What Is Calvinism?

[00:00:00] Cody: Hi, thank you for tuning in to the Logic of God podcast. I'm Cody, 


[00:00:19] Gina: I'm Gina, 


[00:00:19] Cody: and I'm Ben. If you're returning, thank you for coming back. And if you are a new guest, welcome. 


[00:00:41] Ben: Today, we wanted to start. launching into a series of us examining specific doctrines that are fairly controversial in the church. We do want to do our best to be unbiased. Obviously, we come into these things with our own biases, but we're going to try to be as fair as possible. So for today's episode, we're going to be looking at Calvinism versus Wesleyanism. 


[00:01:01] So Who was John Calvin? 


[00:01:04] Gina: Who wasn't John Calvin? 


[00:01:06] Ben: The majority of people, I think. 


[00:01:09] Gina: So, he was a French Christian reformer from the early 16th century. His father worked for the Roman Catholic Bishop, and he grew up familiar with Catholicism. He got his master's degree in theology from the University of Paris, and then his father fell out with the Catholic Church, caused him to change his goal from becoming a bishop to studying law. 


[00:01:33] While he was studying law, he came across some of the teachings of Martin Luther, as well as other Protestant writers, and he eventually became a Protestant himself. He was a major contributor to the Protestant Reformation, a movement that challenged the rule of the Pope and authority and teachings of the Catholic Church, and his teachings became the basis for several Protestant denominations, including Presbyterianism. 


[00:01:57] His writings include Institute of the Christian Religion, A Reply to Satellito, and Commentaries on the Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Romans. 


[00:02:08] Ben: Okay, so yeah, good summary of who Calvin was. Now what is it that Calvin taught? What is Calvinism? 


[00:02:15] Cody: Calvinism is going to be, it's covered in Tulip, but essentially it is the belief in predestination and determinism. 


[00:02:25] Gina: What's that? 


[00:02:26] Cody: Yeah, we should cover a lot of the Christianese even, because people don't know. Protestant? Let's start with that one. 


[00:02:32] Ben: We kind of covered that before in covering denominations. Essentially, Protestant is as separation from the Catholic Church in the branching off of the faith of Christianity. 


[00:02:43] There's Christianity at the top, the big C church, then splitting off, there's Catholicism and then Protestants and beneath Protestants, there's a whole bunch of different denominations. 


[00:02:53] Cody: Yep. Okay. Then, What Calvin wrote about and what Calvinism is can be summarized in the acronym TULIP. So he taught Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace, and Perseverance of the Saints. 


[00:03:11] Good job. From memory. Yeah, nice. Struggled there. Done it, did it by a 


[00:03:15] Ben: road. That's nice. That just tells you how great TULIP is as a memory aid. 


[00:03:18] Cody: Yeah. 


[00:03:18] Ben: So starting off, we'll go with Total Depravity. So. What did Calvin teach and what did he mean by total depravity? And the idea is that human beings are naturally evil and they're so evil that we are just completely irredeemable apart from God's forgiveness and his grace. 


[00:03:35] And as a result, while people can do good things apart from Christ, like they can be nice to their neighbors, they can love their children. They cannot actually be good people as their motivations to do those things that are good are based on selfish motives. And the backup that Calvin gave for this. 


[00:03:53] Among other things is, uh, Romans chapter 3, verses 23 through 24. For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Jesus Christ. So, everyone has sinned, we are inherently sinful, and there are plenty of other verses that give us that indication. 


[00:04:10] We are naturally sinful creatures as humans. So, stopping there, first, do we agree, do we disagree, and then two, is this a rib or a spine issue? Is this critical to salvation, or is this something that Christians can disagree on? 


[00:04:24] Gina: What about little kiddos? Like, do we think that five year olds are evil? 


[00:04:29] Ben: Well, Calvin did teach the idea of original sin. 


[00:04:32] This is the idea that we are sinful from birth, so yes, even babies would go to hell because they don't have the opportunity to choose salvation. 


[00:04:41] Cody: So, yay or nay? 


[00:04:43] Gina: Nay. Nay. Lil Sebastian says nay. 


[00:04:49] Cody: Um, do I think it is salvation dependent if you believe or don't believe this? No. I think you can be a Calvinist and be saved, and I think you can be a non Calvinist and be saved. 


[00:05:01] Ben: Okay. Well, addressing this specific item on total depravity and on original sin, is that something that is salvation dependent or is that not? 


[00:05:09] Cody: No, I think that's pretty much, there's a lot of other non Calvinist theologies that agree with the view of original sin. 


[00:05:19] Ben: Gina, what do you think? 


[00:05:20] Gina: My experience with people that are Like very deep into Calvinism is that total depravity almost becomes an excuse So I think that your belief on total depravity could potentially affect your salvation if you're not taking any Responsibility for like sinful behavior that would separate you from an eternal relationship with God If that makes sense. 


[00:05:43] Cody: I don't think they necessarily disagree with that. 


[00:05:47] Gina: Like, how can you repent if you can't help it? 


[00:05:50] Ben: You can't. So we aren't quite to that point yet. 


[00:05:53] Gina: Okay. 


[00:05:54] Ben: Because there are plenty of other denominations and teachings that do also say, State that we are inherently sinful. The question is, do you have the free will to turn from that sinfulness or do you not? 


[00:06:05] We haven't quite gotten to that point in Calvinism yet. That's a point that comes later. Okay, but just starting from the point of we are inherently sinful from birth. Is that a rib issue or is a spine issue? Is that a central issue or is that an orbital issue? Is that necessary for salvation or is it not? 


[00:06:19] Gina: I'm going to go with rib, but I stand by what I said. 


[00:06:24] Ben: Fair enough. I agree. I think this is something that, Christians can disagree on, and a lot of Christians do disagree on it. There is something that is taught in the church called the age of accountability. And it's the idea that children are completely innocent and they're brought into this world. 


[00:06:41] And as they grow older, yes, they do bad things, but they don't understand what it is that they're doing. And once you reach a certain age, you gain the understanding to do evil. And there is some scripture to back this up. There's the idea that when. Adam and Eve ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. 


[00:06:58] It was their understanding of good and evil that enabled them to do evil things. And it was understanding that brought evil into the world. Now there is some debate that can be had about that. I'm not married to the idea. I'm not totally for that idea. But I do find it difficult to make the argument that a newborn child or an unborn child is evil, and so if it dies, it goes straight to hell. 


[00:07:19] That doesn't mean that's wrong. That doesn't mean that it's right. That's my own personal hangup with it, admittedly. 


[00:07:25] Gina: I mean, that would be a big one for me as well, having had three children pass away before they were born, and having visions from God. Reassuring me that they were with him and not sent to hell 


[00:07:37] Ben: and the Calvinist rebuttal to that would be okay But that's what you would like to happen. 


[00:07:40] Gina: Yeah, 


[00:07:41] Ben: that doesn't mean that's what did happen and for me personally I would agree with you and there are similar things that have happened in my own family that have led us to that conclusion, but Regardless that doesn't mean that it's right And it is important to keep ourselves open to the possibility of that, but I do agree with you. 


[00:07:56] I think that is valid assurance, even if it's not specifically scriptural, that's the reason. I 


[00:08:01] Gina: mean, I'm very confident that it wasn't wishful thinking that gave me a vision. 


[00:08:07] Ben: Still, if we're going to argue a point as theology, it does need to be something that's know, 


[00:08:12] Gina: yeah. 


[00:08:13] Ben: So, that leads us to, okay, do we agree with it or disagree with it? 


[00:08:17] And we're kind of addressing that here. Okay. Yeah, I don't agree with this completely. I do agree that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. I do have trouble pinning exactly where I am on this specific issue, because yes, absolutely we all sin, and it's much easier for me to do evil than it is for me to do good. 


[00:08:35] You don't have to convince me that I have a sinful nature. And you don't have to convince me that I do need God, and that apart from God I'm nothing. The question is, for a newborn baby, or for young children, is that an evil nature that condemns them to hell if they die and they haven't become Christian or haven't accepted Christ? 


[00:08:53] That I'm not certain of, but it would be difficult for me to argue specifically for that. I don't know about you guys. 


[00:09:02] Cody: To expand on this a little bit further, the idea of total depravity and original sin started with St. Augustine and John Calvin expanded on his teaching of it. But he also affirmed the teaching of inherited sin from Adam. 


[00:09:19] Like not just we're inherently sinful, but we inherited the sin of Adam. the entire human race too. And that is something that I struggled to find in a biblical standpoint that we inherit the sin of our forefathers. But I do agree that we're all sinful. We all have a sin nature. We all fall short of the glory of God. 


[00:09:41] Ben: Well, and there's also the question of Whether or not we're all inherently sinful, like, we can say that even children, even babies are inherently sinful or have a sinful nature. The question is, does Christ's sacrifice cover all sin and all sinful nature? 


[00:09:56] Gina: So, for me, I don't know, like the argument that I have with Cody a lot is more to do with like human psychology. 


[00:10:04] If you think about the way that babies are born and like moms have their babies and then they're like instinctively wired to do certain things. Like you could say that an infant wanting to nurse with its mother and being hungry and crying when it doesn't get taken care of is like a form of selfishness. 


[00:10:27] But it's also like we're hardwired to survive. And I have a very hard time putting inherent evil in the same category as a human being that has been designed by God. Like to know what to do to survive and I have three kids. So like I don't know like I just can't equate the Tendencies with total depravity with my children. 


[00:10:54] So I just have a really hard time agreeing with it 


[00:10:57] Ben: Well, there's a reason we don't apply Adult human laws to children, 


[00:11:01] Gina: but even so, when you talk about the age of account accountability, usually that's like 12 to 13 


[00:11:07] Ben: usually 


[00:11:08] Gina: my daughter, my oldest daughter is 12 and she made the decision like 15 months ago to get baptized, but she's made some poor life choices since then. 


[00:11:17] That doesn't mean to me that she's lost her salvation, though, or anything. It's more just she's still learning. But I do believe she has come to a point where she knows better. Different 


[00:11:28] Ben: than the other little ones. Yeah. Yeah. 


[00:11:30] Gina: Yeah. 


[00:11:31] Ben: I can remember for myself when I was a kid, I did a lot of stupid stuff, but it was because I didn't understand the rules of the world yet. 


[00:11:38] I acted purely out of ignorance. And that's why my parents were much more gentle with me when I was making dumb decisions as a kid. Versus when I was making dumb decisions as a teenager, or worse yet, dumb decisions as a full adult. We all recognize that there are stages of life where we have more and more responsibility. 


[00:11:55] And it's tough to imagine a world in which God doesn't apply the same reasoning to us. And there's the point where Christ is being crucified and he says, What did his father forgive them for? They don't know what they are doing. Even God recognizes that there is an element of intent in evil. These people were acting thinking that they were doing justice, and they weren't. 


[00:12:14] And so he was asking for forgiveness for them. Now again, that doesn't mean that this doctrine is wrong in saying that all of us are sinful from birth. But it is an objection, and I do think it's a valid objection, even if it's not 100 percent grounded in scripture, I do think there are certain points that do need to be addressed here. 


[00:12:32] Gina: We definitely wrestle, and God acknowledges this throughout scripture, we definitely wrestle with things like pride and ego and, um, love of money and possessions and things like that. So I can see where, you know, that wrestling could be interpreted as that type of depravity, even if we're not feeling like murdering or pillaging or whatever, but we still have these small voice kind of the thing inside of us that says like, well, what about me? 


[00:13:00] Where's mine? And kind of a thing. 


[00:13:02] Ben: Yeah, all sin gets between us and God. That's the idea. You don't have to be a murderer for your sin to start interfering with your life and God's life. It's the idea that you are choosing your own path separate from what God wants from you. You thinking, Cody? 


[00:13:14] Cody: I am. 


[00:13:14] There's a couple of good quotes on this. Maya Angelou is one of them. And the, I can't remember the quote word for word. Are you 


[00:13:25] Gina: quoting poetry? I 


[00:13:27] Cody: am. Yeah. She talks about. How the, all the evil that exists in the world, every human being is capable of that, but on the reverse side, all of the good in the world, every human being is also capable of that. 


[00:13:42] And then. Jordan Peterson in Maps of Meaning also covers something similar on this topic where he's studying the, the behavior of inmates and aggression and, and inmates and that type of mentality. And he kind of pushes himself to what would it take for himself to come to the point of physically harming another person. 


[00:14:06] And he got to that point while he was going through College classes and stuff just an instinctively like he talks about Jabbing a pencil in the back of somebody's head or something like that and he didn't know where that came from But it's also this he was around that type of behavior. So it kind of influenced him as well 


[00:14:25] Ben: Yeah, he recognized that he was not only capable of doing horrible things But it would be very easy for him to flip to the point where he could do them. 


[00:14:33] Yeah And, again, it's important for us to remember that Scripture is the standard here. And that should be the thing that informs us on the eternal concepts that we're talking about. And this is an eternal concept, salvation and the inherent sinfulness of humans. I think all of us here absolutely agree that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. 


[00:14:53] All of us are sinful. All of us need salvation. Agreed. Yeah. The question is whether or not the sinfulness of children is something that's held against them. So point number two 


[00:15:04] Gina: No, it's point number B 


[00:15:07] Ben: point letter B the you and to loop stands for unconditional election and For unconditional election. 


[00:15:15] It's the idea that God has set aside a specific number of people to be saved by him 


[00:15:20] Gina: Wait, are you talking about Jehovah's Witness again 


[00:15:22] Ben: sort of? 


[00:15:27] So, everyone not chosen by Him to save is destined for hell due to their inherent sinfulness. He does not set aside people to be saved based on intelligence or wisdom, or because He knew that you would choose Him if He gave you the opportunity. Rather, He knew these selected people before the world was created, and He chose them before they were born and loves them unconditionally based on no effort or doing on their part. 


[00:15:52] And this does imply that God does not love those who are not saved. 


[00:15:57] Gina: I feel like you just threw together both religions from the last episode and read me a paragraph about them. 


[00:16:03] Ben: Both Mormonism and Jehovah's Witnesses? Yes. So it is a little bit reminiscent of that, just a little bit. But what do you guys feel on that? 


[00:16:11] Because they do have some, uh, Scripture to back this up. First, they will quote Isaiah chapter 46, verses 10 through 11, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose. Calling a bird of prey from the east, the man of my council, from the far country I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass. 


[00:16:35] I have purposed and I will do it essentially saying whatever God wills is going to happen. Then Romans chapter nine, verses 14 through 16. What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means, for he says to Moses, I have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. 


[00:16:55] So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God who has mercy. So, full stop there. What do you guys think? 


[00:17:04] Cody: I would like to throw one more in that backs up Calvinism. It's later on in Romans. Yeah, go for it. Has the potter no right over the clay to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 


[00:17:18] That is a constant source text for Tulip. 


[00:17:23] Ben: So once again, do we feel like this is a spine issue or a rib issue? 


[00:17:28] Cody: This one is more leaning on spine issue for me, because this gets into more of the determinism side of Calvinism. 


[00:17:39] Gina: What's determinism? 


[00:17:41] Cody: Determinism is absolutely everything is predestined, foreknown, and determined by God. 


[00:17:48] Ben: Yeah, essentially there is no free will. 


[00:17:50] Cody: At all. Any. None. So we're all robots. 


[00:17:53] Gina: No, it's a dollhouse. 


[00:17:55] Cody: Yeah. Now that's another good explanation for it. We're just toys. We're entertainment. But so this one touches on determinism a little. For me, it kind of nullifies a lot of the gospel as well. Go out and make disciples. 


[00:18:10] I mean, if they're all already selected by God, kind of. 


[00:18:14] Gina: But Cody, you always tell me, are we really called to make disciples or were the disciples called to make disciples? 


[00:18:22] Cody: I do make that, but not too many people do . 


[00:18:26] Ben: Well, and even so let's say that it was just the disciples. Did the disciples have a choice? 


[00:18:31] Gina: Well, Jesus told them to. So no. 


[00:18:34] Ben: Well, no, he, they could have said no. And if it was Judas said, no, 


[00:18:36] Cody: God's will for you to be saved. It wouldn't matter at all. God's will is God's will. So your. 


[00:18:43] Gina: Yeah, but then if God's will was for you to not be saved, then that means he doesn't love you and you're not special. 


[00:18:47] Correct. 


[00:18:50] Cody: Jacob, he loved Esau, he hated I would be Esau. 


[00:18:53] Ben: So for me, I would say that I don't see this as being a spine issue unless you make it that. So the question is, what does your belief in this cause you to do? If this particular part of the doctrine is something that causes you to think, Well, okay, I'm just saved, and that's it. 


[00:19:11] And God chose me, and he didn't choose anyone else, and that's it. And no matter what I do, I am saved from here on out. 


[00:19:18] Gina: Do you get like a form letter that reassures you of that? No, 


[00:19:22] Ben: no. In fact, if you fall away from the faith, then it means you were never saved in the first place. But let's say that you remain saved for the rest of your life. 


[00:19:29] Well, it means that there's literally nothing for you to do. You're just there and God chose you and God is forcing you to be chosen because you couldn't choose anything else. 


[00:19:37] Gina: Does it give you the authority to judge the salvation of other people because you are called and therefore you can identify if they are called? 


[00:19:44] Ben: Well, you don't have a choice. But yeah, as far as it being Hmm I don't truly think it is necessarily a spine issue. I think that if you let it be something that causes you to just stay rooted and not do anything and it poisons your outlook on life to the point where you feel like nothing you do matters, it can cause you to fall out of salvation. 


[00:20:05] I think so. I do disagree with Calvinism on this point specifically. I do think that you can genuinely be a Christian at one time in your life and fall out. And that does necessitate, necessitate free will, unfortunately, but getting aside from that, sticking for now on whether or not it's a spine or a rib issue. 


[00:20:24] Yeah. I think that there are people I've known one or two people. And to be fair, I was actually taught this when I was younger, I was taught that not quite to this degree. Mm hmm. But I was taught that God chooses the people who love him. And so that is essentially this portion of Calvinism. And there are different degrees of Calvinism. 


[00:20:42] So we don't have to get into that quite yet. But yeah, I was taught that God chose me. And there are parts of the Bible that do indicate this. That God does reach out to people. That God does choose people. And he did choose the 12 disciples. He did choose his disciples. His prophets he did choose individual people throughout the Bible and he did know what was going to happen as a result So you can't fully discount this particular interpretation regardless of how much credence you give it So in some way it does have a point and I do think that it's a point worth making Because it is leaning heavily on the idea that God is all powerful That his will is irresistible, and that he does have a plan, and we all believe in those things. 


[00:21:22] And so it's taking that to another degree in logic, which is saying that if you can't deny his will, and he does have a plan, and he's all powerful, and exists in all times, how could he possibly not know what you're going to do? Which is a reasonable point. So I can't fault someone for being a Christian and then looking at all that and saying, well, obviously I don't have free will because he knows everything I'm going to do and I can't resist as well. 


[00:21:48] And I've known some Christians like that. And like I said, I was like that at one point in my life and I was still a Christian. So I would say that again, it depends on how you approach this, what it does to your life. If you continue essentially to live, like it's not the case, you continue to live as if you do have free will. 


[00:22:04] Because you love the Lord and you want to do what's right, then no, I don't think it's a spine issue, but if you let this specific point define your life, then yes, I do think it will be. 


[00:22:13] Gina: It's got a certain element of like mental gymnastics to it because you can't really be certain that you're elected, but you can't really be certain that other people are either. 


[00:22:24] And it takes away some of the purpose behind like evangelism or treating other people with kindness and love. And that kind of brings to question like the verse, God opposes the proud, but shows favor to the humble because the people that I know that believe this tulip letter, you like very strong are extremely prideful people. 


[00:22:45] And to know that God opposes the proud, like I wouldn't want to be God's opponent. So I think it can be a spine issue just from the perspective of pride, um, because you're not then obeying. Pretty much anything else that the Bible says, and if you're not being obedient, like I said before, if you're not repenting, then I don't know that you can be saved. 


[00:23:10] Ben: Well, and the pride is not necessarily something that's being taught as an aspect of the Calvinist doctrine because it says specifically, this is not because of anything that you did or anything you can do or any qualities you have any control over. God chose you before time. So, 


[00:23:26] Gina: but the fact that they're so sure. 


[00:23:29] And the fact that they, like, I've heard people use Calvinism as more like, I know more than you. God said so. You can't question it. Conversation over. I say it in a much less respectful way. 


[00:23:43] Cody: For sure. There's that, those people on every side, but I agree the hyper Calvinists you meet tend to be a little bit more aggressive and close minded. 


[00:23:55] Well, to be fair, they don't have a choice. 


[00:23:57] Gina: That is my 


[00:23:58] Ben: favorite. That's my favorite 


[00:23:59] Gina: button. Does the drum 


[00:24:01] Ben: that 


[00:24:06] Gina: was predetermined. 


[00:24:07] Ben: Yeah. I think this particular point. It's Achilles heel, unfortunately, is the idea that you just don't have a choice. 


[00:24:14] Cody: This one is more of a spine issue for me. I don't think it has to be, but like you said, it can be if you let it, and it tends to be. 


[00:24:24] The Calvinist worldview likes to harp on its view of the sovereignty of God. And so much so that it also makes God the bad guy. 


[00:24:36] Gina: Hmm. I love how you, like in previous episodes, you've mentioned if we don't have a choice with God, like you word it so much better. So you should rephrase it when I'm done butchering it. 


[00:24:49] But it's basically like, if we don't have free will, then we're basically either puppets or we're choosing God out of fear. Not because we actually love him. Do you know what I'm talking about? 


[00:25:01] Cody: I don't know. I like, I do talk about this a lot, but I don't know the specific saying. You say it 


[00:25:06] Gina: all the time. 


[00:25:07] Cody: I do say, I know what you're talking about, but I don't know the saying that you're referring to. 


[00:25:11] Ben: Well, in this particular instance, you wouldn't even be choosing God at all. You couldn't be doing it out of love or fear. He has chosen you. 


[00:25:18] Gina: But then that says so much about the other people, the other not 144, 000. Oh, wait. 


[00:25:25] Cody: Yeah, this one is the determined, so total depravity I can get on board with, like for the most part with some limitations and borders, but the unconditional election is difficult for me. 


[00:25:38] Cause if you truly believe it, then I think it is a spine issue. Like if you act out on your belief, then it is a spine issue. 


[00:25:49] Ben: And the trouble that I have with it. Is that let's say that you're an evangelist and a Calvinist and you're going out into a community and you're thinking okay I'm gonna go out and save some people. 


[00:25:59] Well one it doesn't matter what you say The people who are out there have already been chosen by God to be saved. If you chose not to go out at all and evangelize, these people would be saved anyway. It's not your effort. It doesn't matter what you do. The people who God has chosen will be saved. And He doesn't choose them based on what you are going to do. 


[00:26:17] Your involvement in this is purely incidental. And God can either force you to do it, or he can literally just put the faith in them, directly. So, there's no purpose to actual evangelism. There's no purpose to learning more about God once you're saved. And you can't even learn more about God, because what you know about God is what God has given you to know. 


[00:26:39] Again, it's not based on effort. It's not based on intent. It's not based on your own personal ability. It's nothing that you can improve or lose, either you already have it or you don't. So there's no growth towards God. There's no becoming more like God by your own effort. There's no point in study. 


[00:26:55] There's no point in arguing this. And I have been very confused about why there are Calvinists who will argue and try to convince people of Calvinism when Calvinism doesn't even matter if you believe it or not. 


[00:27:07] Gina: Well, because the argument is always You don't understand because you're not elect. That's the But then I can't 


[00:27:14] Ben: understand. 


[00:27:15] But that's the elitist, 


[00:27:16] Gina: prideful personality that comes out. It's like, well, I'm in the club and you're not, and you can't sit with us. Like, that's the way that it comes across, and I hate it. 


[00:27:26] Cody: It is. I mean, the church has its own clickiness all around, no matter what, but. 


[00:27:32] Gina: People want to belong to a club. They want to feel like they're important. 


[00:27:35] And feeling like they have one up on another person with salvation makes them feel good, and I hate that. Like, if that's how you feel, you should probably go pray on that. 


[00:27:44] Ben: Now, to be fair, there is still the question of God's sovereignty and His will and His power. And if God is existing in all places at all times, and if He is all powerful, and if He does have a plan, and we can't resist His will, then how can we have free will? 


[00:27:59] Cody: The question would be, can you resist God's will? And, unless you believe God willed sin? Then we can resist God's will like you have to affirm that God willed 


[00:28:13] Ben: sin. Otherwise, we have free will what would you say that sin was a part of God's plan? Did that just happen and he had no clue it was gonna happen. 


[00:28:21] Cody: I think he knew it was gonna happen, but God One we know he's a creator God. He loves to create He wants community, just how the church and the relationship and what we read about the relationship between us and Jesus is. So he wants that relationship. I mean, he's a superior being to us, obviously. So he demands worship and honor, but I think we've talked about it. 


[00:28:47] I don't know if it's one that we've released or not, but like the relationship with kids, like why do people want to have kids? And I think it's very much the same reason for God. He wants to equip others to have purpose and harmony in his idea and plan. 


[00:29:08] Gina: I think one of the best examples advocating for what you're saying is the story of Noah and how God regretted making the people that he wiped off the earth and then the civilizations that he has wiped off the earth in the Bible. 


[00:29:24] Like people have made decisions. That have isolated them so far from God that they needed to be destroyed. 


[00:29:31] Ben: But in the instances like where you, you just mentioned. God felt regret. God was grieved at making man. Was that a mistake? 


[00:29:40] Gina: Was, like, all of mankind a mistake? Is that what you're asking? 


[00:29:42] Ben: When, there's the passage in the Bible right before the flood where he says that he feels regret at making man. 


[00:29:48] Did he feel regret because he made a mistake? Did he know that was going to happen or did he not know? 


[00:29:53] Gina: God knows everything. He knows the possibilities. He knows our thoughts before we say them. If He knows our thoughts before we say them, before we've even decided to say them, then He, He does have foreknowledge, but We have the option to choose left or right. 


[00:30:08] Ben: Well, but how would you if he already knows if you're going to choose left or right? 


[00:30:12] Gina: I don't think that Oh, go ahead. 


[00:30:13] Cody: Choice doesn't deter, foreknowledge doesn't determine choice. Like it's, Pastor Dan uses the analogy like that flight 2732 out of West Palm Beach is predestined to go to Atlanta. But, you can choose to be on that flight or not choose to be on that flight. 


[00:30:32] And I think that's a good analogy of kind of foreknowledge and election as well. There can be foreknowledge, but not, and still be choice inside of that. 


[00:30:45] Ben: Well, the trouble with that analogy is that God is the one literally willing things. So the question is, is he willing everything to end up as it is? Or does he know that it's going to be that way and allowing it? 


[00:30:56] And could force things to be one way or the other, but isn't. 


[00:31:00] Gina: I mean, that would imply that God wants people to suffer, wants people to be in pain, wants sin to happen. 


[00:31:07] Ben: Not necessarily. Like, that's a point that C. S. Lewis talks about. It's like, when your mother comes to your room when you're a child and tells you to clean your room, she wants your room to be cleaned. 


[00:31:17] But a lot of the times, when you're a kid, you don't do it. Because you're being rebellious. And if she really wants the room cleaned, she can do it herself. Does she want the room not cleaned when she asks you to clean it? No, she allows the fact that it's going to be unclean, and she's going to have to punish you at some point, and she doesn't want to do that, but the point is she's trying to teach you a lesson. 


[00:31:37] The idea is that God doesn't necessarily want the pain or the suffering that exists in this world, but all of that needs to happen in order for us to have a choice. Because if you don't have something to choose aside from Him, you don't have a choice. And unfortunately, when you're choosing between God and an alternative, the only alternative to there being God is there being nothing. 


[00:31:58] And the nothingness is the pain. It's the suffering. 


[00:32:01] Cody: I do think you can get to a point where choices are determined for you to a certain extent. J. P. Marlin makes the argument for free will, but uses the analogy of jumping out of a plane after you've jumped out of the plane, you know, you're going to touch the ground at some point, but you can't go back on jumping out of the plane and be in the plane again. 


[00:32:25] So 1 choice is going to lead to another 1, no matter what. Whether you open your chute or you just go splat, but there are choices up to that one that you made that still has determined choices. 


[00:32:39] Ben: There's a passage in Esther that I like to cite when talking about free will, and there's a part where Esther is considering whether or not she's going to go and talk to King Xerxes. 


[00:32:48] And Mordecai is sending her letters to encourage her. And he says, Know that God will find a way to save the Jews, even if you don't help. But, you and your family will die. And who knows but that God put you here for this exact purpose. I feel like that kind of encompasses this whole thing. One, God did put Esther at that position. 


[00:33:11] For a specific purpose. Two, Esther had a choice. And unless we consider this to be a complete falsehood or God's lying to us in this particular part of the Bible, we have to assume that it's true. She could have rejected it. But, if she did, she and her family would have died. 


[00:33:28] Gina: This reminds me of the story of your dad and the cheating pastor. 


[00:33:31] Ben: God has a plan. God knows what you are going to do. He lets you make a choice. Now that doesn't mean that we understand the nature of this. We really don't. We can come up with analogies for us to deal with. Kind of try to make sense of it, but in the end God is beyond us And we're not going to understand his infinite nature or his power or his will. 


[00:33:47] We're children reading the instruction manual to a tank. Like, there's nothing we can do here. We can try, but ultimately, I do think that the Bible tells us enough to say that one, God is in control. Two, your choices matter. 


[00:34:00] Cody: Yeah, cause there's another one where Saul has surrounded David, and David prays and asks if he stays, if he'll die, and yeah, God says yes, so he flees. 


[00:34:11] So is, does God, is there a multiverse or? Yeah. So if God foreknew that he would die if he stayed, and then he chooses to go the other way and run and survive, does The foreknowledge is just a split in the multiverse. 


[00:34:25] Ben: Yeah, with God being infinitely powerful and controlling every aspect of your life and every choice that you make, there would be no if. 


[00:34:33] There is only what. 


[00:34:34] Gina: But there are like planets, right? 


[00:34:40] Ben: So like, the solar system. Magnets. 


[00:34:43] Gina: No, I was referring to the Mormon. I know, they're like 


[00:34:47] Ben: other gods, right? No, it's okay. This is like Mars have its own God. 


[00:34:51] Gina: Well, that's self proclaimed it already. Like 


[00:34:57] Ben: he's the God of Mars. Okay. So next up for tulip, we cover the T and U the L is limited or particular atonement. 


[00:35:08] Gina: Why it's there yet? 


[00:35:10] Ben: So the idea behind limited atonement is that Christ was sent to die on the cross only for the people he selected before time to be saved. His sacrifice was not for anyone else, only for the people he has chosen to save. And the explanation that's given for this is that. is the idea that unbelief is a sin. 


[00:35:28] So, if Christ died for all sin, but still sends unbelievers to hell, he would actually be acting unjustly. So, his sacrifice can only be for the people he set aside, and not for anyone else. And the chapter verses that they give in defense for this is John chapter 10, verses 14 through 15. I am the good shepherd, I know my own, and my own know me, just as the Father knows me, and I know the Father, and I lay down my life for the sheep. 


[00:35:55] So he lays down his life for his sheep, according to the verse. 


[00:35:59] Cody: Yeah, the definition within Tulip I don't necessarily agree with. I do believe in limited atonement. So non universalism. Well, there are, not everyone is going to be saved. Yep. And I do think this L was specific to Calvin's time and the, I think it was origin who came up with universalism or kind of steamrolled it. 


[00:36:23] I could be wrong. 


[00:36:24] Ben: I don't know enough about origin to tell you. 


[00:36:26] Cody: He's way before Calvin, 


[00:36:28] Ben: but 


[00:36:28] Cody: that popped up again during the time of Calvin, I believe, but kind of combating that because universalism is not biblical. Agreed. But I don't agree with this definition either, but I would think this is more of a rib rather than spine. 


[00:36:43] Ben: Agreed. Yeah, I think that you can think that not everyone's going to be saved. It's tough in that they're adding some additional points to that. That seemed to be a bit 


[00:36:54] Gina: exclusive. A bit, 


[00:36:56] Ben: yeah, a bit cold too, like. It's tough because we come from a background where the church is called to be very warm and loving and kind, and we're trying to bring the gospel to the world, and that's part of the Great Commission. 


[00:37:09] And so as part of the Great Commission, God hates everyone who's not going to be saved. 


[00:37:14] Gina: The Bible says that God hates five things, but I'm not one. Yay. 


[00:37:19] Cody: No, I think this is very connected to, you know, 


[00:37:23] Gina: The last one. 


[00:37:23] Cody: Yes. I think it's so is the neck. The eye is also 


[00:37:28] Ben: the, I think this is done as a justification for the previous one. 


[00:37:33] Like it's an attempt to try to make certain things meld. So it's a doctrine that's used to try to supplement another doctrine because they see a line in logic and they think, okay, so these two things can't coexist. God can't love literally everybody, but then not choose literally everybody. And then also unbelief if it's a sin. 


[00:37:52] It's something that he can't forgive because if he forgave it, then literally everyone would be saved. 


[00:37:56] Gina: I feel like I'm buying Norwex and it's a pyramid scheme. 


[00:38:00] Ben: Jeez, Gina, tell us what you really think. 


[00:38:03] Gina: I didn't promise to be pro. 


[00:38:07] Cody: No, and like before, there's a lot that we're going against Calvinism here because none of us follow the reformed theological worldview, but there is a lot I respect about Calvinism to you. 


[00:38:19] Uh huh. The free will tend to have a lower view of God's sovereignty and way too much teetering on open theism on the other side. What's open 


[00:38:32] Gina: theism? 


[00:38:33] Cody: Open theism, basically, you know what you're going to eat before God does. Kind of sums it up. 


[00:38:38] Ben: Yeah, God doesn't really have control over anything. 


[00:38:40] Cody: Yeah. 


[00:38:40] Ben: Yeah, I agree like again I think that Calvinists are saved. 


[00:38:43] I think they're every bit as saved as you or I I do think that Just like with people who are so obsessed with free will that they make that a certain part of their essential part of their life I think there are people who take the idea of free will and say because I have the choice I have to choose I have to choose literally everything. 


[00:39:01] And the fact that I need to have a choice in literally everything is a sacred thing. 


[00:39:05] Gina: That's intentional. Like there's an intentionality there. That's valuable. 


[00:39:09] Ben: But it also leads people to make very wrong choices. Like it's part of the idea behind Satanism. It's the idea that choice is the sacred thing and not what you choose. 


[00:39:19] And I think that's a very important aspect that Calvinists and 


[00:39:23] Gina: Satanists. 


[00:39:24] Ben: No, it's so, It's polar opposite ends of the spectrum. There's the one side that is so focused on choice, that they say that regardless of what you choose, it's the choice that's sacred. And then there are people who say you have no choice, because you are being determined by the thing that is holy and pure. 


[00:39:42] And I can see that. Aspects of both sides of that argument that are right. I do think that it's somewhere in the middle It's important and valuable if you choose the right thing, but making the wrong choice is still the wrong choice But you still need to acknowledge that you have a choice to begin with if you don't think you have a choice then it doesn't matter But no, I agree with you. 


[00:40:02] I think that there are definitely positives here and Calvinists do give great deference to God's power and his authority. That above all else. And I think that's very important. 


[00:40:12] Cody: Yeah. I appreciate and respect the view of God that. Calvinism portrays and encourages, I don't value the laziness that it can encourage and we'll cover that more. 


[00:40:26] Ben: So we've covered T U L, now we're at I. Irresistible grace. If God chooses you to be saved, you cannot refuse. It will happen and must happen since God is all powerful and no one can resist His will. And they give the example of John chapter 6 verse 37. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 


[00:40:51] Now, my problem with using that specific chapter and verse that says that God will never cast them out. It doesn't say that you will never leave. It's God's will that everyone will be safe. God loves all of us. It isn't God that's casting us out. It's us who choose to leave. 


[00:41:06] Cody: Yep. Oh, I like that. That's, I mean, it would never be God wanting you to leave, or kicking you out, in my opinion. 


[00:41:13] This is another one I struggle with a lot, in Tulip, because, I don't know how to explain it without being a trigger. 


[00:41:21] Gina: You can always give a trigger warning. 


[00:41:24] Cody: Irresistible Grace, to me, comes across as, like, you have no choices for yourself. Forcing himself on you. It doesn't make sense to me. And I have a huge issue with this one, particularly just because it's connected to the regeneration and all that. 


[00:41:39] And like the, this doesn't make sense. Like if you're regenerated and you have this irresistible grace and the Holy Spirit, like, why do Calvinists still sin at that point? And. 


[00:41:53] Ben: So I feel like a lot of the stuff taught in Calvinism is essentially an author writing a book. And if you're writing a book, all of the characters have no choice in what they do. 


[00:42:02] And you love your characters, and you love the story, and that's why you're doing it. But ultimately, they're less than you, because they're just characters in a story. And they have no choice in what they do. That doesn't mean that it's not valuable. And I think that's the idea behind Calvinist teachings. 


[00:42:17] It's God is the author and we are the story. And I'm not completely against that kind of a thought. I don't think it's right, but at the same time it's not completely wrong. And I do, there are examples of people who talk about how God was essentially a hunter and he pursued them mercilessly. Like that's something that Joy Lewis talks about. 


[00:42:38] That's something that C. S. Lewis talks about. How God was the hunter. He was the jungle cat that silently stalked and then pounced at the moment of weakness. But they both agreed that they had a choice. 


[00:42:50] Gina: But you wouldn't have had a choice if you didn't have a moment of weakness. Agreed. 


[00:42:54] Ben: Now, the question is, are there people who are a part of God's plan, so he chooses them and then uses them, and they didn't have a choice in that? 


[00:43:02] Cody: It's hard, and I don't know where I stand on this. But I see the election and predestination train of thought very prevalent in the biblical characters, but I think it's also very prideful to put ourselves into the position of the patriarchs and the characters that we read in the Bible. We don't hear about the other 600, 000 Israelites that walked around the camp. 


[00:43:32] There's not stories about them and their choice. We hear about God's called and elected prophets and patriarchs and all of that. So I think I see it more in the biblical story, but there's not very much information outside of the main characters, so to speak, in the 


[00:43:52] Ben: Well, even in the case of the biblical stories, if we go with Moses, there was the point where Moses was up Mount Sinai and he was frustrated because the Israelites had done a complete 180 while he was up there the first time and they were making golden calves and stuff. 


[00:44:08] And God said, okay, I'm going to wipe out this generation and we'll start anew. And Moses says, No, please don't do that, because then the nations will think that you're unfair and you're unjust. Please give us another chance. And he does. The interesting thing is that he still ends up wiping out that entire generation, just much later. 


[00:44:24] And it's because of choices that they make, still. Because they're the same people who made these terrible decisions to begin with. If Moses hadn't spoken up and hadn't asked God not to do this, Which he was going to end up doing anyway. He would have entered the promised land. Like it was through the wandering through the desert for 40 years and some of the decisions that he made while he was out in the desert that led to him not entering the promised land. 


[00:44:48] He got to see the promised land. He did not from 


[00:44:50] Cody: a cliff. He 


[00:44:51] Ben: was 120 years old and the Bible makes it clear that he could have lived longer and that he was still in good health, but he died. It was the time. So yeah, it could have been Moses that entered the promised land and did all of those incredible things that Joshua did. 


[00:45:04] Instead, Moses made the choice that he did. He wandered through the desert for 40 years. He died and then Joshua took over. So yeah, I would say even with the patriarchs, there is the element of choice still there. Even with the most important people in the Bible, the choice is still there. 


[00:45:19] Gina: Do you think Moses had a choice when God was like, take your sandals off? 


[00:45:23] Do you think God would have just struck him down? 


[00:45:25] Ben: Okay, forget about it, Aaron. Well, so even with that, like he, in that conversation, he tells Moses to go and to speak to Pharaoh. And Moses is like, I'm terrible at talking. He's like, okay, fine, then Aaron will speak for you. But how much more powerful would it have been if Moses had been the one to speak? 


[00:45:44] Cody: There's a lot of back and forth dialogue that doesn't make a lot of sense in a Calvinistic worldview. 


[00:45:50] Ben: Yeah. 


[00:45:50] Cody: Like the whole interaction where Moses almost dies, like God's angry at him. His wife cuts his son's foreskin off and slaps it on his toes and he's instantly healed. Like, why does that make sense? 


[00:46:03] If he's a elected to do this great thing. Like, why go through that? And it's the same thing with the interaction before destroying Sodom and Gomorrah. Abraham's pleading is that if there's 50 good people, spare them. God goes, comes back. If there's 20, 30, 30, 30, 25, like spare them. He doesn't find anybody. 


[00:46:25] But why even go through that interaction if there's not choice and there's not this Like, showing Abraham that he is fair and merciful and just, if you believe in all this predestination for knowledge determinism. Well, I'm not, oh, sorry, go ahead. 


[00:46:44] Gina: How do you explain, conversely, in the New Testament when Jesus predicts that Peter will reject him three times, and he does? 


[00:46:51] What 


[00:46:52] Ben: do you, what do you 


[00:46:52] Cody: mean, 


[00:46:53] Ben: how do you? 


[00:46:53] Gina: Like, wouldn't that be predetermined? 


[00:46:55] Ben: Well, the question is, did he know that Peter would choose that? Or did he choose it for Peter? 


[00:46:59] Gina: That's what I'm asking you. 


[00:47:00] Ben: I mean, 


[00:47:01] Cody: I don't think 


[00:47:01] Ben: he 


[00:47:01] Cody: chose that for Peter. I think he knew Peter's character. 


[00:47:04] Ben: What is not, I don't even think it's just that. 


[00:47:06] I think, it's tough because we're talking about God's eternal nature, and it's not something we're ever going to fully understand. But my understanding of it is that God exists at all points in time. To him, all time is the present. He is presently there now, experiencing Peter denying Christ and the rooster crowing twice. 


[00:47:24] He's there with us now, as we're speaking with, as we're speaking to one another. He is there with us now when we first met. He is there now when you were first born. All time is the present. So what he's talking about is something he's seeing right now. So I'm watching you guys right now and I can describe what you're doing right now. 


[00:47:41] Does that mean that I'm forcing you to do it? 


[00:47:43] Cody: Yes, I'm on this podcast against my will. 


[00:47:47] Ben: He needs help. I'm 


[00:47:50] Cody: blinking twice if you can. 


[00:47:54] Gina: Well, the only reason that I ask is like, Even for Judas, like, did Judas have a choice? Could Judas have said no? Because some of the prophecy, I think, is confirmed through these predictions of what people are going to do. 


[00:48:09] And in a lot of instances, I think it's hard to determine, as just like your average Christian, was this something that God made happen or is this something that was chosen? Like, Jesus dying on the cross was kind of inevitable. Would they have found another Judas? 


[00:48:26] Ben: Well, the question is These are all 


[00:48:27] Gina: hypothetical. 


[00:48:27] No, 


[00:48:27] Ben: I understand. And they need to be treated as possible because if people have a choice, then there were other possibilities. Other things could have happened. The question is, does he take our choices into account rather than forcing our choices around what he wants? That's the question. Now, I can see arguments for both. 


[00:48:45] I think it's probably somewhere in the middle. It's like what Forrest Gump says, is everything determined or do we have a choice? I think it's a bit of both. And I think that's reasonable. Like we said with Esther. She was put there, which means that there were things that were forced to happen. Now, there's also the idea that like, with Ahab's son, Like, because Ahab repented, the punishment that was meant for Ahab was put on his son. 


[00:49:08] But his son was a terrible person in his own right. It's not like his son was a righteous man, and so an unjust punishment was put on him. Judas was a bad guy. He wasn't forced to be bad. So, it's tough. Was he chosen because he was bad, or was he made bad so that it was going to happen? For him, I would say it's probably both. 


[00:49:25] It's tough to say exactly. 


[00:49:27] Cody: It's hard because, and one of the reasons I hate these conversations on different soteriological views, which That's just a big word for discussion of salvation, but we try to put God in a box, and it's not beneficial at all, most of the time, because we're missing another aspect of the spiritual, which we have. 


[00:49:54] very little knowledge and understanding of, of the influence of what angels and other spirits have on us as well. Because you have the interaction with this, it's a courtroom scene, and I can't remember, which I knew. Basically, God asks. How they're going to convince the king what 


[00:50:15] Ben: yeah, so there's two kings. 


[00:50:16] I think it was King Ahab. Was it Ahab? No, it was the kings of Israel and Judah. I can't remember exactly who it was, but I'm pretty sure it was Ahab and it was after the time of Elisha. But they were going to go to war against the king of Assyria and the king of Judah wanted to inquire of the Lord. 


[00:50:34] Whether or not they should do it and Ahab's like, well, there is one prophet of the Lord left, but I hate him because he's always saying bad things about me and then they go there and then he tells them about the scene in heaven that he saw where God has a whole bunch of spirits around them and he asked them, I want to entice the King Ahab to go to war against Assyria and then there's the spirit that comes forward and says, I will put a lying spirit in the mouths of his prophets that will encourage him and then he'll go and then God says, you will succeed, make it so. 


[00:51:03] Uh, The thing that I've always found interesting about that story is that God allows the truth to come out and Ahab still makes a choice and he doesn't make a choice based on a lie. And he, both the king of Israel and the king of Judah at that point know the truth and they know that this is a prophet of the Lord and they know that they can trust the word of the prophet of the Lord. 


[00:51:20] They still make a choice against it. 


[00:51:22] Cody: Yep. No, he still uses it as an opportunity to choose the right thing rather than this other influence that's there. But I think we discount that other influence a lot of the time. Agreed. And these kind of conversations. 


[00:51:40] Gina: That kind of, that's a really interesting tie in to the verse that is used on this one. 


[00:51:47] No, the last one, uh, the, yeah, the, just as the father knows me and I know the father and I, cause that same verse goes on to say that the sheep know the voice of their shepherd, but a lot of times you see where it's questioned, like, is this really the voice? of God. Just a connection. I thought it was interesting. 


[00:52:10] It is 


[00:52:10] Ben: a good connection. I like it. I think the important question here is, let's say that all of this is true, and you don't have a choice. God chooses you, and you can't fall away if he chooses you. Should you choose to live like that's the case, or should you choose to live like it's not? Should you choose to live as if you have a choice, and should you choose to live like you want to know the Lord better, and like you can know him better, and you're constantly trying, even if trying isn't something you can do, to improve yourself. 


[00:52:41] I think both Calvinists and non Calvinists would agree, we should all be constantly striving to know the Lord better. That's why there are even debates on this to begin with. That's why people instruct. If you can't learn, there's no point, but we all recognize that learning and growing closer to the Lord, striving for a better life is important. 


[00:53:00] Gina: I mean, even Jesus set that example. He had to learn. He had to learn about the Lord. He had to memorize the scriptures. He wasn't born just knowing. 


[00:53:09] Ben: So even if it is the truth, the reality is we're called to live as if it's not the truth. And that's why I struggled the most with this. Theology, because if you're called to live as if it's not true, then why is it true? 


[00:53:22] Cody: It's a very good question that I can't answer for you. 


[00:53:25] Ben: I know I would be interested to ask an actual Calvinist on that point 


[00:53:30] Cody: the Calvinist like there's even branches of atheism that touches on this And Sam Harris is the modern popular guy you you have choice, but who determines your will 


[00:53:43] Ben: There was a very famous talk where Stephen Hawking was addressing the idea of scientific determinism, which is basically the idea of, okay, there was an event that happened at the very beginning of history and the laws of mathematics and science and cause and effect determine everything. 


[00:53:58] So it probably determines what you do and think and say, so is everything predetermined. And at the very end of his lecture, he said, yes, but we don't know what it is. So it doesn't matter. And literally everyone groaned and rolled their eyes and like, so we just wasted a bunch of time. 


[00:54:11] Cody: Yeah. 


[00:54:12] Ben: And that's it. 


[00:54:13] Every single person who believes that you're determined still claims that it's important what you do. They still go to debates. They still try to convince people, even if that's impossible. 


[00:54:22] Gina: But are they just a clinging gong? 


[00:54:24] Cody: If 


[00:54:24] Ben: they 


[00:54:25] Cody: truly 


[00:54:25] Ben: believe their 


[00:54:26] Cody: worldview, yes. 


[00:54:27] Gina: Well, there's that pride again. 


[00:54:29] Ben: And they can't help 


[00:54:29] Cody: it. 


[00:54:30] Gina: Neither can I. 


[00:54:31] Ben: All right. So, we're to the P. 


[00:54:35] Gina: We've arrived. 


[00:54:36] Ben: We have arrived. The five pillars. Islam has their five pillars, we've got ours. So, the P in TULIP stands for Perseverance of Saints. You cannot lose your salvation once you are saved. If you are a Christian and fall away from your faith, It means you were never saved to begin with and to back this up they quote 1st John chapter 2 verse 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us for if they had been us They would have continued with us But they went out that it might become plain that they were all not of us 


[00:55:11] Cody: This is another one that is not specific to Calvinism. 


[00:55:14] This touches on once saved always saved Which there's certain non Calvinistic You Theology that holds to that as well. 


[00:55:24] Ben: Well, the question is this specific verse citing an incident with a very specific group of people that John is referring to, or is he referring to the entire church? 


[00:55:32] Cody: I don't know. First, John, that, that well, 


[00:55:35] Ben: honestly, neither do I. 


[00:55:36] That's more just a question I threw out there. I hope you, I hoped you would know. 


[00:55:39] Cody: No, 


[00:55:39] Gina: Cody always asks me, well, did you look up the context? I 


[00:55:43] Cody: haven't looked at the context. I don't know who that was too. That would have been something 


[00:55:47] Ben: smart for me to look up before. 


[00:55:50] Gina: Do we need to take a minute, or do you want to skip to it? 


[00:55:52] Ben: Let's assume that they're correct and this is applying to the whole church. 


[00:55:56] Cody: The whole church. There's this great meme of A alpaca in a herd of sheeps, and it reads like day 52, they've taken me in as their own. So like, is there a goat living amongst the sheeps? And they think they're a sheep, but they're really a goat? 


[00:56:15] Or are they, can you be sheeps and then 


[00:56:19] Gina: The question is, does it have a tail or not? 


[00:56:22] Cody: Well, if it has a tail, it's a monkey. 


[00:56:25] Gina: I, I, I feel like this is all kind of just circular, like, U through P is a little bit repetitive. 


[00:56:33] Ben: A little bit, but this one, to be fair, isn't something that necessarily has to be dealt with in a predeterminist mindset. 


[00:56:40] Cause I've heard other people, other Christians say, no, once you're saved, you're always saved. Because God doesn't want you to ever not be saved. So once you are saved, why would he ever let you go? 


[00:56:49] Gina: It's a fine line to organize salvation by works. And so if you're assuming that you're saved through your works. 


[00:56:59] I could see how this could be challenging, and I also could see how it would be challenging if you are kind of like the average Christian, and that's kind of harsh, I know, but like the average Christian, meaning you go to church on Easter and Christmas, and you don't read your Bible, and you don't really know what the faith is all about. 


[00:57:20] It does apply in a lot of different areas. Areas and it can be argued in a lot of different areas, but I don't know 


[00:57:27] Ben: well Let's start with can you accidentally fall out of faith? Like, is this something where you're not intentionally letting go? You just, no, I believe. And then the Lord's like, no, you're not. 


[00:57:37] Gina: I don't think the relationship with God is that casual. 


[00:57:40] Cody: No, I think the common term, church lingo that's used is, can you backslide? Can you jump in and out of the ring of fire? 


[00:57:48] Gina: We know people who have the fruits, or have had the fruits, and then backslid, and gone through seasons of darkness, and genuinely denounced their relationship with God, only to come back. 


[00:58:04] Ben: None of us can say for certain whether anyone is truly saved or not. That doesn't mean that you don't have some kind of blessed assurance. 


[00:58:13] Cody: I don't know. To me, I don't have blessed assurance. Like, I do think we're told to pursue Our faith and fear and trembling, like why would we pursue that and fear and trembling if there's not opportunity like, why is there conversations about perseverance to the end finishing the race? 


[00:58:33] Ben: Yeah, but at the moment by moment, like, are you living in the fear of, I don't even know if I'm saved. I don't even know if I'm going to heaven. Have I done enough? Like there's that's. Kind of the question. 


[00:58:42] Cody: Okay. I get that. Yeah. No, not that 


[00:58:44] Ben: you're certain you will absolutely go to heaven no matter what you do, but in this moment you are saved. 


[00:58:49] And I think all of us know on this moment that we're saved. So the question is, because we know in this moment, does that mean that we will be forever? It's just, the question is hypothetically, is it possible to fall out of faith? 


[00:59:01] Cody: I would say yes. And that's just from my own personal experience. Janus brought up that we've gone through miscarriages and that was a very dark experience. 


[00:59:10] Moment or period of my life where I was very angry and didn't quite understand and kind of, I've never been at a point in my life where I've rejected God, like the arguments for God and intelligent design are too strong for me to reject intelligent design, but believing that God loved me in that moment was very difficult. 


[00:59:36] Gina: There's a song I'm going to quote to kind of explain. So there's a band called My Epic and they wrote a song about miscarriage. And it really summarizes the darkness that we both felt. And one of the lines says, No good God would cause a thing so ugly. It leaves you cursing while you're trying to pray. 


[00:59:53] Like I thought that being angry in the moment and just like devastated. Meant that I had to choose to like, love God and live in this perfect stereotypical Christian life, or I had to choose to walk away from my faith. And there was a moment, like a season where I was like, I'm done. And the song came out in that season and I was like, Oh, I can curse and pray at the same time and somehow it'll come back together. 


[01:00:23] And that gave me the hope that I needed to kind of rekindle and I'm healthier and more balanced and more respectful of my faith now than I was back then, because it helped me to see like the. lamentation side of faith. But I definitely, in my mind, renounced my relationship with God in that season. But I have no doubt of my salvation now. 


[01:00:47] But I didn't have any doubt of my salvation when I got baptized either. And that was before we had all that trouble. 


[01:00:52] Ben: Yeah. Well, I have no doubt that you were saved at that time and you're saved now. We all grow closer to the Lord through our struggles, and I've had my own struggles, though not nearly to the extent that you guys have had. 


[01:01:02] But yeah, I do think it is possible for you to fall away. I mean, if you can choose him, like, if the idea is that there were angels in heaven who knew God face to face and could choose to not be there anymore, to reject him, then why would it be that we on earth, no matter what we do, can't possibly choose to do the same once we've chosen God? 


[01:01:23] Like, once you've chosen him, he's not going to let us choose anything else. Now, that doesn't mean that I'm right. That's just a thought process, and I could be wrong, and I'm open to having my mind changed on that. But I don't know. How do you guys think about it? 


[01:01:34] Gina: He's got something. 


[01:01:37] Cody: For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness, than after knowing it, to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. 


[01:01:48] And that can contextually be in a lot of different realms, but just the gospel message and the fact that Paul had to go on multiple missionary journeys and the fact that he was constantly writing to his brothers and sisters for perseverance and to, you know, further sanctify themselves to the image of Christ doesn't necessarily put a Pin in this train of thought, but also makes it illogical if you've baptized them and if the Apostle Paul knows that people are saved, why is he continuing to write to them about bettering themselves? 


[01:02:27] If they are saved in that moment, why continue? Like, it would be, okay, did my job there. I'm done. Let's move on. 


[01:02:36] Ben: And there's, oh, sorry, first, what was the chapter and verse that you wrote? Oh, 


[01:02:40] Cody: that was 2 Peter 2, 


[01:02:42] Ben: 21. And I wish I could remember this verse, but there's another one that's on the same vein. 


[01:02:46] Hebrews 6, 


[01:02:46] Cody: 4 through 6. For it is impossible in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift. And have shared in the Holy Spirit and have tasted the goodness of the Word of God and the powers of the age to come and then have fallen away to restore them again to repentance since they are crucifying once again, the son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. 


[01:03:16] Ben: Yeah, so I would say there's plenty of biblical evidence to say that you can fall away. Now, we don't wanna label any individual person as having done that. Only God knows the heart. Only God knows your status of salvation. So, this isn't an accusation that we want to throw around, it's just enough to know that for each individual person, we do need to approach this with fear and trembling, and know, and be humbled by the fact, that we can choose not to be with Christ. 


[01:03:40] Gina: The end of the New Testament, like Revelation especially, doesn't just hint at, it promises judgment and wrath. And if you fall into this, I would say trap, of believing that you're chosen and you don't have a choice. then judgment is irrelevant for everybody. And I have a really hard time with that. I also want to point out, it's kind of backpedaling, but like of the saints, there's that pride thing again, like I 


[01:04:15] Cody: get my own planet. 


[01:04:16] Right. 


[01:04:17] Gina: For the 


[01:04:19] Cody: average, 


[01:04:19] Gina: for the average Christian that like, I'm thinking about myself five years ago, If I had read this outline and somebody was like, this is the truth. Like, the saints is a very Catholic thing to say, and so I think about like, okay, these holy special people that did these wonderful things and usually died horrifically to defend their faith, and like, if we're pre selected and we can't lose our salvation and we don't have a choice and we cannot refuse, how at all does that make somebody a saint? 


[01:04:54] Like, 


[01:04:55] Cody: well, you gotta perform three 


[01:04:56] Ben: miracles first. 


[01:04:58] Gina: K. 


[01:05:00] Ben: Very strict application policy. And they have to be verified. 


[01:05:04] Gina: But do I get my form letter signed in triplicate assuring me of my salvation? 


[01:05:08] Cody: Well, that's your assurance. That's your perseverance right there. Three miracles. 


[01:05:12] Gina: Yeah, but what if I'm a cessationist? 


[01:05:14] Ben: Which most 


[01:05:15] Cody: Catholics 


[01:05:15] Ben: are. What? No, I didn't think Catholics were cessationists. Calvinists. Oh, Calvinists. Okay. Most Calvinists are cessationists. Yeah, I was going to say, it would be tough to be a saint and be a cessationist. So what three miracles did you do? Oh, I didn't do any of them. 


[01:05:34] Gina: Those don't exist. 


[01:05:35] Ben: What are you talking about? 


[01:05:37] Gina: I 


[01:05:39] Ben: was predetermined to be here. Now give me my sainthood. 


[01:05:42] Gina: Does the self identification as elect, saint, saved, whatever, predetermined, predestined, does that fall into the kind of lacking boundaries culture that we live in today where it's like, I identify as, or. You know, that kind of entitled. 


[01:06:00] Cody: You identify as a saint is what you're saying. 


[01:06:03] Gina: Yeah, like, or I identify as a male or I identify as a helicopter or whatever, like, however you want to put it. Like. Does this fall into kind of the trap that I see in our culture today of like not having accountability and not having boundaries to identify either behaviors or like culture related things? 


[01:06:25] Cody: I mean, I would say yes, just because the uptick in reformed theology 10 years, it's definitely catered to the entitled. 


[01:06:44] Gina: It's interesting because if you look at the conversations that we've had historically on the podcast, thinking about the episode that we recorded on God's Word being inspired, liberal Christianity then was more charismatic, but I feel like we're seeing a shift in liberal Christianity in the opposite direction. 


[01:07:06] Cody: Liberal Christianity is different than liberal politics. 


[01:07:10] Gina: But I'm attributing the two together because I'm seeing explosive growth of Calvinism in our church. Like our personal church. And it's interesting to me because they're announcing a million people saved, but then a majority of their pastors are Calvinist. 


[01:07:29] Ben: So there is a degree of rigidity and rules to Calvinism. Either you are saved or you're not. And if you fall away, you were never saved to begin with. So there is something that is in something that is not, it is on, it is off. It is hot or it is cold. 


[01:07:43] Gina: But are they lying? If they pat themselves on the back for saying we've saved a million people. 


[01:07:49] Ben: Well, so there can be lying no matter what, even if they were Calvinist or not. Like, I think the idea that there are a lot of people who are buying into Calvinism, I think is in many ways actually a response, a backlash to the more liberal movements of the church, because it is that structure. It is that rigidity. 


[01:08:05] It is. Okay, we are pulling from the Bible. The Bible says X, Y, and Z. Therefore, this is the way it has to be. This is the way that it is. And these are the people who are saved. These are the people who are not, and that's it. These are the instructions, tulip. This is the foundation of our lives. These are the things that we believe. 


[01:08:23] This is the way we will follow. You either are this or you aren't this. And in some ways that is true, not. It's not the doctrine itself, though it could be true, I don't know. It's the idea that there are things in this world you either are or you aren't. You are either a follower of Christ or you aren't. 


[01:08:39] And you can take some things that Christ said and think, this is nice, but if you're only following some of the things that he said and you think some of it's nice, but then you say, well, but the tithe thing, I don't feel, and he talks about me giving my life I don't want to give my whole life, but there's some things that he says are good and some things he says that are evil that I buy into. 


[01:09:00] And this love thing I really like. Oh, everyone loves the love thing. And then also the judgment. I could do without the judgment. You can't pick and choose. And yeah, we do have disagreements about individual doctrines and stuff. But the truth is that you either are a Christian or you aren't. There is a point for both. 


[01:09:18] Most Christians I've known, I haven't met a Christian where this isn't the case, where there was a moment they weren't saved, and then there was a moment they were. C. S. Lewis talks about how he was literally on a motorcycle ride. He says, I don't know the exact point that it happened, but I started that ride being an atheist, and I ended it being a Christian. 


[01:09:36] There is a point where we're not saved, and then a point where we are. We flip the switch, on or off, hot or cold. And yes, that is something that Calvinism holds to. I think that it holds to it in the wrong way, in a way I disagree with, because it's saying you have no choice in this. But it's still holding to that truth, that eternal truth that a lot of people are turning away from, where there is right and there is wrong. 


[01:09:58] And maybe there is some degree of gray in some of these areas. There is good and there is evil, and there's some gray. But more often than not, I think we can see when there is evil and there is good. And the church, and a lot of the people outside of the church, have rejected that. See, that's my spiel. I don't know how you guys feel about it. 


[01:10:13] No, 


[01:10:13] Gina: I appreciate that. 


[01:10:15] Cody: At the end of the day, I think we all agree, you can be a Calvinist and be saved, you can be a non Calvinist and be saved, as long as you're believing and following the Bible and the Gospel message. 


[01:10:28] Ben: Absolutely. And I don't want this particular episode to be taken by people who are Calvinists and think that we're insulting you or bashing you. 


[01:10:37] The truth is that you could all be right. We do have our disagreements, and we quote the scriptures that we believe refute it. In the end, you could absolutely be right. But the question is, assuming you are right, is your interpretation the way that you live? Do you live as if nothing you do matters? That you are just chosen, and that's it? 


[01:10:53] Do you live as if your effort matters? 


[01:10:55] Gina: Is your stance on Calvinism aggressive in defending Calvin or aggressive in defending Christ? That would be my point. 


[01:11:05] Ben: Agreed. In the end, we are all brothers and sisters in Christ, and our focus should not be on men. There are those who follow Paul, those who follow Apollos, those who follow Cephas, We follow Christ. 


[01:11:16] That's our job. 


[01:11:17] Cody: These are good discussions and edifying and fun. Like, I like these conversations to an extent when they can be held in peace and understanding that not everybody has to agree on certain doctrines. There is rib and there is spine, and there is some variance in the rib issues. That, that's fine. 


[01:11:38] that is allowed that you should be able to affirm, people can still be saved holding to those values. But what we see in scripture and what the church at Ephesus was ridiculed about from Jesus and Revelation is that they were too focused on their ins and outs and they forgot their first love. We can't forget our first love of Jesus. 


[01:12:03] Absolutely. And that should, whether you're a Calvinist, whether you're a non Calvinist, any form of Christianity should be able to rally around the fact that we are all brothers and sisters in Christ, and the main goal should be helping each other and bringing more to God's kingdom. 


[01:12:21] Gina: Glory to God. Thank you so much for taking the time to listen to our podcast today. 


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[01:12:47] We hope you have a great day.