What Are Demons? Part 3

[00:00:00] Cody: Hi, thank you for tuning in to the logic of God podcast. I'm Cody 


[00:00:14] Gina: and Gina, 


[00:00:15] Cody: and I'm Ben. If you're returning, thank you for coming back. And if you are a new guest, welcome. Now, 


[00:00:42] Ben: I do think that it's worth it. Covering here because I know someone is probably going to bring it up That there is a mention in the Old Testament of an attempt to contact the dead That seemingly succeeds and that's the story of I believe it's the witch of Endor 


[00:00:59] Gina: and Samuel. 


[00:01:00] Ben: Yeah and Samuel Now, there are a few issues with that story. 


[00:01:03] Real quick, going into the story, uh, the king Saul at the time was struggling a lot, and he was trying to inquire of the Lord. There were no prophets left for him to inquire through, and he wasn't hearing from God at all. In the end, he tried to seek out a medium, or a spiritist, to contact the spirit of Samuel so that he could talk to Samuel. 


[00:01:24] Samuel was a prophet who would live during the time of Saul, so Saul knew That Samuel was a prophet and a holy man and probably have answers from God about what it is that he's searching for. So he went to the witch of Endor and he talked to her and she supposedly conjured up the spirit of Samuel. 


[00:01:43] Gina: He wasn't happy about that. 


[00:01:45] Ben: No, there are actually a few issues with that story. One, the witch is surprised when it happens. If this is something that she habitually does, then why would she be surprised when it works? Two, Saul doesn't see anything. Only the witch does. If you actually read the text, it says, What do you see? Meaning Saul talking to the witch. 


[00:02:05] And she sees According to her, a spirit rising up from the earth. Three, she basically tells him exactly what it is he already knows. She just tells him that his reign's over. Which anyone paying any attention at that time would have known. That's not to say that she didn't see something, Or that 


[00:02:23] Gina: God didn't do something. 


[00:02:24] Ben: Correct. Or that God didn't do something. However, there are just too many details in that story for someone to look at that and say, See, obviously this means that objectively, You can call on the spirits of the dead and a ghost will show up. But I don't know. That's my position on it. What do you guys think? 


[00:02:39] Gina: So I grew up and I've shared, but I grew up with my mom, single mom. She was very involved in the occult and she used to have mediums come to the house with a group of people and we would get told, don't get, don't come out of your rooms. And they would have these seances and things showed up. And I knew this because of the way that. 


[00:03:05] They talked afterwards when they didn't really think I could hear, and some of the stuff that was said, and some of the stuff that was made known, even though nobody in the group knew these things. And also, just the feeling in my home, like the spiritual feeling, was so heavy and dark when those things were happening and afterwards. 


[00:03:29] It was like being smothered feeling. So, you pay a lot of money to have somebody come and tell your fortune or talk to the dead or whatever. And then, you have this like, blanket over your head that you can't really take off. You're like, you're suffocating feeling. And, so if you're calling on something and, expecting it to tell you something, like you're probably going to hear something. 


[00:03:52] It's either a very manipulative, intelligent person that can take advantage of you, or it's something truly evil that knows your weaknesses and is preying on them, but it's not a dead person. There was a time where my stepmom went to see a medium and the medium told her that they saw her mother with a baby that had passed away in the womb. 


[00:04:16] And Of course, she's freaking out, my stepmom, thinking, Oh, that's Gina's baby. Cause I had just lost a baby. And she was like, tell your daughter that her baby's safe and that your mom is taking care of it. And I was, like, really hurting at the time. So I was like, why? What does this mean? And I know now what it meant. 


[00:04:36] But I was trying to figure it out for a couple of months and Cody and I talked about it and it was just sad. Like, it was hurtful to even have it brought back up. It's sad. And to hear, like, that the child's with some dead lady instead of 


[00:04:49] Mm hmm. 


[00:04:50] Gina: And to tell me that the baby is safe and stuff. Like, I was already reassured of that. 


[00:04:55] Demons know stuff. Like, they watch. And they poke us when we're weak. And it's not like Satan wants to get our attention when we're low and bring us what we think is comfort and information and healing and closure. What I've learned is that this pursuit doesn't really bring you closure. It costs you a lot of money, it costs you spiritually, and you end up always wanting more. 


[00:05:22] It's never satisfying. And that's what I've seen in my whole family, because they've all dabbled in it. My mom was the worst. But you just don't understand what you're asking for. What you're really bringing down on yourself and your family, because Satan didn't just prey on my stepmom's vulnerabilities. 


[00:05:39] He preyed on me through her and it was very slick and There were a lot of tears and a lot of confusion and I knew better But it was still very shocking and confusing to me Be careful Even who you talk to about these things because if you're associating with somebody who's doing it Satan's still gonna try to get at you 


[00:05:58] Ben: and that does actually bring us nicely into our next section here 


[00:06:02] Gina: Do we want to say quickly what are not demons? 


[00:06:05] Ben: Sure. So what, we've talked about what demons are, what aren't they? 


[00:06:10] Gina: They're not all knowing. They're not all powerful. They can't read our minds. 


[00:06:15] Ben: So how do you know that they can't read your mind? 


[00:06:17] Gina: Because only God is omniscient. I have to invite them into my mind. And I haven't done that. So, I don't believe that my mind is accessible to the enemy. 


[00:06:27] I don't know what you think. I've heard 


[00:06:30] Ben: from a lot of different people that the devil and demons and whatnot can't read your mind. I don't know if that's true. I know that they can whisper things into your mind. They can make you think things, or In the same way that when I say something to you, I can make you think something because I'm speaking words to you. 


[00:06:48] They speak words inaudibly, and the message gets into your head. And if you accept that thought and make it yours, then it's yours. But if you don't, and you just roll your eyes and you move on with your life, it's not you. How involved they are with your mind at that point, I don't know. Whether it is literally the same thing as just speaking into your ear, and you not hearing the words, but getting the idea. 


[00:07:10] Or them literally connecting to your mind in some way and Sometimes the things that they'll do are a little on point and it's tough to see how they could know certain things Without having some insight knowledge, but it's also been said they're just very good at reading people 


[00:07:27] Gina: Satan is a master manipulator. 


[00:07:29] Like he invented manipulation if you think you're good at it. Satan's a hundred thousand times better and What I've learned from my mom is that if my name is on her lips because of what she's doing Then my name is on Satan's ears and he knows things about me that I haven't shared because of her and That's what I've seen in different attacks that we've had different situations where Cody's have felt evil and Just had really weird experiences I know for a fact that my mind is closed to the enemy But I know that things come up because other people have shared things I've never personally experienced having my mind invaded in that way. 


[00:08:15] And I lived through a lot of occult activity that I haven't shared, but it's, I don't know, I feel very confident that. My mind is not accessible to the enemy. 


[00:08:24] Ben: And if I'm honest, that does make sense to me. If you live your entire life thinking, Oh my goodness, this God hears my thoughts, but also demons hear my thoughts. 


[00:08:32] So I got to be careful about literally everything that I think, no, you should be careful about what you think anyway, but to neurotically feel like the enemy is just crouching in a corner of your mind, listening to your every thought, and it's going to use every thought against you. And twist your thoughts and change you. 


[00:08:48] That's insanity. 


[00:08:49] Ben: That will drive you insane. And the truth is, while we are emphasizing the fact that this is not something that you play with, in context, demons are losers. They have lost. And everything that they are doing is a pathetic, sad attempt at revenge against God. 


[00:09:07] Gina: It's like creature on a leash. 


[00:09:09] There's only so far they can go before their chain runs out. And you have to live in confidence of that because media wants you to believe that Satan knows everything and has all this power. And there's all kinds of TV shows and movies and even Christian stuff that overplays his cards a little bit. 


[00:09:25] He's not that strong. 


[00:09:26] Ben: And I'm glad you brought that up because there is the common trope that's presented in TV of selling your soul to the devil. What do you guys think? Can you? 


[00:09:35] Gina: You can commit your eternal soul and that of your family to marry. We know that. 


[00:09:41] Cody: This is not an episode on that. Do I think you could sell your soul? 


[00:09:45] No. Do I think people are tricked into believing that they can and it prevents them from pursuing God later on? Yeah, I think people are naive and stupid and will believe anything. If you believe that the devil can buy your soul, then, or you can sell your soul for fame, I don't think he has more power than God. 


[00:10:06] If God wants your soul, he's going to get it. 


[00:10:09] Gina: Do you believe that those sacrifices that like people will make to sell their soul, whatever it is that they're agreeing to, do you believe that? Gives a modicum of power to the enemy or to demons or do you believe that they are status quo forever? Does the attention or the sacrifice actually mean anything to them 


[00:10:29] Ben: from what I understand? 


[00:10:30] It means something in as much as The symbology means something. You can't boost a demon's power in any way. Their power is their power. What God lets them do, effectively, is what they can do, seemingly. And what they can do is not very much. However, there are people who do rituals or whatnot, and effectively, that's a very open way of saying, Hey, come here and do whatever you want with me. 


[00:10:56] That is the thing that lets the enemy in. It could be literally anything. 


[00:11:00] Gina: So you're putting spirit into flesh. 


[00:11:03] Ben: Mm hmm. 


[00:11:04] Gina: And it's living out or acting out through a human being, whether it's through possession or influence or oppression. And 


[00:11:12] Ben: we'll get to that. Yeah. But essentially, the rituals themselves don't do anything. 


[00:11:16] Lamb's blood or ram's blood or cow's blood. It doesn't actually have any mystical properties that somehow empower something to do something. It's all symbology. 


[00:11:28] Gina: So what you're doing is swearing loyalty, which is getting you access. 


[00:11:32] Cody: They get the spit in the face of God, which is what they want. And that's what they're getting out of that transaction, so to speak. 


[00:11:43] Having somebody constantly spit in the face of God by doing this blood sacrifice or whatever it is that a demon would request. They're just pushing that further corruption. Even if it's the same thing over and over, you're repeating the corruption and repeating the process of spitting in God's face. 


[00:12:04] Ben: Effectively, animal sacrifice at the very beginning was supposed to be something that pointed the Jewish people in the direction of God. It was letting them know that they couldn't atone for their own sins. And one day, God was going to supply the offering, but they were constantly being reinforced over and over that there needed to be an offering, and no matter what, they could not make themselves right with God, and ultimately, God was the one who, like in the time of Abraham, when Abraham was going to sacrifice Isaac, God provided the sacrifice. 


[00:12:34] Then, now, God has provided Christ. Evil looks at that and says, That's great. I hate God. I hate everything that he's made. I hate everything that he loves. This is meant to be a symbol of his love for man. His ultimate sacrifice. The thing that he is pointing toward. I'm going to corrupt this. I'm going to make it a mockery. 


[00:12:56] I'm going to corrupt it in every reasonable and unreasonable way possible. That's what I want. That's what I want you to do. And effectively, when a human being partakes of that kind of thing, they are also saying, I also, like you, hate God this much. I spit in God's face. I turn my back on everything that God has to offer. 


[00:13:15] I turn my back on his love. Now let's turn our backs on God together. And human beings, being as we are, as limited as we are, don't understand what that means. And there are plenty of people who buy into that, because they don't know what they're doing. And then later on in life, they feel regret. Because when they were young and stupid and feeling edgy, they did something really dumb. 


[00:13:38] Doing stuff like that does not automatically seal your soul off and give it to the devil. The reality is, your spirit is not yours. Christ's sacrifice ensured that. No matter who you are and what you've done, unless you in full knowledge reject God, then there is a way forward for you. No matter what you've done. 


[00:13:57] But still, It's a stupid thing to do. In fact, it's one of the most stupid things you can do. And you're not going to gain anything from it. 


[00:14:06] Gina: You think you're going to get the world, but you don't really want the world. The world is going to burn. It's going to be your jail cell. And, more than likely, people who are operating from that perspective are already very much imprisoned. 


[00:14:22] Ben: Now, Gina, before you mentioned demonic oppression versus possession, what do you mean by that? 


[00:14:29] Gina: So I think it's actually threefold. I think it's oppression, possession, and disease. 


[00:14:34] Okay. 


[00:14:35] Gina: I say that because of what happened in the New Testament when Jesus healed people of spirits that weren't necessarily demons, but more like illness. 


[00:14:46] Cody can talk to that a little bit more, I think. 


[00:14:48] Cody: I think scripture outlines the difference between a Disease versus a possession. There is some instances where, uh, a demonic possession manifested as seizures, but not all seizures are demonic possession, and the Bible is very clear about outlining those terms. 


[00:15:09] different cases. Like, when Jesus healed people, it wasn't always because they had a demon possession that they had the blind man or the lame man. Like, that wasn't a demon possession. There's a clear delineation when Jesus casts out a demon, that's not what he's doing when he's healing. And there's difference between disease and healing. 


[00:15:33] And because you hear a lot, especially in our modern time, that those weren't really demons, they were just sick. They're schizophrenic, they were epileptic, they were mentally ill, and that's what it was. But there's a clear differentiation between illness and demonic that 


[00:15:55] Ben: is in the Bible. I think you're right, and I think there are different conditions for being oppressed versus possessed. 


[00:16:03] For demonic oppression, it seems as if literally anybody can be demonically oppressed. It does seem to happen more frequently with people who are connected in some way, immersed in it. Either they're directly involved in the occult, or they're connected in some way to someone who is involved in the occult. 


[00:16:21] And it can be a few degrees of separation, but that's one of the reasons why you're told not to mess with it. That brushing shoulders with someone who is knee deep in that stuff, it's infectious. It's horrendously terrible. As far as possession, though, there aren't as, nearly as many instances in the New Testament of someone being possessed as oppressed. 


[00:16:44] And I would actually file disease as oppression when it's, when it involves an impure spirit. Because typically it involves something where there's nothing physically wrong with a person, but for whatever reason, something has manifested. Either they have some kind of manic thing where they just can't see or can't figure out what they're looking at, or there was a child who would, you know, throw himself into the fire, but seemed otherwise, you know, Just a kid, but for possession, there was the one guy. 


[00:17:12] I think his name was Simon. I can't remember if it, what, what the guy's name was, if he was even named, but there was a guy who lived off in the middle of nowhere and he was just living off in caves and. this particular area of Israel and no one could hold them down. Anytime they tried to bind them with chains, you could break the 


[00:17:30] Gina: legion. 


[00:17:31] Ben: Yes. 


[00:17:32] Gina: Yeah. 


[00:17:32] Ben: That wasn't the guy's name. 


[00:17:33] Gina: No, it was like the number of spirits. Yes. 


[00:17:35] Ben: There's a guy who claimed to be possessed by just a massive number of spirits. And Jesus asked for the name and he said legion for we are many, meaning there were just tons and tons of impure spirits in the sky and they basically had possessed him and they were speaking through him. 


[00:17:51] That is something that seems to be very rare where someone is fully taken over by an impure spirit or a demon or whatever you want to call it. Or 


[00:17:58] Gina: many of them. 


[00:17:59] Ben: Yeah, or many of them, and Jesus even makes reference to the fact where you can cast out a demon or an impure spirit, it wanders around for a while, it's like, you know what, I'm going to go home, comes back, finds everything well in order, and then invites seven other impure spirits more evil than itself. 


[00:18:13] So, from that you can extrapolate a few different things. 


[00:18:17] Gina: The demons just want to be cool, man. 


[00:18:18] Ben: Yeah, they're just bros, man, just hanging out. But from that you can extrapolate a few things. One, you can't be accidentally possessed. Oppression is a different thing. That's something where Either because you brush shoulders with someone and it's of no fault of your own, or for whatever reason, somehow a demon is just oppressing you because it just hates you, and because it hates God. 


[00:18:41] It can happen through no fault of your own. And in those instances, the cure is actually pretty simple. You rebuke it in Jesus name. In fact, that's the cure for all of this, whether it's demonic oppression versus possession. Christ gives us a very clear cure for all of this. You cast it out in Jesus name, and that's it. 


[00:19:01] Cody: Yeah, sometimes it requires fasting and prayer, but mm hmm. Yeah, it's pretty much cast it out in Jesus name. 


[00:19:07] Ben: And oddly enough, this is something that even non believers could do. It's not simply that the church has been given authority to cast out spirits, it's that Christ's name has the power to do it. 


[00:19:19] And there was a group of non believers who were going around just doing it, saying, in the name of Jesus Christ and, or sorry, in the name of Paul and of Jesus Christ, who Paul teaches, we command you to leave. And they were doing that to impure spirits all over the place and having great success, until eventually they encountered one that required fasting and prayer, and he said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know about. 


[00:19:42] But who are you? Which, oddly enough, I think is actually a point in the favor of fallen angels being the ones involved. Because if it knows Jesus, then wouldn't that imply that it was there to know him? There where? As in heaven. Meaning it had to have been in heaven at some point to have met Jesus. 


[00:19:59] Potentially. It's a point, yeah. He knew of 


[00:20:02] Cody: Paul as well. Yeah, he 


[00:20:03] Ben: said it knows of. So it said Jesus I know, as in I personally know him. Paul I know about, or know of. So, he personally knew Jesus and he knew of Paul. 


[00:20:13] Gina: I'm just thinking the story of how Adam was like made by the clay. I'm just thinking, what was the process for angels, like, how did God? 


[00:20:21] Ben: Yeah, that's, that would have been an interesting subject to cover for angels. Like we really don't know. 


[00:20:28] Gina: I know but it's maybe that's how he knows Jesus just from that one moment. 


[00:20:34] Ben: Mm 


[00:20:34] Gina: hmm I'm a dreamer 


[00:20:37] Ben: It's definitely an interesting thing to think about it said that we don't know more maybe one day we will 


[00:20:43] Gina: what do you guys think? 


[00:20:44] About the statement God can deliver people over to Satan, but believers cannot be possessed 


[00:20:50] Ben: So I think it depends on what you mean by believer 


[00:20:54] Gina: Christ followers 


[00:20:55] Ben: If you are someone who is actively in the spirit That is correct. You can't be possessed. 


[00:21:01] Gina: But the Bible doesn't specifically say that. 


[00:21:03] Ben: Agreed. 


[00:21:04] However, when you look at the analogy that Christ gave of the house being put in order and empty, the reason he gave that analogy is because someone needs to be in the home to keep the spirit out. He was saying that simply casting out a demon or a spirit isn't enough. There needs to be something there so that there is no empty home for them to come back to. 


[00:21:25] The implication, then, is that if a possessed person has the spirits driven out, they should become a believer, or else the same thing's gonna happen again. 


[00:21:34] Gina: But worse. 


[00:21:35] Ben: Yes, but worse. 


[00:21:37] Gina: What about Christians who also practice tarot or have crystals or believe in their star signs? 


[00:21:44] Cody: You're not a Christian. I was gonna say, a Christian, what? 


[00:21:47] Gina: We know people like that. Oh. Are they, is it our place to judge their salvation if they're practicing the occult, but also going to church? 


[00:21:56] Ben: You cannot drink from the cup of Christ and the cup of demons. That's something that's scriptural. I don't remember exactly where, what chapter and verse that is, but that is something that Paul says, I believe. 


[00:22:07] Oh yeah, and he, yeah, so he says that in reference to eating food sacrificed to idols. After saying that you can. Provided that you understand what it is you're doing. He also says that realistically you still shouldn't. Because in context, you're eating food that has been sacrificed to a demon, and you can't drink from the cup both of Christ and of demons. 


[00:22:32] So yeah, I can't remember the exact verse, but yeah, that was the gist of it. And that's the idea. If you are actively entertaining things that are demonic, you can't actively be with Christ. Now I think you can be protected by your ignorance to an extent, but once you understand what it is you're doing, you can't keep doing it. 


[00:22:52] Gina: I'm gonna get spicy for a second. 


[00:22:54] Ben: Please. 


[00:22:55] Gina: What's the boundary? At what point do you cut the world out? Movies that have witchcraft or Halloween or Easter eggs and bunnies. At what point do you say this is the line? How can a Christian be reassured that they're not practicing something demonic? I 


[00:23:13] Cody: think that's part of sanctification. 


[00:23:15] Conviction. The Holy Spirit's here to convict us. So I think if you're having a conviction of that and you continue to ignore it, that's not a good thing. If you're not constantly trying to further yourself in knowledge of what is holy and what is righteous, I think that's I'm not a huge fan of them, but I like the quote is you only believe as much as you follow. 


[00:23:40] If you don't believe what the Bible says, or if you say you believe what the Bible says, but you don't follow it, then I don't think you truly believe it because it says you're going to burn in hell if you don't. So, either you believe that knowing that you're going to burn or you don't truly believe it. 


[00:24:02] Gina: So you have to base it on personal conviction? 


[00:24:06] Cody: I think that's where part of the community and what being part of the body of Christ as the church is. Like people 


[00:24:14] Gina: should If the church is celebrating Halloween. 


[00:24:16] Cody: Ask why question. We've gone to churches that celebrate Halloween. 


[00:24:21] Gina: I know. 


[00:24:22] Cody: And we didn't agree with it, but I don't think celebrating Halloween is inherently bad for everybody. 


[00:24:29] Gina: Is not celebrating a holiday that would be considered pagan or condemning the use of crystals, does that make us superior? Do we have the right to hold that over somebody's head? 


[00:24:43] Cody: No, we're not supposed to boast in ourselves. 


[00:24:46] Gina: What if we're calling them to be accountable? 


[00:24:48] Cody: You can only Bring a horse to water. 


[00:24:51] You can't force them to drink You can call somebody up, but at the end of the day, it's going to be their decision. Paul plants, Apollos waters, the growth is of God. So you, you plant that seed and you water it. You've, you've done your part. You can continue to water it. You can continue to, this is why I don't do, this is why I don't find this holy. 


[00:25:14] We're supposed to set our minds to what we believe is holy and only think about those things. So that's a pretty good defensive. Not celebrating Halloween just in that. 


[00:25:26] Gina: I just wanted to make it a little spicy for a minute. 


[00:25:29] Ben: Am I off base here, Ben? I don't think so. So, you and I, a while back, were having a conversation with a friend of ours, and I believe it was him taking the position that Celebrating Easter wasn't good and celebrating Christmas wasn't good because they are based around pagan holidays that were adopted by Christians and turned into the resurrection of Jesus and the celebration of his birth, whereas it was originally the winter solstice and a celebration of fertility. 


[00:25:57] And he was taking the position that because they are adapted, therefore they are evil, they're tainted by the original celebrations that were taken over. I then asked, what is the third day of the week? There's Sunday, Monday, Tuesday. Tyr's day? Do you know who Tyr is? He's a Norse god. And that's his day. 


[00:26:19] Wednesday, Odin's day, Thursday, Thor's day, Friday, Frey's day. All of the names of the days of the week are pulled from Norse gods. Are we suddenly going to rename the days of the week? Are we, if you're saying, thank God it's Friday, thank God it's phrase day, you just gave thanks, you just gave thanks to two different gods there. 


[00:26:39] How dare you? That's why they're all going out of business. I'm with you, Cody. A lot of this comes down to personal conviction. If you feel that it threatens your immortal soul, if it really genuinely bothers you. to worship God on Easter, or to even do specific, just specific practices, the bunny and the eggs and all that doesn't make any sense in terms of, of Easter. 


[00:27:02] Bunnies don't lay eggs? What? They do. They're just not chocolate. They may look like chocolate, but they don't smell like chocolate or taste like chocolate as it turns out. Do you, are you speaking from experience? Not, not, not personal experience. I know someone who may or may not have had one when they were a child, but That poor soul. 


[00:27:20] Poor soul, who is not me. But there are people who genuinely struggle with these things, and in those instances I do my best not to hound them. I used to. But this is something that, again, I reference this verse all the time, but it's because it's relevant. When Paul talks about food sacrificed to idols, food in and of itself is just that. 


[00:27:40] It's food. And when you eat it while giving thanks to the Lord, it is done unto the Lord. What you are doing is done unto the Lord. If you have a brother who sees you and doesn't have the same courage, The same confidence, the same faith as you, and it causes him to stumble, just don't do it. And that's my opinion on most of these things. 


[00:27:59] It does come down a great deal to personal conviction. Your personal conviction may not be right, but if you do it unto the Lord and that is your conviction, then fine. 


[00:28:10] Gina: Do you think that Celebrating these things is akin to inviting spiritual oppression in any way. 


[00:28:19] Ben: I would say again, it can be depending on your personal conviction. 


[00:28:22] If you personally were to feel like going out for a trick or treat was an act of inviting the devil in, And you did it, then like I said before, with these rituals that people do where it's like the blood of lambs and whatnot, that is not, does not have any power in and of itself what it is, it's a symbol. 


[00:28:41] And if you apply that same idea, then doing something which you believe is wrong and would invite the devil in, you do that knowingly and willingly, while still believing that? Then, yes, it suddenly does become that. 


[00:28:55] Gina: Is it that because of guilt more than it is that because of interaction with the spiritual? 


[00:29:03] Ben: It can be a few different things. I think the enemy takes every position that he can. Any and all of them. I think that there are times where we can feel incredibly guilty for things we don't need to be guilty about. And in those instances, it's important for our brothers and sisters to help liberate us. 


[00:29:20] from our own little delusions, and we all have our own little bugaboos, our own little delusions that we need to be freed from. But there are some times where we're living in sin and we don't understand it, and the effects of sin carry with us. You can be unknowingly sinning. Absolutely. And in those instances, it's important for your brothers and sisters to call you out. 


[00:29:39] Now, there are things that aren't sinful, but because you do them and to you, you genuinely feel like they are sin, then they're sin. For instance, let's say there's a book on the table. Let's say I genuinely had a conviction in my heart. I genuinely felt this, and it's wrong. But I felt like if I picked up that book and set it exactly back where it was on the table, that Gina would die. 


[00:30:02] And I just got so mad at Gina. I said, you know what, Gina? And then I picked up the book and then I put it down and I closed my eyes and I hold my hands back because I think, oh my goodness, I just killed Gina. I just killed Gina. And then I open my eyes and you're still here. Would you feel really upset if I did that and I felt that? 


[00:30:18] You probably wouldn't feel good for many reasons, but Yeah! One, you were crazy enough you thought that doing that to a book would do something. 


[00:30:24] Gina: That's like the step on the crack and you break your mother's back. Yes. 


[00:30:28] Ben: If your mom is with you and you genuinely believe that stepping on a crack will break your mother's back, if you start dancing on that crack, Yes! 


[00:30:35] Cody: Normally I did test that theory to see if it actually worked. Does it? No, it does not. But 


[00:30:40] Gina: it electrocutes her. 


[00:30:42] Ben: Cracks are shaped like lightning, so that makes sense. 


[00:30:45] Gina: Yeah. 


[00:30:46] Ben: But yeah, even with that, there are people who hold superstitions and these superstitions aren't real. But because they do them thinking that specific things will happen, that makes it evil. 


[00:30:56] It's not that burning incense is in and of itself evil. It's if you think that you're doing it to accomplish something evil, then it is. 


[00:31:03] Gina: At what point, what's the boundary between conviction and legalism? 


[00:31:08] Cody: In a word, humility. 


[00:31:09] Gina: I like that. 


[00:31:12] Cody: Paul says that all things are fine to do, and I'm widely paraphrasing here, all things are okay to do through Christ because Christ has paid the ultimate sacrifice. 


[00:31:25] Anything we do can be covered by Christ. Does that mean we should continue doing it? 


[00:31:30] Gina: No, I think I ask these questions for a few reasons one because my family a lot of them are still tied up in what I grew up in and i've been accused of trying to force my religion on them and being legalistic and condemning them Even though they haven't chosen jesus and i'm just trying to explain and i'm not i've not always been delicate or articulate or eloquent and i've learned a lot god has taught me a lot but These are the types of things that, as I've gotten away from the occult, they have stood out to me as meaningful. 


[00:32:08] And I have felt convicted about, and so I have stopped participating in and not everybody understands why, and I don't expect everybody else to be like, Oh, you're right. But I feel that way. And I think sometimes I feel that way because of fear, but also conviction. So I wanted to bring up these points because I haven't always been gentle and I haven't had a good delivery, but also I don't think it's universal, so. 


[00:32:35] I 


[00:32:36] Cody: mean, there's certain things like knowing your family that is, you know, it's like the rib versus spine issue. Actively worshiping idols is a no go. I don't care who you are. That is a hard line. But me not being able to get your family to believe Reformed theology, but they're in the free will boat. That, that can go. 


[00:33:02] Gina: Yeah. Well, and that's, I had a dream this week about my aunt and just studying the Bible with her. And God was like, you don't have to convert her because she's a Catholic. Just get her to read the gospel. So it helps to have the guidance from the Lord and to learn new like types of delivery, but, and I'll never give up, but I did want to touch on like the aggression that can come with. 


[00:33:27] Halloween and things that are meant in good fun as opposed to meant to worship something evil. 


[00:33:34] Ben: There's a verse in Ecclesiastes that always used to bother me when I was younger where Solomon says don't try to be too good or too evil. Why destroy yourself? That didn't make any sense to me as a young Christian, because you would think you should always be seeking to do what's right all the time. 


[00:33:59] And it's Ecclesiastes, you're not sure if this is Solomon being his usual pessimistic self, if he's having a little nugget of lucidity in his little Wisdom. Yeah, in his little bout of self pity. But I think that is something that's right. It's not that you actively seek to do evil, you do always seek to do good, but if you're trying to be perfect all the time, you're gonna go insane. 


[00:34:27] If you have a very strict moral code, and you believe that what you believe right now is 100 percent correct, and you have to follow it, because otherwise you're intentionally doing evil, and intentionally doing evil is a no go. You just have to adhere to the rules. 100 percent to your standards at all times that would drive anybody crazy. 


[00:34:46] Gina: You have to remember grace. 


[00:34:49] Cody: It's hard for us to give ourselves grace. At least for me. It's hard for me 


[00:34:54] Gina: There's this journal that I have called a standard of grace. It's for women 


[00:34:58] Ben: You say that like you have to explain it. It's for women. 


[00:35:01] Gina: I wish that there was more like that for men, cause I haven't, maybe it exists, I haven't seen it though. 


[00:35:06] But we are culturally perfectionists, especially with the influencer culture, we want to put our best appearance forward and we care a lot about that, but we need to extend grace to ourselves and to others. And that's very hard, and it does take humility, like you said, it takes grace. Like, you have to decide, is this a hill that is worth dying on, because if it's, if it's a hill that impacts their eternal soul, it is probably worth going there. 


[00:35:35] But if it's just a legalistic kind of pride thing where it's, you're wrong. You know the, I know the history, do you know the history? Let me throw it in your face. 


[00:35:43] Cody: I don't think there's anything wrong with expressing your reason for not believing that's something holy to do. 


[00:35:51] Gina: No, but to throw it in their face and be like, I'm better because, and if you did this, you'd be better too, but I'm still better because I did it first. 


[00:36:02] Cody: It's, yeah, then you just got to think of Paul, like, Paul or any of the disciples. Paul I reference because he talks about it a lot, but the milk of a new believer. how dumbed down and how he probably just wanted to shake the crap out of people because they're just not getting it. Like he was this wealth of knowledge and he knows the right way, but he's constantly talking about how you guys have been on milk forever. 


[00:36:31] Let's move on. Let's start doing more holy things. Like we have the foundation we're going through Hebrews right now. He even 


[00:36:38] Gina: acknowledged the backsliders who went back to milk. 


[00:36:42] Cody: Hebrews mentions that too, is like the, we're basically having to re, relay the foundation. You guys are still on milk and you should have progressed much further than this, but now I'm having to teach you the foundation again. 


[00:36:57] And it's very relatable in these situations. And it's not that you're necessarily right and that they're wrong, but there is reasons that you will view something and know somethings that sin that people won't agree with you on. I think 


[00:37:13] Gina: there's great value in these conversations. We learn a lot just having these conversations together, but having them with other people, it's helped develop our maturity. 


[00:37:24] And if you hold it all in and you're like secretive about whatever you're doing, whether it's convicted you or not, like you're not necessarily going to grow as quickly because you're not. You're not sharing. And I know we got off topic, but I wanted to talk about that too. 


[00:37:42] Cody: How awkward would it have been? 


[00:37:45] Paul says when you're with the Gentiles, you act like the Gentiles. How awkward would it be for. Like his first time doing that, like when he came to that realization, he was the Pharisee of all Pharisees. So Gentiles were not a thing. Associating with them. 


[00:38:02] Gina: Go be them. 


[00:38:02] Cody: Yeah. And then now he's, Oh, when you're with Gentiles, act like the Gentiles. 


[00:38:07] Ben: I think God definitely, if not a sense of humor, has a very strong sense of propriety. That's about the most fitting thing I can think of. That the guy who is the most uptight, adherence to the law, the pharisee among pharisees being taught by the highest pharisee of the time, He has to go out and talk to these unclean, uncircumcised guys who know nothing about anything. 


[00:38:30] They don't even have the foundation of the basic scriptures from the Old Testament. And he has to bring them from the ground up. And yet, he started to grow to have much more respect for that group of people. Because they so hungrily devoured the good news. And with the Jewish people, he constantly had to keep going back to And I think it was because they were just so grounded in the old ways. 


[00:38:54] In the value of circumcision and the value of the law, and that's why so much of Paul's focus when he talks to the Jewish people is specifically about those things. 


[00:39:04] Cody: I 


[00:39:05] Ben: mean, tying this all into, you know, legalism versus personal conviction, it's all about, you know, It's like, when you're looking at someone's bad behavior, is this something that is producing fruit that's poisonous, that's dangerous? 


[00:39:20] If so, then it really needs to be addressed. 


[00:39:22] Gina: What about when in church, you hear people describe things like, I saw a demon come out of this person. Or they say, she has the spirit of Jezebel. When it comes to like demonic stuff in the church, those are the types of things that I'm hearing currently. So how can you speak to that? 


[00:39:42] Is that something that's real? Is it valid? Is it demonic truly? Is it spiritual truly? Or is it just somebody judging another person through legalism? 


[00:39:53] Cody: I hate this spirit of Jezebel talk like it. It's so common and like every, I know I was 


[00:39:58] Gina: recently accused of having it every 


[00:39:59] Cody: single church and like it, it pops up. 


[00:40:02] She's got the spirit of Jezebel. She's just this charlatan and it's so freaking frustrating because one, you're talking about your brother and sister in Christ and 99% of the cases and. Two, like, how is that not fall under gossip? Like, you're, you're taking on that spirit more than the person that you're accusing on in most of these cases. 


[00:40:27] And it's just thrown out there. Read who Jezebel was. She was a terrible person. She 


[00:40:32] Gina: was a murderer. She was promiscuous. That's the piece I was thinking of. She was a thief. She was a liar. 


[00:40:41] Cody: And I bet that Susie is not any of those things. So putting that on her is just wrong. 


[00:40:48] Gina: Is it some, in some way, a form of spiritual warfare or is it truly just the flesh? 


[00:40:54] Cody: As far as somebody having the spirit of Jezebel? Or 


[00:40:56] Gina: being accused of having it? 


[00:40:58] Cody: I think all accusations of somebody having the spirit of Jezebel are just purely gossip and 


[00:41:04] Gina: So it's flesh. 


[00:41:05] Ben: Yeah to be fair. I do think that it is spiritual warfare. Just not in the way the people bringing it up Think it is I think that there is a genuine potential for an evil spiritual influence, let's say. 


[00:41:20] For the people who are actively going around accusing people of having the spirit of Jezebel, those tend to be people who are always doing that kind of thing. Yeah, they're the Oprah Winfrey of the spirit of Jezebel. 


[00:41:32] Gina: The moral busybodies that we've talked about? Yes, 


[00:41:34] Ben: the moral busybodies. And it is almost like there is a negative spiritual influence over that person's life. 


[00:41:40] They feel compelled to constantly be involved in everyone's affairs. And they're the gossips. They're the people who have no real benefit to the church, no real benefit to anybody. And they always feel like they have to be inserted into everything. When these people accuse you of having the spirit of Jezebel, it is not the case. 


[00:41:58] If anyone has a spirit of Jezebel, it's them. 


[00:42:01] Gina: I would say too, Jezebel was a person. She wasn't a demon. She wasn't an angel. She wasn't a spiritual being outside of being made in the image of God, just like all of us. I have to say as a woman and just studying in women's ministry, I don't believe that there's such a thing as a supernatural spirit of Jezebel. 


[00:42:19] I don't believe that she is a ghost haunting us and can inhabit our bodies and minds and and act out at other people. I think it's an excuse. Like it's a, it's like name calling and I just don't see it as a valid spiritual like phrase, I guess, or title. 


[00:42:37] Ben: Yeah, I think people are effectively swapping the word attitude with the word spirit. 


[00:42:42] Saying someone has an attitude like Jezebel is closer to what they're actually saying, but they're trying to apply a veneer of spirituality to it. And I agree with you. It's not that Jezebel herself turned into an evil, wicked spirit that's traveling the churches of the continental U. S. and causing all kinds of havoc. 


[00:43:00] Oh, especially in the South. 


[00:43:02] Gina: Bless her heart. 


[00:43:04] Ben: But, It. That's it. That isn't to say that there aren't negative spiritual influences in the church. Yeah. Or over individual people, but you'll find that in those instances it's not helped at all by gossips in the church pointing to people and saying that they have a negative spiritual influence. 


[00:43:20] Gina: Jezebel. 


[00:43:20] Ben: Exactly. 


[00:43:22] Cody: How come guys don't have a cool, like 


[00:43:24] Gina: you are, you're under biblical spirit of Baras. 


[00:43:27] Ben: Yeah. Something like that. I . I'm with you, Cody. I feel left out. 


[00:43:32] Gina: I'll have that Standard of Grace book cover it when it's written for men. 


[00:43:35] Ben: Oh, awesome. Thank you. 


[00:43:38] Gina: So what about the people who like, they come into church and they're like, I was in small group last night and such cast a demon out of someone. 


[00:43:48] Is that real? Does that really happen? Is that possible? Is it credible? 


[00:43:53] Cody: Possible? Maybe. Probable? 


[00:43:56] Ben: Not likely. So the question is, who is saying this? Once again, you can usually tell with the type of person. If there's the same kind of woman who's been saying spirit of Jezebel comes to you and says, Gina, you know, the other day I saw a demon get cast out. 


[00:44:13] Oh, it was a spirit of Jezebel. Odds are. Probably hyperbole. Probably exaggeration of some kind. But if it's someone like Cody, and we are coming from a Bible study or something, and Cody comes to you at night, and he takes you aside, it's the craziest thing ever. I don't really know what, how to describe it. 


[00:44:31] I don't even know if it really happened, but I think There might have been casting out of a demon or something like people who generally go through these things. There's an element of doubt of fear of uncertainty because you don't even want to believe the thing that you just saw. And it usually comes from people you can trust. 


[00:44:49] Always take it with a grain of salt. Who is telling you this? What is the situation? Nabeel Qureshi himself talked about how there were a couple of demons that were cast out by his prayer group from when he was an early Christian. And I happen to believe Nabeel because Nabeel has no reason to lie about this stuff. 


[00:45:04] Plus I got to see a lot of him from his later years where sadly he had developed stomach cancer and whatnot. But, yeah, he's a man who genuinely believed and loved the Lord and that was reflected in his life by the fruit of the tree I know him. 


[00:45:16] Gina: Growing up, having experienced demonic, dark stuff, somebody that comes to you with a smile on their face, And tells you that they saw a demon come out of someone's ears or whatever uh, they don't know what they're talking about and they probably didn't see what they think they saw and Mental illness especially is present Very strongly right now in our culture and I think it gets confused a lot with demonic But I don't think it always is demonic and praying really hard for somebody and then them feeling healed doesn't equate necessarily to demonic exorcism. 


[00:46:02] And I want to say that from personal experience. If you have seen that. You're not singing it from the rooftops like a bird, you're holding that and analyzing that and praying about it and sharing only as wisely as you can, because you guard your heart and you don't lay your pearls before swine. So, I ask that question because we hear that a lot, being in ministry, and it comes from people of all walks, like very mature people, very immature people, but I think that it's misunderstood or misinterpreted a lot. 


[00:46:37] If it was real, you would be afraid. God is in a spirit of chaos and God is in a spirit of fear. But if a demon came out of a person in front of you, that would bring a certain element of trauma, I think. 


[00:46:49] Ben: Potentially. I think no matter what, it does evoke strong feelings. It's your coming face to face with true evil. 


[00:46:56] It's not natural evil. Natural evil is bad in and of itself. But spiritual evil, it's like a whole different dimension to evil we can't wrap our minds around. It's the idea that there was something that was once good and pure has fully rejected God and turned itself over to the most debased, debaucherous, disgusting inclinations possible. 


[00:47:22] Fully and with complete knowledge turning away from God. Turning away from anything good. What on earth would something like that be like? And to see that be in a person, and to see a person finally be free of it. That's not a fun thing. That's not an interesting thing. That's not a oh, you know what chaps the other day Yeah, I I happen to spy a little curious thing. 


[00:47:47] It's not a curiosity 


[00:47:49] Gina: and it's not something that can be done The stories in scripture where it was done improperly Made it worse. It didn't make it better Mm 


[00:47:59] Ben: hmm And even if you do succeed unless the Holy Spirit comes in to replace what's kicked out you might as well have not bothered 


[00:48:08] Gina: Yeah, you've done more harm than good, I think. 


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