Does God Love Us? Part 1

[00:00:00] Cody: Hi, thank you for tuning in to the Logic of God podcast. I'm Cody. 


[00:00:08] Gina: I'm Gina. 


[00:00:09] Ben: And I'm Ben. If you're returning, thank you for coming back and if you are a new guest, welcome. 


[00:00:20] Gina: Today we're going to be discussing the subject based on our core assumption of God loves us. And that assumption delves into What it looks like to be loved by God, how God could possibly love us, why he would love us, and how to access that love through a relationship with him. So we hope that you enjoyed today's episode and we hope you have a great day. 


[00:00:48] Ben: Why would God love us to begin with? Because even according to the Bible, humanity is pretty twisted and evil. So why would he love us? And a couple of verses that we could pull from there would be Genesis 6 5 and Psalm 8 4. For Genesis 6 5, 


[00:01:07] Gina: Do you want me to read it? 


[00:01:08] Ben: Yes, please. 


[00:01:09] Gina: When the Lord saw that human wickedness was widespread on the earth, and that every inclination of the human mind was nothing but evil all the time, the Lord regretted that He had made man on the earth, and He was deeply grieved. 


[00:01:25] Shall I continue? 


[00:01:27] Ben: No, I think that's enough. Okay. I think the whole, every inclination of the heart and the mind all the time, 24 hours a day being evil, I think that covers it. Yeah. And then for Psalm 8, 4, 


[00:01:39] Gina: What is a human being that you remember him a son of man that you look after him I feel like I'm in the wrong version. 


[00:01:46] Ben: No, that's fine. 


[00:01:47] Gina: Okay. 


[00:01:48] Ben: I mean, I do think we'll probably have some Listeners who were sicklers about the version. Yeah, 


[00:01:52] Gina: that was the CSB. 


[00:01:54] Ben: Well, okay carry on 


[00:01:56] Cody: KJB 


[00:01:57] Ben: only But that's a subject matter for a future episode 


[00:02:03] Gina: Okay. So what about these verses leads you to Believe that God could possibly love us. 


[00:02:10] Ben: Well, those verses are more just a reinforcement of the idea that the Bible does point out the fact that the human heart is inclined towards evil. 


[00:02:20] And it's not just these verses, there are others as well, but this is more just a couple of quick points to point out. So that does ultimately lead to the question why does he love us? And there are a few answers. Uh, but first I'd kinda like to pick your guys' brains about that. Cody, you, what do you think? 


[00:02:38] Cody: Why does God love us? Because he created us. We're in his image. 


[00:02:44] Ben: I mean, that kind of brushes on the idea of why. I mean, we, you guys are both parents, you love your children. And, I mean, sure, I'm sure you guys love other people's kids, but your kids specifically are yours, and you made them. And I'm sure that you love them much more than you love other people's kids. 


[00:03:02] Because they're yours, 


[00:03:04] Gina: right? 


[00:03:06] Ben: That's also an assumption. We'll call that assumption number five. I assume you guys love your own children more than you love other people's children. 


[00:03:13] Cody: Oh, yes. 


[00:03:14] Gina: Yeah, don't mess with my kids. 


[00:03:16] Ben: Absolutely. 


[00:03:18] Gina: For me, when Cody and I are having conversations about growing our family, sometimes the topic comes up of like, like, why do we want to have children so bad? 


[00:03:31] I don't know. In comparison to why did God want to make us? And the only explanation that I can come up with is just that he wanted us and he chose us and he loves us and I can't explain what about me he would love because when I consider my character and my past and what the Bible says about me like we're not it. 


[00:03:54] Really logically that lovable but he loves us. Anyway, 


[00:03:59] Ben: yeah So I would say a big part of it is that part of God's nature is love Addressed in one of the other episodes. What is goodness? Anything that leaves to love joy peace patience kindness goodness, which I recognize is redundant goodness kindness faithfulness gentleness and self control All of those are gifts of the Spirit. 


[00:04:19] I probably should have clarified in that episode, so I'm sorry about that for those of you who don't know the scriptures super well. But according to the Bible, according to the Apostle Paul, the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self control. 


[00:04:34] Against such things there is no law. And so, these are all the fruits of the Holy Spirit, and that is an aspect of who God is. So, if one of His fruits is love, you would expect Him to love, and what would He love? Well, He loves the things that He's made. He loves Himself. He loves the Son, He loves the Spirit, and He loves the Father, because those are all a part of Him. 


[00:04:57] But also he loves his creation and in part that is because that is who he is now We'll go into some of the the harder parts of that in a bit, but for now Love being a part of his character is something that's stated. And So yes, we do have inclinations to evil. We do have inclinations to reject God and to push him away But it is still a part of who he is You That he loves us because that is a central aspect of his unchangeable unshakable nature. 


[00:05:33] It doesn't matter what we do, his love will always be a part of who he is and thus he will constantly express it. 


[00:05:40] Cody: Does he express that in the same way that we do though? 


[00:05:43] Ben: Yeah, that's a good question. 


[00:05:46] Cody: Because in certain aspects, love in the full spectrum of Earthly, humanistic love brings all kinds of emotions. 


[00:05:57] Anger, joy, jealousy, selfishness. Like it brings a full spectrum of emotions. Does God get those from loving us as well? 


[00:06:09] Ben: I wish I could remember the verse, specifically. I do remember. Is it Mark? It's, I believe it's James 4, 5. That God jealously longs for the spirit he has caused to dwell within us. 


[00:06:20] Gina: James 4, 5. 


[00:06:22] Or do you think scripture says without reason that he jealously longs for the spirit he has caused to dwell in us? 


[00:06:29] Ben: I do think that his love, rather, our love is shadow of what God's love is. It is a lesser form because we're made in his image. But because we're made in his image, we're capable of the same feelings and emotions that God is. 


[00:06:47] They're just not quite the same. They're a shadow or a copy, as C. S. Lewis would say. 


[00:06:52] Gina: I wouldn't even argue that they're, like, human emotion is It's heavily unstable compared to God. 


[00:06:58] Ben: I'd say that's probably a good characterization. 


[00:07:01] Cody: And even in that James scripture, does, like, when we have jealousy, is it the same as God's jealousy for not worshiping other gods before him? 


[00:07:13] Ben: No, I would say that it's very different. I know when a lot of people see the word jealousy, they think, oh, okay, so God's sinning there. Well, no, because when humans are jealous of something, Like, let's say that I look out the window here, and I see a really nice truck sitting in that driveway, and I think, well, you know what, that truck's not mine. 


[00:07:30] I wish that truck was mine. You know what, you guys have a very nice truck, and I, dang it, I just, I don't own it. I wish I did though. When God looks at his creation, that's all his. He's allowed us to reject him. He's given us the ability to choose whether or not to follow him and to accept his love. And so when we choose not to, he does long jealously for the things that we shift our attention to. 


[00:07:58] Our love and our affections and our wants and desires. But that's because he has the right to it. And so, when we take that away, He allows us to do it. But in the end, it doesn't change the fact that it's His by right because He made us. So yeah, His jealousy is different because He does own everything. 


[00:08:17] It's all His. 


[00:08:19] Cody: I do like that, because we are His, He did create us, but also, in this topic of love, does God love us? And jealousy that He has, Is he knows what's best for us in that love and us not reciprocating that to him. He knows that's not what's best for us. So he gets jealous of that and there, there is negative consequences for not following through with that reciprocated love back to him. 


[00:08:49] And I think that's where a lot of his jealousy comes from. is stemmed from is actually still in the root of love, not necessarily just the fact that he created us so he deserves that love, yes, but also because he knows what's best for us and he does love us. So that's where that's coming from. 


[00:09:07] Gina: But I want to even take a step back because I don't think humankind's definition of love is even related to what God's love looks like. 


[00:09:19] I think we can sometimes attack the word love from a perspective of romance and like worldview love, which has more to do with love between two people than love between people and God. I don't think that we can really form, like, a healthy understanding of love without first knowing what that, like, definition of God's love is, and you would have to basically train yourself out of believing that what you see in a Hallmark movie is true love. 


[00:09:54] Ben: Yeah, thankfully, we are actually told what God's definition of love is. Do you have that verse up? There is actually a verse, I can't remember exactly where it is, but if you've been to a wedding, you've probably heard this before. Yet love is patient, love is kind, it does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud, it is not self seeking, it keeps no record of the wrongs. 


[00:10:14] Gina: It's 1 Corinthians 13. 


[00:10:16] Ben: All right, would you mind bringing that up? 


[00:10:18] Gina: Sure. 


[00:10:19] Ben: Because I don't, I can't do it all by rote. I've been to enough weddings in my family that I've heard enough times that I know the gist. 


[00:10:27] Gina: Love is patient. Love is kind. It does not envy. It does not boast. It is not proud. It does not dishonor others. 


[00:10:35] It is not self seeking. It is not easily angered. And it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil, but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, and always perseveres. Love never fails. 


[00:10:50] Cody: That's awesome. I love that definition of love, but like, I also think the culture that we live in today, and just the American culture we live in, and the English that we have fails us because there is not multiple definitions of love in our vocabulary. 


[00:11:10] Love is the same love that you use to say, I love my wife or I love my kids or I love this piece of cheese. It's all the same, but if you look at other languages, they have different descriptive ways to say love of, you hear the agape love in the Greek. We don't have that in. Our English language that I'm aware of. 


[00:11:33] Gina: But that's why we play the game that we play with our children. We're not allowed to say we love something. That's not something. Would you die for it? Yeah. 


[00:11:43] Ben: Yeah, so Cody, you bring up a very good point and bringing up the words like agape and eros. So the Greeks actually did have a number of different words and those words are used in the Bible, not interchangeably, they are used with purpose. 


[00:11:56] So there's agape or agape, there's phileia or phileo or eros. And I think those are the three main ones. There's Agape, Fileo, Eros. And C. S. Lewis actually did a number of different college lectures on this back in the day and they were recorded. And I'd highly recommend anyone go and look those up because they are very good. 


[00:12:19] It's kind of weird hearing C. S. Lewis. In an actual lecture, he talks very sophisticated and dro kind of English, but agape, , . See, he brings, he brings up a lot of very good points, distinguishing the different kinds of love. And it is true that in English we just kind of have love, just that one word, which is unfortunate. 


[00:12:48] I'm not sure why it is that we have the one word, whereas our root language has the different ones. But, yes, I, there is kind of a through line though with all of the loves. And it is that at the foundation of each love, there is a desire to see the best in the person that you're looking at. Whether that's man's love for God, or man's love for his brother, or man's love for Oh, Storge! 


[00:13:15] That was the fourth one. Sorry, I just broke the flow completely. There were four. But yeah, the through line is your family, your close family, your friends, God, or the person you love. You're always seeking the best for that person. And what Paul put down is that through, that through line. Through all of the loves, that's what you should see. 


[00:13:36] But more than any is that love that God has for us and that we should have for God. 


[00:13:41] Cody: Yeah, and where I was going with that is, like, you have all these different definitions in these other languages, but God's definition is so much greater than what we can express or even put on paper with any descriptive factor. 


[00:13:58] Gina: Well, it's like a marriage. You sign up for a marriage through a covenant and it's for better or for worse. We had this conversation with our daughter earlier today. It's like if your marriage goes bad and her example was, well, what if your significant other like hits you or is an alcoholic? It's like you don't just give up and throw it away. 


[00:14:19] And our definition of love is so twisted that we don't even really understand the value of the covenant or of for better for worse. And God actually does. God is unconditionally going to love us no matter what we do. But We have to have the repentance factor. We have to have the faithfulness factor and the acceptance of Jesus Christ. 


[00:14:44] And if we don't have those things, then we're excluding ourselves from that love. But that love is perfect. And it's so perfect that it's like not even really understandable to us. 


[00:14:54] Cody: So when we're not perfect though, does God feel the same emotions that we do when somebody is unfaithful to us? And like a good scriptural reference to this, or idea from scripture is like this, Book of Hosea, and how Israel is related to this prostitute. 


[00:15:19] So, does God feel the same emotions? And what does that look like in relation to how we experience love with our significant others or friends who might backstab us or are unfaithful to us, and then we, on the other hand, also do that to God? What is his emotional reaction to that? 


[00:15:39] Ben: If the Bible is any indication, some pretty visceral and hard emotions when it comes to betrayal. 


[00:15:47] And it's not because he doesn't see it coming, he obviously does. But the reality is that he is so many different things to us. Not only is he just, he's our ultimate father, our heavenly father. He's our creator. And he's the creator of everything around us. He's the one who allows us to feel the good feelings that we feel. 


[00:16:07] He's the one who enables us to have the free will that we have to reject him in the first place. He's the one who continuously forgives us for all of the negative things that we do. He is ultimately the judge and the jury when it comes to our judgment. And he's the one who has the absolute standard for the good and the evil. 


[00:16:26] He understands better than anyone what it is. I like that. And so, when we decide we're going to take ourselves from him, and by all rights, he has the right to us, we are performing the ultimate betrayal. And the more you know about what you're doing, the more it hurts. And I would say that the times where God shows the most visceral reactions are when people know better. 


[00:16:57] than to do what they do. When God punishes Israel, oftentimes it's in the wake of Him doing something incredible. A point where everyone has viewed his power and his love and his grace and his ability to bring them up out of impossible odds. One of the best examples is the worshipping of the golden calf when Moses goes up the mountain. 


[00:17:19] He has just brought them out of Israel. He's bringing them through the desert. He's providing for every need they possibly could have. They know he is real. They know he's there. They know that he is willing to help them through everything. And he's bringing them to a land that he promised them generations ago and is finally here. 


[00:17:36] Fulfilling in their lifetime something they knew was going to happen, that they had prophecies for. And what do they do? Because Moses has gone a little too long, they decide to make some golden calves to worship. Now, we all laugh at that, and we all say, that's just the dumbest thing ever. And to be fair, it is. 


[00:17:58] We all do that to an extent in our own lives. I think that oftentimes we'll go from a period where we're very close to God and we can feel his presence. We can practically hear his voice in our heart, in our head. We know what he wants us to do and we'll even see miracles in our own lives often. And then we go from that high to, okay, I can't hear you. 


[00:18:22] I can't feel you. I don't have direction. And you just came from a point where God proved himself to you. And now, through this period of your life, for whatever reason he's distant, and maybe he's asking you to wait, maybe he's trying to teach you something, maybe you have put an obstacle between yourself and him that's enabled you to block him out, and you don't realize it. 


[00:18:47] But so often, our first reaction, even after God has proved himself to us, is, well you clearly don't love me. The fool says in his heart there is no God. So often we attribute that to atheism. That's not actually what the verse is about. When we sin, we are essentially convincing ourselves in that moment God doesn't exist. 


[00:19:10] Because if he was standing behind us watching us, just like if our boss was standing behind us at work, we wouldn't cheat on time or we wouldn't cheat on assignments. If we truly believe God is there, we would understand and we would behave. We would seek him out. We would do what's right. In those moments, we reject them completely. 


[00:19:30] And it's the same thing that the Israelites did. Sorry, that is a bit of a tangent, but 


[00:19:35] Cody: no, I like that. And I think it's relevant to the discussion we're talking about why or how God could love us, but also What makes us forget so easily, we read this and you brought it up to the Israelites that you read it and you think they're dumb because they go through all of these miraculous events and you put yourself there and it's like, Oh, I would never do that if God was parting the waters or making, what is it rain from heaven and like all of these different things that happened to them. 


[00:20:10] But then we take what has happened in our own lives and so easily forget it as well and we're in the same boat Why do we? Forget so easily 


[00:20:22] Gina: because we're waiting and we don't like waiting and there's a verse for that second Peter 3, 9, The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. 


[00:20:35] Instead, he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. That's my verse for that, because we have to wait, and we have to exist in a world that is completely imperfect. The reward for that waiting is heaven, but we have to be patient. And if we get distracted and we make a golden calf and replace God and reject him, then we're defying his desire to have unity with everybody that he's ever created. 


[00:21:06] Ben: And we've been given every tool to be patient. We've been given the knowledge of who God is. We've been given For many of us, and I'm guilty of making my own golden calves in a sense as well, we've all been shown in one way or another His goodness, His grace, His love. And even if you've never felt that personally, and I do pray that every single person listening to this has or will, you have been given the ultimate gift in that Christ Himself, God incarnate, came and took your burden. 


[00:21:39] Your sin and your punishment and he took that on himself If you know that and you truly believe that when you go through a hard time For whatever reason God has for putting you through it suddenly the fact that it's tough and the fact that it hurts Causes us to doubt and we've been given every single tool to say no, it's okay There is a reason and there was actually I'll A little bit before this podcast, we were discussing Job, and Job is one of those interesting stories where Job is given every single reason to doubt God, and he's given No justification at the end of the story for why God does what he does. 


[00:22:19] And in any other culture, in any other situation, you would expect the story to end where God comes out and reveals exactly why everything happened to Job. And it would explain like, look, this is, your children sinned against me, that's why I took them from you. And you did X, Y, and Z, and that's why I allowed all these horrible things to happen to you. 


[00:22:37] Or this is what will happen to you in the future as a result of what, but God doesn't do that. Instead, God comes forward and says, It's not about what you think you deserve. I am God and I know what I'm doing. And you don't. And that is a very hard pill to swallow. It's the hardest pill. Because we do feel like we're owed an explanation. 


[00:23:01] Because why, why do these bad things happen to us? In the end, God does have a purpose for that. And you can either accept that, and accept that good will come from it because He is good and He loves you, Or you can doubt that and that will slowly lead you to despair. 


[00:23:19] Cody: Yeah. And we, a lot of people get caught up on that concept of job that you're describing and like the only thing I can tell people is just we have such a small linear view of what is going on. 


[00:23:34] We have no idea really. What is going on behind the scenes? And I wish I could remember the topic or where it was at, but Jordan Peterson basically went on this huge tangent of even in his profession and field of study, you don't instantly see the negative effects. But if you take one negative action and trace it over a long period of time, you'll end up seeing what negative response that action caused, no matter what it is. 


[00:24:07] If it goes against God's purpose, It's going to be, have a negative impact on your life in one way or another. 


[00:24:16] Gina: I just, I don't know. I really liked what Ben shared about how you use those trials for us, Cody and I going through multiple miscarriages. Like I made the decision. When it started happening that I was going to be mad at God and that didn't do me any good and it threw us into marital problems and depression and problems with our living children and Family problems just everywhere we went there were problems And it was really because of the decision that I had made without consulting Kody or God or anybody That I was just going to be mad at God and accuse him of causing it it and allowing it. 


[00:25:00] And that was so wrong. And after it's been five years now, we have finally gotten to a point where we can use it for God and for his glory and for people who are going through something similar. And I think the lie from Satan is that nobody could understand what you're going through. Cause it feels too big and too bad and too hard. 


[00:25:21] And it's just such a lie. So I just, if you're listening and you're mad at God right now, I want to encourage you to stop and consider how you could use what's going on for God's glory, because you're going to find that you're less lonely than you've ever been by using your trial for God's glory than if you use your trial just to be mad at God. 


[00:25:43] Cody: 100 percent agree with that. Like, and end the moment. It sucks. After the fact, it still sucks. But being able to see the bigger picture after coming out of it, we weren't perfect going through it. But, you know, thankfully, we got to a point where God was able to reveal to us the purpose that we went through those trials. 


[00:26:06] And not that you should be happy that you're going through that, but it can be used for good. And 


[00:26:13] Gina: He received us. And I think it's just because we made the decision to use those things that we struggled with. to serve him instead of to hate him. 


[00:26:39] Ben: Well, I think we also, first, thanks a lot, you guys, for sharing that because that is a very intimate thing. 


[00:26:45] And it's, I imagine that was a very hard time in your lives. I think we tend to get a picture when we're going through these things that God is sitting there aloof and rolling his eyes as we're questioning him. And as we're going through those very hard times. There's a story that C. S. Lewis son, Douglas Gresham, tells about his own walk with God and his own journey to Christianity. 


[00:27:10] There was a point where C. S. Lewis wife, Joy Gresham, She had cancer. It was the first of, I think, two times where she had it. And she was dying, and she was in a very bad state, and Douglas had been informed of the fact that she was not doing well, and he was walking, I believe, home at the time. And he was walking by a church, and he felt compelled to go in, and he said that he opened up the gate, and it felt as if he was passing from the Shadowlands into the real world. 


[00:27:40] That everything felt true and vibrant and real and full of life. And he sat down in the church and he felt the presence of God there with him. And the thing that struck him was that the presence that he felt there felt anguish. It was sad. It was more sorry about what was going on than he felt. There was more grief than the grief he felt. 


[00:28:10] And there's more to Douglas story, but the point of bringing that up is that God doesn't do this because he's enjoying it. He actually feels worse about the pain that these situations inflict than we feel about the situation. He knows that you're hurting, and he isn't happy about it. And the only reason he's doing it is because it's necessary. 


[00:28:38] Gina: Well, and I would even clarify, like, God doesn't kill, God doesn't steal, God doesn't destroy. So if those things are happening in your life, those are not coming from God. 


[00:28:49] Ben: He can certainly allow those things to happen. And he can stop them if he wants to. So ultimately, if he is not stopping them, He has a reason for doing it. 


[00:29:01] And it kills him inside. It brings him an enormous amount of pain and anguish to allow these things to happen. He can feel sorrow. He can feel grief. He can feel pain, just like we do. And it's, again, just like with the positives, to a much greater degree than we do. But, just because he feels those things, that he empathizes with your position, it doesn't mean that he's going to stop it, just because you feel pain. 


[00:29:29] Because he can see the ultimate fruits of what's going on. 


[00:29:33] Gina: And there's scripture for that, James 1, 2 through 4. 


[00:29:38] Ben: Go for it. 


[00:29:38] Gina: Consider it all joy, my brothers and sisters, when you encounter various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing. 


[00:29:53] There's so many more. 


[00:29:54] Ben: Oh yeah. I'm pretty sure that there is an actual verse that says, and we do have a God who empathizes with our struggles because he became human like we are, but that is a subject for another episode. 


[00:30:09] Cody: Yeah. 


[00:30:10] Gina: Well, even with our, yeah, even with our struggles, once I softened and talked to God about it, I mean, he spoke to me and he said, Gina, do you think I don't understand what it's like to lose a child? 


[00:30:26] And Jesus died in ways that were much more devastating than an embryo. So, we have to take into consideration the fact that God has way more experience than we do. 


[00:30:40] Ben: Yes, that's 


[00:30:41] Cody: very true. More experience and, like, that was devastating because the weight of the world was on his shoulders. I can't say that all babies go to heaven, I don't know. 


[00:30:50] What happens there, but my personal belief is yes, they do. I'm with you on that. I agree like Maybe not all babies go to heaven was the wrong words, but the age of what do they call it the age 


[00:31:04] Ben: of accountability? 


[00:31:04] Cody: Yes, so I can't say that's a whole other And I 


[00:31:09] Ben: do think that we could probably do an entire episode just on the age of accountability But yes, I do agree that I think Generally, it's accepted that babies are innocent. 


[00:31:19] They're brought into this world 100 percent pure and they haven't done anything wrong. And they die and they more than likely go to heaven, but we don't know that for sure. We aren't told. So I wouldn't recommend anyone build an entire doctrine around that idea. But for me, I don't see anything wrong with saying that babies go to heaven. 


[00:31:41] Gina: Well, I've had visions and encounters with the Lord that tells me what I believe. Well, 


[00:31:46] Ben: my family has too, but it's tough to, like I said, it's back it 


[00:31:49] Gina: up with doctrine. 


[00:31:51] Ben: It's usually best to back these things up with biblical things. And there isn't much in the Bible specifically about that. So except for one thing from David, but that was with a baby that had been born where it said, I will go to him, but he will not come to me. 


[00:32:08] And he could just be referring about death there, but I don't think so. 


[00:32:12] Gina: Does God have favorites, Ben? 


[00:32:15] Ben: Yeah, I wouldn't say that he has favorites exactly. What I would say is that there are definitely people that he is closer to. Kind of like how there are kids who are closer to their parents and parents who are closer to specific kids. 


[00:32:28] And a good example of this would actually be David. He's a man who is labeled a man after God's own heart. And this isn't a label that's typically given. In fact, I think he's the only person who's been labeled that. Yeah. In the entirety of the Old Testament, and it's kind of weird because when you look at David, you think, okay, so he's a man who committed adultery and murder. 


[00:32:50] He kind of let some things slide 


[00:32:52] Gina: and he like wallowed in self pity quite often. Yes, 


[00:32:55] Ben: he did. He kind of let Israel be taken over by Absalom for a period of time. He shirked his duties a little bit there, not to mention his fatherly duties with one of his daughters, but that's a PG 13 rated R story at best, so I won't go too deep into that, but when you look at David's motivations, when you look at The times in his life where his back was up against the wall and he had every right to take things into his own hands. 


[00:33:24] When Saul was, King Saul was chasing after him just because he was jealous of David's fame and when he had every right to take Saul's life because Saul had attempted to kill him so many times. He had two different times, two different points where he had Saul in his sights and he could have very easily killed him and he chose not to. 


[00:33:47] The reason he gave was because God anointed this man to be king. And he wouldn't lay a hand on God's anointed. David's pursuit was God. He loved God. He spent hours and hours writing psalms about God. All this man could think about, all this man could talk about was God. Pretty much every time you ever see him talk is, it is in some way related to God. 


[00:34:14] Or about tying someone to God. Or about the actions that someone takes that glorifies God. He talks about Goliath being the man who defies the armies of the living God. He talks about Saul being God's anointed. He talks about the Philistines being uncircumcised. And that being a negative against them, because that is a commandment from God. 


[00:34:37] Everything that David was oriented toward God. Now that doesn't mean that he always succeeded, because he didn't. He failed miserably. And I honestly, if I'm being 100 percent honest, that is very comforting to me. Because the man that God says is after his own heart was a flawed person, who failed. And if someone like David could fail as miserably as he did and still be loved by God, that means that we all probably got a little bit of forgiveness there for some of the worst things that we do. 


[00:35:10] A chance to be loved by God as well. But all that is to say that, yeah, there are individuals in the Bible like David, Who are selected for whatever reason typically it's because of their love for God and their motivation But we don't always know that Enoch. He's a guy who didn't die. We don't really know why he didn't die He just didn't die and Elijah He didn't do nearly as much as Elisha did but he was taken up in heaven by chariots of fire Why that was why he was allowed to bypass death. 


[00:35:39] We don't know Maybe he's one of the two witnesses that comes at the end, but that's a story for another time You People have theories about these things, but there's just the truth that God treats certain people a little bit differently. And frequently that is due to either their obedience or their heart. 


[00:35:57] So it's not so much that God has put someone in his sight arbitrarily and said, you know what, this person, I'm going to like them. This person is now favored by God almighty. And now he's going to be amazing. It's more that God knows the heart of a person and chooses them based on that. 


[00:36:16] Cody: And even talking about David, the story how David was selected over his brothers, it was a heart thing. 


[00:36:24] Rather than an appearance or birthright or whatever, it was God saw the heart of David and that's why he picked David. 


[00:36:32] Ben: And the curious thing about David and Saul's story is that Saul was chosen seemingly because of his appearance. He was a full head taller than everyone else in his village. He was strong. 


[00:36:45] He was good looking. He was capable. He was a fierce warrior. But in the end, he was not a good choice. And when you read the story of Saul, when Israel comes to Samuel, who was the last judge of Israel and a prophet, and they ask him to give them a king. Samuel goes to God and he's like, these people want a king. 


[00:37:09] I don't understand, is this okay? And God says, look, it's not a good thing. Explain to them that everything is going to be taken from them. That their lives aren't going to be theirs, but it's going to belong to the king. That the king is going to take the best of everything that you have. But recognize that they are going to choose a king over me. 


[00:37:29] In the end, they are choosing to reject me. It's not simply that they're choosing a king. And so God gave them the king they were looking for. The first king of Israel was what Israel wanted, and it was not a good choice. And the second king of Israel was the king that God chose for himself. 


[00:37:46] Gina: Well, we researched all of the kings of Israel at one point, and there were very few that actually finished well or even did well at all. 


[00:37:56] So Yeah. The construct that they came up with kind of let the rest of the world down. 


[00:38:04] Ben: There were literally only three kings in Israel that actually ruled all of Israel, which is kind of weird when you think about it. All because Israel decided they wanted a king. If they had never chosen a king, if they had never come to Samuel and instead had allowed God and the judges that he chose to continue to rule them. 


[00:38:26] They still would have gone through cycles like they had been where they would fall into sin and their enemies would surround them and then they would cry out to God for help and then God would help them. That system still would have existed, but the second they decide they want a king, a lineage, a bloodline that's going to rule them, that's what causes the fall of Israel and their separation. 


[00:38:52] Within. A couple generations. Sorry, little bit of a tangent. It doesn't have a whole lot to do with God loving us. It's just something I thought was weird. 


[00:39:01] Gina: No, I think the Israelites are kind of the, the perfect example of God's love and just comparison to where we are now, because we don't even have the benefit of seeing all of those miracles and having the same access that the Israelites had to God's presence. 


[00:39:21] Yet. Like we're just as forgetful and ignorant of God's love. 


[00:39:34] You look like you don't agree. 


[00:39:36] Cody: It depends on how you define the presence. I mean, the Israelites had the smoke and fire and the Ark of the Covenant and the mercy seat and all that, but that was done away with and the Holy Spirit came after that. So 


[00:39:58] Gina: The Holy Spirit is a whole lot harder to encounter than something that you don't have to invite in. 


[00:40:05] Cody: Yeah. It's a topic I've been interested in researching but haven't so much as did the Israelites have access to the Holy Spirit like we do now? Or did when Jesus died and he promised the Helper would come, was that the only time that the Helper was there? 


[00:40:26] Ben: Well, I would argue there was not as ready and access to the Holy Spirit. 


[00:40:32] And the prophets do indicate that there was a reason for that, that there was going to be a time that would come in the future where the law would be written on our hearts. And then, of course, there's also what you just mentioned, where Jesus said, I have to leave, but I will send a helper. A helper is coming. 


[00:40:47] And the helper was the Holy Spirit that came down in tongues of fire. And there was a massive outbreaking of all kinds of spiritual gifts that you didn't see In the Old Testament where you did see individual prophets, but there were, they were exceptions rather than the rule, whereas suddenly the Spirit was accessible to anybody. 


[00:41:06] But there are a number of points where you see the Spirit of God coming on someone. There's the prophets obviously, but then there are also people like Samson. Samson's probably one of the more famous examples because he was given an insane amount of physical strength through the power of the Holy Spirit. 


[00:41:23] But it was something that was done based on a condition of obedience. And it was an oddly specific one where he had to leave his hair long. And some people think that's kind of weird. Okay, why would God give such a weird, random hair of all things, come on, but the reality is when you look at a number of different stories, there are seemingly arbitrary things that God asks people to do to walk around the walls of Jericho to throw a stick into the water, and then that will cause an axe head to come up to ask a man to bathe in the Jordan River seven times. 


[00:41:56] And then he'll be cured of leprosy. God asks you to do things that are strange sometimes because 


[00:42:06] there are things that you would expect, things that you would accept, things that you would think, okay this is what I have to do and then because I did X, I will get Y. Sometimes God asks you to do an odd thing or he holds things back for odd reasons because then you know it, there's no other explanation, it had to be him. 


[00:42:27] It is such a strange thing. There's no other explanation. It had to be God. You can't possibly explain in any scientific way why a long hair would give someone super strength. 


[00:42:39] Cody: No. Yeah. 


[00:42:40] Ben: And it seems like an arbitrary thing, but God said, no, don't touch your hair. It is a specific thing. It's a simple thing. 


[00:42:47] It's an easy thing. And yet Samson couldn't help but tell someone it was his hair. Because, well, it's not specifically said why, but it's implied, one, because he was getting frustrated. But also, it seems to be because he didn't think that it would actually leave him. It seems to be that he thought he was actually invincible. 


[00:43:10] That the strength was truly his. And when his hair was gone, it was revealed, no. It's God's. It was always God's. And obedience to him was what gave him his strength. 


[00:43:22] Cody: Yep. Obedience. Yep. Stories that are so crazy that it can only be God. Yep. I like the bronze serpent one. That's just it. So crazy it has to be true. 


[00:43:34] Gina: So if God loves us, why does it sometimes feel like he is constantly punishing us? 


[00:43:47] Cody: Because we're stupid. 


[00:43:51] Ben: This kind of goes back to the periods of time where we feel he's distant and where hard times are happening and We don't understand. You know, Bad things can happen for a number of different reasons, and we also addressed this with the Job story. We won't always be given an explanation as to why. 


[00:44:11] What's important during those time periods is that you choose to be faithful to God, and that you remember that He is who He is, that He loves you, and that He's allowing this to happen to you for your benefit, even if you don't see how it's even possible that could be. Sometimes it's to refine you as gold is refined in the fire. 


[00:44:29] Sometimes it's meant to teach you something, and sometimes it is because of our own doing. And I think it's that more often than we'd like to admit. Sometimes we're making decisions that put a wedge between us and God. We develop an addiction to something that is unhealthy for us. And it's not always something as nefarious as pornography or drugs or whatever. 


[00:44:53] Sometimes. We develop an addiction to a TV show or something. It could be that there was a period of time in your life where you were reading the Bible regularly at night, and you started edging that out because that was the disposable thing in your life. And you start replacing that with something that will satisfy yourself. 


[00:45:13] So, it's not always. Because you deserve it. The story of Job demonstrates that, but I would say that a lot of time it is not specifically that you deserve it, but that you're doing something that's pushing God out. And when you push God out, something else will take his place. And if it's not God, it's not good. 


[00:45:32] Gina: Oh, T shirt. 


[00:45:36] Cody: Well, that would be a good T shirt. 


[00:45:38] Gina: So as far as the different comparisons that you're making between the Old Testament and now, Is God somehow different? Like, then versus now? 


[00:45:49] Ben: Well, no. So, there is a, another verse that says that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. He's unchanging. He is as good now as he was then. 


[00:46:00] The main difference, and I think we will cover this more when we cover the scriptures themselves. When Christ came, He paid the ultimate price for our sin. All sin, the wages of it is death. The free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord. When you look at the Old Testament, There are people there, one, Christ's sacrifice hadn't been done yet, but even setting that aside, these were people who knew, they knew God very well. 


[00:46:31] They saw the fruits of God's labor. They knew him intimately in many cases. And there are points where God revealed himself in his entirety to all of Israel. There's one story in particular where he does actually reveal himself completely, bypassing Moses entirely. And all of Israel hears him and they're terrified and they shrink away. 


[00:46:54] It is through Jesus and through the Spirit that we're able to gain a better access to God. And so, it may seem like he's different, it really isn't. The law now is written on our hearts, and we have access to God through the Holy Spirit. And so Much of the distance that existed because of our sin that pushed him away from us is not there so much. 


[00:47:18] And when you look at a lot of the punishments that were doled out, it was to people who knew better than what they were doing. Now granted, You can say that we'd know better than to do the things that we're doing now, and I would say yes, absolutely. 


[00:47:30] Cody: No, it's, I think people forget too, and one of the reasons why I kind of dislike the New Testament, Old Testament makeup is because you have thousands of years of the Old Testament and the New Testament is centered around about a hundred years. 


[00:47:50] So, it is very small that you can even say that, okay, the God of the New Testament and Old Testament are different. Because it's a very small scope. And then, they forget that in Revelation, it's talking about how Jesus is gonna come back and judge everybody and throw the sinners in the lake of fire. So like, it's not, there is no difference. 


[00:48:13] Ben: Yeah, you bring up a very good point. So, in both the Old and the New Testament. God is represented as both being completely just, but also being completely merciful. We do tend to focus a lot more on the mercy aspect, in part because we love that. We all know that we've sinned. We all know that we've done horrible things. 


[00:48:33] Or most of us do. But we all recognize that God loving us is a wonderful thing, and we love to focus on that love. But the book of Revelation, And a number of points throughout the New Testament even, indicate that God is still just. He is aware of the fact that humanity has placed a wedge between us and Him. 


[00:48:52] And in the end, He is going to judge all of humanity. And that judgment is going to be harsh, it's going to be hard, it's not going to be pleasant. But even looking at the Old Testament. There's the story of Jonah. I don't know how familiar our listeners are with the Assyrian Empire or the story of Jonah, but the idea is that Jonah is a prophet and he's told to go to Nineveh, which is the capital of the Assyrian Empire. 


[00:49:17] The Assyrians are some of the worst people of the ancient world. They would go to various cities that they conquer and they would completely exterminate the populations. They would dash the heads of babies against walls. They would rape, pillage, and plunder. They would do all of the worst things that you could possibly imagine. 


[00:49:32] They kind of made it into a game to see how horrible they could be. Jonah was asked to go to these people, to warn them. And Jonah didn't want to go for a number of reasons, but one of the reasons he gives towards the end is very telling, where he says, I know that you are slow to anger, abundant in mercy, and you are going to give them a chance to repent. 


[00:49:54] And you have, and you've spared them. The worst people you can imagine. That's one of the starkest examples of God's mercy anywhere. The greatest is obviously sending Jesus Christ, which we will cover in the next episode. But in the Old Testament, there is no greater example of God showing his mercy to a people than the capital of one of the most egregious abusers of human rights in any time period. 


[00:50:26] Some of the worst people you can imagine doing some of the worst crimes you can imagine. And God looks lovingly on these people and says, I will send someone to save you. I will send someone to warn you, and if you don't turn, I'll punish you. But if you do, I will accept, and I will turn my wrath away from you. 


[00:50:44] So, I do think that we have a tendency as Christians, like you said, to focus on the Old Testament and New Testament as completely different. And there are differences to be sure, but God is the same between the two of them. And He longs to show mercy, but part of His character is mercy. His unchanging character is also justice and he has to act on both. 


[00:51:07] Gina: Thank you so much for taking the time to listen to our podcast today. If you liked what you heard, please feel free to subscribe and share and leave a positive review. And if you would like to connect with us on social media, you can do so on Instagram and Facebook at the Logic of God. You can also send us an email at Maine dot The Logic of god@gmail.com. 


[00:51:30] Thanks again for listening, we hope you have a great day.