Who or What is the Devil? Part 1

[00:00:00] Cody: Hi, thank you for tuning in to the Logic of God podcast. I'm Cody. 


[00:00:15] Gina: I'm Gina. 


[00:00:16] Cody: And I'm Ben. If you're returning, thank you for coming back. And if you are a new guest, welcome. 


[00:00:35] Ben: At this point, we have addressed angels and we have addressed demons. It seems there is one more figure in here that we should probably address, and that would be the devil himself. Jesus. 


[00:00:47] Gina: Sorry. 


[00:00:47] Ben: No, we talk about Jesus all the time. We talked a lot about Jesus, and God willing, we're going to talk a lot more about Jesus. 


[00:00:53] But after talking about demons or devils, there is the devil or Satan. 


[00:01:01] Gina: He's got many names. I made a list. 


[00:01:04] Ben: Oh, please go through the list. 


[00:01:06] Gina: Now? 


[00:01:07] Ben: Why not? 


[00:01:08] Gina: It's later. 


[00:01:09] Ben: Okay. So, there's a lot of different theories and a lot of different approaches to talking about the devil. Some people say that he is one, that's just one figure. 


[00:01:20] Satan, the devil, Lucifer, all of those are one person. There are other people who make arguments that there are different entities that split up to make what is the modern interpretation of the devil and they should be treated as separate. And I've heard that from a few different individuals. So, Let's try to address this as best as we can, from a biblical perspective, who is Satan? 


[00:01:40] Gina: Cody made the first point, is he one entity or many? 


[00:01:44] Cody: Did I make the first point? 


[00:01:45] Gina: Get out. Get 


[00:01:47] Cody: out. You're banished. So, is he one entity or many? It's along the lines of, you have the depiction of, what is it, the prince of Persia, or It seems like they're talking about Satan, but they're also talking about Prince Tire. 


[00:02:04] Oh, you mean the, the prince of tire? Yeah. Tire, yeah. And then you have the job account and, and Job one six where he's the, the Hebrew there is the Satan. Which can be a position or title, not necessarily a proper noun, and that is a potential. And then you have just many names for him, where he's connected to different deities from different religions, like where the name Lucifer comes from, I think is Hillel Ben Shahir, which is actually a Canaan Mesopotamia. 


[00:02:40] God that Isaiah is connecting to. 


[00:02:43] Gina: I've also heard Beelzebub Referred to as the devil. 


[00:02:49] Ben: It's a bit difficult to tell just automatically if this is referring to one person or multiple people Generally the explanation that I've been given is just that it is many names just like there are many names for God There are many names for the devil and all of them essentially describing different things that he does So the first point you actually have here Cody is from Job chapter 1 verse 6. 


[00:03:15] Cody: Yeah, Job 1. 6, Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them. So in the text there, you have sons of God. So we've talked about that in the previous episodes, that's going to be connecting to the angels. Satan is also presented in this text and most English translations have capital S, Satan in there, but the original Hebrew is Hasatan, which can also just be a title. 


[00:03:47] And throughout the Hebrew Bible, the Old Testament, Satan is actually used in different positions, not referring to Satan himself, not connected to that serpent in Genesis there. So there's two different interpretations of Job there that are popular. 


[00:04:06] Ben: So what are those interpretations? 


[00:04:07] Cody: So the traditional interpretation is that that is speaking of Satan proper noun, the devil, the serpent in the garden is connecting there. 


[00:04:18] And then there's the Hasatan, which actually would be a title. So somebody who is the accuser, but on God's payroll. 


[00:04:27] Ben: So, basically, a good angel, but his job is basically just to try to poke holes in God's logic? 


[00:04:33] Cody: To test people, to find people who need tested or, in Job's instance there, and there's some connections to in the sacrifice of Isaac, that story of the same kind of play here in Job, where you have this, if they, If they truly loved you, they would do this. 


[00:04:52] And in this Job story, it's, he's had a great life thus far, of course he's gonna worship you. But if you did, let me do these things, then I'm sure he would turn from you. 


[00:05:02] Gina: Do you think the ambiguity of not knowing really when Job was written or what era he lived in creates some confusion about who this Satan character could be? 


[00:05:13] Cody: Definitely not having a date for the text is problematic for certain 


[00:05:18] Ben: interpretations. No matter what, it's not as if Job takes place before the fall. And it's, I believe it's generally asserted that it takes place after the time of Noah. And one of the reasons given is because Job lives into, I think his 400s. 


[00:05:35] And when you follow the lineage that's presented through the genealogies in Genesis, there's a point where there's a precipitous drop off in the number of years that people live. Prior to the flood, it lists people as living close to a thousand years. And then after Noah's flood, there's a period where there's fairly high lifespans, but they start to drop very quickly, where it's like still in the upper 800s, lower 900s, then it's 800s, then it's 600s, then it's 500s, 400s, and then by the time of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, like, you're basically consigned to living less than 200 years, and then by the time of Moses, 120, and I think It's posited that there's actually a very good reason why it's 120 because in Genesis, God says, I will number their years 120 and that seems to be an effect that starts to apply after the flood where our years are slowly reduced until Moses and his introduction of the law where Moses obeying God's law lives only to the year 120 and it's made abundantly clear in scripture that he could have lived longer That, you know, his strength had not left him, that he was still in good health. 


[00:06:45] He just died. And it implies that the reason is because that is the point at which God's law, what he's ruled, is implemented. He only lives 120 years because that's what God said. All that is to say, there's a reason that people typically date Job to after the flood and pretty recently after the flood, but most likely after the flood. 


[00:07:06] Now, all that being said, as far as that pertains to the devil. And whether or not this is Satan, the common interpretation, the devil, where he's this evil singular entity or he's just a good angel who, it's his job, it's just what he has to do. The tough thing for me about taking the interpretation where this is just an angel and this is his job. 


[00:07:29] Is there a human on earth who knows the Lord and loves him and chooses to make someone's life hell? There are people God uses, but usually there are people who are evil. And God chooses to use them, because if He doesn't, then it's just evil for the sake of evil. There is no greater purpose behind it. I think there are people who have issues with God using evil. 


[00:07:50] If He doesn't, you're presented with two different issues here. Either one, He uses evil and ultimately uses it for good. All things work together for good for those who love God. Therefore, evil has to work for good. Or, God has nothing to do with evil, in which case He has no control over it, and all the consequences of evil are beyond Him. 


[00:08:08] He has to be in control of evil in some way, and we're presented with that issue here. Either this is an angel, and God is literally commanding this angel to cause natural and human evil on Job and his family, or this is the devil, and the devil really wants to do horrible, evil, disgusting things. And the reason I take that interpretation more favorably, and this is the biggest thing for me, is that the argument that, God and the devil or Satan here have is in regards to the nature of why God would allow evil to happen to someone who is good in the first place. 


[00:08:46] The devil essentially makes the argument, if you only allow good things to happen to good people, then it's possible that people who are evil will only do good things, just so that good things happen to them. But if a truly good person has horrible things happen to them, and they still hold fast to their righteousness, that is a truly good person. 


[00:09:05] And God agrees with that argument, and I think that it's actually a pretty firm argument. That is why God allows bad things to happen to good people. But I could be off base here, I don't know, what do you guys think? 


[00:09:17] Gina: I think you should share, just I don't have a I don't have as much of a well rounded exposure or understanding of Satan as far as the types of study that I've seen Cody do. 


[00:09:30] Honestly, up until about two years ago, I was like afraid of even talking about Satan. So I've had a hard time putting a lot of work into understanding if he's one single entity or many. And I'm not sure that fundamentally to me it matters. I think for Cody it matters because he wants order and logic. 


[00:09:52] But this is one of those things where I just have faith. So I don't have a real strong opinion. I think it's really interesting, but it's not something that I would climb up on the hill and die for. 


[00:10:04] Cody: Yeah. And that's where I'm at too. I can take either way, but this is another one of those divine counsel settings because you have the angels. 


[00:10:13] coming before God, the sons of God coming before God as well as Satan. And you have this council that we've seen with the lying spirit and the prophets of Ahab. And then again, and I'll bring it up later on the podcast, the evil spirit that torments Saul, and you have that. And so you can see where God uses. 


[00:10:35] Angels or entities to not always do what we could, would consider loving. And, you know, we're constantly told throughout scripture that God's going to test us. And that with, um, Job here, but also specifically with Abraham's story and Isaac, a, a just completely ridiculous test in that as well. So that's the defense that they use for this interpretation. 


[00:11:00] Again, I'm not married to either. Or, but I can see how it can go both ways and not clash with my specific theology. 


[00:11:11] Ben: Yeah, I guess for me, it's just, it's tough to reconcile the concept of God creating an angel to do bad things to good people. And that's his sole purpose. It is much easier for me to understand allowing bad things to happen to someone and using that for good. 


[00:11:28] Cody: But if God's going to test you, is he just using bad things? For good in that instance, or is he actually putting a challenge in front of you that will test your faith? 


[00:11:39] Ben: The question is what exactly do we mean when we say evil and in order to address that we need to look at how things Were at the very beginning. 


[00:11:47] There was no death. There was no disease There was no suffering all of those things were considered by God to be bad Thus and God saw that it was good and God saw that it was good and there was evening and there was morning the first Day second day third day there was no suffering or evil You At the very beginning, so at this point, the reason that God would use suffering and pain and death and evil is because suffering, pain, death and evil are already in the world and in order for us to confront it and to even more importantly to confront the evil that exists within us. 


[00:12:22] God uses evil and puts it in front of us in a way that we can't possibly ignore. And when we confront evil, we have to lean more and more on the good. We have to lean more on Him. That's why it's important for us to face evil. Because the more evil we see, the more we have to rely on good. The more darkness we're surrounded with, the more we need the light. 


[00:12:42] So, that is the justification for why God uses it. But to create an angel from the very beginning to do evil, and that is evil. Because if it wasn't there at the beginning, then it wasn't good. Then, God literally created something to be evil. And there's people who make the argument that God made the devil, thus he made evil. 


[00:13:01] No. All angels from the beginning were good. But they had free will just like we do. So yeah, it's tough for me to, again, it's, I'm with you guys more or less. And that could be the truth. And maybe there's something about this that I'm not seeing. It's just tough for me to reconcile that position. 


[00:13:19] Cody: Yeah, it is. 


[00:13:20] And my question I would ask you as well is with angels having free will, how much leniency and forgiveness did they have when they screwed up? I would imagine they don't have very much. Okay, but there is a margin there where they have it. Is there? I would think so. If they have free will, are they perfect? 


[00:13:42] Is Michael perfect in everything that he does? 


[00:13:44] Ben: The trouble with addressing this is that, again, this is conjecture. However, we're told in the Bible that The more responsibility you have, the more God expects of you, the more, like when Paul talks about how when he knew the law, he suddenly was capable of sinning in much greater respects. 


[00:14:03] And the more understanding you have, the worse even the most nominal of sin is. There's a reason that we don't treat the sins of children the same as the sins of adults. Once you know better, even the most basic of sin, like running around and shouting as an adult, It's not something that you would ever expect someone to do when you think very poorly of an adult. 


[00:14:23] A child is different. In the case of angels, they are literally face to face with God. And I think they can make mistakes, but I don't believe that they can intentionally say no to God and then have that be okay. We can because we have a degree of ambiguity. We don't know for certain if God is really there. 


[00:14:42] We assume that he is, and we see evidence of that. And God proves himself to us time and time again, but we have very short memories and we often can oversimplify or overcomplicate or justify things to ourselves. We see a miracle and we think, I could have just pictured that in my head. I could have imagined it. 


[00:15:00] It could have not happened at all. So as long as we're in the flesh, we have a degree of deniability. And I think that we've talked about that before, this divine hiddenness of God that serves a purpose. Angels don't have that. So I would say even the most basic thing, God saying, bring me a cup of water. 


[00:15:15] If an angel said no, they are willingly and fully denying God. So I don't think they do have wiggle room in that respect. 


[00:15:23] Cody: But so if God tells you that. You can test somebody, but leaves it ambiguous, and you take it too far. Are you rejecting God's will? 


[00:15:35] Ben: In this instance, the angel was literally doing evil. 


[00:15:38] He was causing raiders to murder someone's family. That's not a good thing. No. Murder is inherently evil. 


[00:15:44] Gina: But if God can harden Pharaoh's heart in the story of the Exodus, Like, having a hard heart against God would be considered evil, and yet God caused that to happen. 


[00:15:53] Ben: There are two separate questions there. 


[00:15:55] One, was Pharaoh a good guy to begin with? 


[00:15:58] Gina: He was created by God. 


[00:16:00] Ben: At some point when he was a baby, he was good. The question is, did God, was he a righteous person like the level of Abraham? And then suddenly God forced his heart to be hardened, and then he was a terrible person. 


[00:16:09] Gina: What about Judas? 


[00:16:11] Ben: Let's address one thing at a time here. 


[00:16:13] So first, addressing Pharaoh. In Jewish tradition, and I happen to agree with this tradition, the idea is that when the Bible says that God hardened Pharaoh's heart, what it's saying is that his heart was hardened to the supernatural. Normally, if you were to see incredible supernatural things happening all around you, you'd be terrified. 


[00:16:31] What God did was he hardened Pharaoh's heart and just let him act the way he normally would have if he was presented with just normal facts and evidence. And so, he acted with the evil that was in his heart. So, it wasn't that God forced him to do anything. If anything, he was enabling him to act in the way that he truly would think. 


[00:16:50] Now, as far as Judas is concerned, Again, we talked about this before. There is the question of whether or not God specifically forced Judas to do anything. I don't believe that he did. I believe that there was any number of ways that all could have played out. It's just the reason that the result that happened was prophesied to happen was because it happened. 


[00:17:11] I don't believe that God forced it to happen because it was prophesied. I believe it was prophesied because it happened. Which is a weird way of talking like that goes into God's perception of time and the nature of prophecy and everything We I think that's a bit too intellectual here The point is that there's no place in the New Testament where it specifically says that God forces Judas to betray Jesus 


[00:17:34] Gina: But Judas walked with Jesus. 


[00:17:36] Ben: Mm hmm 


[00:17:36] Gina: like he was in his presence often and still betrayed him and still loved money and His purpose was what it was. So I don't know the Bible also have diverging 


[00:17:50] Ben: the trouble with that is that the Bible also says very clearly that it would have been better for him to have never been born or For him to have yet been had a millstone tied around his neck and be thrown into the sea than have ever been born Like it makes it very clear that his existence was not good It was very bad what he did and that Satan literally entered into him To say that God forced that to happen means that God literally forces people to commit evil. 


[00:18:16] Can God force people to commit evil? 


[00:18:19] Gina: No, he's perfect. 


[00:18:20] Ben: So then we're at an impasse here. Either this happened because God allows it and God just knew that Judas was going to do that because he exists in all time and all places and just incorporated it into his plan, which is what I believe. Or God literally forced him to do it, which I think is in part the Calvinist position. 


[00:18:39] Gina: If you look at the stories, like in, especially the Old Testament, there's a lot of meaning for us, for future people. And a lot of times you'll see there's one person who sacrifices for the good of all and whether they're committing good or evil, the message comes across to us as a lesson of how to respond when horrible things happen to us or how to respond to other things. 


[00:19:07] And So I, I do see that there could be a divine purpose in putting these examples in scripture of questioning if God could or would create evil or force evil, but I don't know. 


[00:19:24] Ben: There's a point where Paul is talking and he brings up a hypothetical conversation where people are saying, let's do bad so that good would result. 


[00:19:32] Gina: Yeah, no. 


[00:19:33] Ben: And their condemnation would be justified. If it's wrong for us to do it, why would it be right for God? And that's not an argument that I think holds weight in every situation. There are plenty of things that God allows or God does that he's justified in doing because he sees the full picture. 


[00:19:49] But if, by nature, it's wrong to specifically do bad, so that good would result. God does not lie. God does not tempt. God does not do evil. But if he would specifically create things and force them to do evil, I don't see a difference. 


[00:20:04] Gina: But he doesn't There's no iron clad promise in a gold box when you get baptized. 


[00:20:10] That's nothing bad is ever going to happen to you. And while we do pray, God, please release me from this or save me or whatever. Sometimes I would say even a lot of times God doesn't. Move in the way that we want or expect because life isn't perfect and this ain't heaven I don't think that god is causing it I think it's just he's developing us and we have all kinds of scripture about trials and you know it's just it's hard for me to Put this whole idea into a box and close it and say it's not possible because we do get tested and we do get built and Having these bad things that happen like joe Like, developed Job and proved his faith and faithfulness, which is an example to me, so. 


[00:20:52] Cody: It's a difficult question with, and this is where the common free will side of the spectrum falls short for me, and I lean more towards the Calvinist side, is with God's sovereignty. In Job's instance, he could have used this. What we're calling evil right now, knowing that his family would have been tormented by something later on down the road, is a quick death better for them in this instance, and evil is still being used for good. 


[00:21:26] That's something we don't know, and that's where God leaves Job at the end of that book is, where were you when I was laying the foundations of the world? Do you feed the donkeys or whatever? I can't remember the exact verbiage, but ultimately, and Paul makes reference to it as well, is we don't get the big picture like God does. 


[00:21:47] Ben: Sure. I think this actually lends well into a separate question that also partly involves the discussion of angels and demons and their purpose. When you look at, not just taking Job into account, but looking at nature generally, there are a lot of plants and animals. that exists that seem absolutely cruel. 


[00:22:05] There's a specific type of wasp that will lay eggs in a worm while it's still alive. And like the larvae inside will devour the thing while it's still alive and it's in horrendous pain. And we 


[00:22:16] Gina: literally just had this happen in our garden to a monarch butterfly. 


[00:22:20] Ben: It's not a worm, a caterpillar. But yeah. 


[00:22:23] Can you picture God specifically creating something that works that way? 


[00:22:29] Gina: We talk about this a lot. I'll be like, I wonder if it was like this in Eden. 


[00:22:33] Ben: So yeah, there's, the reason I bring it up is because there was a recent video I saw from Dr. Gavin Ortland where he talked about how similar to the idea behind the divine counsel, there was also the thought that. 


[00:22:46] After the fall of man, there was also angels doing evil. And there's the general thought that I was taught, that once humanity did evil, that the world was cursed. But then there's an additional thought, and this is something that was actually taught by a lot of people. C. S. Lewis took this position, Tolkien took this position, where angelic evil actually corrupted creation significantly. 


[00:23:07] That they had a specific hand in the corruption Of animals and plants to the point where when we see a lot of the horrendous examples that just seem to come out of nowhere in nature that don't seem to serve any purpose, that's actually essentially a spitting in the eye of God, so to speak, 


[00:23:24] Gina: like a parasite 


[00:23:25] Ben: and would also explain why it is that the flood was necessary because it wasn't just humans being mean to one another. 


[00:23:31] And so God punishes everybody. It's that it's humans being horrible to one another and angels. Essentially becoming corrupt and running amok over the surface of the earth and corrupting his creations to the point where he needs to save only a handful of it, that is the least amount of corrupt, and then destroy everything and start anew. 


[00:23:51] That makes a lot of sense to me. But, if that is the case, Then when we're looking at God using evil, like you, you can allow evil for the sake of a greater good, which is things choosing to love you and choosing to obey you, but then God specifically creating things to be evil. And then that evil running amok on his planet because he forced it to be evil, and then he destroys the things that he forced to be evil, and then forces things to continue to be evil after he wiped the slate clean. 


[00:24:20] It doesn't gel for me very well. 


[00:24:23] Gina: Definitely. 


[00:24:24] Cody: It's interesting, and I would love to know the sources for Lewis and Tolkien on that, because that's basically what the Book of Enoch is about. They probably did. 


[00:24:35] Ben: I used the book of Enoch. I actually have a couple of quotes from them here, if you want. No, you 


[00:24:39] Gina: didn't put them on the outline. 


[00:24:40] How dare you? So this 


[00:24:41] Ben: is, yeah, this is from C. S. Lewis's Miracles. Nature's positive depravity calls for a very different explanation. According to the Christians, this is all due to sin. And send both of men and of powerful non human beings, supernatural but created. The unpopularity of this doctrine arises from the widespread naturalism of our age, and will disappear as this error is corrected. 


[00:25:07] Beings in a different nature and higher nature, which is partially interlocked with ours, have, like men, fallen and have tampered with things inside our frontier. 


[00:25:18] Gina: It's interesting because in the story of Noah, God makes a covenant with the animals as well as the people. 


[00:25:26] Ben: And God frequently uses animals as part of human covenant as well. 


[00:25:30] Gina: We're off topic a little bit. A little bit, but 


[00:25:32] Ben: this ties into the nature of who the devil is and what his purpose is. And sorry, go ahead. 


[00:25:37] Cody: No, this will lend well to the, I want to cover human nature in a little bit and I'll But it's also interesting that they bring that up because a lot of the, Divine council worldview and then the, like, the book of Enoch goes into the sin of the watchers, watchers being the fallen angels or angels, then they're fallen and there's that, there's that. 


[00:26:01] But the sin and depravity that the world got to pre flood was just so messed up because of the angels, fallen angels influence on the world. It just kept on growing and growing. We would have never gotten to that level of depravity anywhere we may have later on down the road, but as fast as we did without the influence of the fallen angels. 


[00:26:30] Ben: Now, I think it is once again important to emphasize this is not explicitly outlined in scripture. You can at best say that it's hinted at and Cody, you've actually read the Book of Enoch. I haven't. This is more just stuff that I've. I've heard from other people like Lewis and Tolkien and also Dr. Ortlin, Dr. 


[00:26:49] Ortlin's video, which I would highly recommend everybody look at. But, in the end, it's not something that we could say with any level of certainty. It's just something that makes sense and that is a part of Jewish tradition that goes back for thousands of years. But still is tradition and might be wrong. 


[00:27:07] Gina: And we don't all have the same agreement on all of it, which I like, because perspective is everything. If I was set in my way or you were set in your way and we weren't willing to discuss, we would be extremely unlovable. 


[00:27:21] Ben: And while I, you know, while earlier Gina and I were disagreeing a bit, the truth is that you could entirely be right on this. 


[00:27:28] And it's not even that we're that far apart on anything. They're just individual things I think both of us look at and have questions on and it's tough to reconcile a lot of these harder Deeper spiritual issues. 


[00:27:39] Gina: Yeah, I think I don't know. I have a very Special relationship with god and I don't say that because i'm conceited and it's not that i'm god's favorite or anything It's just i've done really dumb stuff And I've been assured by God that even in my evil behaviors, sinful behaviors, like, I'm still loved by Him, and my nature is so known by Him that even when I mess up, He still sees me as His precious daughter, and I don't have to have it right. 


[00:28:10] The pressure's off. Because, I'm learning, and I'm growing, and I'm not stopping, and I'm still hungry to know more about him. I'm still going to screw up. I'm still going to get it wrong. The next section is just all scriptures that reference the devil, and I left that as reference for the whole episode in case there was a story that you wanted to bring up that you couldn't remember. 


[00:28:30] So we can skip that unless something stands out to you. 


[00:28:34] Ben: Might be a good idea to just start with reading some of these scriptures just so that way because we've just come from a point where we were just talking about Job and saying that there's a lot up in the air. So maybe we should actually go into reading some of the actual scriptures that are cited about him. 


[00:28:49] Gina: Yeah. Anyone stand out in particular? 


[00:28:52] Cody: Let's start with Genesis for sure. 


[00:28:55] Gina: Now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, did God actually say you shall not eat from any tree in the garden? So he's a serpent. 


[00:29:09] Ben: Yeah. And we've talked about this before. 


[00:29:11] Like it's possible that's seraphim. 


[00:29:13] Gina: Or poetry. 


[00:29:15] Ben: Any number of things. Yeah. A lot of that is up in the air. Are there, is there any 


[00:29:19] Gina: poetic and literal at the same time? 


[00:29:22] Ben: Correct. 


[00:29:23] Gina: Talks about him being a fallen star in Isaiah. 


[00:29:27] Ben: There's also the bit in Ezekiel, which we talked about before. It's still questionable whether or not this is just the Prince of Tyre, or if there's a parallel being drawn between the Prince of Tyre and the devil. 


[00:29:37] So that's Ezekiel. 28 verse 15, you are blameless in your ways from the day that you were created till unrighteousness was found in you. 


[00:29:46] Gina: Kind of fits very well into your opinion on God not creating him for evil or to be evil or. Having evil in him 


[00:29:54] Ben: though that does require that it's both referring to the king of Tyre and the double So I don't want to you know die on that hill so to speak. 


[00:30:01] I just think that it fits 


[00:30:03] Gina: Yeah, 


[00:30:03] Ben: then there's also isaiah chapter 14 verse 12 How you are fallen from heaven, O day star, sun of dawn. How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low. That does lead to an interesting question. How did he lead the nations low? How can all of that be put on one person? 


[00:30:22] Cody: And this is like why the Divine Council is interesting, to say the least. 


[00:30:28] Ben: Absolutely. And I know we keep referring to the Divine Council, but it really is an interesting idea. Yeah. 


[00:30:35] Cody: It opens a lot of different scripture up to, okay, how do you interpret this without that viewpoint? How did he make the nations low? 


[00:30:45] All of the nations low, did he? 


[00:30:47] Gina: Is he omnipresent? Is he omnipotent? 


[00:30:50] Cody: And you could argue, oh, he just had influence on the whole world. He was going to and fro. 


[00:30:55] Gina: They had Twitter back then, so it was easy. 


[00:30:57] Cody: It's X now. 


[00:31:00] Ben: I guess this is actually a good point to launch into the next point in the outline. What exactly was his role? 


[00:31:06] Good 


[00:31:06] Gina: question. Was created as a being created by God with a mind, will, and emotion. And this means that because he was created by God, he is not equal to God. 


[00:31:17] Ben: But Gina, there's this common understanding that he's like the king of hell. Like, he's running around with goat legs and a pitchfork and he's all red. 


[00:31:25] And like, he's got these flames all around him. Is any of that true? 


[00:31:29] Gina: No, hell is his punishment just as much as it is anybody else that denounces Christ. He's gonna die there. 


[00:31:36] Ben: But do you have any evidence of that? Because I saw so many TV shows, and it's all very obvious to me that he's definitely the dude with the pitchfork who rules hell. 


[00:31:44] Gina: Yeah, no. Let's see. So, in Matthew 25, 41, it says, Then he will say to those on his left, Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. So, I would say that's pretty good evidence that God is preparing the fire for Satan who introduced all of us to evil. And it's for him, but also for those who don't love Jesus, 


[00:32:13] Ben: for those who follow him and for the humans who would reject Jesus as well. 


[00:32:17] Gina: Yeah, that bears the question though, Cody, does Job 1. 6 mean Satan still has access to God in heaven? 


[00:32:24] Cody: I mean, if you take the literal interpretation and traditional interpretation of that, he was, presented before God. So I would say yes, he's there. So 


[00:32:37] Ben: I would say this is probably one of the strongest arguments against it being the actual devil, because it is tough to make the argument that evil can be in the presence of God. 


[00:32:48] Now there are ways around that. Technically, God is literally everywhere on earth and evil people exist on earth, but there seem to be different levels of God's presence. There are times in all of our lives as Christians where we feel really close to the Lord, and His presence is really powerful. And then there are times where we feel very distant, and He's still there, it's just He doesn't feel as close. 


[00:33:10] So, there are ways you can get around that, but seemingly, This is a section of Job talking about some events in heaven. Can the devil go up into heaven? The interesting thing is that a lot of this seems to be taking place what Cody said before in a courtroom setting and in a courtroom setting you do need opposition. 


[00:33:30] So I would say that this is something that is allowed as an exception. Because by the very nature of the courtroom, you need an adversary. You need someone to stand on the opposite side and present the counter case. So, in order for God to be truly just, He has to have someone who is not Him to make a case for the opposite. 


[00:33:51] Gina: There's also instances in Scripture where God has instructed Satan and he has obeyed. Which I think lends more credibility to the fact that it's, Multiple entities than just one because I don't believe that Satan himself would obey God 


[00:34:08] Ben: I think he has to 


[00:34:09] Gina: really 


[00:34:09] Ben: for instance if the devil were to possess someone and You were to command him in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ to leave would he have to leave? 


[00:34:17] Gina: Yeah, 


[00:34:19] Ben: so then he has to obey, 


[00:34:20] Gina: but then they can come back. 


[00:34:21] Ben: Yes, but that's the thing You don't say come back and literally never return ever again Maybe we should tell people maybe we should should tell demons that more often but the point is that this isn't It's something where even in that moment. He has to obey He has to leave now whether or not he can come back Eventually the whole point of that section in the Bible is about him coming back and then there is nothing there if Christ takes his place He can't return. 


[00:34:46] As long as the house is empty, he can. There are rules to it. The point is that there are rules. No matter what, there are rules the devil has to follow. If he is truly rebellious and is therefore constrained by nothing, why are there rules he has to follow? 


[00:34:59] Gina: I always picture him as this really ticked off dude on a leash. 


[00:35:04] It's like when you see a toddler on a leash and their mom's like holding it and they're walking and then they come to a total stop but the kid is still walking and then is jerked backward. That's how I imagine him. 


[00:35:15] Ben: Now you still could be right Gina, like it's possible that there are different entities that do different things and we all just have bumped them all in and naming them the devil. 


[00:35:23] And the thing is, is in the book of Revelation, there's a bunch of different. Things like there's a beast and there's a dragon and then there are other beasts and they surrender their authority to the dragon and So it's possible that there have been a few different things that we considered to be the devil But there are actually different things and they surrender their authority to the actual big bad devil It's like the capital D devil. 


[00:35:45] Gina: We're not given a hierarchy. 


[00:35:47] Ben: Not really. 


[00:35:47] Cody: No, and through scripture you still have the, you have the Christ motif, the Messiah motif. I think you have that as well on the, the Satan or devil side because Jesus calls Peter Satan. Get behind me Satan. And, um, you know, a lot of people are called, gosh, what is, I can't think right now. 


[00:36:09] But basically they're called sons of the devil. Yeah. Does that mean that they're literal sons of the devil? Does that mean that Peter was literally Satan there? No, but he's getting behind Satan's plan. And the Bible project actually has a really good series called the chaos dragon and stuff. And like you, you can, and then Tim Mackey goes into where you can be part of the chaos. 


[00:36:34] which is anti God, or you can be within God's will. That doesn't mean you're that all the time, but you can be chaos if that's what you choose, and that's the path you choose. You can be sons of the devil if that's what you choose. You can be Satan and following his plan, like Peter was, basically telling Jesus he can't do what he's going to do, and basically be Satan. 


[00:36:59] That's my two cents on that. Taylor 


[00:37:01] Gina: Good one. 


[00:37:02] Cody: You do it. 


[00:37:03] Gina: What's next? Do you believe that he rules over the demonic? Do you think they have to have organized leadership? 


[00:37:10] Ben: Yeah, the question is, what does that even mean? And again, if we don't go with the divine counsel thought, and it's not that we have to, it's just, it seems to be the thing that makes the most sense. 


[00:37:21] But if we don't go with that, then what does it mean that he rules over demons? 


[00:37:25] Cody: It's hard because you get a lot of scripture that backs that up too, that there is a hierarchy to the, the fall, so to speak, or they at least elected him as ruler because it's the devil and all his angels. And the, there's multiple references to him being the king or the prince, the specific area. 


[00:37:45] So you have this hierarchy. That he is placed in throughout scripture So it does seem like there is some sort of hierarchy and he is the worst of the worst 


[00:37:57] Ben: Again, I I do really apologize because I I know that we i'm talking about the divine council idea all the time But functionally it seems like it's the best solution. 


[00:38:08] It's that there were a bunch of logical. It is logical Whether or not it's correct It seems to me the most logical sense that there were a bunch of angels who were put in charge all over the earth And they, many of them became corrupt and essentially started working as gods and being worshipped as gods and demanding horrendous human sacrifice. 


[00:38:29] And then the devil basically came in and he conquered all those lands. He basically forced into subjugation these angels under him. Because he's the strongest. And you see this kind of hierarchy in human evil as well. Even amongst the worst. Most crooked organizations and nations on Earth. There's almost always a, uh, some kind of social structure underneath which the worst person reigns. 


[00:38:54] So it does make sense to me, even with the most chaotic and evil creatures you can imagine, there would be a hierarchy. It's just, it's not one that we have access to. We don't really know much about it, if anything. 


[00:39:05] Cody: No, and we keep going back to it, because one of the best explanations of just how you form your beliefs is, I've heard you have all these different colored rocks on the ground to make a mosaic, but you use scripture as the filter to only let the right size rocks through. 


[00:39:28] Gina: That would be Philippians 4, 8. 


[00:39:31] Cody: And then it just falls into place and putting this divine counsel worldview lets a lot of things pass through that just make a lot of sense and make a bigger picture of that mosaic. 


[00:39:46] Gina: While still keeping God in control and good. 


[00:39:49] Cody: While still filtering it through the Bible, like backing it up with the Bible. 


[00:39:54] Ben: And ultimately, it's something that lets God be God, and lets the Bible be the Bible, and lets the evil in it be the evil in it, and the good be the good. It's just some additional details that help sort some things out. 


[00:40:07] Gina: Welcome to the box we've shoved our religion into. We're such people. That's the thing, 


[00:40:12] Ben: like, no matter what, there is a box. 


[00:40:15] The question is, whose box are you putting everything into? If you say that the Bible is truly the inspired word of God, then automatically you've created a box. This is inspiration. Is anything else inspiration? It's outside the box. 


[00:40:29] Gina: But let's think outside the box. We complicate it so much as people. 


[00:40:34] Ben: Because there always has to be a better explanation or something smart or something that makes more sense to us. 


[00:40:42] Cody: There's always a bigger box too. I don't care how many people fight me on this. The Bible is not the answer to every freaking thing in the world. 


[00:40:51] Gina: We'll fight. 


[00:40:52] Cody: It is not. And I think it's very foolish to claim that. 


[00:40:58] Gina: Shots fired at your wife. 


[00:41:00] Cody: I know you don't believe that. 


[00:41:02] Gina: I do. There's a lot of things that I could draw the parallel and connect it in my own heart. I don't know that it would always work for other people for me to explain it the way I see it. But for me it works. You're not like me. 


[00:41:16] Cody: In certain respects. 


[00:41:17] Yes. Maybe all moral issues. Sure. You can get what toilet paper should we buy? 


[00:41:24] Gina: John the Baptist. 


[00:41:26] Ben: The answer is none. I think. The Bible is ultimately the foundation. Absolutely. That's what the Bible calls Christ, what it calls even itself. Scripture and Christ is the firm foundation. The foundation is not the whole building. 


[00:41:42] And so you're right, Cody, like in the context of this analogy, yeah, you like, just because you have that foundation, you need to build something on it. And so if you were to just sit cross legged in your house and read the Bible every day, you would not get anywhere in life. At some point, you need to start applying the Bible. 


[00:41:59] And applying the wisdom you've learned in it, and in doing so, you will learn things that is not specifically in the Bible, but the foundation of that knowledge is found in it. 


[00:42:09] Cody: And so we talked about it on our, the, the inspiration episode, did God, did God give us the word and the whole meaning of Canon is measuring rod. 


[00:42:21] What are we supposed to be measuring if it's not stuff outside the Bible? Absolutely. So we're told to test everything. What are we supposed to test? Everything against the Bible to see if it's good and it's pure and it doesn't contradict the Bible in any way. Then you have a little bit more leniency there. 


[00:42:41] If you've put it to the test and it passes, then you can, Take that and run with it. I think 


[00:42:47] Gina: that's where the Holy Spirit comes into because you get like personal conviction and you hear from God And if he's hey, you don't do that and you feel convicted and then you do it Anyway, then you're sinning So you have your measuring rod and thanks to Jesus and his sacrifice and the fact that we get the Holy Spirit now Like we do have an additional layer For accountability 


[00:43:09] Cody: and inside of that too, you have community as well. 


[00:43:12] I think it's important to also run things past different people as well. Exactly. And that's scriptural. That's part of kind of the testing the spirits process that scripture outlines is okay. Sanity check on this bin and my way out of left field here. 


[00:43:31] It's, so that's the point of having community and that's why we're called to be a part of the bigger body of the church. Way off topic now 


[00:43:41] Ben: though. Not really. I think there's a way we can tie this in. Give me a second. I think I can tie this all in. 


[00:43:45] Gina: Satan tries to nullify the Word of God. So if we're using the Word of God as our measuring rod and Satan's coming against that and that's in scripture. 


[00:43:55] In multiple places, like, we know that he doesn't want us to trust it. He tries to convince us that it's not true. He tried to convince Eve, and he was successful. So, I'm sure he's successful with the majority of the world that doubts. 


[00:44:08] Cody: And he knows scripture. He 


[00:44:11] Ben: will use scripture against you. He literally did that to Jesus when he was tempting him in the desert. 


[00:44:15] Can you 


[00:44:15] Gina: imagine the audacity? 


[00:44:18] Ben: Yeah, especially 


[00:44:18] Cody: with Some people who think God literally penned the Bible, but 


[00:44:24] Ben: Now that actually brings up an interesting question, now that we brought up Jesus being in the desert. Because there's the thought, while he was out in the desert, and there's the point where the devil says, all you need to do is bow to me. 


[00:44:36] There seems to be some hint there, that essentially that would be Jesus selling his soul. Is it possible for people to sell their souls to the devil? 


[00:44:45] Gina: That's just silly. 


[00:44:47] Ben: But Jesus, there was the story. 


[00:44:50] Gina: You're gonna burn. If you bow down to Satan, you're going to go to hell. If Jesus had bowed down, we wouldn't be saved. 


[00:44:57] Ben: So do you think that was actually an example of the devil trying to get Jesus to sell his soul to him? Or is that something else? 


[00:45:05] Gina: I have to believe that Satan did not comprehend that Jesus was fully God and fully man. Like how could, and I know that I'm probably wrong because I know that when Jesus was born, a lot of angels didn't like it. 


[00:45:19] And so God had to have revealed information to the angels about the purpose of Jesus and what he was coming to do. But like, how stupid. 


[00:45:29] Cody: But there's also, I can't remember where it's at, but it also, scripture says that The whole reason that Jesus spoke and taught in parables was to keep the things hidden from him until the appropriate time. 


[00:45:44] I can't remember where that's at and I'm paraphrasing drastically there. But that was one of the whole reasons that Jesus taught in parables is so that The principalities that are beyond our world didn't know what was going on. 


[00:45:59] Ben: Yeah, I think in this particular instance, this actually wasn't the devil trying to get Jesus to sell his soul to him. 


[00:46:06] I think it was literally him trying to get him to do one evil thing. If even one sin happens, If he loses faith in God in himself for even one second he wins 


[00:46:20] Gina: That's so good ben because of the faith that we lose in ourselves and we give into stupid stuff and he saw jesus as a man 


[00:46:28] Ben: He saw him as a man And that was there is no other time where he could have possibly had any chance against god in a face off And as a man and if he is fully man and fully god That was the one thing the one time he could have gotten him in any meaningful way You And so, it seems like all of that temptation was literally just trying to get him to falter. 


[00:46:52] Like, he, he shows him the nations of the world, and he's, you don't have to sacrifice yourself. I'll make it all irrelevant, I will give you the world, just bow to me. That would be losing faith in himself. That would be rejecting himself, and turning to evil. And even if he didn't give him everything, it didn't matter. 


[00:47:08] Gina: What a beautiful addition to Jesus humanity. Thank you for that. 


[00:47:14] Ben: No problem. But that does go to the wider question. So maybe that wasn't what the devil was doing there. And all he was trying to do was tempt Jesus to do one evil thing and thus completely destroy God. However, can the devil actually get people into contracts where you sell your soul? 


[00:47:33] Gina: I don't know. I mean, he's going to be judged, or he's going to be imprisoned, judged, and executed according to Revelation. It doesn't sound like he has a whole lot of power. 


[00:47:42] Cody: And like hearing some of the testimonies of like the, the Satanists out there, the, their coming to Jesus is pretty powerful in, in the way that they've talked about their, their Their conversion and just the lies that Satan or the demonic will will play especially to those even if they're not believing This whole evil thing anymore. 


[00:48:09] They feel trapped because they've they've made this quote unquote blood contract and I don't know how I feel about all of that, but It's interesting because it's definitely, you can see the mental torment that a lot of these people had during those experience because they truly thought that they had a contract and did sell their soul. 


[00:48:31] Ben: I think there is power in the perception that you can sell your soul to him. And I think that's one of the reasons why I think the devil does encourage that idea, that you can. That there is a line of no return once you sign something over to him. Then one, you no longer have your soul, but give it to him. 


[00:48:49] And two, that he can somehow do things as a result of that. I think there's a lot of misconceptions as far as how all this operates. For one, you don't own your soul. You can't give it to him. 


[00:49:00] Gina: It's like those shows where they go to those storage lockers and buy other people's stuff. We don't own it, and we can't give it freely. 


[00:49:11] And the price of our soul was Christ's sacrifice, and we don't have to accept that, but we've been bought at a very high cost. We can't. Relinquish that that's up to Christ and he's not gonna let go. 


[00:49:29] Ben: I Think oddly enough the best example of what I think is really how this works is A movie called bedazzled starring Brendan Fraser. 


[00:49:41] I know this sounds weird, but In that movie, Brendan Fraser's just a normal guy, and this woman, this very attractive British woman shows up, and she's the devil, and she tells him to sell his soul to her for a certain number of wishes. And every single wish goes horribly wrong. Are you looking at what we 


[00:50:03] Gina: I'm just looking at the movie now. 


[00:50:04] I'm sorry. 


[00:50:06] Ben: Sorry. I, I think that it's going to get a thousand times more traffic now that we mentioned it for the first time in 15 years. 


[00:50:13] Gina: It's from 2000. 


[00:50:15] Ben: It's, it, I keep forgetting what year it is. Yeah, mentioned the first time in 23 years. 


[00:50:21] Gina: Just gonna bless you with that picture of him. I 


[00:50:23] Ben: know. It is one of the, it is a hilarious movie and I actually enjoy it. 


[00:50:28] It's not very well reviewed and not a lot of people seem to enjoy it, but I really like it. But there's a point in the movie where Brendan Fraser's character is thrown in prison and the devil has basically convinced him that Yeah, no matter what, even though these wishes are all going horribly wrong, and he's not getting anything, that, in the end, he still has given up his soul. 


[00:50:52] And he's in prison, and there's this guy in prison with him, and he's like, What are you in here for? And Brendan says, I sold my soul. And the guy says, I hope you got something good for it. He said, I actually didn't get anything. That sounds about right. Anyway, the devil can't possibly take your soul. It's not yours to give. 


[00:51:09] It belongs to God. And the devil may try to confuse you. And get you on the wrong path. But in the end, if you trust him, he'll bring you back. And I think that's the truth. The devil does not own anything. You can't give him anything. He doesn't own anything. He doesn't even 


[00:51:25] Gina: own hell. 


[00:51:26] Ben: No. He does. 


[00:51:28] Gina: That's his tomb. 


[00:51:29] Ben: And that is one of the biggest common misconceptions that the devil is the king of hell. He's not. You're right, Gina. That's the place he's going to be thrown at the end. It's his quarantine zone. It's the fruit of his labor. It's the wages of sin. 


[00:51:42] Gina: I can't wait to talk about hell. 


[00:51:44] Ben: We'll get there. But yeah, you can't make, you can make deals with him, but those deals aren't binding. 


[00:51:52] You can say to him, Hey, I'm giving you my soul. And he'll gladly make you think that you can and that you've given it to him and he'll torment you and he will give you nothing in return. But in the end, the deal means nothing, because you can turn, and you can turn back to Christ. And I don't, can't think of anything dumber that a person could possibly do than try to make a deal with the devil. 


[00:52:11] Thankfully, it isn't a permanent thing. They 


[00:52:11] Gina: don't pay. 


[00:52:12] Ben: No, it don't. 


[00:52:13] Cody: But I want to be famous. 


[00:52:16] Gina: Look at, it's almost a scale of insanity. And we will cover human nature and mental health in a little bit. But it's almost like we are self defeating enough that he doesn't even have to lift a finger. And once we think that we've tied ourselves up in evil, like demonic or satanic things, it's almost like we slide down this slippery slope on our own and he doesn't even have to do anything. 


[00:52:41] We're so self destructive. I think there's a lot of credit that's given to the devil that we really deserve ourselves. Thank you so much for taking the time to listen to our podcast today. If you liked what you heard, please feel free to subscribe and share and leave a positive review. And if you would like to connect with us on social media, you can do so on Instagram and Facebook at the logic of God. 


[00:53:07] You can also send us an email at main dot the logic of God at gmail. com. Thanks again for listening. We hope you have a great day.