most part, line up. And the slight deviations don't mean they're lying or that they're wrong. For instance, one of the supposed contradictions has to do with the time of day where the ladies were going to the tomb. And in one gospel, it talks about it still being dark. And another one, it talks about it being gray. 


[00:12:54] And another one talks about it just barely being light. Are you honestly telling me that's a contradiction? All of them are referring to the same time of day. It's early morning. It's really early morning. And one of them can be talking about when they started. As in, it's really dark out when they left. 


[00:13:11] One can be talking about as they were heading there, talking to each other. It was getting gray. And by the time they reached the tomb, it was light. Just barely. That's not contradictions, and that's the kind of thing you would expect from different witness testimonies, because each person is thinking about it slightly differently, and they're focusing on a different aspect that has meaning to them. 


[00:13:31] Gina: Yeah, also, if you've got somebody ten years after it happened writing a story about it, they're not going to remember every detail perfectly. So gotta have some grace there. 


[00:13:40] Ben: Sure. So we don't even need to say that the Gospels are infallible. That's something that I happen to believe, and we can get into that in the next session. 


[00:13:49] And I do think Cody agrees. I think Gina disagrees with us on that, but we'll get to that. It's going to be an interesting discussion, I think. I'm really looking forward to it. We don't even need to go as far as saying that they're infallible. If it's just witness testimony between a bunch of different people who happen to have seen or known Jesus or happen to know the people who were there. 


[00:14:10] In this case, the women who went to the tomb, because the women didn't specifically write the Gospels. They told the story to the disciples, and the disciples wrote it down, or people who knew the disciples wrote it down, or Luke who was investigating it wrote it down. The point is that those are still first hand accounts. 


[00:14:25] And so, they line up to the point that you would expect for people who actually are telling the truth and were actually there. 


[00:14:32] Cody: Agreed. 


[00:14:33] Gina: I agree. 


[00:14:35] Ben: I was trying to put you on the spot, Gina, it's okay. The 


[00:14:38] Gina: Bible is not a lie, like, I generally No, no, no. I 


[00:14:40] Ben: think that it's something, just briefly going into the infallibility of the Gospels, there is some discussion about what exactly that means. 


[00:14:49] And I am looking forward to fully defining our terms and then finding where we all line up because we agree on so many more things than we disagree on. And I think that as a general rule, that's the case for all Christians. I do think that there is a danger in getting hung up on small details that we really don't need to disagree all that intensely about, and sometimes we do. 


[00:15:10] Gina: And I want to encourage anybody that's listening not to take our word for anything we've just said. Please go do your own research and don't let us spoon feed you because that's not our intention at all. 


[00:15:21] Cody: So, where do the prophecies come into play here? So, you have all of these Old Testament prophecies, and how many were really made about Jesus? 


[00:15:35] Gina: Can you define prophecy before you explain the question, or answer the question? 


[00:15:41] Ben: Yeah, so, as far as Christianity and Judaism goes, like, when we talk about prophecy, we'll have a slightly different definition than what the common definition now would be. Because if you say prophecy, you think, okay, the future. 


[00:15:55] It's a statement about the future, something that hasn't happened yet. The gift of prophecy for Christianity or the act of prophecy in Judaism is something a little bit different. It's essentially a revelation from God. That revelation can be about something that is happening now, something that is It can be about something that happened in the past. 


[00:16:12] It can be about something that has yet to happen. And it can be information about a person specifically. It doesn't have to be about grandiose events, great battles yet to happen, the end of the world. Sometimes it's a revelation about something that someone has done. For instance, Nathan the prophet was given a prophecy, what we would call a word of knowledge, about the king David. 


[00:16:32] Specifically, God revealed to the prophet that David had killed Uriah the Hittite, the actual husband of the woman Bathsheba who David had gotten pregnant. That is Technically prophecy, because it is a revelation that God revealed to the prophet Nathan. That's why they're called prophets, because they hear from God. 


[00:16:55] They prophesy, they reveal what is revealed to them by God. So, when we're talking about prophecies about Jesus, obviously we are specifically referring to things that prophets were revealed about the coming Messiah. About a king, a conqueror, a man who was going to come in the clouds with honor and glory. 


[00:17:16] So, there were a lot of details that were revealed about a figure that was going to come in Israel's future. And it was revealed throughout the entirety of the Bible, at various times, through various prophets. Some people you wouldn't even think of as prophets, like King David, but is technically a prophet. 


[00:17:31] And, The, uh, the overview, what people were expecting is that he was going to be a king over Israel, that he was going to vanquish Israel's enemies, that he was going to bring about an age of peace for Israel as well as for the rest of the world. It's a lot of stuff like that. And there were a number of details that were revealed specifically about him and where he would come. 


[00:17:52] Daniel chapter 9. Is actually a very specific prophecy. So, a lot of times when you hear the term prophecy, it's like, oh, okay, so there's some vague, wibbly wobbly, timey wimey thing. It's, there is, there will be on a set date, a man, and he exists, and he will wear a shirt, and the shirt will be of a color. 


[00:18:12] What color, who can say, but he will be asked a question and the question will be answered and the answer to that question will be one of sustained glory and interest and they'll use a lot of weird words like, yeah, you think, okay, so Nostradamus, great. We have a bunch of weird vagueness that doesn't help us at all, and it doesn't seem to serve any purpose, but it's a reference to something that will happen in the future. 


[00:18:36] When it comes to prophecies about Jesus, it's actually pretty specific. And the amazing thing about Daniel chapter 9, and Mike Winger, Pastor Mike Winger, has done a very good, like, hour long deep dive into Daniel chapter 9. But as just the brief CliffsNotes version, it's a reference, a timeline specifically from the point at which there was construction on the wall in Jerusalem. 


[00:19:01] From that point to when the Messiah was going to come, which is one of the reasons why, when you read the Gospels, it seems like people are expecting the Messiah at that time. There's multiple references to that. A lot of different people were expecting the Messiah, and it wasn't just people in Israel. 


[00:19:20] There were the Magi who were expecting something, and they follow the star, and they find Jesus. Daniel chapter 9 is one of the big reasons for that, because Daniel provides a specific number of years from one point, the starting point, to the final point, which is the birth of Christ, and it is exact. And if you follow it, and you understand exactly what it is Daniel is saying, he is being very specific and very intentional. 


[00:19:43] With the number of years, and the starting point, and the end point, when exactly Jesus is born. And it's an incredibly precise prophecy. It's really interesting when you dig into it. So again, I would really encourage everyone to look at Pastor Mike Winger's deep dive into Daniel chapter 9 specifically. 


[00:19:59] But going past that, There are additional prophecies. 


[00:20:03] Gina: Can I ask a question? Yeah. How many total prophecies are there? 


[00:20:06] Ben: What was it? There's someone who's counted all of them. I think it was, what, 800 and something? It's up there. I don't know the number. I thought 


[00:20:13] Gina: it was 900 and something. 


[00:20:14] Ben: Oh, well, what's a hundred prophecies between friends? 


[00:20:16] But yeah, there was the prophecy given in Micah, but you, Bethlehem, Ephrathah, though you be the smallest among the clans of Israel, out of you will come someone whose origins are of old from ancient times. They knew that the Messiah was going to be born in Bethlehem. They knew the year that he was going to be born. 


[00:20:35] They knew that he was going to be an Azrite on top of that. They knew he was going to come out of Egypt. There were a lot of different things that they knew. And it was specifically due to prophecies, and Jesus fulfilled all of those. 


[00:20:47] Gina: There were 456. 


[00:20:49] Ben: Oh, see, I only had twice as many. Though I do think, to be fair, there is some debate over the number of actual prophecies. 


[00:20:58] Gina: And also how many were actually fulfilled. 


[00:21:00] Ben: Yes. So, there does come some disagreement between Christians and Jews in terms of what specifically is a prophecy for Jesus and what isn't, obviously, because not every single Jewish person is a Christian. But one of the really big things is the prophecy that's outlined in Isaiah 53, which is very interesting. 


[00:21:21] Gina: Isaiah 53. 4 in the NIV says, Surely He took up our pain and bore our suffering, yet we considered Him punished by God, stricken by Him, and afflicted. Should I continue? 


[00:21:37] Ben: You can if you want, but essentially the entirety of Isaiah chapter 53. Sounds like an entire outline for Jesus's life and his death. 


[00:21:46] Oftentimes, if you will read it with a Jewish person, who has never read Isaiah 53, and odds are they haven't read Isaiah 53, they'll think that you're reading specifically from the New Testament, because that's how closely it mirrors it. 


[00:22:00] Gina: Well, you had to write a paper on that last semester for school. 


[00:22:03] Cody: Did I? 


[00:22:04] Gina: Yeah. I 


[00:22:04] Cody: don't remember. That's a shame. That would have been something very interesting to go into right now. I write too many papers for school, so I don't remember that one. 


[00:22:12] Ben: But yeah, there is, so yeah, there is a claim that Isaiah 53 is not actually talking about a person, but about Israel generally. And I believe you included a nice little rebuttal to that in our outline here. 


[00:22:24] Cody: Yeah, so, the general idea, or what a lot of practicing, current practicing Jews that didn't fully complete themselves into Christianity. is that Isaiah 53 is actually talking about Israel as a whole rather than a specific person, but reading the Talmud and some different items there, early rabbis and Jewish believers back then believed it was about a specific person until Jesus came, and it seems like there was this huge cover up with Isaiah 53. 


[00:22:57] Ben: It's understandable, because it does kind of directly seem to be implicating him as the Messiah. 


[00:23:04] Cody: Yeah. And there's also like just doing some research on Isaiah 53 in general, there is a lot of debate of whether it's actually forbidden to read in certain Jewish cultures and a lot of. Still practicing Jewish folk will say that it's not and they still read it, but actually being over in Israel, that is not what we were told over there by people in Israel. 


[00:23:26] So if you hear that rebuttal, it's not true from when I was in Israel from people who are still Jewish. 


[00:23:34] Ben: So you don't get much more authentic than the Jews from Israel. 


[00:23:38] Gina: Gosh, they're very interesting people. 


[00:23:41] Cody: Yeah. 


[00:23:41] Gina: They have a lot of hats. 


[00:23:44] Cody: That one, I couldn't believe how much it cost. The, it was made out of what, beaver or something? 


[00:23:52] Gina: It was like a big, Cylinder. 


[00:23:54] Cody: I didn't even realize there had beaver out there. . I think it was be, it was Beaver, right? I 


[00:23:59] Gina: don't remember. It was some sort of 


[00:24:01] Cody: wombat 


[00:24:01] Gina: animal, but it was meant to be like almost like a sign of humiliation to wear a hat like that because you're not worthy to have your head uncovered in the presence of the Lord. 


[00:24:12] Cody: Oh, I didn't, I thought it was a status symbol. 'cause I thought. No. 


[00:24:16] Gina: Well, it might be, but. I don't know. I thought it 


[00:24:19] Cody: was for, like, Ken of a rabbi or something is why they wore that, but. I 


[00:24:25] Gina: didn't research it that greatly. 


[00:24:27] Cody: Probably making myself sound like an idiot. 


[00:24:29] Gina: Yeah. We saw a lot of hats. 


[00:24:31] Cody: Yeah, there's lots of hats. 


[00:24:33] Yeah. They 


[00:24:34] Ben: do like their hats over there, don't they? 


[00:24:35] Cody: I like their hats. 


[00:24:37] Ben: Hey, who doesn't like hats? 


[00:24:38] Gina: Well, like, just the way that they dress themselves. Like, they take a lot of care in how they appear. Like, they were always in a suit and dressed to the nines. 


[00:24:47] Cody: Israeli police. By far have the coolest logo and hat I have ever seen in my life. 


[00:24:54] What's their logo? It's like an eagle, I think. I can't remember specifically. I looked so hard to find one and the closest anybody could get was a military hat, but I wish I could find one of those. Oh, that's a shame. 


[00:25:08] Gina: We're like so far off topic. No, no, it's 


[00:25:10] Ben: okay. It's okay. Alright, getting back in, because I think we've covered this pretty well. 


[00:25:15] I think we've addressed the evidence, I think we've addressed a lot of the different arguments and the different approaches, but in the end that doesn't really explain why it is he needed to die. So why? Assuming all of this happened, assuming that the disciples weren't lying, and assuming that his life, death, and resurrection really did happen, why was it even necessary to begin with? 


[00:25:38] Gina: Look at Old Testament sacrifice. The only way that God would interact with them, forgive them, bless them, whatever, was if they offered a sacrifice, if they needed to apologize, if they needed to just be in His presence, or even like there were regimented certain times of the year you went and you sacrificed. 


[00:25:56] So, like, why would we be excused, how would we, how else would we be excused from that need without the Messiah? 


[00:26:07] Ben: Well, so do you think it is that sacrifice in and of itself is the only way that sin could be forgiven? 


[00:26:13] Gina: If I look at the evidence, yes. 


[00:26:16] Ben: So why is it that it's necessary for sacrifice to be done in order to forgive sin? 


[00:26:21] Gina: You haven't answered. 


[00:26:23] Cody: I don't know as much about the sacrificial system as I should. 


[00:26:27] Gina: We all have to pay, right? We gotta pay something. 


[00:26:30] Cody: We don't, because we have Jesus. 


[00:26:32] Gina: Well, no, but 


[00:26:33] Ben: Well, so let's expound on that a little more. So, in ancient Hebrew culture, there was the concept of sacrifice. So if you had committed sins, and you knew that you had, or even if you didn't know that you committed sins, but you expected that you probably had at some point, and you wanted to atone for them. 


[00:26:50] There was a process of sacrifice where you would take, there were different types of sacrifices, there were free will offerings, there were fellowship offerings. But the general gist is that you would take the best of something that you had, generally a living animal, typically a sheep, a goat. And it had to be a flawless sheep, a flawless goat, it had to be the oldest, it had to be the first born. 


[00:27:11] And then you would take that and you would slaughter it. And then you would burn it on an altar. And that was the process of sacrifice by which you would atone for the sins that you had committed. Now, why would killing an animal cover your sin? 


[00:27:26] Gina: I don't know. Because if you think about, like, even just, there's certain things in the Old Testament that, if you really think about, like, the original covenant, it was interesting how they, you animal body parts all over the ground and walked through them symbolically. 


[00:27:45] I don't know the logic behind that. 


[00:27:48] Ben: Well, so there was another form of sacrifice that was interesting. It's the idea of scapegoating. So an individual goat would be taken. All of the sins of Israel would be symbolically placed upon this goat and it would wander off into the desert to die. So what do you think that's about? 


[00:28:06] Gina: Me specifically? 


[00:28:07] Ben: Either of you 


[00:28:07] Cody: guys. I 


[00:28:09] Gina: think you owe us an explanation, sir. 


[00:28:11] Cody: I honestly have no idea what it's about. I know that's where we get scapegoat, and I don't know the true meaning behind that. 


[00:28:20] Gina: I have a feeling we're about to get a lesson from Professor Ben. 


[00:28:24] Ben: I don't think you're about to get a lesson. 


[00:28:27] I was just curious if you guys had any insight on that before I started picking my way through it. 


[00:28:34] Gina: I don't have, like, a very articulate way of explaining it other than, like, someone's got to pay. 


[00:28:42] Ben: There have been a number of different people who've written on this and provided explanations, and there are certain things that are hinted at in the Bible as well. 


[00:28:48] But it's the idea that you by yourself can't possibly atone for your own sin. So, yeah. Yeah. And something does need to be given in place of what it is that you've taken from God. Because essentially sin is theft from God. You are taking yourself, and you are imposing your will on your own life rather than God's. 


[00:29:07] And you have separated yourself from him, and so you need to pay him back for what it is that you have stolen. Now the thing is, you're paying him back with something he already owns. But, there is the thought that it wasn't that these sacrifices were actually making any atonement for sin at all. Because ultimately, the Bible also says in the Old Testament, is it sacrifice and the blood of animals that God truly desires, or is it obedience? 


[00:29:35] The idea is that these don't actually cover sin. Killing an animal and using its blood doesn't cover sin. But it is establishing, as part of the culture, the idea that sacrifice is needed. Some kind of sacrifice is needed. And it works more symbolically to reinforce up until the time of Christ, when simultaneously, sacrifice is stopped. 


[00:29:58] There's this reinforced up until his birth and his death that something needs to happen for the sins, not just of Israel, but all mankind, because the rest of mankind wasn't sacrificing. So what about their sins? 


[00:30:13] Gina: Can I ask an off script question? 


[00:30:15] Ben: Certainly. 


[00:30:16] Gina: Why don't the Jews still do sacrifice? 


[00:30:21] Ben: Well, oddly enough, that was part of prophecy as well. 


[00:30:23] Gina: Okay. 


[00:30:24] Ben: But the main reason is because the temple no longer exists. So, yeah, the temple was demolished in, I think, year 70 


[00:30:31] Cody: AD, 


[00:30:32] Ben: and after the destruction of the temple, it was prophesied that for a time, sacrifice would no longer be done. And so the reason that Jews specifically don't sacrifice is because there's no temple to do it in. 


[00:30:43] But it is believed that one day the temple will be rebuilt, and then sacrifices to God will continue. 


[00:30:49] Gina: Interesting. Thank you. 


[00:30:50] Ben: No problem. But all that goes back to the ultimate sacrifice, which is Jesus. So why is it that Jesus's sacrifice was necessary? Well, ultimately there is a price that all humanity owes, and it's one that we can't possibly pay because ultimately the only price that will satisfy is our own lives because that's what's been taken. 


[00:31:10] Now, the only other way that could possibly pay, because God is both good and just, and so for him to take action, he needs to do it in a way that is both good and just. A crime has been committed and there is an imbalance. Something has been taken from him and it needs to be paid back, or at the very least something of equivalent value does need to be put up, because in our own common law, if someone steals from you. 


[00:31:39] You are owed a balance, and that can be forgiven, but ultimately, that imbalance still exists if I've stolen 100 from you. And I don't pay it back and you forgive it, that 100 imbalance still exists. True justice hasn't been done. Grace has been given, but true justice hasn't been done. 


[00:31:55] Gina: So that would explain why God couldn't just forgive us without sacrificing Jesus. 


[00:31:59] Ben: Correct. Because the imbalance would still exist, and He is equal parts good and just. So rather than allowing all of us to have to pay the price for our own sins by surrendering our own lives as payment, He sacrificed his own in exchange for ours to eliminate any costs, any imbalance that would exist. 


[00:32:18] It wasn't the sacrifice of animals. It wasn't the sacrifice and the donating of blood and grain and all of that. All of that was just a type, an indication of what was needed and what was to come. And on that foundation, on that symbology, was built the idea of Jesus coming and sacrificing himself. For all of us. 


[00:32:39] Once and for all people for all time. So yeah, that's my take on it. I don't know if it's correct, but it's the explanation that makes the most sense to me. And this isn't something that I've specifically come up with. This is something that Dr. David Wood has talked about, and I happen to agree with his explanation. 


[00:32:54] I think that it's a solid one. 


[00:32:56] Gina: I believe, for me, the helpful thing about the explanation you just gave is that it's really hard for new Christians, because I've been there and I've talked to a lot of them. In fact, one of them even thought that the Old Testament and the New Testament were two completely separate books. 


[00:33:13] So, this is maybe helpful for somebody who, you looks at the, like, New Testament relationship aspect with God and wonders where that is in the Old Testament. And I think if you can understand that the obedience aspect was there in the Old Testament through sacrifice, like, we're still called to obedience to Christ, but it's through different means now, and that helps explain how God is unchanging, because His expectation for obedience has always been there. 


[00:33:47] It's just played out differently after Jesus. 


[00:33:50] Ben: Yeah, I agree. I think that's a very good way of putting it. One of our last couple questions is, as we're winding down here, assuming everything that we've talked about is true again, and assuming Jesus sacrificed himself for my sins, and assuming that was necessary, and assuming that it did pay the price for my sin, why do I need to believe in him in order to go to heaven? 


[00:34:09] Hasn't that price already been paid? 


[00:34:12] Gina: There is no point at all to believing any of it without the relationship. That's my, like, personal opinion, but that's it. Like, I've never met a Christian that was like, well, it was the most reasonable thing that I heard and I'm just going with it. Like, you have to, in your heart, believe and know and acknowledge through relationship. 


[00:34:33] And there's a lot more than just saying, okay, it's true and that's good enough. You have to actually have that relationship. And I know for people like Cody, it's hard because You don't have that like back and forth like you don't have God sitting in a fourth chair in this room with us like Chiming in so it's hard to imagine what that relationship looks like But you cannot say that you believe in Jesus and not also have a relationship with him 


[00:35:02] Cody: I agree. 


[00:35:02] I think that looks different for a lot of people. And then you get into different aspects of the divine hiddenness and all of that conversation. But the relational aspect is very important and kind of what sets apart. You can have all the facts in the world. We've just went through why we believe it to be true, but also why it's reasonable to believe that this isn't some far fetched, whimsical idea. 


[00:35:30] There is. Facts that we base our beliefs on and evidences of that, the resurrection itself and the belief in the resurrection would actually Kind of remove everybody's blind faith theory because you can't blindly believe that somebody raised from the dead. You have to have evidence of that to believe it. 


[00:35:52] I guess you could, but I think that makes you ignorant, but that's beside the point. But you can have all the evidence in the world, but without the Relational aspect. And I think we talked about this a little bit on another podcast. I don't think you'll fully get there and fully understand. 


[00:36:12] Ben: But I think part of the question, and in one way or another, I've heard this sentiment echoed in a number of different ways, but it's the idea that, okay, Jesus sacrificed himself, paid for my sins. 


[00:36:23] Why don't I just get into heaven? Why do I need this relationship? Not denying that the relationship has value or that it wouldn't be good to have a relationship with him But you have eternity to have some kind of relationship with him presumably. So why would you need to believe in him now? 


[00:36:39] Cody: Why would you need to believe in him now? 


[00:36:41] Because you only truly believe the things that you do I don't think you can if I believe that the Sun is going to murder me when I go outside I wouldn't go outside You And that would be a belief. If you believe that your sin separates you and could cause you not to live eternally, why would you not? 


[00:37:05] change the way that you're living. 


[00:37:07] Gina: If you believe that Jesus is real, and that he died for your sins, and that all of this is reasonable, then you also believe everything he told you in the Bible, all of the things he called you to, which is to love your neighbor as yourself, and to spread the good news, and to treat people with kindness. 


[00:37:27] And if you are not living out the things that Jesus called you to, then you're not living in relationship with him, and you're not obeying him, and obedience and repentance is a condition of salvation. Like, it's not works based, but you have to submit in those ways. 


[00:37:44] Ben: Yeah, at this point, You aren't being punished for your own sins specifically. 


[00:37:50] It's that you are choosing to reject the grace that you've been given. That's absolutely something you can still do. So, inherent in this question, I think, is a bit of arrogance, because it's, oh, well, so, you know, Jesus sacrificed himself in my place. I deserve death. I deserved an eternal separation from God as payment for literally stealing from the Almighty, from taking from Him what is His, and making it mine. 


[00:38:14] He sacrificed himself and has literally condemned himself to that darkness. I should still be able to go to heaven. No matter what I do, no matter what I feel, no matter what I think, I don't even need to have a relationship with him. It's like a rich kid whose dad is bailing him out every single time he goes to jail and still badmouths his dad and has a horrible relationship with him and his dad is constantly trying to help him. 


[00:38:41] I very much get that kind of image. from the people who take this position, but regardless of that, we all, we did kind of address this in whether or not God is good and how he can be good and what goodness is. Ultimately, when you finally come face to face with God, you have a choice. At that point, you have full knowledge of who you are and who God is, and there is no question anymore. 


[00:39:04] There's no doubt. There is only, do you want to spend an eternity with God or do you not? If you don't want to spend an eternity with God, the only alternative is godlessness, and godlessness is torture. So, it isn't just that God has sacrificed himself for you and paid the price for your sins. It's that do you want to spend an eternity with him or not? 


[00:39:26] If you want to spend an eternity with this guy, And you don't love him, why would you even, you're not going to go to heaven. If you don't love him, but you just want an eternity of an easy life, that's selfishness. That is actually rejecting God, because it's not who God is. And I think a lot of people have this misconception where they're thinking, Okay, so there's this nice place and this bad place, obviously I'd always want to go to the nice place. 


[00:39:51] Because being in the presence of God, and for those of us who've been there, it is a beautiful thing. It's an incredible thing, but it's also a terrifying thing. And if you're not in the right space where you've been seeking him consistently, and through fasting and prayer and fear and trembling, you have tried your best to live a life that honors him, and you have a heart that aches for him and what he aches for, and instead you're coming in with arrogance, and with your own feelings at heart. 


[00:40:18] God has revealed himself to people like that. And every story I've ever heard. of God revealing himself to someone like that has been abject terror. You can't spend an eternity with God and be who you are if that's who you are. So either you have to give that up. You have to choose to accept God, Christ, who He is. 


[00:40:39] And like Gina said, you live the life that He's presented you with. Do what he's asked you to do, or you choose your own thing, and God will honor your choice. At this point, it isn't because you automatically get it because of your sin, it's because it's what you choose. 


[00:40:56] Gina: So there's a book I want to reference for anybody that's seeking or wanting to kind of figure out where they're going. 


[00:41:03] sort of add on their spectrum of relationship with Jesus. And the book is called Four Chair Discipling by Dan Spader, and it talks about like the four phases of like a person, not even necessarily a Christian. And if you get stuck in chair one, like you are, You're spiritually dead. You're helpless. And if you can move past that by admitting that and asking for somebody to lead you, whether that's Jesus or your church or whatever, then you can move on to the next chair. 


[00:41:32] But ultimately, if you choose to believe that The sacrifice Jesus made on the cross was good enough and you don't have to do anything. You're going to be stuck in that chair forever. So if you want to pick up that ebook, it's not very expensive, but it will help you understand where you are and where you need to go. 


[00:41:52] Because it's a process, and you don't just arrive suddenly because you've decided that you believe and you think you're obedient, you have to actually talk and walk the same thing. 


[00:42:03] Cody: Yeah, and to further on that and just add more understanding what Ben was asking in that question is, You can't take Jesus into your sin, like, that doesn't work. 


[00:42:15] You can't drag, hold Jesus in one hand and drag him into your sin with you. That's not how it works. So, we believe, I think, collectively, that it's a choice. If you don't think you have that choice, then It's going to happen anyway, so it doesn't really matter, but you have to physically choose. It's not like Jesus died, yes, and that was good enough, is good enough for all, but that doesn't mean all are going to be saved no matter what. 


[00:42:43] This isn't like a universal atonement. It is, you have to choose, you have to change who you are. It's not unconditional atonement either. A lot of people think that it is just, oh, Jesus loves me unconditionally. Yeah, he loves you, but, you know, it's, I think it's endued basically. Talks about loving the person but hating that the sin stained garment from the flesh and you know That is what it is. 


[00:43:13] Ben: Yeah, I agree. So all that being said I think that leads nicely into our final question, which is how can you actually know him? 


[00:43:24] Gina: Read your Bible not a book about Jesus not a podcast about Jesus Not what your best friend's mom says about Jesus Read your Bible. My family thinks that they are Christian because they've gone to a seminar or because somebody gave them a devotional for their birthday, but they didn't actually use it. 


[00:43:48] Like, you cannot categorize yourself as a Christian, and it's not because it's a club or elitist. You cannot categorize yourself as a Christian if you've never explored God's Word. And I use the word explored because it is an exploration. Like each story is incredibly interesting. Granted, there are some like. 


[00:44:10] genealogy lines and how to build a tabernacle and all of that. But there are some very amazing stories in the Bible that you would probably never hear about if you hadn't opened it. So read your Bible. 


[00:44:23] Cody: No, it's, that's awesome. It's all on a personal level, but I think people don't understand Sometimes that when you're reading books by other people or listening to podcasts or listening to sermons You're getting God through the lens of that person. 


[00:44:42] You're not getting God Experiencing God yourself. It needs to happen on a personal level not through the lens of Joel Osteen or another one of the Francis Chan. Get your knowledge of God on a personal level and supplement with other things. 


[00:45:02] Gina: If your daily dose of Jesus is somebody's quippy little two sentence Facebook post that they share every single day, you're not You should feel convicted about it. 


[00:45:16] You cannot be spoon fed by another person in order to have a sustainable relationship with Christ. 


[00:45:22] Cody: And that's not saying that you need to drop everything you're doing, sell your house, sell your car, divorce your wife, and go preach the gospel, because I've heard that on the other side of things. God made this life. 


[00:45:33] Even if sin wasn't the intention, and that's where we are, but we are still given this opportunity and this life to live it. And that is pleasing to God in itself. That doesn't mean you aren't a good Christian if you don't read your Bible every second of every day and preach it either every second of every day. 


[00:45:50] That's not what we're saying. 


[00:45:52] Gina: No, just be without excuse. 


[00:45:55] Ben: Yeah, so there's the term, Christian was originally a derogatory term and it was meant to be taken as little Christ. It was something that the Romans would use on Christians initially, where they were basically saying, oh, look at these little Christs running around. 


[00:46:10] Aren't they cute? They just love this Jesus guy so much. They wanna be just like him on these little Christs running around. And the term stuck because that's ultimately what we're called to be. We're called to reflect Christ in our own lives. If you want to be a Christian, if you want to know Him, you should be His mini me. 


[00:46:30] You should be a reflection of Him, albeit a poor one, because that's all we can ever be. But you should be seeking to be more like Him, and in seeking to be more like Him, you will come to know Him. And, like Gina and Cody have said, the only real way that you can do that is to know what it is He's told you, to know what He's commanded you, and to know who He was, who He is. 


[00:46:55] If you live your life according to what it is He's told you to do, if you take up your cross and you follow Him, you will absolutely come to know Him, and you will come to know Him intimately. But there's a warning that comes with that. There's a reason He describes it as taking up your cross. There's a lot of Christians now who They always say, my faith is private. 


[00:47:15] It's mine. It's my personal thing, and I feel like that's fine. Yes, your relationship with Jesus is personal. On a personal level, you know him, you love him, you respect him, and it is an incredibly intimate thing, but it is not private. He never asked you to make it private. He doesn't want a private relationship. 


[00:47:35] He wants to be out with you in public. He wants to be holding your hand. He wants that open relationship where everyone can see who you are, who it is you love, who it is you're with. 


[00:47:46] Gina: Listen, babe. 


[00:47:47] Ben: I'm 


[00:47:49] Gina: not gonna wear your ring. But I'll be your wife. 


[00:47:52] Cody: Oh dear. 


[00:47:54] Gina: If you treated your spouse or your best friend the way that we treat Jesus, they wouldn't be with you. 


[00:47:59] Cody: Absolutely. No, and if you look at things you truly love too, like, even if it's something stupid like a restaurant, you're telling people about it. I just had this great sushi. This movie was so awesome. You should watch it this this product. It was great. You should really get it 


[00:48:19] Ben: Yeah, guilty pleasure. I absolutely loved Puss in Boots 2 And I've talked to Cody and Gina about it. 


[00:48:27] I talked to everybody about it And it doesn't matter how dumb it sounds, how childish it sounds, I love the movie and I can't talk to people enough about it, I can't recommend it enough. That is a stupid thing for me to talk to people about. And it's silly, and there may be people who judge me for that. 


[00:48:43] That doesn't matter because I love the movie. I enjoyed it. And I want other people to enjoy it. Because there's a connection that establishes between me and that other person. If we all love something collectively together, and that's another thread amongst a massive web of threads that can connect your life and bring someone closer to you even more intimately than before. 


[00:49:02] It's another thing you can enjoy together, you can talk about. And it's another part of a foundation on which you can build an even greater life. And that is a stupid kid's movie. Jesus is the full foundation. He is the heart. He's the heart of an entire belief system, he's the heart of your morality, he's the heart of your feelings, your passions, your dreams. 


[00:49:24] And you want to keep that to yourself? 


[00:49:29] Gina: The hardest thing about being a first generation Christian is seeing hopelessness in my family and wanting them to have the hope that I have and knowing how totally transformed I am because of Jesus. There would be something seriously wrong with my faith if I could look at my family and say, it's okay. 


[00:49:51] They can go to hell. 


[00:49:52] Cody: Yeah. How do you not want that for other people? Not the going to hell part, but Jesus for other people. And if you're not telling people, if you have the mentality that Jesus is private in your life and that's the mentality you take, I would challenge you to reevaluate because It sounds to me like you're embarrassed of Jesus. 


[00:50:15] Gina: If you're afraid of sharing Jesus, With the people that you're around, I would even argue, like, what, what are you surrounding yourself with that so opposes God that you're afraid to talk about Him? Becoming a Christian for me, like, I lost all my friends, I lost my family. It was not just this, like, skipping through a field of daisies thing. 


[00:50:39] It was hard. Like, you want to know Jesus, sometimes you have to leave stuff behind. You don't have to do immoral things to know Jesus. Like Cody shared, we've heard people justify leaving their wives because they want to follow Jesus. You don't have to do that. But if you're embarrassed to talk about him or afraid to talk about him because you think that it's going to impact your relationship with somebody, let me tell you what, your relationship with Jesus is much more impactful and sustaining than the relationship that you're trying to preserve by hiding your faith. 


[00:51:07] Amen. 


[00:51:08] Ben: And it's not that you shouldn't take the time, place, and manner into consideration when you talk about Jesus. There are absolutely going to be times where it's not the right time. And there are going to be times where it is. And one of the ways that you can discern the difference is by getting closer to Jesus to begin with. 


[00:51:28] By listening to the Holy Spirit, by constantly praying. You will generally feel when it's time. You will have an argument with God in those times. I can promise you that. There are going to be points where you will feel like you really should say something, and those are almost always the times when you should. 


[00:51:46] But if you just don't think to say it, if, like, if it doesn't even pop into your mind, and you're talking with someone, and then after the fact, you shouldn't feel guilty because Jesus didn't come up every single time you said something to that person. The point is that there are going to be times where it feels right, where it feels natural, where it fits. 


[00:52:03] And in those times, you shouldn't be afraid to bring them up. 


[00:52:06] Gina: I would agree. 


[00:52:07] Ben: Oh, thank goodness. 


[00:52:11] Gina: I want to tell a story to close us out about what we've just been talking about because it really taught me obedience in my walk with Jesus. But I'm adopted and my biological dad passed away due to COVID and as that process happened, I had never met that part of my family. 


[00:52:34] I'd never met my biological father, my siblings, anybody, but in the process of finding my birth family and all of the genealogy stuff that I was doing, I met some cousins who knew my biological grandpa. And so, when my birth father passed away, one of my cousins called me and said she was really concerned about my grandpa, and he's an alcoholic. 


[00:52:57] And so, I'd been praying, I felt bad, I was really devastated by the entire situation, and God called me to speak with my biological grandfather. And at the time, I was thinking Am I supposed to evangelize? What am I supposed to say? And God told me what to say, but I don't think the point was even that I needed to call my grandpa because of the words that my grandpa said to me when I called him, which was, I don't know you and he hung up on me and I just want to leave with the reminder that if we don't obey the Lord, he won't know us and we won't know him. 


[00:53:37] And there's scripture to back that up. Sometimes God wants to know that we're going to listen to him and he challenges us in ways that we don't expect. And it's not always because it's going to save another person. In fact, we're not responsible for saving other people. That's Jesus's job. But we want to know that at the end of our lives, he's going to. 


[00:53:58] Hug us and embrace us and say well done and we can't know that if we're not obeying him. So that's it 


[00:54:06] Ben: Absolutely. Thanks a lot for sharing that 


[00:54:09] Gina: Thank you so much for taking the time to listen to our podcast today. If you liked what you heard, please feel free to subscribe and share and leave a positive review. 


[00:54:19] And if you would like to connect with us on social media, you can do so on Instagram and Facebook at the logic of God. You can also send us an email at main dot the logic of God at gmail. com. Thanks again for listening. We hope you have a great day.