Relationship With Church Part 2

[00:00:00] Cody: Hi, thank you for tuning in to the Logic of God podcast. I'm Cody. 


[00:00:11] Gina: I'm Gina. 


[00:00:12] Cody: And I'm Ben. If you're returning, thank you for coming back, and if you are a new guest, welcome. 


[00:00:25] Gina: I think the last point I want to make on tithing is the idea of giving in secret. 


[00:00:31] Ben: What, you don't give it in public? You don't walk in front of the church congregation with a big old check, you just flap in front of everybody? 


[00:00:36] Gina: Don't you know I give in hundreds? 


[00:00:39] Ben: Exclusively. That's what Everybody, she walks up and she has this wad of hundreds and she just counts them out. 


[00:00:45] Gina: I flick them one at a time. She 


[00:00:47] Ben: licks her finger in between each one. Maintains eye contact with the pastor. 


[00:00:54] Gina: And then if he gives me a high five, I throw an extra hundred. We have a small. Group. And I say we lightly because I don't do a whole lot to contribute, but Cody leads and, and has this group of people that go out and like fill needs basically. 


[00:01:11] Anytime that there's a need, we try to fill it. And one of the rules in this group is. No selfies, no social media, no talking about it. Like we're not going to go speak people's business or share what we've done. The only reason that we would share it with anybody would be just for accountability purposes and staying informed and making sure that everybody's safe. 


[00:01:34] But outside of that, like the first time that you guys met Cody, you announced like, we're not doing selfies. We're not doing social media. And a lot of the people never came back. And I just, I have this really strong belief in giving in secret and the people in your church that are the quietest, but the most consistent in attendance, those are probably the most generous with their time and their money, and they don't talk about it at all. 


[00:02:01] And so if you're expecting your church to acknowledge the 10%, Or if you're expecting to be able to like brag about that or somehow share about it or subtly included in conversations or just talk about your wealth. In my opinion, it's a huge disservice to what you're trying to do and what God is asking you to do. 


[00:02:23] And if you can't give in secret, then your pride is a major issue. So I don't know if you have any thoughts, but I just, it drives me crazy at Christmas. It's part of why I'm on, I'm not on social media right now is like anytime there's a holiday or like a catastrophe in another place, it's like everybody's either posting, let's pray for such and such, or look what I just did, or my family adopted another family for Christmas. 


[00:02:50] Like you don't understand that what you're saying by posting pictures of all these presents is like, look at these poor people we're helping. Like that's horrible. It's horrible. You're intention is wrong, and you can't meaningfully give out loud, I don't think. 


[00:03:04] Ben: Yeah, the focus is being shifted from Christ and onto you. 


[00:03:08] I agree with you 100%. And there is, I wish I could remember the chapter in verse, I'm sure you know what I'm talking about, where there's the Talking about the, the, the rabbis who go out and they have their phylacteries on their foreheads and they're wailing out in the open and, you know, their tassels are long so that everyone can count them and, you know, it's very clear that they're following the, the laws of Moses to a T and they're doing this not because they want the Lord to be honored. 


[00:03:33] They do it because they want everyone to see them and recognize them as the holy people that they are. But, to play devil's advocate for a second, the Bible also does talk about us being the city on the hill. We're supposed to be the light that's not covered. We're supposed to be visible, so how would you reconcile us being visible and us being a light to the world with doing things in secret? 


[00:03:57] Gina: So, there's a guy that lives in our community that is known for helping single moms. He walks around with the fat roll of hundreds, and he's been seen throwing money in people's laps. And he'll wander around in group settings and have really half hearted conversations. I can't tell you how many times he's gotten my name wrong. 


[00:04:22] And I've personally helped him help other people, like done shopping for him and stuff. So how I can tell a difference between a genuinely kind hearted, generous person who's serving the Lord or somebody who wants attention and is extremely self consumed, Is just the authenticity in conversation. 


[00:04:43] Somebody who knows who I am and asks about me remembers that I have children maybe even knows some of my struggles and checks on me and says, how are you doing? As opposed to somebody who's like, Oh, Hey Tina, how's it going? Okay. Bye. Like. You can tell because they are the salt in the light, and that has way more to do with how you're treating other people and how you interact with people than it does how deep your pockets are and how obvious that is. 


[00:05:10] Cody: I don't think I need to add to that, but I want to. Being the salt in the light or the beacon on the hill, like, there's a way to do that. From a community as like a congregational standpoint, the whole rather than individually. And I think that's important, but also the posture of, uh, it goes back to the heart posture thing. 


[00:05:35] If you're doing it for recognition, you're doing it for the wrong reason. If you're doing it to be the beacon, to be the light, you're not going to worry about what angle they get you on for the picture. If there is a picture or posing with this. Like, I hate seeing all of these pictures of the handing of the gifts over to the children or something. 


[00:05:56] There's ways you can go about it where you protect the identities and 


[00:06:01] Gina: the situation and 


[00:06:04] Cody: still make your case stone of what's going on. 


[00:06:08] Gina: You can describe a need. Without being too specific 


[00:06:12] Cody: and like with my group like the guys that go out I will brag about them to the pastor or like if they just kick butt There's this one lady in the community who had a pipe burst and you know, I'm terrible with plumbing So I didn't want to get involved. 


[00:06:27] So one of the guys jumped in went out that same day took it up So I was like this guy did awesome and it's okay for me to brag about the My brothers and sisters in Christ, it's when it becomes, I'm bragging about myself that it becomes bad. 


[00:06:41] Ben: Yeah, whoever exalts themselves will be humbled, but whoever humbles themselves will be exalted. 


[00:06:47] And I think, yeah, what you guys are saying is very true and it's backed up with Scripture. It's the idea that if you are humbling yourself, if you are making what's happening, what you're doing about the act itself and about glorifying God, God will glorify you. And most of the time it will be through the people you're helping. 


[00:07:04] Like, I guarantee you all the people that we've helped, they know who we are. And while they may not know our names, they know the Church was behind it, and for me, that's enough. I don't really care if any of the people that we've helped know who I am, but they do know that the Church was the one who helped them. 


[00:07:18] They know that it was Christ who is behind our motivation. And that's ultimately the biggest thing that we should want to do. Not for our names to go out there and not for our names to be blessed or people to think that we're good people. This 


[00:07:31] Gina: really flows well into the conversation about serving because this isn't something that our church has. 


[00:07:37] instigated. This is our own kind of decision and our own heart telling us through communion with the Lord that this is something we should be doing. And it's a gap that we've seen. And so I like kind of segueing into this, if that's okay, because We've talked a little about serving within the church, but this is an example of serving outside of the church. 


[00:07:59] And I think one of the struggles I had when Cody and I had conversations about starting this group was that it felt almost disloyal because then we weren't serving in our own church in the more conventional ways. And we serve, like, enough to be a full time job at our church. So it's not that we're not involved. 


[00:08:19] It's just creating another, like, subunit outside of the church felt a little disloyal. And I think that we should talk about that a little bit because people can get really tied up in their identity within their church, and then they lose whatever their calling is. And I put a little sentence, I put filling a need versus fulfilling a calling. 


[00:08:40] And so I really would like to talk about that with you guys if you're up for it. 


[00:08:44] Cody: Absolutely. 


[00:08:45] Gina: Any thoughts? 


[00:08:46] Cody: Explain what you mean behind fulfilling a calling or need. 


[00:08:50] Gina: So, and, and I also segues into the second page of our notes, but my opinion is that all people, especially Christians, are called to a certain type of ministry. 


[00:09:01] It doesn't have to be vocational ministry, but it is a type of ministry and it ties in with our spiritual gifts and it ties in with God's plan for our lives. And this was one thing that Cody and I saw a gap. We realized it wasn't something that the church was equipped to handle, especially immediately, and there were immediate needs. 


[00:09:20] And so Cody created this group and got stuff going and it became great. And at first it seemed like, The pastors maybe were a little hesitant, but then as it started to grow, it's now become like praised and it's a good thing and the pastors know they can count on us to take care of things when the church can't. 


[00:09:38] And that's a beautiful thing, but it begs the question, at what point am I a warm body that's just placeholder? Or like with the calling, how do I determine where I'm called and what God wants me to do in my church or in my community? 


[00:09:54] Cody: There's certain things that the Bible tells us to do. It tells us, as Christians, we should take care of orphans, we should take care of widows, we should take care of elderly, and disabled 


[00:10:08] Gina: people, 


[00:10:09] Cody: and outreach to prisons and prisons. 


[00:10:13] that way. So those would be a great place to start for an outreach or a call because that is pretty prescribed to every Christian. That is a heart posture that you should have as a Christian. So if you're struggling to find an area to serve or don't feel like you just want to be that warm body holding the door open, and there's plenty of people doing that, and it's not a need of church, you're just there, you could start looking at. 


[00:10:42] Those places and where you can serve, and I don't see it a lot anymore, but I remember growing up going to nursing homes and doing a lot of outreach in that way, and not necessarily going there to evangelize, but just to be with people and to have a community with kind of people who are locked up almost they, a lot of them don't have freedom to go. 


[00:11:05] So that that's a good place to start. Uh, you can get a lot of wisdom that way too, but yeah, those almost all communities have any of those outreaches that they could do. 


[00:11:16] Ben: Absolutely. And it's important to remember that while you may be doing something outside of your small C Church, you're not doing it outside of the big C Church. 


[00:11:25] It's like Gina said in our last session when she outlined very well what the actual church is. There is your individual denomination, the individual building that you go to. But in the end, we are all a member of Christ who is ultimately the big C church. When you're acting in Christ's name, you're acting on behalf of the church. 


[00:11:45] And there are going to be times where it's going to feel like you really should be doing something through an organized church. And to be fair, there are times where that's definitely a good idea. A lot of the times they will have infrastructure set up. to where you aren't going to be starting at something from ground zero. 


[00:12:01] And a lot of the times it will be something you can do through the church you're already attending. Not always. There are certain outreach programs that you're really only going to find at certain churches that are closer to the communities that are being affected by something. Certain things that address like homeless people and street evangelism and things like that, or even people who are victims of abuse. 


[00:12:19] As not every single church has an outreach program for those kinds of people. And there are some that will house women who've been affected through human trafficking or something like that. So if you're looking to help in those areas, there are absolutely individual small C churches that can help you through that and we'll be very glad to take your help. 


[00:12:37] But that's not, and 


[00:12:38] Gina: also ministry organizations that are not churches. 


[00:12:40] Ben: Absolutely. And. Yeah, there are even organizations like Salvation Army or the Red Cross or any number of other organizations where you can volunteer through. But remember, no matter what you're doing, if you're doing it for Christ, you are representing the church. 


[00:12:54] And so it can be done through something like a secular organization even. It doesn't necessarily have to be through a church, but no matter what, you are representing the church. And so if it's done in his name, he's going to accept it. He will accept it on your behalf. And in the end. If you fall, this is the harder thing to accept. 


[00:13:11] If you fall, if you mess up, if you give in to sin or to temptation while you're going out and you're doing things in His name, people will see that and it will be a mark against Christ. 


[00:13:22] Gina: That's one thing, wow, that's such a good point because, like, I have a sibling that's transgender and they work in like a little restaurant. 


[00:13:32] And so many people go in, like, all high and mighty, like, Oh, I'm a Christian and you're an abomination. Like, nobody ever got saved being called an abomination. Like, you might feel really convicted about a certain kind of sin, but that does not give you the, like, authority to go up to somebody and be like, You're a sinner! 


[00:13:54] Get the log out of your eye. 


[00:13:56] Cody: And we're called to challenge our brothers and sisters that way. Corinthians tells us that people outside the church are the responsibility of Jesus to judge, not ours. 


[00:14:07] Gina: We have a lot more influence than we give ourselves credit for. And that falls into the call to leadership, having the authority or the ability to influence other people and like lead them to make a decision or to come to a conclusion. 


[00:14:24] It's a very powerful thing, and if you look at the examples set by Jesus in scripture, he, for the most part, with people, he was very direct and honest. He had moments where he was really funny, and also where he was really aggressive. But he did everything so lovingly and so gently, like, he talked to so many people who were committing all kinds of sin, and not once was he like, well, you'll deal with me later. 


[00:14:53] Ben: Yeah, when there was the woman who was, he actually dealt with multiple women who were guilty of adultery, and there was the one woman who had been married. I don't know, like six times, and the guy that she was living with at the time wasn't even her husband. And that was scandalous. That would have been scandalous now, even with things as they are today. 


[00:15:10] Imagine how it would have been at the time of Christ. That would have been absolutely insane. For someone to be married multiple times and be living with someone who they're not married to. But, Jesus was very kind to this person. And he was kind to the woman who was going to be stoned for adultery. The harshest words that he ever had were for people who knew better. 


[00:15:28] You don't call a doctor in for someone who's already well, you call a doctor in for someone who's sick. But for the people who claim to be well, but are sicker than everyone else, you have very harsh words, because they don't know what they're talking about, and they'll make someone twice the son of hell that they are. 


[00:15:42] Pardon my words, but that's scriptural. I've never 


[00:15:43] Cody: heard that, but I like that. 


[00:15:46] Ben: So, yeah, it is important for us to remember that Christ's harshest words were for the people who were already a part of the church. who are already people who claim to know God. So for those who know, more is going to be asked of you and the higher the standard is going to be for you. 


[00:16:02] But for people who aren't even part of the church, how could you expect them to know? 


[00:16:06] Gina: Well, and to go out and wound them like intentionally. Yeah. Or shame them like you're not being a very good image bearer 


[00:16:13] Cody: that goes to new christians, too Like people who just come in the church one You don't know if anybody's walk as soon as they walk through the door, but if they're even Affirming that they're christians and they're new christians newly baptized. 


[00:16:29] I've seen a lot of people Basically instantly expect that person's life to do a 180 Sanctification is a long process. It's a 


[00:16:38] Gina: lifelong process 


[00:16:39] Cody: Sanctification is basically the purification of our humanity to be more reflective of Christ. It's basically us becoming more like Christ, if that's how I would describe it. 


[00:16:54] It's a big word, so I wanted to break up the Christianese a bit, but sanctification is a process, and it's not an instantaneous thing. So, grace and love is what we're told to have. There is a time for rebuking and you bring it to the pastor, you bring it multiple people in and then to follow the way scripture tells you to deal with people who are above reproach or beyond that for themselves. 


[00:17:21] But generally speaking, that's not the point that it gets to when people are repent and you shall be saved, you sinner. 


[00:17:29] Gina: Yeah, no. It really, it breaks my heart, especially like with the LGBT community, it really breaks my heart that they are received by churches with so much hatred because sin is sin. So like the man who's sitting in the church congregation that beats his wife and kids and then like the lady that's addicted to pornography, they're sinners too. 


[00:17:55] And we're not shouting in their faces and accusing them of being an abomination. So I really struggle with the attitude of certain churches and certain people to like spew hate on like one specific demographic when we're all in a demographic of being sinners. 


[00:18:12] Cody: And this is not affirming it by any means. 


[00:18:14] Gina: No, it's just, if somebody were to come up to you and they were like, listen, I know what you did last night, whatever it was that you did that was sinful. And they were like, you're going to hell. I just wanted to make sure you were aware of that. Like, first of all, you already know that you feel bad about whatever you did that was wrong. 


[00:18:34] Like you don't need somebody coming into your life and accusing you. And then like, second of all, you're not going to change. You're going to stay trapped in this cycle because you feel so much shame about it. If somebody were to come to you and say, listen, I know what you did last night and I just want you to know you have hope for the future and there's more for you and like I can show you where to go to feel whole again. 


[00:18:58] That's going to get you way further than saying, you're an abomination and you're going to hell. Like, that's my opinion, but I think it's worth saying because as a person who joined Christianity as an adult and saw a lot of sermons that spewed a lot of hate at different churches along the way, and then knowing how some new believers have fallen or some really good leaders have fallen, it doesn't, Go without saying that you have to be really careful how you treat other people whether you're tipping them in a restaurant or Accusing them of a sin like it's you have to treat everybody with consistent love and respect 


[00:19:33] Cody: And I think that goes into the next section really 


[00:19:35] Ben: well And 


[00:19:36] Gina: did you have something you wanted to say 


[00:19:37] Ben: well real quick setting Transgenderism and homosexuality aside for a second my brother back when he was still alive He was involved in a relationship with a married woman. 


[00:19:48] And this was something that Obviously I was against and my dad was against pretty much the whole family was against there was a period early on where it basically came up in every single conversation that we had and things turned very hostile and very angry and There were a lot of things that were said that were very damaging and they especially drove a wedge between my brother and my father Transcribed Over time, things shifted and my brother knew our stance on what he was doing. 


[00:20:17] We didn't support it, but eventually we softened toward him and we didn't have to spell out how we felt about his relationship with this married woman. But we did make it clear that we loved him no matter what. And we tried to have fun with him, to show him that we loved him and to show him that we appreciated him. 


[00:20:35] And eventually his relationship with my dad got repaired. But. In the end, there was still a wedge between us and that wedge did drive him to move off to Daytona to be closer to this woman. That is ultimately where he died. And it was in part because of this relationship. If he had left it aside, he wouldn't have ended up losing his life. 


[00:20:56] It wasn't directly because of that. I don't want to go into all the details and I don't really have the right to, but the point is that the wedge didn't come because of us and what we said and what we did. At first it was. And that was a mistake, and if you ask my dad, he'll even say that that wasn't good. 


[00:21:12] Eventually, he knew that we loved him, and he knew that we cared about him. But the fact that he was involved in a sinful lifestyle was the thing that drove the wedge, and he was in full control of that wedge. And so he was the one who drove himself away. We didn't drive him away. I think it's important to know that, like Gina, you said, We don't have to spell it out every single time someone's around us who is living in a life that is sinful, that the Bible says is not right. 


[00:21:40] We can show these people love, and we should. We need to. In the end, if there's going to be a wedge, it needs to be something that they see is something that is in their control and is in their lives. It shouldn't be something that you do actively to push them away. If they are pushed away, it should be because they choose to, not because you were pushing them. 


[00:21:58] Gina: Definitely. Thanks for sharing that. 


[00:22:01] Ben: No problem. 


[00:22:02] Cody: Yeah. No, thank you for that. And like, all of this goes into the next section of leadership, because I think this shows the true integrity of a leader and how discipleship should look. Because if you are just spewing terrible things at somebody. That's not discipleship by any means. 


[00:22:25] You're not 


[00:22:26] Gina: discipleship? 


[00:22:27] Cody: Getting there. I'm sorry. You 


[00:22:30] Gina: know me, I'm always like, what's the new believer gonna think? 


[00:22:33] Cody: But, when that new believer comes in, or that person that you see every day who you know is actively sinning, and you sit with them and talk with them and get a relationship with them, and you carry that burden with them, and help them overcome whatever is conquering their life, whatever sin is conquering them at that time, and you help them combat that to win that. 


[00:23:02] battle. That is the true sign of discipleship. 


[00:23:07] Gina: Brings to mind the image of the man that had to help Jesus carry his cross. So, I didn't even think about this until, like about sharing this until tonight, but I want to share like a story about becoming a leader in the church and how to determine If that's really something that you're called to, because I think mega churches do a really good job of kind of glamorizing ministry and making it look like the natural progression of serving in a church would be, you start out as a new person and you get connected and you might figure out like one of your spiritual gifts and then you're in a group and then suddenly you're leading a team serving and then you're. 


[00:23:51] invited to join staff for some reason. And that seems to be like the expectation in a lot of mega churches is like, well, if I'm a high capacity volunteer, then I might be called to lead in a church or be in ministry vocationally. And I think it's just a really unhealthy dynamic to have in a church personally. 


[00:24:14] I don't know if you have any thoughts on that. 


[00:24:16] Cody: Yeah, no, I think the mega churches a big Uh, component of that, but 


[00:24:21] Gina: I guess what's a megachurch, I'm sorry, 


[00:24:24] Cody: megachurch, I'd say it's any congregation above 500 people, 


[00:24:28] Gina: like multi site kind of churches. 


[00:24:31] Cody: That's a different, like, I don't know your average church I think is what, 75 people or something like that. 


[00:24:36] I 


[00:24:36] Gina: think it's actually like 60. 


[00:24:38] Cody: So The average church is well below, maybe mega church you can, you can go as like 2000 or more or something like that. 


[00:24:47] Gina: It's a big church. It's 


[00:24:47] Cody: a big church. That's a lot of people. That's a lot of church members, congregants. And they, they push it because the need for, serving and like the need to have those high level volunteers. 


[00:25:01] So it is pushed a lot, but it also gives this false persona that everyone's calling is ministry, full time ministry, which is not. There's not a lot of full time, besides the Levites in the Old Testament, there is not a whole lot of people who didn't have Paul made tense on the side, like, Paul was one of the most active ministries and missionaries that we see in scripture, and he still had side hustles. 


[00:25:30] Like he, he still did other stuff. So to say that your 100 percent calling is ministry, I think that calling is a lot smaller than the number of people that are in the church right now leading or pastoring. Do 


[00:25:44] Gina: you have any thoughts, Ben? 


[00:25:46] Ben: So, I would say for most people, leadership actually starts much lower than at the top. 


[00:25:50] Like, the temptation is for a lot of these discussions to start, Okay, you're at the top, you're the pastor, you're the leader of the flock. Like, most of the time, your leadership starts fairly low. So, starting a Bible study, for instance, is actually a great place that a lot of people start. And a similar question rises there, like, What is the criteria for you being the leader of a Bible study? 


[00:26:10] Should you be someone who's very secure in your faith at that point? Can he be a person who has questions? Like, what is the standard for someone who is just leading something like a Bible study? But for me, I would say that you can absolutely be a new believer and start a Bible study. In fact, I would say that they make some of the best people to start Bible studies because they're starting things with such fresh eyes that they will ask you questions you hadn't thought would be asked. 


[00:26:34] Like, you didn't even think to ask them. Like, if you've been a Like, there's certain things that you just take as read, and then a new Christian will ask you a question that's so fundamental that you think, What? Actually, I have no clue. I'm like, Koda, you and I actually go to a Bible study that's run by a fairly new Christian, and he approaches everything with, like, such a sense of wonder. 


[00:26:55] Like, it's a wide eyed, childlike wonder that he, And he looks at everything, and he's like, I want to know more about this, and I want to know more about this, and I want to know about the history, and I want to know about what the Bible says, but what is the Bible actually saying about this? And is there more history, and is that relevant today? 


[00:27:10] And yeah, so I would say that for certain areas of leadership, and I do consider that to be a form of leadership, yes, you absolutely can be someone who's not perfect, who's fairly rough around the edges, fairly young and not very experienced, and then start into that specific realm of leadership. From there, things do grow. 


[00:27:28] And when we get to the higher levels of leadership, That is something that's very time consuming, absolutely. I agree, it's not something that is going to consume 100 percent of your time. But in a sense, it still does. Like, you are bringing Christ into everything that you do. So, even in the realm of the job that you have. 


[00:27:46] I find that people who are leaders in the church frequently are also leaders in other realms. and you're still representing the church. And I think that's the hardest thing that a leader in the church has to accept. It's the fact that this isn't a hat you put on and take off. It's like, you're not here on Sunday, and then everyone sees you and is like, oh great, he's got the preacher hat, takes it off, and now he's just Phil. 


[00:28:08] It's like, hey, it's Phil the preacher, and then it's Phil the regular dude, and we have different standards for both. No, you're always that guy. To your entire congregation, and the second anyone at your work, your job, finds out that you're a leader in the church, suddenly now you are Phil the pastor. 


[00:28:22] Everyone is going to see you that way. So you have to be Phil the Pastor 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Even though you aren't Phil the Pastor 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. And so, there are different ways of handling that. Gina, I know there are some people who met you back when you were doing your other podcast. 


[00:28:39] For those of you who don't know, Gina is actually a celebrity. She's done a few podcasts. 


[00:28:42] Gina: Oh, stop 


[00:28:43] Ben: it. But there are folks who had a certain image of who you were. 


[00:28:46] Gina: Yeah. 


[00:28:47] Ben: And I'm sure there are plenty of people who have images of us, who we are and who we are outside of this podcast. And honestly, I think we try to act as we really are on this podcast, but we can't be 100%. 


[00:28:58] Cody: Extremely flawed. 


[00:29:00] Ben: I yell 


[00:29:00] Cody: a lot. 


[00:29:02] Ben: We are different people, not vastly different people in the way we present ourselves on this podcast, but obviously there are flaws that don't come out in this format that you would find very quickly If you were to meet us in person, we are flawed people and you have to understand your pastor is as well, but your pastor also needs to understand that everyone is looking to him, to you, if you're a pastor for guidance. 


[00:29:24] They're looking to you as the standard for the highest point of what a Christian can be. And that's something that's outlined in 1 Timothy chapter 3 verses 1 through 7. It's talking about an overseer, essentially what a pastor would be. And it says, Here is a trustworthy saying. If anyone sets his heart on being an overseer, or a pastor if you like, he desires a noble task. 


[00:29:45] Now the overseer must be above reproach. The husband of but one wife, Temperate, self controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money, he must manage his own family well, and see that his children obey him with proper respect, after all, if anybody does not know how to manage his own family, How can he take care of God's church? 


[00:30:10] He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil's trap. That is a very high bar. And it's something you'll note, that's not something that you just do at your church. 


[00:30:28] Those are qualities that you have outside the church before you even consider becoming an overseer, becoming a pastor. It's an absurdly high bar. So yeah, like you were saying, if you want to become a pastor, you have to seriously consider why it is you want to do this. 


[00:30:46] Gina: So I took a job at our church for about a year. 


[00:30:50] As they like retail operations person. And one of the things that I learned was that it didn't matter if I was just making the coffee, people thought that I was on the same level as some like holy pastor person. And it didn't matter what I was doing or where I was. I couldn't. Take two steps without people stopping me and wanting to talk about things and they would tell me the most like unexpected pieces of information that I had no need to know and they would just share these things and be super vulnerable and ask my opinion and ask my advice and It's just become really obvious to me that people like desperately need somebody to talk to And they desperately need to be led and to be guided, and it's not good enough for them to sit through a sermon. 


[00:31:38] They want a personal relationship. I think they're confusing that personal relationship with a pastor with their personal relationship with God, because you can truly unburden yourself through prayer to God and feel so much better. But there's something about confession. People love to confess and, and that was one of the hardest things about being in a position of leadership in my church was just like the volume of people that needed me all the time. 


[00:32:08] And that like, Not even being in a pastoral role, having that amount of responsibility was a huge weight. And it, it wasn't like burdensome because I didn't want to help. It was just like seeing these gaps for these poor people and, and wanting to help them and not really feeling equipped to help them and not being in a role that was appropriate to help them. 


[00:32:30] It was really challenging and Normal, everyday layman Christians are not trained on identifying who the right person to talk to is, or if a pastor is truly trustworthy, and I've gotten really bad advice from pastors. Like I've gotten advice from pastors that if I had taken, I would be dead right now. So I think that goes back to one of the notes I put, guard your heart and do not lay your pearls before swine. 


[00:32:55] Like how do you discern who you can trust? That ties into leadership quite a bit. And you have to be trustworthy in the leadership position, and you have to be willing to ask for help, too. I also took that job with bad intentions, so not like nefarious intentions, but prideful intentions. 


[00:33:14] Cody: You just wanted all the free coffee. 


[00:33:16] Gina: I don't even drink coffee. 


[00:33:18] Cody: If you're looking to be a leader in any capacity, whether it's a group leader, whether it's a certain modality inside the church, leader. or if it's a pastor leadership, there is an immense weight that comes with that, that you should take very seriously because at the end of the day, it's not a sports game where you're, you're leading your team to victory. 


[00:33:45] And what's just a game at the end of the day, this is people's souls. This is how they relate with God. They're going to look up to you and expect that connection. And scripture tells us in Matthew, Many will come and say, Lord, And Jesus is going to say, depart from me because I never knew you. And James, it tells us that leadership comes with a more strict judgment. 


[00:34:11] We will be judged more strictly being in that leadership role. And advises people to not go into leadership because of that. And I think that's overlooked a lot too. Just the gravity of what leading people to Christ means. For 


[00:34:29] Ben: Yeah, I find that many of the leaders who end up true leaders who end up in their positions and deserve to be are people who go reluctantly. 


[00:34:38] They're people who understand the weight of the burden that they're taking on and they don't want it, but they see the need. And so they say, Lord, I don't want to do this, but I see I need to, and I know you're calling me to do it. So I'm stepping out in faith. Please help me do this. And there's a lot of humility in that approach. 


[00:34:55] I've also known younger pastors who. They were very proud and they felt like they had answers to every question and they felt like they were going to be able. To give the answers that would satisfy everyone because they'd heard tons of other messages before and they felt like all of the other people that they listened to wear old hat. 


[00:35:13] And it said all the things that every other pastor prior to them had said they were going to be the fresh new thing. They were going to speak, the words that no one else was willing to say. And then they got up on that stage and they were horrible. Or even worse, they were amazing, but God wasn't with them. 


[00:35:29] And there's a very famous case of that with Billy Graham. When he was first starting out, there was another guy who was preaching with him. I don't remember that guy's name and most people don't, but apparently early on this guy that was with Billy, everyone thought that he was going to be the guy. That everyone was going to come to know, everyone was going to follow, because he was charismatic, and he knew all the right words to say, and it seemed like he knew the Bible even better than Billy Graham did. 


[00:35:54] And Billy Graham, while he was very faithful, wasn't quite as experienced or wasn't quite as good in the early days. But eventually the two paths for the two men diverged, and the one guy became an atheist, and he completely fell away from the church. And his fall away, he brought a bunch of people with him. 


[00:36:09] Like I said earlier, you become twice the child of hell as he is. When you follow the wrong leader, you fall even harder than they do. And that's your responsibility as a leader. If you're taking that on, recognize that we've said many times, you should not look to your leader like this. You shouldn't treat that person as Christ. 


[00:36:28] Christ is Christ. We are following Christ. These people are trying to shepherd you to understand Christ better. But understand as a leader, Most people aren't going to see that. They're going to look to you for answers. They're going to look to you as the beacon, as that city on the hill. And if that hill collapses, the city does too. 


[00:36:47] Cody: As a leader, you should be trying to express how flawed you are to prevent that type of praise from other people. 


[00:36:56] Gina: It's a form of idolatry, really. 


[00:36:58] Cody: Yes. 


[00:36:59] Gina: Like if you're because if you think about like the celebrity like oh, I idolize such and such. They're so beautiful. They're so smart Whatever. They're so talented. 


[00:37:08] Like if you're putting your pastor in that position, that's idolatry You're idolizing a human being over God like and then to expect that person to be perfect The only one that was the only human being that was ever perfect was Jesus and we know that So why are we putting a person in that place? 


[00:37:25] Cody: In defensive driving, one of the things that they always tell you to do or not do is not look at what you're trying to avoid. 


[00:37:34] And I think the same thing can be applied to your pursuit of Christ. If you're looking to be just like your pastor, you're going to miss the mark. But if you're looking to be like Jesus, is where You'll prevail even if your pastor falls, or when your pastor falls, or fails you in one way, shape, or form. 


[00:37:57] That's when you will continue to carry on. Not when you're trying to be like some man, but when you're trying to be what God is calling you to be. 


[00:38:06] Gina: How would you encourage somebody to identify the desire for power and control over the gift of leadership? 


[00:38:13] Ben: So ultimately that comes down to the individual person. 


[00:38:17] The desire for power doesn't really come out of nowhere, it's typically something that you carry with you for most of your life. For me, I'm actually a person who really enjoys having power over other people. I've been open about this, it was one of the first things I talked about in the early episodes. 


[00:38:32] I enjoy knowledge, I enjoy having a degree of Control over people that knowledge gives me and so pride and all of the vices that come with it are the things that I've had to be very cognizant of. I've had to be very aware of the fact that a very dark path waits for me if I don't keep myself in check and if I don't keep humbling myself and remembering. 


[00:38:54] That in the end, Christ is the figurehead. Christ is the highest point. And I need to remember that no matter what, no matter how much knowledge I amass, in the end, I don't know very much. The man who knows the most in the world knows nothing next to Christ. But recognizing a lust for power versus a desire to lead. 


[00:39:11] Again, I find that most of the people who are true leaders are people who are reluctant. They're people who are called because God chooses them, not because they were born with an innate talent. And to be fair, there are some people involved in ministry who have that innate talent and are incredible orators. 


[00:39:28] But most of the time I find that the people who are really called to it, the people who have the most power, who God does the most with, just like in the Bible, are the people you wouldn't expect. It's just like Gideon. That's not a guy you would have expected. If you look at the list of judges. Every judge, every ruler that God chose, even coming up to the first kings of Israel. 


[00:39:48] The first king that God chose was Saul, and that was the king that Israel wanted. A strong man, a powerful man, a man who was a full head taller than everyone else, who could put all the rest of the kings of the world to shame, and then he put God to shame. He put God last. He did what he wanted as opposed to what God wanted. 


[00:40:04] And so God chose David as the second king for himself. And every single judge that you can find throughout the Bible, they were people who you wouldn't expect, who came out of nowhere. They didn't come from some royal line. They didn't have a history of being some kind of bard in a tavern who could enchant everybody with their music or whatever nonsense. 


[00:40:22] They were people who were farmers, who came from nowhere. Some of them were chosen at birth and some of them were chosen closer to the twilight years. One of them was a woman. The point is that God will choose his leaders where he chooses them. You can't predict where they're going to come from. And very often he chooses the people who are the least skilled so that his power and his will, his ability is the most clearly seen. 


[00:40:44] Gina: One thing that I've learned as a woman, speaking of females in leadership, is that comparison has been like the most poisonous thing that. I've observed in leadership within the church, especially among women, and it prevents us from feeling joy for other people when they receive a blessing or, um, a title or a job, but it also creates a certain level of insecurity within ourselves. 


[00:41:14] That forces us to hold on a little too tight to the role that we're in right now. And I think the best thing to realize in any form of leadership is that not only can it be taken away, but it can shift. And so while the tides might have brought in this important and impactful role for you in a season of your life, It can just as easily change into something that may be less impactful. 


[00:41:43] And I think it's just really important to lean into that and be obedient to that. Because if you're doing it in service to the Lord, the title and I think even sometimes the compensation and the competition aren't going to matter to you. And it's all about intention again. Try to avoid comparison. We're so, it's so ingrained in our culture, in our society, and we're all uniquely gifted. 


[00:42:08] And the way that you are gifted from the Lord spiritually, and also just in your normal everyday life talents and abilities, is going to differ from other people. And what's powerful and meaningful right now is going to change tomorrow. And that doesn't change your value as a human being. It doesn't change the impact that you've already had on God's kingdom. 


[00:42:27] And it doesn't change the fact that you've been a good and faithful servant. So holding on too tightly to those titles and to those positions of power and authority isn't going to do you any justice, any service. And honestly, it's just super dishonoring to the Lord. So that's my final spiel on that. 


[00:42:44] Ben: You bring up a very good point, Gina. 


[00:42:45] It was something I didn't even think to cover, and I don't want it to be a full afterthought, but I think it does definitely need to be talked about. There comes a point in every leader's life where they have to step down. Your time leading the church will end. I've known quite a few people now. I'm even related to one. 


[00:43:03] My father was heavily involved in leadership in the church that I came from in Wisconsin. It is very hard. To step down once you've tasted that, once you've lived as a leader for the church. And it's very hard to not see that as some kind of failing. I've known some people who've decided to hold on to it jealously because they think no one else can do it and it becomes about you and not about the position. 


[00:43:29] It is very hard to let go and to trust that this isn't a slight against you but it's God moving you on to another period of your life, just like you were talking about, Gina. It isn't that God doesn't trust you anymore, or that He doesn't love you, or that He doesn't have more in store for you. He's moving you on to another period of your life, another phase, another season. 


[00:43:49] There was a season where you had a specific job, a specific part of your body. And this is something that both of you talked about earlier. You are not fixed as an ear, you're not fixed as a mouth, you're not fixed as a nose on the body of Christ. At one time or another, you will be a different body part. 


[00:44:03] You can change. And God moving you from one part that seems more honorable to another part that doesn't seem as honorable, it's not wrong. No. No matter what, you are a part of the same body. We all have the honor of being a part of that body. And some parts that we find to be the most unpresentable are presented with a specific amount of dignity. 


[00:44:22] This is something that the Bible talks about. So, it is hard to let go. It is hard to find the time to say, you know what, I feel the Lord is telling me it's time to end this. To move on and let someone else take my position and it's hard to set your pride aside and say it's not about me And it's not about my ability There's nothing special about me. 


[00:44:43] What's special is Christ and that time please remember it really isn't about you It is about Christ and he loves you and he is still going to honor you. But now is the time to step down 


[00:44:56] Gina: Thank you so much for taking the time to listen to our podcast today. If you liked what you heard, please feel free to subscribe and share and leave a positive review. 


[00:45:05] And if you would like to connect with us on social media, you can do so on Instagram and Facebook at the Logic of God. You can also send us an email at Maine dot the Logic of god@gmail.com. Thanks again for listening. We hope you have a great day.