Relationship With Church Part 1

[00:00:00] Cody: Hi, thank you for tuning in to the Logic of God podcast. I'm Cody. 


[00:00:14] Gina: I'm Gina. 


[00:00:14] Cody: And I'm Ben. If you're returning, thank you for coming back and if you are a new guest, welcome. 


[00:00:34] Gina: So we've learned how to read the Bible. And study the Bible. And we've talked about how to find a church. So now that I've found my church, what do I do with it? 


[00:00:46] Ben: Yeah, that's a good question. So for a lot of people, they may have found some kind of a church, but they maybe only attend once or twice a year. 


[00:00:54] So like once for Easter, once for Christmas, and then that's more or less enough, and then they'll say they're Christian, but it really doesn't go farther than that. So, what really is the minimum amount you should be going to church? The minimum, because 


[00:01:06] Cody: the least amount of what I need to do to be saved is what I go for every time. 


[00:01:12] Gina: Listen, I want eternity for the bare minimum. 


[00:01:14] Ben: Yeah, that is the attitude I think a lot of people approach this. It's like, okay, what's the minimum amount for God to know that I'm here? I'm part of the team. And I got my get out of hell free card. And then that's it. I can do what I want with my time. I think the better question is, what should you be seeking? 


[00:01:29] Like, what's the amount of time at church a person starting out should be looking to do? 


[00:01:33] Gina: Is it your goal to check a box or is it your goal to have a relationship? Because with or without church, you have the option of a relationship with God. And you don't build that relationship solely through church. 


[00:01:48] Cody: If you're just checking a box, you need to be there for Wednesday Bible study, Saturday for mission outreach, Sunday morning for worship. 


[00:01:56] Gina: I wish my church did that. Sorry. 


[00:02:00] Cody: The old school. 


[00:02:02] Gina: Yeah. 


[00:02:03] Ben: Yeah, so the question is, what is your goal? If your goal is that you're testing the waters, you're trying to find the church, you're trying to figure out what church you want, It doesn't make sense for you to go to that church and then just start attending every single thing. 


[00:02:16] Like, you know, the pastor's washing the windows. You go to a pew and you watch him do it, like Mark Lowry used to say. Like, that's not reasonable. You start going regularly, like once a week. You give it some time. You find out if you agree with the church, its doctrines, if you agree with the pastor, if you like the pastor, if you like the worship. 


[00:02:35] If everything is more or less what you hope for, then yeah, you should be going regularly every week, but that's not where it should stop. If we were to look at this in terms of a relationship with a person, like let's say that you have someone that you're going out with and you think, okay, so I want to know the minimum amount of time that I need to stay with this person. 


[00:02:52] I'll go out with them once a week. I will sit with them for an hour and then that's it. 


[00:02:57] Gina: That sounds a little clingy, Ben. 


[00:02:59] Ben: A little demanding, a little needy. 


[00:03:02] Cody: What if I show up after worship's done and only get the last With Starbucks and only get the last portion of the sermon. Is that enough? 


[00:03:10] Ben: No. The idea is that Christ is a person. 


[00:03:13] You're trying to get to know Him. You're trying to get closer to Him. And if all you're doing is coming once a week, like, that's a fine place to start, but once you start getting settled into the church, you should really start looking for more than just that. There are going to be events that your church throws, And you don't have to go to every single one of those. 


[00:03:30] You should be looking for the ones that either you feel you can contribute through volunteering or ones that you feel like you could be edified in. And even some that you don't think you would necessarily be. There's a certain programs like Celebrate Recovery that are at different churches. And you may not think that there's anything you specifically need freedom from, which is what the idea behind Celebrate Recovery is. 


[00:03:48] We 


[00:03:48] Gina: all need freedom. 


[00:03:49] Ben: We all have something that's holding us down. We all have something in our past that's holding us back. And if you go to celebrate recovery, you'll find that there are a lot of people who've struggled with things that may be able to help you out in your own personal struggles. 


[00:04:00] Gina: I want to backtrack for a second because I want to. 


[00:04:04] Specify, first, the church's role in your relationship with God. I think that a lot of people come to church, and they either have hit a point where they just need a change, or they're almost maybe at their last ditch effort to help whatever problems they're going through, and so church becomes their only hope. 


[00:04:22] Instead of God being their only hope, because they go and they're welcomed and these people are warm and kind to them in most cases and the pastor takes this role of Jesus and the church takes this role of God and we've forgotten all about the pursuit of the relationship with God. And so I want to put church in the right place because it's important, but it's not the most important part of your relationship with God. 


[00:04:46] Your most important part of your relationship is your attention on God and your obedience to God. So I want to start there just because I know for myself when I was a new believer, I totally had it all mixed up. And I believed that my pastors and the leaders in my church were perfect and that my life could be like that if I was good enough. 


[00:05:05] And it just really created an unhealthy expectation for me in my relationship with my church and in my relationship with God. As soon as something went wrong, my relationship with God was over. So I want to like lead from there because people get church hurt and then they quit church. And they quit God. 


[00:05:24] So, any thoughts, Cody? 


[00:05:26] Cody: No, I'm just here for the ride. No, no, I think that's a very good place to start. We, like you said, put the pastors or the church itself on a pedestal, and instead of, coming there to be edified, we decide that it needs to be this perfect thing. And if it's not, we get frustrated and either leave the church or we put too much investment in the leaders of the church and we'll leave because they're not saying the right things or doing the right things. 


[00:05:56] So that will end up throwing you off. But like you said, you got to realize that they're people too. They still sin. They still have struggles. And they will let you down at some point in time, a church will let you down at some point in time, but you got to remember that it is not a end all be all. It is a continual effort from the church itself and from yourself. 


[00:06:21] Gina: I like to say church is a hospital. You're sometimes going to find the most broken people there. Like, people at work and even in your social circle aren't as likely to be vulnerable with you, but at church it's a different ballgame. And when there's vulnerability, there's a lot of, like, anger or sensitivity to things like rejection or gossip and being made fun of. 


[00:06:41] And so I've seen a lot of people struggle with their relationship with church because of those things. If you go in expecting that making the decision to be a Christian and go to church is going to change everything, and that the people that are leading that organization are perfect, you're going to be disappointed every single time. 


[00:06:59] Cody: Yeah, a church is full of sinners, and it becomes less perfect the moment you walk through the door. 


[00:07:07] Ben: It's important to remember that the Bible refers to all of us as brothers and sisters in Christ. And this includes your pastor, it includes your deacons, it includes all of the people in the church leadership. 


[00:07:17] And as brothers and sisters, no one of us is higher than the other. Now, we do have people like pastors and deacons. We do have people who are further along in their journey with Christ. And so, we will defer to these people to try to help us to get to the same place that they're at right now. But just because they're a bit further in their walk, one, doesn't mean that they're perfect. 


[00:07:38] And two, doesn't mean that everything that they say is right. And so, as Christians, and as a part of the church body, as their brothers and sisters, we, one, do need to hold these people accountable, who we consider to be church leadership. And two, we need to hold each other accountable. And so it's important for you, if you're starting in this church body, if you're still fairly new, to try to get to the point where you can help hold other people accountable. 


[00:08:00] And if you're not quite there yet, then it's important to make yourself open to be held accountable. Because when you do that, you're actually being a guiding light for other people. It's very inspiring to see someone who is very new to Christianity, who is opening themselves up and saying, Okay, whatever it is that I'm doing, I want to know that I'm doing it for Christ. 


[00:08:18] I want you to let me know. And granted, there is some danger in that. I know of some people who are a bit too open and they just take in everything. And sometimes they'll get contradictory ideas. They'll start to get different doctrines and they don't know what to do with them. Be wary of that when you start out, but for the most part, staying open and staying teachable, trying to get to the point where you can instruct others is an important first step. 


[00:08:41] Gina: So we've established that we found a church. It's not good enough to just show up and then leave and not do anything with it. We've talked about how often to attend. But what about church involvement? 


[00:08:55] Cody: So how much involvement should you have in a church? Ben outlined going to events, serving, stuff like that. 


[00:09:03] That's good advice for newer Christians, but what about the more Seated Christians like how much serving is to how much involvement is too much like when should you evaluate your? Serving in a church setting inside the four walls 


[00:09:20] Gina: Can you list for somebody list the ways to get involved like what that would look like for somebody who doesn't know? 


[00:09:27] Ben: So it depends on the church, but there's generally a A hierarchy of needs in every church, and they're very similar. So, like, there's childcare, a nursery in pretty much every church, because you need to have some place that's safe for your children to be dropped off. And they are chronically understaffed in pretty much every single church that you go to. 


[00:09:44] Because nobody wants to be there. and take care of someone else's kids. They want to be at the service and listening to the pastor and have the freedom to come and go as they please. So that's one place. Um, a lot of churches have greeters. That's a very easy thing to do. And also it's another one of those things where they don't have a lot of people to help out. 


[00:10:00] You just stand in front of the church and you greet people. You smile and say hello. That's really all you need to do. It's a simple thing, but it really does help for people who are brand new and are coming in and they don't really know what to think about this place. Seeing a friendly face and someone who shakes your hand, and even takes the time, I've known a lot of greeters who take the time to try to learn people's names. 


[00:10:18] And they memorize tons of names. And they do their best to strike up very brief conversations with each person. It is a skill, and it's a wonderful thing if you can do it well and do it right. But even if you don't know how to do it yet, just volunteering there and saying hi to people as they come into church is a great way to help out. 


[00:10:35] Also, you'll find that there are certain things that aren't necessarily jobs in the church, but if you just go up to your pastor and say, Hey, so What can I do to help? Some pastors are out working 70 hours a week, just trying to do literally everything possible. And this kind of goes, Cody, to what you were talking about with, when's it too much? 


[00:10:52] There are certain pastors who try to take literally every single job possible. 


[00:10:56] Gina: Or even like volunteers that will do that. 


[00:10:58] Ben: Yes, there are pastors. There are volunteers. I've known both. People who feel the weight of the church, the responsibility, and they feel a genuine calling to help. But they don't say no every single time there is anything that pops up They feel like if they don't take it No one else will And to an extent they're right because there are a lot of people who just don't want to help out in the church They want to show up the once a week and they feel that's enough and then they disappear And so there are a handful of people who will volunteer for literally everything and i've seen this in every church that i've ever been In there's a handful of people who show up to literally everything. 


[00:11:29] They do not sleep. I don't think they sleep They don't sleep And they just, they volunteer for everything, no matter what it is. And it doesn't even matter if they know what they're doing, they will go and they will serve, but then they get burnt out and nobody comes to help them, nobody comes to swap them in or out. 


[00:11:44] So yeah, in those instances, find those people and just ask, look, what can I do to help you? What can I do to ease your burden? You're performing an act of service and doing that, and you may not know what you're doing. It's okay. And it may feel awkward asking, but I guarantee you, they're going to appreciate it. 


[00:11:58] And maybe they'll turn you away at first. Cause it's a point of pride for a lot of people. 


[00:12:03] Gina: It's also like, I've had a lot of experience like interviewing people to volunteer and there are certain volunteer teams where you need a certain level of trust and relationship before you'll be invited onto a team, especially like things that revolve around like financial or counting tithe money and things like that. 


[00:12:22] Don't take it personally if you're an accountant and you think you would be really awesome at helping with the contributions and then it doesn't work out for you right away. It's something that takes a lot of trust and a lot of time before you would be welcomed into a team like that and it's not personal. 


[00:12:38] Ben: And if you know you would be good, like a good fit in a certain area of the church, then please be persistent. Like, don't just take the first no as, okay, I guess I'm not supposed to do this. No, like Gina said, sometimes it's just a matter of trust. Sometimes it's a matter of getting to know the people in the church first. 


[00:12:54] So this goes out both to people who are fresh. If you're completely fresh, there are certain jobs you're just not going to get. Just walking up to the pastor day one and saying, hey, what can I do? That's not likely to get you anywhere. You have to have been there a while. People have to know who you are, know your name at the very least, before they're going to start trusting you to do anything. 


[00:13:13] Gina: And that's not to say like, Most churches have like a background check system in place, so even if there's not a place immediately for you to serve because of a process that they have to place you on a team, even if you have a history of like certain activities or whatever, there's usually still a place for you to serve. 


[00:13:31] It just takes some time to find the right fit. And it's not, like, if your church is treating you with disrespect because of that, or they're, maybe you haven't done anything in your past and you still feel like you can't find your place, I would speak up and say so, or try to find a different church home. 


[00:13:49] There are some churches that are really tiny, and we've found that they are super exclusive and they don't want outside help, and you're a stranger to them, and that's the culture of their church. But some churches are really in need of people who are willing to help and serve, and so if that's you, someone's no to you can be your yes somewhere else, and it can be a huge blessing. 


[00:14:10] So try not to take it personally if you feel rejected by a church or by a certain team, because it's not like a forever thing, and there are other opportunities out there. And you can also take it upon yourself to serve outside of the church. I don't know if that's something you want to talk about. 


[00:14:24] That's something that we've taken on ourselves. 


[00:14:26] Cody: Yeah, going back to the serving. So we talked about how you can get involved in what to do from a volunteer perspective, coming in and wanting to serve. But ministry burnout is very high and a real thing. So on the flip side of that, you So, as a leader in these aspects, if you're feeling any kind of burnout, most congregants or new people to the church would love to feel useful and to fulfill a need, not just another warm body, but to fulfill an actual need that is stressing you out or causing maybe you can't put your heart into it. 


[00:15:05] So it's not as good as it could be. There's somebody that you can pass that off to. And a story I like to use for that is. When Moses was taking on all of the problems of the Israelites, his father in law had some really good advice of establishing leadership in that role so Moses could pass that off, where these other individuals would get a blessing out of being useful, while also easing the stress and burden on Moses. 


[00:15:35] And I think that's in Exodus 18, but it's a good philosophy to have if you're feeling burnout or you don't feel like you have enough space or time to do what is on your plate. 


[00:15:45] Ben: I think there is a temptation amongst a lot of people in leadership. To take on too much because you feel overburdened, and that's the way it's supposed to be. 


[00:15:54] I do think that there is this image of the man who's strong and struggles on nobly and takes on everything and takes on all the burdens of the church and does everything without giving a thought to themselves. 


[00:16:05] Gina: It's like that monk idea where they used to like, 


[00:16:09] Ben: Yeah, it is a kind of modern version of self flagellation, but without the whip. 


[00:16:13] It's the idea that you should be suffering. And I think that is a kind of corrupted idea of the truth. To some degree, we are all suffering because there is an aspect of ourselves that is sinful. And so we are struggling against that to try to be better. But I think that there is such a thing as unnecessary suffering. 


[00:16:31] If you are taking on jobs as a leader, that could be delegated out to other people who could do the job just as good or better than you can. You are denying them the blessing that they could be having in their lives. You are denying yourself peace, and you are denying your family the peace that they would have with you being more present. 


[00:16:49] Gina: Absolutely. 


[00:16:50] Cody: And that goes into our next point really well because The church is described as many body parts, and the leader is going to be the head, or in biblical terms, the Christ is the head, and then you have your various body parts after that. But not everybody's going to be a hand, not everybody's going to be a leg, you're going to have some toenails in there, but everybody has a different function and purpose inside of the church body. 


[00:17:18] A sign of a good leader is to be able to exploit those other people, the other congregants, or other brothers and sisters in Christ. Exploit their strengths and hone in on those and develop those and put them in roles where you're feeling comfortable. overburdened or you're taking on too much to further God's kingdom. 


[00:17:39] Ben: And this is something that does need to be approached at both ends. So at the top level, as the leader, you should be constantly looking for people who are in your congregation, who can fulfill the different roles. Become the different body parts of the body of Christ. But then also as the congregation, as an individual member, you should constantly be looking for those roles that you can fulfill. 


[00:18:00] You should be looking to shift the burden off of the people who are already lifting. You should be looking to join in that. 


[00:18:05] Cody: Definitely. 


[00:18:06] Gina: So my opinion at the beginning about like, what's your intention? Where's your heart when you pick a church and go to a church? What is your intention behind serving? Are you trying to earn your salvation? 


[00:18:18] Are you trying to buddy your way up to being best friends with the pastor just because you like being in the cool kids club? What's your intention? Because, like, I've learned the hard way with intention that if your heart's not in the right place or you're looking to fulfill something in yourself that maybe it has nothing to do with the Lord, you're going to be exhausted. 


[00:18:39] You're going to have that imbalance that Ben was just talking about. And I've seen it in leadership and I've also seen it as a volunteer myself and in other volunteers and I don't know, like just knowing your intention, knowing why you would choose to serve or lead or help in certain ways is really important. 


[00:18:58] Like evaluating that constantly. Anytime somebody asks you to do more is really important because you'll get caught up wanting to people please. And, like, when stuff goes wrong in your life, those people may not necessarily care. I feel like if you're not building it on a firm foundation and, and developing relationships for the right reasons and serving for the right reasons, you're going to find yourself disappointed and burn out. 


[00:19:23] That's my wisdom. 


[00:19:24] Ben: Now, I think it's worth noting, because there are probably plenty of people who are listening and are thinking, okay. So this is all well and good for people who have, like, very good marketable skills that would work in a church setting. Like, let's say there's someone who's experienced in sound design, or someone who's experienced with working lights at shows at a theater or something, or people who are very good at public speaking, or people who are experienced with child care, things like that. 


[00:19:50] But there are some people who may feel like they have literally nothing to offer. Now, one, I don't buy that. If you're listening to this and thinking, well, I'm just not good at anything, like I said, you could literally stand in front of the church and shake people's hands and smile. If you can't do that, or you feel anxious about doing that kind of thing, I understand. 


[00:20:06] There are people who are not very good at that. The idea is that there are very simple things that you can do for your church that are very helpful. But setting that aside, let's say that it's true and you literally do have nothing to offer the church in terms of your own physical ability. Cody referenced the chapter and verse in the Bible that talks about the body of Christ, how we all are basically different parts. 


[00:20:26] That's actually found in 1 Corinthians chapter 12, verses 27 through 31. And it outlines a lot more than just the fact that we are the body of Christ. It actually outlines things called spiritual gifts. So, real quick, I'll go ahead and go through that. That's, again, 1 Corinthians chapter 12, verses 27 through 31. 


[00:20:44] Now, you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those who have gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. 


[00:21:03] Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? Eagerly desire the greater gifts. The idea is that there are certain gifts that God can gift anybody, even if you have nothing to offer coming into the church to start, and God can give you the gift that you need in order to be helpful to be that part of the body that you need to be. 


[00:21:29] Now, I do think there may be certain people listening to this who think, okay. You had me up to this point, but now you're talking about, like, weird spirit stuff, and speaking in tongues, really healing people. Like, yeah, that's, it's all fine and good to say that people like Peter could do that, or John could do that, or Jesus could do that. 


[00:21:47] Like, they were great people who existed a long time ago, that stuff doesn't happen now, I can't do that. Like, what would you guys have to say to people who come at it from that perspective? 


[00:21:55] Gina: We can agree to disagree. 


[00:21:58] Ben: Sounds like you're still a child 


[00:21:59] Gina: of God. 


[00:21:59] Cody: They need to up their prayer game. 


[00:22:02] Gina: Yeah, I mean, I am not very extreme in my beliefs as far as the charismatic stuff goes. 


[00:22:09] Like, I have, I don't believe I've ever heard somebody speak in tongues in an authentic way. I have never witnessed a miraculous healing. I have stories of Healings that have happened in our family, but it wasn't like the laying on of hands and the anointing and then suddenly somebody got up and ran around the church. 


[00:22:30] I've never seen that. So, do I believe it's possible? Anything is possible. Do I believe that I have those gifts? No. But that doesn't mean they don't exist. And also, I haven't pursued knowledge of those gifts specifically because of certain experiences I've had in my life. So, like I, I'm not going to ever say that those don't exist anymore and there are certain gifts that I've experienced and that I have myself, but I just, I don't know. 


[00:22:57] I could never see myself putting a finite answer on something like that. What about you, sir? 


[00:23:02] Cody: What about me? 


[00:23:03] Gina: What's your belief on this whole body of Christ thing? Are you a toenail? 


[00:23:07] Cody: I'm a toenail. 


[00:23:08] Gina: Thought so. 


[00:23:09] Cody: I'm the least of these. I'm the little pinky toenail. But as far as spiritual gifts go, I'm in line with Gina. 


[00:23:15] Gina: What she said. 


[00:23:16] Cody: What she said. Um, grew up, not necessarily cessation ist, but is that how you say it? Cessation ist. Yes, you did it. I always say sensation alist, but I think that would be the opposite of cessation ist. But, uh. Yeah, I grew up not full blown cessationist, like, church going and what I was brought up on, but pretty much, like, the charismatic movement in the church I grew up in was non existent. 


[00:23:47] They talked about the Holy Spirit or the Holy Ghost in the King James Version, but it wasn't until recently that I've opened my eyes to that. Not necessarily that I've seen that, but it's still active today. 


[00:24:01] Gina: He is still active today. 


[00:24:02] Ben: Yes. 


[00:24:03] Gina: Correct. Correct. 


[00:24:04] Ben: Mm 


[00:24:04] Cody: hmm. 


[00:24:05] Gina: You haven't said what you think. 


[00:24:06] Ben: So I grew up with a father who actually has a lot of these gifts. 


[00:24:10] He does speak in tongues, and he speaks fairly regularly, as well as my mother. And he does have the gift of healing. He is able to pray for people and heal them, and he has done that in the past. And he does have the gift of prophecy. And there were actually quite a few people in my church growing up who had that gift. 


[00:24:25] So this is, unfortunately, I'm coming into this particular segment fairly biased because I've been around it my entire life. And I've experienced it to a lesser degree in my own life. It's definitely been something that's been more prominent with my father and my mother and with a lot of the people in the church leadership for the church I grew up in. 


[00:24:45] For me, not as prominently. But that's more because for most of my life I actually had a fairly firm hand up keeping Christ at a distance. Because I was always afraid of spiritual things and spiritual stuff. Because of things that happened when I was very young. But I'm as certain as I can be about just about anything that these gifts still exist today. 


[00:25:05] For Because I, I don't believe that my father's a liar, and I don't believe that my mother's a liar, and I don't believe that anybody It was a part of my old church growing up was a liar and they talked about these gifts and they talked about going on missions trips and doing miraculous healings. And there's studies that have been done on this that are cited in Lee Strobel's The Case for Miracles. 


[00:25:25] And there was a study that was done by Dr. Candy Gunther Brown about whether or not people can pray for other people and then have it be healed. And you can make the argument as to whether or not that is a gift of healing or if that's just us asking God and then God does it. I think that's ultimately where a lot of the conflict in this area comes between different segments of Christianity. 


[00:25:45] And I think it's not super helpful to try to dissect all of this in the short segment that we have here, so I won't go too deep into it. But I think the idea is that are the gifts something you have or is it something that God is doing through you? And I think we all agree there are things that God can do through people. 


[00:26:03] So whether or not you want to say that there are gifts like that are outlined in 1 Corinthians chapter 12. That there are gifts that God will give an individual person and that gift is yours. And yes, he is working through you, but in the end, it's something that he has given you, just like he's given every other good thing in your life. 


[00:26:22] Or if it's something that God just does, externally, just like he can do a miracle anywhere. We all agree that God can do miracles, and if you open yourself up to him, he can do a miracle through you, whether or not you want to call that a spiritual gift. So the idea is that even if you have nothing to offer the church, if you open yourself up to him, I 


[00:26:48] Gina: agree. 


[00:26:49] And I think for those who are maybe newer believers, It's really important, like, just like we say on every episode, don't take our word for it. If you have somebody in your church, or in your life, or maybe even like an influencer that says, like, I'm a prophet, or I am a miracle worker, or whatever title they give themselves, like, I would proceed with caution, and I would say, like, Satan masquerades as an angel of light, and you should really test everything. 


[00:27:17] So anything that you're hearing that refers to these gifts that's being used for self promotion or like fortune telling or like making promises. I would say test it very thoroughly and I would say even doubt it and just take it to the Lord in prayer and maybe even seek wise counsel because it's a slippery slope to go from hearing on a podcast that prophecy is real and then having somebody give you a word that may or may not be from the Lord and running with it. 


[00:27:50] Like, I know so many people who've been like, well, this stranger told me that I was going to have a baby and I am still in the waiting and if God says it, I believe it. And like, who's to say that person really was a prophet. Maybe they had gone through something similar and they felt sorry for them and were able to discern that they were struggling with that, but they really didn't get a word from the Lord. 


[00:28:13] Cody: Yeah. And I'd like to, there's a difference between the prophecy Spiritual gift in the title prophet. I wanna, we spoke about the NAR movement and the title prophet and people claiming that title for themselves. That's a lot different than this prophecy title that, or this prophecy spiritual gift that Paul is speaking about. 


[00:28:36] I believe it's either early, I think it's earlier on in Corinthians, he talks about what prophecy is for and building the church, not necessarily the fortune telling that everybody believes prophets are in today's day and age. 


[00:28:50] Ben: And keep in mind, We would all agree that medicine exists, right? There are also fake miracle cures that people are going to try to push on you. 


[00:28:58] There's also bad science behind certain medical practices. That's why we're constantly developing year on year, and there are things that we used to do in the medical field that we no longer do, because as it turns out, they're harmful. So, Snake oil. Snake oil salesman. So in the same way, you do need to be very prudent. 


[00:29:16] There is the real genuine article. I think there are a lot of people who look at the videos online of fake healings where there's like, Oh, there's a guy with a leg slightly shorter than the other. And now grow and oh, it's the same size now that the legs are the same size And we're like when you 


[00:29:32] Gina: get whipped in the face with a sport coat 


[00:29:36] Cody: The true gifts are not used for self promotion and to further that person's name or ministry like take Benny Hinn for what he's worth, but the sport blazer wave in the crowd where everybody falls down and is instantly healed has been disproven and End These great signs and recordings of him doing these miracles are not really what he portrays. 


[00:30:04] Gina: Satan masquerades as an angel of light. 


[00:30:06] Cody: Mm hmm. Did you just call Bennyhead Satan? 


[00:30:10] Gina: Listen, anyone that I'm not even going there. He's a child of God, okay? 


[00:30:16] Ben: Well, so then that does beg two different questions. One, how do you know if it's the genuine article? And two, how do you get it? If it's real, 


[00:30:24] Gina: well, there's, there are verses that talk about like encouraging people that are not apostles to pray, to have the gift of prophecy because it is one of the most effective means of building the church. 


[00:30:38] And so I believe that you can ask God for wisdom and for prophetic word. I think you can ask God to give you all of the spiritual gifts. Now, will he actually give you all of the spiritual gifts? Probably not. Because I think that we are uniquely gifted and having all of them wouldn't serve God's purpose. 


[00:30:58] But, I do believe that if we don't know what our spiritual gifts are, or if we maybe would like to have another one that's very meaningful to us for whatever reason, then we can ask God for that gift, and He can choose to give it to us. But as far as like identifying the real deal, I don't know that it's, there's a clear cut answer. 


[00:31:21] I think it, it goes with, is there somebody who can interpret that's trustworthy? Is there a certain sense of peace with something that's said? Does the spirit give you any sense of doubt? Because I've, I was at a place one time where somebody stood up on a stage and claimed to be a prophet. The whole time I was like, this isn't real. 


[00:31:43] Like I felt almost like annoyed by it. And I knew like that it was God speaking to me through these really strong emotions. And so I just knew, and like then going home and being able to process and talking to some friends about it, like, feeling peace when I came to terms with the fact that, okay, this is something that was promoted as being authentic, but it wasn't authentic and processing that. 


[00:32:09] But I don't think that there is like a lie detector that we're going to have other than just sensitivity to the Holy Spirit. 


[00:32:17] Cody: Testing it with scripture. I went, we went through a Bible study. Um, the Bible tells us to test every spirit. So how do you test that? The cannon, the measuring rod, It's like if you're chasing the healing, like you're praying for that, and that's the gift that you want, I think that your intentions are misguided. 


[00:32:40] Like you should chase the healer, not the healing. 


[00:32:43] Gina: There's the story in scripture of the guy that tries to buy the power of the Holy Spirit. Yeah, Simon. Yeah. And that would be like my favorite story for having bad intentions for people. The spiritual gifts. 


[00:32:58] Cody: His name was Simon, right? The magician? The sorcerer, yeah. 


[00:33:02] That's a good one. 


[00:33:04] Gina: He wasn't pulling rabbits out of hats. 


[00:33:06] Ben: Yeah, coincidentally, this is something that I was actually talking with my dad about yesterday while we were going for a car ride doing some errands. I was talking with him specifically about the gift of leadership and, you know, how common it is, because that's something that we discussed in one of our previous episodes. 


[00:33:22] And he was talking to me about how when he became a Christian, he was so in love with the Lord that he asked God for every gift. And he genuinely meant it. And it wasn't because he wanted to be some kind of superhero or some nonsense like that. Like, he didn't have this image in his head that he would be going around flying through the air and touching people and healing them and solving all the world's problems. 


[00:33:42] It was, Christ offers these things. He loves Christ. And he's told in the Bible, which he believes in with all his heart, that he should desire the greater gifts and all these things can be his. And through these things, he can serve Christ better. And so it was like, well, yeah, obviously I want these things. 


[00:33:59] And he very quickly got most, if not all of them. Now, my father's unique in that he is a man who has the gift of leadership. And I think, in the hierarchy that's outlined in Chapter 12, at the top is Apostles, who are the leaders of the Church. The true gift of leadership, the spiritual gift of leadership, I think is incredibly rare. 


[00:34:16] And one of the reasons is because it does require that you have a bunch of the other gifts, often. Because you, you're going to be called to do pretty much everything. Now that doesn't mean that you are every part of the body. It's just like it says in Chapter 12, there are other parts of the body. 


[00:34:29] Gina: And we know your dad, like we did a year long certification with him and he never once like stood up on a chair and was like, follow me, I have the gifts. 


[00:34:39] No, when 


[00:34:39] Ben: you meet people who actually have the gifts, they're just that, they are people. 


[00:34:43] Gina: Yeah. 


[00:34:43] Ben: When you meet, I would say that one of the best way you can use your BS detector with the people who claim to have the gifts is, are they presenting themselves as special, unique? people. Are they presenting themselves as being on a pedestal? 


[00:34:56] Not that other people have put them on one, because my father certainly been put on the pedestal by a number of people over the years, including myself, which I've had to learn not to do. But there are people who will put themselves up. They will say, I am a prophet. Listen to me, worship me in effect, because I speak with the voice of God. 


[00:35:15] Therefore I am him. And I think that, yes, and that's what a lot of people who are in these kinds of movements are trying to do. They're trying to get people to look at them, to follow them, to essentially worship them. Now there, that's not the case for everybody. I do think there are some people who feel like they're getting this feeling or this thought. 


[00:35:33] And so they will say, oh, the Lord told me and yeah, that's very common. Like everybody does. Yeah, 


[00:35:39] Gina: it's funny because I had a pastor that was counseling me and I was like, well, the Lord told me that and she was like, okay, let's stop for a second. Are you hearing voices? She was a cessationist and I didn't know it at the time. 


[00:35:52] So it was actually a really entertaining conversation. And I explained like, no, it's more like discernment. And just like through prayer that I've come to this conclusion. And she was like, oh no, that makes perfect sense. But she was thinking that I was hearing the audible voice of the Lord. And it was a funny conversation. 


[00:36:10] Sorry. 


[00:36:11] Ben: No, it doesn't even need to be an audible voice for those of you who are wondering if you're seeking the gifts and you want the gift of prophecy, the gift of discernment, spiritual discernment. Like there's a story that my dad told me there was a time where he was in a church that wasn't his. He was just visiting this church for the first time and as he was a part of the congregation and this was still fairly early on in his walk with God told him. 


[00:36:32] Stand up and accuse the pastor of adultery. 


[00:36:35] Gina: I love this story. 


[00:36:37] Ben: And he's like, what? And that's what God told him. The pastor is guilty of adultery. Stand up and accuse him in front of the entire church. He's like, I can't do that. I'm, I'm a, I don't even belong to this congregation. I don't know this guy. I don't know any of these people. 


[00:36:52] That's ridiculous. That's crazy. But then, immediately after he said no, another person who is a member of the church who went up and he said just that, he said, okay, everyone, God has just told me that The pastor is guilty of adultery. He's been unfaithful to his wife, and the pastor was brought forward, and he's like, Yeah, actually I am, and it was a very powerful moment. 


[00:37:13] But my dad had said no, and as he was sitting there watching this unfold, the Lord told him, How much more powerful would it have been if you had been the one to stand up? And then this man backed you up. You didn't have enough faith to say yes. Granted, God knew that he wasn't going to do that. My dad considered this much more a teaching moment. 


[00:37:31] But that's the idea. He acted the way that any of us would in that situation. And so He asked for the gifts and he got them, but he was hesitant to use them at first. And I think that's the way it's going to be for all of us. And that's one of the things that you, if you're listening and you're seeking the gifts and you feel like you may be getting them, need to understand is that you're not going to be perfect and you're going to stumble and you're going to fall. 


[00:37:53] It's not going to be an easy road if you try to take on these gifts is what I'm saying. 


[00:37:58] Gina: No, and I want to point out too, because this is something that I learned in the last year. If you try to jump into things with your gifts, or in ministry, or in serving, or in leadership, any of those things, and it's not God's design for that thing that he's given you, you will pay. 


[00:38:18] Ben: So I feel like we've talked enough about this without making it its own episode. And I do feel like it deserves to be its own episode, which we should probably cover at some point. Okay. But going past that, Gina, you've added to our outline here, and you've talked a bit about tithing. So what exactly is the importance of tithing when you're a part of a church? 


[00:38:36] Gina: Oh, don't ask me. 


[00:38:38] Ben: Okay. Well, the 


[00:38:39] Gina: only reason I say that is because I have a really out there view of tithing. 


[00:38:43] Ben: Okay, well, go for it. 


[00:38:44] Gina: Well, traditionally, churches expect that if you would like to be a member of the church, And that's not to say that it's a club, it's just most churches identify membership with tithes, meaning that you've committed to this church, you believe in the vision of the church, you want to put your first 10 percent of your income towards the mission of the church, however the church sees fit to use it. 


[00:39:10] It's an act of trust with your church. It's also an act of obedience towards the Lord with your finances, saying that you're going to give Him the first 10 percent of anything that you make. Not the last 10%, the first 10%. And that's traditionally how it's taught. Am I right or am I wrong? Would you agree with that? 


[00:39:27] Cody: Yeah. 


[00:39:27] Gina: Okay. Cody and I have a really unique approach to tithe. So to me, my 10 percent goes to the Lord. It doesn't always go to my church. There are times where God prompts Cody and I to give specifically. And we do. There are ways that he and I have given that are just not normal, like not typical ways of giving. 


[00:39:50] And sometimes, sometimes our way of giving is not what the church would consider to be the standard tithe, but that's how we operate. 


[00:40:01] Cody: Yeah, I'll speak to that a little bit. Tithe to me is the first 10 percent as to the Lord, not to the church. I would argue with anybody who says otherwise, but as long as the Lord's calling you to give your tithe or your first 10 percent to a certain organization, By all means, listen to the Lord. 


[00:40:23] But if he tells you to give it all to a single mother that you see struggling to buy diapers at the register, that is a valid use of tithe, too. It is the Lord's. 


[00:40:33] Gina: Yeah, I think, well, do you want to weigh in before I move forward with some opinions? Sure. 


[00:40:39] Ben: I don't find anything wrong necessarily with what you guys are saying. 


[00:40:42] In the end, it does belong to the Lord. Now, I do think that It's important to say that churches run almost exclusively on tithes. And so if the entirety of the congregation were all to simultaneously go, you know what, we're going to give to single mothers, we'd rather not give to the church. That would be a noble endeavor, but in the end, the church would fall apart. 


[00:41:03] And I know that there are some people who choose not to give to their church during periods where they seriously have, like, vehement disagreements with, uh, the congregation, or the pastor, or there's some kind of church drama, or what have you. I don't know that's a good reason to not give to your church. 


[00:41:20] The question is, why are you staying with your church if that's the case? Now, again, that doesn't mean that you shouldn't follow what the Lord says. If the Lord's directing you to give somewhere else, you Absolutely do it. And if he's telling you to give to your church, absolutely do it. And if there's a period where he's telling you to give to a separate church for whatever reason, then absolutely you do it. 


[00:41:40] The point is that absolutely, I agree with you guys, the first 10 percent is the Lord's. So if he directs you somewhere else, then do that. I think as a default, If you don't have any real direction, if you don't feel the Lord pulling you in any particular place, then it should really go to the church. 


[00:41:56] Gina: Yeah. 


[00:41:57] Cody: Absolutely. 


[00:41:58] Gina: But, I want to talk about some promises that are made by churches when they ask for the time. 


[00:42:06] Cody: You mean the slot machine. tithe rule. 


[00:42:10] Gina: I want my vending machine, Jesus. 


[00:42:13] Cody: If you tithe, if you give 10%, you're going to be blessed this week. 


[00:42:19] Ben: Well, the Bible does say, test me in this and see if I don't open the floodgates of heaven. 


[00:42:25] There are individual verses, which are cherry picked. And there are people, we talked about this last time you guys brought up. I can't remember the chapter and verse from Jeremiah. Oh, 2911. Yeah, 


[00:42:34] Gina: 2911. 


[00:42:36] Ben: You're welcome. Thank you. Yeah, there's a chapter and verse in Jeremiah that you guys talked about where it's the basis of the prosperity gospel. 


[00:42:43] It's that God wants you to have more than you could ever use, more than you could ever want. And as with so many things, there is a kernel of truth to that. It is stated in Malachi, I think. I'm pretty sure that's where it says, test me in this and see if I don't open the flood gates where it talks about your tithe, your 10%. 


[00:43:00] The Bible does promise you will be provided for if you pay your tithe. Now this does not mean that you're going to become rich, that all you need to do to become an infinite billionaire is to give 10 percent of what you are making right now. 


[00:43:16] Gina: I have a dream of giving away a tractor trailer full of bicycles. 


[00:43:21] I need this to happen. 


[00:43:22] Ben: The tractor trailer itself. You're giving away the tractor trailer, not the, not the bicycles inside. It is the tractor trailer with the bicycles inside. 


[00:43:32] Cody: Take it or leave it. That's the deal. 


[00:43:34] Ben: Sorry. I'm not taking the trailer back. You got to take it with me 


[00:43:37] Cody: Well, we've been watching this show. 


[00:43:38] They'll make it into a house for you 


[00:43:41] Ben: Extreme makeover. Yeah trailer edition 


[00:43:45] Gina: Oh goodness so if you're church if you're new ben to a church and Suddenly this expectation is put on you like we need to keep the lights on and we want to bless You this ministry in Uganda, and we have a kid's ministry and we want to throw a vacation Bible school and we need your 10 percent and God's also going to bless you exceedingly and abundantly above anything you could ever hope and dream if you tithe, like, how do you feel having that thrown at you? 


[00:44:21] Ben: And it's definitely very overwhelming. And I think you're portraying it actually fairly well. I remember there was this one time back when. My brother Jack was still alive and he was still fluttering back and forth between Christianity and Judaism. I was bringing him to the church that I was going to. 


[00:44:36] And I believe there were about four separate times in the opening announcements for that church. They asked for money in one way or another, like they had four different programs that they had. And they were just saying, we need, we need you guys to give us money for this program. And for that program. 


[00:44:51] And we have so many high hopes for this and we're, we're, we're The hands and feet of Jesus. And I think that to be fair, I don't think they were being corrupt or anything. They were using that money genuinely, but there is a focus for a lot of churches in that there's. a great goal, a great vision for the future. 


[00:45:09] There's so many things that they can do. So many different people who have different needs. And it very much becomes a focus on money rather than a focus on the actions of the church. Cody, you and I, and Gina too, you've come out with us a few times. We do frequently go out into the community and we try to do things for people who don't have a whole lot of money. 


[00:45:28] And I've had the temptation at times just throw money at the problem and have it Solve itself. But ultimately the bigger thing for the church really is to be the hands and feet of Jesus. To go out and see what you can do with a modest budget and do it yourself rather than try to find someone else to do it and just throw the money at it. 


[00:45:45] And so often that eventually becomes what the church tries to do. Throw money at a problem. Mm-Hmm. . And once you do that, Christ stops being the focus and the money starts being the focus. So, no matter what, it is important that you give your tithe. And I think we're addressing two different issues here. 


[00:45:59] One, the church's focus on money. And two, what the actual point of your tithe is, whether or not you should be doing it. 


[00:46:06] Gina: And I think the third, issue would be your posture. Like, are you giving out of guilt? Are you giving because you think that it's going to somehow further your relationship with the Lord in terms of like forgiveness and salvation? 


[00:46:22] Or are you giving because you really believe that you're going to become extremely blessed because of this? Like, what's your motive? Because ultimately if you're not giving to the Lord without expectation. I would say your heart posture is probably not where it needs to be. And I think that's where a lot of people run into issues with the blessing and the promises and even with their own, like, salvation because they've come in with expectations that aren't really honorable. 


[00:46:53] And whether the church has honorable intentions for the money or not is irrelevant at that point because you've given with bad intentions. 


[00:47:00] Cody: Is your money tainted at that point? Is the church, is your church more willing to not steward the money well because of your poor heart posture? 


[00:47:12] Gina: Well, and does tithing excuse you from serving, or from evangelizing, or from being kind to people? 


[00:47:20] Like, is that your checkbox that's allowed you to then go off and do whatever you want? 


[00:47:26] Cody: No, not to tithe, but if you give 12%, I think it would excuse you. If you go above and beyond that extra 2%. You don't have to do anything else. You're you, you bought your ticket to heaven at that point. 


[00:47:39] Gina: Oh, well, maybe we've got to look at the budget. 


[00:47:42] I 


[00:47:44] Ben: don't have the time. So I'll give the two that's what it says in the Bible. You don't have time. Give the extra 2%. There you go. 


[00:47:50] Gina: Oh my goodness. I think, I don't know, I think we, we've covered it. Yeah, 


[00:47:53] Ben: I briefly touched on this earlier, is like, we all have gone out into the community, there's the temptation to throw money at the problem. 


[00:48:00] Ultimately, that's not what Christ is asking us to do. He's asking us to be His hands and His feet. When 


[00:48:05] Cody: did you ever see Christ 


[00:48:06] Ben: throw money? 


[00:48:07] Gina: Oh, He flipped the tables and the money went flying. 


[00:48:10] Cody: Does 


[00:48:10] Ben: that 


[00:48:10] Cody: count? Uh, no. 


[00:48:12] Ben: And you'll remember there was a point. Where Jesus is sitting and dining with his disciples and there's a woman who comes in and she has this expensive perfume and she breaks it and she pours it all over Jesus feet and she's crying on his feet and wiping up the tears with her hair and kissing his feet. 


[00:48:28] Gina: And Judas is like, what? 


[00:48:29] Ben: Yeah, and Judas is like, well, you could have totally sold that and used that money and given it to the poor. And Jesus is like, what? No, that's stupid. She's done a beautiful thing. Don't insult her for it. Like she was a 


[00:48:46] Cody: Get behind me, Satan! That was Peter, not Judas. 


[00:48:50] Ben: No, it was definitely Judas. 


[00:48:52] Gina: If the perfume was oil of nard, I have some if you would like. 


[00:48:55] Ben: I've, I've always wanted to know what nard smells like. It usually smells amazing. It would be good to know. But yeah, Technically, Judas was right, though the Bible also stresses the point that he actually was just hoping to help himself to the purse. 


[00:49:09] And I think this kind of goes to what you're talking about, Gina, with the heart posture. Yes, technically the words he's saying weren't wrong. Technically, you could have sold it and given the money to the poor, but one, Judas's heart posture wasn't correct to begin with, and thus the money probably wouldn't have gone to the right place anyway. 


[00:49:27] Well, there was a better use for that money anyway, which was exactly what she used it for. Like, she used it to show love to the creator of the universe. I don't think there's any greater use for money than that. And that's ultimately what we're doing with our service to begin with. We're showing love to Christ. 


[00:49:43] And we're doing it through our acts of service to other people. 


[00:49:46] Cody: Yeah, and there's lots of stories like that in the Bible. There's the lady who brought the small tithe into the church, but that was all she had. And 


[00:49:55] Gina: the widow's alms or widow's mites. That's what they're called. Widow mites. 


[00:49:59] Cody: Something. Yeah. 


[00:50:00] Ben: It was practically nothing, but real quick, before we move on, I think it's important to go back on something that, that we'd mentioned briefly. 


[00:50:10] There is the verse that says, test me in this. and see if I don't open the floodgates of heaven. I believe that's the way the verse goes. This is one of the few times where the Bible is telling you to test God in something. And what I'm not suggesting that you go out and say, well, I'm going to get my 10%, but if I don't get anything back, I swear this is the last time I'm doing it. 


[00:50:32] No, it does mean that going into this whole tithing thing, if you're new to the church, you're probably thinking, okay. Money is tight right now. And with the times that we're in right now, yes, obviously money is tight for everybody. And if you're doing your best to dot every I and cross every T and you're doing your best with a budget that you have, and you're trying to make sure you don't have any excess anywhere. 


[00:50:56] The idea of sacrificing 10 percent of it each and every week to the church, and presumably you're not getting anything back for it. Like that may seem to be a tough pill to swallow. And the fact that God is asking you to do this may seem really hard. What God is saying is I understand that I understand. 


[00:51:14] It's difficult Test me in this. I promise you I will provide and I've heard so many stories about people who did approach Giving in the church with that feeling with that heart posture. It's not that you're going to be angry or indignant It's that you're curious and you're suffering and you're thinking. 


[00:51:32] Okay. I don't know if this is gonna work. I'm trusting you in this You And I'm giving you the 10%. 


[00:51:38] Gina: And the provision that he can give is not even always financial, like you're going to see things change. Like, Cody and I started tithing at our church when we moved to Florida, and our lives started to change. 


[00:51:57] And it wasn't because of the church, and it wasn't because of the pastors, and it wasn't because of the people. There were just shifts that God has made, like, one degree shifts every so often that have totally changed the outcome of our lives. And they have gradually increased provision financially for us. 


[00:52:18] Because when we started tithing, we couldn't really afford to tithe, but God doesn't promise that he's going to repay you in dollars. And if your expectation is, well, I'm going to give this amount and if I don't get it back, you know, there's going to be an issue. It's funny. We have a friend that was going through a really hard time and their family tithed and it was an amount that they could not afford, but it was the full 10%. 


[00:52:44] And within a week, they literally down to the last cent had it all back. Because somebody tipped generously so God is funny and he will sometimes surprise you but that's not the standard case And I don't think like you you can't go in being like, oh, well, I'm gonna give it but I really need to see this back 


[00:53:05] Ben: Yeah, it's not about getting the money back what it is. 


[00:53:09] God is promising you that he is going to make it worth it And that isn't why you tithe. But he's saying, you will see that I will do it. 


[00:53:17] Gina: He knows that we struggle with money. 


[00:53:18] Ben: Yeah. 


[00:53:19] Gina: That's why he tells us we can't love money and him. 


[00:53:22] Cody: Lots of the Bible is about the relationship of us and money. It's harder for a rich man to go to heaven than it is for, what was it, the camel to pass through the eye of the needle? 


[00:53:34] Eye of the needle, yeah. And that has a lot of rabbit hole theological implications to it, but there's a point to that and I think tithing is, again, going back to the heart posture of it and putting your reliance on God and something that in American culture anyway, everybody tries to handle themselves. 


[00:53:57] Most of America fails because the debt load of the average American is like 40, 000, which is crazy. And it's just poor management, and it's not to say that 


[00:54:12] Gina: It's not condemning. 


[00:54:13] Cody: Yeah, it's not condemning, but it is an area that everybody struggles to Because it is our livelihood, it's our way of life will change potentially. 


[00:54:27] Our, we might not be able to buy that Frappuccino on Tuesday and Wednesday now, if we give the tithes. That's 


[00:54:34] Gina: what you're saying we do on Tuesdays and Wednesdays. 


[00:54:37] Ben: Well, money is tied to so many different things in our lives. It's tied to other people's perceptions of us. It's tied to our well being. In so many ways, in our own personal health, in our diet, in our exercise, to some extent, if you're paying for gym memberships and whatnot, it's tied to our ability to move around because you probably have a car payment. 


[00:54:58] You probably have insurance on your car. You probably have fuel that you need to pay for that car. Unless you're electric, even then you have your electric bill. You have your comfort. It's tied to because AC is something that was invented and is a wonderful invention, but doesn't happen naturally. And so you got to pay money for that. 


[00:55:16] And you pay money for your lights and you pay money for all sorts of comforts, things that you may not necessarily need, but we all agree are things that make our life better. And so to release our hold on that is in essence, releasing our hold on our lives. 


[00:55:33] Gina: Only the first 10%. 


[00:55:34] Ben: Yes, but the idea is that you're admitting to God, Look, you have authority over all of this, and you're asking me for 10. 


[00:55:41] You may ask me for more. And that's the reality. God may ask you for more. And I think that's something that everybody knows when they start tithing. It's like, okay, I have given you nothing up to this point. You're asking me for 10. Okay, I'll give you the 10, but what happens if you ask me for more? And the answer is you have to give it. 


[00:55:57] And that's a tough pill to swallow, I'll admit. That's a very tough pill to swallow. That's a tough pill I had to swallow more than once. I was a broke college student once, and I was paying 10 percent off of basically nothing. But that was that nothing I had to live on. You have to trust God really hard when you're suddenly sacrificing something that is very tangible. 


[00:56:16] Like, it's one thing to just say, Yes, I trust God with my life. It's another thing entirely to trust Him with your finances, which is your actual life. 


[00:56:24] Gina: Thank you so much for taking the time to listen to our podcast today. If you liked what you heard, please feel free to subscribe and share and leave a positive review. 


[00:56:34] And if you would like to connect with us on social media, you can do so on Instagram and Facebook at the Logic of God. You can also send us an email at dot the Logic of god@gmail.com. Thanks again for listening. We hope you have a great day.