Are Jehovah's Witnesses Christian?

[00:00:00] Cody: Hi, thank you for tuning in to the Logic of God podcast. I'm Cody. 


[00:00:13] Gina: I'm Gina. 


[00:00:13] Cody: And I'm Ben. If you're returning, thank you for coming back and if you are a new guest, welcome. So okay, we've 


[00:00:32] Gina: talked about Mormonism, I think we've beat it into the ground. It's not Christianity. 


[00:00:36] Ben: Agreed. 


[00:00:37] Gina: So what about Jehovah's Witnesses? 


[00:00:39] Ben: Yeah, you're right. We've kind of drilled Mormonism into the ground. So Jehovah's Witnesses, what do they believe? Kind of 


[00:00:45] Gina: Should we start with stereotypes? Yeah, let's, let's go with 


[00:00:47] Ben: stereotypes. 


[00:00:48] When you, when you hear about a Jehovah's Witness, What do you think of? 


[00:00:52] Gina: No windows and no holidays. No celebrations. 


[00:00:55] Ben: That's actually pretty good. 


[00:00:56] Gina: Yeah. 


[00:00:57] Ben: That's a pretty good explanation. No fun. No fun. So yeah, there, there are only two things that Jehovah's Witnesses are allowed to celebrate as far as I know. 


[00:01:06] I looked on their websites. I looked all around to try to find if there were any other exceptions. The only two that I'm aware of. Uh, there's the celebration of Christ's death memorial. That's the full title. That's not Easter. It's different from Easter. They think Easter is pagan. So yes. So 


[00:01:23] Cody: does Cody. No. 


[00:01:26] Ben: No. 


[00:01:27] Gina: Ishtar. We're not going to do anything to do with Ishtar. 


[00:01:31] Cody: No. It's the bunnies and the frickin 


[00:01:33] Gina: God made bunnies, Cody. 


[00:01:35] Cody: Yes he did. And 


[00:01:36] Gina: they're born at that time. And they make 


[00:01:37] Cody: eggs. Bunnies lay eggs. Yes. Really? We don't call them eggs. Really? We call 


[00:01:43] Ben: them turds. Little pallets. Yeah, they look like little eggs if you squint hard and you don't know what an egg looks like. 


[00:01:51] Gina: Okay. Well, if you tell me it's an egg, I have to believe it because you said so. 


[00:01:55] Ben: Absolutely. But yeah, they don't, they don't celebrate birthdays. They don't celebrate Christmas. They don't celebrate the 4th of July. They don't celebrate Memorial Day. They don't even 


[00:02:04] Gina: sing the national anthem, right? 


[00:02:06] Ben: Correct. 


[00:02:06] They can't even go into the military. 


[00:02:08] Gina: This says, Jehovah's Witnesses are conscientiously opposed to war and to their participation in such in any form whatsoever. For this reason they inform officials of the government that they conscientiously object to serving in the military or in any civilian capacity which fosters or supports the military. 


[00:02:28] Ben: And they can't say or stand for the Pledge of Allegiance, and they can't stand for the National Anthem like you talked about. So, yeah, it's no celebration, no elevation of anything that isn't God of any kind. That's it. 


[00:02:40] Gina: They can't get blood transfusion. I don't think they can drink. 


[00:02:44] Ben: There's a lot of things. 


[00:02:45] They're not allowed to do They're not allowed to have fun They're not allowed to think and honestly that is kind of the image that you get when you think Jehovah's Witness It's just these people who kind of wander around and they got the nice white shirts They knock on your door kind of like Mormons do except somehow they don't seem quite as happy 


[00:03:03] Gina: Yeah, yeah. 


[00:03:04] I mean, just knowing my daughter's grandmother, she's so bland, like she's loving and she's kind. She's a good grandma, but she's just kind of bland. 


[00:03:15] Ben: And I think there are some cultural reasons for that that have to pertain to their actual beliefs, but we'll get to that in a second. So, number one, first thing coming out of the gate, do they believe in God? 


[00:03:26] Do they believe God exists? Yes, they do believe that God exists. That you're not quite as out there as Mormons are in terms of who God is. I believe they still do adhere to God being eternal. That God is from everlasting to everlasting. And they do use the Bible specifically as their main resource. So yeah, that's, that's what they believe. 


[00:03:45] However, they don't believe in the Trinity. And they don't believe that Jesus is God, rather they believe that Jesus is the Archangel Michael. And the Holy Spirit is essentially just God's will on the earth. So not a separate entity necessarily, just God's will being exerted over the earth. 


[00:04:00] Gina: We, um, had a water system installed in our house last year. 


[00:04:04] And the salesperson was a Jehovah's Witness. And we didn't know that at the time, like in the moment when he got here and was talking to us, but then like he was here for hours. So I was like, are you hungry? Like can I make you something to eat? And he was like, well, I'm a vegan and I really just want celery juice right now. 


[00:04:25] Cause he noticed that we had a juicer on the counter. And so I made him a big cup of celery juice and. He was like, wow, like, thank you. You're so Christ like. And I was like, oh, thank you. And then he went on and explained that he was a Jehovah's Witness. And I was like, why are you saying I'm Christ like if you're a Jehovah's Witness? 


[00:04:45] And it was kind of odd, still never figured it out. But we had some pretty good conversations with him, just trying to understand what was, was You know his driving force for being a Jehovah's Witness. He was a young guy, you know young Newly married had a baby And he explained that like his really only hold up in christianity Was not comprehending the trinity 


[00:05:09] Ben: and I can understand that there are a lot of people who struggle with it So already just putting a stop same question as before Is this something that would exclude them from being Christian? 


[00:05:18] Gina: Yes. Yeah. Devil's advocate. One, two, three, go. 


[00:05:22] Ben: Yeah. So give us, give us an Iron Man here. What, what would be a solid response to that? I honestly find this one tougher than Mormonism. I agree. Um, I agree. It, for my personal opinion, it is harder to determine whether this is a denomination than Mormonism just because Mormonism has so much bananas stuff on the outside. 


[00:05:41] And so a lot of that insanity is reflected internally. Now, to be fair, there is some crazy stuff from Jehovah's Witnesses as well, which we will get to. But, again, I don't want to focus on that. I want to set that aside and look at the core ideas. 


[00:05:53] Cody: So, the non divinity of Christ is a hard one, um, kind of a hard stop, because if, I don't get how an angel dying for your sins would, would be the same, and kind of goes against the Bible, and like, I don't know where exactly they pick up it being Michael. 


[00:06:12] Yeah, 


[00:06:12] Ben: I'm not entirely certain on that either. And I think there's another detail here that needs to be talked about before we really assess whether or not this causes them to not be Christian, or the faith itself to not be Christian. Again, I keep saying this, but I do want to emphasize this. We're not saying that there aren't individual Jehovah's Witnesses. 


[00:06:33] who aren't saved, or that there is no hope for Jehovah's Witnesses, or that they're horrible people, or anything like that. We're saying the faith itself can't be considered to be Christian. Not that none of them are saved. It's that the faith itself can't save. 


[00:06:45] Gina: Yeah, nothing that we're saying is direct condemnation or judgment. 


[00:06:48] This is truly just assessing from a logical and analytical perspective based on the five core assumptions of Christianity. 


[00:06:55] Ben: Very eloquently put. So another thing that we need to look at That's adjacent to Christ's divinity, is why he even died to begin with. So, in Christianity, we say that he died to forgive sins. 


[00:07:06] And, you know, when we die, we're going to be judged and we go to heaven. And, you know, it's by grace we've been saved through faith and not through the works. It's a gift of God. For Jehovah's Witnesses, when a person dies, they cease to exist. That's it. You don't have any spirit. There's no soul. There's no eternal aspect of a human being. 


[00:07:23] You're just gone when you die. There are 144, 000 Believers who will be resurrected at the end and they will reign with God, but that's it. 


[00:07:34] Cody: Yeah, so the 144, 000 is the Anointed by Jehovah's Spirit, and they alone are in the New Covenant, only the 144, 000 have a heavenly hope. Other Jehovah's Witnesses have an earthly hope. 


[00:07:51] They expect to live forever on a Paradise Earth, but they are not part of the New Covenant. 


[00:07:57] Ben: And, uh, the reason that they give is Revelation 7, 4. And I heard the number of those who were sealed, 144, 000, sealed out of every tribe of Israel. So, tying those two things together, and thanks for looking that up, Cody, where Jesus did die, and it was for our sins, but it's not for anything spiritual, necessarily. 


[00:08:18] It's all completely on earth, except for the 144, 000 who then go up to heaven, and they're spiritual, in a sense, but not. Like, tying all that together, is this, at this point, enough to say that they are not Christian? 


[00:08:31] Cody: Absolutely, because it makes a fool out of every other scripture outside of Revelation that mentions the 144, 000. 


[00:08:39] You know, when John 3, 16 doesn't give, you know, up to this limit, for God so loved the world that he gave his one and only son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish up to 144, 000. 


[00:08:51] Gina: Well, and I know that But like, for the people that I know that are Jehovah's Witness, it's very works based. So in order to be in the 144, 000, you have to have done a certain number of works to qualify to be in one of the, like, as one of the most faithful members of the church. 


[00:09:08] That's works based. It's not faith based and grace 


[00:09:12] Ben: 8, 500 positions left. Of the 144, 000, so. 


[00:09:19] Gina: But they have a clock counting down to the end of the world. 


[00:09:22] Ben: So, that's another thing. Are we going there? I'm sorry. We don't have to go there yet. I would still like to keep to the core doctrines so far. Do you have, 


[00:09:33] Cody: I don't remember, 


[00:09:35] Ben: do you mention the Watchtower at all? 


[00:09:37] No, I haven't, I didn't really write down Watchtower and I really should have gone into that. So yeah, Watchtower is essentially the central figurehead of this and it's not an individual person. 


[00:09:48] Cody: Not anymore. 


[00:09:49] Ben: Not anymore, correct. It's more of a collection of individuals like a council and it's through them that they disseminate. 


[00:09:56] Uh, there's a, like a magazine, the Watchtower magazine that they send out, and there's a bunch of different information pieces and aids that they send out to different people to try to help them understand Jehovah's Witnesses better. The thing is, is they are very strict about what Jehovah's Witnesses can take in. 


[00:10:12] They believe, again, that the Bible was corrupted. But, their version of the Bible is not quite like Joseph Smith's. I believe it's more that they just have things cut out, or things translated differently. And, the guy who made this translation of the Bible, I wish I could remember the guy's name. I really should have written it down. 


[00:10:31] Charles Russell. Charles Russell. Good old Charlie. But essentially, he claimed that, All other translations were wrong and his was right, and then he was questioned on his knowledge of Biblical Greek, like the foundational thing, like literally the alphabet, and he's like, I, I don't know, and so, yeah, he was kind of humiliated there, but this is something that not a lot of Jehovah's Witnesses know about because it's something that Watchtower doesn't specifically teach them. 


[00:10:56] So yeah, they also believe that the Bible has been corrupted, and we can also just stop there. So if you believe that the Bible has been corrupted to the point where you need a completely separate translation, and it's one that, you know, Stands in direct opposition to christianity generally because it stands against, you know, christ divinity Like that's literally why they make the argument against christ divinity They have their own version of the bible that says that's not the case 


[00:11:19] Gina: Well, it challenges christ divinity, but it also challenges our fifth core assumption of the bible being Inspired and all that so like trustworthy and how god speaks to us 


[00:11:29] Ben: if it is the standard and to to make a kind of devil's advocate to They do still claim that the Bible is a resource and that it is the standard. 


[00:11:41] They just believe that our version of it is wrong, just like we believe their version of it is wrong. So can they be correct in that? 


[00:11:49] Cody: How did they get the correct one? Where are their manuscripts backing it up thousands of years? So yeah, that could 


[00:11:56] Gina: be argued that we don't, we've never personally seen physical copies of the Dead Sea Scrolls. 


[00:12:02] We've seen pictures, but those can be modified. 


[00:12:06] Ben: But then you're getting into an arena where, okay, so Mr. Russell, how exactly did he translate the Bible? Did he have access to a separate set of documents that we didn't have? No, he didn't. He just claimed that no one knew biblical Greek and read it correctly. 


[00:12:24] Cody: He also didn't get hieroglyphic tablets either. So 


[00:12:28] Ben: yeah, this is a lot. 


[00:12:29] Gina: He didn't have the hat. 


[00:12:30] Ben: Yeah. He didn't have the magic hat. 


[00:12:32] Cody: He's got a watchtower somewhere though. 


[00:12:34] Ben: Mm hmm. Well, yeah, this is one of the reasons why I agree with you, Cody, that this is a lot more grounded and as a result is a bit more difficult. 


[00:12:41] There's a lot more nuance in the question of whether or not they are Christian. When you're looking just at their core doctrines, when you look at some of the external stuff, then obviously it gets a little more apparent, but just trying to iron man the position and look at their core beliefs. Is it enough to say that Jesus isn't divine? 


[00:12:58] To say that you're no longer Christian? I would argue yes. 


[00:13:01] Cody: Yeah, I would agree. 


[00:13:02] Ben: And just saying that the Bible itself, all Bibles, up until the point where Russell did his translation, are corrupted completely. And as a result, all of our theology is wrong. 


[00:13:14] Cody: If all of them, I mean, weird thought, but they're a logical process. 


[00:13:19] If all of them were corrupted up until that point, how is there only 8, 000 some spots left? Shouldn't there be 144, 000 still? 


[00:13:27] Ben: Correct. There should have been 144, 000 at the time. Right. That Russell did his, uh, interpretation of the Bible, but that's not the case. So presumably the corruption happened sometime after Pentecost because they do claim, I believe, I did see it on one of their websites, that the 144, 000 extends from the time of Pentecost to now. 


[00:13:46] So 


[00:13:47] Gina: For, for reference, there's like 8. 7 million Jehovah's Witnesses in the world. They're 


[00:13:54] Cody: about 


[00:13:54] Ben: half 


[00:13:55] Cody: of, 


[00:13:55] Gina: yeah, but only 144, 000 of them will be elevated to heaven. 


[00:14:01] Ben: And like, yeah, and like David, sorry, Cody says 


[00:14:03] Gina: presently that's not over the course of history. 


[00:14:07] Ben: And like Cody said, they will be returned to life. 


[00:14:11] The problem is, is that they don't believe in a hell. They believe that there's just nothingness. Either you become resurrected, and then you just live as a person. See, 


[00:14:20] Cody: and I don't think that necessarily negates the gospel, because there's a lot of annihilationist Christians who don't believe in a literal hell. 


[00:14:31] They believe that everybody just goes poof at the end. And I can see scriptural evidence of why people get there. 


[00:14:38] Ben: In a sense, but you don't really get the weeping and gnashing of teeth. 


[00:14:43] Cody: It depends on how, you know, the, the argument that's made for that is eternal life for everybody then? Because if you're eternally 


[00:14:54] Ben: It's an eternal death. 


[00:14:55] That's the, the argument from the Christian perspective. But I do agree. 


[00:14:58] Cody: Yeah. 


[00:14:58] Ben: So Yeah, just saying that you don't believe that hell exists, but rather that people are just going to be poofed out of existence. I don't believe that that excludes you from being Christian. And also just saying that you don't believe that there's an eternal spirit. 


[00:15:13] That, I mean, I find it really hard to believe that, Is in scripture because it's not because we are 


[00:15:20] Cody: I don't know how they get there. Yeah, especially with you know Paul talking about how the flesh can't inherit the kingdom of God 


[00:15:28] Ben: but there were even at the time of Christ there were the chief priests and there were the Sadducees didn't believe that there was a Resurrection essentially they believed that there was no spirit and they didn't believe in angels or anything And I find that hard to believe considering they're literally angels in the Bible, but whatever So, even at that time, they were still considered to be Jews, and they were considered to be religious leaders. 


[00:15:48] They were just a different sect within the realm of Judaism. So, for most of these things, I would say that they're not individually enough to say that they're not Christian. However, the idea that Christ isn't Christ, that he's not actually God, I would say that that's enough. No, I agree. How about you, Gina? 


[00:16:06] Gina: The things I want to say probably don't sound very loving, but I, I feel that it is pretty misleading the way that they try to recruit new members. They use innocuous terms like Bible study or, um, you know, I want to tell you the truth and it can be extremely misleading and It seems very tactical. I don't like it. 


[00:16:38] I didn't like it when they tried to recruit me when I was a teenager. Like a lot of red flags went up for me. So I'm very sensitive to spiritual stuff because of my upbringing and, um, just the secretive nature and like the, we're going to loop you in, but we're not going to tell you everything until you make the commitment kind of thing really got to me. 


[00:16:59] So, like, no, to answer your question, but, I don't know. My opinion is, is based less on true knowledge of the religion and more on personal experience. Just felt very 


[00:17:13] Ben: Grooming. 


[00:17:14] Gina: Grooming, yeah, that's a good word. Made me very uncomfortable 


[00:17:18] Ben: and again when you look at a lot of their websites and a lot of their material They are trying very hard to position themselves to seem as close to full Christianity as possible Now there is something that you mentioned earlier Gina and I think this is a pretty good example of something that again It's a doctrine. 


[00:17:35] That's not right But doesn't threaten salvation. And it's the one where they can't undergo any medical procedure that requires a blood transfusion, since they consider that to be a form of consuming blood. That's weird, but I wouldn't say that that excludes you from being a Christian. 


[00:17:51] Cody: No, I mean I can see where that, you know, the consumption of blood is condemned in the Bible. 


[00:17:58] So if you truly believe that's a form of consuming blood, I can see how you get there, but I 


[00:18:05] Gina: see that as very similar to like the people who It, like, there's a Christian sect that handles snakes, and if you get bit, then you're not supposed to have medical intervention. It sort of reminds me of that type of thing. 


[00:18:17] I don't think it prevents you from being a Christian, but it's definitely odd. 


[00:18:22] Ben: The doctrine itself is not true. However, if you believed it and you were a full Christian, and I could pick, I imagine there are some Christians who believe something kind of like this. Then yeah, I would say you're still a Christian, but I, that's just not something that I find to have a whole lot of biblical backing to it, though there is a biblical defense for the position. 


[00:18:42] Yeah, 


[00:18:43] Cody: but it's, yeah, 


[00:18:45] Ben: yeah. So I mentioned at the offset that there are some external factors aside from the core principles that make it a bit clear that this is kind of a cult. One of the big things that Jehovah's Witnesses are known for is predicting the end of the world. Yeah. Yeah. 


[00:18:58] Cody: How many times now? 


[00:19:00] Ben: Oh, quite a few. Um, so the first time that they said the world was going to end was in 1878. Uh, then they predicted it again in 1881, then again in 1914, then again in 1918, then again in 1925, and then again in 1975. But yes, as far as 1975 goes, they did claim that that was going to be the start of the millennial reign and that Armageddon was going to happen, but Yeah, as far as them claiming that this is, we are currently in the millennial reign, I don't know that that's the case. 


[00:19:32] I couldn't find anything solid that said that. It's confusing because their stance on it has changed multiple times. In the aftermath of the 1975 prediction, that the world would end. There was a lot of blame shifting and a lot of, well, it didn't happen because of you guys. And well, we were just misinterpreting things and, you know, a thousand years like a day, that kind of thing. 


[00:19:53] Watchtower tends to kind of cover all this stuff up and they give different reasons for why each individual prophecy happened. And when people fall away, they said, well, you just didn't believe to begin with. This was a test of your faith and you failed the test and now you just don't believe 


[00:20:08] Cody: the biggest thing for me that screams caught with good old JW is the grooming, like you mentioned, Gina, that is very easy to see, especially if you talk to any missionaries. 


[00:20:23] I think they still call them missionaries that door knock the door knockers. 


[00:20:28] Gina: We have a neighbor that writes us hand beautifully handwritten letters. Like twice a year. 


[00:20:34] Cody: Although I wish you saw the missionaries more because I always like to play the game Is it a JW or a Mormon? But the the conditioning and the 


[00:20:46] Gina: the lack of transparency 


[00:20:47] Cody: the lack of transparency and like okay all of these predictions happens, you know the all these dates they frown and shun on you if you go looking back and past watchtower postings You Because a lot of them contradict each other. 


[00:21:05] And if you bring that up, you will be shunned. And you know, basically what Ben said already, you just don't have enough faith. It is kind of the general explanation and if you have questions in, in the faith, those are highly frowned upon and you will be shunned. And like there are very, if you have questions or if you leave the faith or if you know anybody outside the faith, you're cut off. 


[00:21:33] Gina: I find it very concerning that there's no windows. In the, like, meeting buildings that they have, I just, like, there's a saying I love to tell my students, which is, like, when you put things into the light, it becomes for God, but when you keep things in the dark, then it's the devil's play thing. And that's sort of the feeling that I get about having a building that's supposed to be for worship, but you're not allowing light inside and you're not allowing anything to come out either. 


[00:22:04] It's very unsettling for me. 


[00:22:07] Cody: Yeah, I never got the no one does thing. 


[00:22:09] Gina: I don't really understand it. I've never looked into it or asked, but. 


[00:22:13] Ben: From everything that we've looked at that's kind of outside of the core assumptions of their faith, the way that they go about pursuing it, the way they go about trying to bring people in, and then the way they express it through the claim that, you know, the world's going to end and them being wrong multiple times, just the idea that they're led by false prophets is enough. 


[00:22:33] In my estimation, and I think that's one of my biggest takeaways here is that you can have doctrines that may be wrong, but still don't threaten salvation necessarily. However, your leadership is 100 percent corrupt, and they are constantly lying to you, and they are claiming to be prophets, and they are claiming to hear from God, and they clearly are not. 


[00:22:55] That is the dangerous thing. That is the thing that sets them apart as a cult. 


[00:22:58] Gina: It's very manipulative. 


[00:23:00] Ben: Yeah, 


[00:23:00] Cody: with both, and that's a common theme with Mormon and Jehovah's Witness, but like I'm not even against the idea of the potential of a prophet, like even if it, even like, you know, if Ezekiel or Jeremiah, any of those came and you know, somebody had the authority like that, I'm not even opposed to that, but these guys do not let you question them or test them. 


[00:23:26] Mhm. Like the prophets of the Bible were tested and when they get something wrong, it's, you know, Oh, by, by the way, I was, I miscalculated this data. God was just testing you. 


[00:23:39] Gina: I know that this. Like, we're focusing on these two, but I'd like to kind of loop in New Age Spiritualism here at the end. Yeah, sure. 


[00:23:47] Cause it's important. Um, because a lot of what we've seen in Mormon and Jehovah's Witness religion is stuff that's kind of been passed around in New Age Spiritualism among other religious beliefs too. It's kind of a mishmash, but you know, what would be your response to somebody who says, I'm a prophet. 


[00:24:08] Or, I'm a person that can receive messages from the dead, or a biblical person, um, like a character from the Bible. Because you don't really hear that in these contexts, but in New Age Spiritualism, that's something that's very prevalent. So what would be your response to that type of prophecy as somebody that believes or doesn't believe? 


[00:24:35] Cody: Get behind me, Satan! That's a reasonable response. Flee from me, demon. 


[00:24:40] Gina: Is it demonic? 


[00:24:43] Cody: Again, I don't think the Bible, and I don't know if I said it on this one or a past one, I don't think the Bible tells us to do things that are unreasonable. So the fortune telling child that Paul cast, that, you know, got frustrated with and cast the demon out, or, you know, the Calling Samuel up that Saul had in the Old Testament. 


[00:25:04] I don't think that stuff is untrue and 


[00:25:08] Gina: impossible 


[00:25:09] Cody: for us because it is also told, we're also told not to mess with those things. So I don't think we're told not to mess with something that's not real. That's not logical and we don't serve a God. That's illogical. 


[00:25:23] Gina: Hence the name of the podcast. 


[00:25:25] Cody: So Do I think that stuff can happen? 


[00:25:28] Do I think there's a potential? Yes. Do I think, you know, people actively hear from demons? No, I think it's more, you know, voices inside their head or them trying to promote themselves. 


[00:25:40] Gina: So in my personal experience, I can say that I've never witnessed a miraculous healing in a church and I've never heard somebody speak in tongues. 


[00:25:50] But I have been raised in an environment where it was very commonplace to have seances and to have things spoken that were true. Like, weirdly, somehow people knew things. So, I like that you bring that up, but I also don't necessarily agree with you. Because I believe that we do have a certain amount of access to darkness if we chose that path. 


[00:26:17] And I do think that, like, Satan is not all knowing, but I do think that he knows our weaknesses. And I think that, um, This type of prophecy is an exploitation of that weakness, if that makes sense. 


[00:26:31] Ben: So one, while I do have my disagreements with the Catholic Church, one of the things that they are actually very, very good about is documentation for possessions and exorcisms. 


[00:26:42] And Like their documentation on this is very extensive. They have the names of a lot of demons, and they have recorded instances of demonic possession. They have people who are not Catholic and who are not Christian, who they will hire on, uh, that are psychologists. They're highly 


[00:26:58] Cody: educated. 


[00:26:58] Ben: Yes, highly educated people who, again, are not affiliated Is this to 


[00:27:02] Gina: determine mental illness versus Yes. 


[00:27:04] Okay. 


[00:27:04] Ben: Because if you have someone who doesn't even believe in this stuff to begin with, come in and say, Oh dude, that, that dude's possessed. Then clearly that dude's possessed. And I saw an interview with one of these guys who was an atheist before he went into working with the Catholic church. And he explained to the Catholic church that he didn't believe in possession to begin with. 


[00:27:22] And that's why the Catholic church said, yes, that's why you're perfect because you don't believe. And so, yeah, there are these guys who will be brought in and they'll do mental assessments. And there are times where people aren't possessed at all. They're just kind of crazy. They need lithium, they need treatment, and then they'll be fine. 


[00:27:37] And then there are other times where there are people who have been genuinely possessed. And they genuinely need the demon excised from their body. And there are other times they, they make the distinction between demonic possession and demonic oppression, where there are people who may tend towards a lot of this new age spirituality and will actively seek information from spirits. 


[00:27:59] And they think that they're benign, but it turns out they're not benign at all. They're demons. And so they'll receive power. They'll receive knowledge. They'll abilities from these demons. And then At first it seems kind of amicable, and it seems kind of fun, kind of nice, and they get information, but then it starts to get scary, and then they can't turn anything off, and they feel like there's something watching them at all times, and it gets worse and worse and worse. 


[00:28:23] And that's not every instance. There have been instances that seem like there's just someone who just randomly gets something, and it turns out that there was some kind of demonic oppression, at least according to the Catholic Church, and I believe them on this. But the point is, is that there is spiritual stuff. 


[00:28:37] And you're right, Cody. There's a reason we're told not to mess with this stuff. We're told not to participate in witchcraft. We're told not to participate in sorcery. And in the biblical context, that essentially says you're not supposed to try to commune with spirits to get power, and you're not supposed to consume drugs to alter your state of consciousness. 


[00:28:53] And we can go into reasons for why the Bible might claim that, but the end, the ultimately, the end result is the same. We're told not to do these things. And a lot of New Age spirituality leans heavily into that. They lean heavily into taking things like psilocybin to alter their state of consciousness to try to access the spiritual world. 


[00:29:09] They try to take power from spirits, and they have spirit guides that help them, and all sorts of crazy stuff. That is all possible, that's all doable, and it's all evil. And if you participate in that, If you try to speak to the dead, if you try to gain access to information about the world around you through a method other than God, and if you think you have the power to do all of this, that also is something that sets you apart from Christianity. 


[00:29:35] It doesn't matter if you believe that the good exists, that there are good spirits and bad spirits, or that Jesus exists and he's part of the light. There is a lot of that in New Age spirituality that I've seen. 


[00:29:46] Gina: Yeah, I was gonna bring that up. 


[00:29:47] Ben: And there are a lot of mediums. I even saw an interview with a medium who became a Christian, and she talked a lot about that kind of thing, the New Age spirituality, how she would talk to people about Jesus. 


[00:29:57] She would even pray with people before a seance, or before she would give them a spiritual reading, because Jesus is a part of the light. It's just he's one of many things in the light. And those other things that you're going to try to reach for, if you're leaning into this, aren't good. Said before, if it's not God, it's not good. 


[00:30:13] Gina: Yeah, the biggest thing that, the biggest argument that my mom has made is like, I'm not hurting anybody, but then like Jesus said, he's the light of the world and what I'm doing is light. 


[00:30:23] Ben: Well, let's say that you weren't hurting anyone else aside from yourself. Do you own yourself? 


[00:30:28] Gina: It's a great question. As Christians, I mean, no. 


[00:30:31] Ben: We've been bought. The price for your sins has been paid, but you can reject that. And if you decide that you own your own life, you can do whatever it is you want with it. And it doesn't matter what this Jesus dude says, you're just gonna do your own thing. That is a rejection of the Lord. So, yes, it may be your life. 


[00:30:50] That doesn't mean that it belongs to you. 


[00:30:53] Gina: Go ahead. 


[00:30:53] Ben: The 


[00:30:53] Cody: dangerous thing is the New Age movement is making its way into the church. So, the church, I mean, starting at the Reformation, seemed to swing completely right against any kind of spiritualism. 


[00:31:11] Gina: Meaning like charismatic type. Is that what you're talking about? 


[00:31:14] Yes. Yeah. 


[00:31:15] Cody: So like anything spiritual, anything that didn't make sense, like to the 


[00:31:21] Gina: point, 


[00:31:21] Cody: yeah. To the point, like Luther had his own Bible that, you know, kind of segregated certain books because they were too spiritual and they didn't make literal sense in his contextual viewpoint. So he either wanted to get rid of them or didn't hold as much weight to them just because they were so far out of his purview. 


[00:31:45] And you have that start then. And now we're getting back, okay, There is this spiritual aspect to God. We read about it in the Bible. Why are we not experiencing that in the church? And then in comes the New Age movement. 


[00:31:59] Gina: Well, you hear about revival, and everybody wants to see revival, and very few people actually have. 


[00:32:06] And I think that we're all so desperate for those big feelings that we're turning to the quickest thing. That's my opinion. Did you have a thought? 


[00:32:13] Ben: Yeah, I do think that a lot of these things are tied to a pendulum that swings one way for one generation and another way another. And there has been a focus at one time on trying to get us back to something that's solid. 


[00:32:26] That our focus should not be on spiritual things and on what God can do for you, but rather on what he tells us to do. So living a righteous life. According to what God tells us is righteous, being a good person, and then adhering to the Great Commission to spread his word. There's value in that, but at the same time, you're denying God his power. 


[00:32:45] You're denying God his place in your life. Because when you look at the early church, yes, they lived that way, but they relied heavily on God's power and influence in their lives. And they loved the Lord and they wanted to commune with him constantly. And God worked incredible miracles through these people. 


[00:33:01] And he wants to do the same with us today. And if you decide you're not going to let him do that because that's just too spiritual or too weird? I understand the fear. 


[00:33:12] Gina: Yeah. 


[00:33:12] Ben: But it's something where you have to trust the Lord. 


[00:33:15] Gina: I've lived with that fear personally. 


[00:33:16] Ben: I have too. 


[00:33:17] Gina: It's very hard to overcome the connection that my family has with new age spiritualism, the occult satanic ritual, which my mother would totally deny ever being a part of, but that's exactly what it is. 


[00:33:32] Because I never wanted to mimic any of that. And I think it's inhibited me in some ways in my faith as a Christian, because I've been a Christian now for almost eight and a half years and like, since I got baptized, um, and I was coming to church before that, but. I have really only in the last three years entertained the idea of spiritual gifts in myself and it's just a fine, fine line, but I definitely think it's wrong to let fear prevent you from communion with God. 


[00:34:06] It's just you have to be very discerning and cautious. And where you allow that to take you and what you're curious about and what you're asking God for. Because there's a, there's a difference in intention. Like my mom's intention is to become so enlightened that she is God. And in her mind, she believes that she is a God, which is still You know, she has power, crystals have power. 


[00:34:30] Her life experiences, her past lives have elevated her into this enlightened being that has these abilities. I don't believe that for a second, but her intention is more self and that's totally missing the point of our relationship with God. It has nothing to do with our abilities, it has everything to do with his. 


[00:34:50] So having that be my compass has been helpful, but it's definitely been strange and I'm glad that we. I was kind of dreading having this episode because I was like, well, Mormons and Jehovah's witnesses are not really at the forefront of our lives. And we don't really deal with them very often. And they're a minority, but hearing how large their churches are, it really is a meaningful conversation because not only is it a large population, but it's also, it has, Different similarities to so many different things that could be true, but they're not. 


[00:35:25] Ben: And they approach a deviation from Christ in such a bizarre, separate way. Where Mormons are very much into, it doesn't matter if there's evidence. It doesn't matter if you can prove it. As long as you feel it, as long as you can say that you're certain of it, then it's certain, and it's true. And Jehovah's Witnesses are, okay, so, all of this is wrong, and you have no proof that it's right, and we have the only version of the Bible, and what the Bible says, we will adhere to 100%, and we're not going to take blood transfusions, because this part in the Bible may be interpreted that way, and we're not going to do any celebrations whatsoever, because those are all pagan. 


[00:36:02] It's such a bizarre puritanical reversal of that, where there is almost no feeling, It's like there is no spirit inside of you that can be moved. There's nothing spiritual about you that God can commune with. And so all that's left is what you do. And so, yes, there's not an enormous, ridiculously crazy number of either Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormons. 


[00:36:23] There are millions of them to be sure, but in comparison to full Christianity, which is well over the billions, and Islam, which is in the billions as well. It's nothing that's, you know, absolutely out of the ordinary or unexpected. But still, Looking at them and looking at New Age spirituality, you see that there is some commonality there. 


[00:36:43] You can see how that can slip in, and how different temptations from even Christianity's past can slip in, and slowly corrupt an idea to the point where it starts to detach. And it can no longer help someone. At least, not save them. Because like we said, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormonism, and even New Age spirituality, to an extent, can be helpful in addressing a specific problem at a specific time. 


[00:37:07] If you're a drug addict and then you find some Transcendent value. You suddenly realize that you maybe were a militant atheist and you lost all hope. And then new age spirituality comes in and then you think, wow, spirits and something beyond me exists. It gives 


[00:37:21] Gina: people confidence that they didn't have. 


[00:37:24] Like my students, they're like, well, I sleep better or I'm a better person or I'm happier, like. Just because of a rock? 


[00:37:30] Ben: It introduces people at the very least to the value of faith or belief. Not that I condone teaching it, but it's a step closer to the truth than where they were before. It's like Joy Lewis said. 


[00:37:43] Joy Lewis was the wife of C. S. Lewis. When she was looking at different religions around the world, she said that some had wisdom to an extent, but none were like the presence that she found the night that God came to her. And when she found Christianity, that was the God she knew. That was the God that came to her at the time when she was desperate, and she was vulnerable, and she was alone, and comforted her. 


[00:38:06] That is the only faith that can save. There are things that are closer and things that are far away. And yeah, it's better for you to be closer, but it's best to be right. 


[00:38:14] Cody: That's why theology and doctrine is important. 


[00:38:17] Ben: Absolutely. But that does beg the question, if there are things that are closer to the truth, is there anything that we can learn from them? 


[00:38:26] Gina: Definitely. 


[00:38:27] Ben: So what would you say are some lessons that we can take away from New Age spirituality, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Mormonism? 


[00:38:33] Gina: I think for me, I mentioned it before, but the grooming aspect, if I were to talk to another person about Jesus, like I know what not to do because of Jehovah's Witness and how I interacted with them. 


[00:38:49] And I also know what to put hope in because of my mom, you know, like her hope, like she would freak out if anybody touched her crystals because their energy would be on them and she would have to cleanse them and this whole anxiety attack just about. a rock. And it's like, no, but your hope is in something so much high. 


[00:39:08] Like my hope is in so much, something so much higher, more powerful. And, um, I don't, I don't need that kind of authority or power. To have hope and peace and a really, really fulfilling life. And so, like the lessons I guess are more about what not to do for me, but it's been very helpful when evangelizing and speaking to other people through discipleship because I would never want somebody to feel like I tricked them into believing something. 


[00:39:35] I 


[00:39:35] Cody: mean, something you can learn from Mormonism and both kind of in tandem is their, their knack for evangelism. You don't see a lot of that in, you know, the, the bigger C Christianity. It's, you know, most Christians in America anyway are, I go to church to be fed and I do nothing outside of that. And I'm not saying that to be mean, but that is the general stance of most Americans. 


[00:40:05] There is no door to door knocking and, oh, you can make the argument, that's annoying, okay, great. There's no talking about your faith with other people for the majority. of non denominational or Baptist or, you know, any of the, the Christians that you would still consider Christians as far as, you know, Catholics even, I don't think their evangelism is as on point as Mormonism and Jehovah's Witness. 


[00:40:35] Ben: I agree, they do focus a lot on evangelism, and I would say that in the way that they do it, just as it's important for us to take that lesson, that doing it is important, the motivation behind it, I think, is also very important to take a lesson for the opposite reason, because their motivations behind evangelism are not particularly good. 


[00:40:57] For Jehovah's Witnesses especially, because essentially that's, it ties into whether or not you're going to be one of the 144, 000, and it's tied into a workspace theology. It's, it's how you're saved. It's okay, do this, and hopefully you are not going to be atomized at the end of the world when Armageddon happens. 


[00:41:15] Gina: Like we evangelize as Christians because we believe that there's a hope for their future That is the same as the hope for our future But in that in Jehovah's Witness like you're basically saying I'm gonna use you I'm gonna climb on you to get to a higher level But I don't have any expectation that you're ever going to be that because then we would be in competition 


[00:41:37] Ben: Yes, you're using other people to gain a higher honor And it's in part due to social pressure from the church. 


[00:41:43] It's in part due to your expectations for the afterlife. But it's not generally because you have a genuine love for the Lord and you want to share that with other people. Now, there are absolutely Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses who approach it that way. I'm not saying that literally all of them evangelism. 


[00:42:02] Because they have to or because they get something out of it, but that is something that's built into the system You are told that it's important for you to do this and because you do it Greater honor and greater reward will be in store for you now You can make the case that similar things exist in Christianity But the point is is in the book of Revelation We all cast our crowns before the Almighty and it doesn't matter how much honor how much power how much ability we have in the end All that is laid at the feet of Jesus. 


[00:42:33] We're all made equal, no matter how great or how poor we were as a follower. All of us are the same. So, it doesn't matter how many people we've brought to Jesus, how many crowns we accumulate on our head. In the end, all that is, is glory laid at the feet of Jesus. 


[00:42:47] Gina: What if it's one million? 


[00:42:49] Ben: It's one million crowns you lay down. 


[00:42:51] Gina: Can I at least get a trophy? 


[00:42:52] Ben: You can take that up with Jesus. 


[00:42:54] Gina: Sorry. 


[00:42:57] Ben: But the Apostle Paul doesn't tell you that you're going to get some kind of Maserati or Range Rover or something when you Sorry, you're just not gonna But what about that treasure I'm storing up in heaven? 


[00:43:08] Gina: Our definition of treasure is really jacked up. 


[00:43:11] Ben: Yes. And you find with a lot of these kinds of cults, they rely on that. It's the idea that, no, the treasure is not God's treasure. It's not the fact that you've done something good, that goodness in and of itself is its own reward. It's that, no, he's just going to reward you more when you get there. 


[00:43:27] Gina: Like, think about, I don't know. 


[00:43:30] I can't imagine wanting material wealth in my afterlife because of how complicated and messy it makes life now. Like, I literally love the idea of like laying around in nature with animals and Jesus and just singing songs. Like, I, I love that idea. I can't imagine, like, why would I want to do this all over again? 


[00:43:53] Cody: Yeah, 


[00:43:56] Gina: but to do this all over again, without the limitations and boundaries of a perfect world through our faith as Christians, like, nothing that you guys described tonight about being a Mormon or a Jehovah's Witness provides an opportunity for a sinless, perfect world. And we may have jobs, and we may have marriage, and who knows what heaven is like. 


[00:44:18] And, and we may have something very similar to this, but to like, have the whole point of my life be just to like, recycle it over and over. 


[00:44:29] Cody: I don't know. My own planet sounds pretty awesome. 


[00:44:32] Gina: Only if it comes with like a whole fleet of Range Rovers. 


[00:44:36] Cody: What is it with you and 


[00:44:37] Ben: Range Rovers? 


[00:44:39] Gina: It's the standard for a super pastor. 


[00:44:44] You know I'm really good if I have a Range Rover. 


[00:44:46] Ben: Obviously. 


[00:44:49] Cody: Okay, Snape. Oh, 


[00:44:51] Ben: yes. 


[00:44:52] Cody: He's bringing 


[00:44:53] Gina: out the gloves. 


[00:44:55] Ben: I can teach you to be rich the long So, as a final question to kinda send this all off, how do we reach people like Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormons or people who are engaging in New Age spirituality? 


[00:45:08] Gina: Well I mentioned the story of the guy who sold us our water system who was a Jehovah's Witness and like he Bye! You know, the verse like outdo one another in service. We kind of, Cody and I are just nice people to strangers, I guess, because he was just so astounded that we were like offering him food. 


[00:45:28] And then I made him celery juice and none of that was done with any kind of evangelistic intention, other than just to be nice. And he was the one that said, wow, you guys are so Christ like. And the fact that he was a Jehovah's witness comparing us to Christ meant that he was thinking about it. And I, I think Cody and I just saw that as an opportunity and we prayed, like we left the room and prayed and he watched us through the window praying. 


[00:45:55] And we came back inside and he was like, did you guys just go out there and pray over this decision? And we were like, yeah. And we prayed over you too. And it's just. Just setting that example over and over of just consistent kindness. Like I say all the time, nobody ever got saved because they were called an abomination. 


[00:46:13] And I don't think belittling somebody for what they believe, like they genuinely believe, is ever going to draw them towards Jesus. I think it really does take just imitating Christ. And then, Not just leaving it there, like if you can stay connected somehow, even if it's just like, Hey, I really enjoy getting to know you. 


[00:46:33] Do you want to have coffee sometime and talk? Like trying to develop it further and see where it goes is there's nothing wrong with that. But you have to know that their intention is probably the same for you. 


[00:46:44] Ben: Just building off of what you said, the strongest witness that you can be is one where you are living a life like Christ. 


[00:46:52] And when people see that. They see what you're doing, and they see the quality of your life, and they say, I want that. And a part of that is trust. Sometimes it's going to take you weeks, months, even years, of knowing someone who's not a Christian, or is Christian adjacent, or who's practicing new age spirituality. 


[00:47:09] It may take a very long time for them to trust you enough, to the point where they'll look at your life and think, Okay, I've seen enough of it. And I know enough about you that I can trust you, and I can trust that what I see is real. And it is hard, because a lot of this stuff goes to a person's foundational beliefs. 


[00:47:25] If you tell a Mormon or Jehovah's Witness that what they believe is absolute hooey, you're right, they're going to retreat into their shell. They're going to be like, well, obviously you're the enemy. You don't believe, you're representing the devil, and you're trying to tempt me. But if they trust you, and they know that you love them, and they know that you live a life that is genuinely Christ like, and though they don't agree with us about who Christ is, They do have a respect for him, and then they see that, that level of goodness in you, and that you understand it better than they do, then yeah, they might take that first step and think, maybe I'm wrong. 


[00:47:59] Gina: If you can pull one Jenga block out, you've already destabilized what they believe. And it's a matter of time between, like, earthquakes or whatever in their life that it's gonna crumble. 


[00:48:11] Ben: And for some folks, all it really takes is asking questions, not as much with Jehovah's Witnesses. Like, it's tough, it's tougher with Jehovah's Witnesses. 


[00:48:19] For them, uh, Pastor Mike Winger did a video about what he does, and it's, he actually has a version of the Jehovah's Witnesses Bible. And it's a version that has the original Greek with it. And so they can see that it's one of their authentic books that they can actually read and that they trust. And then he'll go over the actual biblical Greek with them. 


[00:48:38] And then they can see what the Bible actually says. And he'll even use their own version, which is a bit off, but there are parts in it that will still verify that Jesus was the Son of God, that Jesus is God, that he's divine. And so he'll go through that. And then that helps, but in the end, it's still a hostile person. 


[00:48:55] Who's trying to use your own material against you. There's still that barrier between you, but that may be just planting the seed. Maybe that's it. Like you said, you take, you pull out one single block, the whole structure starts to fall apart. And for some people that's enough, but I would say the majority of time, it is going to take time. 


[00:49:13] Gina: My mom has been in New Age Spiritualism since I was about 10, maybe before, but she kept it a secret. And I'm 32 now, and she's still in it, just as deep, if not deeper than she was. And it's taken me years to come to terms with the fact that I can't have the relationship with her that I want. And that's only one small reason. 


[00:49:37] But I pray for her every single day. I've sent her so many letters and books to help her. I've encouraged her to go to celebrate recovery, and my aunt just visited, and my aunt is her sister, and so being in our home for the first time in five years and seeing how different I am and how different my life is, I know she left impacted, and she left motivated to talk to my mom, and so now I've got somebody else chipping away at her, and it just takes a circle of influence. 


[00:50:07] It takes patience and it takes knowing it could never happen, but like with Christ, anything is possible. And I have hope that she is going to go to heaven. I wrote it down on my wall of miracles in advance and I have hope, but it's, it's not an overnight thing, even with your own parents, even with your closest people that are in your life, like you're not going to change their mind immediately. 


[00:50:31] And if you give up because you've had one or two conversations and they're being bullheaded, you're not really doing your part. Like, it can take years, it can take decades to convince somebody. And it's not our job to, to take their place of Jesus and try to save people. Sometimes praying, like what I'm doing is enough, but you can't just give up and write somebody off because like the Bible talks about in second Peter, like God isn't slow to bringing his promises, but he wants every single person to go to him. 


[00:51:04] And that takes a long time. And that's. I think part of why Jesus isn't here right now is because we're not doing our job, and we're not loving people the way that we should, and being patient with people the way that we should. 


[00:51:16] Cody: I'll leave it with a quote from Saint Francis, who was a sissy. Oh, I didn't expect that. 


[00:51:23] No, uh, it's usually attributed to him, but it still is, it's not his, but you should always preach the gospel, but only speak when necessary. 


[00:51:35] Gina: Thank you so much for taking the time to listen to our podcast today. If you liked what you heard, please feel free to subscribe and share and leave a positive review. 


[00:51:45] And if you would like to connect with us on social media, you can do so on Instagram and Facebook at the Logic of God. You can also send us an email at Maine dot the Logic of god@gmail.com. Thanks again for listening. We hope you have a great day.