Is God Good?

[00:00:00] Cody: Hi, thank you for tuning in to the Logic of God podcast. I'm Cody.

[00:00:16] Gina: I'm Gina.

[00:00:16] Ben: And I'm Ben. If you're returning, thank you for coming back and if you are a

new guest, welcome.

[00:00:37] Ben: Okay, so yeah, today we're going to be covering assumption number two, which

is the second assumption that we laid out in our first episode. This assumption being that both

God is good and perfect in his goodness. So yeah, last episode we talked about some of the

evidences for God existing. Now we're going to be talking about his character, who he really is.

[00:00:58] Gina: So, in our last episode, we talked a little bit about morality, but I want to unpack

what is good and what is evil a little bit more. So what do you think? What is good and what is

evil?

[00:01:10] Ben: So there are a couple of ways to approach this. One is the easiest way, which is

to just say, whatever God says is good is good, and whatever he says is evil is evil.

[00:01:19] But that's not super satisfying in a philosophical context. That's what I would say. Is

any action that brings about love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

gentleness, and self control, is good? And all actions that lead to unnecessary, long term

suffering, is good? Or, anything that stands in direct opposition to love, joy, peace, patience,

kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self control, is evil.

[00:01:48] So, there is the theory that has been put forward by the author J. R. R. Tolkien, is the

idea that evil cannot create, it can only corrupt what exists. So, when God first made creation, all

of creation was good. And God's character is, as I said, I won't keep repeating it, but love, joy,

peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self control.

[00:02:09] All of those things are a part of God and who He is.

[00:02:12] Gina: Also known as the fruits of the Spirit.

[00:02:13] Ben: Correct. And, Lord willing, we will be covering that in more detail in another

episode. The idea is, is that there are opposites to each of these virtues. So for love, there is

hatred. For joy, there is agony. For peace, there is strife.

[00:02:27] For patience, there is impatience. For all of these things, there is a corrupted variant

of something that is good. So evil in and of itself is not something. It is the absence or the

corruption of a good thing. So we all feel to an extent love or joy or peace, etc. But, there are

things that happen in our lives which we can consider to be bad, and either we can allow those

things to drag us down and cause us to feel despair, or they can lead us not just to have more of

peace or more of love for the people in our lives, but to, to experience a greater understanding

and a greater depth of those virtues.

[00:03:06] A greater degree of love and understanding what it is to love someone. A greater

understanding of peace and more of it in our lives. So, in that sense, a bad thing can be used for

greater good. And so, that does cause some complication for what good and evil are, because if

something bad happens but can be used to increase something else that is good, can you really

say it's evil?

[00:03:29] I would say, yes, it's just being used for something that is ultimately good. That being

said, ultimately, that's how I would describe good and evil. Those sets of virtues that God

describes as, uh, the fruits of his spirit, and then evil is either the inverse of those or actions that

lead to long term meaningless suffering.

[00:03:48] Gina: But Ben, isn't that, like, subjective based on a person's experience and

conviction? Saying eating meat is evil, for example.

[00:04:00] Ben: Well, so there are a lot of things that, you're right, that do come into the

subjective area. There are people who say that, I just won't eat meat because it comes from

animals. There's a lot of that.

[00:04:12] It's built off of a foundation of saying that because an animal is alive and has

emotions, that it has the same value as a human. No, it doesn't. If you believe that God exists

and you believe that God created us with the faculties both of reason and morality which

animals don't have, and we kind of covered that in the last episode, animals don't have a moral

law.

[00:04:35] They don't have things that they know they ought to do and know ought not to do.

Unless they specifically interact with humans, in which case, to a degree, They do. We all, we've

all seen a dog's guilty face. They know when they, they do things

[00:04:46] Gina: they shouldn't do.

[00:04:47] Ben: But in the end, this, uh, this idea that we are exactly the same as all of the

animals is, is kind of silly.

[00:04:54] But I think, Gina, your, your question kind of goes to a broader thing, which is, isn't all

the ideas of good, like, love and joy and peace, these are all things that manifest in a kind of

personal way. Well,

[00:05:05] Gina: there's like homosexual love, you know, there's Somebody deriving joy from

hurting animals. Like, there are so many different examples of those things being used for bad

things or things that God condemns, and yet, we are still being told that they are good.

[00:05:22] Ben: And I think that in those instances, the best way to tell if they are good or evil is

to check adherence to purpose. So, sex is something that is very pleasurable, I think. I think the

jury's not exactly still out on that point. I think we don't have any discussions left on that. I think

we all know. And yes, it is meant to be pleasurable.

[00:05:44] And it's meant to have a number of other functions aside from pleasure. What a lot of

people have done now is removed those extra functions. They've removed the aspect where it is

meant to be a truly intimate act. They've removed the idea that it's supposed to be an act, that's

main purpose is the creation of children.

[00:06:02] They've separated the biological function of sex, as well as the spiritual aspect of sex,

and the role of a man and wife coming together, the two shall become one flesh. All of that has

been cut off, and all that's been left is the pleasure. And that is ultimately a corruption of its

original purpose. So when we look at all of these individual different things, I don't think that it's

wrong for a person to choose not to eat meat.

[00:06:28] Gina: No, I mean, there are Christians who have convictions about swearing or

drinking and, you know, they believe that those behaviors are evil and satanic and a foothold for

the enemy. And I think the reason that I even brought up the fact that good and evil can be

subjective is just because even in the church, we're seeing differences of opinion on what is

good and what is evil and It would be nice to just, I think, lay out a foundation for, you know, as a

human being what the testing portion of good and evil looks like.

[00:07:02] I think you've already laid it out pretty well with the Fruits of the Spirit, but I don't know

if you have any other thoughts.

[00:07:08] Ben: Cody hasn't jumped in for a bit. I'd like to hear what he has to say on this stuff.

[00:07:11] Gina: No,

[00:07:12] Cody: and we could cover. the good and evil topic on its own episode for sure.

Absolutely. We got to differentiate between natural evil and moral evil.

[00:07:23] We'll be covering it, covering more moral evil on the topic of God's character being

good. But with that said, I mean, uh, I think you've explained it exquisitely. Thank you. Wow. Um,

I, I couldn't really add to that at all.

[00:07:43] Gina: So, I think we've established that we're pretty fallible as people, but what does

it mean for God to be perfect in His goodness?

[00:07:52] Ben: In both the Christian and Jewish traditions, it's the idea that God doesn't flip

flop. He doesn't change what He says is good and what He says is evil. He is the same

yesterday, today, and forever. If he says that truth is an important value, he doesn't the next day

say, but I kind of like that, this whole falsehood thing.

[00:08:11] I think I might give this a try. I think it's kind of fun. It's kind of saucy. I'm going to mix

things up. He doesn't do that. Now, there are people who claim that he does because there are

instances in the Bible where he commands, say, you are not allowed to punish a child for his

father's sin. But then he will order that an entire family be killed because of something that one

person in the family did.

[00:08:34] The difference there is that when God is commanding us to do certain things, He's

taking into account that we are finite creatures, that we can't see the greater picture. We can't

see the sins that would have been created by the child if we're the parent. We can't see the

greater impacts of the sins that we've made.

[00:08:50] And we can't see the exact impact of what our decisions are having, and will

eventually have on our current family, or what our punishments will do to society in general. So,

when God says, you can't do that, He is saying this because we don't know what the cause of

our punishments will be. You can't punish a kid for what his father does because you don't know

what that will do.

[00:09:15] All you can say is that you know the father did something wrong, and there are laws

that He has passed down to us that tell you that it's wrong, as well as punishments for how to try

to rectify this imbalance that's been caused. When God looks at something that has been done

wrong, he sees, overall, the great damage that that does, or the insignificant damage that does.

[00:09:35] And that's why there are times, like with Cain, there's the story of Cain and Abel

where Cain commits the first murder against his brother. And ultimately, there's not all that much

that God seems to do about it. In fact, God seems to be very generous towards Cain. Sure, he

kicks him out of his current home, and he sends him off to live in the land of Nod.

[00:09:52] But Cain laments and says, I'm gonna be killed by somebody. And God says, I will

mark you so that you aren't going to be harmed. And he ends up building a city, and he lives the

rest of his life out there. Okay, well, he committed the first murder against his brother who didn't

deserve it. I don't feel like that's a very good punishment.

[00:10:07] But the reality is, when you follow the story, Cain does seem to turn his life around.

Like, he starts a city of his own, he does continue to have a family out there, he does make a

change, and we're not told the exact extent of that change, but God knew what that change

would be.

[00:10:24] Gina: It's an interesting take, because I was just reading this story, and I kind of felt

like it was a worse punishment to make him stay alive than it was to let him get killed.

[00:10:35] Ben: To an extent. I think it does depend on how you view the punishment of life

versus the punishment of death. But when you look at his life, you do see that God doesn't

create a situation where he's going to remain in agony and constantly punished forever. He does

provide an avenue through which he can find some measure of fulfillment, and he does,

because he creates one of the first cities in the land of Nod.

[00:10:55] So, the point is, is that when God dishes out a punishment, whether that punishment

is on one person, or on multiple generations of the same family, Or, God shifts the punishment.

A good example of this is, uh, the punishment that God says he's going to meet out on Ahab.

There's a story in the Bible where, uh, Elisha calls out Ahab because Ahab really wanted one

guy's vineyard and he ended up framing him for a crime and then having the people stone him

at the testimony of two people who were lying.

[00:11:25] And Elisha says that he's going to die in a specific, that Ahab is going to die. Sorry, in

a specific way. And Ahab repents, and God says, through Elisha, that because he repented with

sackcloth and ashes, the punishment he was going to give to Ahab would not come during

Ahab's life, but rather, during the reign of his son.

[00:11:43] That doesn't seem like a very fair thing to do, but, when you see the reign of Ahab's

son, He was even worse than Ahab. God knew that this guy was going to come along after

Ahab. And whether you say it's because of the way Ahab lived his life, or his son's own choices,

or whatever, his son was worse than his father.

[00:12:02] And he deserved the punishment he got. God sees the big picture, we don't, and

that's why he gives us specific rules for punishment of crime that he doesn't always seem to

follow. Because at the heart of it, the point is, is that we don't see, and he does.

[00:12:18] Cody: I think that's good, and I think even today, there's been a lot of study done

where you kind of, Do you see the bigger picture of what certain decisions in, you know, the

hierarchy of family make on the offspring after?

[00:12:35] So, uh, makes logical sense.

[00:12:37] Ben: You're absolutely right. There are a lot of studies that indicate that for fatherless

households, the odds of, of the child brought through a single, a single mother's house. Is much

more likely to have a series of very serious issues. Is much more likely to become a criminal. Is

much more likely to be learning impaired.

[00:12:55] Is much more likely to be sociopathic. There's a long list of things that come from the

result of two people deciding they want to sleep together. But at least, at the very least the father

decides he doesn't want any responsibility after that and leaves. And that does have an impact

on, it doesn't mean that the kid's life is decided by that.

[00:13:13] Cody: No.

[00:13:13] Ben: But there is a pattern we can't really deny here.

[00:13:16] Cody: Oh, and that's where your Sam Harris is, you know, atheist determinist come

out.

[00:13:23] Ben: It's always weird when you have atheists who are also Calvinists.

[00:13:28] Cody: Yeah, there's, I mean, and that's a good way. I love how you put that because

it's a great way of explaining because that's something I struggled with for a while is, you know,

we're told on one hand that the, the, the Sons will not suffer for their father's decisions, but then

you see the story of Noah, you know, Ham makes a bad decision and Canaan is the one who

has to suffer because of it.

[00:13:53] So good explanation. Well, thank you.

[00:13:57] Gina: So, okay, my life verse is actually Philippians 4. 8. I'm going to read it to you

and then I want to pose a question. So finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is

noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything

is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things.

[00:14:20] So, my question is, how do we define all of these good things in God's standards to

understand his character?

[00:14:31] Ben: I see. So how do we look at whatever is pure or noble and

[00:14:35] Gina: How do you know what that is?

[00:14:37] Ben: How do we know? Um, it's, I, I would say it's very similar to what we know is

good. A lot of those things are very similar to just saying, whatever is good in this world, think

about those things.

[00:14:49] And I would say that the, the same things that would be defined as good earlier, love,

joy, peace, patience, those things, the, the actions that you would take that would provide that in

greater abundance and in greater understanding, I would say, is what you should be focused

and thinking on.

[00:15:08] Gina: I'm in agreement.

[00:15:09] I was just wondering if you guys had a different take, especially because it, it is hard

to take captive your mind to focus on such things. And I think there's a reason why God wants

us to focus on those things.

[00:15:24] Ben: Well, I think there's a reason that Paul didn't just say, whatever is good, think

about these things.

[00:15:30] When you think of nobility, when you think of purity, when you think of whatever is

true, These are all different aspects of goodness, generally. It's like, we can say think of colors,

but then there's an individual color. There's red, there's yellow, there's blue, there's green. When

you think about the truth, okay, so there are true things.

[00:15:53] Not every single true thing is going to necessarily bring You joy in the short term, but

if you live your life according to the truth, whatever it happens to be, and you orient yourself

around it, though there may be some short term suffering, long term you will find peace, you will

find joy. And so I think when Paul is using these different words, he's alluding to the different

aspects of God specifically.

[00:16:15] And each of those individual things does require a shift in focus. These things all do

lead into one another in many ways, but the things that God will put us through to really explore

them are often very different, is what I mean.

[00:16:31] Gina: Yeah. What about you?

[00:16:34] Ben: Agreed.

[00:16:34] Gina: Hahaha. Well, then why does it matter if God is good or perfect?

[00:16:40] Ben: Well, there's a verse in Romans, it's Romans chapter 3, verses 5 and 6. And it

talks about, it's a little bit straying from this, but not by much, where Paul is posing a

hypothetical, where someone might say that, you know, God is using bad things. But

[00:16:59] Cody: if our unrighteousness serves to show the righteousness of God, what shall

we say?

[00:17:05] That God is unrighteous to inflict wrath on us? I speak in the human way, by no

means, for then how could God judge the world?

[00:17:15] Ben: So yeah, there's an accusation that God is not being righteous because of his

judgments. And if he was unrighteous, he would have no right to judge the world, which is

essentially what Paul is saying.

[00:17:27] Yeah, it's very important that God be perfect, both perfect and good, because he is

the one who passes judgment. He is the one who judges our actions, who says if they are good

or evil. If he is not consistent in that, if he's not the ultimate arbiter of what is good or evil, if he's

not the ultimate arbiter of what is perfect, he couldn't possibly look at us each individually and

say if we're doing good or evil.

[00:17:53] In fact, good or evil wouldn't even exist at that point.

[00:17:56] Gina: Well, many, many people, and this ties into what we shared in our last episode,

but a lot of people believe that there is no judgment. So if there is no judgment, then you don't

really need a scale of good and evil.

[00:18:07] Ben: Well, the problem with a lot of that is that no matter who you are, you do believe

in judgment.

[00:18:13] Because whenever someone, whenever someone does something, even in the most

tolerant of all Unitarian churches, if you look at When someone has something horrible done to

them, suddenly all of these ideas about good and evil not really existing, about punishment not

really existing, go out the window.

[00:18:31] Gina: Yeah.

[00:18:32] Ben: Ultimately, when you have mass murderers, when you have rapists, when you

have swindlers and liars and sociopaths who are willing to sacrifice other people's lives for their

own gain. Even setting aside the universalist stuff, the average person, if you really ask them

about it, will admit, yeah, absolutely, there are people who exist out there who do bad things.

[00:18:50] In fact, if you ask most people, they say that they don't like most people. How often

have you ever heard, oh yeah, I hate people? People are terrible. People are disgusting. People

are awful. I have a volunteer,

[00:18:58] Gina: she's 17, and she says it all the time. She loves people, but she says she hates

people. Mm

[00:19:02] Ben: hmm. And it's a sentiment that we can all feel, because when we look at the

world around us, we feel like it's constantly falling apart, and that people are constantly ignoring

things that are obvious and true.

[00:19:13] Not us, obviously. I mean, obviously, we're the good people who are not. You know,

with our heads in the sand, ignoring all of the, the real things that are happening. We know

what's going on. We have our heads screwed on right. Obviously, we're the good people. And

that's kind of always the way that it is. It's that the rest of the world has fallen apart.

[00:19:31] We're fine. We're okay. I mean, God would look at us and say, You're, you're okay. I

mean, why wouldn't he? But everyone else kind of sucks. So.

[00:19:41] Cody: Yeah. No, it makes sense.

[00:19:43] Gina: I'm made in the image of God, and He's perfect, therefore I'm perfect.

[00:19:48] Cody: I think, therefore I am.

[00:19:50] Gina: Perfect.

[00:19:51] Cody: For me, this one is a very, um, in depth question, so I'll try to answer it shortly.

[00:19:59] Or

[00:20:00] Ben: longly, it's okay.

[00:20:02] Cody: Why does it matter if God is good? So, why it matters is One, if God is not

good and perfect, then why serve him? But two, if God is not good, then there is no absolute

moral goodness. And that would mean that moral relativity. is true. But when you take moral

relativity to its fullest extent, you wind up with Hitler doing what he did being okay.

[00:20:32] Because, you know, he was doing what was best for him and what benefited him the

most. And when you're living in a reality where that is all that matters, then that's good to that

one person. And that, that can't be true. So, without God being good, there is no absolute

goodness, so I, I think that, that would be how I'd answer it in a short way.

[00:20:58] Yeah, and I think that's a good answer. But, on the opposite side of that, why does

evil exist if God is so good? Well, it kind of goes

[00:21:06] Ben: back to what Tolkien said. Evil itself is not something. It is the corruption of

goodness. Or, if you want, it's the absence of goodness. So, darkness in and of itself, since

there are a lot of parallels between good and evil and light and dark, darkness in and of itself is

not something.

[00:21:24] It is the absence of light. Cold in and of itself is not something, it is the absence of

heat. Evil in and of itself is not something, it is the absence of good. Thus, as a concept, it has to

exist, because good is something, and to remove good from something is to create evil. Now, if

you're going to create something that has free will, something with the capacity to choose, then

by necessity, evil does have to exist as a concept.

[00:21:52] Because if it is able to choose, it has to be able to reject that which exists, that which

is.

[00:21:59] Gina: So, did God create evil?

[00:22:02] Ben: No. He created something with the capacity to choose. Which is a pretty

significant difference.

[00:22:07] Gina: Yeah.

[00:22:07] Ben: It's a bit like saying that when you get a dark room by shutting a door, that the

light made it dark.

[00:22:13] No. You made it dark by shutting the door.

[00:22:17] Cody: I like that analogy.

[00:22:19] Ben: Thank you.

[00:22:20] Cody: So is it possible to be good without God?

[00:22:22] Ben: No. Why? Well, that's a bit like saying is it possible to light up a room without

light?

[00:22:28] Cody: But we're created in his image, don't we have light?

[00:22:32] Ben: So we kind of discussed this in the previous episode.

[00:22:34] What I believe that means is that we have three parts to our being. Which is mind,

body, and will. Those things, as God created them, were good. But all three of those things can

be corrupted to be evil. It's just like the, uh, the creation of Lucifer, Satan, the devil. The name

Lucifer means bringer of light.

[00:22:55] He was not made to be evil. He was not made to be a dark force in the world. He was

made to be good, but he made a choice, because he also, like us, was given free will. And he

made the choice to rebel against God, to turn his back on him, and to try to be his own son, his

own center of the universe, his own light, and to put his desires above the will of God.

[00:23:17] And ultimately, that led to his fall, and that led to him being the Prince of Darkness

that we refer to today. So, no, it isn't possible for us to be good without God, because although

we are made in His image, we are capable of corrupting that image. And once that image is

corrupted, the only person who can save it is God.

[00:23:37] Cody: But what about people who are not Christian, but donate to a good cause, so

to speak, or, you know, go out and serve the community. Is that not good?

[00:23:48] Ben: Well, I've been tackling these questions for a bit. Gina, do you have any

thoughts on this? And actually, Cody, you should probably answer a couple of these yourself to

[00:23:55] Gina: answer your own questions.

[00:23:56] Seriously,

[00:23:57] Ben: be like every good intellectual and answer your own questions. You sure you

already know, you already know the answers.

[00:24:04] Cody: I have the perfect answer to my own question. I hope you do. I bet you do. No,

go for it. What do you think?

[00:24:11] Gina: I'm rereading the question.

[00:24:14] Cody: I don't think that one was on there.

[00:24:16] Gina: Okay.

[00:24:16] Well ask it again.

[00:24:17] Cody: I don't remember what I asked.

[00:24:23] Ben: So the idea that Cody presented was if There is a person who doesn't know

God, but just kind of, you know, gives to charity, does good, would be someone that everyone

around him would say is definitely a good person. Isn't that enough?

[00:24:38] Gina: No.

[00:24:39] Ben: Why?

[00:24:40] Gina: Because if you want to have the relational aspect of salvation, you have to

acknowledge God's goodness and what he did for you through Christ.

[00:24:53] And it's nothing less than that acknowledgement will do. I

[00:24:58] Cody: like it. Yeah.

[00:25:01] Gina: Here's a question, but it kind of jumps ahead so maybe I should say it. Yeah,

[00:25:06] Ben: I think Cody still hasn't answered his own question that he forgot.

[00:25:09] Cody: So, how I'd answer this, can you, can somebody do good without God? Or

rather, can someone be good without God?

[00:25:17] Can someone be good without God? It depends, again, on how you define that and if

you have no absolute answer. Truth, then, you know, you get into the, uh, relativity realm, but

what would be the purpose of somebody doing good without God? It serves no purpose. It

would be in vain. You know, we're but a mist here today, gone tomorrow.

[00:25:42] Like, what purpose would it serve if there's no absolute goodness? If you're not doing

it for the absolute goodness, then you're really not doing anything good at all. You're just doing it

in vain.

[00:25:56] Gina: Calling yourself good doesn't make yourself good, and I know lots of people

who are self proclaimed atheists that say, Well, I'm a good person, and it's pretty messed up that

God doesn't want to take me as I am and save me.

[00:26:08] And they completely miss the point.

[00:26:11] Cody: But with the option of free will, and this is where I kind of probably contradict

myself on the surface of this question, because if there is always the choice to do good or bad,

even absent of God, then yes, you can do good, but it doesn't really serve a purpose.

[00:26:32] Ben: Well, the idea is, can you be made right in God's eyes by doing good separate

from Him?

[00:26:41] That's completely different.

[00:26:42] Gina: Well, we, we know we don't accomplish that because the Bible tells us that we

don't accomplish that through works.

[00:26:49] Cody: We all have blemishes. We can't be made perfect without God in that sense.

Can you still do good things without God, though, is what I was asking. I don't know.

[00:27:00] Maybe it's a weird question.

[00:27:04] Ben: What? Another thing to keep in mind, which is very important, is what was the

first sin? It was a pretty banal thing. It was eating fruit from a tree that we were asked not to.

[00:27:15] Gina: I would argue that it was, I mean, I know that this will be controversial, but I

mean, I think believing that God's a liar would be the sin that preceded eating the fruit.

[00:27:27] Ben: That potentially. It isn't necessarily that they'd have to believe that. They, they

may put, take it into consideration, but not be like, well, I don't know. Not knowing is not

necessarily a sin. But I, I, I, I, I, it's a

[00:27:41] Gina: direct instruction,

[00:27:42] Ben: correct? So the first you, you could say that the first actual action that was

taken, but regardless, it doesn't really change that much.

[00:27:50] The idea is, is that, and you could be right. So let's even go with that, that the first, the

first sin that ultimately led to the cascading Massive sins after the fact. Was them believing God

was a liar. We can go with that. Or you can go with the person being, eating fruit from a tree. No

matter what, the first sin is a pretty banal thing.

[00:28:12] It wasn't a horrendous act of torture. It wasn't a killing. It wasn't something that we

would consider in modern society to be absolutely horrendous. And more importantly, for the

cultures that came before us that weren't as sheltered as we are, that were more regularly

exposed to evil and death and suffering, the idea of believing God to be a liar, Entertaining the

idea, even.

[00:28:36] Or disobeying and eating the fruit. That's not that big of a deal. The point is that sin is

such a horrendously corrupting force. It doesn't matter how little of it you allow into your life. It is

a horrendous, terrifying, corrupting thing. And it took a single act and it transformed an entire

pure and perfect world into a cursed one.

[00:29:01] God cannot allow even a tiny bit of that in heaven. He cannot allow a tiny bit of it in

his presence because it can't be, because darkness can't exist in light. As long as you allow

that, any amount of it, in your life, you will be destroyed in the presence of God. You cannot

stand in the presence of God.

[00:29:23] There are so many stories that come from the Old Testament of people, imperfect

people, Coming into the presence of God and they weep and they fall to their knees and they

tremble because they know that there is a part of them inside of themselves that is not natural

and is still there and is in the presence of something that is true and pure and glorious.

[00:29:42] So when you say that you're mostly good, but you got a couple areas that you need

to work on, but ultimately God should still let you in and you don't have to follow his other rules

because you're mostly good. That is entirely missing the point, which is that a single sin, a banal

sin, led to the world becoming what it is.

[00:30:02] And God is not going to allow that in His presence, because He can't. because you

won't be there if he does.

[00:30:10] Cody: Agreed. So you can't do, and this sounds more like, you know, you can't do

works to get to heaven, but outside of the getting to heaven, do you think that non Christians do

good things? Yeah, absolutely.

[00:30:25] Okay. I know

[00:30:26] Ben: that is, that is kind of a separate question entirely because as listed, what are

good things? Things that bring love, joy, peace, bad things can result. In good things, even

actions that are taken that are objectively bad, like the death of a loved one, that is objectively

bad, can lead to people growing closer together, can lead to loved ones who've never spoken to

one another, or haven't spoken for years, and who have damaged relationships come back

together and repair what has been broken.

[00:30:55] So, yeah, I would say that the same way that bad things can be used for good, that

yeah, anyone can do good things. But like you said, it's pointless. What is it? Yes. It's something

that is being used by God for something, with or without your expressed consent or desire.

[00:31:14] Gina: I think also like, okay, I'm good. Like I'm good, but it's not the same as

sanctification.

[00:31:20] Ben: No.

[00:31:21] Gina: And when you don't have sanctification and refinement in your life, like in good

is good enough, you're never going to become Your potential which like the potential that God

has for you is so much better and more and is Perfected by comparison.

[00:31:39] Cody: Did we answer why would God create things that are capable of evil?

[00:31:44] Ben: I don't think that we specifically indicated that but I we kind of covered it in that

that is a part of free Will but I don't think we actually explained why God would bother making

something that has free will to begin with

[00:31:56] Gina: That's such a hard question.

[00:31:58] Ben: Yeah.

[00:31:58] Gina: Like the question that we've been kind of talking about is like, why do people

want to have children?

[00:32:06] And why did God want to create us? That's, that's a really hard question.

[00:32:11] Ben: Well, and going off of that, you guys have a few kids. If you had the power to

snap your fingers and make it so that they could never disobey you and never disrespect you

and always listen to you. And always love you, no matter what.

[00:32:25] Would you snap your fingers and make that happen?

[00:32:27] Gina: No.

[00:32:27] Cody: No,

[00:32:28] Ben: it'd be pointless.

[00:32:29] Gina: Well, our, our children are very colorful individuals, and that would completely

drain the life, like the color out of the relationships. And part of the fun for me is butting heads

because I learn a lot. Like if, if they were obedient, little, like, I don't know, brainless people, it

wouldn't, there would be no, no back and forth.

[00:32:52] It would, they would have to love me and it wouldn't feel worth it.

[00:32:56] Cody: It wouldn't be love.

[00:32:58] Gina: No,

[00:32:59] Cody: that's, that's not love. That's not relationship. That's not, Anything worth

having, like having a robot, like that's becoming prevalent in our culture right now is, you know,

AI robots is it beneficial for accomplishing stuff?

[00:33:17] Sure, but from a relationship standpoint, it's lifeless.

[00:33:23] Gina: Well, we like Cody and I went through. Um, like a three year season where we

couldn't have Children, like we lost babies, three of them. And then, like, we were diagnosed

infertile and it was not easy. You know, it wasn't possible for me to just be like, okay, I'm I don't

need any more.

[00:33:46] Like there is an overwhelming desire in me, even now having three children to like,

go do it all over again. And I can't explain why other than just knowing what I have and believing

that. In a little, simple, feeble way, like, we're mimicking God's own creation and love for us

through parenting.

[00:34:11] Cody: I would also argue that, you know, if God's law is written on our hearts, that's

one of the first commands in the Bible is to be fruitful and multiply.

[00:34:21] Gina: I believe that. That fruitfulness does not equal having children.

[00:34:27] Cody: No, I think the multiply part would be having

[00:34:29] Gina: people combine the two. And I, I like making that point.

[00:34:32] Cody: I like that.

[00:34:33] Ben: Yes. The end is a very important separator.

[00:34:36] Gina: Yeah.

[00:34:37] Cody: No, I just assume that's how most people took it.

[00:34:39] Ben: Yeah. I'll be honest. That is the way that I took it, but.

[00:34:43] I'm glad that you have a different interpretation there. That does actually make things

very interesting.

[00:34:48] Gina: Fruitfulness does not always equal having children,

[00:34:51] Ben: indeed,

[00:34:52] Gina: especially for people that like where we have a lot of friends that are going

through infertility and don't know when or if they will have children.

[00:34:59] And if being fruitful and multiplying is the same exact thing as having babies, then

they would never be able to fulfill that. And God would not ask people to do things that are not

possible. This is the logic of God.

[00:35:13] Ben: This is the logic of God. Thank you very much for tuning in.

[00:35:17] Gina: So, I'm just going to go for it because we were talking about having children

and there's a lot of, there's a lot of people that I know that ask this question and it just sort of

leads into our last question, which is why would God, why would a good God send people to

hell?

[00:35:35] And we talked a little bit about it in our last episode. About, you know, people who

have never even had the opportunity to know God and, you know, what happens to them. And

so I want to unpack both of these questions because I think God's goodness deserves an

opportunity to speak for the people who never had an opportunity to know Him, like our babies

that passed away.

[00:35:58] Cody: I think if you tackle this topic or this question, you're taking a lot of authority on

yourself or a lot of speculation or both. At the end of the day, I don't think we know how God

judges people, like what his specific requirements for each specific person living completely

different lives is like. Is it going to be, you know, one over all, or is he going to give everybody an

opportunity to hear the gospel?

[00:36:31] You know, an argument can be made, you know, God's not coming back or Jesus is

not coming back until everybody's heard the gospel, but if people have died without hearing the

gospel, is Jesus never coming back? So at some point, somewhere, I think everybody gets the

opportunity. to choose God or reject God, but that is personal speculation.

[00:36:53] I can't really back that up with solid scripture, but why he would send people to hell is

just the, the, the rejection, the, the, the sin causing blemish that Cannot be in his presence So

one of the things we

[00:37:10] Ben: should probably address is what exactly hell is because There are a lot of

people who have this Kind of image in their head of a bunch of guys in red underpants dancing

around with pitchforks and poking people And all kinds of inventive tortures, and they bring up

Dante's Inferno on the different layers of hell.

[00:37:29] There are a few different specific mentions of hell throughout the Bible. Mostly in the

New Testament. There's mentions in Luke, in Revelation, in Matthew. Typically what it is referred

to as a dark, fiery pit, where people are bound and thrown, where there is weeping and

gnashing of teeth, where there is separation from God.

[00:37:49] Whether or not the fiery pit aspect is a kind of colorful description, a way for us to kind

of conjure an idea of dark suffering, or it is literally a dark pit in which our souls are going to be

thrown, is a matter that's up for debate. But ultimately, What it is, regardless of its physical

manifestation or spiritual manifestation, is separation from God.

[00:38:12] Gina: Eternal.

[00:38:13] Ben: Eternal, complete, all encompassing separation from love, joy, peace, patience,

everything that is God's character. If you choose to reject God, all of those good things are

gone.

[00:38:28] Cody: Man, that sounds like hell.

[00:38:30] Ben: I know, right? And so, regardless of how that actually looks, wherever hell is,

that's functionally what it is.

[00:38:38] It's a quarantine zone for all people who have rejected God.

[00:38:42] Gina: Can I ask you a question?

[00:38:43] Ben: Please do.

[00:38:44] Gina: Do you believe that hell goes on forever, or do you believe that hell has an

end?

[00:38:50] Ben: Uh, from everything that we've been told, it seems that hell goes on forever. And

that certainly makes sense to me to an extent.

[00:38:58] I'd be lying if I said that I didn't wonder If there was some way for people to get out, if

there was some way for God to extend his sacrifice to the people who are there now, I don't

know. There's nothing in the Bible that says that it does. And as much as I hope that there, there

is hope. For those people there, I can't find anything in the Bible to support the idea that there is

an escape.

[00:39:22] And that certainly makes sense, because there is, this is a bit off topic, but there is

one unforgivable sin that is mentioned in the Bible. And it's blaspheming the Holy Spirit, or it's

widely assumed that that is what the one unforgivable sin in the Bible is. And it seems strange

that that's the one unforgivable thing, the one thing that God would not forgive you for doing.

[00:39:44] Why that? Well, the idea is, is that God sends His Holy Spirit to the people who call

on Him, who know Him, who truly love Him, and are pursuing Him. When you know God in His

fullness, when you know God as good as any person possibly can, and you truly love Him, that's

the point where you know, and reject, you know exactly what you're rejecting.

[00:40:07] There's no turning back from that. There's no argument to convince you. If you've

lived in God's light, and suddenly you decide it's not good enough for you, you know what you're

rejecting. Most of us have the benefit of a level of ignorance. But at that point, God's revealed

himself to you completely, and you've rejected him.

[00:40:24] Once we're dead, and once we've gone to our final judgment, The like, like Cody

said, there's a lot that we don't know. Mm-Hmm. . And I think we're not told for a very, very good

reason. If we knew that the gospel was gonna be taught to people after they died, why would we

even bother teaching the gospel? We wouldn't.

[00:40:42] There would no be no incentive. And maybe that is what happens, and maybe not, we

don't know. But the point is, is that God is ultimately just. He is the true arbiter of justice, and as

we've discussed, he is complete in his perfection of goodness. If he is truly good and he is truly

just, then no matter what it is he does, we can't look at the decisions and make any reasonable

argument to why he could have done something else.

[00:41:09] So maybe there is no hope for the people in hell, and it seems that that's the case,

because once you're in hell, you have made your decision. You've rejected God, and as a result,

what could you be told to get you out?

[00:41:21] Cody: I like that explanation, because it kind of, a question, not that I've had myself,

but I've heard asked before is, Do the angels have a chance at salvation?

[00:41:33] And, you know, they would have blasphemed the Holy Spirit or God at that point, and

it's unforgivable. Like, they, they were in the presence of God. They're in a completely different

position than we are, and they rejected that. So, I like that.

[00:41:50] Gina: It's so interesting that the angels have been in the presence of God and in his

counsel and still struggle with his sovereignty.

[00:41:59] Mm hmm. Like, we have a, a lot to take on in becoming a Christian because there are

a lot of questions that there are no good answers for, and that's where faith is required. And I

know that's a cookie cutter response that Cody hates, because people will be like, you just gotta

believe. And that's not a fair answer either, but.

[00:42:22] You know, faith is really important in believing in God's goodness, outside of all of the

evidence that exists.

[00:42:30] Ben: Yeah, I agree. One of the most interesting books in the Bible, one of my most

favorite, is the book of Job. And the reason is because not only is it a story about a guy, Who

has an absolutely horrible time.

[00:42:44] The worst suffering that any person could possibly have. Where all of his family

except his wife is wiped out. And all of his property is completely destroyed. And all of his

livestock is taken away. And his health is taken away from him. And his friends turn on him. And

his wife turns on him. And he's sitting alone, a miserable mess.

[00:43:01] Scraping at boils with pieces of broken pottery. And his friends come up to him and

tell him that he obviously deserved it. And he tells them that he didn't deserve it. And he keeps

trying to find a way to reconcile God's goodness, his justice, his perfection with his current

situation, and he can't. And he says, I would argue my case before God, even though I know it's

pointless, because I know I don't deserve it.

[00:43:26] And every single friend attacks him in a different way, saying, clearly you deserved it

because you're here. And God finally shows up, and what does God say? It's not about

deserving. I am God. And that's it. He restores Job's fortunes. He gives him back everything that

he had. He rebukes the friends that were around him telling him that he deserved it.

[00:43:47] Because he clearly didn't. And he tells Job to pray for his friends. But it's like, in every

other story, you would have God come forward and say, This is why I did it. This is the reason

for it. Or he would say, Job, you clearly did deserve it. And there are a lot of people who teach

that Job somehow deserved it.

[00:44:06] Completely missing the end of the story. The point is, you aren't owed an explanation

for every single thing that happens to you. And sooner or later, you're gonna come to a point

where there's a question that you have that you won't get an answer to. Or something will

happen in your life that is absolutely horrible, and you'll be suffering and not knowing why.

[00:44:27] You're not owed an explanation. At that point, you have to understand God is God,

and he has his reasons for what he's doing, and whether he explains himself or not, that will

always be the truth. And you can have the faith to accept it, or you can reject it.

[00:44:42] Gina: But the special thing about those situations is where you choose to use it as

your testimony and help other people going through the same exact thing who have even less

answers than you.

[00:44:54] Ben: Absolutely.

[00:44:56] Gina: That's how you glorify God. That's how you prove his goodness in those bad

times without an explanation.

[00:45:02] Ben: Personally, I find a lot of those testimonies to be some of the most powerful.

And I think we all have an immense amount of respect for the people we see around us who

suffer, but still choose to love and who choose to put the needs of other people before them.

[00:45:15] Gina: The enemy wants you to shut up and sit down and pretend like everything's

fine, but you're allowed to talk about it, especially with people who need you.

[00:45:23] Ben: Absolutely.

[00:45:24] Gina: Awesome.

[00:45:26] Ben: What do you think, Cody? No, I agree.

[00:45:31] Cody: I like it.

[00:45:40] Gina: Thanks for listening to Logic of God podcast. If you liked what you heard,

please subscribe and share and leave a review. If you'd like to follow us on social media, you

can find us at the logic of God, and you can also send us an email at the logic of God at gmail.

com. Thanks and have a great day.