Does God Exist?

[00:00:00] Cody: Hi, thank you for tuning in to the Logic of God podcast. I'm Cody. 


[00:00:16] Gina: I'm Gina. 


[00:00:16] Ben: And I'm Ben. If you're returning, thank you for coming back and if you are a new guest, welcome. 


[00:00:35] Ben: The topic that we're going to be covering today, following on from last week's topic is the number one assumption that we listed in that, which was that God exists. So today we're going to be expounding on that a bit and we've written up a series of questions that should help. Explore what exactly this assumption is and what it means, why we have it. 


[00:00:56] Yeah, first question tied to that assumption is who exactly is God, which I think is kind of an important thing. If we say God exists, we should probably say what we mean when we say God exists. So, any thoughts, anyone? 


[00:01:10] Gina: I had pulled up your verse that you listed in Exodus, and it's Exodus 3, 6, and I'll go ahead and read it. 


[00:01:16] Ben (2): Please do. 


[00:01:17] Gina: Yes, it is when God is talking to Moses, and he says, I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. At this, Moses hid his face because he was afraid to look at God. God is, for me, he is the creator. And he is the most powerful force in existence. But I think we need to get into the technical side of God. 


[00:01:47] The logical side. 


[00:01:49] Ben: Yeah, it makes sense to me. 


[00:01:52] Gina: I work in intangibles. 


[00:01:55] Ben: And that's why we love you, that's why you're here. Yeah, when I say God exists, the God that I'm talking about specifically is the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob. He's the figurehead of the Abrahamic religions, so we're talking Judaism, we're talking Islam, and we're talking Christianity. 


[00:02:11] And as Christians, obviously, we are referring to God as depicted in Christianity, which is very similar to Judaism in large, large part. Some differences to Islam, which, Lord willing, when we cover Islam, if we ever get to that, we'll go into more depth. But essentially, we're talking about the version of God that is depicted in Genesis and Exodus in the Old Testament that was provided through the Jewish faith. 


[00:02:35] And that continues on through the Christian and Jewish faith today. Yeah, a lot of the times we're going to be referencing Scripture. I mean, obviously, this is the Logic of God podcast, and we're all Christians here. We're going to be referencing the Bible a lot. And we'll be going into why we reference the Bible as one of our other core assumptions later. 


[00:02:51] And like I said, this is why we're going into the assumptions, and the assumptions will lead into one another. The foundation of all of our arguments really is based around these core assumptions. So, going into God exists, question number one, because this is a big part of who Christians say God is, the Trinity. 


[00:03:09] What is the Trinity? 


[00:03:11] Gina: He's obviously Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. He is the representation. We're created in the image of the triune God. And so you see, Father is God, Son is Jesus, and then we have the Holy Spirit, who came after Jesus resurrected. And, Ben and I have very similar takes on the Trinity and the functions of it, and kind of how I explained it to our children, which takes it on a very simple, child like explanation, but we have our soul, we have our mind, and we have our body, and each representation of God is in those things in us, and that's the easiest way to help our children understand how God can be three in one, if that makes sense. 


[00:03:54] Ben: Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so when we talk about the Trinity, this is actually a really big sticking point for a lot of people when they're introduced to Christianity. And for our listeners who don't understand, it's like what Gina said, the Trinity is the idea that there are three parts to God, and this is taught in the Christian faith. 


[00:04:11] So there is God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, and all three of them are part of the same God. One singular God, three parts. And if you haven't been raised on this doctrine, it's actually, it's really confusing. And there are a lot of people who will say, well, an egg is made of three parts. 


[00:04:29] There's the shell and wide and deep inside is the yolk. And you see it's three parts to the same egg. And. That doesn't help. And then you talk about water, and it's like, well, there are three different stages of water. There's water vapor, and there's liquid water. There's the ice. It's a solid water. So there we go. 


[00:04:48] That's God. And these are all illustrations of how things can be different things. They're not explanations of how one person can be seemingly three different people. So, the best explanation that I've ever heard, and I wish I knew the name of the man who explained it like this, because I didn't come up with this, but to, to the Greeks, human beings were composed of three parts. 


[00:05:12] There is your mind, your body, and your will. And all three of those parts made your soul. Your essence, who you were. The term soul being used as spirit is a much more recent thing. Soul originally meant you as your entirety, what you are in essence. And so, if we are made in the image of God, and that image is what the Greeks supposed, which is mind, body, and will, God also is one soul, one person who is God, that is composed of three parts, which is God the Father, which is his mind, God the Son, which is his body, and God the Spirit, which is his will. 


[00:05:50] And I, I really do like that explanation because it does, when you think about it, your mind can think things, it can have knowledge, it can have information, and then your body can feel things, can feel aches and pains. It can be telling you that you're not well, or it can be telling you that you're hungry, or it can, you can feel a deep yearning in your bones for something that you don't understand. 


[00:06:11] Your will is separate from those two things. It can quiet your mind, it can force your mind to be silent. It can Exert its control over your body to force it beyond what you would normally allow. And sometimes there are particularly strong people who will force themselves to do things without even understanding why they'll do it. 


[00:06:29] And the teachings of the Bible and a lot of the teachings and Stoicism and stuff is about quieting your mind, is about finding your way to get a balance of all three aspects of your body to be one cohesive whole, fully balanced. And this is something that is actually referenced by Christ himself. I can't remember the exact chapter and verse, but there's the famous saying that he did, what benefit is it to you to gain the world but lose your soul, lose yourself? 


[00:06:56] And that's what he's referencing, the balance of those three parts, to gain the world but have to give up your peace of mind or the health of your body or the force of your will and to live in that kind of hell for the rest of your life. So yeah, that's typically the way that I describe the trinity again I wish I knew the name of the guy who who passed on that doctrine I'm sure somebody knows it but I 


[00:07:18] Gina: have a really good resource for that because it It aligns very much with what and it could be the same thing, but there's a video. 


[00:07:25] It's actually not about the trinity It's about fasting, but it's a sermon on youtube by todd mozingo from revive church and he does this like Physical reenactment of what, like, the interaction between the triune God and ourselves and how that kind of mirrors itself. And so that, that would be a really great video for anybody who's listening to watch. 


[00:07:48] You'll learn about fasting, but you'll also get to see, like, a very tangible representation of how God interacts within himself. 


[00:07:56] Ben: Yeah, that'd be an interesting resource to pass on. I'd like to see that. All right. 


[00:08:00] Cody: And that, that's one of the reasons I like that one so much is because when you use the water one is what I've heard most growing up and what I still hear most people use, but it opens the door for some of those other, I want to believe, I want to say it's called monalism or monalism. 


[00:08:18] But that the Trinity can't operate outside of itself, so you can only have one of those An operation at one time rather than the sole explanation where all of them can be an operation at once and be independent of each other but also one cohesive thing. 


[00:08:39] Ben: Alright, so hopefully that was helpful to you folks. 


[00:08:42] This is one of those things where you really could go on for hours. We could even potentially dedicate an entire, an entire episode just to this. And to be honest, for most of these subjects we could. But moving on from there, Take care. So what does it mean for God to be all powerful? 


[00:08:59] Gina: That's a trick question. 


[00:09:00] Ben: example of what we mean here is can God make a circular square or a rock so big he can't lift it? Or could he create another version of himself that is more powerful and still beat it? These are all different things that I've personally have heard. I'm sure everyone here has heard some variant of these questions. 


[00:09:15] And while sometimes they're asked mockingly, there are people who genuinely want to know, they ask these questions as, okay, so what does it mean for God to be all powerful? 


[00:09:25] Cody: Yeah, no, and this is definitely a question if you've talked to an atheist or a, a skeptical Christian, as I call them, you'll definitely run into this question. 


[00:09:35] And it's, for me, it's an illogical one. It's a circular reasoning type of question, so it's not rational. So you're trying to fit a rational God into an irrational question. Doesn't work and I do like your explanation of it Ben that you shared with us earlier But I kind of throw it out the window. You kind of humor the people asking it more so than I do but I Kind of nip that one in the bud whenever I hear it. 


[00:10:05] Gina: I think it's hard to Have that conversation with somebody who's genuinely curious Because, for me, it's like, okay, well, we're human, we're feeble minded compared to what God's power is. And so we put this, like, lid on power, and we believe that, like, to a certain extent, we have power, and crystals have power, and the moon has power, and then we've watched all of this TV and movies and things that have told us what has power. 


[00:10:35] And we're comparing God to what we've been told power is. And I think in order to even answer this question with any kind of knowledge, you would have to actually know what it means for God to have power, like what God's power is, because we're basing this question on what we believe power is, and it's not actually powerful. 


[00:10:55] Does that, does that make sense? 


[00:10:57] Ben: No, absolutely. All right. My, my personal go to for when I have discussions about the power of God, oftentimes there's someone who will ask, okay, so can God make someone so powerful that he can't, that it's more powerful than him? And then can he beat him? What I will answer for questions along those veins is both yes and no. 


[00:11:18] And typically the response is, okay, well it has to be one or the other, either he can or he can't. And then my response is, well, you're asking a question that fundamentally doesn't make sense. And thus, you are expecting God to adhere to the rational yes or no, while asking about an aspect of him that makes no absolute sense when you're referring to it. 


[00:11:38] So, both yes and no. Yes he can and no he can't. Yeah, if you're asking an irrational question, don't expect a rational answer, because if God truly is beyond the bounds of rationality itself, if his power is so great that he could do literally anything, then no, you don't need to have a yes or no answer, because even yes and no don't apply to him. 


[00:11:59] Now, that's not what we view God as. That's just one of the ways that I deal with the inherent bizarre questions that come. Because obviously you shouldn't expect a coherent answer to a bizarre question. But if you really want to know what it is that Christians believe, what the doctrine tends to teach, it's that God has a nature of his own. 


[00:12:21] His nature is beyond our own. It's not tied to the physical world. God can do whatever it is he wants in the physical world. He's not bound by the laws of physics, by the laws of nature, by the laws of men. He can do whatever it is that he wants. He can turn water into wine. He can raise up from the very earth itself and create men and animals and water and the sky above and the entire universe just with a word. 


[00:12:47] He can do all of that. That's all in the physical world. However, God himself does have a nature that binds him, either because he chooses to have this nature or because it's a part of him. But it's a nature beyond our own. Supernatural, if you will. You can say, well, he has a nature, that means he's not all powerful. 


[00:13:04] Okay, whatever. If that's really the direction you want to go, if you want to be pedantic about it. There are things that limit God. Obviously. Because he is good. That's the next assumption we're going to be referring to in the next episode. And this is why these core assumptions feed into one another so importantly, and that's why we refer to them as assumptions. 


[00:13:23] These are things that ultimately have evidence for them, and that we can argue. But you cannot make mathematical 100 percent proof repeatable every time that is going to satisfy everybody that this is the way it is. But because God is good, in order for him to be good, There have to, by its very nature, be things that he cannot or will not do. 


[00:13:46] And because of that, there are specific patterns that you will find in the physical world as well. Certain things that he cannot do in the physical world because he will not cross certain lines. He will not contradict himself. He will not act in terms of evil. He will not contradict his own personal nature. 


[00:14:06] And so, if you want, those are limitations. But they're not limitations in the sense of the physical world, because again, he can manipulate atoms, he can manipulate all of reality, he can manipulate time. He's not bound by those things. So that's typically what we were referring to when we say God is all powerful. 


[00:14:23] Gina: That's awesome. 


[00:14:24] Ben: Thank you. 


[00:14:25] Gina: Yeah, it kind of, it leads me into the question that, where I started as a child with God, and it's just like the origin of God or the beginning of God. Like what? What is God's creation story? And that is something that like from six years old, I remember going into my mom's room and being like, mom, if God created everything, who created God? 


[00:14:45] And she was like, I don't know. So I would love to hear Cody and Ben's take on how could God not have a beginning? 


[00:14:55] Cody: So for me, this one kind of falls along the lines of outside of our general grasp. It's like, It is like defining and comprehending truly infinite. We as humans understand and are capable of explaining what infinite is, but we're all finite. 


[00:15:18] We can't truly grasp what that is like. We can explain it, we can wrap our heads around it, but not truly. Like, numbers are infinite, but We'll never get there, we'll never see him. Yeah, 


[00:15:30] Ben: sure. 



[00:15:31] Cody: sure. 


[00:15:31] Ben: It is, it is a weird subject. And absolutely, no matter what, there are going to be limitations on what we can understand in terms of infinity. 


[00:15:39] You're absolutely right. I think we, we do have an easier way, an easier time understanding forwards infinity, or countable infinity, where like, okay, I can start at the number zero, and then count forever. Okay, well I had a start, so I can just keep going. What people have trouble with is, okay, I didn't have a start and I've always been counting. 


[00:16:00] Gina: I am. 


[00:16:02] Ben: Yes, ma'am. 


[00:16:02] Gina: He is. 


[00:16:03] Ben: Yes, he is. That is literally his name, but we'll probably get to that during the actual scriptures. 


[00:16:10] Gina: But that's like the description of his age, of his existence, like, he is. 


[00:16:16] Ben: So yeah, I think that's actually a very profound answer. The God that we worship gave to Moses is I Am. And when, when Christ speaks, and at other points where God himself passes word along to his prophets, he refers to events in the past with his name, I Am. 


[00:16:36] When Abraham was, I Am. Whatever will be, I currently am. His name itself is not, is an indication that he's not bound to time. All time is the present for him. He is beyond it. And that's another thing that we would have a tough time really grasping because we live life in terms of cause and effect one moment to the next. 


[00:16:57] We have a present, a past, and a future. God doesn't have a past and a future. He just has him. 


[00:17:03] Gina: He wasn't born and he will not die. 


[00:17:05] Ben: Correct. Now as far as that's possible, unfortunately there's no real way to give you how that's possible because Typically, when we explain how things are possible, we're referencing the cause and effect. 


[00:17:18] If you have someone who's beyond cause and effect, you can't say how something was caused. What we can do is look at the fact that, well, we exist. And let's say that you don't believe in God and you remove him entirely from the equation. Well, currently we're here. So what is it that you think caused us? 


[00:17:36] And if you're not super updated on the whole James Webb telescope stuff. And they're still going off of the Big Bang and the 13 billion years ago or so. Then, okay, so we all came from a singularity that expanded at a certain point. What was prior to the singularity? Well, nothing. Because the singularity was an explosion of time and of space and of matter. 


[00:18:01] There was no time before time. And thus there is nothing that could have kicked off This time. The start of time. You can't start time. Because if time doesn't exist, there's no thing that can start it. So, the problem with that, is that, well, there had to be something that allowed for the existence both of time and of space and of matter. 


[00:18:21] For us to explode into existence. And so there's been the presupposition, maybe there's the multiverse. There's some kind of thing that's constantly making universes over and over and over again. Pfft. Maybe, but the thing is, you haven't gone anywhere with that explanation. You're referring to something that's always existed, that has rules and laws, just like God, and that has always existed and has never had a start. 


[00:18:46] It may be that multiverse had a start, but then, okay, you haven't gone anywhere again. You're referring to a multiverse of a multiverse, and then a multiverse of a multiverse. I'm sorry, this is a bit of rambling, but the point is, no matter what, You can't escape the fact that at some point, you have to refer to something that had no beginning. 


[00:19:05] Either the universe itself is part of an endless cycle of creation and destruction of universes that has always existed and will continue to exist long after this universe ends, and has stretched on long before our universe even began, or we have a God who is the same. Always stretches on before, and will continue long after it's gone, if it ever ends. 


[00:19:27] So no matter what, we're kind of stuck with this issue. 


[00:19:32] Cody: Yeah. And I think you can get into some different details of why a God that stretches on forever, a creator that stretches on forever is more plausible than just a universe that constantly blows up and creates thing is plausible. But. At the end of the day, you have to have, like you said, some form of something that has existed forever. 


[00:20:00] Ben: And I'm glad you brought that up, Cody, because that kind of leads into our next question, which does have a series of things that we can refer to it. But the next question, is there any evidence for this version of God? So, you're kind of approaching it from the cosmological or the scientific argument. 


[00:20:17] Why don't you expound a little bit on that? 


[00:20:19] Cody: Basically, the, the cosmological arguments, whatever begins to exist has a cause of its beginning. The universe began to exist, therefore the universe has a cause of its beginning. Yeah. 


[00:20:36] Cosmological argument in shortest form. 


[00:20:39] Ben: And Dr. William Lane Craig has built a lot of his career around the cosmological arguments. If you guys want, you can check out his stuff because he covers this in depth in a lot of different ways and He brings a lot to the table as far as the science and the philosophy of it. 


[00:20:55] Essentially, yes, there's, the universe has a cause. At some point you have to go to an uncaused first cause. And that would be God, because he had no cause. He exists beyond the rules of causality of time. So, because of that, he caused the universe and that's how we ended up here. There's also the argument from design. 


[00:21:17] Where it's typically called intelligent design. And it's a bit more of a common scientific approach. It's some, something that Dr. David Berlinski talks a lot about. He would consider himself an agnostic, a skeptic, but he does believe that some form of God probably exists. And it's mostly because the universe itself, Appears to be created. 


[00:21:39] We can tell when things happen by accident. We can tell when there are patterns in the sand appear to be written, like words and letters and things, and we can tell when there are just random patterns that emerge in the sand that appear to have no rhyme or reason to it. We can tell when there are a bunch of bricks that have fallen into a mound and are chipped and just kind of ended up in that way, and we can tell when they've been stacked to form a house. 


[00:22:02] We can tell when there are things that have when things are put together that have And when we look at human beings, when we look at our genetic code, when we look at The things that we're able to do, we seem to be like incredibly capable machines. And we have DNA and we have machinations inside of us that seem to operate on a set of rules. 


[00:22:25] And they seem to have a higher function and a higher set of intentions and sub intentions. They, they seem to work in a way as something would be designed to work. It doesn't look like a shambled mound of mutations and calluses and tumors and stuff that just somehow works, and we don't know why. It all looks intentional. 


[00:22:46] And even people like Richard Dawkins, a very famous atheist, will refer to the fact that at the very least it looks designed. So, The argument from design is one of the more powerful ones. Typically the rebuttal to that is, well, we just live in a multiverse or the universe is just so big that the odds of something like us happening are essentially guaranteed because the universe is just so darn big, you guys. 


[00:23:09] And that's, I don't find that to be particularly compelling. I think we can go into that another time. If we decide we want to cover just this, but. 


[00:23:19] Cody: I don't know, I wanted to cover cheese people. 


[00:23:22] Ben: Cheese people. Yeah. The, one of the easiest rebuttals to the idea that, well, the universe is just so darn big that anything can happen. 


[00:23:29] Well, do you believe in Batman? 


[00:23:32] Gina: Yeah. 


[00:23:33] Ben: Batman totally exists. 


[00:23:35] Gina: He's just a rich guy with a car. 


[00:23:37] Ben: Well more than that, he lives in Gotham City. Does Gotham City exist? 


[00:23:41] Gina: In my heart it does. Well, don't worry, 


[00:23:44] Ben: because I have a 100 percent fool proof answer. Proof that Batman exists. Is there a tiny chance that a place like Earth would happen by accident? 


[00:24:00] Well, scientists claim yes. Is there a tiny chance that life would appear on a planet like Earth? Well, yes. Is there a tiny chance that something like humans would develop because of that life? Answer is yes. Is there a tiny chance that on this planet, with this life that is exactly like humans, that has developed just as we are, there is a place called Gotham? 


[00:24:21] Yes. Is there a tiny chance that there is one of those humans in that place called Gotham where a guy develops who is a billionaire and his parents died exactly the way it's described in DC Comics? Yes. Well, yeah. And is there a tiny chance that this guy, whose name is Bruce Wayne, in this other planet that isn't Earth, would then go on to fight crime. 


[00:24:44] As Batman. 


[00:24:47] Ben: Yes. Batman. 


[00:24:49] Ben: And this is the problem with saying that anything that is possible because the universe is so darn big. Basically has to happen, that it will happen. Because literally anything that you can conceive of that is physically possible, you can't say doesn't happen. You can't say that in this same hypothetical world, that another person from another planet that is bigger than Earth shows up, and his name, once he crash lands on Earth, is Clark Kent. 


[00:25:20] And he was from a bigger planet than Earth, which means that he's stronger than Earth. Then Bruce Wayne. 


[00:25:24] Gina: Now you can't even push the little eerie alien button on your mixer. I 


[00:25:29] Cody: would push the crickets button. 


[00:25:33] Ben: Is there a possibility that there is a planet larger than Earth that sustains life that is humanoid? 


[00:25:37] Sure. Is there a possibility that there would be a guy named Zor El who would send his son Kal El after his planet is about to be destroyed? Maybe. A really small chance, but it doesn't matter how small the chance is. 


[00:25:51] Cody: On the spinoff, 


[00:25:52] Ben: we 


[00:25:52] Cody: have 


[00:25:53] Gina: You know what, with the metaverse, all of this is possible. 


[00:25:56] Ben: Yes, all things are possible with the metaverse. 


[00:25:58] Yeah. Just like with God. 


[00:26:01] Ben (2): Oh man. I'm just kidding folks, that is 


[00:26:02] Ben: not even remotely close to true. 


[00:26:03] Cody: Zuckerberg would love you 


[00:26:05] Ben: right now. I'm sure he would. Not. I don't think he and I would get along very well, because I don't get along with lizard people. 


[00:26:14] Cody: Which two can exist. 


[00:26:17] Ben: So yeah, that's more or less covers the argument from science. 


[00:26:21] Gina, was there anything you wanted to add to that? 


[00:26:24] Gina: I just think it's silly to base an argument on a possibility that we have no evidence for. Um, we have evidence for God's existence from science, from history, from morality, from so many different sources, and especially from history, just the way that the Bible played out. 


[00:26:43] We know, just historically, people who are not Christians acknowledge that the things that happen in the Bible really happened. So saying hypotheticals about other planets and other people and aliens and multi universe and all of that, like, Okay, but where's your proof? That's all. 


[00:27:03] Ben: Well, yeah, so there is the theory Occam's Razor, which states that in the absence of conclusive evidence, the theory that takes the least number of assumptions is typically the correct one. 


[00:27:14] And I agree with you, Gina. I think the reality is that you have to take a large number of assumptions to claim that everything has happened purely by accident, undesigned, and, you know, And we don't know how it happened. It just kind of did and whatever 


[00:27:29] Gina: chance and we come in and we leave and we make no impact. 


[00:27:33] Like that's a really sad and meaningless existence. 


[00:27:36] Ben: Absolutely. 


[00:27:38] Gina: Yeah. 


[00:27:39] Ben: But I think that does lead well into the next argument, which you briefly mentioned there, which is the argument of history. So there is the history of Israel, which is recorded in the Old Testament, as well as a couple other sources outside, but not too many. 


[00:27:52] More or less, the Old Testament is the main source of information for Israel's history. And it's tough to go through all of the sources on this. There are a lot of different people who have written at length, and I think Cody probably can fill in a bit more on this as well, because I'm not super versed in everything outside of the Old Testament. 


[00:28:09] The Old Testament, but there are a lot of different archaeological digs that have been done. There are a lot of different people who've written at length. There are certain people like Lee Strobel who have written books kind of compiling some of this information. And I'd say in general, Lee Strobel is actually a great resource for most any question that you have. 


[00:28:26] Whether it's miracles or, you know, Jesus Christ himself, or the reliability of the gospel. He's written books about most of these things, and all of his books are compilations of other people's work, so you can reference them, and go deep down these various rabbit holes that exist for the evidences of the Bible. 


[00:28:43] But, without going too deep into that, essentially, we are fairly certain that the biblical representations of Israel's history are accurate. It is what happened, and at the very least, The Hebrew traditions state very clearly that God has been involved in their country from the beginning and even prior to it. 


[00:29:06] That the people who founded the country, the patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, 


[00:29:14] They, they all knew God, this specific God, Yahweh, even though they didn't know his name. And God has always been involved in Israel's history, its founding, its creation, their exodus out of Israel, the foundations of their laws which were given directly by God, and the prophets who constantly kept bringing Israel back from its crooked ways, and the judges who existed before many of the prophets, who were leaders who were directly chosen by God rather than a formal government. 


[00:29:41] It's like, they are so deeply ingrained and intertwined with God and his word. An entire country for thousands of years. And it's tough to say that all of that, 100 percent of it, is wrong. It's Just stories that were told. Because when you look at it, the Bible repeatedly references areas, and things, and landmarks. 


[00:30:05] And it says, go here and see for yourself. This, it makes references, I believe, to the twelve stones that were taken from the Jordan River, and were piled, and exist to this day. The exist to its, exist to this day line is said repeatedly in the Old Testament. And it's the writer's way of letting you know, this happened, And we have things that are left over from it, and you can see it for yourself. 


[00:30:31] Cody: Yeah, no, I mean, I think that's a huge one, and Lee Strobel's great, I like him, and I can't remember the author of it, but Evidence That Demands a Verdict is a really good book. And, uh, Habermas? 


[00:30:45] Ben: Gary Habermas, yeah. 


[00:30:47] Cody: Habermas, he has some good historical evidence that you can appreciate even if you aren't of the Christian persuasion. 


[00:30:54] Yeah. But even just throughout our modern history, the Bible is used to fact check a lot of other different cultures and archeological digs and different things that have happened throughout time are basically filtered through the Bible and I want to say it's the, Smithsonian has an article about the, how many different points are fact checked by the Bible and confirmed by the Bible that they find outside of biblical history that are confirmed by biblical history. 


[00:31:29] So it is the foundation of a lot of what we have today and have proven and take as fact and history. But yeah, there's still so much question about this book that we're basing a lot of our current history off of. 


[00:31:48] Ben: Yeah, very true. And so that, that does lead nicely into the, the next argument. The argument from morality. 


[00:31:57] So, My take on this argument is, and it was, it was posed very well by one of the, the greater, more well known apologists, Ravi Zacharias, and whatever you think of Ravi, because his life was 


[00:32:11] Gina: Didn't end well. 


[00:32:12] Ben: No. He was one of the Christian leaders who did not finish very well at all. But a lot of his teachings were very solid. 


[00:32:19] And one of the things that he talked about is that if you presuppose that there is some kind of moral law. You have to also acknowledge that there is a moral law giver. Now, there are a lot of people who argue, Well, no, we don't. There's just, moral laws exist. Okay, well, when exactly did they start existing? 


[00:32:39] Because, at the very beginning of the universe, there was no moral law that stated that it was wrong for galaxies to form a certain way. It would be unethical. That doesn't even make sense. When the first life forms formed, the first bacteria, if you subscribe to the theory of evolution, Was there an improper way? 


[00:32:56] For a single celled organism to conduct itself. No. What about the first multicellular organisms? What about fish? What about plants? Is there a ficus code of law? Ficus code of conduct? No. Yes. Okay, sorry, what is it? What is the moral law for a ficus? 


[00:33:14] Gina: Be nice. 


[00:33:16] Ben: That's all they can be. 


[00:33:18] Cody: I don't know, there's some mean ficuses out there. 


[00:33:22] Yeah, let's move it on to animals. I mean, let's talk about dogs. I mean, is there a certain way that dogs should act? Well, around humans, certainly, but to each other? No. But the point is, there's nothing in the animal kingdom that indicates that there are proper ways of conducting yourself. Moral good, moral evil. 


[00:33:44] Once you get to humanity. Suddenly, all of nature seems to be in opposition to us and what we are supposed to do. Every culture, regardless of whether it subscribes to Christianity or not, has a code of conduct that you're supposed to follow. And even those codes of conduct that stand in opposition to the teachings of Christianity typically demand that Christian like conduct from the people who interact with them. 


[00:34:11] They demand honor, they demand kindness, they demand respect. If they break a treaty with somebody, they say that there had to be a very good reason for it, and if someone breaks a treaty with them, they claim that it was, there was no possible explanation for this, that it's the greatest injustice. 


[00:34:26] Everyone expects some version, no matter who it is. of the Biblical teachings that God gave to us, either through the commandments or through Christ's teachings as well. Some variant of that, or at the very least we long for it. We long to be forgiven of things. We know that we have done wrong, that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. 


[00:34:48] Gina: I, uh, I sometimes, so we raise butterflies in backyard. I say we, Cody does not raise butterflies. He has no interest. He gets very annoyed with me when I sit out there for like three hours and watch one hatch. But I was sitting outside a few weeks ago with our oldest daughter and we were talking about how they just know what to do. 


[00:35:06] They eat their milkweed, they climb up the fence, they make their chrysalis, they emerge and they fly away. And then the cycle repeats. And we were talking about like. What a blessing it must be to not have the consciousness to question what you're supposed to do. Like, it's so challenging to have the consciousness and the questioning that we do, and the curiosity, and in some way that has to mirror God, but I struggle with this argument of morality and good and evil just because I do think that evil is rampant right now, and it is changing morality into something that it's really not. 


[00:35:49] It kind of leads me into my question about, as far as experiential or emotional experience, does that count? Do you think that counts as logical, reasonable evidence of God? Because I think we get really caught up on like my truth and not the truth. And then we lose the argument altogether. 


[00:36:09] Cody: Yeah, I mean, for me, personal revelation or personal experience is a lot hard because it's not empirical evidence. 


[00:36:18] So it's not good for everybody. A lot of people can say, jumped over the moon and believe it. But it's hard to prove that to somebody else or even make a reasonable argument for that to, to somebody. Okay. 


[00:36:34] Gina: One for me that's been hard is like, just word of mouth, like, Oh, I heard a story about somebody experiencing this. 


[00:36:42] And I'm like, yeah, okay, well, I'll see, I believe it when I see it. And that's, I think, a stance that we have to combat with the existence of God because they're not going to see it yet. 


[00:36:55] Ben: So my position on this is actually that yes, not only is the experiential emotional evidence, but I would say it's actually probably the most compelling of all the evidences for God, which may sound a bit strange coming from me as I'm someone who's professed to be a very rational, yeah, very reasonable person. 


[00:37:15] The reason that I say this. You're right, there can be people who say, Oh, I just, I was alone in my room, y'all, and the other day, I felt God speak to me, and he's like, Girl, you can go out, and you can do whatever it is that you want, because no matter what, I'm gonna love you. Oh yes, I'm gonna love you, and you can marry that man who's a bit of a deadbeat and isn't good for you, but you know, I'm gonna love you anyway, and you're gonna love him, and you're gonna have a great life with him. 


[00:37:41] Oh yes, that's what he told me. Like, yeah, there's that kind of thing. We do have a lot of people who say, well, God will validate whatever it is that I feel, and what I feel is this. And they equate their feelings with God. That's not really what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is, there are people like my mother and my father. 


[00:38:00] People who, I think the best example would probably be my father and his early life. Where his grandmother was very actively involved in the church and was very active in teaching him about God. And she became very ill. And my dad was very sad. He was completely struck by this because he loved his grandmother. 


[00:38:22] She was a big part of his life. And he felt the Lord speak to him. And said, Can you go on without your grandmother, essentially? And he said, No, I can't. I need her. And the Lord said, Okay. She'll get better. It's okay. She won't die until you're ready. And that became true. She didn't die until many years later, after which he could see that she was in pain. 


[00:38:46] She wasn't dying. But she was in a lot of pain and he remembered what the Lord told him, and he said a prayer, Lord, it's okay. I can let go, I can do it, I'm gonna be fine. And she died shortly after. That is the foundation for a person's whole life. A life of knowing God, truly knowing Him. You can't build on a bunch of stories. 


[00:39:11] Gina: Right. 


[00:39:12] Ben: I can talk to someone to death about information and knowledge and statistics and different people and Gary Habermas and the rebuttals to Bart Ehrman and all that nonsense. In the end, the only way they're going to really know God is if they know that God loves and cares for them. And the only way you're going to know that is one, if you hear about other people telling you what God has done for them, and two, if you've encountered it yourself. 


[00:39:37] Gina: Right. Thank you. 


[00:39:39] Ben: No problem. And I know that you've got. Similar stuff to that. 


[00:39:43] Gina: Yeah, I mean, I wasn't raised like you guys, so my knowledge of God is much more experiential than it is logical, or I haven't read all these 30 books sitting here. I've peeked over his shoulder a few times, and I've done my own studies, but It didn't take Cody Talking me into believing it took me Experiencing God myself in order to have that relationship and really believe so 


[00:40:11] Cody: and I think everybody has to get there I think we've talked before about the you can get 85 percent there, but the other 15 percent you're gonna, you can get 85 percent there logically through study and coming to a reasonable decision that Christianity is the correct worldview, but for the other 15 percent to be bought all the way in, you're gonna have to kind of experience God on your own. 


[00:40:38] Ben: When you see the kind of change that God, and specifically Christ, can make in someone's life. Like, my mother is an incredible example of that. She was a part of the Catholic Church when she was younger, but her whole family turned their backs on the Catholic Church and God generally, and they became militant atheists. 


[00:40:54] They really didn't like God, and that, that became ingrained in my mother and who she was. And then eventually she turned back to God after she married my father, and my dad turned back to Christ as well. And, the changes that she went through, the kind of person that she became, as a result of turning to Christ, she's one of the most noble and incredible women that I know. 


[00:41:18] And, When you hear her full story, I don't have the right to tell her full story, and I wouldn't want to put her and her family in the spot. But to know where she's come from, and to know the things that she's overcome, and to see the kind of peace that she's had, especially with the death of my brother, and the things that she's been able to go through with the troubles that my own family has caused her at times. 


[00:41:38] She's always been the harbor in the storm. She's always been the person you can turn to. And if you ask her how she's able to do that, she will point to Christ and say that He is the So yes, that's by far, I mean, I'm glad you put this point in here because you can argue science and history and morality till you're blue in the face. 


[00:42:00] But in the end, if you've met the man, you don't need it. 


[00:42:03] Gina: Right. 


[00:42:05] Cody: Yeah, you stop worrying about that as much for sure. But that brings us to the next point is why choose Christianity when there is so many religions available? I mean, you can drive around anywhere in the US and you're going to find 15 different religious gathering places, all with different beliefs, different gods, different deities, some multiple And all of 


[00:42:30] Gina: them with convicted believers who think that they have experienced their god too. 


[00:42:36] Cody: And that they're correct in their belief. Right. Yep. So, why Christianity? 


[00:42:43] Ben: Well, the first question, is it true? It's kind of irrelevant to ask about all of those other gods if they're not real. And you can have whatever feelings that you want about things. We can all base feelings around things we eventually can come to know aren't true. 


[00:42:59] If I think that my brother hates me because he said something to me one time, and it was a comment that he made haphazardly, and he wasn't even thinking about it, and then eventually we talk, finally, and he's like, no, dude, I love you. Why would I, why would you think that I hate you? For however much time I spent not talking to him, I thought that he hated me. 


[00:43:16] It doesn't influence reality. It doesn't mean that those feelings about things aren't real, those feelings are absolutely real. But So are you 


[00:43:26] Cody: saying perception is not reality? Unfortunately that is exactly what I'm saying. 


[00:43:32] Gina: Darn. Meow. 


[00:43:35] Ben: But Gina is still a cat. 


[00:43:37] Gina: So Ben, you wrote on our notes universalism and I would like to hear where you were taking it because I had some thoughts. 


[00:43:46] Ben: Well. One of the things that a lot of people put forward is, well, okay, so there's so many different religions out there, why would I even choose one if God exists? And, you know, there's probably any number of ways to get to Him. And if He really loves me, then He's gonna meet me halfway. He's gonna meet me where I'm at. 


[00:44:03] And that tends to be what Universalism is. It's this idea that God is truly loving, and in order for Him to be truly loving, He's going to manifest Himself in whatever way it is the best way to reach Him. Is he the version that the Muslims worship? Well, absolutely, he has to be. And if you worship him truly and fully with your whole heart as a Muslim, you'll reach him. 


[00:44:26] Do you not really follow God, but you're just kind of an agnostic who believes in some kind of God who exists out there? Well, God's gonna meet you halfway if you're a decent person and you really are pursuing this thing you don't know. Then God's going to meet you there and he's going to still love you and bring you up in heaven when all is said and done. 


[00:44:43] No matter what religion, what relationship you have with God, if you really are focused on trying to get to him, he will come to you. 


[00:44:53] Gina: But if Jesus is true, then we can't leave him out. And by following religions that do not acknowledge Jesus, they're missing the most critical part of our eternity. 


[00:45:13] Cody: I mean, and Christianity is not necessarily a club, but, you know, there's strict rules to being a Christian. 


[00:45:22] God's described as a jealous God and you can't throw every other God in there and pay them their dues and still think that is not affecting the God of the Bible. So, not all religion can coexist together, if you follow those religions to what they are to the fullest. And, I'm not too familiar with other religions and their beliefs, but besides Hinduism, I don't know many other religions that allow Tons of gods in that are outside of their general 


[00:45:54] Ben: core It's been said that it's a very common thing for people to say where all religions are basically the same That there's superficially different but fundamentally the exact same I would argue that it's the inverse and it has been argued that it's the inverse that they're superficially the same but fundamentally different And when you look at the heart of each individual religion, they're trying to get to something very different But they all almost all Without exception, follow the same idea of you have to do something to earn. 


[00:46:23] You have to give your life in service to the people in order to earn salvation. You have to kill a certain number of people to cross the great river and achieve your eternal Valhalla, or whatever it is. They're the five pillars of Islam, in the Muslim faith. There's, uh, Certain things in pretty much every single religion that tell you how you have to act in order to earn some greater powers, love, and attention. 


[00:46:51] Christianity is different in that it says you cannot earn it. No matter what, all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. You are a fallen creature. There is nothing you can do to make up for that fallenness, that darkness that lives within each of us. And Christ God has already met you halfway by taking whatever punishment you deserve for all of that and taking it on himself. 


[00:47:16] And all you have to do is now turn to God and say, God, I want to follow you. I will accept the thing that you have done, the service you have done, the sacrifice you have done on my behalf. You have to accept that. And what I find a lot of people who take the universal Unitarian thing is they're essentially saying, well, it doesn't really matter what I do. 


[00:47:38] I'm a decent person by most metrics, and I don't really want to put in any work to find out who God is. But God's definitely going to care about what happens to me, and I don't have to do anything specifically. And I don't really want to. I want to do what I want to do. 


[00:47:55] Gina: But God's not going to judge you. 


[00:47:58] Ben: Yeah. Unless he does, that's always the cast there until he does. Yeah. They say that he's not gonna judge you except if he does judge you, because there are certain things that are no nos, no matter what, no matter how accepting you may feel you are. 


[00:48:10] Gina: I mean, unless you're a minor attracted person. Yes. 


[00:48:13] That's 


[00:48:13] Ben: what I mean. 


[00:48:13] Gina: Unless you're identifying as something that you're not being harsh. But 


[00:48:19] Cody: no, I mean, and universalism is rampant in the Christian Church in America anyway of. I'd separate it a little bit between the, what is it, the Unitarianism, because they believe there is no hell, which I don't get how you come to that conclusion reading the Bible and believing in Christianity, but it's also a very, a vein that is picking up steam in the church 


[00:48:49] Gina: today. 


[00:48:49] Our daughter is turning 12. And we have a blended family, so Cody is the stepfather, and our daughter goes and visits her dad. And one of the arguments that he makes against God is, well, if God is going to, he says, I'm a relatively good person, and if God is going to send me to hell anyway, that's pretty messed up, and why would I want to believe in that kind of a God? 


[00:49:13] And this is also the child who has a Jehovah's Witness grandmother, a Muslim stepmother, and just a whole bunch of other religions. I don't know, this subject specifically hits home for us because we've been trying to battle these conversations with a 12 year old for a really long time, and these are questions that she desperately wants to have clear and concise answers for because they attack her so often with judgment for her faith, but I think the harsh reality in proving and sharing about the existence of God is that you're always going to have people who say, that's just not true, no matter how much evidence you bring them. 


[00:49:55] So, is there anything we can discern about God without using the Bible? 


[00:50:00] Cody: That's a tough one. That's a common theme for skeptics. What happened to all of the people who didn't get evangelized or those remote cultures, do they have a chance at God? And usually what I, what I believe and what I think is Abraham, Isaac, All of them didn't have the Bible and they still had direct interaction with God. 


[00:50:28] He made himself known. So, what would stop God from personally revealing himself to other people? When you get into other cultures and other stories about having a, a God that is one and that's a whole different other vein, but Also, I believe it's Romans 1, 16 and 17 that tells us that God has made himself known by creation and that no one can live without excuse. 


[00:50:57] The creation and the world we live in is a good enough explanation to how we can come to a reasonable decision that there is a God and try to come in contact with that God outside of the Bible. 


[00:51:14] Ben: So there was an attempt by C. S. Lewis through the work Mere Christianity, which was a series of talks that he did over the radio, and was eventually compiled into a book. 


[00:51:24] But he made a stab at trying to get to the point of the biblical God without specifically citing the Bible. And I would highly recommend that everyone take a look at it. It is great fundamental reading, both if you just want to understand the Christian perspective, and if you want to know your foundational ideas a lot better as a Christian. 


[00:51:48] But, he does cover the ideas that, when you look at nature, kind of like what I was talking about before, when you look at nature seems to be completely alien to us as people. It seems to operate on a savage scale, a primal scale, where there is no right and wrong, there's a lot of destruction, there's a lot of things that we feel are very dark, and yet we, for whatever reason, when we fall into that same pattern, that's considered evil. 


[00:52:17] And most, if not all, civilizations pull themselves away from that, and one way or another, they all seem to have some version of morality. Not as different as A lot of people would argue when you really look at it. Because at the very least, they still have ways they would prefer to be treated by others, and there are still certain ways that even if they will act, if they will act with aggression towards other people, if that same level of aggression is enacted on them, they consider it to be evil. 


[00:52:48] So yeah, we're all hypocrites, we all recognize that. But it seems that there is a kind of universal way that we all seem to want to be treated. As humans. And What C. S. Lewis more or less refers to is the idea that a fish doesn't think it weird that it's wet when it's in the ocean. We think it's weird that we're here. 


[00:53:08] We think it's weird that we experience things, that we experience morality, and we get this feeling that things are wrong, that the world itself isn't right. Why would we feel that way if this is really the way the world, one, has always been, and two, is meant to be? 


[00:53:27] Gina: That's our most exploited emotion. It's what is running Money in america right now. 


[00:53:34] It's where everybody's money is going is to fill this void 


[00:53:37] Ben: the sense of unfairness this Inequality this injustice that seems to exist 


[00:53:43] Gina: I got my brick right here. I found a desire within myself that no experience in this world can satisfy the most probable Explanation is that I was made for another world C. 


[00:53:53] S. Lewis. 


[00:53:54] Ben: Yep That's a good quote. That's a very good quote. C. S. Lewis is kind of full of those. 


[00:53:59] Gina: I know. 


[00:54:01] Cody: Yeah, he's a good one liner. 


[00:54:04] Ben: But in the end, I think there are limits to how far you can get without the Gospels. I think that you can learn a decent amount about God. You can come to an understanding of who it is he should be. 


[00:54:18] Oddly enough, C. S. Lewis wife, Joy. It talks about her coming to God. And one of the reasons she ended up turning to Christianity specifically was because of her experience with God separate from Christianity, where one night when her husband was nowhere to be found and they had no clue where he was, and she was terrified and she was sitting all alone. 


[00:54:39] She described a moment where God was stalking her like a cat. And at that instant, that tiny moment of complete vulnerability, God pounced. And she felt there was someone in that room with her in 30 seconds of her life. She felt God was physically there. And she felt everything that God felt. And it was like trying to fit the ocean into a thimble. 


[00:55:04] And she could feel the immense compassion and the immense love and the immense caring. And everything that comes with the biblical version of God that we know was there. And so eventually when she was trying to find the God that she felt, the God that she knew existed, she came upon the Gospels. And she was a Jew, so she'd kind of been trained to feel innate hostility towards just the very name of Jesus. 


[00:55:34] But when she really looked at it, she knew, without a shadow of a doubt, that Jesus was the person she met. So I think there are valuable things you can learn separate from the transcript. From the doctrine of Christ and from the Bible itself. But in the end, most things that people discover will lead them to it. 


[00:55:57] Gina: That's beautiful. Good job. Thank 


[00:56:00] Ben: Good job, Joy. 


[00:56:03] Gina: So can we trust our feelings, our gut or discernment without using or even knowing the Bible? I say no. It's okay, you can say no too. If that's what you believe. 


[00:56:19] Cody: I mean, I would say no without using the Bible. I mean, if It depends on where you base it. Like, do I look for the answers of life? 


[00:56:28] Do I need to This financial investment. Where is the Bible gonna tell me which stock I need to put money in? No. Or like 


[00:56:36] Gina: feelings of safety. 


[00:56:37] Cody: But filtering, like my world view is from the Bible and my decisions are filtered through that world view. In that sense, yes. If that makes sense. 


[00:56:48] Gina: Yeah. I kind of ask this question with Ephesians 4 14 in mind. 


[00:56:55] Which is, then we will no longer be infants tossed back and forth by the waves and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming. I know that's not necessarily talking about emotions, but that's how I feel emotionally a lot. Like it's up and down and it's tossing me back and forth in the waves. 


[00:57:18] And I can't trust my own emotions the way that I can trust the stability of God. If that makes sense, 


[00:57:25] Cody: it makes perfect sense. 


[00:57:28] Gina: But that's something I've had to learn cause I used to get caught up and almost like addicted to those big feelings and it would prevent me from having the stability in my relationship with God. 


[00:57:39] And it was sort of like I depended on those big feelings and big experiences in order to Feel like God was with me and feel like he was real and it took me a while to realize he's always with me And he's always real 


[00:57:53] Cody: Yeah But I think if you turn that around and you do filter it through a Christian worldview those feelings can be used for Your benefit rather than your detriment. 


[00:58:05] Gina: No, I think it's just like figuring out what is reliable like testing everything and If you're testing everything you have to have Like a rule to test it against and scripture provides that 


[00:58:19] Ben: for sure So to an extent I do agree However, I would actually argue that our feelings, our gut, and our discernment can be more reliable than It's argued in Christian teachings a lot of the time. 


[00:58:38] One of the reasons I give is because, one, it's said in the Bible that God writes His commandments on our hearts. And it's not just Christians and Jews and whoever it is that believes in God. It's all of us, so that we have no excuse. If we truly have no excuse, then it should also be possible for someone who is not a Christian, someone who is not acquainted with the Bible, to have those commandments written on his or her heart. 


[00:59:02] And to be able to make discernments about what is right or what is wrong based on the commandments written on their heart. 


[00:59:08] Gina: Definitely. 


[00:59:09] Ben: So, if a person is truly pursuing what is right and what is wrong, they should be able to, using their gut, using their discernment. Know what the right decision is. And I would say a good example of this is actually Dr. 


[00:59:22] Jordan Peterson. Because he's not a Christian specifically. Though he's grown a lot closer to that in recent years. And he's studied the Bible a lot and he has his series on the Daily Wire. But in talks with how he started on this path a long time ago. He would, he, the story goes, I believe, that he would be talking to people, Oh, sorry, I need to use the Jordan Peterson. 


[00:59:45] I'd be talking to people, and I would be in conversation with them, and I would say certain things. Are you 


[00:59:49] Gina: Kermit, or are you Jordan Peterson? I'm Dr. 


[00:59:52] Ben: Jordan Peterson. He sounds exactly like Kermit. It's part of the joke with him, and he's aware of it. It is very funny, and he's a good joker. He's a good sport about it. 


[01:00:01] But yeah, he'd be saying how he'd be talking to people and he'd be in conversation with them and he'd say something and there was a tiny voice inside of him that would say, well, you don't really believe that, that idea isn't yours, you know, that's not true. You're saying that just to get on this person's good side. 


[01:00:20] And he said, I realized that most of the things I'm saying, I don't believe or are wrong or are lies or make me weak. And I made a conscious. Decision to listen to that voice and I stopped saying those things and I cut out 90 percent of the things that I said but that remaining 10 percent was strong and I built my life around that and a similar thing was said by C. 


[01:00:44] S. Lewis that his turn to Christ actually started around the time where he made a conscious decision to start listening to his conscience I do think that there are a lot of people who make claims about their feelings and their emotions and they follow those I And they substitute their feelings and their emotions in temporary things that give pleasure or comfort With things that they know to be true. 


[01:01:05] I do think that ultimately Everybody does know what right and wrong is But right and wrong are difficult things Especially if you want to follow the truth if you want to dedicate your life to being good, that's really hard. 


[01:01:19] Gina: It's hard to stay relevant And people want to be relevant. 


[01:01:23] Ben: Yes. And so the easiest thing to do is to lie to yourself. 


[01:01:27] And say, it doesn't matter. Or say, no, what I'm doing right now is good. And you can typically tell people who are lying to themselves. Even people who are lying to themselves can tell when other people are lying to themselves. And you can tell the absolute hell that a person can put themselves in by lying to themselves. 


[01:01:44] So yeah, all that is to say, I do think it's possible. And I do think it's actually fairly common for people who don't know. The story of God or the Gospels. To have an intuition that is right on these things. Because God has ultimately written it on all of our hearts, so we have no excuse. 


[01:01:59] Cody: But if God is real Why does it seem that he is so hidden to us? 


[01:02:11] Ben: Probably Because we're not looking. Oh 


[01:02:16] Cody: Care to expand on that? I have Some discussion on this one, but 


[01:02:20] Ben: Sure, and I'll be quick, because I've been talking for a while, and I would like to hear your points on this as well as Gina's. But, for me personally, there was a time fairly recently where I was seeking God for something very specific in my life. 


[01:02:34] And the church had gone through a period of prayer and fasting, and I had been seeking for that specific thing, and I didn't hear from God. And then I had another time of specifically just fasting like a pure fast because the church's fast was a bit different There was we were just abstaining from certain things And I did a full fast of not eating for about a day and a half and I didn't hear from the lord directly for anything But my life started to change very quickly after that oddly enough cody the day after I finished that fast brought up this podcast and oddly enough You The day after I finished, I was looking into starting to do Russian Samba, which has been a great add to my life, and there was another friend of mine who suddenly contacted me and asked me about a couple of different things, which I won't go into, but my life started changing dramatically after that point. 


[01:03:27] And the Lord did speak to my heart with something, and he said, If I gave you the answer to the question you're asking, would you accept it? If you're seeking God. And you think that he's hidden. If he revealed himself to you, as he really is, would you accept him? I think for most of us the answer is no. 


[01:03:54] Because what if you say that you're looking for him and you find him, and he says, everything you are doing is wrong. Everything. And I demand your whole life. I demand everything that you are, and everything you will ever be, will be. And your past, and your loves, and your hates, and your fears. I demand all of that. 


[01:04:16] Come and follow me. If that's who God is, are you the type of person who would say, Okay. 


[01:04:25] Cody: That's a good question. 


[01:04:27] Ben: Now I'm not saying that God would demand all of that from you necessarily. 


[01:04:31] Gina: But he has. 


[01:04:32] Ben: But he has, yes. There are people who've been asked to do any number of different things. 


[01:04:39] Gina: Kill their first born son. 


[01:04:41] Ben: And ultimately, he wasn't killed, but yes. Right, 


[01:04:44] Gina: but we're not asked to do that kind of stuff, and yet we don't even make the smallest sacrifices a lot of times. 


[01:04:49] Ben: No. So that's my feeling on it. It isn't truly that God is hidden. It's that if he were to reveal himself to us, we would reject him. And so to keep us from the ultimate sin of rejecting him directly after he reveals himself to you, he holds himself back, and he slowly, Agonizingly slowly at times, reveals himself to us in ways we can accept. 


[01:05:13] At first through our logic and reasoning, if that's how we're able to understand him. At first through our emotion and our feelings, if that's the only way we can understand him. But very slowly, over time, we start to see him. 


[01:05:26] Cody: I like that. 


[01:05:27] Gina: It's really interesting how you just described that. Cause I had a dream this week. 


[01:05:32] That, like, Jesus was coming back, and when I realized what was going on, I, like, yelled no. Cause I wasn't ready. I didn't have my kids with me and we weren't prepared and together. And then I realized like the horrible fact that I said no to Jesus coming back. And then my dream, I was like, yes, come, I'm sorry. 


[01:05:54] And it was like, the moon was like a timer and it was like counting down and I hadn't missed the boat, but just my attitude, like my heart posture about seeing Jesus, like in person on the earth. I was like, panicking about all of the things that I was worried about, instead of just being obedient and, I don't know, worshipping Jesus in all of his glory. 


[01:06:19] And we spend a lot of time looking for somebody who's already here. So, I don't know, that was the biggest thing for me in becoming a Christian, was the realization that through everything I've ever been through, and I've been through a lot, God was there and kept me alive when I should not have survived and protected me from people and things and situations that in hindsight I didn't realize and now that I can look back at the whole picture, like he's always been there and I missed him. 


[01:06:48] He didn't miss me. So for those who feel like God is hidden, he's actually with you right, right now. He's omnipresent, all knowing, and he's not hiding. 


[01:07:01] Cody: Oh, I like that. I'd come at it from a little bit of a different angle. Definitely agree with what you both said, but Also, to me, if Just, we have the Bible and that is how we understand God. 


[01:07:19] One of the ways we can understand God. And we learn a lot about his character through the Bible. We understand that he is a relational God and wants that authentic, more authentic relationship than just kind of this self imposed relationship with his people. And if God was ever present from just start to finish, and I guess I should lead with that there, there is in the Bible, this holiness aspect to God that we can't really comprehend and what that demands. 


[01:07:52] And obviously sin is the separation from our true communication and communion with God. And we still live in a fallen world and that has sin present. So there is some disconnect there, but if we're living and we're still sinning, and every time we sin there's this giant sword that follows us around in the sky that strikes us down, would you choose to follow God, if, or, or choose to love God, if that was the case, it would be more a relational love out of fear rather than a true, okay, I buy what you're saying. 


[01:08:31] I understand you. I love you for the sacrifices that you made for me. I think it's a lot different. I think he is hidden because if he wasn't and the, the holiness and perfection that he demands, Couldn't be known by us, but also if you look at any theophany in the Bible, most of the time those people fall down and cower in fear when they see God, and I don't think that's the relationship He wants with us. 


[01:09:05] Ben: Absolutely not. I agree. 


[01:09:08] Gina: That was beautiful. 


[01:09:09] Ben: Absolutely. 


[01:09:11] Gina: So, is it even necessary for us to acknowledge God's existence? 


[01:09:18] Cody: Is that a real question? 


[01:09:21] Gina: It's written on my paper, I had to ask. 


[01:09:24] Ben: Oh, darn it. Foiled again, curses. I mean, yeah, I would say that it is absolutely necessary to acknowledge God. I do think that there are a lot of people who don't. 


[01:09:36] I think there are a lot of people who feel like, Okay, I'm alive, I continue to exist as I have throughout my entire life. Throwing God into the equation isn't going to change anything, because I'm still me. And what on earth does a big guy in the sky care about what it is that I do? But in the end, one, if you're even interested in the truth, yes, objectively, if God exists, if the ultimate father of creation who made you and all before you and everything around you, if that guy exists, yeah, that's worth knowing and that's worth acknowledging. 


[01:10:09] Especially if he is the version that is presented by both the Jews and the Christians and even the Muslims. who is aware of you specifically and is aware of what you're doing and has passed down commandments of what you should be doing. Yeah, obviously it's important for you to know, to acknowledge that he's there, because that's part of not just acknowledging reality, but the first step towards learning what it is that you should be doing, what your purpose is, and how to fulfill that purpose. 


[01:10:44] Cody: No, I like that, and for me I agree that it does. Demand Acknowledgement And there's a guy that used to go to our church that used to tell this funny story about how the first time he told his wife that he loved her she didn't respond for weeks and he went in to say when Jesus sacrificed himself on the cross for us that was a that was an expression that demands a response And I, I agree. 


[01:11:17] It demands a response. It demands acknowledgement that the creator of our lives would put his own on the line for us to be in communion with us. It demands acknowledgement. 


[01:11:34] Gina: And there's a certain element of declaration that goes with salvation. So, Salvation requires an acknowledgement. 


[01:11:45] Ben: Absolutely, you can't acknowledge something that isn't there or that isn't real. 


[01:11:51] Gina: Thanks for tuning in to Logic of God. If you liked what you heard, please subscribe and share and leave a review. You can follow us on social media or send us an email at logicofgod at gmail. com