What Are Angels?

[00:00:00] Cody: Hi, thank you for tuning in to the Logic of God podcast. I'm Cody. 


[00:00:16] Gina: I'm Gina. 


[00:00:17] Cody: And I'm Ben. If you're returning, thank you for coming back and if you are a new guest, welcome. 


[00:00:31] So today's episode, we're going to get spicy. Oh dear. 


[00:00:37] Gina: It is spicy, isn't it? 


[00:00:39] Cody: It's spicy for all the wrong reasons. 


[00:00:41] Gina: I know. 


[00:00:42] Ben: Yeah, when talking about angels and demons and their history as it pertains to us, both the church and the earth. There tends to be two different camps of people in this conversation that are the most vocal. 


[00:00:56] There's one, the people, and I will admit I was in this camp for a very long time, who look at the subject and just say, it's stupid to talk about it. Why are you talking about it? It's dumb. The Bible doesn't tell us much about this subject. So. What we do know is that there are angels in heaven, and then there were demons, and are demons, and they're evil. 


[00:01:17] So, do we really need to know anything more than that? I would say no. And there are too many whack jobs who are going into this and making it weird, so just don't bother with it. And then there's the whack job position of no, you don't understand man, there's a secret history of the entire world, and there's gods of the ancient past man, and they were all demons, and they were, like, they ruled the world man, and they conquer everything, and there's Satan's great secrets, and there's Gnostic wisdom and stuff man, you don't even know, and, I understand why there's a lot of hesitancy for people to not touch this subject, because the reality is there really isn't much in the Bible about angels and demons. 


[00:01:58] Gina: Au contraire. 


[00:02:02] Ben: Not much in comparison to actual written history on, say, Israel or Jesus. There are individual verses in the Bible that talk about them, but the truth is we don't know very much about them. However Despite that fact, there is enough there that gives us an image of both angels and demons and their purpose and how they relate to the world and, every bit as important, to us. 


[00:02:28] And so, we've all talked about this subject outside of the podcast quite a bit. And I think Cody was actually the first person to really start softening me on this subject. Because you started reading some of the extra biblical sources, you started reading Enoch and Jubilees, and not only did that soften me on reading some of the other sources outside the Bible, but the idea that while they're not scriptural, they have information in there that That could be true. 


[00:02:52] And at the very least could help fill in some of the questions that the Bible presents and helps build on what's there. But still admittedly is not scripture, so don't take it that way. But there are true things outside of the Bible that we learn just, you know, we believe that the earth goes around on its axis and goes around the sun. 


[00:03:09] That's not specifically in the Bible, but it's true. And there are things that are outside the Bible that are tradition that are referenced in the New Testament. I think the book of Enoch is specifically referenced by Jude. Yes. We trust in scripture to give us dogma and doctrine, and we trust in the Bible only when it pertains to spiritual things. 


[00:03:29] So tonight, addressing this subject, we're going to do our absolute best to let you know when we don't know something or when, at the very least to us, to our knowledge, something is not specifically in the Bible. But we're going to try to start from the very beginning, what's in the Bible about these two groups that have caused so much controversy in the church over the many generations that we've been here. 


[00:03:51] Angels and demons. What do we actually know about them based on the Bible? What should we learn about them? What should we just reject completely as modern fantasy? So coming from that, what are your guys opinions? What are your thoughts going into this subject? 


[00:04:07] Gina: We cannot base our faith on emotional experience and perception. 


[00:04:12] We have to rely on the Word of God to set boundaries, and that's what's going to prevent us to cross into the territory of idolatry or even like unholy curiosity when learning about these things. A really powerful example of something like this would be Eve not trusting God in the garden and consuming things that she was told not to consume. 


[00:04:33] Ben: So you think that one of the big dangers in this is that people will develop a fascination with something other than God and it could lead them into a dark place. 


[00:04:42] Gina: Yeah. Everybody is looking for a physical representation of God on earth. Every, and that's a generalization, but it's common. And then another common one is like power and control over your existence. 


[00:04:56] And God is really in control, but if you can feel in control, if Satan and demons can trick you into thinking that you have some element of control or closure, then they will. And that's something that's very appealing to people, and it's a big trap in studying these things. 


[00:05:12] Cody: I definitely agree with that, and your opening statement goes right along with the C. 


[00:05:18] S. Lewis quote from Screwtape Letters I put there. There are two equal and opposite errors into which our race can fall about the devils, that is, demons, spirits. One is to disbelieve in their existence, and the other is to believe and to feel an excessive and unhealthy interest in them. If we take the Bible at face value and what it tells us not to do, These things are real and it's power that we shouldn't play with or look into. 


[00:05:46] And there is this just glittery speckle in the eye of people that getting this knowledge or higher knowledge that would be appealing to most everybody if they had this access to not necessarily know the future, but have access to a lot more foundation of knowledge and how things work. 


[00:06:08] Gina: Do you have any thoughts? 


[00:06:09] Cody: I 


[00:06:10] Ben: think there are a lot of people who have this feeling about God where it's, they want to have something like God, but not God, because God is too scary. God is this all powerful, all knowing, thing that exists, and he's infinite, he's massive, he's way too much for us to handle. When God spoke directly to the Israelites, for as far as I'm aware, the only time he does it, to all of Israel, they beg Moses to be the one to intermediate, because it's just too much for them. 


[00:06:40] They're like, don't do that ever again, please. And it seems like That's a common affliction throughout humanity. Generally, it's great that we have a power that loves us and watches over us, but he's really scary. He's too much. He's the full truth. He is all things. 


[00:06:58] Gina: He's beyond what our human mind can understand. 


[00:07:01] Ben: Exactly. And angels and demons. seem like an intermediate step between us and Him. That's not what they are, and we'll get to that in a bit. They're just, they're things like us, but have a different purpose. And it's not actually clear that they are any more special than we are. If anything, it seems like the Bible indicates we are more special than they. 


[00:07:21] But we'll, again, we'll get to that. But, they seem to have more power than we do. It seems like they know more about what's going on and know more of the truth than we do. In many ways, we see great spiritual leaders being that kind of middleman, that almost intermediary that Christ should be for us. They will look to angels and demons and think, okay, great. 


[00:07:42] That's an intermediary beyond even that beyond great spiritual leaders. It's a safe thing because it's a finite creature, but it's something that's more powerful, more wise, more capable than me. It's like me. I can understand it. It's not so infinitely beyond me that it seems inaccessible, but it's more than me. 


[00:08:02] And so I can talk to it and get something out of it. And I can picture having a relationship with that thing. And admittedly, it is tough to picture having a relationship with God when He is infinite, when He is in all times and all places. 


[00:08:14] Gina: It is interesting to think about, in scripture, there are examples of angels fighting to protect people, but we're told post Jesus that we have the Holy Spirit who's interceding for us and Jesus interceding for us, but we can't see them. 


[00:08:33] At least in the Bible, you have these stories of these angels that did miraculous, great things for people. They fed people, they guarded people, they gave messages to people, they encouraged people, they destroyed people, and so at least it's tangible. It's something you can imagine and see with your human mind. 


[00:08:53] This idea of the Holy Spirit, this pink cloud that falls on you, it's like, what are you talking about? That's not, that's a feeling, that's not a tangible, literal thing. 


[00:09:04] Ben: And there's more responsibility on you when you approach God directly. It's that his eyes are on you, and it's almost like there's performance anxiety. 


[00:09:13] It's, I know I'm not perfect, but this perfect thing is looking directly at me. Or when you're approaching God through something else, or through someone else, it's almost like some of that burden is being shifted off of you, and onto the thing that you're going through. Whether that's a spiritual leader, which is why I think spiritual leaders are so revered among so many people, and even angels and demons. 


[00:09:33] More specifically, angels 


[00:09:34] Cody: in this instance. And that's one of the reasons just Side note that I think word study for the lay person is dangerous because angel is messenger. Oh, he's just there to relay my messages to God. Because I've heard that before. 


[00:09:49] Ben: Yeah, and it's definitely not what they are. But that actually does bring us to a very important first question. 


[00:09:55] What is an angel? And admittedly, this is not a subject I know an enormous amount about. It's something that fairly recently I've been thinking more about and reflecting more on what's in the Bible, but I haven't read a lot of extra biblical sources that could be right on this. And even then, I haven't focused much of my study on angels, and I know you guys have looked into it a lot more, at the very least, in the past week than I have. 


[00:10:18] So, What do you guys think? What exactly is an angel? 


[00:10:22] Gina: Just to delineate before we even answer that question. Cody has read Much more thoroughly in extra biblical texts than ben and I I have not read any extra biblical texts at all Pertaining to these subjects because i'm trying to keep blinders on and we'll get into that And a little bit of why I feel that way about this type of study, but all of the study that I've put into this outline is specifically from the Bible and from commentaries from very famous, reliable theologians. 


[00:10:56] Ben: And that's at the very least where our foundation for this discussion should be. And no matter what, if you're going to base something on this discussion as true, if you're going to discern it as true, it needs to be something from the Bible, not anywhere else. Other things can be true. And they can be grounded in ancient Jewish tradition and church tradition. 


[00:11:15] But if it's not in the Bible, don't take it as read. It's very important we stress that going forward. If it's not in the Bible, don't assume it's true. As far as it pertains to this subject. 


[00:11:25] Gina: And we will discuss some of the like less biblically founded ideals, but ultimately we will point back to scripture because that's the only thing we can rely on for facts. 


[00:11:37] Ben: Absolutely. 


[00:11:38] Gina: Okay, now that we've said that, angels, the word in Hebrew means messenger, and I don't know how to say this word, but if you want to try it, it's like Malachim. 


[00:11:48] Ben: Malachim. Malachim. Yeah, you gotta do that. It's probably Malachim. 


[00:11:53] Gina: Yeah. 


[00:11:54] Ben: I don't know. Like Elohim? I don't wanna. Malachim? 


[00:11:57] Cody: I don't wanna butcher the Hebrew language, even if it is translated. 


[00:12:02] We're gonna have a bunch of 


[00:12:02] Ben: very angry rabbis sending us strongly worded letters. 


[00:12:06] Cody: So I would love to hear from a rabbi, I'm trying to learn biblical Hebrew. So that would be fantastic. If there is any rabbis listening, great plug Cody. 


[00:12:18] Gina: So, so angel is a title, not a race. 


[00:12:21] Ben: It seems like there is some kind of heavenly race that would be considered angel quote unquote because at some point in the New Testament it does feel like it talks about angels as more of a group of things that exist in heaven like there's the section in Revelation that talks about how a third of the stars of heaven were Wiped out and sent to earth. 


[00:12:43] You could call those, like, heavenly spirits or something like that. We'll get into more of that in a bit. But is there some kind of heavenly race that we could call angel, quote unquote? That would be the common modern understanding of it. I 


[00:12:56] Gina: mean, the only thing that I could think of is just like the heavenly host, which is like a spiritual heavenly being, angelic being. 


[00:13:05] And there's different categories of angels, different titles of angels, but angel is just the overarching name of, of all of the heavenly host. 


[00:13:18] Ben: But the very least, that's what we use the term angel to refer to today. That's not necessarily the way that they did it back in the day. There's some reference that I could find in the Old Testament to the quote unquote sons of God. 


[00:13:33] And there's some debate as to what that is. Again, already we have to take a pause here and say that it's not certain what that is. The Bible means by sons of God, they're mentioned in both Deuteronomy 32, eight and Genesis six, four, and I'm sure they're mentioned other places, but they're not mentioned often. 


[00:13:51] Gina: The interesting thing about sons of God that Cody and I talked about earlier today is just like some interpretations have said that this must be the Israelites, but a lot of the verses that talk about the sons of God. Uh, from before that line even existed. 


[00:14:10] Cody: I mean, there's some arguments for that. Like they'll say Moses was writing it and he knew what was going on. 


[00:14:16] And he wrote all of Genesis so he would have known Jacob's lineage and could have written it down that way. But that would also, I think, open up the scripture to, infallibility questions. 


[00:14:31] Ben: Yeah, and oddly enough, this is something, Cody, that you and I had talked about, and you had mentioned it kind of offhand. 


[00:14:38] And it's weird, you really don't know what people are going to take away from any given conversation that you have, but you had mentioned this verse specifically. And I thought about it for a while, because it was not something that I had been taught. But it is something that's in more modern translations of the Bible. 


[00:14:54] This is Deuteronomy 32, chapter eight, when the most high gave to the nations their inheritance. When he divided mankind, he fixed the borders of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God. But the Lord's portion is his people. Jacob, his allotted inheritance. Who exactly are the sons of God mentioned here? 


[00:15:16] Usually it's translated to Sons of Israel. That's. According to the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Septuagint, it says Sons of Israel. But that's not what the original text seems to say. And there's a lot of argument, it seems. There's a big rabbit hole that you can go down here, specifically. The reason that there is so much argument here is because the implications of either interpretation here are pretty thunderous. 


[00:15:42] They're pretty big. If you interpret it as the Sons of God, like I said before, there are a couple places where it talks about the Sons of God. There's the chapter verse in Genesis that talks about how the Sons of God took wives amongst humans, essentially, human women. They found them to be attractive and then those were the Nephilim. 


[00:16:01] They were the heroes of old, of ancient times, of great renown. And it seems to me, Again, full stop, need to reinforce the fact that there is debate on this. 


[00:16:11] Gina: Yeah, we're playing devil's advocate a little bit. A 


[00:16:13] Ben: little bit. I'm not entirely sure how to take this because I'm not a biblical textual critic, but from what I've seen, there is enough here to say that from this interpretation, it's saying that the world, all of the nations of the world were split up with an angel to look over it. 


[00:16:33] And God kept for himself. The nation of Israel, as his to watch over. The implications for that are pretty staggering, and I don't know that we need to go into all the reasons why just yet, but It does paint a different picture of the events that transpired in world history. For instance, when you get to the time of Moses, and you find that there are priests who are capable of turning water into blood and casting down sticks and turning them into snakes, how exactly are they able to do that? 


[00:17:05] Are they just magicians who are doing sleight of hand? It's not really explored in that light because there are a lot of things that they're able to do. And eventually they're no longer able to do the miracles that they try to do. And they can do quite a few of them. I can't remember all of the things that they're able to do, but they are able to turn stabs into snakes. 


[00:17:24] They're able to turn water into blood. They're able to create gnats, I believe. And I think frogs? I don't, again, I don't remember everything. But they were able to do a lot of different miraculous things. And it, the Bible makes a point of stating, at some point they try to do it again. To match the signs that God is performing. 


[00:17:42] And they can't. And it's interesting, the number of plagues that are put on Egypt is ten. Usually, God's number on anything that he does is symbolic. And it's been theorized that the reason that God goes with the number 10 and the plagues, the type of plagues that he chooses is both judgment on Egypt, but also judgment on the gods of Egypt, that each individual plague corresponds to a god of Egypt or at the very least their domain, the thing that supposedly they have control over. 


[00:18:15] So if you look at this specific chapter verse in Deuteronomy. And it is saying that angels were assigned according to the nations of the earth. And each nation of the earth has an angel essentially ruling over it. And God chooses a nation of his own to call his. A very tiny nation out in the middle of nowhere, just for him. 


[00:18:35] But he lets the rest of the world be ruled by his creation, both angels and humans. Then we start to see a very different parallel history kind of form, where angels are going bad. And we, again, we see this in the book of Revelation, where a third of heaven is wiped out. It's revolting against God's rule and is struck to the earth. 


[00:18:57] For the longest time, I was told that was actually something that happened in the past. That it happened at the very beginning. And the devil rebels, and a third of heaven rebels with him. That's not actually anywhere in Genesis. And that's not anywhere in Revelation. Revelation is talking about events in the future. 


[00:19:12] Or at the very least, events that are happening in the present. And the context of that is that's, that happens in response to the birth of Christ. Why would a third of heaven revolt at the birth of Christ? Why would they be angry about that? There's also a chapter in the New Testament that talks about how the devil shows Jesus all of the nations of the earth, and he says all dominion and authority over these has been given to me. 


[00:19:38] Did God give that to him? That doesn't make a lot of sense, and honestly, that did bother me for a long time. It's like, what, is the devil just giving God back what's already his? That's stupid. But if it turns out that the devil had actually been winning over The rulers of all of these nations, the angels that are actually becoming gods, being worshipped as gods, and being corrupted, and over time surrendering their authority to him. 


[00:20:03] Then suddenly that offer becomes true temptation. It's the devil saying, Hey Jesus, this world is mine. I have conquered it. And all of your servants that at one time or another served you have become evil gods that now I control. I can give you the world. You don't have to sacrifice yourself for them. I will surrender this authority to you. 


[00:20:24] You just have to bow before me and you won't have to take the sins of the world on yourself. Suddenly that becomes true temptation. It's not him just blustering and saying, I'll give you back what you gave me. That's why I say that the interpretation of this verse in particular has some pretty big ramifications. 


[00:20:42] I don't know about you guys, I've been talking for a while, but that's At the very least, it's an interesting take. I'm not sure where I stand on it. I'm not married to it. And I think there is some danger in putting too much investment in one interpretation or the other. But honestly, I find it intriguing at the very least. 


[00:21:00] I don't know about you guys. 


[00:21:01] Cody: It makes some of the ancillary Bible questions make sense, not soteriological questions, but how we got to where we are makes a lot of sense in that, like, train of thought. And I agree, I'm not married to it, but it does answer some questions, or at least opens the door for stuff that is, you know, scripturally not there right in your face. 


[00:21:28] But yeah, there's a whole movement. If you look into the, it's classified now as the divine council worldview. It's very popularized by Michael Heiser and his very famous book right now called The Unseen Realm. But if you look back in church history, it's there. The Eastern Orthodox Church still teaches this viewpoint. 


[00:21:50] And up until the Protestant Reformation, um, was pretty much adapted by the early church fathers, as this was the interpretation and reading and understanding of why we got to where we are. And a lot of people, even in like Baptist communities and where I grew up in, a lot of this was You know, secondhand, like oral tradition almost on what we understood or knew about angels and the fall and all of that, all that jazz was an oral tradition and a lot of people's lives and a lot of angelology, but it's becoming more mainstream, but still is not a very commonly known interpretation or why it even, the implications, like you said, there's. 


[00:22:42] It, it changes your view on a few things. 


[00:22:44] Gina: When you look at some of the questions that people ask for, like from a non believer standpoint, like how could God create good and evil kind of thing, wiping out civilizations and wanting answers to questions from the Bible of stories of old in the Old Testament and like why God did what he did. 


[00:23:07] Viewpoint helps it make sense and helps it still feel acceptable because God created these angels for a specific purpose and they didn't adhere to that purpose and that's caused a lot of chaos and a lot of problems in Civilizations historically but also today and if you look at it As angels versus demons and good versus evil and black and white. 


[00:23:35] I think you're missing some of the richness of the history of it, which is, it's just fascinating, but it's also beautiful because it all points to. The need for a Savior is Jesus. 


[00:23:49] Cody: I would like to note that the like alternative interpretation doesn't really answer any of that specific texts at all. 


[00:23:58] There's a lot of issues at least in the English translation with it being the sons of Israel because Jacob's name is used later on down in that paragraph. The popular interpretation then is not angels came down. It is that, it's the Sethian line of the Demek genealogy that is finding the Cain side attractive. 


[00:24:22] And why does that make giants? No, it doesn't satisfy a lot of the questions that you have. And you have to do a lot of textural gymnastics to explain your way of how that would be the Sethian line, or why is he called Israel in one point and Jacob in the other. And Yeah, 


[00:24:42] Ben: I think there's a big temptation for a lot of people to try to make the world as mundane and material as possible Because in truth the world that we observe today Functions much that way we don't see at the very least in modern America We don't see an immense spiritual presence here at the very least outside of Christ in the Holy Spirit and debatably even then not much of that but in individual communities throughout the u. 


[00:25:09] s You do find a lot of people who are very in tune with the Holy Spirit who love the Lord very much and Miraculous things happen all the time and it's only really coming from God from the Almighty directly from the Holy Spirit not from angels not Through an intermediate step or something like that and on the other side of it. 


[00:25:31] We do see evil. There is absolutely tons of horrendous evil that happens today and There are times where evil is done and you feel like there is something very wrong There's a sort of vile corruption there, but at the same time. It's not like It's not like there are miraculous things happening at the same time that are counterbalancing the sight of God. 


[00:25:54] It feels like God really has conquered the world. He took the world back, if this is true, if this interpretation is true. When Christ died and was resurrected, aside from atoning for all of our sins, for the sins of the world, and taking that on himself, He conquered sin and death. He conquered the world back. 


[00:26:13] He took it back. From his corrupted creation and he put it under his own dominion rule and authority 


[00:26:20] Cody: and to take it down more Logical standpoint. Yeah, everybody nowadays has a very poor view of ancient civilization and just thinking everybody back then is stupid and If the Egyptians can build the pyramids and it be more mathematically precise than most of our buildings in America today, I don't think they're that stupid. 


[00:26:46] Gina: We also don't have an explanation for how they were even built. 


[00:26:50] Cody: There's theories, but yeah, it's It has taken us a long time to even have theories of how it was built. And 


[00:26:57] Ben: a lot of the theories that people will present, like there are probably people listening to this and say, Oh yeah, they just used logs and they put the stones on the logs and pulled them with enough people and enough logs you can pull anything along. 


[00:27:07] They tried to do something similar to that to reconstruct Stonehenge. Just as a modern exercise. They couldn't do it. There's a lot we don't know. There's a lot we don't understand. Stonehenge is literally just a handful of rocks stuck up on their sides, and then some rocks put on top of the other rocks. 


[00:27:23] We have no clue how they did it. It doesn't make sense to us. The pyramids, in even greater wonder, we have no clue how they did it. I do think that there are a lot of people who Get a bit too obsessed with this, like the C. S. Lewis quote that you, you made earlier, Cody. Oh, yeah. They get so obsessed with this, that they say, look, every single thing, that's demons, or that's angels, or that's No, that's angels, or demons built the pyramids. 


[00:27:45] That's a common Yeah, who knows? I don't think so. It could just be that they were real they're a lot smarter than we give them credit for. 


[00:27:52] Gina: If we want to be historically accurate, we know that Egyptians had slaves, like we know that. So why would we doubt that? 


[00:28:00] Cody: But we think they're stupid, but obviously they're, they knew more complex mathematics than we can comprehend that they knew today. 


[00:28:10] Like we don't know how they did it. Their math was very precise, even though they were living in, you know, pre technology era, but somehow still did this super precise. They did it, and with what they had at that time, with the carving granite with copper tools, too. They still don't know how they did it, because they didn't have a lot of other tooling back then. 


[00:28:33] To think that these people are worshipping things that are not doing anything for them, I think is silly as well. 


[00:28:40] Ben: And the Bible makes it clear at the very least that's not. What happened? Correct. Yeah, from what we're told in the book of Exodus, it's very clear that what they worshipped responded to them. 


[00:28:51] And when you look at even what was written about Nebuchadnezzar and his empire, like he had his wise men, his astrologers, his magicians, and supposedly they could do things, like they had power. That's why he appealed to them. But they had limits despite the power that they have. Now, again, we're not told specifically what they could do. 


[00:29:11] It's just implied that they had a lot of authority. They were spoken to directly by the king. So again, there's a lot that we don't know here and we need to make that clear. As many times as we need to say it, not even about, 


[00:29:24] Gina: it's not a matter of study. It's a matter of the fact that the information just doesn't exist. 


[00:29:28] Cody: Yes. My point in that was to connect it, like, where the logic of God. This is a logical path that we're taking of believing in the supernatural. It is not far fetched. Like, most of the people who, Don't believe in the supernatural or more of the analytical type And very reserved like I was in that boat for a very long time me too. 


[00:29:54] Um, 


[00:29:55] Gina: and then you met me 


[00:29:58] Cody: But this is to step into it is logical if you just look at history and data and the bible 


[00:30:06] Ben: I think there are a lot of people who hear the word logic and they think that it corresponds to materialism If something is logical, it must be material. That's not what logic is. Logic is consistent application of first principles. 


[00:30:22] Your first principles, no matter what, are assumptions. At some point, you hit ideological bedrock. There's something that you can't prove. You have to assume it's true. When we're discussing things like angels and demons and heaven and earth, we are assuming that spirit exists. Spirit of some kind. Thing that, something that is supernatural beyond the flesh. 


[00:30:45] If we assume that God exists, and that is one of our core assumptions here, God is not physical. God is not material. He is beyond the flesh. He's beyond the physical. He's beyond the material. We already agreed to that. And we also assume that the Bible exists, the Bible is scripture, and God speaks to us through scripture. 


[00:31:02] We can trust it. That is one of our assumptions. If the Bible talks to us about the existence of supernatural beings aside from God, it stands to reason that somehow we have to incorporate it into our understanding. I know, there are a lot of Christians who listen to this stuff and they take the quasi sadducee approach. 


[00:31:23] Where it's like God exists and sure there are like angels and demons or whatever, but we don't care about them. They don't matter. They don't do anything. Why do you think God made them? Why do you think God made angels in the first place? What do you think God made Gabriel? Why does the book of Daniel talk about how Gabriel was delayed because there was fighting? 


[00:31:43] What was he fighting? Why did the Archangel Michael need to be called out? 


[00:31:47] Cody: Yep. Satan and Michael were fighting over the body of Moses and Jude. Yeah. There's a lot of references to 


[00:31:56] Ben: And, granted, again, we're not told much about it, but we're told enough to be certain that they exist. If we trust, if we assume the Bible is correct, then we have to look at this and try to make sense of it. 


[00:32:08] Gina: The Bible says to be on your guard and to test everything. There's a lot of instruction in scripture for handling the demonic and also the angelic. And if we don't take that information in, then how could we possibly guard ourselves? This isn't the obsessive consumption of information, this is just the study of Bible that allows us to be prepared to have the armor of God, to have the knowledge that we need that's biblical in order to fight off or welcome, depending on what's happening. 


[00:32:42] Ben: So we've touched on this, but what exactly were their roles? Like if not to watch over the earth, if they weren't assigned to essentially be protectors, to be guardians, and their role over time was corrupted. What exactly did they do? Does the Bible tell us? 


[00:32:57] Gina: Yeah. So I, I wrote this, so I'll just go from that. 


[00:33:00] Yeah, 


[00:33:00] Ben: please. 


[00:33:01] Gina: The purpose of angels according to scripture, I've pulled a lot of scripture to describe the jobs that angels have had according to the Bible. I know that there are extra biblical texts that talk a lot more about this. I'm only using scripture. We have angels that were in charge of enacting God's will. 


[00:33:18] That can be found in First King 22, 19 through 23. There's messenger angels. We know that Gabriel was a messenger angel. He gave messages about John the Baptist's birth as well as Jesus birth. There was a messenger angel that spoke to Daniel and answered his prayers. And there were other unnamed angels that delivered messages in scripture. 


[00:33:41] There are warrior and protective angels, like Psalm 9111, Matthew 2653, Matthew 1810. And Matthew 1810 is important just to note that one talks about angels being protectors of children. Then there are angels that were destroyers. I noted that the angel of death is not in the Bible. That's not a biblical angel, but there were biblical angels that came to destroy those that were under God's judgment. 


[00:34:10] And there's examples of that in the Passover, as well as Sodom and Gomorrah, as well as in second Samuel 24. Those are all stories that talk about angels being sent for the purpose of destruction. 


[00:34:26] Ben: Yeah, the one in 2 Samuel was very interesting because I believe that's the story where David had a military census taken of his land, presumably because he was planning on invading someone else's land. 


[00:34:38] And after that was done, he realized it was such a terrible decision. And then one of the prophets came to him and said, okay, so pick your poison. Either your enemies can invade and you'll be on the run from them. There'll be a plague sent by the Lord to strike you down and you'll be at his mercy or It was one other one, I think famine for three years, something like that. 


[00:34:59] There were three different choices that he had as far as punishment. And David said, send the plague from the Lord. And then an angel, a literal angel, like a massive 


[00:35:09] Gina: Raised his hand. 


[00:35:10] Ben: Yeah. Enormous Angel appears, raises his hand, and then it's just a plague everywhere and destruction everywhere, and David literally sees it. 


[00:35:18] It's not symbolic. It's literally there, and he sees it, and he breaks down and he's weeping. He's like, what have I done? Yeah, it's, they have purposes, absolutely. They, they do a lot of different things throughout the Bible. It is weird to think, why is it that God would work through angels rather than doing things directly? 


[00:35:37] Cody: Why would God create? He wants to share in his role. If you look at the Eden story, it is, we're placed on the earth and then we're told to have dominion over it. And this isn't like dominion, you subdue it and make it your slave. This is, you're going to make it better. They're cultivating 


[00:35:57] Gina: it. 


[00:35:57] Cody: Yeah. There's a good. 


[00:35:59] It's called The Drama of Scripture by Bartholomew and Goheen, and I can't, I didn't pull the quote directly for this, but, um. It's got a good quote about the purpose of humans and in the beginning, and he goes in talking about a, like a famous painter. If you're like apprenticing under Michelangelo or something, and he's commissioned to do this painting and all of a sudden he can't do it anymore, or he wants to teach you. 


[00:36:30] He, he gives you the paintbrush and now you're supposed to do it. Are you supposed to do it to the same glory that Michelangelo did? That's what he's getting paid to do. He's getting commissioned to do this. So you're supposed to take what Michelangelo did and do it. do just as good or better. And I think that's the same example that we have in Eden. 


[00:36:53] We were supposed to have dominion and subdue it and make Eden spread and do what God has already perfected and replicate that in the rest of the world. 


[00:37:04] Ben: It doesn't make much sense for God to create both angels and humans and then not have us do anything. It's very clear that God chooses to work through people and it would also make sense that since God made angels he would use them. 


[00:37:19] Yeah, it may seem odd at times that God chooses to work through angels, but it's no more odd than him working through humans. Honestly. Yep 


[00:37:26] Cody: I would agree 


[00:37:27] Gina: There is one more category And it is the angels just for worship of God. So those are also angels that exist There's choirs of angels. 


[00:37:37] Cody: Isn't that arrogant of God? 


[00:37:40] Gina: There's also armies of angels. 


[00:37:42] Ben: Yeah, there's the story of Elisha where he sees the entire army of heaven. Another good question, if they aren't fighting anybody, why is there an army? 


[00:37:52] Cody: If God could just snap his fingers and it happened, why is there an army? 


[00:37:58] Ben: Same reason he chooses to work through people and angels generally. 


[00:38:01] Absolutely. Yeah, it's made abundantly clear time after time that there's a whole world of things going on that we don't see and we don't, you know, And Cody actually mentioned this in a conversation before the podcast recording started. But you said that there's a lot more to Christ's sacrifice than we'll ever really understand. 


[00:38:21] And I think that's very true. Even what the Bible tells us, we don't fully wrap our heads around. But there's clearly further implications for Christ's sacrifice that when he retrieved the keys of death in Hades, we have no idea what that looked like. We have no idea what the reaction. Yes, we 


[00:38:36] Gina: do. Just watch Supernatural. 


[00:38:39] Ben: Oh, yeah, obviously. I get all of my theology from Supernatural. 


[00:38:43] Cody: Oh, those Winchester 


[00:38:44] Ben: boys. Oh, those boys are up to their old shenanigans again. Sam and Dean. 


[00:38:51] Gina: He's half demon. 


[00:38:52] Ben: Yeah, and the other guy's the son of Cain or something, because the Mark of Cain and First Blade, which is made out of a jawbone. 


[00:38:59] Cody: Boy, 


[00:39:00] Ben: they went off the rails in the later seasons. 


[00:39:02] Cody: Fun fact, I did get most of my high school career, I think, I was driving that same car that they had. 


[00:39:08] Ben: Ah, it's a good, it's a good car. 


[00:39:10] Cody: Yeah, 67. 


[00:39:11] Ben: My brother Jack loved that car. He was dreaming of getting that car. He also loved Supernatural, so that's the only reason I saw any of it. But we really don't know what it looked like in heaven and what it looked like in hell when Christ made a sacrifice. 


[00:39:24] We don't know the reaction of angels and demons when that happened. We don't know the reaction of the devil. We don't know the furthest reaching consequences of what happened. We know how it pertains to us and our salvation, obviously. But I think when we finally come face to face with God, we're going to find out that so much more has happened in the history of the world than we understand. 


[00:39:44] Gina: So what do we know about how angels looked and sounded like? 


[00:39:48] Cody: The one that comes to, a few things that come to mind, most people are usually trembling in fear when angels come down, but also they can look human as in the story of Sodom and Gomorrah and the rescuing of Lot. And there's also a couple other scriptures that go into looking like human. 


[00:40:09] Gina: Like, the one that stands out to me would be Hebrews 13, 2. Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for thereby some have entertained angels unawares. So they could look completely not special at all. 


[00:40:23] Ben: But the question is, do they look that way? 


[00:40:27] Gina: Always. 


[00:40:27] Ben: All the time. Is there a true form, quote unquote, of an angel? 


[00:40:31] Gina: We have a true form. So, maybe they do, but we don't know. 


[00:40:35] Cody: Do you think it's the humanoid with big eagle wings? No. Modern version of angels? The common depiction of angels? 


[00:40:45] Ben: There's the depictions that we get in Revelation, and it's humanoid. Skin like brass, and there are wings, and In some sense, it's not completely far off. 


[00:40:57] It's not pulled out of nowhere. It's not as if that depiction of a beautiful human with wings came out of nowhere. It did come from somewhere. But it's not a like for like representation. It's eyes like fire, a voice like thunder, skin like bronze, and I believe they also have wings on their feet. 


[00:41:14] Gina: It depends. 


[00:41:15] Ben: Yeah. 


[00:41:16] Cody: Yeah, because there's ones that wings are all over. There's 


[00:41:19] Ben: ones 


[00:41:19] Cody: that have six 


[00:41:19] Ben: wings. And it's tough because there's the stuff in Ezekiel about the wheel and the wheel with eyes. Is that an angel? 


[00:41:27] Gina: So when it comes to angels, there are some like sects in Christianity that kind of try to outline a hierarchy of angels. 


[00:41:39] I don't personally believe that is a logical approach to learning about angels. It adds layers that are not in the Bible at all. And so I'm going to start by saying, I don't believe in the hierarchy of angels. There probably is because we have archangels and stuff like that. But I don't believe in the man made hierarchy of angels. 


[00:42:00] So starting there and just titling the different angel names that are in the Bible, not names, but maybe 


[00:42:08] Ben: Offices, let's say. 


[00:42:09] Gina: Yeah. 


[00:42:10] Ben: Categories. 


[00:42:11] Gina: Yeah, yeah, categories. But there's the ophinum, which I'm probably saying wrong. It's probably ophinim, but it means wheels. And it's literally, that's what it means. And it's found in the Bible and it's, they're not specifically called angels, but they're like a godly angelic being. 


[00:42:30] And in Ezekiel, um, 10, 12, it says their entire bodies, including their backs, hands, and wings were full of eyes and all are all around as were their four wheels. And it talks about the throne of God being set on these wheels and then pushed by four angels and the wheels. are inside of wheels at cross angles so that the throne can move in any direction without having to turn. 


[00:42:57] And that is in Ezekiel 10, 9 through 13. And that was my paraphrasing, not me reading the Bible. And then this could also be a poetic or artistic description rather than a literal one, and I just add that because God is not confined to a throne. His reign is all encompassing and all knowing and all powerful, so it could have been like a vision intended for specific contextual purposes and not necessarily the angel in its true form or whatever this angelic creature is. 


[00:43:28] So that's the first one. Any thoughts? 


[00:43:30] Ben: No, I think you got it. . Whenever I've read that part of Ezekiel, there's a lot that happens in Ezekiel. That's odd. I believe Ezekiel is also where there are the bones in the desert. Is that Isaiah or is that Ezekiel? I think that was Ezekiel. The dry bones, 


[00:43:46] Cody: the drop bones come back to life 


[00:43:48] Ben: there. 


[00:43:48] There's a lot of stuff in Ezekiel that's strange and it honestly, I should have done. A study of Ezekiel at some point because it really is a fascinating book. But there's just so much imagery in there and it's always a book that I just skim through because it's impenetrable to me. It's something It's overwhelming. 


[00:44:04] It is. And I've never fully understood what any of the imagery in that is supposed to do. What's the point of telling us this stuff? I know that it has a purpose and that's why I really should go back and look at it and You know, look at some of the textual analysis and see what people have been able to get from that. 


[00:44:22] Because it very clearly was meant to mean something to the people who Ezekiel was speaking to, but it never meant much to me. It was always confusing. Okay, so what's, dude, what are you talking about? There's a wheel, and there's a wheel inside that wheel, and a wheel inside that wheel, and there are 


[00:44:37] Gina: eyes. 


[00:44:37] Is, uh, 


[00:44:38] Ben: these literal eyes? Is it like fleshy human eyeballs? 


[00:44:41] Gina: Cody has some contextual information. 


[00:44:44] Cody: That's one of those. Books, right before I started seminary, I did the Bible in a year program and like got some like books I wanted to highlight and Ezekiel was one of those and I never made it there. I want to do a deeper dive into it. 


[00:44:58] But when I was doing the read through in a year, it was Like, I can't remember. I think it was at that free, awesome free used bookstore that I picked up, uh, like Jewish idioms and I have no idea how much weight they hold, but like the wheels is an idiom for the way that. Stars rotate. And eyes was another word for just shiny. 


[00:45:23] Gina: Or stars, I thought. 


[00:45:25] Cody: Okay, 


[00:45:26] Ben: so again, when you think 


[00:45:28] Gina: of it in those terms, 


[00:45:29] Ben: saying it like that, again, this is something that people have definitely put a lot more thought into than I have. This is literally just me thinking on the spot, but it could be, you know, Essentially saying that the heavens are literally God's throne. 


[00:45:41] Cody: Yeah. 


[00:45:42] Ben: That the wheels are the stars in motion, and then God's throne is above them. That makes sense. And when you 


[00:45:49] Gina: think about it in those terms, it's enormous. Yeah. It doesn't confine God to your little wheelie office chair. 


[00:45:55] Cody: But there is still some issues with that contextually, okay? Why is there four? Are they galaxies at that point? 


[00:46:02] But we know there's more than four galaxies. So there's Some weird things to just taking the, the idiom approach or whatever there is. I mean, 


[00:46:12] Ben: you could be saying it's four dimensions. Yeah, makes sense. But that's reading to, why is it four things that are identical referring to four dimensions? Because each dimension is different. 


[00:46:22] But yeah, again, there's probably somebody who's put a lot more thought into it, but reading it as that. It's definitely interesting, but that makes me more excited to go back and look through it, because obviously there's meaning to the, to this stuff. 


[00:46:37] Cody: Yeah, and the same with the, there's actually a lot in that book about the idioms of Ezekiel, like it goes in, you're going to cover, I think the, Is it the Seraphim or Cherubim next? 


[00:46:47] Cherubim is 


[00:46:48] Gina: next. 


[00:46:49] Cody: Yeah, so, after that. Or is this the one with four heads? 


[00:46:53] Gina: Yeah. 


[00:46:54] Cody: Yeah. We've all got four heads. Yeah, but an eagle was an idiom for something, and the 


[00:47:01] Gina: Lion. 


[00:47:02] Cody: Lion is an idiom for lion, I think, or eagle or lion is courage or something like that, and it gave different meaning to why. Ezekiel might use that. 


[00:47:11] And I'm just regurgitating information that I have not fact checked at all. So it's not something I'm going to take to the bank, but it makes you think about things differently too. 


[00:47:21] Ben: We talked about in our episode on hermeneutics, that you need to read the Bible in the context of when it was written and in the context of the people it was written for. 


[00:47:32] It does help immeasurably to understand the Jewish culture and Jewish tradition, because it's the lens through which they would have used to understand what Ezekiel was saying to them. At any rate, that covers the wheelchair. Even God's wheels are angels. 


[00:47:49] Gina: I love that. It's 


[00:47:50] Ben: so 


[00:47:51] Gina: funny. Okay, so cherubim. 


[00:47:54] Cherubim are mostly seen in Genesis guarding the garden as well as around the Ark of the Covenant. It is said that cherubim have carried the throne of God in Ezekiel 10 and in 2 Samuel 22 11, it says that God mounted the cherubim and flew, soared on the wings of the wind. And they look like an angel with four faces, a cherub, a human, a lion, and an eagle. 


[00:48:23] And there's some other descriptions as well. Some people believe that the Ophinum and the Cherubim are one and the same. I personally think it's two different things because in Ezekiel it talks about the wheels and then also the four faced creatures being two different things. 


[00:48:37] Ben: And the wheels could be symbolic. 


[00:48:39] Gina: Right. And supposedly, the devil was a cherubim before the fall. And that can be found in Ezekiel 28, 12 through 18. 


[00:48:48] Ben: Now wasn't that referring to the king of Tyre though? 


[00:48:51] Gina: I'd have to pull it up, I didn't add it. So 


[00:48:52] Ben: I'm pretty sure That chapter in Ezekiel is talking about the king of Tyre, however, there are a lot of parallels to the devil. 


[00:49:01] My understanding is that there's two different ways that's interpreted. One is that it's, strictly speaking, just talking about the king of Tyre. And it just happens to be that there's some language that parallels the devil. And there's another interpretation where Ezekiel is referring to both the devil and the king of Tyre. 


[00:49:19] Gina: I'm just pulling it up. You're right. He is referring to the king of Tyre. 


[00:49:25] Ben: But traditionally people do use this chapter in Ezekiel to talk about the devil, just because the parallels are definitely there. 


[00:49:35] Gina: Now, one thing that this, so Ezekiel 28, 13 talks about is, Every precious stone was thy covering. 


[00:49:43] Sardius, Topaz, Diamond, Beryl, Onyx, Jasper, Sapphire, Emerald, Carbuncle, and Gold. That adds another layer to the appearance of a cherub, if that is in fact what a cherub looks like. So they have four faces, but they're also covered in precious stones and gold. It's also interesting that these are the same stones that were used in the chest plate for 


[00:50:05] Cody: A lot. 


[00:50:05] Not exactly. Yeah. 


[00:50:07] Gina: It depends on which. That's true. No one really 


[00:50:09] Cody: knows the actual. 


[00:50:12] Ben: So it's important. Going into talking about the devil in reference to this chapter in Ezekiel, let's just read some of it starting from the beginning. Ezekiel chapter 28 verse 1. The word of the Lord came to me, son of man, say to the prince of Tyre. 


[00:50:31] Thus says the Lord, Because your heart is proud, and because you have said, I am a god, I sit in the seat of the gods, in the heart of the seas, yet you are but a man, and no god. Though you make your heart like the heart of a god, you are indeed wiser than Daniel, no secret is hidden from you. By your wisdom and your understanding, you have made wealth for yourself, and have gathered gold and silver into your treasuries. 


[00:50:54] By your great wisdom in your trade, you have increased your wealth, And your heart has become proud in your wealth, therefore, thus says the Lord, because you make your heart like the heart of a God. Therefore, behold, I will bring foreigners upon you, the most ruthless of nations, and they shall draw the swords against the beauty of your wisdom and to follow your splendor. 


[00:51:12] So far, it doesn't sound like he's talking about the devil, and there are a lot of points where it does sound like he could be talking about the devil and he could be still talking about the king of Tyre. That's why it's important. To be careful when reading through this specific chapter and saying that it's talking about the devil 


[00:51:31] Gina: or any 


[00:51:31] Ben: real description about angels generally. 


[00:51:34] Gina: So I pulled that from commentaries. That was just a fun factoid that is debated. It's not, none of this is really, it's so mysterious unless you've taken the time to study every word and make sure that it's accurate and then still not know the 100 percent other than your own personal conviction, you're never going to really know whether or not it's true and really it's irrelevant. 


[00:51:58] Satan is Satan. Yes. Whether he was a cherub or not. 


[00:52:02] Ben: We know that he was an angel. We don't know if he worked as a desk job or as a warrior or what, but we know that he was an angel. 


[00:52:09] Gina: Yeah. Any other thoughts on cherubim? Okay. So there's seraphim and they're only mentioned briefly in the Bible. So we don't have a lot of information about them either. 


[00:52:20] But Cody looked up for me, the word root of Seraphim, and it means fiery flying serpent. 


[00:52:29] Cody: Yeah, one of the other flip sides is I've heard Satan was a Seraphim because the original word being connected to serpent and the serpent in the Garden of Eden, and they all, Seraphim could also fly, but God strips. 


[00:52:46] Satan of his flying ability. So you're going to be on your belly, like the birds of the wilderness or the animals of the wilderness. I can't remember exactly. So I have heard that explanation. And again, this is not something that I as excribed to or put out there, but that is something else that's out there that seems logical, but 


[00:53:06] Ben: it would absolutely be fascinating if that's the case, because one of the weird parts The Fall of Man story in Genesis is a snake shows up and is talking to Eve. 


[00:53:18] One, snakes don't talk. Could snakes talk at the beginning? I don't know, maybe. 


[00:53:22] Cody: I've heard the argument about the donkey and 


[00:53:24] Ben: Balaam. Yeah, but that was an exception. It was made clear that was an exception. But as far as a snake showing up and talking to Eve, and then it says, now the serpent was the wisest of God's creation. 


[00:53:39] Gina: No, I'm laughing because could you imagine being like, naked in the garden eating a pomegranate and then suddenly some disabled angel like, wriggles up to you and is, you can eat that, I promise. 


[00:53:51] Ben: How about a nice apple? I promise nothing bad's gonna happen. Like 


[00:53:57] Gina: you're sitting there with your pet tiger and 


[00:54:00] Ben: And all is right with the world. 


[00:54:03] And then some dude just plummets from the sky. 


[00:54:07] Gina: He's like squirming. 


[00:54:09] Ben: Nah, I I gotcha, but if you take it as Seraphim, as, okay, so the Seraphim was the wisest of God's creation, and a Seraphim shows up, and is, hey, I know a lot about God, it's like, yeah, why did a snake know so much about God? Already we assume that the snake is the devil. 


[00:54:28] So at the very least he's disguised as a snake, but if it is true that Seraphim is what the devil was and then There is an actual parallel an actual design parallel between what Isaiah says and what is put in Genesis Then it isn't a literal snake. It's an angel and it's an angel that is corrupted and This is his act of rebellion against God and so God curses him It's you're just you're gonna be bound to the earth. 


[00:54:54] You can't leave I strip you of your wings, you will crawl in the dust of the earth, and what's more, one of this man's descendants is going to tread on your head and you are going to bite his heel. Suddenly it makes a lot more sense. 


[00:55:07] Gina: There's also, they're described as having six wings, two to cover their face, two to cover their feet, and two to fly with. 


[00:55:15] And some of the commentaries that I was reading have extrapolated that, like, it must be so that. Seraphim cannot see the face of God or let their feet touch the holy ground, which is totally not in the Bible, but that's something that a lot of people believe. I was surprised by how popular that thought was, but it just, you know, it's a weird kind of thing. 


[00:55:39] depiction if you try to imagine it in terms of a man, it's really weird, but we can't really like the angels are described in the bible as being made out of things that are not flesh, metal, and stone. So it's just a very interesting. 


[00:55:56] Ben: It's skin like brass. It's not that necessarily they're made out of it. 


[00:56:01] I think it's more that they were just shiny. They're luminescent. Their eyes are like fire. They can, they're, they're brilliant and otherworldly. 


[00:56:08] Gina: And the seraphims saying praises to God that like their voice created fire. So that was another thing in the Bible that I read, their voices created like burning, 


[00:56:19] Ben: and that would explain why the devil was called Lucifer Light bringer, if that's one of the things that they did. 


[00:56:24] Now, again, that's conjecture, 


[00:56:26] Gina: also the fiery pits of hell. I don't know. 


[00:56:28] Ben: Yeah, no, there's in, in some ways it makes a bit too much sense. Again, we're not strictly speaking told that. It's just, it's an interesting thought. It does make sense, but I'm not married to the idea. Cody literally just brought it up. 


[00:56:43] You have a nasty habit of making me really fascinated with the things you bring up. 


[00:56:48] Cody: Oh, it's just those things that are, okay, I like that. It makes sense and like, it's not, you test it with scripture. It's not like anti biblical, but it is extra biblical. You have to make a lot of connections outside of what text says, but they also don't disagree with anything in the text either that I've read. 


[00:57:10] Yeah. So. 


[00:57:11] Gina: Okay. The next one is archangels. An archangel may be a role rather than a type of angel. And only one of them is named in scripture, and it is Michael. And Cody was telling me that there's extra biblical references that talk about there being more than one. Yeah, I think You said Enoch 


[00:57:34] Cody: and Tobit. 


[00:57:34] Tobit mentions, I think, seven archangels. Enoch mentions, I think, four. But The Ark in Archangel is just like first or prince or chief. Like that's what it translates to. And like, you get that sense with Michael leading the army, so to speak. And in the Bible, you get that reference. Theoretical, plausible, not concrete though, that there is more than one. 


[00:58:03] Ben: Yeah, I could see it going either way. I mean, it does make sense that there would be more than one chief angel, if there are armies of God. And ultimately, God is the supreme leader, so there can be as many people under him as he wants. But at the same time, we seem to only have one archangel named, which is Michael. 


[00:58:20] I'm fine with just saying there's one. 


[00:58:23] Gina: Yep. That's easy. Okay. The last one is the most dramatic, I think, and it's fallen angels. 


[00:58:31] Ben: Yeah. Here we go. 


[00:58:32] Gina: But are they demons? 


[00:58:34] Ben: So what do you think, Gina? Are they demons? Yes. Why? 


[00:58:38] Gina: Because if you read in Revelation 12, seven talks about Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon and his angels fought back like there are other texts in scripture that talk about the devil having like workers and Revelation calls them what they are which is their angels. 


[00:58:59] They're just fallen angels There's still demons, and as we get into the subject of demons, we can break it down more, but Ultimately, the answer to me is, yes. Am I wrong? 


[00:59:12] Cody: I don't know. Like, this is another one I'm open to be wrong on. Yeah, here we go. Here we go. I probably lean to that side, but it does seem that they are a little bit different than angels and in their roles and what we see them capable of. 


[00:59:29] We don't hear any good angels possessing humans. We do see demons possessing humans, and if you look at some of the reasons, one of the things that I work with when thinking about the, the role of angels and demons, or angels, so you have angels, you have humans, you have God, the trinity of God, you can describe, I think Ben has described, Or can be described, I don't think you described it exactly this way, like matter, like Jesus is matter. 


[01:00:01] You have the will, which is God, and then you have the spirit, which is the Holy Spirit. And then you have angels. They have spirit and will, but they're not matter like humans are. You have animals who are more just matter and more will, I would say. not necessarily spirit. Then you would have plants as just matter, and then you have humans. 


[01:00:31] So out of everything that God has created thus far, nothing has been in the true image of God. Then you put humans in there and they encompass all three of these. So there is a spiritual aspect to humans. There's a matter aspect to humans. And then there is also the will that we fight with that seems to be separate than the spirit itself. 


[01:00:53] So, putting that into context with angels and demons, I don't see angels doing the same things that demons do. And again, I'm okay with being wrong, but there's a lot of Jewish tradition and that's where we get a lot of our teachings on demons, whether people admit it or not. And one of the common beliefs of these more ancient Jewish writings and teachings is that the Nephilim are When they die, the, because the angels have this will and spirit and then you have humans, there's not a great mixture there. 


[01:01:32] When they die, it becomes disembodied and that's what demons are. 


[01:01:36] Gina: You're saying that from the possibility, not from the absolute. 


[01:01:40] Cody: Yeah, definitely not absolute on that. That's all extra biblical, not in the Bible, but. I 


[01:01:47] Ben: think it's, I think it's important that we have this discussion because you and I actually talked about this a few months ago. 


[01:01:54] And at first I was very against that interpretation, like ardently against it. And to an extent I still am, but I think there's some merit to the discussion here. There are a lot of Christians who will go out of their way to. interpret out the mention of the Nephilim as angels or fallen angels having children with humans, because one, it sounds pagan. 


[01:02:18] It sounds like demigods. It sounds like the myths of ancient pagan cultures that we laugh at and roll our eyes at like really Zeus going around and getting a bunch of ladies pregnant and tricking people and having kids with bulls. And yeah, it all sounds ridiculous and weird and silly and stupid. And it's all superstition, but then we get to this tiny section of the Bible, this one throwaway line, and it's tough to reconcile, because it seems like it's saying that demons had children with humans, and they became the Nephilim. 


[01:02:52] The phraseology there seems to be a reference to something that's somewhat angelic in nature, and immediately after that it talks about the great heroes of old, which we don't see anymore today. And there are certainly figures like Goliath, and there have been attempts to say it's just, it's giants. 


[01:03:10] Giants came about there. It's okay. And 


[01:03:13] Gina: yet behemoths weren't dinosaurs, but 


[01:03:17] Ben: Yeah, no, I got you. There's a lot of attempts to try to translate out things that would be difficult for Christians to digest. No matter what, I do think And we need to face what's written there. It does seem like, and I could be wrong, I'm open to having my mind changed. 


[01:03:34] But it does seem like the Bible is saying that demons did specifically get women pregnant in the distant past. And the question is, what happens to those people when they die? Because it's a corrupt thing having a child with a human. A fully evil, terrible embodiment of evil that has fully rejected God. 


[01:03:56] Does God provide the animating force for that child? Does God provide the spirit for that child? That also begs the question, can demons create spirit? Can they create the animating force for their own children? Presuming that's what the translation is. There are a lot of difficulties in translating that specific verse that way. 


[01:04:16] Which is why I understand why so many people have done their best to make it No, it's not that demons had children with humans. Because it is difficult. There are so many difficult questions that we don't have answers to there. At the same time, and again, I'm open to having my mind changed, I don't know how this works. 


[01:04:36] We will address this later, folks, but there, there are impure spirits mentioned in the Bible, and they seem like they're different from demons. Again, we'll address this later, we'll go into more detail later. If they are different from demons, then it could, where did they come from? Did God just make a bunch of impure spirits from the beginning of the world? 


[01:04:55] I don't know. Did God just make a bunch of evil stuff? No, presumably not. So then where would impure spirits come from? Was it just, people just slapped the label spirits on everything because they were stupid and didn't know how medicine worked? I don't know. It's possible. That's one of the explanations people have given. 


[01:05:11] Another possible explanation is that there are fallen angels that are demons and then there are impure spirits which are the spirits of dead Nephilim. Again, it's, it feels weird to say it. I don't know. I don't know if that's the truth. It is a potential explanation. We'll go into it a bit more later. 


[01:05:26] Just putting a pin in, that's a potential explanation. What do you think, Cody? Is that about reasonable as the subject can be? 


[01:05:32] Cody: I do think that also opens the door for a lot of other tough issues for new Christians or people having issues with the genocide of Jared Canan, we know that 400 years needed to pass from Abraham before they were to their fullest extent of sin. 


[01:05:53] And then you have this depiction of there being giants in the land that it was Joshua and Caleb. Yeah, because they were, Caleb was excited to. Yeah. Use all guns. Yeah. But so you have this reference of giants and then you have the Goliath connection and okay, are these just super humans or because if you look at Goliath, he's more than just tall. 


[01:06:18] He's also ridiculously strong. I can't remember the weight of his sword alone or spear tip was ridiculously heavy for a normal spirit. 


[01:06:28] Ben: Yeah. Yeah. I think. It was like, I can't remember exactly. I think it was something like 17 pounds. And for reference, a sword is less than three usually. 


[01:06:37] Cody: Yeah. It's ridiculous to, to be wielding that type of thing. 


[01:06:42] That's superhuman strength as well. So he's also, he's really tall and he's also ridiculously strong. That doesn't sound anywhere in the realm of humanity to me. 


[01:06:53] Ben: And I believe it was either four brothers or five brothers that he had that were also the same size as him. Yeah. That's a fun fact. That's why David chose five smooth stones, which is, that's pretty awesome. 


[01:07:05] It's like, David chose 


[01:07:07] Gina: the I'm getting them all. 


[01:07:08] Ben: I picture like an action movie with David where there's like a guy who follows him, who's being all smug, and he sees him pick up five smooth stones for his sling and he's like, What, you think you'll miss? He's like, No. It's in case his brothers show up. 


[01:07:19] Cody: You should have pitched that to Angel Studios when they were doing Young David. 


[01:07:24] Ben: Oh, I would gladly write the script for that David movie. Man, that would make an amazing movie. 


[01:07:29] Cody: So there's different. Different doors that open or different explanations that open, because if God's reason for not sparing any of these cultures was to wipe out this abomination of DNA transmission, it makes it more bearable, I think, to the average person of, 


[01:07:50] Gina: especially if those people didn't have the same capability of eternity. 


[01:07:55] Cody: Yeah, and I don't want to diminish the other side, still, because Paul Kopin, he wrote the Is God a Moral Monster and Is God a Vindictive Bully, makes a good argument from the annihilation of those, of Canaan, um, without adding any of that in there. But it makes sense again, not putting my Vatican stamp on it, but there's different areas you can get to when interpreting that specific passage differently. 


[01:08:34] Ben: Like we said, there's. So many implications from just the slight change in interpretation from two verses in the Bible. And if you interpret it one way, there are certain issues that you need to address. And if you interpret it another way, there are completely separate issues that you need to address. 


[01:08:52] But solutions to some of the issues that I've had at the very least from reading the Bible suddenly become a lot easier to reconcile. It's just there are separate questions suddenly that become things you have to deal with. It's just, it's, it is a bit frustrating we don't have any concrete answers to these questions, but I think there's a good reason that we don't. 


[01:09:10] Cody: No, and one of the main issues for taking the Sons of God approach to me is you have to lean a lot into the supernatural. And that means you have to fill in the gaps a lot, because it's not something, one, we really understand anything about, and it's, Another, this too, it's, we don't really have a lot of scripture explaining the supernaturals. 


[01:09:34] It makes sense. It can make sense, but there's also, you got to fill in the gaps a little bit more, I think. 


[01:09:42] Ben: Or at the very least be willing to not have answers to a lot of questions. Yeah. To be willing to just let those gaps be gaps. 


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