What is Prayer and Can We Pray To the Dead?

[00:00:00] Cody: Hi, thank you for tuning in to the logic of God podcast. I'm Cody. 


[00:00:19] Gina: I'm Gina. 


[00:00:20] Cody: And I'm Ben. If you're returning. Thank you for coming back. And if you are a new guest, welcome. 


[00:00:38] Gina: Here's the deal. I'm a lady. I like to shop. I ordered some stickers. I have students and children and teachers and people in my life that I like to give stickers to. And the stickers that I ordered this time are, they have like little Christian quotes and they're super cute, but some of them were pretty bad. 


[00:00:59] They 


[00:00:59] Ben: the gospel of luck. 


[00:01:02] Gina: Yeah. 


[00:01:04] Ben: So what did they say? 


[00:01:05] Gina: So one of the stickers said, God is madly in love with you. That's actually a Hillsong quote. So I just want to know, is God really madly in love with me? 


[00:01:17] Ben: I guess it depends on what you mean by madly in love. 


[00:01:20] Gina: I would put it in the perspective of your average American, whether they're Christian or not. 


[00:01:27] Ben: So in terms of romantic love, no, I do think that there is some precedent for that comparison. The church is described as the bride of Christ. And so, in some sense, you could attribute a measure of some kind of heavenly romantic love. Now, I still wouldn't say that. Because at the same time, we're also given a father son or father daughter relationship with God. 


[00:01:55] So, I would say that there is an incredibly strong, reckless, powerful, incredible love that's there. And that, I think, is what, when people say, He's madly in love with you. That's what they're getting at. It's another way of saying that so I would say yes But there are some connotations to saying that aren't helpful So there are other ways of saying it that are more clear and less odd context to it 


[00:02:19] Cody: But God loves me no matter what I do. 


[00:02:21] Yeah, what do you think? I? Think that yes, God loves you Just because our assumption, like we've talked about that in depth, but, um, if you think God loves. Every part of you and that he's not going to try to refine you and you're mistaken 


[00:02:42] Gina: What do you think that message could send 


[00:02:44] Cody: God loves you? 


[00:02:46] Gina: No, God is madly in love with you Does he need us? 


[00:02:50] Ben: No Yeah, I agree. It, it isn't that he needs us. He existed for an infinite amount of time before we existed, and he will exist an infinite amount of time after this world crumbles to dust. Ultimately, what he needs is himself. And when you look at the stories throughout the Bible, the whole idea is to bring us to be closer and closer to who he is, because his first love is himself. 


[00:03:13] And the qualities in us that he loves the most are the qualities that reflect him, because we are meant to be that. We are to reflect our creator. 


[00:03:21] Gina: The reason that I ask is because if I had been given that sticker as a brand new Christian, it would have furthered this incorrect view of God that I had, of my role with God, and God's role with me. 


[00:03:38] And I think that's a really important starting point here when we talk about prayer. Because if you pray to God as if he is madly in love with you the way that a boyfriend in high school is madly in love with you, you're going to have this really weird prayer life that Kind of takes you down this path of God becoming like a really weird Air Jordan wearing Clown faced vending machine person. 


[00:04:04] I don't know I want to start there because I think we need to kind of quickly outline prayer and what its purpose is and then Maybe go into some doctrine about prayer and figure out how to do it what the right way is That kind of a thing, because I think the unhealthy perspective of prayer is the more common version. 


[00:04:27] And I think that's the logic that I personally want to attack tonight. 


[00:04:31] Ben: Yeah, that's fair. And I do agree with you. This isn't something that I put a whole lot of thought in, but now that you, you bring it up, I can see how our expressions about God's love and its nature can be misleading to people who are kind of new to the church. 


[00:04:46] And even the people who are presently in it. Because when we say God loves us or we say we're talking to God, you ask a few different questions, you're probably going to get radically different answers, including people in the same church. As far as referring to it as a romantic love, you're right. There is an element of our own understanding of romantic love that is completely alien to God's love for us. 


[00:05:08] Like we were all in love at one point in high school We all had some kind of crush and when you have a crush on someone you don't see them You see the idealized version of that person. You don't see any of their faults You don't even conceive of the faults they could have and when you actually get into a relationship with that person You actually find out pretty quickly that they have faults 


[00:05:27] because 


[00:05:27] Ben: suddenly that honeymoon phase is over and you're left with the person And all that most attractive stuff that you saw in them, it turns out that was the stuff you wanted to see. 


[00:05:35] That's not the way God works with us. He knows who we are, and He knows what we are, and He knows the parts in us that are the most valuable. And He's constantly working through the process of sanctification, which we've talked about a few times. To make us more and more like him. To take the best qualities of us and make them better, and take the worst qualities of us and make them good. 


[00:05:56] Or, to slowly erode them away. It's like the Bible talks about purifying us, essentially. Like a crucible. Silver, you burn out the dross. And it's that kind of thing. So yeah, we don't really get that image. Though there is something like that. I believe that you can draw a parallel to in the process of marriage where it's two independent people and you've gone past the honeymoon stage and you're stuck with each other for life and so you have to constantly keep finding out you're not perfect. 


[00:06:22] And you have to work on one another and build one another into the best versions of yourselves that you can be. But I'm saying that as a single guy, I don't know what you guys think about it. 


[00:06:32] Gina: Hmm. 


[00:06:33] Hmm. 


[00:06:34] Ben: Oh dear, what have I done? 


[00:06:35] Gina: He's perfect and wonderful. Oh, 


[00:06:38] Cody: no sarcasm there at 


[00:06:40] Ben: all. All right. Moving more from the concept of love, because we have addressed this a few times. 


[00:06:47] very much. You mentioned prayer. What exactly is prayer? 


[00:06:51] Gina: It's a solemn request for help or expression of thanks addressed to God or an object of worship according to the Oxford Dictionary. 


[00:07:00] Ben: So that's what the Oxford Dictionary says. What would you say? Would you say that's a pretty good summation or do you feel like it might be leaving some things out there? 


[00:07:07] Gina: If you look at the Bible's example of what the ideal prayer is, it's leaving out quite a bit. 


[00:07:15] Ben: So what would you say is the ideal way to pray according to the Bible? 


[00:07:17] Gina: If you look at the Lord's Prayer, That is literally Jesus telling people, use this if you don't know what to pray, like that format is really helpful. 


[00:07:27] And that's usually my format for prayer because you give God the thanks and the praise and the glory. So it's like, Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. There's your glory part. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done. You want God's will to be exerted over your life. Give us this day our daily bread. 


[00:07:45] That's asking for the things that you need. Forgiving us our trespasses and forgiving other people. That's a really important part because you need the repentance. And then the lead us not into temptation is also really important. It's asking for refinement. It's asking to be made more like Jesus. So you have all of these different parts and most of them have nothing to do with asking for what you need. 


[00:08:08] Most of them have to do with God's character and your character and admitting those things out loud to the Lord. That's my little, like, 30 second explanation. 


[00:08:18] Ben: And an interesting part that I do hear covered a lot more these days is the very beginning portion, our father. The word that's used for father is ava, which in Hebrew is the equivalent of saying daddy for us. 


[00:08:32] It's like very 


[00:08:33] Gina: affectionate. It's a 


[00:08:34] Ben: very affectionate, very childlike, almost, version of saying father. And, honestly, Gina, that was a very good outline of why Jesus said the things that he did. Now, there's an undercurrent there, both of respect, but also of endearment, where God is absolutely your father, and he is your king, and he is the ruler over all things. 


[00:08:53] But he loves you, and he seeks to have a closer relationship with you, and that is very well embodied in the idea of calling him Abba, Father. You are my dad. And that is something that, the combination of all of those ideas is something that's difficult for us to wrap our heads around. And I do find that certain people are much better at treating him as a father, as someone that they're very close to, and there are certain people who are very good at treating him as the king. 


[00:09:20] And I do find that there are different denominations that focus on each individual aspect as outlined in the Lord's Prayer, and I don't think it's necessarily wrong. I do think that as Christians, it's our job to seek a complete view. Like what you outlined, it's each individual aspect of that prayer is revealing an aspect of God and our relationship with him. 


[00:09:38] And we should be seeking as Christians to get closer and closer to that ideal. 


[00:09:41] Gina: One thing that draws me in to prayer, so like that makes me motivated to pray, is like as a female, I don't know about as men, and maybe that's something you can explain or compare, but As a woman, when something happens in my life, I want to tell someone, I want to call someone, I want to talk about it. 


[00:10:01] And I've kind of learned that prompting is really the Holy Spirit being like, Hey, call up your dad and talk to him about it. Because a lot of times, What I end up doing or what I've ended up doing in the past is, Oh, I'm so mad. Let me call my friend and vent. And it turns into gossip and then it turns into resentment and it becomes this really unhealthy thing. 


[00:10:22] And it's an unhealthy expression of what just happened. And if I take it to God in prayer, first of all, it scratches the itch. It makes me. feel like I have had a satisfying resolution from God by releasing those feelings or that anger or whatever's happened, good or bad. And then it also gives me the self control to like really process what just happened before I opened my mouth. 


[00:10:48] And that's been really helpful in encouraging me to pray. Because the first person I should tell is God, not whoever I feel like calling in the moment. I don't know if that's useful for this, but I wanted to make that point, because that's something that I've been convicted about in the last year, that's really changed how I pray and why I pray. 


[00:11:08] Do you have the same feeling at all? Do you ever want to call someone? No. 


[00:11:15] Ben: No, I do not. 


[00:11:16] Gina: Not even 


[00:11:16] me? 


[00:11:17] Cody: I call you. 


[00:11:20] Ben: I can't speak for Cody or for all other men generally. I do find that my inclination as a man is when I talk with God, I want to find solutions to problems. If I have an issue in my life, I come to the Lord with the issue and I ask for help with it. 


[00:11:36] And I do my best to remember to praise him and be thankful. But as far as a relational aspect with other people thinking about, you know, that and the cascading effects that that could have, that doesn't really Factor so much into my prayer life. It's much more. Okay. Here's an issue and Lord. I'm seeking a solution 


[00:11:55] Gina: That's a slippery slope Benjamin. 


[00:11:57] Ben: Certainly 


[00:11:59] Cody: I would have to agree with that, um, for the most part, like the relational aspect is hard for me, because when I feel most connected to God is more when I'm going down a rabbit hole that is not trying to prove a point to prove somebody wrong, if that makes sense. Yeah, I know what you mean. So when I'm doing real Bible study, or Study on God is when I feel most connected. 


[00:12:23] So the back and forth, the relational aspect of prayer is hard for me because I feel it's a one sided conversation, and I don't like talking to myself or talking about myself or talking in general. 


[00:12:38] Gina: Guess what? You're doing that right now. And we're 


[00:12:40] Cody: proud 


[00:12:41] Ben: of you. Yeah, that's my thought on prayer. So taking that into consideration, what are the things that we should pray for? 


[00:12:48] Gina: You should pray to glorify God, to ask for his will, for your daily bread, to be forgiven and to forgive, to not be tempted and to be delivered from evil, amen. 


[00:13:03] Ben: So by daily bread, is it that we should just pray for the food that we need in that day or is it our immediate need that we know is clear? 


[00:13:10] Gina: It's the clear need that we have. 


[00:13:13] I think, I mean, a lot of the pastors that have spoken on prayer give a sermon like, pray expectantly, pray boldly, pray specifically. And I think it's really important to do those things, but with the correct intentions. With just almost like an organized, like if you're going to ask for something, you should know what you're asking for and what the ramifications of it will be. 


[00:13:38] Because God, if he says yes to what you're asking for and you're not specific enough, you can end up with a prayer answered that you weren't expecting. 


[00:13:46] Ben: I would say that you can pray and ask when you don't know what you want. 


[00:13:51] Gina: Yeah, no definitely, but if you're gonna, if you're gonna be like, God, I want a new job and he's okay, here's the gas station. 


[00:13:57] Ben: No, I see what you mean. At the same time, I do think there have been a lot of times in my life where I genuinely didn't know what I wanted. And in those instances, I think it is actually very important to ask God to reveal either what it is that you want, or more importantly, what it is that he wants. 


[00:14:13] That's 


[00:14:13] Gina: the first part, what your will be done. 


[00:14:16] Ben: Very true. 


[00:14:18] Cody: Does that mold the rest of the prayer though? I've heard a lot of people talk about prayer and you shouldn't be praying something that's against God's will or that is not God's will. 


[00:14:28] Gina: Go read Lamentations or Psalms and then tell me. 


[00:14:31] Cody: No, I agree with that, but the argument is God's not going to give you anything outside of His will. 


[00:14:37] Gina: Can you change God's mind? 


[00:14:38] Cody: What's the point of prayer? 


[00:14:41] Ben: It's been argued that the point of prayer is less To align God with your will and more to align yourself with his The more time you spend connecting with him the more you're going to find that the things that you ask are the things that he wants For you and this kind of begs the question. 


[00:14:57] Why did Jesus even bother praying? God already knew why he sent him to earth and more importantly God was Christ. So what was the point of prayer? 


[00:15:06] Gina: Jesus was like a superhero and he had this mind connection to God. No, I'm telling you how I have pictured it in the past before I learned. I think a lot of the things that Jesus did, and even the theophanies that God has in the Bible were more for our benefit. 


[00:15:26] Then for Jesus's benefit or for the sake of knowing that future generations are going to hear these stories and they're going to need some context or some examples of how to behave and how to speak and different things like that. I think that's a really big part of why Jesus did the things that he did and prayed the way that he did. 


[00:15:44] He was also fully man. 


[00:15:46] Ben: Absolutely. And because he was fully man, he could be tempted and the Bible says that he was tempted in every way so that he can sympathize with our position. It says he can sympathize with us because of that. Like when he went off into the desert, he was tempted by the devil. If he wasn't tempted, the Bible wouldn't tell us that he was tempted by the devil. 


[00:16:06] And, yes, obviously he said no. He was sinless. He lived a sinless life. He was God himself incarnated in the body of a human being. But to be fully human is to be tempted by things. And so there was a measure of separation that he had to fight. That was the entire reason why he had to go into the desert for 40 days. 


[00:16:24] He had to fast during that entire time. The whole point of fasting, according to the Bible, is to bring us closer to God. So he still needed to bypass that human limitation that he gave himself and he had to fight against it to get closer to his true nature, which was God. So, by that reasoning, when we spend time in prayer and when we spend time in fasting, the whole point is not to convince God to do something that he would never do. 


[00:16:48] The point is to align ourselves to try to get under God's will. 


[00:16:52] Gina: I love that you say it that way because every year our church does this fast and they're like, What are you fasting for? It's not even, what are you fasting from? It's what did you write to Santa for? And I hate it. So I love that you've just described it that way and included fasting because that's very important and it's all about your intention. 


[00:17:13] So if you're praying the Lord's Prayer, even if it's not a word for word Lord's Prayer and it just aligns with the outline that Jesus has given us, but you're really only there for the intention. Hey, by the way, I really need a new car, , or whatever it is that you're asking for. If you're like, okay, check, check, check all these boxes. 


[00:17:31] By the way, this is what I really need. Thanks. Amen. Your intentions aren't even right. Your posture is not even right, and I don't really see a point in praying that kind of prayer. 


[00:17:41] Ben: Mm-Hmm, . Well, and keep in mind, there was a point in the Garden of Gethsemane. Where Jesus was going to be crucified pretty soon, and he was absolutely terrified, and he was horrendously grieved, and he was praying to God during that time, and he said, Lord, if possible, take this cup from me. 


[00:17:58] But not my will but your will be done. He still had fears. He didn't want to go into the area he was about to go into and undergo the suffering he was about to, but he chose to do it despite the fear and the temptation to run. And I think that's something that we tend to forget. We tend to picture Jesus as this guy who was hovering two feet off the ground, shining light, and he knew everything 


[00:18:20] Gina: and he could read everyone's mind. 


[00:18:22] Ben: Absolutely. He just knew everything at all times. And yes, the disciples say, Lord, we see now that you know all things. You knew all things through God. 


[00:18:29] Gina: But even scripture says there are certain things that God does not reveal to Christ. And, like, when the end times is coming. That was one thing, like Jesus said, God hasn't told me this. 


[00:18:41] They are not the same. The Trinity is one, but God and Jesus are not exactly the same thing. 


[00:18:47] Ben: There are things the mind knows that the body doesn't, and there are things the will does that the body and mind don't do. 


[00:18:52] Gina: Right. 


[00:18:53] Ben: That's the point of these individual portions of God being what they are. They have different functions. 


[00:18:59] But in essence, it's, yeah, we we've talked this sober to death at this point. We don't need to go back into the Trinity or an exploration of it, I think. But you're right. He was not the same as the Father. The Father has a different role than the Son. 


[00:19:10] Gina: Right. So thinking about intention, Cody and I had a conversation earlier today about prayer. 


[00:19:18] We were kind of comparing Catholic prayer. To non denominational Christian prayer and we were like reading different prayers and kind of going over it Are we at a point where we can start to introduce other doctrine or do you want to continue? I think 


[00:19:33] Ben: we I think now is the right time. 


[00:19:35] Gina: Okay. 


[00:19:36] Ben: So yeah, obviously as Protestants not sorry, obviously as Protestants and non denominationals. 


[00:19:43] We don't pray the same way that Catholics do And there's probably a lot of people wondering, why is that? One, okay, so how is it that we pray differently? Because it's not that Catholics literally always say the same prayers all the time. But there are certain prayers that Catholics say, and we don't say them as Protestants. 


[00:20:00] So why is that? 


[00:20:02] Gina: I've done a lot of talking. Do you want to share anything? 


[00:20:05] Cody: I mean, why do they do that? Because I think it's Catholicism's more based in tradition. So this is a traditional thing and they give a lot of credit to the saints. So a lot of past church fathers have written these prayers and they believe that they're closer to God or, and all that stuff. 


[00:20:25] So if he wrote it, I'm going to say it and repeat it. And I'm gonna go with that. There's a lot of recited prayers that they do that I think pretty much only Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic and maybe some Anglican. 


[00:20:40] Ben: Let's start chipping away at this by degrees. You mentioned prayers that other people in the past have prayed. 


[00:20:47] Is it wrong to pray a prayer that someone else prayed? No 


[00:20:51] Gina: It depends. 


[00:20:52] Ben: So what do you mean? 


[00:20:53] Gina: It depends on who they're praying to. 


[00:20:56] Ben: Well, let's not go that far yet Let's say that there is even someone that you knew personally. We don't even need to go as far as historic prayers. 


[00:21:04] Gina: Joel Osteen and how he loves the repeat after me prayer. 


[00:21:09] Is that a bad thing to do? 


[00:21:11] Ben: Setting Joel Osteen aside. 


[00:21:13] Gina: No, I mean any church does that. 


[00:21:15] Ben: I'm using 


[00:21:15] Gina: him as a 


[00:21:15] Ben: scapegoat, but I would say no I don't think that it's inherently wrong. 


[00:21:19] Gina: No, I agree Yeah 


[00:21:20] Ben: to look at a person that you consider to be holy ahead of you in their walk with Christ and you see that and You see the closeness between them and God, and you want to have that. 


[00:21:30] So you say the same prayer, in that same spirit, trying to get closer to God. I don't think that's wrong. 


[00:21:36] Gina: No, I agree. 


[00:21:37] Ben: I do think that there can potentially be issues if that's All you do. 


[00:21:41] Gina: Right. There are some really beautiful like poems and songs and I think even those are things that people can use for prayer like to repeat lyrics or something like that. 


[00:21:52] I don't think that's inherently wrong, but I think it's all about intention 


[00:21:56] Ben: and in truth. That's ultimately what praise and worship is when we it. Back in the day when they would sing psalms. We don't tend to do that though There are some worship songs today that are based off of the psalms, but loosely But that's what the psalms were it was music Instrumentation that was meant to be used in service of praise to God. 


[00:22:17] And so when you do that, you're not making up songs yourself You're using songs that are pre written to try to exalt the Lord to try to bring yourself closer to him So yeah, I don't see that as 


[00:22:26] Cody: wrong. No, it touches on a couple points that we've discussed already one it can't be wrong to recite the same prayer and this has been a great issue throughout all of Christianity because the Lord's Prayer is the Lord's Prayer for a reason, just because somebody else prayed that doesn't mean I can't. 


[00:22:45] But that Abba figure that you mentioned, it removes all of the relational aspect out of prayer when you are only reciting other people's prayers. 


[00:22:55] Gina: If you think about it like the, the milk versus the solid food for baby that's described in scripture, like, For a new Christian, the recited prayer is probably the milk, and then as you grow confident, then you're able to kind of free verse whatever it is that you need to say to God. 


[00:23:15] But I do think that it gives you structure and teaches you. I don't think that it's wrong or that it hurts the relationship as long as you mature, and you are maturing, you're continuing to grow in your prayer walk as well. 


[00:23:29] Cody: I think it's good to connect. If you go read the Puritan prayers. Oh, they're so good. 


[00:23:35] Yeah, like it gives you like a different mindset than we have here in Western society of what these people were praying for and just their admiration towards God at that point. The average prayer at a church on Sunday doesn't even come close to glorifying God the way that some of those Puritan prayers do. 


[00:23:57] Ben: And I think you bring up a very interesting point in that when we're praying someone else's prayer. If we're doing it genuinely, we're taking ourselves, or trying to take ourselves, out of our own mindset and trying to insert ourselves into the mindset of someone else. We're not conforming to the patterns of this world, we are transforming ourselves by the renewing of our mind, according to scripture. 


[00:24:16] We are renewing our mind by trying to see things differently. We're trying to view God through the lens of someone else, and that's important, because through our own lens we can only see so much. Yeah, I think that is something that we miss a lot as non denominational, especially, there are Protestant traditions. 


[00:24:34] There are a lot of Lutherans, a lot of Anglicans who draw heavily from their own past, which does kind of lead into Catholicism, which does kind of lead in to the first church. And so there is a lot of beauty in tradition, and there is a lot of beauty in these prayers that you inherit. And when you think, okay, so the holy man who made this prayer. 


[00:24:54] I'm trying to be like that guy and he really knew God. Yeah. That's, there's a lot of beauty in that. 


[00:24:58] Cody: There is when people talk about that though. I do like to remind them like David's a big one. A lot of people want to be just like David and that's a good goal, but David only reached that goal because he was striving to be like God. 


[00:25:12] So you're going to be like a notch down. Then David was no matter what because you're not connecting with God You're trying to connect as David in that point and that I hear that a lot is oh I wish I could be like Paul, but even Paul talks about strive to be like me but points them to God as well 


[00:25:32] Ben: It's one thing to draw inspiration from these people and you absolutely should but to use them as the end all be all to say I want to be that you're right. 


[00:25:41] That is absolutely dangerous. Yep 


[00:25:43] Gina: I agree. But what a legacy to have your great grandpa's prayer. Like the family Bible they used to write when they were born and then when they died and they had their family prayers and just like beautiful legacy. We don't really have that. 


[00:25:58] Ben: Well, especially not in the non denominational churches. 


[00:26:02] Cody: There is a lot to tradition that I respect and wish that there was more of that. Yeah. And. non denominational or to an extent when you start putting tradition at the same level as scripture is when it's an issue, but that's another podcast for another day. 


[00:26:21] Ben: We'll be slightly touching on that in a little bit, but yes, that does deserve its own podcast entirely. 


[00:26:27] Cody: But one, one thing on even just reciting prayers is Bonhoeffer talks about church community and even when you're doing a communal prayer, you're taking the prayer that somebody else is praying and lifting it up together with them. So you're also praying that prayer with them, if that makes sense. You're not just reading it and the Puritan prayer, you read and recite something that somebody wrote down. 


[00:26:53] But even when you're praying with another person or for another person, you guys are joining in together to lift up that same prayer, those same words to God. 


[00:27:02] Gina: That's also a beautiful way to put it. Thank 


[00:27:05] Cody: you. That was Bonhoeffer, not me. I can't really 


[00:27:07] Gina: take credit 


[00:27:08] Cody: for that. But you just said it, so you get the credit. 


[00:27:11] Is that 


[00:27:11] Ben: how it works? 


[00:27:13] Gina: Listen, nothing new under the sun. 


[00:27:18] Ben: Checkmate. Okay. So that covers prayers that other people have prayed. And yeah, absolutely. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I don't think any of us use anything wrong with that. Praying to anything other than God. 


[00:27:32] Gina: Idolatry. 


[00:27:34] Ben: Let's address, again, address this in stages. 


[00:27:37] No, it's okay, because I happen to agree with you, but we do kind of need to build to that. As tough as it is. 


[00:27:43] Gina: No, it's the end. No, start it. 


[00:27:46] Ben: Idolatry. No, I mean, really, folks, to be honest, we could start and end it there. No, really, I think that all of our opinion here, I don't want to speak for her. I mean, yeah, at this point, Gina and I have spoken. 


[00:27:55] I don't know about Cody. But yeah, praying to anything other than God, I do think is not right. I do think is idolatry, but what do you think, Cody? 


[00:28:02] Cody: You'll find out my later. Okay, we'll build to that. 


[00:28:05] Ben: Ladies and gentlemen, the man of mystery. Okay, so we'll start with one of the lower tiers here. Praying to the dead, praying to the saints. 


[00:28:16] So this is a Catholic and I believe it's also 


[00:28:18] Gina: separate them into two separate things. 


[00:28:20] Ben: Technically, they are the same thing. It's not believe that you can pray to literally anyone who's dead. But we can address that specifically. Just praying to literally anybody who's dead. Can we do that? 


[00:28:31] Gina: I mean, can we? 


[00:28:32] Should we? 


[00:28:34] Cody: Are we going off of saint as the RCC describes it, you have to perform three miracles to become sainthood, or as the Bible describes it, anyone in Christ is a saint. 


[00:28:44] Ben: Technically you can do both. First, just praying to anyone who is dead. Can you do that? My question would be why? 


[00:28:54] Gina: Well, okay, my uncle just died. 


[00:28:55] Ben: Yeah, that's the thing. For some people who are Christians, you may be thinking, I don't know if my family member is saved. I don't know if they can hear me, but I would like to reach out to them in some way. I just want to still have some line of communication with them. I want to say something to them to let them know that I still love them and in some way keeps them alive in my memory and in my heart. 


[00:29:17] I can understand that sentiment, but what do you guys think? 


[00:29:20] Gina: I mean, I know what I believe on the afterlife based on what I've studied. But, the truth is, we don't know everything, okay? I mean, I believe that they're no longer on this earth, and they're not like, peeking down over clouds like cherubs in paintings, like, watching over us. 


[00:29:39] They're not. So, like, my uncle died in April. Can he hear me if I pray to him? No. Does it give my heart a sense of closure to maybe say something nice about him? Yes, but I don't pray to him. He can't hear me. He's either. You know, in heaven, or he's in the waiting period until Jesus comes back and we all go to heaven. 


[00:30:03] There are a lot of different camps there, but no, we cannot actually effectively pray to the dead. Now, there are sorcery examples in the Bible where, you People have awoken the dead and spoken to them. So I don't think it's impossible, but prayer to the dead. I don't think that's a thing 


[00:30:22] Ben: prior to the dead. 


[00:30:22] Let's say prayer to people who aren't Christian. Obviously, I don't think anyone is making a case for that. And perhaps if you're pagan, but as far as Christians go, and that's more or less what this podcast is for, I don't think anyone's making an argument for that, but the saints, as in both the Roman Catholic church version of saints and just the general body of believers, anyone who we know, love the Lord and then dies and goes to heaven. 


[00:30:47] Can we pray to them? 


[00:30:48] Gina: No. It's the same thing to me. 


[00:30:51] Cody: But even before that, even if you say yes or no, why? Why 


[00:30:56] Ben: would you? So there are different answers to both of those questions. The first, like I said, it's if you don't know, but you would like some measure of connection. Now I understand that, I understand the feeling of loss and the want to connect to someone who's not gone. 


[00:31:12] And there is the fear of the eventual just forgetting about them. The truth is that most people, even the people who knew and loved the person that you lost, they're not going to care after a certain amount of time. Not that they are cold and indifferent, but as time goes on, this person is not a part of their lives anymore. 


[00:31:30] And so they give them less and less thought, and maybe there's going to be the occasional thought about this person. But for you, for the person who's genuinely close to the person that you lost, I can say for my brother, like, he was a major part of my life, and when he died, part of me died with him. And it's a part of me I will never get back. 


[00:31:48] And you mourn for that part of you, and you want to reconnect with that part of you. He has that part with him, wherever he is. And it would be great to be able to connect with that. so much. And I'm sure I'm not the only person who feels that way. But the truth is that he's not here. One, I will go to him, he will not come to me. 


[00:32:06] That's what David said about his own son that he lost. There is a great separation between us, but they are only a breath away. That's the point. Eventually, you will reunite with them, but for now, there is that separation, and there is an intention to that separation. In the times where we feel that loss burdening us, we need to turn to Christ, not to them. 


[00:32:26] Because one, you don't even know if they can hear you. And two, even if they can, they're not God. They shouldn't be taking the place of God. But as far as praying to people who have died who are Christian, who are saints, there are actually some explanations that are given as to why you would do that. So I spent some time looking into that. 


[00:32:45] Frequenting some websites like catholicanswers. com and a few other places. There were some explanations given. And to be fair, they're not the worst that I've ever heard. As far as supporting something. The claim by the Catholic Church that I've seen for the most part, I don't know if this is universal amongst all Catholics, but the explanations I saw were that the saints in heaven can intercede on your behalf. 


[00:33:09] Just if I were to go to Cody or to you with a problem and say, Hey, could you guys pray for me? Yeah, obviously you guys would pray for me. And so obviously if I asked the saints in heaven who, assuming they can hear me, for now let's say that they can, would it be wrong for me to ask them to pray for me just like I would ask you guys to pray for me? 


[00:33:26] Especially if they're people who I knew and loved who are now dead and are now in heaven. Why wouldn't I ask them to pray for me? 


[00:33:32] Cody: That's going in with a lot of presuppositions. 


[00:33:34] Ben: Correct. But let's assume that those are right. Okay. Why not? Sure. So that, that, those are the presuppositions that Catholics are taking into this. 


[00:33:44] Cody: But where are they getting the source texts? Because a lot of the stuff that I saw as source texts for praying to the saints, like the only one in the 66, the Protestant Bible is Revelation. 


[00:33:58] Ben: So there are two parts to this. Uh, the first, so we'll get to Revelation in a second, but one of the reasons that they give for praying to anyone who is in heaven is Hebrews chapter 12 verses 1 through 2. 


[00:34:12] Yes. Therefore, since you're ahead of me, therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, And sin, which clings so closely and let us run with endurance the race set before us. Looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who, for the joy that was set before him, endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God. 


[00:34:36] So that great cloud of witnesses. What are they witnessing? The Catholic argument is that they are witnesses because they are witnessing us. They're watching us, they're cheering us on. Now, it's not that idea is necessarily wrong. We don't know what the church in heaven can see. 


[00:34:52] Gina: We don't even know if heaven is now. 


[00:34:54] Ben: Correct. We don't know. But we don't know if the dead in Christ can see us. Maybe they can. We don't know. But at the very least, they're rooting for us, aren't they? 


[00:35:02] Cody: Where does it say to pray to them in that though? 


[00:35:05] Ben: It doesn't. But the idea that they give is that because they can see us, because they can hear us, they We ask them, and because they are up in heaven, and they are rooting for us, they take intercessions to Jesus, just like the people on earth do. 


[00:35:19] And they're a step closer to him than we are. So why wouldn't we ask them for help? But that 


[00:35:22] Gina: implies that God is more attentive to those who are already dead. than those who are currently living. 


[00:35:29] Ben: Let's assume that he's not. Let's assume that he gives equal weight to the people in heaven versus the people here. 


[00:35:33] Then why 


[00:35:34] Gina: even bother? If he gives me Why would I 


[00:35:35] Ben: bother asking any of you to pray for me? 


[00:35:37] Gina: I don't know. I don't have the opinion that they're alive like that. 


[00:35:40] Ben: Prayer in numbers. 


[00:35:42] Gina: Two or more gathered in heaven is more powerful. 


[00:35:46] Ben: Again, it's not necessarily that it's more powerful. If I'm steelmanning the position, and I'm going off of the best explanation I saw, because there are some people who will take the position that, no, because they're in heaven, they have Jesus ear, and thus they have more authority than we do. 


[00:36:01] But there are some apologists who will say, no, that's not the case. They have the same weight that we do here. It's just, it's a, one, it's a way for you to continue to connect with the people who've died and who are in heaven. And two, it's just getting more people involved in the process of prayer. Like, I'm asking you guys to pray for me, and then I'm asking my grandparents or my parents to pray for me. 


[00:36:21] Gina: Or the patron saint of puppies. 


[00:36:23] Ben: Any number of things. Like, any number of, you know, people who are no longer with us but are up in heaven. Now, that is, oh, sorry, go ahead, go for it, Cody. 


[00:36:32] Cody: Isaiah 8, 19, when someone tells you to consult mediums and spiritualists who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? 


[00:36:42] Why consult the dead on behalf of the living? So, wouldn't that still be consulting the dead? So, 


[00:36:49] Ben: I would agree with you, but the Catholic apologists do reference that verse and they say that does not apply because they are asking for someone else to pray for you. It's not that you're inquiring of the dead of anything necessarily, it's that you are asking the dead to pray for you. 


[00:37:03] Cody: So you can only pray to the dead people. You can't ask someone to pray to the dead people for you. I 


[00:37:10] Gina: think you need to clarify whether it's just any Joe Schmo or if it's a saint. 


[00:37:14] Ben: So the Catholic Church's position is that it does have to be someone who is in heaven. Really, the only people you can be certain of as being in heaven are the saints. 


[00:37:23] Because if you were even a really good Catholic, if you die in a state I don't want to get too much into Catholic theology here because it's a bit complicated. We mentioned mortal and venial sins in the past. Essentially, if you've committed enough non grace threatening sins and you end up in purgatory, you're in a state of suffering and eventually you will suffer enough to the point where you're purified and you can go to heaven. 


[00:37:46] But if you die in a state outside of grace, so you commit a mortal sin, and you aren't forgiven of that sin in time, you're You die in a state outside of grace, you go to hell. 


[00:37:56] Gina: This sounds like a Disney movie. 


[00:37:58] Ben: It does a bit. But the point is that for most Catholics you cannot, and this is actually a very sad aspect of Catholic theology. 


[00:38:06] There was a woman I was listening to was being interviewed by Mike Winger. And she was talking about a conversation she once had with a Catholic bishop. And she asked the Catholic bishop if he was going to heaven. And he said, I genuinely don't know. That's a very sad response to hear from somebody. He genuinely didn't know if he was going to die in a state outside of grace and God was just going to send him straight to hell or not. 


[00:38:28] Or if he was going to die in a state where he had committed too many venial sins and would end up in purgatory and would have to wait a while till he was going to heaven. So yeah, in answer to your question, they do generally say prayer to the saints because the saints are the people they know are in heaven. 


[00:38:43] But hypothetically, if you knew someone really well and they're like, yeah, no, I know that person is definitely in heaven. Hypothetically, if they are in heaven, you could pray to them. 


[00:38:51] Cody: I don't even know how to respond to that. You have to, is there any other source text that they use besides? So yeah, there's that, and 


[00:39:00] Ben: then Romans, like you mentioned, Romans or 


[00:39:03] Cody: Revelations, 


[00:39:04] Ben: or sorry, Revelation. 


[00:39:04] Okay. So where was that? Revelations. Revelations. 


[00:39:09] Gina: It's only one, Cody. 


[00:39:10] Ben: So yeah, the second source text that they have, as far as scripture goes, it's, it's Is Revelation chapter five, verse six through eight, and between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders, I saw a lamb standing as though it had been slain with seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out over all the earth. 


[00:39:30] And he went and took the scroll from the right hand of him was seated on the throne, and when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the 24 elders fell down before the lamb, each holding a harp. And golden bowls of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. That last part is the important part according to Catholic apologists, because they claim that the 24 elders falling down before the lamb, they're holding golden bowls full of incense. 


[00:39:55] And those golden bowls per the, per the text are the prayers of saints. And the argument they're making is that because those 24 elders have bowls full of incense that represent the prayers of the saints, that means that saints in heaven can hear you and bring your prayers to God. I'll, I'll be honest with you guys, that's a leap. 


[00:40:18] That's an enormous leap. Like, 


[00:40:20] Cody: yeah, 


[00:40:20] Ben: I'll, I'll be honest. The previous scripture, it's the stronger of the two, but even that is a leap. 


[00:40:26] Gina: The problem that I have with this doctrine is that it takes the responsibility of the relationship between the believer and God and puts these middlemen, and I know from experience that in the Catholic Church, the middlemen are not just the saints and not just Mary, and not just Jesus, but then you have the priest and the hierarchy within the Catholic Church, and It just, it becomes so separated that then you're basically relying on other people to have a relationship with God for you and advocate for you instead of going to God yourself. 


[00:41:06] And I'm not saying that to be mean, it's just my own personal observation, having grown up in the Catholic Church and also having family that's Catholic now. They don't have the connection with God that I do as a Christian outside of the Catholic Church in prayer. That's not to say they don't have a relationship with God. 


[00:41:27] It's just they don't understand how to have that relationship the same way that non Catholics seem to. Is that unfair? 


[00:41:36] Ben: I don't know that's unfair. So, for this particular question, let's set up two scenarios here. Let's say that I have a very serious issue and I really need to pray about it. So what I do is I go out and I grab you, Gina, and you, Cody, and then I go send out a text thread to as many people from our church as possible, and I say, look, guys, this is something very serious, and I really need your guys help with this. 


[00:42:00] Could you all come together and pray for me? Or even not all come together, just everyone pray. And I know that everyone's praying, and everyone lets me know that they're praying. Even more powerfully, we all get together for a time of prayer, and we pray for one another. And there have been times where I've done that. 


[00:42:15] You, actual prayer groups, you come together and everyone starts praying for one another. It's a beautiful thing. Now, in the second scenario, I don't go to anyone. I don't go to you, Gina, or you, Cody. Literally, all I do is I pray to as many people, and as many saints, as I can. Will I get the same effect? 


[00:42:32] Gina: It's roulette. 


[00:42:34] God's gonna answer you one way or the other. 


[00:42:36] Ben: Sure, but it's not about whether or not God answers. In one instance, there's edification. Mutual edification between believers. There's a buildup of trust, of love, in an event where we're all praying, not just for me, but for one another. When I'm sitting by myself, and involving thousands of people, but it's just me in my room, it's not the same effect. 


[00:42:57] Assuming that the Catholic reasoning is right on this. 


[00:43:00] Gina: But, if you're Catholic, it's incredibly edifying to pray to the saints. 


[00:43:05] Ben: It's not edifying in the same way, on its face. If I go and I pray in person with a bunch of other people, I ask them what they need prayer for. We're building one another up. And even when you're praying for someone who is not Christian, if you ask someone, hey, I hear you have a problem, can I pray for you? 


[00:43:19] How often do people actually say no? 


[00:43:21] Gina: I've, I've been told no twice, ever. 


[00:43:23] Ben: It's very rare, and people actually really like it. You're letting them know that you care about them. 


[00:43:27] Cody: You're sharing the burden. I think that's how, how do you share the burden with people? A 


[00:43:32] Ben: dead saint. Thank you for putting it that way because I was struggling for the words to really Express what it is. 


[00:43:38] I was thinking but you're right. It is sharing the burden. You can't share the burden with the dead The only dead who can help you share your burden is christ and he's alive. 


[00:43:46] Gina: Amen We're done 


[00:43:49] Ben: But that's the reality here even trying to steal man this position as much as we can and say it's done in good faith It's two people that they genuinely believe can hear you and we don't know what the church can hear So let's say that they can hear you So, 


[00:44:08] Cody: how do you quantify, like, how do you quantify prayer then? 


[00:44:12] Because you're not going to always get what you want. I mean, there, there's power in numbers, but you're still not going to get what you want all the time. I mean, there's that entire church praying for that girl who died and they kept prolonging something and preventing the closure for that family for something that never happened. 


[00:44:32] So how do you, 


[00:44:34] Gina: I know what you're asking, like God says, no, no. And then, you know, your well meaning pastors like. Listen, God's not going to answer my prayer. You say that to your well meaning pastor, and they're like, don't put God in a box. Don't limit what he can do. He can do anything because Jesus and power and yay. 


[00:44:55] And then it's, but God has spoken and we're waiting for more, even though God has already spoken that kind of a thing. 


[00:45:02] Ben: Just as you said, when you're sharing the burden, you're sharing the burden either way. If the prayer is accepted, if God grants the prayer, if he answers your prayer. You all rejoice together, and if he says no, you all grieve together, but that's the point. 


[00:45:16] You do it together. I can tell you with 100 percent certainty if you try to grieve alone, you're gonna have a miserable time of it. And if you're grieving with the rest of your church, and you were all praying for something actively together, there's edification that you can go through in the process. 


[00:45:31] Gina: Like, 


[00:45:32] Ben: it's rough, but you can do it. 


[00:45:34] Gina: I just don't know if that exists in our non denominational culture. 


[00:45:37] Ben: Whether or not it exists in a specific culture that you have, The point is that it's possible when you gather people together and you pray and we're talking about the ideal just as we're steel manning the one position, you steel man the other. 


[00:45:49] Gina: No, I get it. But so I really do respect the reverence of the Catholic church and how they really do a good job of showing honor and glory to God in their prayers. There's a lot of reverence, even Though some of the prayers are, like, to Mary, they're still very complementary. We'll get to that. But I'm saying, like, our prayer life on, like, our side of things outside of the Catholic Church, being who we are, three people, I don't believe that we are nearly as reverent and as respectful as we should be. 


[00:46:28] So, like, we speak in ideals, but I'm, like, thinking that doesn't exist. 


[00:46:31] Ben: It's not that it doesn't exist. It's that it's an ideal that you haven't realized. It's that And by realized, I mean, I've achieved. 


[00:46:38] Gina: Yeah, no, but it's not us three as much as it's just like the entirety of the modern mainstream Christian Church right now. 


[00:46:48] Cody: Yeah, but you can argue with There is that? recital of prayer and this recital of reverence, but is it actual reverence, or is it just a facade that they put on because it's another motion to go through? That's what we see in our church, or not necessarily our church, but non denominational churches, is still people going through the motions. 


[00:47:12] It's just going to be, they're the Sunday Christian and that's it. And you can still have that with the tradition of Catholicism. Like you still have the people going through the motions that don't actually know why they're doing what they're doing. 


[00:47:27] Ben: Yeah, Jim Gaffigan, I don't know if any of you guys I 


[00:47:29] Gina: did not expect that. 


[00:47:32] Ben: Jim Gaffigan has a number of bits that he does because he's Catholic. He's like, I've never read the Bible. I don't have to, cause I'm Catholic. And he talks about, you know, being really bored at Mass. He's like, Ah, Ah, Ah, Amen already! I got sinning to do! And it's, yeah, there are a lot of Catholics who approach it that way. 


[00:47:50] I don't have to read the Bible, cause the Church is just gonna tell me everything I need to believe. I'm gonna go in, I'm gonna go to Mass, I'm gonna get forgiven of whatever, you know, venial or mortal sins I happen to have because I don't want to go to hell and I'm going to leave. It's there is that bare minimum that's met in all churches, no matter where you are. 


[00:48:05] And I get it. There is the idea that there's the untouchable, unknowable nature of God, and there is reverence in that. 


[00:48:12] Cody: But is that a persona? So we're talking about prayer here and praying to saints, but you almost have this untouchableness of God, like the RCC still kind of tries to Put the Levitical Old Covenant priesthood in place where you need this represent to our of God to commune on your behalf. 


[00:48:40] The high priest can only go into the Holy Holies once a year and He has to atone for the entire nation during that time And you still, even with how confession works and prayer works, it's almost you have to have this middle man, the Catholic church being the middle man to get to God. Agreed. 


[00:49:03] Ben: There are some other issues with the steel man version of praying to saints that, that exists. 


[00:49:10] For one, how many people after they said a prayer to a saint immediately then start praying to Jesus? Ultimately, these prayers are treated as substitutions and it's not what I 


[00:49:20] Gina: was kind of hinting at before. 


[00:49:21] Ben: Yeah, it's not really that because when you're praying with other people or asking them to pray, like again, I wouldn't come to you guys and say, Hey, could you pray for me? 


[00:49:30] Thanks. And then that's like, Ooh, I'm glad I got that off my chest, but you guys are holier than me. So, you know, God's more likely to listen to you guys. I'm just me. But that 


[00:49:41] Gina: brings. It's up a really good point for somebody like me who became a Christian as an adult. It's very easy to fall into the trap of believing that other people have special reaching capabilities with God. 


[00:49:53] Like, oh such and such has the spiritual gift of tongues, so their tongues must mean something more than my prayers because, and it's like stupid misconceptions that you come up with in your own mind and nobody teaches you that. But it's very easy to fall into that trap, and that's a good point to make. 


[00:50:11] Ben: Absolutely. And I do find that most of the stumbling points, not just in church history, but in our own individual daily lives. It comes from the idea that, okay, we need to have someone special, give unto us a king. It's something that Israel had. They had the judges, they had their system, God was their king. 


[00:50:28] It says repeatedly throughout the entire book of Judges, every man did as he saw fit. As tough as some of those times were, that was the time where God was the king of Israel. Then eventually they're like, okay, all the other nations on earth have kings. We gotta have a king. And then God said, okay, you guys can have a king. 


[00:50:45] He told Samuel, give them a king, but recognize that this is them rejecting me and choosing a king of their own. We have this, as humans, I genuinely believe this, we have this impulse to think, okay, there has to be someone out there better than me, because I don't know what I'm doing. And there has to be someone out there, because I see all these people and they seem so smart, and they seem so competent. 


[00:51:05] They have to know what they're doing. I want them, I want what they have. And I want them to be able to tell me just what I'm doing wrong. I just want a clear answer. 


[00:51:15] Gina: Why did you just have to describe our freaking political system? 


[00:51:20] Ben: And that's ultimately that's not what the founders wanted. One, the founders didn't want to constantly be referred to as the founders. 


[00:51:26] They didn't want to be pedestalized and viewed as these ultimate holy men. But the forefathers. But there is value in referring to them and their faith, because the truth is as flawed as they are. And the more you learn about them, the more you realize how flawed a man they were. And they would all admit to it. 


[00:51:43] They were great men and flawed men. But one of their biggest commonalities was that they all loved the Lord. And I know there's a lot of people who say, No, they were all secular and humanists and just theists. No, they weren't. Like, We do 


[00:51:58] Gina: have a way of always wanting to be led, and I think that's, it's why God calls us sheep. 


[00:52:05] Ben: In many ways, yeah. 


[00:52:07] Gina: But we're more like goats, because we'll eat anything. 


[00:52:09] Ben: But the thing is, each of us is called to be led individually by God. Now, there will be leaders, but we're stressed repeatedly. Throughout all of the Bible, all the kings of Israel were horrible. Even the good kings were horrible. All of them. 


[00:52:24] Gina: But they wrote pretty poems. 


[00:52:26] Ben: Yeah, David wrote pretty poems, and he also did a lot of horrible things. The Bible repeatedly stresses the only perfect person is God himself. The only person who should rule in your life is God himself. There are people who can help you with that, help you along in your journey. 


[00:52:39] But you have to recognize them for who they are. They're not perfect people. They're not meant to be kings. They're meant to be guides. But yeah, as far as prayer to the saints, because we do need to kind of loop this back. Prayer to the saints. What do you guys think? Is that okay? Is this a rib or spine issue? 


[00:52:54] And then do you agree with it or disagree with it? 


[00:52:56] Gina: I view prayer to anybody but God or the Holy Spirit or Jesus as idolatry. I don't believe that any man ever created outside of Jesus has any kind of power or authority to grant prayers or to accomplish anything after they're dead. And do I think it's comforting for some people? 


[00:53:20] Probably, but I do find it to be a form of idolatry and I don't think that it is the best way to pray. 


[00:53:28] Cody: I just don't get the point. If I could go directly to the source, why would I involve dead people that I can't commune with or talk with or get support from? 


[00:53:39] Gina: There are Growing up, we did All Saints Day and had the little handbooks of who the Saints were and what their lives were, and there were some really interesting movies about some of the Saints and things that they did. 


[00:53:53] So there, there is a certain amount of, I don't know, feeling understood or feeling like you're not alone because you find, uh, A saint that has this really inspirational story, or they've done something or lived through something that you have. And I could see how it would be comforting or it would be inspirational or it would make you feel like, Oh, they're the patron saint of whatever it is that I'm worrying about. 


[00:54:16] And so therefore it doesn't hurt to add them in for whatever I'm praying for. But like Ben mentioned, like, if that's your end all be all, and you're like, okay, patron saint of whatever, this is what I need, please help me. And then you're done and you don't go to God. There's a major problem there, but also not understanding that God is the patron God of everything. 


[00:54:38] You don't have to go to the individual saint when you have the source. Like, I can see it both ways, but ultimately it's still idolatry. 


[00:54:47] Ben: I have a lot of issues with this specific doctrine. And while I've done my best to present the steel manned version of this, the reality is, there's no real good argument for the steel manned position, except that it is the position of the Catholic Church, and the Catholic Church deems its dogma to be infallible. 


[00:55:05] If you go from the perspective of, okay, that's fine, whatever, but I want to see it in the Bible, you're not going to find it. And for the two verses that we just quoted, and that's all over the place as far as the Catholic apologists sites are concerned, and I tried really hard to find more justification, this is basically it. 


[00:55:24] Those two verses, Hebrews and Revelation, those do not talk about being able to pray to the saints. At best, you can say that the saints are aware of us, and no one knows that for sure. At worst, they don't. They just know that we're here, and we know, they know about the general struggles, just like we can know about the general struggles of the church in China. 


[00:55:45] Yeah, I know that the church in China exists and I could pray for them as much as I want. I don't know them. I can't hear their prayers. And beyond that, if you are wrong, what are you praying to? It's like what, Cody, the, what was the verse? Isaiah 8, 19. 


[00:56:00] Cody: Do you want me to read it again? 


[00:56:01] Ben: Please, just as a refresher. 


[00:56:03] Cody: When someone tells you to consult mediums and spiritualists who whisper and mutter should not a people inquire of their God, why consult the dead on behalf of the living? 


[00:56:16] Ben: So yeah, at best you're talking to someone in heaven who can't have a relationship with you, and you could be talking to people on earth and you're substituting prayer to Christ for prayer to someone who then talks to Christ rather than you talking to someone. 


[00:56:32] Asking them to pray for you and simultaneously with them praying to Christ in a way that is not mutually beneficial to both parties who are praying. That's the best. At worst, you're doing something evil that's forbidden by the Bible. That's at worst. Now there may be some space in between where it's you're just talking to nobody, 


[00:56:50] Gina: but it's not God Correct, and that kind of attention is something God forbids. 


[00:56:58] Cody: Is prayer a form of worship? 


[00:57:00] Gina: Yes, 


[00:57:01] Ben: how 


[00:57:01] Cody: why what do you think? 


[00:57:03] Ben: Yes, there's what I think what what Ben believes and then there's the Catholic response, which oddly enough is yes and no But from my position, yes, absolutely it is You So that right there would be idolatry. Correct. Yeah. Idolatry. And that is actually the biggest point. 


[00:57:21] It's that you are doing something that is reserved for God, an honor reserved for God, and you are applying it to people. Now that's if you assume. that prayer is worship, but for obvious reasons, Catholics don't view prayer as worship necessarily. 


[00:57:38] Cody: So they view it as like veneration, which is like reverence, correct? 


[00:57:43] Ben: Yes. Okay. So yeah, that, that does beg the next question. Okay. Is prayer worship? We would all say yes. And one of the big reasons that we would say that is because one, every time someone says a prayer to anything other than God in the Bible, anywhere, it's idolatry. Literally, you will not find a point where anyone prays to anything that is not God and is not considered idolatry. 


[00:58:05] There are points where people attempt to pray to angels, and they say, no, don't do that. Correct. I'm pretty sure 


[00:58:12] Gina: Catholics pray to angels, too. They do. 


[00:58:14] Cody: They view them as saints, though. Yes. So there's St. Michael, St. Gabriel. They're still saints, but they're angels. Revelation 19. 10 is one of those 


[00:58:22] Ben: ones where the angels, nope, they And it's also found in Daniel, I believe, where Daniel attempts to pray before Gabriel, and Gabriel says, no, I'm a servant, don't pray to me. 


[00:58:32] There are multiple points throughout the Bible where people try to pray to things that aren't, that are godly people, and then they're just warned, no, don't do that. I 


[00:58:40] Cody: think Peter even does that, I think, to Cornelius or something. 


[00:58:45] Gina: There's a story where, I can't remember which prophet, presents food, like cooks food for an It's like an offering, and the angel destroys it. 


[00:58:54] Angels do not want us to offer or pray to them. Yeah, 


[00:58:57] Cody: but I think they ate something with Abraham, I think. 


[00:59:00] Gina: Angels? 


[00:59:01] Cody: Yeah. And some people, it was two angels and what people would say is Jesus, the angel of the Lord specifically. 


[00:59:10] Ben: And so a lot of the, the backup that Catholics will bring into this is not scripture based, but tradition based. 


[00:59:18] And so they'll point to certain people like origin and they'll say origin, uh, That's a bad one to pick. Well, but that's the thing that blows my mind about this. I'm sorry. Genuinely, anyone who's Catholic and you're listening to this and you think that we're picking on you or we're lying about things, I know that you've been told certain things. 


[00:59:34] There are a number of Catholic apologists who will come forward and say, okay. Origin definitely said it's okay to pray both to saints and to angels. And to back this up, I actually included some of this. I was gonna say, I saw 


[00:59:46] Cody: his, but I didn't put it, because he's kind of viewed as a heretic for his view on Jesus. 


[00:59:52] It depends. 


[00:59:52] Gina: Some of this, too, is Almost, I don't want to compare it, but it's almost kind of like the Mormon church where you have to get in deep enough and then they start telling you what they really believe, but it's not layman's sort of information. The 


[01:00:07] Cody: thing with Catholicism, though, is like, even throughout history before Internet existed, like, all of this stuff was written down and tracked and after the Reformation, when they couldn't hide everything, you could look up this information as. 


[01:00:22] Kind of the average person. Yeah, 


[01:00:24] Gina: but my point is the average person the average Catholic isn't Taking it this far 


[01:00:31] Ben: Agree, there's a lot of surface level thought and that's why I do think that there are people who Participate in prayer to the saints and prayer to mary and we'll get into that in a second What what i'm 


[01:00:39] Gina: saying is like there may be catholics who are listening that are like we don't do that 


[01:00:43] Cody: I don't know a catholic who hasn't said a hail mary though Yeah, that's it. 


[01:00:46] No, 


[01:00:46] Gina: but some of the other prayers and things that you guys have included. I grew up in the catholic church I'm i'm Literally family friends with the Archbishop of Toronto, been to so many masses it's not even funny, and never heard some of this stuff. 


[01:00:59] Ben: That's understandable, and honestly, there are going to be things in the Bible that people who are Protestant have never heard of either, and we're more or less all Sola Scriptura, which means Bible above everything else, so you would think we would know everything about it, and we don't. 


[01:01:12] Cody: It's a lot easier to pick apart. Catholicism on this though, because of their viewpoint on infallibility of tradition in the church, because all of this, like some of the stuff we put in was either spoken directly by the Pope, which is the Vicar of Christ, who is the placement of Christ on earth is what they believe. 


[01:01:32] And. Either that or just the Vatican's stamp of approval from other people who wrote these. 


[01:01:39] Ben: But even, not going with it, like, there was a recently kind of a back and forth, I think it was a few months ago, between Dr. Gavin Ortland, who's, he's a PhD specifically in church history. He really knows his church history. 


[01:01:51] And there was a Catholic apologist who was having a back and forth with him specifically on the subject. about the prayer to saints. And I encourage everyone to look up Dr. Gavin as well as his videos on this subject because he's very thorough and he does his homework and he puts screenshots up of literally everything and he gives you the full context. 


[01:02:06] But essentially the Catholic apologist who was arguing with him that you can pray to the saints and origin from way back in the day. Like third century I think is origin. So they're trying to make the connection that prayer to the saints was accepted in the very, very early church and thus is okay. 


[01:02:20] Because it's been there from the very beginning. And to support this, he cites Origen, Contra Celsus, 864. We may indeed boldly say that men who aspire after better things have, when they pray to God, tens of thousands of sacred powers upon their side. These, even when not asked to pray with them, they bring succor to our mortal race, and if I may so say, take up arms alongside of it, for they see demons warring and fighting most keenly against the salvation of those who devote themselves to God and despise the hostility of demons. 


[01:02:55] In there, just from that segment, it seems to be that Origen is saying that the angels and the saints in heaven, even when not asked, are praying for us. Which is kind of what you get in the Revelation depiction. Yeah, I don't think that once you die, you completely forget that the church exists. 


[01:03:11] Gina: I think the holdup for me is that I don't believe that, I don't know, I don't know what I believe yet on what defines the church, like that specific word in that verse. 


[01:03:23] Do I believe that all Christians that have ever died are included? In that grouping. I don't know about that 


[01:03:29] Ben: So the early church from what everything that i've seen Genuinely did believe that the church in heaven was aware of us Because obviously they would be at the very least because you see that in 


[01:03:39] Gina: renaissance art and different things like that 


[01:03:41] Ben: Yeah, and I don't think that's unreasonable as far as how much they know. 


[01:03:45] We don't know but Specifically as far as origin is concerned. He did not believe you could pray to anyone in heaven. You can only take that position if you've read tiny bits of Origen and not read the rest of them. So yeah, the whole case rests on, essentially, a few cherry picked areas from Origen. This is what Origen says specifically about praying to angels in, against Celsus, because Celsus was a guy who was kind of taking up a, Contrary position, there was a bit of an arch nemesis type thing between Origen and Celsus. 


[01:04:13] But yeah, he specifically says in, again, Celsus 5. 4, having thus learned to call these beings angels from their employments, we find that because they are divine, they are sometimes termed God in the sacred scriptures. But not so that we are commanded to honor and worship in place of God those who minister to us and bear to us His blessings. 


[01:04:34] Essentially, don't pray to angels. It doesn't matter what we think they are. It doesn't matter if they're referred to in some way as God in scripture, or lowercase g. They're not gods, don't pray to them, don't worship them. He says this about the saints. He says this about everyone who's died, all the angels in heaven. 


[01:04:48] And he says this at multiple points. I'm not going to go through all of it. I wish I had the time to do all of them, but I feel that would be a bit excessive. It's enough to say that Origen was very clear, and he stated it multiple times throughout multiple books, because he was adamant about this position, because what's tempting us now is not unique to us. 


[01:05:04] It was tempting them then. They wanted to reach out to the dead, and they wanted to reach out to people other than the dead. And it was very clear to Origen, as well as many other early church fathers, no, don't do it. 


[01:05:14] Cody: Again, that's where, like, why would I, even if Origen confirmed it, why would I take his word for it when I'm not seeing anything in Scripture about it? 


[01:05:24] If I'm supposed to test everything and that's what the Bible tells me to do, why, why would I believe what some guy said? And don't get me wrong. I love. Early church fathers, you know, a lot of wisdom, like I love reading those guys and origin, I actually enjoy even with his controversial, controversial, he's a heretic, but like he did so much great things for the, the hexapod and like all of this stuff that he did great things for what we have today, but why would. 


[01:05:55] I take what he says, if I can't see that in scripture at all. 


[01:05:59] Ben: I think the ultimate question is, because you're right, it's irrelevant. One, it's not what Origen said, but two, even if it was what he said, even if we just said that throughout all of church history, past literally the first church, because we have what the first church believed in the form of scripture. 


[01:06:14] But past that point, let's say that they all started praying to the saints and praying to angels. Do we do that now? And no, the answer is no. 


[01:06:21] Gina: This can all be tied back to the Lord's Prayer too. That's Jesus says, pray like this, our Father, not Mary, not saints. Thank you so much for taking the time to listen to our podcast today. 


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