What is Wesleyanism?

[00:00:00] Cody: Hi, thank you for tuning in to the Logic of God podcast. I'm Cody. 


[00:00:20] Gina: I'm Gina. 


[00:00:21] Cody: And I'm Ben. If you're returning, thank you for coming back and if you are a new guest, welcome. 


[00:00:36] Ben: Okay, so last time we covered John Calvin, today we're going to be covering John Wesley and Wesleyanism. To start with, just a kind of brief summary of John Wesley and who he was. Wesley was an English Christian minister who lived in the early 18th century, so the 1700s. While he was training to become an Anglican minister, he started a small group that carefully and methodically examined the Bible. 


[00:00:59] To learn how to live holy lives and their dedication to this methodical approach was how they got the name Methodist and they eventually became the Methodist Church. Wesley developed a very strong belief in the power of the Holy Spirit. He had a two year stint in America, specifically I believe it was in Savannah, Georgia. 


[00:01:16] which he didn't find to be super fruitful, and then he came back from that trip to America, and then he had a very deep spiritual experience, and it's from that that he developed his great faith in the Holy Spirit, and as a result of that, he started teaching Christians to focus on the need for the Holy Spirit to empower their lives and actions. 


[00:01:36] His teachings are not only the foundation for Methodism, but a few other different Protestant denominations. They're not so well known. The Wesleyan Church, the Church of God, which is in Anderson, Indiana, and the Church of the Nazarene. I really only had heard of the Church of the Nazarene prior to looking a lot of this stuff up. 


[00:01:53] The other ones, they seem a bit smaller, but that's just the way Protestantism is. We just have tons and tons of denominations. 


[00:01:59] Cody: Yep, there's lots. Yeah. 


[00:02:01] Ben: So yeah, the main. Brunt of what Wesley taught was the four alls. All need to be saved, all can be saved, all can know they are saved, and all can be saved to the uttermost. 


[00:02:15] Yeah, let's break that down a bit. What does all need to be saved mean, according to Wesley? 


[00:02:19] Cody: It's very similar to Calvinism. They believe in, not necessarily to the extent of total depravity, but the Romans all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Wesley was very adamant about that, that we're all sinners and need a Savior. 


[00:02:36] Ben: Yeah, and I think we all still agree on that. 


[00:02:39] Gina: Yeah. All 


[00:02:41] Ben: right. So yeah, has any of, have any of us changed our opinions on that since the last time we talked about it? Anything we feel like we should probably add to this? 


[00:02:48] Cody: You mean I can't save myself? 


[00:02:50] Ben: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's what we're saying. You can't save yourself. 


[00:02:53] Cody: But if I'm a Wesleyan, I save myself, right? 


[00:02:59] Ben: I think you're skipping ahead a little bit. 


[00:03:02] Cody: I'm too intertwined with the Calvinism we just spoke about. 


[00:03:06] Ben: Yes. I guess we're starting to get into free will now. This is dangerous territory. Is there anything we want to add to this? Anything that we haven't already said? 


[00:03:13] Gina: I think the idea of needing to be saved is a spectrum. If you consider all of the different doctrines and churches and cults that we've gone over recently, you have the ultimate spectrum of, on one end you've got Calvinism and we're all totally depraved from birth. And then you have the other end, which is that we're born innocent and corrupted by this world. 


[00:03:38] And I think Wesleyanism falls in the center, because it acknowledges, like, the sin nature, but it doesn't go as far as calling us fully depraved. 


[00:03:48] Cody: I don't think Wesley believes in the, you're completely and utterly hopeless without the regeneration. 


[00:03:55] Ben: I don't know, from what I saw, and I could be wrong about this, but from what I saw, it was the pastor that I heard these four points from, did specifically say that Wesleyanists and Calvinists do agree that we are born into this world sinful and we desperately do need God to save us. 


[00:04:13] Gina: Yeah, but there's a difference between the sin nature and then the depraved, like total depravity. 


[00:04:20] Ben: I think at the very least there is a difference in attitude, I agree. Just the word depravity. It's this idea that we're this disgusting sludge that takes a kind of human shape. And all of us are just terrible, and awful, and not worth saving. 


[00:04:36] And God, in his infinite mercy, has decided to select a handful. Just a small handful, and saved them himself because these terrible, disgusting, sludge creatures couldn't possibly do anything to earn his favor and can't be lovable in and of themselves. He makes them lovable. Now there's aspects of that I absolutely do agree with, but it's the attitude, the approach to it. 


[00:05:00] I think, whereas Wesley was much more, no, we're worth saving. God loves us. We're made in his image. And yes, we are born sinful. We're born with a capacity for sin, but God does love us. And God is the one who encourages us to turn to him. He's still vital to the process and it's through the Holy Spirit that happens, but it's still us choosing. 


[00:05:20] So there has to be something in us, some echo of the divine, you could say. That's calling us back to God. 


[00:05:28] Cody: Yeah, I think the mentality behind it goes into the second all, like all can be saved. It's not just the select few. It's not going to limit you. Wesleyanism is big on free will and choice and goes against the irresistible grace and all of that. 


[00:05:45] You have a choice inside of you. You can reject the Holy Spirit if you want to, you can reject the gospel message, but all are capable of accepting it in the inverse of that. 


[00:05:57] Ben: So yeah, let's flow then into the second all, so all can be saved, because you already touched on this. So for Wesleyanism, the summation of the second point, all can be saved, is that Christ's sacrifice on the cross was for everyone, not just for a select few, which is what Calvin believed. 


[00:06:14] Not everyone will be saved, but it is possible for anyone to accept Christ's sacrifice and be saved. And there are a couple of verses that Wesleyans will give to support this. First is 1 John 2, verse 2. 


[00:06:34] Of the whole world. And then there's also one Timothy chapter two verses one through four. I urge them, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgiving be made for all people, for kings and all those in authority that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 


[00:06:52] This is good and pleases God, our savior, who wants all people to be saved. And to come to a knowledge of the truth. So God wants us to come to a knowledge of the truth. If we don't have the ability to choose, then we couldn't come, God would force us. So the implication here is that we are capable of coming to the truth, of knowing it. 


[00:07:14] And I agree with that interpretation of the scripture. Just to be open, I'm definitely not a Calvinist. I don't know if you guys got that implication, that feeling from last time. But yeah, I'm much more Wesleyan and I don't know that I would say my say I'm a hundred percent Wesleyan or anything I don't really like pinning myself 100 percent to any individual given doctrine But I will say that of the two I definitely have a lot more sympathy for the Wesleyan Interpretation of the world than the Calvinist, but what do you guys feel like can all be saved? 


[00:07:46] Gina: There are people in this world that are hard to love But yes, they can be saved 


[00:07:53] Cody: Could Judas have been saved? Yeah, I think he could have. 


[00:07:56] Gina: Could we have been saved without Judas? 


[00:07:59] Cody: What do you mean? 


[00:08:00] Gina: If he didn't do what he did, then it wouldn't have happened the way that it happened. 


[00:08:04] Ben: I still think it was possible for God's sacrifice to happen without the need for a betrayer. 


[00:08:10] The question for a lot of this is, did the prophecies force this event to happen, or did the prophecies exist because the event happened? And this goes into God's eternal nature, and him perceiving all time as the presence, and there's a lot of rabbit holes that we can go down there. Since we don't know anything for certain, I don't know that's super helpful. 


[00:08:30] Gina: Scripture tells us that in order for us to have a good relationship with God, we have to forgive others. So, how could it be acceptable to hold unforgiveness against Judas, specifically, or anybody, if not everybody could be saved? Did that make sense? 


[00:08:48] Cody: Kind of, I get where you're going, and that's a modern topic that is going back and forth in academia. 


[00:08:56] Ben: I'm not involved in acting. No, 


[00:08:58] Cody: but like the idea of basically the different standards of God, because God tells us to love our enemy, but all throughout scripture, he punishes the enemies and kills them and brings his wrath and judgment. So there's the big back and forth there. So we can't, I don't think we can put God in that box. 


[00:09:22] Gina: No, but we're putting ourselves into. A box, you can either say that, and I'm basing this on my assessment of the Calvinists that I know who assess the salvation of other people, whether they are elect or not. by their behaviors or attitudes or things that the Calvinist person disagrees with. So if our assessment of somebody's salvation is based on basically their forgivability, then how are we aligning with scripture? 


[00:09:52] Because I believe that All can be saved, but if we're judging that and we're holding that on forgiveness through judgment, then we're not really doing what we're supposed to be doing. 


[00:10:03] Ben: If we were to say that not all can be saved, the question is what would exclude someone from even the possibility of being saved at any point in their lives? 


[00:10:12] There are a few different stages to this question. One, just from the outside, can anyone be saved? Then two, if not, what precludes you from being saved? And then three, is this something that precludes you from being saved at any point? As in, could you have been saved up to that point? Or does that sin somehow just corrupt your entire life pre and post that decision? 


[00:10:33] Or is it just something that is about you? You were born with a sin that keeps you from being saved? So yeah, there's those three stages of that question. So one, do we believe that anyone can be saved? 


[00:10:43] Gina: Mm hmm. Yep. 


[00:10:45] Ben: I agree. But for the sake of argument, let's say that there's someone here who said no. Then what could possibly be something? 


[00:10:51] Could we even think of something that makes it so that it's impossible for someone to be saved? 


[00:10:57] Cody: I've heard the, uh, somebody's committed the unforgivable sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit. And some other people have brought up, I think it's in 1 John, about the sin that brings death rather than an alternative sin. 


[00:11:15] I wish I had it memorized, but 


[00:11:16] Ben: I'm this. It's a weird part because Paul does his Paul thing, whereas there is sin that does lead to death. I'm not saying you should talk about that. There is some sin that does not lead to death. And we are talking about that sin, not the sin that does lead to Paul. What do you want about, but yeah, I, I know what you're talking about. 


[00:11:33] And I would say that even for the people who commit the unforgivable sin, cause I do genuinely believe that there is such a thing. And. The Bible even indicates this because there's the devil. The question is, if literally anyone can be saved, could the devil be saved? The answer is no. As far as I've seen in the Bible, there is no evidence that the devil could be saved. 


[00:11:54] And then the question is, why couldn't he? At one time, he was. At one time, he was an angel of light, and he was good and he was pure. He chose to reject that. And there's a part in the Bible that talks about, and we have addressed this before, it is impossible for someone who has been in the presence of the Holy Spirit and has known God's goodness to have tasted that and then rejected to come back. 


[00:12:15] Because at that point, you have rejected God with full knowledge and understanding. Now, even then, I still say, Anyone can be saved, but once you get to that point, once you have been saved, and then you know God fully, and then you fully reject him, at that point you have made your decision. But even then, you had been saved up to that point, and a Calvinist would say that no, you actually were never saved. 


[00:12:36] That decision actually precludes you prior to that and post that. You were just never saved at all because of that decision. I would disagree. I would say that at that point, you were saved. But then that does beg the question, why didn't God just kill you before you had a chance to reject Him? 


[00:12:51] Cody: Jonathan Why are we even here then? 


[00:12:53] If that's the question, why, why was there Satan? Like, why is there this choice of good and evil and the original sin as Augustine would argue of Adam and Eve? But like, why is there this great enemy of God if he could just snap his fingers and it go away? What do you think, Gina? 


[00:13:15] Gina: To take it in a different direction, scripture says that we will know God's voice and that we will know the fruits that come from him. 


[00:13:24] And if we have heard his voice and have experienced his fruits, and then fallen away from that to justify. The lack of salvation because they never had it would be wrong because they've heard his voice and they've had his fruits. And so, like, to me, the accusation of, well, you were never saved to begin with is more like one of insecurity than anything else. 


[00:13:51] I don't know. That's where I'm at. 


[00:13:53] Ben: In a sense, I understand where the idea comes from, because I think it's a human attempt to try to say that God didn't make a mistake. It's viewing the idea that. God, if he was truly just, would have prevented you from making such a terrible mistake that he could never save you, so he reasonably would have stopped you, some way, from making that decision. 


[00:14:15] I don't know that I follow that logic, though. I do think 


[00:14:19] Cody: You teeter on a weird form of universalism as you go down that path. Yes. 


[00:14:23] Ben: There's that, and then there's also, okay, so he kills you and then you're up in heaven. You're still the same person. You were still already on that path that would have led you to reject him. 


[00:14:34] You are still that person. So the question is, does him killing you before you make that decision somehow change you into a different person, or are you still that person? 


[00:14:42] Gina: If you look at a person who has an addiction issue, they say, Oh, I'm an alcoholic. I've been sober eight years, but I'm still an alcoholic. 


[00:14:50] Like, You always think in terms of, I could fall away very easily. I could turn back to the sin that separates me from God very easily, and I'm choosing not to, but I could succumb to it at any time. That doesn't change God's love for me. It doesn't change my ability to repent again and come back, but we're all sin addicted. 


[00:15:14] And like cineholics and we may be, you know, sober from that for a time, but we're all going to fall short and we always have to come back and repent. And I think salvation can be very contingent upon our repentance. So 


[00:15:32] Ben: I think there is another way to ask this question and it's are all saved because there is the Unitarian Universalist idea. 


[00:15:40] It's just everyone is saved. It's similar to what the Mormons think, although they do think that there are a handful of people who are just so evil and disgusting that they will be just pushed away from everyone else. But the vast majority of people are light. They're good. They will be saved. What would you guys say to someone who takes that position? 


[00:15:57] Gina: What would be the point in pursuing him and getting to know him? If I had a free ride scholarship, I would To heaven and I was like, all right, I'm set like I can goof off. I can waste time I don't have to love people. I don't have to do anything, right? He loves me That's like the way that we treat our parents as entitled Millennials according to everybody like no, 


[00:16:20] Ben: I sure I agree with you But to play the devil's advocate here like in first Timothy chapter 2 it does talk about how You know, God wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 


[00:16:32] If God wants all people to be saved, then why wouldn't all people be saved? Just automatically. It's the point that 


[00:16:38] Cody: Calvinists make against this verse. 


[00:16:41] Ben: That's why I'm being intentional about this. It's 


[00:16:43] Cody: a good point. 


[00:16:44] Ben: Are you expecting me to argue this alone, Cody? I want to hear you. I'm not trying to pin you up into a corner or anything. 


[00:16:51] No, it's okay. It's just, I know Cody knows what he wants to say. Set him up for a layup, but we know Cody's, you know, had a lot of legwork done on this and like you, you've had a lot of practice debating a lot of this kind of stuff, but I am genuinely interested to hear what you have to say on it. Agreed. I mean, God can want all 


[00:17:12] Gina: He wants. 


[00:17:12] That doesn't mean people are going to choose Him. The word wants is the word that sticks out to me the most in that verse. And of course God wants all people. There's one of my life verses is that God is not slow at keeping His promises, but He is making it so that it's possible for all people to go to Him. 


[00:17:31] And if we didn't, first of all, if we didn't have a choice. in either direction. Like we, if we didn't have a choice to love God and obey God, but then we didn't have a choice to disobey God, there would be absolutely no point in the relational aspects that we have with God. 


[00:17:50] Cody: That's what I would say, if you take either to the logical end, they don't have a good logical cohesion, because it's pointless, either way you take it. 


[00:18:00] Universalism, if you take it to its full extent, nothing you do matters anyway, so why even try? Same thing with Calvinism, nothing you do matters anyway, so why even try? There, there is no logical point to existence in either one of those worldviews. And that's why I think a Wesleyan or a conditional atonement makes more sense is there is still this pursuit aspect and that's God wants us, but he doesn't need us. 


[00:18:29] And I think people confuse that and so this God, he needs us to worship him. He doesn't need anybody. He wants relationship. He wants community. He wants certain things, but he's not going to force that on you. And I think we've talked about it. Some of the podcasts are molding together right now. The we've talked about, I think the idea of having kids, or if you have kids, if you force somebody to do anything, you're having more of a robotic relationship. 


[00:19:01] That means nothing if you're forcing anybody to do anything. So the only way that it would even make any sense or be relational at all is to have a option to choose one way or the other. 


[00:19:15] Ben: I think where a lot of the conflict in this particular question comes from is the idea that God is all powerful. If he's all powerful and wants something, it should be possible for him to get the thing that he wants. 


[00:19:31] I think the issue there is actually, that's not technically true. Because in order for him to get everything that he wants in that way, he would have to make things that are mutually exclusive happen. And we've discussed in the past what exactly it means for God to be all powerful. And we had that talk about how can he make a rock so heavy that he can't lift it? 


[00:19:52] Can he make someone more powerful than himself and still beat that guy in a fist fight? What's generally been said, the position of guys like C. S. Lewis, is that God can't do things that are logically inconsistent because he is a God of logic. He is a God of reason. He is a God of order. He doesn't do things that are chaotic. 


[00:20:10] Or that make no sense. He is the god of order and sense. And it's against his nature to do things that are logically inconsistent. Now, in terms of him wanting to have a relationship with us, by the nature of relationships, that's something that, like you guys said, you have to choose. You can't force someone to love you. 


[00:20:29] You can't force someone to be in a relationship with you. And have them choose it. Those are mutually exclusive ideas. Either God can force us to love Him, and that's not a real love, where He just programs all of us with that love, and we have no choice in the matter, we just have to love Him. Or, He can give us the capacity to love Him, and want us to love Him, but in the end, we choose not to, or to love Him. 


[00:20:53] We basically have those two sets. Now, God is still all powerful, God still reigns, God has complete control over the laws and workings of this universe. But, It is also true then that in order for him to remain logically consistent there with the way that he's running things, he does have to either control us completely or give us free will. 


[00:21:14] And that's where the Calvinist and the Wesleys had the conflict here, 


[00:21:18] Cody: pretty much Calvinist and non Calvinists. I don't know, essentially, I, I don't know any other doctrines or worldviews that follow the reformed theology. Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. And 


[00:21:29] Ben: the, the issue that I have. with the Calvinist approach is not so much the Calvinist approach that we're forced to do these things. 


[00:21:36] It's that there's still the treatment as if we do have a choice, which is weird. It's that we have to do these things. We still have to do the things that God asks us to do. But God would be forcing us to do them, so why do we have to think about doing them? Either he's forcing us to do all these things, and we don't have control, or he isn't, and we do. 


[00:21:56] But it's a weird middle ground where you can condemn the people who aren't doing it, even though they aren't doing it because God is forcing them to not do it. And you can't praise yourself for doing things because God is the one forcing you to do them. And the things you're not doing, God is not letting you do yet. 


[00:22:11] It's not that it's a lack of effort on your part, you don't have any effort. 


[00:22:14] Gina: But I think if you look at the people who staunchly believe in Calvinism, who really take on the lazy theology, you don't see the fruits the way that you do with people who are more passionate about having a relationship with God. 


[00:22:30] And so there's a big difference there. And I'm not trying to say that all Calvinists have a shallow relationship with God, because I do know some that are very in their word and somehow very evangelical, but I just don't I, I know a lot of people that take that path of believing that God has pre selected everything for everyone and nothing really matters, and the fruit just isn't there. 


[00:22:54] There's no really relationships, there's no accountability, there's no discipleship. It's very, I don't know, like just. Flat compared to the people who are so open with their love and willing to help and serve and be involved. 


[00:23:12] Ben: So, another question that I just thought up and I'd like to insert in here. How does all of this idea of free will gel with the idea that we have a purpose? 


[00:23:22] So, God has set you aside for a purpose that he's chosen for you to do. How do you still have free will if he has given you a purpose? 


[00:23:29] Gina: That's a good question. That's something that I've been thinking about a lot lately. It's been a weird season. Like you grow up and you look at your life and this is the way it's going to be. 


[00:23:41] And then God has a way of being like, actually, no, not at all. So change your expectations. I'm starting to see patterns in my own life with things that I've wanted, like the desires of my heart. They're not bad things, they're not ungodly things, but they are things that God has been resoundingly like, no, not going to happen, sorry, not sorry. 


[00:24:10] And I don't know, I think there are seasons or people that God places very specifically to teach certain lessons to those people so that other people learn, and I think that's why we have so many public speakers that are Christians, but not necessarily pastors. It's really common right now to have Christian authors and really, you know, It's intelligent, analytical people who speak about theology, but they're not necessarily working for a specific church. 


[00:24:42] So it seems like it's changing in our era. You have people who are very specifically placed and they have a very powerful message. And sometimes it's not a very good message, it's not a very godly message if you really pick it apart, but a lot of times you'll see there's something that they're trying to teach and it's very specific. 


[00:25:01] And I've noticed just with my own like very specific no's that I've received, it seems like God has a need for people who understand that type of challenge because it reaches more people. Being let down is a big undercurrent of being a human being, like being disappointed. Especially in America, we're so spoiled. 


[00:25:25] Like we are so used to instant gratification. We're so used to getting what we want very quickly. And I just, I think when it comes to the big things, like the big life decisions, getting married or having children or wanting this big career movement or wanting to find your purpose as a human being, those are things that are commonly. 


[00:25:45] challenging for lots and lots of people and life just doesn't look the way that we expected. And then you have somebody that gets it and spreads God's message through that, and I think that's the answer to your question is. He has very specific uses for certain people and it's because it draws other people in Who wouldn't have heard his message if they hadn't faced the same struggle as you 


[00:26:10] Cody: so many directions to take this one Take them all Purpose I think is something and this is a personal belief of mine and my own opinion is Something that I think people put entirely too much focus on Instead of just doing, it's, oh, what's God's purpose? 


[00:26:29] And I've seen that hinder a lot of people. They, they need to pray about everything, which is good, but when they receive a no, they don't always receive a no. And they'll keep, God's purpose is this for me, and they just keep going with this purpose that they have in their head of what God wants for them, and most likely it's not. 


[00:26:55] There's a famous pastor, I don't even know the sermon, but he has a lot of memes, Matt Chandler. Um, it's, he's the guy who said, You're not David. And that, that's it. took off. And I think a lot of people put themselves into the Bible and the characters and like the influence that they had and the impact that they've had and think that they need to fulfill that. 


[00:27:21] And that is a purpose that God puts on them, which I don't think is everybody's calling. I don't think everybody's calling is to be in ministry. And I think a lot of the people that are currently in ministry have not been called that way, but are currently trying to lead in that capacity. With that being said though, if you read through, I'm trying to think of, I think it's in Timothy, Paul, Paul talks about it, but also Ecclesiastes and people of the early church, there's this mentality of just doing your daily tasks, like living your normal life, but as a Christian, as a brother and sister, as somebody who is just Living in community with other Christians, and building the kingdom with, up, where you're at, instead of going everywhere, or having to make this big impact, or being this influencer. 


[00:28:18] Ecclesiastes talks about people just finding joy in the day to day stuff, and how the writer is jealous of that almost, or, not necessarily jealous, but wishes that he could find joy in the simple things. And I think people overlook that working a nine to five and being a great father and a great husband is a purpose and there is nothing wrong with that. 


[00:28:44] Ben: So I agree, there are definitely a lot of different ways to take this. I think at the base level, we're all born with things, capacities, that are unique to us in some way. Some of us are born very athletic, some of us are born very tall, some of us are born fairly musically inclined, or we develop unique talents as we get older that other people don't tend to have. 


[00:29:08] You could say that's God setting you up to do something, giving you tools that he intends for you to use. And I agree, that is God giving you tools to use. But you do find that most of the times in the Bible, like, he selects people who lack the tools to do something naturally. Gideon is a random guy from nowhere. 


[00:29:27] David is a random guy from nowhere. Elijah is a random guy from nowhere. And he chooses all of these different people to do great things, and it's through his power that he does that. And in a sense, I think turning to Christ in a way gives you more of a choice, oddly enough, than before. And what I mean by that is that my mom grew up in a very aggressively atheist household, and her life was on a very specific track. 


[00:29:58] She was a physician's assistant. She was fairly successful. Eventually she met my father and she became a Christian. And it drastically shifted the direction of her life. And if you had known her prior to then, she would have seemed fairly emotionally distant. She would have been Someone I didn't know her at the time, but from the way that she's described that period of her life, that she was someone who was going to be difficult to get close to and who held onto a lot of hurt from the years where she was growing up and through coming to know Christ, she gained the ability to let go of that. 


[00:30:30] And she gained the ability to do things that would have seemed beneath a woman who was a literal physician's assistant, an educated woman. She eventually became a mother, and she became a teacher at a private school, and then she worked in assisted living when we moved to Florida. Your mom did so much more than that. 


[00:30:45] She's an amazing lady. She is an amazing lady. It's really, it's I talk about my dad a lot, but I feel bad because I really should be talking about my mom just as often. Her story is every bit as incredible as my father's is, and her gifts are every bit as invaluable and amazing as his. And the Lord has very clearly worked in her life, and she's talked about how if, The Lord hadn't been a part of her life. 


[00:31:07] She would not be anywhere near where she is right now. The Lord gave her the ability to choose. So I still think that everyone has the ability to choose. We all have the ability to choose, but we don't seem to have the same motivation to choose until we start to know Christ. And then he gives us the true choice because most of our choices don't seem to matter prior to him. 


[00:31:27] Let's be real. It doesn't matter if you eat the steak or you eat the cereal for dinner. Yeah, sure, you're eating breakfast for dinner, you're eating an actual dinner for dinner. It doesn't actually matter if you choose that. It doesn't matter if you choose to wear your pants normal, you choose to wear shorts, or you choose to wear your pants on backwards. 


[00:31:43] Those aren't choices that matter. It 


[00:31:45] Gina: matters if you wear pants, Ben. It 


[00:31:47] Ben: matters even then. Most choices in your life don't really seem to matter that much without Christ. But once Christ is injected, suddenly all of the decisions of your life have more color. They have more purpose, more meaning. And you're right, Cody. 


[00:31:59] I don't think, I don't think you need to look at it as every single person has this specific purpose. Job that God has set aside for them. I do think for some people that's the case. It's like we talk about Esther. Yeah, she was put there, but God makes it clear. She had the choice to stay there and do nothing. 


[00:32:17] Gina: Scripture acknowledges that there will be people for special use. There will be people for leadership, but it doesn't promise it for everybody. 


[00:32:26] Ben: And 


[00:32:26] Cody: even then, those people still have a choice. Do you think, another way to ask this, do you think that you cannot fulfill the purpose God has on your life? Yeah. 


[00:32:36] Okay, I'd agree with that. What about you Gina? Do you think if God has a purpose for you, your life, can you not fulfill that purpose? 


[00:32:45] Gina: Yes, and I've ignored what he's told me to do before, and I've been punished for it. I've paid for it. It's not just saying no, there are consequences from God. 


[00:32:54] Cody: I agree. See, I think that's where the Calvinists use it as a gotcha. 


[00:32:58] God has his purpose, and 


[00:33:01] Ben: you didn't do that. No, it's, it's, it's the same thing with you guys and your children. There are things that you want your children to do. But in the end, if you force them to do it, it changes the dynamic of the relationship and it's not even truly a relationship if you force them to do literally every single thing. 


[00:33:16] Gina: There's this quote by G. K. Chesterton talking about how, I'll paraphrase it because I don't want my phone to die, but basically he says that maybe it's not just out of mundane necessity that God created daisies. Maybe he is still so enamored with creating each individual one that He says do it again like a little kid when you swing a little kid around and I really believe that When it comes to creating people God creates us all individual like we're all made in his image And there's nothing new under the sun, and yet we are all so different and unique and he loves us individually. 


[00:33:58] It's not just, Oh, he created such and such a person just so that they could be destroyed. I think genuinely that God takes as much delight in creating. The daisies, as he does, creating us, if not more, and he loves us more than the flowers and the birds. We have so many promises in scripture for his love for us, I can't ever agree or believe that there would be somebody that's just waste. 


[00:34:23] Because that's basically what Calvinism is saying, that there are people here that are completely pointless and useless and worthless to God. And we're not the point of God, but he loves us. But 


[00:34:34] Cody: Romans says that some are made for ceremonial use and some are made for destruction. 


[00:34:40] Gina: Some might be made for destruction, Cody, but I think he loved those people and they chose destruction. 


[00:34:47] Ben: I think it is worth looking at that verse a bit more. So how do you interpret some are made for common use, some are made ceremonial, and some are made for destruction? 


[00:34:55] Cody: My interpretation of that is What potter do you know that makes something just to destroy it? 


[00:35:03] Gina: What about the rec rooms? 


[00:35:04] Cody: That's just stuff that they find that's trash, that they beat to kingdom come. 


[00:35:09] Ben: Yeah, I think it's a better translation is some are made for common use, some are ceremonial, and some end up being destroyed. 


[00:35:16] Cody: I would agree with that, because if you think about any creative anything, unless you're a pyrotechnic, you're a pyrotechnic. You don't make anything to be destroyed like a potter. 


[00:35:28] That's who they're talking about. In this instance, a potter is not going to make anything to be. 


[00:35:34] Gina: And that takes a lot of time and effort and money. Like it's like pottery is one of the most expensive hobbies that you can have. The equipment is expensive. It's just, it's so labor intensive. You need like an entire day just to create one piece. 


[00:35:50] And if you were to go and buy like a handmade pottery dish, it would be like. Like, I looked at buying my friend a salad bowl one year for her birthday from her favorite pottery artist. I didn't even know that was a thing, but she's like very into pottery. It was 500 for a salad bowl. Like, I'm sorry, but I wouldn't think that somebody would create a 500 bowl that took hours and hours to make. 


[00:36:16] and then just go and shatter it intentionally. 


[00:36:19] Ben: Agreed. 


[00:36:20] Gina: And that implies that God is like so frivolous and flippant and it like creates this idea that I don't really like picturing God as that. 


[00:36:29] Ben: No, it's definitely something that causes you to, like it's an image of like God creating billions upon billions. 


[00:36:40] Gina: It makes you, it makes me think of McDonald's. You can have this beautiful Wagyu steak that was raised from a calf, that's been nurtured and whatever, or you could go to McDonald's. Is God pumping out billions of little cheeseburgers, or is he pumping out wagyu steaks? 


[00:37:01] Cody: What is that philosophical thought where nobody else exists except for the person? 


[00:37:06] Gosh, what is that? 


[00:37:07] Ben: I don't know the name of it, but I know what you mean. Cause that. Sorry, Gina, the rest of us don't exist, only you do. At least you've acknowledged it. Okay, so let's move on to the next point. 


[00:37:19] Cody: The next all. 


[00:37:20] Ben: Yes. The third all is all can know that they are saved. The idea behind this is once we are, once we accept Christ as our Lord and Savior, the Holy Spirit begins to work in our lives. 


[00:37:32] And through the Holy Spirit we can receive assurance or certainty that we are saved. And there are a couple of different verses that are given for this. The first is Romans chapter 8 verses 15 through 16. The Spirit you received does not make you slaves. So that you live in fear again rather the spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship and by him We cry Abba Father. 


[00:37:56] The spirit himself testifies to our spirit that we are God's children and in the second verse of that uses 1st John chapter 5 verse 13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God So that you may know that you have eternal life. And honestly, I really like the Romans chapter eight verses 15 through 16, because it explicitly says we're not slaves. 


[00:38:19] It explicitly says effectively that we do have a choice and it brings about this very tender and kind relationship that we have with the spirit 


[00:38:28] Gina: family relationship. It 


[00:38:29] Ben: is 


[00:38:30] Gina: an adoption to sonship. I am adopted. So it's a beautiful thing. 


[00:38:35] Ben: And the way it talks about. Calling out Abba father. 


[00:38:39] Gina: That's like saying daddy in Hebrew. 


[00:38:42] Ben: It's the most intimate word that they have for those of you who don't know for father Abba, it really does essentially translate to daddy. And so, yeah, that is the relationship that Paul is talking about us having with God, through the power of the Holy spirit, we can know that we are saved. So first opening up to you guys, cause I've been talking for a while. 


[00:39:01] Do you believe that we can know that we are saved whether or not we can be, because we all agree that we can be saved. Can you know that you are saved? 


[00:39:09] Cody: This is a double edged sword, I think, because yes, I think you can know you're saved, but there's also people who will falsely think that they are saved. 


[00:39:19] And you say, I think it's Matthew 22, where some will cry out, Lord, and he's going to say that he never knew them. And so they fully thought they were saved, but they weren't. That would be a yes and no, almost. Like, there is some. But 


[00:39:38] Gina: your responsibility is, I think, primarily your relationship with God. Can you be certain of your salvation? 


[00:39:47] Cody: I'm a bad person to ask this. Answer the question. I don't personally know, like I don't know if I'll ever get to a point where I know with 100 percent certainty that I'm going to be saved. And the reason behind that is, is there is so much misinformation in today's day and age and there is so much different ways to interpret. 


[00:40:11] Gina: But did you do the repeat after me prayer? 


[00:40:13] Cody: I did. I raised my hand too. 


[00:40:15] Gina: You're saved. 


[00:40:16] Cody: Do I think that I'm saved? Yes. Do I, can I say 100 percent certainty that everything I've done, like I, I know how bad I am and I wouldn't save me. And I guess that's where I'm at with that. And I think I've talked about on previous Podcasts is, um, or episodes, the ABBA father is something that I struggle with just because of my personal relationship with my dad. 


[00:40:41] Ben: Yeah. Lee Strobel once pointed out something that I think has some weight. He said that there are a lot of atheists who exist, who have a lot of very bad relationships with their fathers. And he did wonder if maybe one caused the other. If a bad relationship with an earthly father causes a bad relationship with a heavenly father. 


[00:41:01] And I do think we do pull from our earthly relationships to understand our relationship with God. For myself, like looking at my relationship with both my parents, I know that both of them love me. And, in the same way I can know and do know that God loves me. And if we use that as a facsimile for salvation, yeah, I know I'm saved because I know that God loves me and I love him. 


[00:41:24] I know that my parents love me and I love them. So for me, it really is that simple. And I do think that there is the capacity for us to obfuscate that. And like you said, there are people who are going to say, That they are saved and they're not. I think for most of the time, though, it's not that we can say for certainty that they aren't saved. 


[00:41:42] But, by the fruit of the tree, you know them. And for a lot of these people, I do think whether or not you would say, like, you can't know, I can't know if you are saved. The idea is, can you know that you are? If I look at your life, I would say, you know what, Cody? By the fruit of the tree, I would say, yeah, I think you are. 


[00:41:58] That doesn't mean I'm right, but by the same stroke, for many Christians, you look at them and it's pretty clear that they're not giving fruit. Their lives are empty and shallow, and they come to church and they say the words, but their lives aren't bearing any kind of fruit that indicates that Christ is working in their lives. 


[00:42:14] I don't think that it comes out of nowhere. I don't think that Gina could be praying at the altar every single day, and then one day she has a heart attack or something and goes to heaven, and then God says, I didn't know you. I don't think it works like that. There is a reason he doesn't know you. 


[00:42:27] Gina: So I had to make a really hard phone call one time, because God, God said so, and I put it off for a couple of weeks. 


[00:42:36] And when the guy that I had to call, who happened to be my biological grandfather, who, is a drunk who had just lost his son, my biological father. When he answered the phone, he said, I don't know you. And he hung up on me. And it was like, God was like, That's what's gonna happen if you don't listen to me. 


[00:42:55] And so, I never knew you. I take it pretty seriously. But I know I'm saved. I just know I'm going to be judged. So I'm very aware of that and I try to be very careful. 


[00:43:08] Ben: There's a reason we're told to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. We do need to remember that while God is good, and He is merciful, He's also just. 


[00:43:17] And I do think that there is a tendency for us as Christians to focus way too much on the merciful, the relational, the kindness and love aspect of this relationship with God, and forget that He is still the same God He always has been, and He is a God of justice. And if you continue to live in sin, you're constantly spitting in His face. 


[00:43:43] You're spitting in the face of justice. So yeah, you're right. It is something that we do need to keep in mind and thank you for sharing because I know that's a rough story for you. 


[00:43:51] Gina: Oh man, it was a very eyeopening in terms of calling and salvation and purpose. 


[00:43:57] Cody: Spitting in God's face. I want to talk on that for a second because I want to challenge people on their interpretation of taking the Lord's name in vain. 


[00:44:06] A lot of people. think that taking the name, the Lord's name in vain is saying a curse word. I would challenge that thought and look at the original language that it was written in. And to take the Lord's name, to take up, to carry, to have a banner of the Lord's name is calling yourself a Christian. and doing the opposite of that. 


[00:44:31] Gina: Just being an image bearer. 


[00:44:32] Cody: Yes. When you think about the Ten Commandments and you pat yourself on the back because you've never broken any of the Ten Commandments, think more deeply on that one. 


[00:44:43] Gina: Can you give more specific examples of how somebody would take the Lord's name in vain without saying OMG? 


[00:44:50] Ben: Yeah, so Dennis Prager actually talked about that interpretation, and I like it, and I agree with it. You bear God's name falsely. Let's say that I'm going on. We've talked about this before. There are people who will say, Oh no, God told me it's okay for me to have sex with this woman who I am in a relationship with. 


[00:45:09] I feel like it. Therefore I'm going to ascribe to God my motivation. That is bearing God's name falsely. That is taking the flag of God and planting it in your action and saying he approves. That's bearing it falsely. And that's a sin. That's a horrible sin. 


[00:45:25] Cody: So growing up, we had, um, we were part of a, like a Christian, uh, church. 


[00:45:35] And one of the things that some of these organizations would make you do is you had to dress in a suit and tie to your games. And the reason was, is you're representing God and you want to look your best for it. And that's how a lot of the Southern churches and some of those more traditional fundamental churches, why you put on your Sunday's best and why that's a thing is because you're going to appraise it. 


[00:45:58] place of worship. You're representing God. You're going to be in the presence of God. So you want to look your best. That should be the idea of bearing and taking the Lord's name with you wherever you go. You want to look your best is what you're doing. Honoring to God. Are you doing what's holy or what, what you like? 


[00:46:17] Are you being set apart as we're called to be set apart as Christians, or are you living up the world? 


[00:46:22] Ben: I like that. I like that a lot because the way that. Prager had explained it, and I still think it's a valid way of looking at it. It's taking God's name and tying it. To something you're doing which is not something God would approve of but simultaneously we are literally as Christians bearing Christ's name little Christ Mm hmm. 


[00:46:42] And so if we are actively carrying the banner of Christ everywhere we go If we act in a way that isn't Christ's, we are bearing his name falsely. 


[00:46:51] Cody: I view that as that's tattooed across me. I am taking it where I can't shed that now. That is part of me because I am a Christian. That is my identity. So I can't shed that. 


[00:47:04] So anything I do, no matter what it is, putting my stamp of approval on it, I'm being watched by only God knows who. You influence a lot more people than you think about when you're Living your day to day life out in the community. Anything, you cutting somebody off and flipping them off. That, that is road rage. 


[00:47:25] That, that you're falsely bearing God's name there. Yeah, I like that. 


[00:47:30] Ben: Not the bearing God's name falsely. Not cussing people or anything. 


[00:47:34] Gina: But it's not just what you do to other people, it's also what's in your head and in your heart. 


[00:47:40] Ben: Agreed. Yeah, I think there is a whole lot of depth to the idea that you're bearing God's image, you're bearing his name. 


[00:47:47] And not only are you tying it to the things that you're doing, and not only are you occasionally attributing to God things that aren't godly, but it's also the way that you think, it's the way that you act. Everything about you should be moving over time, more and more closely, to be similar to Christ. 


[00:48:02] That should be an active act of sanctification, like you've talked about before. And if you're rejecting that, then that flag that you've planted in your life, that representation that Christ is giving you, is being bared falsely. And then you really need to re examine why it is you're holding that banner to begin with. 


[00:48:18] Gina: That ties really nicely into being saved to the uttermost. 


[00:48:21] Ben: Absolutely. Well done, you. So yeah, the final point, the final of the four alls, all can be saved to the uttermost. It's the idea of entire sanctification or perfection in love, and it was taught by Wesley. We are told to love God with all of our heart, mind, soul, and strength, and to love our neighbor as ourselves. 


[00:48:43] Through love and the power of the Holy Spirit, we become more and more like Christ, and we become more and more empowered to follow God's commands. And the verses that Wesleyans will use to back this up are 1 Thessalonians 5, verses 23 24. May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. 


[00:49:03] May your whole spirit, soul, and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. The one who calls you is faithful, and he will do it. Then there's Philippians chapter 1 verse 6, being confident of this. That he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion, until the day of Christ Jesus. 


[00:49:23] We've covered this now. Do we believe in the idea of sanctification? Of becoming more Christ like over time? Yes. 


[00:49:31] Cody: Is it always more Christ like? Can you ebb and flow in your Christ likeness? 


[00:49:37] Ben: Yeah, I think that there are Seasons in all of our lives. You guys have been very open about some of the struggles that you've had at points where it felt like at the very least you are farther away from God. 


[00:49:48] I don't know that even in those really dark and terrible instances, we're truly farther away from God. It's more that God has highlighted an area of our life that actually was fairly weak, and it's being stressed now by something. And the weakness is being exposed to the forefront, and we have to deal with it. 


[00:50:04] And in so doing, we become stronger. But at the very least, in the moment, There is the possibility of falling away completely, which is ultimate weakness. It's just completely collapsing and falling away. And there have been people who did fall away for a time and then came back. I haven't known of many of those people, but I've known a few people who, like when I went to school with some people who were, Like that. 


[00:50:25] They were Christians when they were kids and then fell away in their college years and then came back when it's a lot of people. Yeah, it's a lot of people. It's a tale as old as time at this point, but I don't know that all of them do that due to sanctification. A lot of them actually do that because it's just, you go to college and there's a lot of stuff that you see that you want and it's inconvenient for God to be there. 


[00:50:46] Gina: That's like, I was going to use that example actually, because. We have a 12 year old daughter and she and I got into a really big argument last week. Funny, funny enough, it was about like perfume and I have nothing against perfume. It's just, it contains certain perfumes contain certain ingredients that I don't want my family to be exposed to. 


[00:51:08] And of course, Madeline and I get into this argument and it's companies. sometimes design products that create dependencies on other products. And it's like a hamster wheel. And it's not something that, that we like, or that we want to hear, but companies want our money. They don't, they don't really care about us as people. 


[00:51:34] And then I basically boiled it down. Cause I got so frustrated. I was like, okay, a company comes, they take your health. They take your money and they leave you there to die. Who does that sound like? Satan or God? She was like, Satan. I was like, the world's going to hate you, but we're going to be set apart and we're not going to use that. 


[00:51:54] There are times where it's so inconvenient and so frustrating because we want what we want and we can't have it. If we want to honor God, we can't have it. And it could be as stupid as perfume, but it could be something really big, like temptation to do something that we know we shouldn't do. That's like in the Bible. 


[00:52:12] And it's really hard when you're not spiritually mature to stay true to the course. And so you will see ebbing and flowing. I think that is normal, but you have to get to a point where you're honest with yourself. And you're honest with God and you can confess those things and be held accountable to those things and not ebb and flow in the same way. 


[00:52:32] Now you guys think I'm conspiracy theorists about greedy products? Prevalent 


[00:52:37] Cody: and capitalism. No, never. The very idea. 


[00:52:42] Gina: I could talk a lot about endocrine disruptors. It sounds like we agree with a lot of Wesleyanism. 


[00:52:49] Ben: We, we do, but there's, I think we can go into this part a little bit more. Okay. So we can become more Christ like over time. 


[00:52:56] Are we ever going to be exactly like Christ? No. So then what exactly is the point of sanctification? If we're becoming more like something we can never be. 


[00:53:05] Gina: We will never be sinless, but we can sin less. 


[00:53:08] Cody: So you don't think that we could live a perfect day even? No. Like a sinless day? 


[00:53:13] Gina: No, because our thoughts. 


[00:53:15] Cody: You don't think you can come to a point where you control your thoughts enough to If you were up in a cabin in the middle of nowhere for 40 years, you don't think you can control your thoughts enough to not sin? 


[00:53:26] Gina: We can never be as good as Christ, because whether we have a sinless future or not, we've had a sinful past. 


[00:53:34] Cody: But do you think we can have a sinless day? Do you think you can have a perfect day? 


[00:53:40] Ben: So if you're in a coma, absolutely, like just by default, you wouldn't be able to have any sinful thoughts or feelings. But the absence of sin does not mean the presence of goodness. The absence of goodness is the presence of sin. 


[00:53:52] Yeah, I would say it's possible hypothetically, even if you are conscious, to not do something bad throughout an entire day. And I would say that the odds of that are actually much better. The longer you've been a Christian, I do think that it is possible for people to be better and better as time goes by, but temptation is always there. 


[00:54:08] And sin will always be there as long as we're alive. There's not a single person who's perfect aside from Christ. 


[00:54:13] Gina: I think it's really hard. When it comes to sin, to not idolize behaviors. And I think if we become super obsessed with, Oh, am I sinning? Then it becomes your idol instead of, Am I obeying and honoring and loving God? 


[00:54:29] Cody: No, what if you weren't? Am I sinning, but is what I'm doing holy? And you only focus on doing what is holy? Is that still an idol that is? 


[00:54:38] Gina: It's a fine line. It would be a case by case assessment, and I can't, I'm not the assessor goddess. 


[00:54:44] Cody: Catholicism has a lot of teachings on sanctification, and they call the process of this, I think, something else, theocracies, or something like that, but it's a theosomething. 


[00:54:55] Theosis? I can't remember. But they have some older teachings that these people became so holy, these saints became so holy that they could fly or levitate or had these special Holy Spirit powers because they were so sinless. And do you think that you get superpowers if you are more holy? 


[00:55:18] Gina: I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. 


[00:55:21] Like genuinely. I believe anything's possible. Do I believe in the truthfulness of some of that? No. 


[00:55:28] Ben: A lot of the times it feels like they're trying to take these people and say that the people themselves are that holy. And as a characteristic of that holiness, they gain some measure of control over the physical world like God has. 


[00:55:42] Essentially, they are becoming more than human, which is not something that's biblical in my opinion. And we may have Catholic listeners who disagree with that. Okay, fine. I don't believe that the better a life you live, the more God like you become. We say Christ like for a reason, and by that we're talking about Yeah, his wisdom, his capacities as a human. 


[00:56:03] He channeled the power of the Spirit, and he said that there were greater things that we would do than him, and there are some debates about what exactly that means. I'm Not here to talk about that. We can even have an episode just on that. But the idea is that through the power of the Holy Spirit, we can do anything. 


[00:56:19] The power of the Holy Spirit is not something that we get to command. The Holy Spirit is not our slave. We are a slave to the Holy Spirit. And who knows? Like you said, Gina, anything is possible. The Holy Spirit may very well give you the ability to fly or walk on water or some crazy thing at some point. 


[00:56:35] Anything is possible. But God doesn't tend to do that. 


[00:56:38] Gina: I think sanctification, like a really good example of A saint experiencing sanctification is like St. Francis kissing the leper. He detested lepers. He was very wealthy, he was very privileged, he was afraid of lepers, he also hated lepers. And he forced himself to face that for Christ. 


[00:57:01] He wasn't doing it for himself. But because he thought that it would elevate him or that the leper would love him or anything like that, he knew that it would glorify God and he knew that obedience was important. If your intentions in the sanctification process are to glorify yourself or to glorify something and not God, then it's not sanctification. 


[00:57:23] Ben: There's also the story where Corrie Ten Boom came face to face with one of her Nazi captors, and he'd become a Christian, and she hated this man, and she didn't want to forgive him, but he came forward and asked for forgiveness, and she chose to forgive him because she knew it was the right thing to do. 


[00:57:40] Whether or not she felt it in the moment, that is the process of sanctification. And it goes back to what we were talking about before. Through the power of Christ, it seems like you do have more of a choice, more free will to choose, than you would otherwise. God granted Corrie the ability to forgive this man who did horrible things to her. 


[00:57:57] Gina: And to have the wisdom to know how important that decision was, like the poignancy of that moment. 


[00:58:05] Ben: Now there is still the question, why would God even care if we're more like Him? If we can never, if we can literally never get to that point, why does God actually care if we're more like the thing we can never reach? 


[00:58:15] Gina: It's not about us. 


[00:58:17] Ben: Looking at you two for a second, just pulling from the idea of a married couple relationship, why would Do you think Gina that you will ever be the perfect wife? 


[00:58:25] Cody: Yes. 


[00:58:26] Ben: Oh, okay. Cody, do you ever think you will be the perfect husband? 


[00:58:29] Cody: No. 


[00:58:31] Ben: So does that mean that you shouldn't keep trying to better yourself? 


[00:58:34] Cody: No, absolutely not. And is it in my best interest to try and better myself for my relationship and my family? Yes, it is. And I think it's the same in our Christian walk is to constantly better ourselves because it is better for us to try and be more like Christ. 


[00:58:52] Gina: Even in marriage, like I can't say for sure what happens in heaven with marriage. 


[00:58:58] So I find marriage a challenging example of that, because it could be irrelevant to eternity. I don't think it is, but it could be. 


[00:59:07] Ben: What we pull from earthly examples of relationships to help us understand heavenly ones, and typically in the Bible you pull from the relationship of marriage to explain God's relationship with the church. 


[00:59:19] Gina: I think the example of, there's a song lyric that God wants his bride dressed in white. And maybe that's scripture, I don't remember. But if we need to be dressed in white, like then we need to be pure. And purity is something that we can give up and lose and that's a whole other issue, but then can we regain it? 


[00:59:40] Can we become pure again? And I think sanctification is the process of becoming pure and innocent and new for God. In preparation for eternity in a way that we've never been before. If that makes sense. 


[00:59:54] Ben: There are definitely passages in the Bible that talk about this. Though your sins are as scarlet, they will be made white as snow. 


[01:00:01] And there's imagery that's brought up both in regards to Israel and to the church of a woman whose innocence has been stolen or given up. And God brings this woman in and he clothes her with his own clothes. He covers her with white robes. He makes her presentable. He purifies her with an offering from himself. 


[01:00:21] It is absolutely something that you can give up, and it's something that can be taken from you, sadly. But it is something that God can restore to you. 


[01:00:28] Gina: I was 16 when I wasn't pure anymore. I'll say it that way. And I was just a rough kid. I did drugs, drank, partied, made really irresponsible decisions with my body. 


[01:00:46] I was a teen mom. Those are some indicators for you. Sanctification has definitely been very obvious to me in my own life just because of how many bad worldviews I had and, and just decisions that I made and how that's not me anymore. 


[01:01:02] Ben: And the Bible says that whoever's been forgiven of much loves much. 


[01:01:06] And there's a reason that Mary Magdalene loved Jesus the amount that she did. It's believed that she was the one who cracked the jar of nard and poured it all over Jesus feet, and cried on his feet, and then wiped the tears with her hair. Yeah, if you've been, it's something that I've struggled with to an extent, because Growing up, I didn't make a whole lot of horrible, damaging decisions in my own life. 


[01:01:29] And there have been times where I've wondered where exactly I would be if I had strayed and then come back. A lot of people have. And for the people who have, they generally tell me, Oh no, you're much better off. In fact, it's great that you didn't stray away. And I believe that, but There is always the part of you that wonders how much closer could I be to God if there was something I knew? 


[01:01:51] Like we all know that all sin is between us and God But when you do things that are genuinely terrible or you come from a place where you were lost Like I talked about my mom before, it's not that she was a horrible person or anything, but she knows the person that she was before she met Christ. And she was a pretty solid atheist, and a lot of bad things happened to her when she was younger. 


[01:02:12] And that was stuff that threatened to mark her for the rest of her life. And she chose Christ, and she was able to leave all of that behind. And that's a beautiful thing. And I love my mother and I love her testimony and I love my father and I love his testimony. And it's just, when I look at my own life, that's not a testimony that I have. 


[01:02:29] My testimony is effectively dealing with other things that happen that aren't my fault. And yes, there's value to that. It's just, you know, It's tough. It's, it makes you wonder. 


[01:02:39] Cody: I resonate with that a lot. And I think that's one of the reasons I have the position on knowing without a doubt that I'm saved and it's a blessing and a curse in itself because I grew up in a Christian household. 


[01:02:53] There's not a second that I can think of that I didn't believe that there was a God, that there is a God. And I don't think it's talked about for people who grew up in the church that didn't have this like super massive deconstructive phase where they completely just set God completely to the side. 


[01:03:14] And had no cares at all to that, because I, I've never experienced that. So it's, you don't know life without God at all. So you have nothing to compare it to. So you just have been, there's ups and downs in your connection with God and stuff, but you don't know the absence of God. And sometimes I, I wish that I knew that just so you could feel more, if that makes sense. 


[01:03:40] And I think it does from what you just said, but you don't know life without God. So it's hard to relate to like the spirit received and like the talk of the change you'll feel from the Holy Spirit. If you've never known life without that, then how do you witness or feel the change? 


[01:03:59] Ben: And one of the things that. 


[01:04:02] So many people towards the teaching of Paul is the fact that he called himself the worst of sinners. He was a man who actively persecuted the church, and his conversion means a lot. And the fact that he converted is something that's strong evidence for his writings, is the fact that we knew that he was a guy Who actively killed and hunted Christians. 


[01:04:20] And then he changed and he turned from that and he became one of its strongest advocates. There's a lot of power in that testimony and it wouldn't be a powerful testimony if he was just literally always a Christian. It's like, Oh no, I just, I always knew. I 


[01:04:34] Gina: do think from my perspective though, like the steadfastness of your faith is what attracted me to my faith. 


[01:04:43] Like the absence of God in my life was pretty dead feeling. And getting to see the experience that you had, and your upbringing was not easy, it's not like you were having bake sales and church picnics and that was your life, it was hard for you. And seeing the man that you've become and the way that you developed, being a Christian didn't exclude you from sin of other people or your own, and yet you still are here. 


[01:05:15] A lot of people who have gone through things that you've been through wouldn't have stayed. And that has meant a lot to our family and to me because whether I had God or not, bad stuff was going to happen. And it's taught me to be extremely faithful and grateful. And you've been so knowledgeable and such a good leader to me. 


[01:05:37] So I just hope like how wonderful you are because it's your knowledge and your curiosity and your logic has been instrumental in my own faith. And I don't think we would be the family that we are without all of the things that you've lived through and the way that your faith has developed. And I've seen more development in you in the last five years than I think you realize. 


[01:06:01] Cody: No, it's definitely taken off and thank you. 


[01:06:04] Gina: But I just, I wanted you to know that like, I know that it can be hard to imagine like the absence, but I'm glad you don't have it. 


[01:06:12] Cody: No, but, like, I think it can be a detriment to some, and I don't know if you felt the same way, but she constantly gives me crap because I'll say, like, my testimony doesn't have a very big impact because, you know, I'm not coming from past drug usage, and, you know, the ones you hear in the, uh, But the further you are from God, the greater impact you'll have when it comes to your testimony. 


[01:06:36] And that's just a common thing that's taught and understood. 


[01:06:40] Gina: Because people like drama? 


[01:06:41] Cody: No, because I think the people who are truly trying to change have hit rock bottom. So seeing somebody who has also hit rock bottom is a greater impact than somebody who they have, they've had a tough life, but they've always been able to fall back on. 


[01:06:59] Gina: I don't think that you can. Only hit rock bottom without God, because I've hit my lowest lows with God than I ever did before God. 


[01:07:07] Cody: I've hit everything with God, so I couldn't really comment otherwise. I think There is going to be highs and lows, no matter which religious persuasion you are, but one of the things that I've always fallen back on in any situation has been, honestly, I've taken a more Calvinistic approach is it's in God's hands. 


[01:07:30] Like I, Me, and it bothers you sometimes, is like, me worrying about a situation is not going to change that situation because that situation is out of my hands. 


[01:07:42] Gina: You sound like a Calvinist. 


[01:07:43] Cody: I do. But there's certain things that, and you get mad at me too, it's like politics. They're out of my hands for the most, especially national politics. 


[01:07:53] But 


[01:07:53] Ben: for Paula, as far as politics goes, it's like. In the end, you vote on stuff. And if you're going to vote on stuff without having any knowledge or understanding of what you're voting on or the implications for it, then why are you doing it? And that's a separate issue. And we don't need to go into it. 


[01:08:08] Oh, please. No, don't worry about it. There's two things you're never supposed to talk about religions and politics. And we're talking about religion all the time here. So might as well sneak some politics in, but. Pulling from earthly relationships again, would you ever want any of your children to not have one of you? 


[01:08:25] But that's going to happen to them. One day that's going to happen. Yeah, and obviously they'll come to understand and appreciate the relationship that they had with you once they no longer have you and That's going to be important at some point but it's important for them to have you now and you wouldn't want them to not have you and Maybe that's not a perfect analogy, but for me, I noticed that when Jack was gone, once I lost my brother, yet suddenly everyone realized just how important he was once he was gone. 


[01:08:58] I'd much rather have him here. I'd much rather not know how much more important he was to me once he was gone. And I knew how, like, I felt How important he was when he was there. But then once I felt his absence, the actual magnitude of who he was in my life became much more clear. And it became clear for everybody, including people who didn't have such a great relationship with him at the time. 


[01:09:20] Because suddenly the implication of Okay, I can't repair that now becomes clear. It's a weird thing. And I think there is some similarity between people who come to God late and having done some bad things that need to be forgiven versus people who've always had him like you and I have. And I think that both need to happen. 


[01:09:39] Ultimately, That I think that more goes to the idea of God setting certain pieces of pottery aside for special use. He calls to some of us at one time or another, we don't have any control over what families were born into. I was born into a Christian family. You were born into a Christian family. You were born into some kind of strange, wiccan, Christian. 


[01:10:04] I don't know what your family is. 


[01:10:06] Gina: My birth family was prostitutes and gangsters. Not even kidding. 


[01:10:12] Ben: Yikes. 


[01:10:12] Gina: And then my adoptive family was just dysfunctional. The religious aspect was like a lot of various religions combined. 


[01:10:22] Ben: But none of us chose where we were born. No. None of us chose the families we were born into. 


[01:10:27] If you ask my adoptive mom, I chose her. There's a lot of that kind of thing. I see that with a lot of people who get pets. It's weird. No, my furbaby chose me. Yeah, I chose you. I wanted you to abuse me. 


[01:10:47] Cody: I wanted to be carried around in a stroller as a dog. 


[01:10:52] Ben: And they, they can't carry the animal anymore. 


[01:10:54] Although, 


[01:10:55] Gina: okay. I was at Publix yesterday. with Madeline, and there was a lady with a kitten 


[01:11:02] Ben: tied around her neck on down her back. People are getting weird about their pets. It's depressing. It was like a parrot. But yeah, none of us control where we're born. And, to an extent, that's why I agree with you in that there is an element of truth, I think, in Calvinism. 


[01:11:21] We don't control everything that happens to us. I, what I think we do control is the effort. We choose the attitude with which we approach our surroundings. We choose the things that we focus on. And I do think that there are points where God gives us a diverging path and says, okay, you can take this, and this is what I want for you. 


[01:11:38] Or, whatever. You can choose to ignore it. In which case, I will find a way, but you won't get the blessing, and the consequences are on you. And that's, again, I bring up Esther all the time, but I think that verse really does exemplify that fact. Esther didn't choose to be put into her position. She was put there by God. 


[01:11:56] Gina: But the funny part about this Esther thing is that people judge her. She's either like a harlot, Or she's like the super obedient queen. And that's really irrelevant. 


[01:12:10] Ben: Correct. The point was, is that at that point, Mordecai was letting her know the truth. God was giving her a choice. She could choose to be faithful to what God had put her there to do, or she could choose to take her own safety and prioritize that. 


[01:12:24] And she chose God. So yeah, she never said his name, but she chose him. No, that's the most fascinating thing about the whole book of Esther. God. Isn't mentioned I believe a single time in the book, but his presence is there it's felt throughout the whole thing because Yes, it's not said that God will find a way. 


[01:12:42] It's that the Jews will be saved even if you don't do this, but you and your family will die, and who knows but that you were put here for this purpose. Mordecai is saying exactly that. God did this. God did this. You have a choice. Choose. That's the same thing for everybody. Maybe you didn't have a choice to be here. 


[01:13:00] God puts you here, you have a choice. Choose. 


[01:13:03] Gina: Or sue your parents for not getting your consent to be born. 


[01:13:07] Ben: I've never heard of that succeeding. I've never heard of that tried. It's happening. Is it? Yeah. Successfully? It's going to court. Are they winning though? I have no idea. Mom and Dad, I hope you're ready. 


[01:13:21] I'm coming. Lawyer up. 


[01:13:26] Gina: Thank you so much for taking the time to listen to our podcast today. If you liked what you heard, please feel free to subscribe and share and leave a positive review. And if you would like to connect with us on social media, you can do so on Instagram and Facebook at the Logic of God. You can also send us an email at Maine dot the Logic of god@gmail.com. 


[01:13:49] Thanks again for listening. We hope you have a great day.