How Should We Approach Disagreement And Debate Part 2

[00:00:00] Cody: Hi, thank you for tuning in to the Logic of God podcast. I'm Cody. 


[00:00:14] Gina: I'm Gina. 


[00:00:15] Cody: And I'm Ben. If you're returning, thank you for coming back and if you are a new guest, welcome. 


[00:00:33] Gina: So how do you trust your own interpretation of Bible reading? 


[00:00:38] Cody: You don't. 


[00:00:40] Gina: Don't lean on your own understanding. 


[00:00:42] Cody: Yeah. A lot of interpretation, and I think I've talked about this before on previous episodes, but if you go into Bible study with the intention to disprove somebody, you're probably interpreting Bible not through the correct lens. 


[00:00:59] You're not in the right heart posture or mindset to interpret scripture if your sole intent is to prove somebody else wrong. Now that could be edifying to an extent, but I think that's more of a collateral advantage than, you know, a true fruit of going in with that heart or mind posture. But I don't know. 


[00:01:22] I think to myself or I tell myself that I'm probably wrong about stuff But that pushes me to study further and instead of just going through one or two experts I beat the dead horse and look at a lot of experts 


[00:01:38] Gina: Use resources that are trustworthy. 


[00:01:40] Cody: Yeah, I mean you stuff that is well reviewed or well respected for sure The peer review process is great, but don't just stop with one peer reviewed article Go through many of those, read some dead people, I always say that is all of the problems the church has now, guaranteed they've been facing for thousands of years in the past at one point in time. 


[00:02:04] You can usually find something that speaks to your specific issue or what you're trying to get through and any of the past or early church fathers pretty easily. There's a lot of great search engines out there outside of Google as well. 


[00:02:20] Ben: I also don't think that we need to put down our own reason, our own capacity to figure out what the Bible is saying aside. 


[00:02:28] Like, we don't need to downplay that. This is Homily 33 on Acts, which I thought was really good, and I'm gonna hopefully not go too far into it, because there's a lot to quote here, but it's a good section. But which am I to believe, knowing as I do nothing at all of the scriptures? The others will also allege the same thing for themselves. 


[00:02:48] What then if the others come and say that the Scripture has this, and you that it has something different, and you interpret the Scriptures diversely, dragging their sense each to his own way? And you then, I ask, have you no understanding, no judgment? If he should say what you say about the Christians, there is such and such a multitude of men and they have different doctrines. 


[00:03:09] This is a heathen, that is a Jew, the other is a Christian, no need to accept any doctrine whatever, for they are at variance one with another. But I am a learner, and I do not wish to be judged. But, if you have yielded so far as to pronounce against one doctrine, this pretext no longer has place for you. 


[00:03:27] For just as you were able to reject the spurious, so here also you shall be able to prove what is profitable. Let us not make pretexts and excuses. And all will be easy. So break that down in layman's terms. So basically, the author there is having a mock conversation with himself, theorizing what someone who's brand new to Christianity might say, in kind of defense of their own ignorance, and not wanting to take sides. 


[00:03:55] There's just so much out there. There's no way for me to possibly know. And you might say something is doctrine, but other people are saying this other thing is doctrine, and they say that you're heathens, and you say that they're heathens. I just have no way of knowing. And what the author was saying was, you have the faculties to be able to look at something and say it's absurd. 


[00:04:13] Once you say that about one thing, you've admitted the fact that you're capable of reason. And from that, you should be able to trust yourself to work through this. All will be made easy. And we don't even just need to rely on rationality. If we genuinely believe that the power of the Holy Spirit can teach us things and do work within us, then we should be able to trust that plain reading of the Scripture will get us something. 


[00:04:36] Not that study of the Scripture has no merit at all, because studying the Scriptures and figuring out their original context is very important and it's very edifying. But that's an additional step. At the surface level, you can do plain reading of scripture and learn a lot when you read the Proverbs. 


[00:04:52] You don't need a degree in philosophy to figure out what, what Solomon is saying. He's writing for the benefit of his children. He's writing in a way that people can understand. And the truth is that the vast majority of letters that were written by Paul that were written by the apostles were meant to be read and understood by the layman of their time. 


[00:05:13] They weren't written for theological scholars. It was the good news. Jesus himself was preaching to the average, everyday person. And yeah, there's a lot of depth to what was taught, but that depth you can learn over time. There is the base gospel message, and you can very easily understand that. As far as what we can trust, God has given you a degree of reason. 


[00:05:34] Some of us have an easier time working through reason and what we think than others. And some people have, you know, A much more emotional connection through which they can more easily hear the Holy Spirit's voice. If you genuinely seek, you will find, either way. But honestly, I find that where a lot of people start to stumble is when they start listening to other people explain what the Bible means. 


[00:05:56] Sadly, I see a lot of this in Like, there was a recent debate that I saw between, not, it wasn't a recent debate, but it's just a debate that I recently saw that was an older debate, maybe 10 years old, between James White and there was a Catholic apologist, and they were talking about whether the apocryphal books were part of scripture. 


[00:06:13] And there's the book of Judith, which has multiple very clear historical errors in it. Like, it says that Nebuchadnezzar reigned from the capital of Syria. Which he did not. Yeah, it says Nineveh. He reigned from Nineveh. And that he reigned in a time period where he didn't reign. That the temple was rebuilt before it was destroyed. 


[00:06:34] It has a lot of very serious inaccuracies that are really hard to justify. And when James White brought this up, and the Catholic apologist was confronted with this, he didn't have a good explanation for why this would be scripture. But essentially he said, we have to start from the position that it's scripture. 


[00:06:54] And then from there we have to say that everything in it is true or explainable. Not that because everything in it is true, and God breathed and inspired. That it's scripture, but that we have to say that it's scripture first, and then it's God breathed and inspired. And I find that a lot of these high level, high minded theological discussions are where people are so smart they come around back to being stupid again. 


[00:07:18] They can just convince themselves of anything. I've done this too. This isn't to throw any shade against the guy that Dr. White was debating, because I find that for smart people, And I don't even know that I should call myself that. We, we tend to overthink things to the point we become complete idiots. 


[00:07:32] And it's the simple things of this world that are used to shame the wise. 


[00:07:36] Cody: Yeah. That's why I dislike presuppositional apologetics, but. 


[00:07:41] Ben: Which is unfortunate because we have our five presuppositions. 


[00:07:44] Cody: Yeah. 


[00:07:45] Ben: Yeah. Gina, you've included in this outline, a point on judgment by judgment. Do you mean like discernment, like figuring things out, or do you mean judgment as in judging other people? 


[00:07:54] Gina: Judging other people. Yeah. 


[00:07:56] Ben: Alright, so do you think that there is any point where we can judge believers, non believers, anybody? Is there anybody that we can pass judgment upon? 


[00:08:05] Gina: There's a difference between holy judgment and human judgment. I don't believe that we can pass any form of holy judgment. I don't think that we can make an evaluation on somebody's salvation short of them just saying they're not Christian. 


[00:08:20] Then at that point, they've claimed their own eternity for themselves. But outside of that, I don't think that it is right or acceptable for Christians to declare somebody else's salvation for them. I think that in aggressive arguments with believers and non believers, it becomes really easy to get angry and then you throw your judgment in there. 


[00:08:42] And that would be what I would say is human judgment. There are some examples in scripture that allow for that, but usually it's between believers, not a believer and a non believer. 


[00:08:53] Cody: The judgment thing, I think, gets thrown around quite a bit, especially by non Christians. They tend to cite, judge not lest ye be judged, but I think a better, and this is why research and translations matter, is because I think a better, More accurate translation for that is judge not unrighteously, lest thee be judged, to the same accord of what you are judging that other person to. 


[00:09:20] But I think we are called to judge to an extent. We're told to keep our brothers and sisters accountable. And I think this is where the modern day gets judgment mixed up with just automatically being. Condemning that person, a rebuke or reproof shouldn't be taken as condemnation. If you're doing it accurately, usually you're trying to better that person and help them rather than condemn them. 


[00:09:51] But that is obviously not always the case. There's lots of, what is that famous Westboro or Southboro 


[00:09:58] Ben: Baptist church. 


[00:09:59] Cody: That is not a good form of rebuke, in my opinion. 


[00:10:03] Ben: I think the question is, where are you assuming the authority lies when you're making a judgmental assessment? Are you thinking that you are capable of analyzing the person's soul through what they're doing, and declaring, through the power of God, through your voice alone, they are never going to enter the Holy Kingdom, they are going to the outer darkness, and And condemned to the pits of hell for all eternity. 


[00:10:26] You are doing that. In many ways, I think that's what this discussion is about. Are you recognizing that someone is doing something wrong? In which case, you're recognizing God's authority, because God has passed down to us what's right and what's wrong. And so if you have a brother or sister who is living in a way that That doesn't line up with scripture. 


[00:10:44] You're right, Cody. Like, it's on us to hold one another accountable. And this is something that Paul literally does. There is a man who is with his father's wife, and you are proud of this? Why didn't you cast this person out from amongst your company? Paul makes it abundantly clear what our role is here. 


[00:11:01] We're not pronouncing judgment on someone's eternal soul. Rather, we're looking at what a person is doing. And comparing it to the Bible and saying that doesn't line up with what we're supposed to be doing. Now, I do think that there is the distinction between, you know, looking at a brother or sister in Christ's life and looking at a non believer's life. 


[00:11:21] But I don't know. What do you guys think? Is it different for someone in the church versus outside the church? 


[00:11:25] Gina: Definitely. Nobody ever got saved by being called an abomination. I say that sometimes, but I genuinely mean that. If you're going to be a representative of Christ and of your church, the big C church, you have to be really cautious how you speak to other people in judgment and in correction because you can give them a taste in their mouth that keeps them out of church forever. 


[00:11:49] And that really defeats the purpose of the conversation in my opinion. Like why even have a debate or a discussion at that point if you're just going to turn them away. 


[00:11:59] Cody: Yeah, I think it's clear in the scripture you mentioned about the sexually immoral, uh, inside the church was directed at the congregants and what they were allowing amongst themselves. 


[00:12:12] It, and it actually, it's clear. Was one of the verses that I highlighted. It's first Corinthians 1 9 through 13 I write to you in my letter not to associate with sexual immoral people not at all meaning the people of this world Who are immoral or greedy and swindlers or idolaters? In that case, you would have to leave this world. 


[00:12:33] But now I'm writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister, that's in Christ, but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolator or slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. Do not even eat with such people. What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? 


[00:12:54] Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. Expel the wicked person from among you. So Paul is telling us that it is our job to judge the people inside because they have agreed to be upheld by the standards written in the Bible. Those outside do not. So you don't hold them to the same accountability as those inside the church. 


[00:13:20] God will take care of those. You still preach and show those outside loving inside as well, but we are to correct and You know how, how Paul also talks about presenting your wife, we're supposed to cover our wives in the word, the water and present them without blemish. I think that's also should be a goal of other Christians. 


[00:13:41] If you're in a community, you're trying to cover them in the word, you use scripture as your foundation for rebuke, but you try to present them or make sure that they're presenting themselves as without blemish. 


[00:13:56] Ben: Yeah, I agree. And I don't think it gets much more clear than what Paul said there, as he covered literally everything. 


[00:14:02] Who are we to judge the people outside the church? Now I don't think that means that you just leave all reason at the door whenever you exit the church. And you're like, okay, everyone outside the church, I just, I don't know. They're just doing whatever they're doing. Just chill lives. What does 


[00:14:17] Gina: it mean when you're among the Gentiles to live as a Gentile? 


[00:14:21] That's a verse people have used in this context. I'm just curious what you think. 


[00:14:24] Ben: When in Rome, live as the Romans do. Part of this discussion was addressed by Paul in terms of the cultural practice of eating food sacrificed to idols. On its surface, that sounds like an absolutely horrible thing you should never do. 


[00:14:39] Idols are very and the sacrifices done to them are in the name of the false gods who are demons, and an idol's not even a thing in and of itself. At best, you're Sacrificing to things of wood and stone and metal and at worst you're literally sacrificing to demons So why are you eating that food? You would think the answer to that question can I eat food sacrifice to an idol would be absolutely not never no That's disgusting terrible. 


[00:15:04] You're evil for even thinking about doing it. May you rot in hell forever That's not the position that Paul takes what Paul says is what it's food You give thanks in your heart, you're giving thanks to God, whatever it is you're eating, give thanks for it, and if it's unto the Lord, then yeah, it's fine. 


[00:15:20] Now, the problem comes from if there's another brother or sister who is very adamantly against it, who doesn't share your faith and your confidence, sees you doing that, And then that, because they don't understand, causes them to stumble in some way. They either fall away from the faith, or it strikes up a very ardent discussion, which you know will ensue. 


[00:15:39] That's where you start to get into the rockier territory, but as far as the act itself, in this case the cultural practice of eating food sacrificed to idols of being a part of these festivals, Paul said you can absolutely do it, but don't let your knowledge that you can destroy a brother or sister. And that's what it means, essentially, to live amongst the Gentiles, to be in the world but not be of it. 


[00:16:00] There are cultural practices and things that people outside of the church do in their everyday lives, and we can be a part of that. In fact, we should be. We need to be able to brush shoulders with people to be able to talk to them about Jesus. I came from A culture, a Christian subculture in America, in small town America, I moved from a tiny town in middle of nowhere Wisconsin to just a reasonably sized city, and I didn't, I practically spoke a different language, I spoke Christianese almost exclusively, people thought I was really weird, they were scared of me, they thought I was some kind of serial killer who was going to murder them. 


[00:16:35] And I didn't know any of the references that they were making culturally. And so there was a divide between me and them. And over time, I did eventually cross that divide. And I'm now very capable of talking with people who share my culture, which is American culture, modern American culture. And you can make arguments that modern American culture isn't good or whatever. 


[00:16:55] The point is that I speak the same language, and so I can reach out to them. What Paul said, I am whoever I need to be in order to reach the people I'm speaking to. That doesn't mean you cross over into sin, and that does take a degree of wisdom and discretion, and you need to be aware of your brothers and sisters around you, and how it is they're going to take what you do with the liberty in which you approach your actions. 


[00:17:17] But, you don't create a wall so great that no one can cross it. You don't create a wall and say the evil people who aren't the church are out there and I'm in here. Because you're not gonna reach anybody that way. It's like you say, Gina, no one got saved by being called an abomination. Similarly, nobody got saved by not being talked to. 


[00:17:35] Gina: All really good points. 


[00:17:36] Ben: Thank you. 


[00:17:38] Gina: Cody's done. 


[00:17:39] Ben: I'm not done. What's next? Yeah, what is next? 


[00:17:43] Gina: What about the power of words? Do our words have power, like spiritual power? 


[00:17:48] Cody: I think so, yes. There is a lot of scientific, just to go on a just weird turn, there is a lot of scientific Before 


[00:17:58] Gina: you talk, don't you dare say it about my plant. 


[00:18:00] Ben: Yes. Cover its ears! 


[00:18:02] Cody: Cover its ears. But just the mentality you take with plants, and if you go in screaming at them, calling them names are derogatory and negative, and the Opposite side of that, you're uplifting, you talk to them, you're positive. The negative one will die and produce less fruit, and the one you're positive to is usually more fruitful and flourishes. 


[00:18:30] So even with plants, there is, and they can't measure why that's happening, but it is happening and they can verify it and repeat the process over and over again. So, just on, just reading that, nothing to do with the Bible at all, there is plausibility and your words have power. 


[00:18:51] Gina: Isn't that just an example of manifestation? 


[00:18:54] Cody: You speak it into existence? 


[00:18:56] Gina: Yeah. 


[00:18:57] Cody: Without the Bible, I guess you could take it that way. I would 


[00:18:59] Ben: argue, no. So it's. Essentially mirroring in a strange scientific way the idea that sin corrupts. It's not manifesting anything. You're not actively telling the plant, Hey, grow. I am imagine I am imagining you are growing. 


[00:19:16] You are growing into a mighty tree. Your fruits will be massive and you will feed my whole family. You're not speaking what you want into reality. It's the content of what you're saying and the meaning behind it. If you're aggressively going up to your plant and saying nothing but horrible, awful things, with bile coming out of your mouth, versus saying really nice, encouraging things, your plant In one sense is being destroyed and in the other sense is being built up. 


[00:19:43] I think that's the general idea. 


[00:19:45] Cody: Yeah. 


[00:19:46] Ben: See, I'm definitely not making the argument and Cody's definitely not making the argument that you can manifest there. What Gina is talking about is there's this kind of general idea that's becoming very popular for some reason. If 


[00:20:01] Gina: I say it. It's real. 


[00:20:03] Ben: You speak it into existence. 


[00:20:05] You say the thing that you want to happen and if you really believe it, you really believe it because you believe it and because you said it out loud, it'll happen. 


[00:20:15] Gina: And a lot of times people get paranoid because they'll say, I'm scared that I have a lump and it might be cancer and if I say that then it will be cancer because I'm manifesting it or something along those lines and it's no, actually, no. 


[00:20:30] Ben: Now, to an extent, I think that there is some truth. In this idea, not that you can actually manifest things by saying and believing them. But, let's say that you have a goal, something that you're trying really hard to do. Let's say that you want to learn a language. If you just internalize that, it's probably not going to go anywhere. 


[00:20:49] But if you actively tell other people, you know what? I want to learn a language. You externalize it. Suddenly more people are going to be more likely to ask you, Hey, how's it going learning a language? And if you've literally made no progress, it's You got to tell these people that you have made no progress and so or you 


[00:21:05] Gina: just pull a cody and tell everyone the Japanese 


[00:21:08] Cody: everyone And actually you told her I knew 


[00:21:15] Gina: it I don't even remember how it started I said 


[00:21:17] Cody: nothing I just speak gibberish 


[00:21:22] Ben: But yeah when you actually Externalize things. 


[00:21:25] They're more likely to happen if only because more people are going to hold you accountable. And because you've now made it not something that's just sitting inside your heart, something that you feel, but you're never going to act on. Suddenly it's something that you've externalized. And there's a lot of Psychological work that hasn't been disproven yet to back that up. 


[00:21:44] Cody: No, and I do think I agree with you on that, the manifesting it, quote unquote. If you wake up and pray for something every day, or even say something every day, and that is constantly in your mind, and you constantly strive for that, I think that is not manifesting. You're going to have to work hard for it still, but versus you just, if I sit here and my feet are going to grow to be size 17, like that's not going to happen. 


[00:22:15] Gina: With negative manifestation, there's like something called the body keeps score. And I think that is more logical. The body keeps score is more like if you have trauma that you haven't dealt with, or if you have an old medical issue that you didn't deal with, it will build up in your body to a toxic point, causing major issues. 


[00:22:40] Emotional trauma can be caused by words. Words can bring death or life, so if your body is keeping score and you've had death spoken over you your whole life, then it could be logical that your body is sick or your mind is sick because of the death that's been spoken over you. 


[00:23:00] Cody: I think Jordan Peterson actually talks quite a bit about this. 


[00:23:05] There's one of his short clips that I've seen recently about his patients that he saw, and they're in a clear trouble spot where they're at, and like, they can't think of why that would possibly be happening to him, but he'll walk them back to a certain point in their life where they thought, it's, the, the, I can't remember the analogy that he uses, but he talks about how they're, they did something and they thought they got away with it, and they're trying to twist the fabric of reality. 


[00:23:39] And I think he's talking about sin, actually, but that it'll catch up with you. And I think he also talks about smoking. Smoking, in the moment, you don't reap any of the negative side effects. In the moment when you smoke your first cigarette, but if you keep doing it day after day, you are going to most likely get lung cancer or mouth cancer or something of the sort. 


[00:24:03] So it, it catches up to you. 


[00:24:06] Gina: Why does this matter in argument and debate? 


[00:24:09] Ben: Because argument and debate is done through speech. We got to talk to people to argue with them or discuss with them. And it's a very humbling thing to know that your words can either change a person's life for the best. Or completely destroy them. 


[00:24:24] Cody: And it could be people like, know your audience we've talked about. Could be somebody else watching you just be this terrible Christian debating this atheist. And they're like, I don't want any part of this Christianity if that's how those people act. You've got to be Condemn their soul by your actions. 


[00:24:44] And James, I think James three, one talks about leaders and not many of them, not many people should be leaders because they will be judged more strictly. And if you're getting into a teaching or debate type mentality or discussion. And you're going to be held responsible, I think, at the end times when you're being judged by Christ about that person because you were acting like a complete fool trying to win the argument and you didn't show the love of Christ at all and you're speaking down on them and you caused that other person to fall or not go the direction he should have gone. 


[00:25:29] Gina: But isn't that an excuse? Shouldn't they just have thicker skin? 


[00:25:32] Ben: So thicker skin is definitely something all of us should just be seeking generally to have. We shouldn't be looking to take offense to the things that people say. At the same time, we also need to be aware of the fact not everyone has it. 


[00:25:46] And we shouldn't be using that fact as an excuse to just say whatever we want and say, They should have this, therefore I'm going to treat them with a measure of abuse. It's not good for your own soul to be acting that way. If you're approaching discussion with a spirit of cruelty, then you will become a cruel person. 


[00:26:04] And there's no room for someone like that in the Kingdom of Heaven. There just isn't. It all depends on the attitude with which you're approaching these things. And, in part, the result. Now, the result, in the end, is in God's hands. God is the one who calls people to Him. But, you control your own effort. You control your own intent. 


[00:26:22] And again, if you're coming into these discussions with the intent of I am going to win, I am going to have the glory, I am a proud person, and I'm going to show this person how stupid they are. There's no glory for God in that, even if you win. And believe me, it's very easy to win arguments. People do it all the time. 


[00:26:41] Gina: It's real hard to win a soul. 


[00:26:43] Ben: So yeah, if all you want to do is win, You don't have to be right. Winning is easy, being right is very difficult, and helping someone, convincing someone, actually convincing somebody is really hard. 


[00:26:56] Gina: So how do you, what do you do, how do you respond when you've had these conversations with somebody and you've debated and discussed and argued and prayed and hopefully spoke a lot of life over them, and they're still like, nah, what do you do, when do you give up? 


[00:27:11] Ben: Yeah, I had to face this particular question back when my brother Jack was still alive. He was both converting to Judaism and engaging in an adulterous relationship with a married woman, which was very confusing for me and my family. And we didn't understand why he was taking the position of Judaism was correct and simultaneously not following any of the things taught by Judaism. 


[00:27:36] Because neither Jew nor Christian looks at that kind of a relationship and says it's okay. But my brother was actively trying to justify it. And he was trying to justify why he didn't believe in Christianity despite the fact that for most of his life he was a Christian. And there were so many arguments that I had with him. 


[00:27:53] And I won probably 99 percent of the arguments that I had with him. And he didn't, he wasn't convinced. Hey, this is one of the reasons why I have the opinion about winning arguments that I do, because I won. He would have said I won, and I felt like I was right, and maybe I was right about most of the things. 


[00:28:09] In fact, as far as Christ goes, yes, I was, but I wasn't approaching it in the right spirit. I was thinking, no, he's wrong, and he's stupid, and he's dumb for having left Christianity, and in some way I feel betrayed, and I feel like he's betrayed everything that he's believed in, and so I'm gonna show him how stupid and wrong he is. 


[00:28:27] I was approaching it with a spirit of pride, and it didn't help my brother. And it wasn't until closer to the end of his life when both I and my father started approaching it very differently. And suddenly our discussions about Christianity and Judaism started to become much less frequent. And when they happened, they were much more loving and kind. 


[00:28:45] And mostly we just focused on loving him and letting him know that we loved him. And just letting his own actions speak for themselves. He was his own teacher at that point. And there's a section in the Bible where Paul talks about handing someone over to Satan for them to be saved. At some point, it's not that you absolve yourself of concern. 


[00:29:07] It's not that you stop praying necessarily, although we talked about that before. There is a point where you can just say, Lord, it's in your hands. And you've made it clear to me that it's done. In truth, I never stopped praying for my brother. And I never stopped loving him, even to the day that he died. 


[00:29:22] But there was a point where I didn't feel it was my job to spell out to him how wrong he was every time we saw each other. And our relationship was much better for it. And at that point, he could look at his own actions. He wasn't focused on proving me wrong or arguing with me. He was just focused on the fruits of his own labor. 


[00:29:43] And you know a tree by its fruit, and by the end he knew that what he was growing wasn't good. But, that's the truth. You, you don't have control over the other person. You have control over yourself. And if you're finding that your discussions are actually making you a worse person, then you need to reassess why you're having those discussions. 


[00:30:01] Gina: Thank you for sharing that. I wrote this question at the very bottom. It says, Can we take it too far when teaching others evangelizing or debating? And if it's God's desire to have everyone saved, should we endeavor to make that happen at all costs? Are numbers what we're after? Or is it the depth of the relationship that matters? 


[00:30:22] If I get a million people to repeat after me, is it as meaningful for their eternity as it would be if I had discipled somebody, just one person? 


[00:30:32] Ben: So I've seen so many churches report a decrease in attendance. And so many of them, so many churches, so many people in church leadership have taken the position that because not that many people are coming to church as there used to be, we need to make changes. 


[00:30:50] Some people take that to be a change in presentation, a change in the worship music that we sing, and to an extent I can understand that. But some take it as we need to change the way that we present the gospel. And for many of those churches, they see a short term boost in the number of people who come in. 


[00:31:10] Because you're just telling everybody a watered down version of the gospel. Jesus loves you. He wants you to come in. He wants you to be happy. He wants you to have a good time. But after a while, people realize that's the whole substance of what you have. That's it. They get it on day one. There's no more depth. 


[00:31:27] There's nothing more to learn. And so as a result, either they fall away from the faith, Or they inject more of their own opinions into the faith and further lead the church aside. Or you have a splintering of the church where the people who are really hungry for something more find they're not being fed, and so they go somewhere else. 


[00:31:45] And they bring a whole bunch of those same like minded people from the church with them. 


[00:31:50] Gina: Is that shallow Thanksgiving kind of thing that they've got going on the reason why we end up in these debates to begin with? 


[00:31:59] Ben: Shallow Thanksgiving, what do you mean? 


[00:32:00] Gina: Like, the feast of the good feelings at church. 


[00:32:05] Ben: I think there are going to be seasons in the church's life where there aren't going to be as many people actively seeking because they don't want to feel convicted of the things they know they're doing wrong. 


[00:32:15] In those times, the church needs the most to step up and reveal the gospel message. And again, it's not on you if someone listens. It's on you how you approach speaking to them. You can't control the result, you can control your own effort. And you can, to some extent, control your own heart. We're not called to force everyone to believe. 


[00:32:39] And we shouldn't be looking at the decrease in the number of people attending. And in parts of the U. S. it's actually going up. But there are some churches who are sticking true to the gospel message. And they find that, one, the people who are attending, they're being fed. And that's one of the biggest concerns you should have in the church. 


[00:32:58] It's one of the two. One, are you reaching people outside of the church? And two, are you feeding the people who are coming? You can't sacrifice one for the other. But I am finding that way too many people are sacrificing one for the other now. And so we're not getting these incredible warrior brothers and sisters in Christ. 


[00:33:17] We're supposed to be warriors. We're supposed to be soldiers. But we're not being equipped. Because there's a fear that people will hear something other than this watered down milk version of the Bible and be terrified. Or, Lord forbid, you find out that there's a measure of responsibility you're not living up to. 


[00:33:35] That's true for all of us. Recently, that was something that I was convicted of. It was before we started doing this podcast. I was convicted of the fact I just wasn't doing much. I was going once a week to church and that was it. I wasn't talking to anybody. I went in, sang the songs, listened to the guy talk, and then I went home. 


[00:33:51] But now I started doing this podcast with you and Cody, Gina. And I started doing some projects with Cody working in the community. And I. I started doing more things as acts of service for my family, and that's a huge change. That's the measure of feeding we're supposed to be getting from the church. 


[00:34:11] That's what I hope everybody gets from the church. But if you're actively trying to keep them from leaving, so you don't push them to have that, then what's the point? You're just trying to get people to sit in seats so that, what, for what purpose? So they can stay as children, spiritual children, for the rest of their lives, and hope that they can pass through the gates of heaven. 


[00:34:31] That seems to be the reasoning. As long as they're in church, they're not in hell. 


[00:34:35] Cody: One of the things on that I've seen and have tried to call out, um, and do my best to counteract it. It seems like in, in the parable of the sower you have multiple soil types and it seems like the mega churches and the Prosperity gospel churches are sowing seed only on the, I think it's the rocky path. 


[00:35:04] The one that sprouts up super fast, is on fire for God, looks great, but is choked out because it's not getting, like it's not in the proper healthy soil. It's not getting that foundation of faith to grow correctly and stay. rooted in the soil and you get the numbers there because you're just sowing so much seed on this rocky path and it's shooting up and it looks great and you have all of these plants growing they look like they're growing but at the end they end up just withering in the sun and dying because anytime something counteracts what they have been taught or they realize that it's just the same thing on repeat. 


[00:35:50] they fall away because they have no other foundation to stand on. And you've been talking about Just, the salvation is not on the preacher or any one person for any other individual than yourself. And Paul talks about, Paul's going to plant the seed, Apollos is going to water it, but the growth is to God. 


[00:36:14] But we need to continually water that. 


[00:36:18] Gina: And pull the rocks out and till the 


[00:36:21] Cody: soil. Soil preparation. Stupid, but prep the soil for people. Give them a good foundation, continue to put nutrients, the other aspects of scripture into that, their growth so that they're fed and, and continue to grow. 


[00:36:40] Gina: And that's not just their responsibility of the church, it's our own individual responsibility. 


[00:36:44] And part of soil preparation is preparing our heart to deal with these interactions. Because you gotta expect the unexpected. You have to make sure that you know the who, what, when, where, and why. You have to know your Bible and be able to steer people to that and have it a response for everything. The Bible tells us that. 


[00:37:03] We have to have a defense for everything. Your soil preparation is good soil preparation for somebody else and sets an example that is going to be sustainable for others. So then you're prepared for discipleship. 


[00:37:18] Ben: And what I think is so interesting about the parable that you just cited, Cody, when you think about it, what is soil? 


[00:37:26] It's the plants of the past that have fallen, decomposed, and then the new plants take that in. You need to be tapped into the people who've come before you. You need to be tapped into the people around you. You need to be tapped into the church. You need to be pulling from the wisdom of your fathers, from the wisdom of the church that came before us, from the scripture. 


[00:37:51] From what's been passed on to us. And you need to be pulling from the people around you. You need to be built up by your church brothers and sisters. And them holding you accountable. And together, we're all able to raise one another up. If you don't have that, then there's no point. If you decide that all that matters is just Getting people in and that's it. 


[00:38:13] There is no pulling. There is no, the only way that we get that depth is in part through that leadership, but also through the encouragement of the people around us. Yet you have to be pushed to tap that soil. You have to be pushed to be planted there. 


[00:38:27] Gina: I don't know. It's if somebody's hanging onto a cliff edge and they're like, help me. 


[00:38:32] And you like boop them on the nose instead of grabbing them by the hand. It takes a lot of work to lift somebody up out of that. It's not easy and sometimes you need help. 


[00:38:43] Ben: Yeah, and what is it that James says? There's a, a portion where he's talking about how, what's the point if someone comes to you hungry and you say, I'll be praying for you. 


[00:38:51] Keep warm and well fed. What's the value of your faith? I'll show you my faith by what I do. If we're just interested in winning, if we're just interested in getting butts in seats, what is the value of our faith? What's the value of our prayers? What is the fruit of our labor? There won't be any. 


[00:39:08] Gina: But I'm not seeing a lot of fruit right now. 


[00:39:11] Especially as a woman. And that's why Cody's example to me has been very helpful, but it's not a common thing in women to have these theological debates and discussions. I have a lot of female friends and most of them love talking about what they're reading in the Bible and stuff, but they don't want to be challenged or they don't want to share what they know. 


[00:39:34] And I struggle with that because, like you said, we're warriors, like, we're meant to be soldiers for God. And there's this, like, really diluted, I don't know, culture of women in Christianity right now that I don't like. 


[00:39:49] Ben: I do think that a lot of it does actually have to do with the fact that marriage rates are non existent. 


[00:39:55] Not to say that automatically when you get married to somebody that you're going to become a stronger warrior for Christ. But what you guys have is modeled in the Bible. That's what it's supposed to be. It's supposed to be the two of you building one another up. And it's supposed to be a model of, or a type of, Christ's relationship with the church, the marriage of the spotless bride before Christ. 


[00:40:19] That's what it's supposed to be. And so that's, you know, It's a mechanism through which you can come to know the Lord better. And what I'm finding is true for myself. I'm not married and marriage rates for people my age and younger is very low. It's abysmal right now. It's the lowest it's ever been. And I don't think that's good. 


[00:40:37] I don't think that we're made better by just being single and thinking about ourselves all the time. and not having responsibilities outside of ourselves. One of the benefits of marriage is suddenly you're not on your own anymore. And once you have children, you have a shared goal. And you have to constantly externalize the things that you believe. 


[00:40:56] You constantly have to test the things that you believe. For me as a single man, what am I doing? What do I have to do? I have to actively go out and seek responsibility. I don't have it. So I do think that's an obstacle for a lot of people in the church today. And a lot of women, too. Because if men aren't married, then women aren't either. 


[00:41:18] Gina: Yeah, that's a good point. So is there a point at which you give up? Or not just on an individual, but on people? How many times do you get rejected before you just say, okay, fine, be that way? 


[00:41:33] Ben: I think that does depend on the person. A lot of this, like there is no universal, okay, you forgive a person seven times and then that's it. 


[00:41:43] Gina: No, seventy times seven. 


[00:41:45] Ben: Seventy groups of seven. The Bible doesn't explicitly tell us how many times we should be rejected by somebody when talking to them about the gospel. A lot of that does ultimately come down to, what is the Lord telling you? That's the unfortunate thing, and the great thing about scripture, is that it is very specific in certain things. 


[00:42:06] And in other things, it just tells you there will be a time, but it doesn't tell you anything more. For Paul's part, he does mention people who had been handed over to Satan, so that they could be saved. You don't know exactly what line you need to cross. In order to get to that point, but the line exists, and I do think it's different for each person. 


[00:42:23] It takes wisdom, it takes discretion, it takes the power of the Holy Spirit. And if we had simple, easy, numerical answers for all of these things, we wouldn't need the Spirit. We would just have the numbers. You would just have the formula to fall back on. We have certainties in the areas we need certainties. 


[00:42:41] And for the areas where we don't have certainties, but we know an answer exists, we have the Spirit of God. And we have our brothers and sisters, and we have our understanding and wisdom that we can build through experience. 


[00:42:53] Gina: If you put it back into terms of gardening and preparing soil, like when we were in Israel, one of the things that They pointed out to us was that some of the fields were like, taking a break, because in order to be kosher and adhere to the Jewish law, they had to, every so many years, not grow anything. 


[00:43:15] And there are going to be just seasons throughout the year where you don't grow anything. We live in Florida. You can't grow anything in the summer here because it rains constantly and it's way too hot. If you're expecting yourself to be fruitful year round, that's not very realistic. You grow, I have a rose bush out back, it grows like three times a year at blooms. 


[00:43:36] And that's it. And the rest of the time, it's just a thorn bush and it's not the most pleasant thing to look at, but If you're living your life expecting to constantly be in bloom, you're not being realistic. And I think that applies to speaking and debating and arguing with other people, because sometimes you're not ready, or you're not there. 


[00:43:59] And it's wisdom to remain quiet sometimes. Cody understands. 


[00:44:05] Cody: I do. 


[00:44:06] Gina: Sorry. Do you have anything else? 


[00:44:10] Cody: I don't know. One of the ones, the verses I didn't get to read that I like a lot is, if you claim to be religious, but don't control your tongue, you are only fooling yourself and your religion is worthless. 


[00:44:24] That's James 1, 26. 


[00:44:27] Gina: Your faith means nothing if you're not wise enough to stay quiet. 


[00:44:32] Cody: You gotta know when to hold them. 


[00:44:36] Ben: And honestly, that's a tough lesson for me personally. More often than not, I would prefer to say something than not say something. And over the past few years especially, and doing the podcast too, it's been important to learn when it's time to shut up and let other people talk, and when it's time to actually learn something from someone else. 


[00:44:56] Thanks so much. And it's still not a lesson I've fully taken to heart yet, sadly, but I'm working on it. 


[00:45:01] Gina: We have passion like, we get passionate, right? And it's, uh, I feel so strongly, and I'm so frustrated, and Like, it's easy to generalize or speak unwisely in that passion and you feel so strong about it and then you end up being foolish because you've grouped in people that you love and care about that obviously don't fit that. 


[00:45:22] And we're not basing all of our opinions on churches on one church. This is through seminary and networking and past experiences. This is not. Us constantly bashing our own church. We wouldn't go there if we felt that way about this church. It's just a conglomerate of frustration over the years. Pete 


[00:45:45] Ben: Agreed. 


[00:45:46] Heather 


[00:45:48] Gina: Thank you so much for taking the time to listen to our podcast today. If you liked what you heard, please feel free to subscribe and share and leave a positive review. And if you would like to connect with us on social media, you can do so on Instagram and Facebook at the logic of God. You can also send us an email at main dot the logic of God at gmail.