Why Are There So Many Doctrines?

[00:00:00] Cody: Hi, thank you for tuning in to the Logic of God podcast. I'm Cody. 


[00:00:14] Gina: I'm Gina. 


[00:00:15] Cody: And I'm Ben. You're returning. Thank you for coming back. And if you are a new guest, welcome. 


[00:00:33] Ben: We've covered finding a church. We've covered some of the different denominations. We haven't gone too deep in yet. Thank you But going from denominations and now into doctrines, what would you guys say is the reason for all the different doctrines that we have? Like, why are there so many different conflicting doctrines in Christianity? 


[00:00:52] I can understand some differences, but there are some that directly conflict with one another. 


[00:00:58] Gina: Satan. 


[00:01:00] And 


[00:01:00] Gina: I'm not being flippant. Like, I think there are certain things that get, idolized and attended to that are kind of off the beaten path and they make, make people feel good or give people a certain level of power or control. 


[00:01:15] But ultimately it deviates pretty far from what scripture tells us and what we know to be true. I 


[00:01:21] Cody: think there's lots of reasons. Maturity level of Christian, I think, plays a big role on how you interpret the Bible. And I think there's just a lot of poor hermeneutics and not, not necessarily a meaning to have bad Bible interpretations, but sanctification is a process. 


[00:01:41] You can't get it all right the first go around, so. 


[00:01:44] Gina: Unless you make your own version of the Bible. 


[00:01:46] Cody: Some people have. 


[00:01:47] Ben: We'll get to that. Don't get ahead of us. I will say there were times when I was younger where I believed very specific things because I would be going through the Bible and I'd see something and I would think, okay, that has to be 100 percent true. 


[00:01:59] And I think I know exactly what the Bible is saying. And then years later, I kind of softened on it. And then years later, after that, I may have changed my position again. I think the best example of that for me personally would be There's this idea taught in some Christian churches that once you are a Christian, you are just a Christian forever. 


[00:02:17] You can't possibly lose your salvation. Your name is written in the Lamb's Book of Life, and there is no eraser on that pen. That's what I was told. 


[00:02:24] It's in ink. 


[00:02:25] Ben: It's in ink. It's in permanent marker. There is no eraser. 


[00:02:30] Cody: What about whiteout? 


[00:02:31] Ben: Okay, maybe there might be whiteout. And oddly enough, there is a section, I think it was specifically for Moses, where he talks about his name being blotted out. 


[00:02:39] I can't remember who it was. I wish I could remember. But yeah, there is a passage in the Bible talking about The speaker's name being blotted out from the book of life. And that was something that I had read later. And that was something that another pastor had told me when I was talking to him about the subject. 


[00:02:54] And so that gave me pause. And then I also thought about, so there are different people who claim to be Christian and then went on to do horrible things. And we talked about Ravi Zacharias, and I have no doubt that there was a point in his ministry where he was genuine, but then eventually he started doing very terribly corrupt things. 


[00:03:12] And that does beg the question, is Ravi still saved? Now, ultimately his salvation is in the hands of God, but we can expand that out further and create the general question. Is it possible for you to fall away from salvation? Now, this isn't what the episode is specifically about. The point is, is that through different seasons in our lives, certain things will make sense to us, whether or not they're true. 


[00:03:32] And then as we move out of those seasons, New questions will be introduced to our thinking, and our minds are renewed, and we think about the same question differently, and that doesn't mean that we weren't right the first time. Sometimes we're led out of certain thinking. Another example of that would be homosexuality. 


[00:03:47] There was a point where I believed it was genuinely wrong when I was younger. I got older, then I thought, well, it doesn't really matter, and now I'm at the point I am in my life where I say, no, it does matter. But dogmatically angry. And that was not the right way to approach it. And so you can even go back to doctrines that you believed earlier, but you can approach them differently in a healthy way. 


[00:04:08] Gina: I agree with that. But let me ask a question because this is something that weighs on me a little bit. Just being a younger Christian than you guys, do you have to agree and adhere to all of the doctrine within your own Church, like your building church that you go to, not your big C church, or is it disloyal or does it not make sense to not agree? 


[00:04:32] What would be like an acceptable amount of disagreement to still qualify in that house as being that religion? If that makes sense. 


[00:04:44] Ben: It does. I think starting out, if you were to talk to, all of the members of an individual congregation, you would find that they actually do have disagreements. Not that the, I would even use SFIRMA term as disagreement, it's that there are certain questions that a number of members will have thought about and other members wouldn't have. 


[00:05:02] And so you ask them the question, and then on the spot, without really knowing, they'll give a specific answer. But then, the actual position of the church itself might be different, or the actual position of the pastor might be different from a lot of the members of his congregation. And that isn't to say that he's never taught about it before. 


[00:05:18] Sometimes there are newer members to the church, and sometimes there are, you know, sermons that you just don't remember. So, at the softest level, it's that you either just don't know, or you have questions on things that you don't remember. You may be leaning in a different direction from your church generally. 


[00:05:33] And so you can voice those concerns and you should voice those concerns as far as dramatic differences, like say you're going to a Calvinist church and you don't believe in Calvinism at all. Well, that's a pretty fundamental core principle there. And you may be right and they may be wrong, or they may be right and you may be wrong. 


[00:05:51] If you're going to be getting constantly in the pastor's face and saying that he's wrong, that's a problem, and you really need to find another church, but it's deeper than that, that's a personal issue. You should be able to have pretty deep disagreements on certain things, but still be able to get something out of the church and still be able to show respect. 


[00:06:09] It doesn't mean you should stay in the place. Because, yeah, if there is a fundamental thing taught by that church that you disagree with, you probably should find a church that agrees with the fundamental things that you believe. But that does also beg the question, how much challenging should you take to your own fundamental beliefs? 


[00:06:25] There are some people who get a question to their fundamentals and it shakes them to the point where they leave the church. And then there are other people who get questioned on their fundamentals and then they take that to heart and they think, okay, I really should have thought of this more. It does depend on the individual. 


[00:06:38] So, yeah, talking. To the people who may be listening, you really do need to know yourself. So yeah, if you're going to say a Baptist church right now, and then you're hearing this, you think, oh, I should really read up on what Baptists believe. And then you start looking at what your specific subgroup of Baptists believe. 


[00:06:53] And you think, oh, wow, I don't believe in any of this. Well, take the opportunity to actually ask your pastor why, why it is that the church is taking that position on it, and then walk it through. And you can be respectful about that. And you can even permanently disagree. He may not convince you of anything. 


[00:07:07] It's still okay. 


[00:07:08] Gina: I have a follow up. So, when a person says, I feel peace about this conviction or belief, is it sufficient to rely on that feeling to hold something as true? 


[00:07:26] Cody: Is that feeling conflicting with something the Bible says? 


[00:07:29] Gina: Well, this isn't for me personally, this is to make a point. 


[00:07:33] Cody: So, you know, if you read that adultery is a bad thing, and then you feel this great conviction to, you know, go sleep with somebody else, is that okay? 


[00:07:46] Gina: Well, no, that's not really what I'm referring to. It's more like, I feel that my salvation is secure forever. Or, I feel that God has predetermined the number of people going to heaven. Or, I feel that my interpretation of this scripture is correct, and therefore it is. The reason I'm asking is because of the differences between denominations in Christianity as well as other churches and cults and things and how it's all deviated. 


[00:08:16] Cody: It's a really tough question because everybody has that, you know. Has their own conviction about a belief. Otherwise, it wouldn't be their belief. So Everybody deals with that. 


[00:08:30] Gina: Do you agree Ben? 


[00:08:31] Ben: Pretty much. I would say a good example of what you're talking about is Early on in this series. I talked about a an interpretation of the Trinity that I had heard Which is that we are made in God's image, and we are mind, body, and will. 


[00:08:47] And God, therefore, is the same way. And God the Father is the mind, God the Son is the body, and then God the Spirit is the will. And that's how you can find the three parts being one. The three aspects of God creating one singular entity, which is God. That is something that I have peace with. There was a long time where I really didn't understand it, and I didn't get it. 


[00:09:06] And I heard that explanation and I'm like, okay, that makes sense. Now that doesn't mean that that explanation is really the way that it works. Because I've heard other explanations and other people who say that that explanation doesn't quite work. And I understand where they're coming from. Dr. David Woods talked about it and said that he has his differences with that. 


[00:09:24] And I referenced Nabeel literally all the time, and I imagine I'm going to reference him many, many more times. But the solution that he got, not his full explanation, actually came from a science class that he was doing. And it wasn't on quantum mechanics, it was on something else, I can't remember exactly. 


[00:09:40] They were doing a class on titrations, and there was something that was mentioned about something being in multiple states but still being the same thing, simultaneously. And so after hearing that, he thought, okay, so that could be, that's an example of something being multiple things separately, but still being the same thing. 


[00:09:56] It's not necessarily that you have found the right answer. It's that you find out that an answer can potentially exist. And so you find peace in the fact that, okay, I may not have the right answer. The right answer does exist. And where a lot of people find conflict is just the feeling of maybe there is no answer. 


[00:10:13] And that isn't a good place to be. Where you think, okay, they're just, Maybe all of this is just 100 percent wrong. Maybe all of this is silly, made up nonsense. That someone told me to make me feel better about myself, and now I'm getting this question, now I'm in an existential crisis. Just finding out that, yeah, there probably is an answer. 


[00:10:30] Even if you don't have the right one, this lets you know that it's possible to make sense of it. That, I think, is valid. It doesn't mean you're right. But it does make the feeling itself valid, especially if you put it in context. 


[00:10:42] Gina: So having those strong feelings is not a reason to leave and go start your own church. 


[00:10:50] Ben: Again, it's about the context of the feeling. So, there are people who felt that way. And I've known of many different churches that have developed My old church in Wisconsin is one where there was a satellite church that kind of developed off of them. And then there are other churches I've been at throughout the years. 


[00:11:07] Most new churches that you find are from people who split off from other churches and start new churches. I wouldn't say that that's valid for every single time. For some, though, it's legitimate. Sometimes there's a genuine split in the leadership of the church. And when you listen to some of these stories, but yeah, not to get too specific, I don't want to throw people's names out there or anything, but why do you feel the way that you do? 


[00:11:29] That's the ultimate question. If you're someone who's thinking either I need to leave my current church and find a new one or you're thinking, okay, I have this really deep conviction that I need to start a new church. All right. Where is that coming from? Is it simply coming from a disagreement? Is it coming from the fact that you are going to tons of different churches and not finding a single one that it seems reasonable to you, where every single one you go to seems to be crazy? 


[00:11:53] Sometimes that means that you're crazy, and sometimes it really does mean that all of the churches around you are legitimately nuts. Because, like we said in the last episode, the number one denomination in the United States is non denominational. And there is no telling what that church is when you go into it. 


[00:12:09] Right. 


[00:12:10] Ben: So it is possible. You're just surrounded by tons of churches that aren't truly servicing Christ. And what the Lord's telling you to do is to start one that does. That could be it. The question is, what's the context for the feeling? 


[00:12:22] Gina: Thank you. No problem. Sorry. I have these random questions. No, no, 


[00:12:26] Ben: it's good. 


[00:12:26] It's good to get these the next one 


[00:12:28] Gina: And you want my next question? What's your next question? Um, let's go with 


[00:12:34] Ben: Well, so I got a question 


[00:12:35] Gina: Okay 


[00:12:36] Ben: So if God is able to speak to us directly and we all here believe that he can Whether or not he does he can if he can do that Why doesn't he just set us straight on the different things that we should believe? 


[00:12:46] Gina: Uh, cause there's 7 billion of us. 


[00:12:49] Ben: He can't talk to all of us? Of 


[00:12:50] Gina: course he can! But, you know, say that he talks to 1 million and he tells 1 million people the same exact thing. You're gonna have 1 million different explanations of what God said. 


[00:13:02] Ben: Well, can he not talk to 1 million people individually and set them straight constantly? 


[00:13:07] Gina: Well, he could, but they're still going to interpret it differently. You have language barriers, you have cultural differences. But he 


[00:13:15] Ben: knows the languages and he knows the cultures. 


[00:13:16] Gina: It's not about God's ability. It's about our ability. I mean, that's what I think. I don't know. What do you think, Cody? 


[00:13:22] Ben: Can you restate the question? 


[00:13:24] Why doesn't God set us straight on our various doctrines? Like, he could do it directly, he could just talk to us. So why doesn't he do that? 


[00:13:30] Cody: Well, I think we covered part of this in the whole divine hiddenness, um, topic that we covered, but if he was talking to us absolutely directly face to face, there would be no pursuit or chase. 


[00:13:45] Like, there would be no skin in the game for us. Like, there's, there is no effort to get to know God more if he's telling you exactly what everything is. I agree. What 


[00:13:55] Gina: he said. 


[00:13:58] Ben: I don't think that what you said was wrong at all. 


[00:14:00] No. I 


[00:14:01] Ben: think in many ways it's additive to that idea of divine hiddenness. I think at the heart of the issue is that we're human beings and we want God to be a certain way. 


[00:14:12] And that's ultimately what I think a lot of, uh, The doctrines are in the Bible. It's a reflection of what we want God to be 


[00:14:19] Gina: or that we want to be like or God 


[00:14:22] Ben: Mm hmm, and a lot of the times people will take things that make sense to them Like I said before at different points in my life I had different doctrines and so at different stages in our lives and in our faith will say okay This is what I think and God should have my back because I'm right on this And they'll find something in the Bible that backs that up. 


[00:14:40] It's more that we have the things that we want to believe, and so we find things in the Bible that confirm it. And it's not that God didn't tell us directly, or that he wouldn't set us straight. And oftentimes, it's like through the process of sanctification, we are set straight on a lot of these things. 


[00:14:56] And, I think that God, in many ways, does actually directly interfere and directly instruct us. It's just, it's an agonizingly slow process because God is, He's gentle, for the most part. That may sound strange if you read the Bible and you think, okay, so the same guy who, like, literally smoted Sodom and Gomorrah, like, blew them up off the face of the earth, yeah, he's the gentle guy. 


[00:15:18] On the individual level, he really is. The process of sanctification really is God highlights individual areas of your life where you need help. And then very agonizingly slowly, he starts helping you with that. And then suddenly another area highlights and you think, I didn't, that wasn't an issue before. 


[00:15:34] Yeah, it was, it was an issue the whole time. It's just, God's not going to take your entire life, the entire summation of all the sins that you have, hold them up to you and say, okay, fix it. 


[00:15:43] Gina: But I want, I want to know now. Make it, make me know now. 


[00:15:47] Ben: I kinda do wish that I knew now too. I mean, that would make this podcast a lot easier. 


[00:15:51] We could just tell everybody exactly how things are. 


[00:15:54] Gina: Ben, Ben, Ben, if you say you're an expert, they don't question you. 


[00:15:57] Ben: Especially if I say it in an English accent, then everyone knows that I'm an expert, because a person with an English accent would never lie. They're experts in everything . But yeah, it's, sorry. 


[00:16:10] No, it's, it's okay. It's like you said, there is the divine hiddenness and there is the pursuit. And the pursuit is a process that changes us. Just the very act of pursuing God is something that will change you. So yeah, I think there's a, a lot of aspects to why we have the disagreements and why God doesn't specifically set us straight 


[00:16:27] Gina: Then, is it, is it possible for us to be certain about any Christian doctrine? 


[00:16:33] We're all having identity crisis right now. 


[00:16:36] Ben: It kind of depends what you mean by certainty. So, Gina, are you certain that you exist? 


[00:16:41] No. 


[00:16:42] Ben: There we go. If you're not even, if you can't even be 100 percent certain that you exist. You can't be 100 percent certain of anything because your senses are contingent on you existing. 


[00:16:54] Cody: There's lots of stuff like a lot of atheists or agnostics will be like, oh, I can't see it I won't believe it. But you know, do you believe you have a brain? I guarantee you've never seen your brain. 


[00:17:06] Ben: There was a very interesting interview I saw with Richard Dawkins. where he was discussing with another atheist this general subject. 


[00:17:15] And he said there was a point where he would have said, yes, I would believe in God if I saw the evidence, if he appeared to me, say, and said, Hey, Richard Dawkins, I am God. 


[00:17:26] Gina: But how can we I mean, this is like a total rabbit hole, but. Like with AI and all of the technology, you could easily trick somebody. 


[00:17:35] Ben: That's, that's what I'm getting to. His response changed over time where initially he said, yes, I'd believe God exists if God literally showed up to me. But then he said, but yeah, how could I prove that that wasn't aliens showing up and playing a prank on me? How do I know that's not a hallucination? 


[00:17:52] There is a point like absolute 100 percent certainty is not something any of us is afforded. And I think. The divine hiddenness of God is one of those reasons. Now, at the same time, a lot of these questions about certainty go out of the way once emergencies start happening. Like once our lives are suddenly put in danger, all of these weird philosophical questions, do we exist? 


[00:18:11] Do I even know that I exist? Suddenly go out the window. 


[00:18:14] Yeah. Now it's where am I going? Yes. What's going to happen? 


[00:18:17] Ben: And so I feel like a lot of these questions about certainty really only can be entertained when you're in safety and comfort. But as far as whether or not we can be certain of anything, no, we can't be 100 percent certain of anything. 


[00:18:30] You can have. Beyond a reasonable doubt assurance that something is true. 


[00:18:35] Gina: I'm certain. I love you. 


[00:18:37] Ben: Oh, I love you too. 


[00:18:38] Gina: Sorry. 


[00:18:39] Ben: Beyond a reasonable doubt? 


[00:18:40] Gina: Yeah. 


[00:18:41] Ben: Oh, thank goodness. 


[00:18:44] Gina: Okay. 


[00:18:45] Ben: What do you think? Can we be certain about anything? 


[00:18:48] Cody: Um, can we be certain about anything? Um, not in the absolute 100%. And you know, Paul even alludes to that in scripture. 


[00:18:57] You know, if, If Christ didn't rise, then Christians are of all people to be the most pitied. you know, I don't think he was having an existential crisis or doubting what he believed, but it's, it's a valid point to put forward. 


[00:19:12] Gina: I mean, we have so much evidence of the people who walked with Jesus having issues remembering or holding onto the things Jesus taught, like Peter at certain points after Jesus ascended, like was making poor choices and going back to the more like, you know, the circumcision stuff. 


[00:19:31] And so it's hard to say that like, 2, 000 years removed from Jesus walking on this earth, we could have certainty when the disciples didn't even have true certainty. 


[00:19:42] Ben: When even John the Baptist, like this is a guy who knew Jesus from when he was a child. When he was in the womb. Yeah, he knew Jesus when he was in the womb. 


[00:19:50] He literally started doing backflips inside of his mom's womb when, you know, his mom and Mary got together. So, even that guy, when he was put in prison, and he was gonna be executed, and he talked to his disciple, he's like, Look, I really need to know, just please go and ask him, are you the Messiah or not? 


[00:20:07] Are you the one who we should be expecting, or should we expect someone else? If John the Baptist, that dude, had doubts, then yeah, you can't take 100, 100 percent certainty in anything. And honestly, that's one of the reasons why I trust the Bible to the degree that I do. Like the people in the Bible are real people and it's very clear they're written that way because that's, it's the truth. 


[00:20:28] It's who they were. So yeah, while we can't have certainty 100 percent you can have beyond a reasonable doubt assurance that it's true. 


[00:20:38] Well, the next question is, so Two a man . 


[00:20:43] Cody: So when we're, we're going to these churches and we're, you know, trying to figure out what the church believes, what others believe, or you've been in a church for a long time, what gives anybody the right to start judging people? 


[00:21:00] Salvation. Because it's common, you know, the common thing, you know, Christians will be like, Oh, we need to go convert, you know, the, the Buddhists or the Muslims. And, you know, they don't believe in the same God and all of that. And that's a little bit easier, but inside the church, does that happen? Is it okay if it happens? 


[00:21:18] Ben: Yeah, you bring up a good point because there is the great commission, go forth and make disciples of all nations. It's pretty clear to see when someone is genuinely not a disciple. But inside the church, there is occasional finger pointing where we say, okay, those people aren't Christian and we're actually going to be doing that a bit tonight with Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses. 


[00:21:37] And I do apologize to any Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses who are listening. We're not doing this to accuse anyone. We're not doing this to hurt anyone's feelings. So please give us a chance and we'll. Walk. Walk you through a lot of our reasoning behind this. The logic behind the logic of God. 


[00:21:50] But don't take our word for it. 


[00:21:51] Ben: No. And I do think that it's, there's accusations that have been levied far too often inside of the Christian Church. A lot of that is leveled from Protestants to Catholics. I've heard a lot of Mm-Hmm. . And then a lot of that is also levied back from Catholics to Protestants. Some of that does have to do with doctrinal. 


[00:22:11] In the end, we can't say with 100 percent certainty, again, whether or not someone is going to be accepted into heaven. And this is including people who aren't Christian. We know that there is no other name by which man can be saved. But we don't know if someone who doesn't believe gets to heaven and then Jesus says, Hey, I'm Jesus. 


[00:22:29] Like 


[00:22:29] Gina: a good example of that would be like the age of accountability. It's more like it's a little bit. Milder than accusing adult to adult of self like salvation or lack of it Because it involves like children. 


[00:22:41] Ben: Yeah unborn children who were never brought into the world Are we gonna say that all of them go to hell because they didn't have a chance to say the words I believe in Jesus Christ. 


[00:22:49] Yeah, 


[00:22:50] Ben: so there is a lot of that that's up in the air and we do need to be humble You're very, very humble in approaching this question. But I do think that there are times where there are specific doctrines that are presented forward that lie so outside of the biblical purview that you do have to point them out and say, that's dangerous, that is objectively wrong, that is not Christlike. 


[00:23:10] Now, as we kind of covered already, there's tons of different disagreements with different denominations about different doctrines, but I do believe there are specific doctrines that are so horrible that they do exclude you from being Christian. Now, the question is, how do you determine that? And ultimately, that goes back to what we've stressed many, many times, but those are the five core assumptions of Christianity. 


[00:23:33] One, that God exists, two, that God is good, three, that he loves you, four, that he came in the form of Jesus Christ and suffered in blood and died for your sins, and then five, that God speaks to us through scripture. Now, there is some gray area in all of those, absolutely, but if you outright defy one of those five assumptions, you can't be a Christian. 


[00:23:55] If you literally deny that Jesus was, that one, Jesus even existed, or two, that Jesus wasn't who he said he was, you can't be a Christian because the whole point of being a Christian is to be a follower of Christ, to be a little Christ. That's what the term Christian literally means. Little Christo. Little Christo. 


[00:24:13] And so if you decide you're going to say, you know what, I kind of like some things, but Jesus, I got to say, you definitely weren't the son of God. You definitely aren't God himself. And I don't need you specifically for salvation. And your sacrifice didn't do anything, then yeah, I would say that you aren't a Christian at that point. 


[00:24:32] And that's not me saying it. Now, yeah, I mean, it is me saying it. 


[00:24:35] Cody: But why do you think that they latch on to the term Christian when it literally means to follow Christ, to be like Christ, and to believe what He's told us? 


[00:24:48] Gina: Can I answer? 


[00:24:49] Cody: Yeah. 


[00:24:50] Gina: Because one of, like, I want to give an example of this outside of Mormonism and outside of Jehovah's Witness for a second, just because I think it's relevant. 


[00:24:59] Like my mom calls herself a Christian, but she does not do the things in the five core assumptions. And outside of that, she does things that the Bible actually forbids. So for me, it's not really like, do I believe her when she says she's a Christian? No. Do I have an argument with her? Like it's a badge of honor that I'm in a club and she's not like, no. 


[00:25:23] And I think we get caught up in this like, um, relationship with the church instead of the relationship with the Lord. And, um, Christian just becomes an idol or a title. And, uh, I don't know, like for me, the biggest burden that I have in my life is knowing that most of my family has no idea who Jesus is. 


[00:25:44] And, um, like does it give me the right to belittle somebody or, um, to like call judgment down on them? No, I don't want to ever accuse somebody of being an abomination or something. But I do think, you know, scripture gives us permission in certain instances when people are calling themselves Christians to call them up. 


[00:26:05] And um, you know, it talks about in scripture not judging the people who aren't saved, but judging the people who are. And so there's a fine line. In, um, you know, saying you're not a Christian or you're not saved or you're going to hell. Um, and I don't think that we should ever speak to somebody like that, but for me, the biggest burden in my life is knowing that I have relatives that say, Oh yeah, I'm a Christian because I went to church as a kid and now I am in a cult and, um, it doesn't hurt anybody, but it is light and Jesus is light. 


[00:26:38] And that means that I'm light. And that means that I'm a Christian. Amen. 


[00:26:41] Ben: Yeah, there's a separate question in there. There's the question of, is someone a Christian? And then there's a question of whether or not God will save them. Whether or not they're going to heaven. We can't say for certain, again, whether or not any individual person will end up going to heaven. 


[00:26:58] We know that there is no other name by which man can be saved. God so loved the world, he gave his only begotten son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish, but have everlasting life. We know that Christ is the only one who can save. The question is, can he do that after you die? The only thing I can say for certain is that if you do follow Christ, if you do confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you shall be saved. 


[00:27:24] And the reason I can say that with certainty is because that's literally what was lined out in the Bible. Maybe there's something else. Maybe there's a chance after death where God comes to you and says, Hey, this is me. This is how everything works. Do you believe? Maybe. But I'm not going to tell people that. 


[00:27:40] And I don't know. All I know is, I have to confess with my mouth. And that's the only way I get that blessed assurance. That I know So, now, where I'm going. 


[00:27:48] Gina: You're going to get further in the argument of salvation and being a Christian or not through discipleship than you ever would through judgment. I know Cody's been a really good model of that for me. 


[00:27:59] Cody: I think in, at least in our modern society. Era, we get the term judgment mixed up with, you know, the sentence and condemnation and just enacting, you know, God's will on other people. That's not what judgment really means when people are saying to judge others. Like when we, when we judge our brothers and sisters and hold them accountable, that is not the same as God enacting His righteous judgment. 


[00:28:32] Ben: And it's important to remember that the harshest words Jesus had were for the religious leaders at the time. It is possible for us to have vehement disagreements, but we also do have to remember we're not Jesus. Like we're fallible people too. There are times where we will be given strong convictions about things. 


[00:28:47] And unfortunately you do have to have a measure of wisdom and knowledge of yourself to know if that's Jesus or if that's you, but if the Lord's not 


[00:28:54] easy, 


[00:28:54] Ben: no, it really isn't. But if the Lord's not leaving you alone on something, oftentimes a good barometer for that is, do you want this to be the hill you die on? 


[00:29:03] If it's the hill you want to die on, it's probably you. And if it's something you want to stay far away from, but God's not letting you, it's probably God. 


[00:29:10] Gina: I was sent this quote today, and I have no idea who this pastor guy is, but he's talking about if you are called to prophesy, then you're going to have a hard time staying quiet, meaning like saying things you shouldn't say. 


[00:29:26] And if you are meant to help the heartbroken, then you're going to deal with heartbreak. Like, there are certain signs and, like, fruits that will come with certain gifts and certain things from God. And I think the truest way of testing them is seeing, like, what the fruit is. And sometimes that takes a lot of time. 


[00:29:46] Ben: You know, the tree by its fruit. That's very true. So how do we determine if a doctrine is necessary for salvation? 


[00:29:53] Gina: If it makes me feel peace. I'm being sarcastic. 


[00:29:56] Cody: It's like, whoa, okay, we need to go have a conversation. How do we determine that? Well, we know that salvation is through grace alone, not of our own doing. 


[00:30:10] So, kind of, that would be the first step. If it contradicts that, then, I would say, then, it's probably not a correct doctrine. 


[00:30:18] Ben: Yeah, essentially, we're told multiple times throughout the Bible what it is. It's, again, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and you believe in your heart, you trust in your heart, you trust That God raised him from the dead, you shall be saved. 


[00:30:31] That's it. 


[00:30:32] Gina: Can you give some examples of doctrine that could potentially or may not impact salvation, but that is still maybe something that we see in the average Christian church in America? 


[00:30:45] Cody: Infant baptism. Yes. 


[00:30:48] Gina: What about, like, communion? 


[00:30:51] Ben: Well, so in the Catholic Church, communion is considered to be one of the seven sacraments. 


[00:30:55] And the seven sacraments, I would say, is prayer. Probably another example of one of these things, where in the Catholic faith, there's different classifications of sins. There's mortal sins and venial sins, I believe is the classification. And venial sins aren't that big of a deal. They're sin that puts distance between you and God, but in the end, it can just be forgiven. 


[00:31:13] You just ask for forgiveness and you're fine. Mortal sins are different. And so it's like looking lustfully on a woman. For an example, if you're a man is a mortal sin and a mortal sin, the second that you commit it, It puts an eternal distance between you and God, and you need to re attain grace to cover that sin. 


[00:31:30] And you re attain grace through one of the seven sacraments. And one of the seven sacraments is the Catholic Mass, and at the Catholic Mass is when you partake of communion. And they believe that the partaking of communion is something that will re You will recover your grace through that. That, I don't think inherently makes you not Christian, believing that. 


[00:31:49] Like, seriously. I disagree with the concept of the seven sacraments, but the thing is about each of the seven sacraments, at the heart of it, it's essentially stressing an idea that is a holy thing. The idea of marriage as a sacrament. It's treating marriage as a very holy thing, as a very important thing. 


[00:32:08] And yes, I disagree that it covers over sin. But the Catholic approach to it is that it's, it's a genuinely holy thing. It's meant to reflect Christ's relationship with the church, and as a result, because that's the reflection, it is a holy and beautiful thing. Now, yeah, I think that they add a little too much there, but I don't think that believing doing certain things covers over your sin, or just kind of thinking that and going through the motions like many Catholics do, ultimately overrides the fact that you've confessed with your mouth Jesus is Lord and you believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, so you are saved. 


[00:32:41] I don't think that once you get into heaven, he's like, So what's this, uh, Venial mortals and 


[00:32:45] Cody: the thing he were talking about and no, but it becomes an issue when you depend on that thing for your salvation, because when you slide from confessing, okay, repentance, you know that you're a center. You know that you fall short of God glory, God's glory, Jesus is the only grace that gets you there, but you have to do this work to purify yourself. 


[00:33:08] Again, it's like how we talk about baptism, baptism being a necessity for salvation is a work based salvation. If baptism is necessary for salvation, then it is a works based item that you have to do. So that's putting salvation in your court now. If you don't get baptized, you're not going to be saved. 


[00:33:32] Ben: And the way I've seen and heard many Catholics explain, they do more see it not so much as a forgiving of sins, but as these are very important rituals that they partake of. And while it's something that the Catholic Church, uh, at the highest levels does teach is necessary for forgiving sin, they don't really see it that way. 


[00:33:48] So just the idea that it exists, I don't think is something that automatically makes it to where all Catholics are no longer Christian or something like that. I do think it stands, like Cody said, in opposition to the fact that it's, you cannot earn your salvation. 


[00:34:01] Cody: I respect that in a lot of way from the Catholic church, because a lot of non Orthodox Christians, Orthodox being Catholic, will kind of just brush it off. 


[00:34:12] Like, yeah. You know, at least in Catholicism, there's this more heavy weight of needing to rid yourself of the person that you are. Non denominational Christians will sin, and it's just like, la di da di da, you know, you know, Paul talks about, should you continue to sin so grace can abound, by no means. But I feel like that's how a lot of American churches act. 


[00:34:36] It's like, Oh, the more sin I do, it just raises God's grace. And no, that's not, that's not how it works. 


[00:34:43] Gina: Are there any other examples within the non denominational church for doctrine that, um, might be confusing or. I don't know, just throws people off balance a little bit in terms of their salvation. 


[00:34:59] Cody: It's hard with non denominational, because they're kind of the willy nilly, like, bring in anything as long as you're a Christian, because you'll have, charismatics can fit in with, uh, you know, the cessationists being the same church, and it's not really taught about a whole lot, or if it is, it's in a biblical context, so there's no real butting of heads. 


[00:35:24] Ben: Yeah, I would say. There was a non denominational church that I went to literally once and then never went back to again. And the reason was because the sermon that the preacher gave was literally about how it's possible for you to change God's mind. Now, I don't know where on earth you can get the idea that you can change God's mind. 


[00:35:41] But he talked about 


[00:35:42] that a lot. 


[00:35:43] Ben: Mm hmm. And I think it's very very wrong. And the guy was talking about Moses and Moses talking to God and God was like, I'm going to Wipe out this generation of Israel after they, you know, made the golden calf and Moses like no don't do that and then God didn't do that well I was like, 


[00:36:00] oh, 


[00:36:00] Ben: yeah, he's like, oh, okay I didn't occur to me that I shouldn't but the thing is if you continue reading through the book of Exodus It turns out God did actually wipe out that entire generation Moses asked him not to in that moment, and so he let Moses see what would result. 


[00:36:15] And then, later on, literally that entire generation was wiped out because they refused to go into the promised land. They didn't believe in God enough. They didn't trust him enough. And so they ended up wandering in the desert for 40 years. And if Moses had listened to God in that instance, and had accepted what God's judgment was, rather than asking God to change something, And who knows what would have happened. 


[00:36:36] Cody: He might have made it into the promised land. He might have. No, I've heard that taught before and it's the same with the interaction. It seems like the forever interaction when, uh, right before Sodom and Gomorrah is being destroyed. 


[00:36:50] Ben: So yeah, that's an example of another, uh, I think that that's very wrong, and you can make the argument that that goes directly into the face of God's immutable characteristics, his eternal nature. 


[00:37:01] Because if you can convince him of something, obviously it means that he doesn't, uh, actually know everything. Now, I would say that it's a wrong doctrine, but I would say it's one that's made from the perspective of you don't know everything. 


[00:37:13] Cody: Would you tease that out more? Like if they believe they can change God's mind, so this is kind of playing devil's advocate. 


[00:37:21] Sure. So if you tease that out further, and like, to me, the logical end to that belief is open theism. Where you believe, you know what you're going to do before God does, and I would say that borderlines heretical. 


[00:37:37] Ben: Yes, I would say so too. I would say that that is a tough thing and we'll actually go into more exploration of this kind of thing later. 


[00:37:45] I would agree it does borderline heretical. I would say that there are probably people who believe it, but don't really put too much thought into it. And so they think when they're praying something, maybe God will do it because I'm just convincing. I wouldn't say that those people aren't necessarily Christian. 


[00:38:00] It's tough. But I would say that, yes, the actual doctrine itself is heretical. And yeah, that does beg the question, okay, so can you believe a heretical belief and then still be a Christian? I don't know. Like, that's a tough one. 


[00:38:14] Can I ask a question? 


[00:38:17] Gina: I mean, I guess that was a rhetorical question. 


[00:38:20] Ben: You could ask a question. 


[00:38:20] Gina: Um, I know that, I know that we've been talking about this for a while, but can you guys give like just a layman's explanation of what a doctrine is? Because I think we probably should have done that. It's a little Christian. Well, we did 


[00:38:35] Ben: that, we did that in the last episode. 


[00:38:38] Gina: Yeah. 


[00:38:38] Ben: Essentially, a doctrine is just an interpretation of the Bible. 


[00:38:42] An individual section of the Bible. An idea presented in the Bible. So an example of a doctrine, we've given a few examples, but here, there's the, the doctrine of, okay, I can change God's mind. That's a doctrine. There are doctrines that are true. There are doctrines that are false. Different Christians disagree on different things. 


[00:39:01] and agree on different things. But there are definitely some doctrines that are so wrong that they are basically heretical. And by heretical we mean Really, really, really wrong. 


[00:39:11] Gina: Would you consider Calvinism to be a doctrine? Yeah, 


[00:39:14] Ben: it's a doctrine. Yeah. 


[00:39:15] Cody: It's a lot of sets of doctrines. 


[00:39:18] Ben: Yeah. But yeah, thinking a bit more about what you asked there, Cody, about specifically the doctrine of whether or not you can change God's mind. 


[00:39:26] I think that probably should be something that gets its own episode ultimately. But the broader question, can you have a legitimately heretical, Teaching in your church and still be a christian church This goes into whether or not we have the authority to say whether or not something is christian But 


[00:39:44] Gina: it takes a level of critical thinking that most people are too lazy or complacent to have and I I say that with all of the love in the world, but You can have churches that are, you know, the third largest church in america Speaking doctrine that's heretical or dangerous Is But because they're so wealthy and so popular and they write songs that make people feel good they're Thriving and growing and influencing and it's not just limited to cults. 


[00:40:16] It's it's also You know, mainstream Christianity. And I think it takes the logical aspect. That's why I love doing this podcast because we have to attack these doctrines and we have to be logical and analytical about them. And if you don't have the skills to critically think that's a big problem and you're never going to be able to identify where doctrine is misleading. 


[00:40:41] A congregation. There's nothing that, that makes me more irate. Then hearing a pastor teach something that's kind of ambiguous because you know what they're really saying, but they're not saying it in the way that would make them get called a heretic. And that's something that I think bears noticing here because it's not just as insidious as or obvious as, you know, Mormonism or cults or whatever it's. 


[00:41:11] Ben: Yeah, I, I think ultimately this goes back to whether or not you can be a person who is saved. But then the church itself that you're belonging to isn't a good church. It's maybe even a heretical church. And I would say, kind of tying all this together from a logical perspective, if we're saying that a Christian church is one that adheres to all five of the core principles, and you have a teaching that directly goes against even one of those core principles, then no, you're not a, you're not a Christian church. 


[00:41:39] That doesn't mean that members of that congregation can't be saved, because we can't say whether or not they are. We can't say, that's something that God determines. All we can do is look at the individual doctrines that make up something and say whether or not the doctrine itself is sound and whether or not the doctrine adheres to what makes something Christian. 


[00:41:57] Cody: That's why we tell everybody to not take anybody's word for it, but to figure it out themselves. Because at the end of the day, your church does care about your salvation, but you alone are responsible and are supposed to pursue and work out your faith in fear and trembling yourself. 


[00:42:19] Gina: And loving God with all of your heart is great, but if you're not loving Him with your mind, that's a problem. 


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