Are Mormons Christian?

[00:00:00] Cody: Hi, thank you for tuning in to the Logic of God podcast. I'm Cody. 


[00:00:16] Gina: I'm Gina. 


[00:00:17] Cody: And I'm Ben. If you're returning, thank you for coming back and if you are a new guest, welcome. 


[00:00:30] Gina: How do people fall into, I don't, I don't want to call it a trap, but how do people fall into the trap of. Believing things like Mormonism or Jehovah's Witness type religions, as opposed to like the more mainstream Christianity. 


[00:00:47] Ben: Some of them are born into it. In fact, I would say most of them are born into it. 


[00:00:52] Sometimes people are approached during very vulnerable times of their lives, and they don't really have much meaning. And then these very happy and kind people, and they are genuinely some of the happiest and kindest people you're ever going to meet, they present you with this new meaning in your life. 


[00:01:07] And You look at these people and think, okay, whatever they have, I, I want it too. So that's a lot of the stuff that I've seen. As far as anything beyond that, like convincing arguments, I haven't seen too many convincing arguments. There have been some people who've fallen away from the faith and then joined a Jehovah's Witness or a Mormon church and then shortly after that left because they learned more about them and then realized they didn't agree with anything. 


[00:01:33] So, there is also some of that. I think I did a lot of looking at different Mormon and Jehovah's Witness websites before doing this episode. And what I found, and I encourage everyone to go out and do this too, when you look at the material that they put forward, the stuff that they know non Jehovah's Witnesses and non Mormons will see, they try to make it as Christ adjacent as possible, as close to Christianity as they can get it. 


[00:01:58] And they'll say things like, yeah, we believe in Jesus and we believe that he's super important. We believe that he came to earth 2, 000 years and that He died, and his death and resurrection was very important. Well, you notice that they didn't say very specific things in that. They were very careful in the way that they worded that. 


[00:02:16] They want to bring you in, and they want to convince you that they are pretty darn close to Christianity. And then once they bring you in, they're gonna start Edging in the stuff that's separate and the stuff that separates us from them is very important 


[00:02:29] Gina: Yeah, 


[00:02:30] Ben: that kind of brings us to the question Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses claim to be Christians But most Christians claim that they're cults. 


[00:02:36] So why is that? 


[00:02:37] Gina: I think it's the love for me like So my daughter, my oldest daughter's grandmother, and we're a blended family. So it's not Cody's family. It's my daughter's biological family Her grandmother is Jehovah's Witness and I've learned a lot like a lot of her life was very traumatic And she was sort of preyed upon by people to convince her that you know They would support her and comfort her and be there for her Um, but it became like this super strict kind of judgmental environment where she wasn't like, you know, she, she raised her son wanting to have, you know, good memories with him. 


[00:03:20] But then it was like, oh, you can't celebrate his birthday and you can't buy him Christmas gifts. And, you know, it's become so inhibiting for her that. She like won't even buy gifts at all because she doesn't know morally in her heart if it's for a celebration. And it's, it's so restrictive now. It's almost like she's, Like she can't have meaningful relationships with anybody. 


[00:03:43] She can't date because if she dates, then the church is going to say something and she can't go to Thanksgiving or have a special meal because if she does, the church is going to say something. So, um, I don't know, like the further that she got into it, the less she had her own say. And I think that's where the cult type mentality comes in, is where you don't have any freedom. 


[00:04:07] Um, you know, in, in the Christian church, you, you're still able to sin, you're still able to make your own decisions, and we, we hope that we don't sin, but we're not condemned by everybody that we've ever known because we've sinned. And I think that's the cult mentality that's really damaging, and then you feel like you can't get out. 


[00:04:28] I don't know. Do you have any thoughts? 


[00:04:30] Cody: I think why most Christians would consider it a cult is just because the core foundations of being a Christian and following Christ and believing the divinity, neither one of them really truly believe in the divinity of Christ, and we'll cover that in a little bit. 


[00:04:47] Um, but. Like you said, I mean, you got the, the cult mentality, um, with they're very restrictive on questioning beliefs and doctrines and certain ends and outs of the faith that they have, um, very, very restrictive and frown upon it. And, um, Christianity is not like that. Um, if you're in a. Good, and most churches will actually encourage you to question it. 


[00:05:17] I mean, our church does it on student nights and, um, I've, we've been to another church in Ohio that, you know, basically asked the pastor any question and, you know, it's encouraged to understand why you believe what you believe and why Christianity stands out from other religions as well. 


[00:05:37] Gina: I think the biggest tell for. 


[00:05:40] A solid, like, teacher in religion is somebody that's willing to, like, hear your questions and entertain them. And then also someone that's willing to say, I don't know, let me find out and get back to you. There's a certain level of credibility there instead of like, well, just do what I say. 


[00:05:58] Ben: There are also certain things where if you're not hyperbolic and you're literally just stating the origins of certain things in Jehovah's Witness theology and Mormon theology, they sound so bizarre and insane that they sound made up. 


[00:06:14] And yeah, that could be because we grew up outside of this and we didn't hear a lot of it. But when you talk to a lot of people about Christianity, even if they disagree and they're hearing it for the first time, they think, you know, that actually makes sense. I get that a lot with people who I talk with Christianity about. 


[00:06:30] Now, at first there may be a kind of gut reaction, like, okay, so God came to earth, but when you go deeper into it over time, they, they warm to it pretty quickly. Trying to steel man their positions as much as possible and just say, okay, we look at just the core things that they believe, not what led to these core things and not, you You have the stories behind them, just the core ideas. 


[00:06:53] I would say the reason that we would describe the core ideas as being cultish, as being not Christian is because they directly and very clearly contradict the five core principles, the five core assumptions in Christianity. Now we kind of touched on this earlier. There are some people, other denominations or non denominational churches who claim to be Christian, and there are some doctrines that can. 


[00:07:16] potentially be in contradiction, in direct opposition to these. And there is some, there will be some debate on that for these. It's so clear and obvious that there really is no, no questioning it. Like 


[00:07:30] Gina: it's so obvious because of what you believe, or it's so obvious for everybody. Well, 


[00:07:34] Ben: we'll get to that. 


[00:07:35] Okay. So in order for us to really address this properly, we need to address each individual belief system on its own. So first Mormonism, what do Mormons believe? 


[00:07:45] Cody: I 


[00:07:47] Gina: mean, there's stereotypes. Are we talking stereotypes or are we talking literally? We 


[00:07:51] Ben: can start from stereotypes. So when you think of a Mormon, what do you think? 


[00:07:55] Gina: Lots of wives. 


[00:07:58] Cody: Which that one's like what most people go to. And I think the open door to getting them inside in their missionary journey is that is actually a separate denomination of Mormonism. They, they broke off from that. The main church of the Latter day Saints broke off from that belief. a while ago and now it's like a separate that 


[00:08:20] Ben: they consider a cult. 


[00:08:21] Well, the trouble with that is that Joseph Smith himself had about 40 wives. About 14 of them were already married when he married them. One of them I know was 14. So one. Yeah. One of the issues, again, I didn't want to go too much into this, but it's something you do have to address. The founder of the feast himself, Joseph Smith is the head prophet who was the one who created this offshoot of Christianity called Mormonism. 


[00:08:48] And that guy. He had 40 wives and a lot of the stuff that he said as far as teachings were from gold tablets that he found, supposedly, I believe it was in the mountains of New York somewhere, just out there, and he claimed that he just found these gold tablets. Years before that he had prayed to God and asked him to show him what the true denomination was and then God himself told Joseph Smith that none of them were right, that all of us are complete heretics, literally all Christians are heretics. 


[00:09:19] And this isn't my opinion, this isn't my interpretation, this is literally stuff that Joseph Smith wrote and I encourage everyone to go out and check this out for yourself, don't just take my word on it. But essentially Joseph Smith taught that all other Christians are heretics. His denomination is the only true one. 


[00:09:33] And that the stuff that he eventually put down in the Book of Mormon and the Pearl of Great Price and whatnot, that stuff that was, that came from golden tablets that he found out in the mountains that were written in ancient Egyptian hieroglyphics. And eventually those tablets actually went missing. 


[00:09:50] They just disappeared. I think someone stole them. Maybe it was his mom or something like that. No, I thought he buried them. I've heard a bunch of different, uh, Tellings of the story, but one way or another, the gold tablets that he had the Egyptian hieroglyphics on from God that were given by an angel, they got, they disappeared, and so he needed to find another way to read them, and so he had this hat, and he had these, Gina, no, this is very serious stuff, so he had this, Is 


[00:10:16] Gina: there a rabbit? 


[00:10:18] Ben: Sort of. So yeah, he, he had this hat and then he had these spectacles that had these very special crystal lenses and he would just take the hat and he would look down in the hat and then he would read the tablets and he would dictate to a person who, I can't remember the name of the guy. He was another one of the higher ups of Mormonism and he would just write these down. 


[00:10:39] Now, automatically when I say that, it sounds a bit crazy. Sounds like a 


[00:10:43] Gina: children's television show. Uh 


[00:10:45] Ben: huh. And one of the main things that was taught in these gold tablets that he got, I was talking with Gina about this earlier, so hopefully she's, she's solid against this and she won't, she won't be tempted to laugh because this is very serious, is that the Jews actually migrated to America. 


[00:11:03] I think it was roughly 600 BC, around there, it was a while before Jesus was born. And, the Jews developed into two separate nations, one of them was light skinned and good, one of them was dark skinned and bad. And, eventually, uh, there was a war between the two sides, and the light skinned Jews were completely wiped out by the dark skinned Jews, who were evil, and, they were all wiped out, and Jesus had appeared to the light skinned Jews, and they were wiped out, and that's why we don't know anything about, uh, The light skinned Jews, and there's no evidence that they ever existed, but they totally did. 


[00:11:35] And this is the stuff that was written in ancient Egyptian hieroglyphics on these gold tablets that he was reading. And that's not the only thing that was written there, just, just some of the stuff that was written there. And the point in setting all this out right now is that, yes, hearing all this without knowing anything more about the stuff that Joseph Smith taught, does this sound like a reasonable faith? 


[00:11:57] Gina: No, it sounds completely made up. 


[00:12:01] Cody: To play, again, The Devil's Advocate. Please. Gonna be tough, but, so, our, our atheist friends, you know, I, I hear, You know, we hear this as crazy, but also I can understand where a talking snake who entices humans to eat an apple off of a tree that God made can sound crazy as well. 


[00:12:25] Ben: Sure. There's individual aspects of the Bible that seem crazy to people outside of it. And yet when you go through the Bible, the places that are referenced are real and the places that, and the people are real. And even the people in places that. We're once argued from an archaeological standpoint as they having, you know, no evidence for them. 


[00:12:44] Turned out that they actually did exist. There's now archaeological evidence, pretty firm stuff for David. And for a while, they claimed that David didn't exist. No, he probably did. But the point is, is that archaeological discussion exists in the Bible. And there are people, archaeologists, who take the Bible and use it as the standard for archaeological discovery. 


[00:13:04] Like, it's a very valuable book, and it's useful, even if you don't agree with everything, and even if you think parts of it sound insane. The reality is, is it is valid, and it's existed for literally thousands of years. And in an entire civilization, multiple civilizations, all of Western culture is built on this book. 


[00:13:22] Now, you have Joseph Smith's book. 


[00:13:24] Cody: Are you telling me that they haven't found archaeological evidence of the light skinned Jews? 


[00:13:29] Ben: Unfortunately not. 


[00:13:30] Gina: Those are my people. 


[00:13:33] Ben: And the thing is is Mormons themselves are aware of this and they will discuss it and say, but look, you have to take this by faith. It doesn't matter if there's any evidence for it or not. 


[00:13:42] You have to take it by faith. It is very much a faith based religion where it doesn't matter what evidence is presented against it. You have to take it by faith that it's true. 


[00:13:50] Gina: It's the because I said so type. 


[00:13:52] Ben: It is very much that way. 


[00:13:54] Cody: And that's why I thank you for taking that the direction I really wanted That, that is what sets the Bible apart in many different faiths and religions from their quote unquote 


[00:14:07] Ben: book. 


[00:14:08] It's amazing the number of times if you read the book of Exodus, when you read the book of Kings and Chronicles, it will say, this is the place that this happened. It is there to this day. I mean, we've seen 


[00:14:20] Gina: the footprint of the tabernacle, like, in person, so, and it's built to the exact specifications in scripture, and to have confirmations of things that are accurate according to the Bible. 


[00:14:35] Show up in different countries or in different areas run by different religions and have that be confirmed, you know, it's, it's very powerful. Like it would be very, I think, easy for Muslim areas to or Jewish areas to bury certain evidence, but they don't. And I think that is one of the most compelling arguments for the Bible's accuracy historically, even though there's poetry or, like, imagery or just stories that sound unbelievable or make no sense. 


[00:15:09] Ben: And maybe some parts of the Bible are meant to be taken as poetic or stories that have traditionally been taken as historical. That's entirely possible. I'm open to that opinion. And there are certain people like Dr. John Lennox and Dr. William Lane Craig, who make that case. And I believe that they are Christians, to be clear. 


[00:15:25] Just because I disagree with them on those specific doctrines doesn't mean that I think that they're any less Christian than I am, but as it pertains to Mormonism, so we 


[00:15:35] Cody: covered that, okay. On the surface there, there, how the belief or the, the faith, the religion started in the founder of the feast. Yeah. 


[00:15:47] The founder of the, it's a bit crazy. Okay. So with that said though, what. Makes them not Christian. So we're comparing them to Christianity. They're claiming to be Christianity We're calling cult. They're claiming Christianity. What makes them not Christian? Mm 


[00:16:04] Ben: hmm and to be fair everything that we've discussed up to now doesn't exclude them from being Christian It just means that the person who is kind of the head of their denomination was banana flapjacks insane 


[00:16:16] Gina: And I mean, okay There are Christian churches in America that believe really wacky things. 


[00:16:22] Cody: Absolutely. Oh gosh. 


[00:16:23] Gina: Grave soaking and the glory cloud and 


[00:16:26] Cody: Serpent 


[00:16:26] Ben: seed stuff like. Gina believes the Holy Spirit's a pink cloud. 


[00:16:30] Gina: Yes, I do. 


[00:16:31] Ben: And that's okay. Legitimately. That's my 


[00:16:34] Gina: personal, that's different. It's my personal relationship with the Holy Spirit. It's different than convincing a A 4, 000 person church service that there is a literal pink cloud hovering over the people, and they all believe 


[00:16:50] Ben: it. 


[00:16:51] But still. Up to this point, we haven't said anything that specifically precludes modern Mormons from being Christian. We've only established that the lead up and the person who established this was a bit off his rocker. Wacky. So, let's discuss the core teachings, the core ideas, and do our best to steel man them here. 


[00:17:11] Let's try to be fair. Number one, do they believe that God exists? Yes, they do believe that God exists. However, God isn't the only God who exists. God, our God, God the Father, once existed on a different planet many, many thousands of years ago. And he was a man, just like we are, he's human. And eventually he died and was resurrected in a glorious spiritual form and slowly over time gained more and more godly power and eventually became the God that he is now. 


[00:17:48] And he has a wife at least one in heaven and that's how jesus came about as well as satan So jesus and satan are brothers and then eventually Gina, no, no faces. No faces. That makes this difficult. Try to be respectful 


[00:18:02] Gina: No, I know it's reminding me so much of new age spiritualism that my mom has talked about So that's why i'm making faces and 


[00:18:08] Ben: that's why this is relevant that we we do need to address this stuff Yeah, eventually jesus was sent down to earth And he wasn't a god yet But then he died on the cross and then he became a god. 


[00:18:22] Yeah, and they also believe that the Holy Spirit exists and is another God. So they believe in three separate gods that are That's their version of the Trinity. There is only one actual full God, which is God the Father. But the other two were, but 


[00:18:36] Cody: there's not only one full God. There is many. Yes. There's many creator gods. 


[00:18:41] And you can even trace that back into like, somehow they, I don't think they die, but they keep going back. Okay. Where did the gods that created. This God come from and it keeps good. There's no singular cause like the Bible teaches. They 


[00:18:58] Ben: believe that there is literally an infinite number of gods that exist in the universe. 


[00:19:03] Now, 


[00:19:04] Gina: do they believe that people can die and become a God? Yes. Yes. Okay. That's like exactly what my mother believes. 


[00:19:13] Cody: You too can rule your own plan. 


[00:19:18] Ben: Now that, that does depend on how, uh, Holy you were throughout life, but that's a separate teaching. Listen, 


[00:19:23] Gina: she's very holy. 


[00:19:25] Ben: Okay, by Mormon standards Well, that's good 


[00:19:31] Gina: Sorry, 


[00:19:31] Ben: yes, so Cody you actually put down a note here It's a process called exaltation and it's in the teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith pages 345 To 347 and page 354, just as a reference for people, if they want to look at this, 


[00:19:46] Gina: it's proof that they've done their research. 


[00:19:48] Yeah, 


[00:19:49] Cody: you can get a lot of this stuff for free. Um, like Brigham and Young, um, has a lot of these just in PDF format. Google it, you can download it, read it for yourself. We're not making this stuff up. He just read the page numbers. This is, you know, straight from. It really amazes 


[00:20:07] Gina: me how much of this aligns with New Age Spiritualism. 


[00:20:10] Cody: That's why, uh, putting those together, I thought it would be good for the episode. 


[00:20:15] Ben: Okay, now putting up a pause on reading any further, we've only gone through one doctrine right now. Is this already enough to say that they are not Christian? 


[00:20:24] Gina: It depends, and I'm not knowledgeable on Mormonism, but I think it depends on their explanation of Jesus purpose. 


[00:20:32] Ben: So they do believe that that was for the forgiveness of sins, but it's more for 


[00:20:38] Cody: So they could still get a so if we're basing the christianity off of repenting grace through god He's the only reason They could still technically even if they don't believe that I don't know like the whole trinity thing I think if you don't believe in the trinity that kind of just removes here. 


[00:20:58] Well, 


[00:20:58] Ben: so we'll get to christ's purpose a bit later You But just taking this as the first of our core assumptions as Christians is that God exists. But what we claim God is as Christians is we claim that He is the triune God. He is the Father, Son, the Holy Spirit. We believe in the Trinity. Now the version of God that they present is not eternal. 


[00:21:19] He's not from everlasting to everlasting. He's finite and He was once us. And the thing is the morality that this God preaches Is going to be different from the literal infinite number of other gods that exist. So the question is like from the christian perspective God's goodness is immutable. It's a part of him. 


[00:21:41] It's who he is and it's as part of nature as Actual nature is it's impossible to change But at one point he was fallible and he was a human and then he became a god. So Are his teachings on morality is his morality arbitrary? You Seemingly so, because there are an infinite number of other gods. 


[00:22:02] Gina: Do they teach, do they teach that Jesus was sinless or that God can't sin or didn't sin? 


[00:22:09] I know that that's not relevant, but I'm just curious. 


[00:22:12] Ben: Well, for the sake of kind of iron manning this, I, I don't fully know 'cause I'm not an expert on Mormonism. But let's say for the, for the moment that God was always. Good. They do claim that He was righteous, but I don't know if they claim that He was 


[00:22:25] Cody: sinless. 


[00:22:25] But God was a human being, like, a human being like us. So they basically think that we can be the same as our Creator. Like, we, God ruling over our Earth, Is the same that we can do somewhere else. So they believe that God was a human humanoid being at one point died, set his own laws, you know, saw that the laws were good, set his own laws into place, got his own planet and is ruling over that now. 


[00:22:58] Gina: So does that put the point of being a Mormon less on the salvation and relationship with God and more on the like, eternal destination of becoming your own God? 


[00:23:11] Cody: It's hard because you, there's a lot of this in, uh, Christian faith right now, like this theosis, which is like the, the process of becoming a light God or like a spiritual being. 


[00:23:24] And you got a lot of this talk, especially lately with the, you know, the gods of the Bible, you know, the, the term Elohim can be plural. So like, and it's used plural a lot, but it's just meant to be spiritual beings. And you can get to a lot of. The plurality of little g gods in the Bible, but that's not the same as what they're teaching here 


[00:23:52] Gina: Thank you for clarifying 


[00:23:53] Ben: when there's also in Christianity We don't believe that we will ever be the same as God. 


[00:23:59] Correct. We are the creation. He is the creator And we are subservient to him. In the teachings of Mormonism, they claim that we are basically the same thing as Christ. We are all children of God, it's just Jesus is older than us and farther along. And so he is much closer to Godhood, God's Godhood, than we are. 


[00:24:18] But one day we will be at Christ's level. We'll be even beyond that given enough time. And so, yes, that's already we've gotten to an issue where they have a fundamental disagreement on who God is. Now, does that mean automatically now we've strayed outside of Christianity? I would say yes. 


[00:24:37] Gina: Yeah. 


[00:24:38] Ben: But we're going to push it further. 


[00:24:39] Yeah, we're going to say maybe we're wrong about this one. Maybe somehow there's, it's, it doesn't matter so much who you think God is. It's just that you address that God exists. I would disagree with that, but let's go. Let's go with that. We'll assume for now that it doesn't matter how God is, it's just that God exists is important. 


[00:24:57] So next part is scripture. So what do they think about scripture? They believe that God continues to reveal scripture to this day through the prophets, such as Joseph Smith and even their current church president. They have books outside of the Bible that they refer to as scripture, such as the Book of Mormon, the Pearl of Great Price, and the Bible. 


[00:25:14] Uh, the Doctrine and Covenants. The Bible itself is considered to be less authoritative than the other sources, and their translation is the Joseph Smith Bible, which differs significantly from Christian translations. An example of this would be Joseph Smith specifically added verses in Genesis that are prophecies about him coming as a prophet. 


[00:25:35] And as an example, I put down two of these verses in Genesis, uh, chapter 50, verse 30. 


[00:25:41] Gina: This is coming from the Joseph Smith version. Genesis 50 30, And again a seer will I raise up out of the fruit of thy loins, and unto him will I give power to bring forth my word unto the seed of thy loins, and not to the bringing forth of my word only, saith the Lord, but to the convincing them of my word, which shall have already gone forth among them in the last days. 


[00:26:11] Ben: Now 33 is actually a bit more on the nose. You could say that's kind of vague. 


[00:26:16] Gina: And that seer will I bless, and they that seek to destroy him shall be confounded. For this promise I give unto you. For I will remember you from generation to generation, and his name shall be called Joseph, and it shall be after the name of his father. 


[00:26:35] And he shall be like unto you, for the thing which the Lord shall bring forth by his hand shall bring my people unto salvation. 


[00:26:45] Ben: Thank you, Gina. 


[00:26:46] Gina: It's like reading the KJV. 


[00:26:47] Ben: It's a bit like that, yes. You got the flowery language down pat. But you will notice if you try to bring this up on any other version of the Bible, these verses don't exist. 


[00:26:57] Joseph Smith literally added these to the Bible. 


[00:26:59] Gina: How is this any different than the Message Bible? 


[00:27:02] Ben: I'm not familiar with the Message Bible. 


[00:27:03] Gina: Cody can answer. And it's kind of just a trick question. So, like, 


[00:27:08] Cody: the Message Bible is more of a commentary than an actual Bible. Um, the Passion Version I would put more at this level, because I want to say the Passion Version is, you know, 30 percent longer than the normal Bible, just because of all of the additional explaining they do. 


[00:27:26] But it's 


[00:27:27] Gina: So this is not found in the original. 


[00:27:30] Cody: This is different because they're literally adding verses to the Bible. The passion and message did not do that to my knowledge. 


[00:27:39] Gina: So the passion and the message are an expansion of what's already there, but this is an addition. 


[00:27:46] Cody: So like, you know how you, you've explained it. 


[00:27:49] There's like the word for word translation, like the NASB, um, ESV is kind of closer than there's like the thought for thought message and the passion are like, All the way on the right floor. 


[00:28:02] Ben: Yeah. Let's say that I was having a conversation with someone in Spanish and I'd say like, and so you say, what, what did you just say? 


[00:28:10] I don't know anything about Spanish. Like, Oh, I said, hi, how are you? That's not literally word for word exactly. That's just a translation of what it is, and I'm doing my best to represent it. And then there might be someone else who heard that and said, Well, because you're really, really close to this person, and you're saying it with more of a loving tone, I'm just gonna add some commentary and some background info on this to let people know the basis of this conversation. 


[00:28:32] And then there's Joseph Smith who comes in and says, Also, he was talking about me, and he specifically adds additional lines to the conversation. It's not expounding or translating or trying to give clarity. It's literally adding something to the actual conversation that's happening. And Mormons, again, this isn't something that they deny. 


[00:28:49] What they say is that the original Bible was corrupted, that the Bible that all of Christians use is wrong, and it's been mistranslated, and Joseph Smith was given the actual translation. The original version of Genesis that is true and that version of Genesis mentioned him directly 


[00:29:09] Gina: and and he got this information Because he is a prophet. 


[00:29:13] Cody: Yes, because he prayed and an angel came to him multiple times 


[00:29:19] Ben: Now once again, let's put a pause here looking at this doctrine by itself Is this doctrine the idea that there's additions to Scripture that you can add to Scripture itself? You Something that excludes Mormons from being Christian or Mormonism rather not that Mormons themselves can't be but that the faith itself is not Christian 


[00:29:40] Cody: you know when people talk about red flags and dating and all of that stuff like This is a red flag of religion when somebody and you know, somebody added or there's no other versions Specifically something to give himself, yeah, credibility. 


[00:29:59] That's a huge red flag. It'd be like, if I started a school, a college school, gave myself a PhD in something, and then that school closed, like, am I an authority on whatever I just gave myself a degree for? No. So, 


[00:30:16] Gina: but you identify. As a doctor professor, and you are a doctor professor, so. 


[00:30:22] Ben: You will call me doctor 


[00:30:23] Gina: professor. 


[00:30:23] Ben: Hello, doctor professor. 


[00:30:25] Gina: That's a quote from Spongebob, you're welcome. 


[00:30:29] Ben: We went there. Beyond its time, that show. 


[00:30:33] Cody: It really is. 


[00:30:34] Ben: This is a doctrine that's kind of going against the number five assumption that we have, that God speaks to us through Scripture. And we went through an entire episode talking about the idea that Scripture itself is meant to be the canon. 


[00:30:48] It's meant to be the measuring rod against which all other truth is measured. If we are capable of retroactively going back and saying, No, that's not it. It's 100 percent false, and I'm going to add literally myself. Into the Bible. 


[00:31:02] Gina: Into thousands year old texts. 


[00:31:04] Ben: Yes. Setting aside the fact that we have very, very old manuscripts stretching back literally thousands of years. 


[00:31:11] And so, it's pretty certain that Joseph Smith was not mentioned in anything. 


[00:31:16] Gina: Do you know how many Mormons exist in the world today? 


[00:31:19] Ben: I believe it's something like 16 million. There's 


[00:31:21] Gina: a lot. It's 


[00:31:22] Ben: a 


[00:31:22] Cody: lot. 


[00:31:23] Gina: It's a big church. 


[00:31:23] Ben: Yes, pretty big. Again, don't quote me on it. I know it's in roughly that, that ballpark could be like 12 to 16, something like that. 


[00:31:30] But yeah, there's, there's millions of them. 


[00:31:33] Gina: Does that, does their church service at all resemble a Standard Christian church service. Yep. 


[00:31:39] Cody: There's 


[00:31:39] Ben: like 


[00:31:39] Cody: liturgy and 


[00:31:41] Gina: like worship music and stuff 


[00:31:43] Ben: I've never personally been to one 


[00:31:45] Gina: Cody's the one who well, I don't know which what's closer to 


[00:31:49] Cody: 17 million. 


[00:31:50] Gina: Oh, 


[00:31:51] Cody: you were short. 


[00:31:52] Uh, 1 million 


[00:31:54] Ben: You're taking 1 million away. What's a million between friends? But yeah, gina you haven't really given your opinion on this yet So what do you think that just the act of adding to scripture is something that? That removes the faith itself, not necessarily the members. We do want to make that distinction, but the faith itself as something that excludes it from being Christian. 


[00:32:14] Gina: I mean, he used the word loins, so it's pretty legit. He could be right. No, honestly, I'm a very, I take a long time to trust. Mm 


[00:32:28] Ben: hmm. 


[00:32:28] Gina: And. Like Cody has taught me to be more analytical than I used to be. Um, I kind of jumped into Christianity with rose colored glasses. So it would have been really easy for me to be deceived by this. 


[00:32:40] Um, especially with my upbringing, um, because my mom. Was involved in occult activities and just really strange things growing up. And I was very fearful of learning anything about religion because I was scared that, um, for a couple of reasons, just like that, what she had done had somehow tainted me. Um, and also just not wanting to be involved in any kind of supernatural stuff. 


[00:33:07] And so it would have been easy for me to get looped into something like Mormonism or Jehovah's witness religion. And. I actually did, um, start to talk to my ex's mom about becoming a Jehovah's Witness before I realized what it really was. So I don't know, like when you're vulnerable, I can see how it's really easy to have somebody say like, because I said so, and have that structure feel super reliable and trustworthy. 


[00:33:33] But I mean, now I kind of laugh about it, but the truth is it probably like old me would have fallen into this very easily. 


[00:33:40] Ben: Once again, stepping back. And just looking at what Mormonism has done, Mormonism has helped a lot of people who are struggling with different issues in their life. And just because it's not specifically 100 percent Christian, and that is my feeling on that, and we'll expound on it even further than we already have. 


[00:33:57] I don't believe that it is Christian, but just because it's not Christian doesn't mean that it hasn't helped people. 


[00:34:03] Gina: And 


[00:34:03] Ben: there are people who've used it as a stepping stone to Christianity. 


[00:34:06] Gina: I mean, so I'm an adoptee. And one of the most powerful resources that helped me figure out information on my biological family was the Church of the Latter day Saints. 


[00:34:18] Um, they have so many resources for genealogy and, um, a lot of the work that they've done is super helpful just for, you know, record keeping for the history of mankind. And so while I think there's not full truth here, I do believe that, um, But they're not like, you know, inherently evil or bad people. 


[00:34:38] Ben: You'll find that a lot of the younger Mormons don't specifically know about a lot of the crazier things that we've talked about here. And their faith is actually much closer to actual Christianity, like full Christianity. And it's much later in life where they're told about the more expanded theology about God being from a different planet. 


[00:34:57] And being a human essentially on that planet and about there being many, many gods. They don't know about that when they're younger. So again, this is a, I want to very clearly say, it's not that I think Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses are beyond salvation or that none of them will be saved when they go to heaven. 


[00:35:15] That salvation itself is in God's hands. God is loving. God is just. And God is good. And only he knows the heart. So I'm not going to say that every single Jehovah's Witness or every single Mormon is going to hell or is not saved. What I am saying is that if we're looking at the theology itself, is it the theology that is saving them or are they saved in spite of their theology? 


[00:35:39] And I would say this theology itself. Is not Christian, it's not going to save. If you teach people this, the theology will not save 


[00:35:47] Gina: them. No, absolutely. I think what brings people in is probably having a tangible person that's saying this is true because it doesn't require faith. Mm-Hmm. . Whereas in Christianity, you have an invisible kind of. 


[00:36:03] man that, you know, you can't see, you can't necessarily audibly hear. And so it takes a lot more strength and courage and like critical thinking skills to overcome that kind of faith as opposed to the kind of faith where they say, believe me because I said so. And you're like, well, sounds, sounds fine. 


[00:36:23] Cody: And one of the tactics of both of these Religions is attacking christianity in general is as a whole is if Christianity was true religion or true christianity Then there would be still interaction with god and that's where they throw their prophets in there, you know Like we have this modern day Connection to God. 


[00:36:49] And that 


[00:36:49] Gina: exists in our church. Where's that? 


[00:36:51] Cody: But it's not the same. No, it's not. It's like the NAR movement we talked a little about. You know, there's these elevations to profit and people want that. They want this person who is in constant communion with God only hearing what he's telling them. And then they got to do everything he says. 


[00:37:10] And 


[00:37:10] Gina: let me tell you what, I saw a service Last year, actually it was earlier this year where a man came in, said, I am a prophet. I speak on behalf of the Lord. It was a room full of people who work in ministry, not just believe in God, but work in ministry, have attended seminary, have been teaching college courses and singing worship songs on platform for years and years, um, like very knowledgeable, wise people. 


[00:37:39] And this man came up and he picked a couple of people out of the crowd. Told them things that were very specific about their lives, made them cry, was very moving, made all these promises. Um, claimed you as a prophet the whole time. I was like, no, this isn't for real. And that was my, you know, own conviction through the Holy spirit. 


[00:38:02] And after speaking to some of the other people that were there, they agreed with me that this was just weird. Um, it wasn't, it wasn't from God. And so, um, but you know, you have these people who work in ministry who just fell for it. They ate it up, especially the ones that got spoken to or chosen. It's like, we're also desperate for a word from God. 


[00:38:22] We're also desperate to be edified or encouraged or, you know, told we're on the right track and promised things that we want desperately. And so if we have somebody standing in front of us, we'll drop everything that we know to be true and everything that we've ever thought critically about because we've been edified, even if it's not real. 


[00:38:40] It's very easy to fall into that trap. 


[00:38:43] Ben: And building off of that, Christ demands a lot of things from us, and those things he demands require bravery. If you're going to talk to someone about Christ, you need to be fairly brave. If you're going to go into ministry, you need to be very, very brave. You need to be willing to look like a complete idiot. 


[00:39:01] You need to be willing to step out there and occasionally be wrong and be very wrong and have people point in your face and laugh and say this is how wrong you were and that's nerve wracking and that's terrifying and you're doing all of this for a God who at times seems very distant. God doesn't show up and literally write your sermons for you. 


[00:39:17] He speaks to you. I do believe that he speaks to you. Genuine church leadership, but even then you don't always know if it's you or if it's God and sometimes you're going to focus too much on yourself and you're going to write a message that may be true, but ultimately doesn't have the power of the spirit in it. 


[00:39:31] And so when you finally see someone and this person says, I am a prophet, I speak on behalf of God, there will be no more ambiguity. If you speak to me, it's the same as speaking to God. Now you have a direct line. Suddenly, you don't have to be as brave. A weight has been taken off of you. And so, I can understand that appeal. 


[00:39:52] I genuinely can. It's wrong, but I can see why a lot of people in leadership who are terrified and who feel tired and who feel overworked and they want something that they can be certain of, suddenly that's presented to them. Yeah, I can see why they take that bait. 


[00:40:06] Gina: There's been so many examples where Cause Cody and I went through seasons of infertility and we've met a lot of couples along the path that have also gone through it. 


[00:40:16] And so many of them have been like, well, this stranger just came up to us and promised us that God was going to give us a baby. And for a long time, I was like, Cody, why hasn't anybody just like had it on their heart to come up to us and say that. And I've kind of realized, like just because somebody may have experienced that and feel for you. 


[00:40:38] Like doesn't necessarily mean that their prophecy is going to come true. Like, we're not guaranteed that our prayers, like our deepest desires are going to be answered and it feels great to hold onto that, but I've seen it inhibit and like hold back people from actually doing the right thing. And so like having that, that desire, um, acknowledged doesn't necessarily mean that, that it's from God. 


[00:41:05] And I think it's a slippery slope to. Take people at their face value, especially when they're making promises. 


[00:41:12] Ben: There are people who feel like they're being very compassionate and they feel like their compassion is coming from the Lord. And to be fair, the compassion itself may very well be coming from the Lord, but at the same time, they feel like, okay, so this person really needs something from God. 


[00:41:25] They need a solid answer. Maybe that's true, but you're not going to be the one that gives it to them. Most likely. Yeah. God. Maybe through the Holy Spirit telling you, yes, this is very sad. You should empathize with this person. You need to be a friend right now. It doesn't automatically follow that you should be giving promises that God isn't making. 


[00:41:46] In fact, it's certain you shouldn't be doing that. And 


[00:41:48] Gina: there's scripture to back that up because it calls people foolish who makes those kinds of promises or takes the place of the Holy Spirit or takes the place of God by making promises to people that they don't know for sure can be kept. 


[00:42:00] Ben: Now to be clear, God can do that through people and he has, but if millstone around your neck and throwing yourself into the sea. 


[00:42:10] I would not recommend you do that. 


[00:42:11] Gina: And this is where New Age prophecy comes in. New Age spiritualism and manifestation and all that stuff because, and I think it ties in because you have, you have people who believe that, okay, well I'm walking in the light and it's ambiguous and sounds kind of holy, so it must be good. 


[00:42:27] And then, you know, then they have the mediums and the people who, You know, have special titles and do special things with different things and, and suddenly what they're saying is true because they're acknowledging that want in you. And um, it doesn't really matter if it comes from a pastor or a special religious person or if it comes from, you know, the occult, um, all of these things are, it's promising you something that can't be guaranteed by anybody but the Lord. 


[00:42:55] And just because you want it really, really bad, doesn't make it true. And if we let ourselves get caught up in these prophetic words, whatever they're coming from, we're kind of ignoring the whole point of our walk with the Lord. I know that was kind of a tangent, but 


[00:43:12] Ben: no, it's a good tangent. People like your tangents. 


[00:43:16] So I think there's one more point that we should probably address. I think at this point it's pretty clear. It's pretty certain that based on the five core assumptions of Christianity, Mormonism stands in pretty stark opposition to several of them. This one last point, though, I think is one worth addressing. 


[00:43:31] So, they do believe in Christ, and they do believe that Christ died on the cross, but he didn't do it to forgive sins. Instead, he died to guarantee resurrection in the spirit world for all people. So once you die, no matter what, no matter who you are, you're resurrected and you're brought into the spirit world because of Christ. 


[00:43:48] So after you die, you're judged, and then you're sent to either the telestial kingdom, the terrestrial kingdom, or the celestial kingdom, depending on how good you were in life. 


[00:43:57] Gina: They rhyme. 


[00:43:58] Ben: Castile, yes. . So, yeah. Uh, some people who commit unpardonable sins will be sent to the outer darkness where the devil will be sent. 


[00:44:07] But the vast majority of people who exist in this, it doesn't matter if you're Mormon, Mormon or not, you're gonna be reincarnated into the spiritual world, and you'll be sent to one of these three kingdoms. And the highest, I don't know a great deal about the different kingdoms. I believe that at the highest level, the celestial kingdom, that's where people become gods and get their own planets. 


[00:44:26] Correct. 


[00:44:27] Cody: That was my understanding as well. I think the others kind of fall along the lines of the Jehovah witness, which we'll cover. 


[00:44:34] Ben: Yeah. I think they're nice places. You know, they're, they're nice, but you don't get to become a god. 


[00:44:39] Gina: How do I get a Range Rover? 


[00:44:41] Ben: Uh, you'd have to go to the celestial kingdom. 


[00:44:44] There you can just make one. 


[00:44:46] Gina: Well, I could stay a Christian and get a Range Rover. 


[00:44:48] Ben: Sorry. Why did you ask that? Like, you just get a Range Rover. Just get the money and get a Range Rover. I thought you wanted a Range Rover out of this deal. Maybe you'll get one in the Telestial Kingdom. I don't know. The T No, that's for Teslas. 


[00:45:02] The Teslestial Kingdom. Elon Musk. 


[00:45:11] But yeah, this is something that's kind of outside of the core assumptions. This is an idea about heaven and the afterlife. So, since this is a doctrine that's outside of our core assumptions, like it doesn't, strictly speaking, stand against any of them. It doesn't stand against God's existence or His goodness or Scripture. 


[00:45:29] It does, so yeah, you can argue that it stands against Scripture. Because it's blatantly ignoring a lot of stuff that's taught in scripture. 


[00:45:36] Cody: But Paul mentions the seven layers of heaven. 


[00:45:40] Ben: A guy caught up into the third heaven and then heard inexpressible things. And that's basically what they base that on. 


[00:45:47] They say that, okay, so there's these three different types of heavens because Paul once said someone was caught up into the third heaven. That's a bit of a stretch. Like, he didn't say the telestial or celestial or whatever. He just said, a man was caught up into the third heaven and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell. 


[00:46:03] Gina: It sounds so complicated and, like, political, I don't even want to go. 


[00:46:07] Ben: But essentially, they are saying that there is no hell, there is this kind of outer darkness, and some people will go there. But, so, let's say for the moment that it doesn't directly Go against anything, any more than, you know, some wrong doctrines do. 


[00:46:23] Because there are plenty of wrong doctrines that we would say do ignore scriptures. This one is taking a certain scripture and just going buck wild with it, and then ignoring other scriptures, which is what we would argue many doctrines do. So, if that is true, I think we can, you could potentially make the argument it's not, and that it is directly denying scripture, which they already have. 


[00:46:44] in an earlier point. Let's say that it's not. This is a doctrine that sits outside of that. Is it still one that would exclude Mormonism from being Christian? Just this by itself? 


[00:46:55] Cody: It doesn't make sense to me the need for salvation, I guess, at that point. Or like, if everybody's going anyway, it's like universalism. 


[00:47:05] Like, yeah, it doesn't matter. 


[00:47:08] Gina: What? There is some kind of level of judgment here. But there's no real punishment. Like, you don't get to go to the highest one, but you still get to go somewhere. 


[00:47:20] Ben: Sorry, you get the mansion, but you don't get the Ducati. 


[00:47:24] Gina: I wanted the Range Rover. 


[00:47:25] Ben: Fine, fine, but you're not in the Celestial Kingdom, so the best we can do is maybe a Ford F 150. 


[00:47:31] Gina: Can I, can I still wear Burberry? 


[00:47:33] Ben: Sure. 


[00:47:37] Gina: Cody is not amused. 


[00:47:39] Ben: He's not amused. I would say that there are certain parts of this that wouldn't. Like, saying that there are three different, Separations in heaven, so that there's a telestial, terrestrial, and celestial kingdom that make up heaven. That, I wouldn't say, excludes them from being Christian. 


[00:47:58] However, that's just one part of this. Saying that that's the way heaven is set up, okay, that may be wrong, but it's not something where I would say, no, that's the way it is. That makes you not Christian. 


[00:48:10] Gina: There's lots of interpretations of heaven and within the Christian church, like the different rooms and the different levels and all of that. 


[00:48:18] Absolutely. 


[00:48:19] Ben: And even considering hell to be an outer darkness, I would say is not excluded because they're still addressing that something like hell exists. They're just calling it something else. 


[00:48:27] Cody: But 


[00:48:28] Ben: I agree with you, Cody, in that where I do think it starts to stray outside of being Christian is essentially you are going into universalism here. 


[00:48:38] You're saying it doesn't actually matter what you do or what you say or what you believe. God is at minimum going to bring you into heaven. He may not bring you to the highest levels of heaven. He may not make you a God over your own planet, but no matter what, you all get 


[00:48:52] Cody: something. I just want to know, I can't stop thinking, how do I get to the extra terrestrial level? 


[00:49:02] Gina: Oh man. 


[00:49:03] Ben: That's the secret fourth floor that no one talks about. 


[00:49:08] Gina: Does that mean you just jump out and scare people? 


[00:49:10] Ben: No. That one's made by and run by Steven Spielberg. He makes great films. And even better extraterrestrial kingdoms. 


[00:49:21] Gina: Thank you so much for taking the time to listen to our podcast today. If you liked what you heard, please feel free to subscribe and share and leave a positive review. 


[00:49:30] And if you would like to connect with us on social media, you can do so on Instagram and Facebook at the Logic of God. You can also send us an email at Maine dot the Logic of god@gmail.com. Thanks again for listening. We hope you have a great day.