Who or What is the Devil? Part 2

[00:00:00] Cody: Hi, thank you for tuning in to the Logic of God podcast. I'm Cody. 


[00:00:14] Gina: I'm Gina. 


[00:00:14] Cody: And I'm Ben. If you're returning, thank you for coming back and if you are a new guest, welcome. 


[00:00:33] Ben: Can the devil make you do anything? 


[00:00:35] Gina: No, we have free will. If God doesn't make us do anything specifically, doesn't force his will on us, then why would someone less powerful and less potent be able to? 


[00:00:48] Ben: So there was a point in scripture that we talked about earlier where It's the Last Supper, and Judas dips the bread in the dish with Jesus, and then Jesus says, what you're about to do, go do it. 


[00:01:02] And it says, at that moment, Satan entered into him. Was Satan controlling Judas from that point on? 


[00:01:09] Gina: There are a lot of different beliefs about what can happen with Satan. bodily possession and some people believe that bodily possession means that the person like you've seen movies where it's like Oh, I can't I go into a trance and I can't control myself and they do whatever and I wake up suddenly And I don't remember anything like Again, knowing my upbringing, I don't know really what I think about that. 


[00:01:37] There has to be an element of, like, acquiescence, like you agree to it. In order for it to happen, it just doesn't happen to you. What do you think? 


[00:01:47] Cody: I don't know, honestly. Because I've never witnessed possession, I've never experienced it myself. So to me, everything thereafter is hearsay. And I don't know. 


[00:02:01] Gina: What do you think about like those horror movies where it's like demon kids living in the walls and they can contort their bodies into crazy shapes? And do you think that's rooted in any kind of truth, the media portrayal of possession and that kind of stuff? 


[00:02:18] Ben: First, going back to Judas, you're right in that when you said that it seems to be something you have to welcome in. 


[00:02:27] It's not as if Judas. Up to that point had been a saint and was a really nice guy. And he was 


[00:02:33] Gina: skimming for however long. 


[00:02:35] Ben: Yeah. He was literally betraying Christ that entire time. He was helping himself to the purse. And at that point he had already agreed for, for a literal bag of silver. He was going to take. 


[00:02:48] A group of people to Jesus. He'd already made that agreement with the Pharisees. Essentially, my understanding is that this was Jesus basically last, odd enough, turn to Jesus moment. It was basically him giving Judas one last chance to not do this. And that was why, at that point, the devil entered him. 


[00:03:08] Because at that point, that was the point of no return. 


[00:03:11] Cody: You had already been, Jesus 


[00:03:13] Ben: literally confronted him is, I know what you're going to do. I know what you're going to do. Go do it. And he could have said, you know what? I'm sorry. This, this whole thing is too much. This is a terrible idea. I'm sorry. I repent. 


[00:03:25] He could have done that. Instead, he literally did just go and do it. Now, there is some discussion as to whether or not he could have made any, like, do you think 


[00:03:34] Gina: he set up a Ouija board and like painted goat blood on the wall? And then that was how he got involved with Satan? 


[00:03:43] Ben: No. So we talked about this before in the demon episode, When people talk about rituals and all that jazz, I don't believe that it's literally the rituals or the blood or anything that has any mystical properties that somehow creates a channel and makes demons able to do things. 


[00:03:59] In this particular instance, literally all it was Judas making that final decision he was going to betray Jesus, that he was going to go through with it. He was going to leave that room from the presence of the Almighty and go and grab some soldiers and betray his Lord. And just that decision. That open rejection of Christ was enough for the devil to enter him. 


[00:04:21] And I believe it's the same concept with anything else. It's that when you're making these crazy, gaudy, over the top rituals, it's not that the rituals have any power whatsoever. And when you go to a Ouija board, it's not that a little flat piece of wood with a bunch of letters put on it has any power in it whatsoever. 


[00:04:39] However, there is the general idea about what it is that you're doing. You think you're playing around with something that has power and a devil sees that and then says, Oh, so you think this is funny. You're going to play around with this. You're going to be cavalier. You're going to open yourself up to this. 


[00:04:57] Okay, then I'm going to take you for a ride. You're welcoming them in and granted there are a lot of people who act out of ignorance But I don't think ignorance protects you 100 percent just like if you were to commit a crime in ignorance There's still damage from that crime. 


[00:05:14] Gina: One of the things I've seen Popularized lately it used to just be and maybe I'm ignorant because I'm a newer Christian and that I've been a Christian less than a decade, but soul ties used to be talked about commonly in church as Sexual, like relationships that you had in the past that damaged your purity and created what was considered a soul tie. 


[00:05:39] I've heard it spoken a lot more lately that there are spiritual soul ties because of like satanic or demonic interactions that you've invited onto yourself. Do you believe that there is such a thing as like a demonic or satanic soul tie? 


[00:05:56] Ben: I guess it depends what you mean. I think there's just like 


[00:06:00] Gina: a curse on you or something that you carry with you as like a mark against you. 


[00:06:06] Ben: So I think. Taking the supernatural out of it for a second and talking about something else like alcoholism. If a person struggles with alcoholism, is that something that they carry with them for the rest of their life? 


[00:06:18] Gina: Yeah. 


[00:06:19] Ben: I think that it's true with literally anything that is deep and is an issue and is scarring. 


[00:06:25] And there are a few issues that are deeper than that. And more scarring than spiritual ones. And so it's not that I think that there's a soul tie, or demons that will follow you around literally for your entire life. I think that once you've struggled with something as deep and as horrifying as that, the horror and the struggle will follow you for the rest of your life. 


[00:06:46] And there is always the possibility that pain and that struggle opens you up to something bad. 


[00:06:53] Gina: I think what I don't like about the term soul tie Especially in terms of demonic things is that it still gives the implication that you can somehow sell yourself soul. 


[00:07:04] Ben: Yeah That's why I wouldn't call it a soul tie I think it's a different way of addressing something and it's addressing it in a way that it doesn't need to be addressed 


[00:07:14] Gina: I think repentance is sufficient 


[00:07:16] Ben: agreed. 


[00:07:17] I think that if there is any soul tie quote unquote It's because the person is unwilling to let go 


[00:07:25] Cody: I think it's because they can't forget. Like, even with alcoholism, if that person never tasted alcohol or experienced that, they would have no connection to that later on in their life. If you've not had connection in a deep way with a demonic being, you're not going to have connection with it later on in life. 


[00:07:44] Gina: Unless you choose to open yourself up to it. Yes, 


[00:07:46] Cody: and once you choose that and it happens, you can't forget, we can't forget things easily, especially if it's, I can't remember the scientific term, but there's certain memories, especially if they're traumatic, that will stick with you no matter what. 


[00:08:02] Sometimes we bury them and we disassociate, but those disassociated memories usually present themselves 


[00:08:14] Gina: When you don't want them to. 


[00:08:15] Cody: In a different way too, not necessarily as a bad memory or a trigger in certain instances, but you'll have a tick or Tourette's or something like that. And there, there is something to like. 


[00:08:28] We're not 


[00:08:28] Gina: saying Tourette's is demonic. 


[00:08:30] Cody: Not by any means, but there is something to, you can't unlearn things most of the time. You can't forget it. 


[00:08:38] Gina: Yeah, 


[00:08:39] Ben: I agree with that. It's like what the Apostle Paul said, once he understood what sin was, he was tempted to repent. To a greater degree to do sin and the sin that he committed was worse as a result because he understood what he was doing So yeah, I agree 100 percent and I think there's also a very good reason why we have such harsh punishments For specific crimes that involve the destruction of innocence Once you rob someone, and that really is it, robbing someone of their innocence, they have no choice in that, and yet it is something that they do frequently carry with them for the rest of their lives. 


[00:09:13] By the grace of God, you can regain your innocence. I think, Gina, you've talked about that, where you've approached certain things with a degree of innocence that you almost wish you didn't have. But it's a beautiful thing in that God can restore your innocence and your purity. 


[00:09:28] Gina: Definitely. And I don't want it to sound hopeless for people who have experienced trauma, whether it's spiritual or sexual or anything. 


[00:09:36] Because God truly can restore that and can take away the burden, but you have to fully surrender it. So if you are dabbling in this supernatural stuff that you really don't understand, cause none of us understand it, no matter how wise and elevated you think you are truly like the only path to that purity and to that protection is repentance. 


[00:10:01] Ben: So what exactly can the devil do? Like, you can't sell your soul to him, and he can't, like, mark your soul forever, and he can't soul tie you. So what exactly can he do? 


[00:10:15] Gina: Trick you. Deceive you. Accuse you. 


[00:10:18] Ben: Is it mostly just whispering in your ear, that, that type of thing? Can he do supernatural things around you? 


[00:10:26] To try to rope you in 


[00:10:28] Gina: I have a very unique personal walk that not everybody has and my perspective First of all when I've shared my experience people have questioned my mental health and that's discouraging It makes it hard for me to share some of the things that I've seen and experienced. He's tricky And I loved what you said about Jesus, trying to trick Jesus into doubting himself, because if we really believe that Jesus was fully man. 


[00:11:01] He would have had to have had some self doubt if we if he ran the gambit of human emotion and experience and He was tempted in all ways It makes sense that self doubt and kind of comparison and different things that we struggle with today Would be things that Jesus at least blinked through that doubt right there's is enough to get us to do a lot of stupid stuff It's hard because I know that demon possession exists, and I know that it's not Satan himself can possess because of what happened to Judas, but I don't know, like, I feel pretty secure in knowing that I'm safe from that. 


[00:11:40] I just, I hate to even think what happens to people when they get involved in that. He can. I don't think he often does. I think we do a lot ourselves. 


[00:11:51] Ben: Yeah, I think that's actually where the majority of our focus should be. You're absolutely right. There are things he can. Hypothetically do and you Cody mentioned before that. 


[00:12:02] Yeah, there's plenty of stories of people who are Satanists who claim that they communed with the devil and gained a measure of clairvoyance. They could see events that were going on around them and weird and spooky and creepy and terrifying things would happen around them. It seems clear that the devil can do supernatural things, though. 


[00:12:21] It seems that there's a pretty tight leash on him as far as what he can do. Right. 


[00:12:24] Gina: There's a whole realm of supernatural spiritualism that we don't know. Scripture tells us that, and we serve a logical, ordered God. So we know that these things exist. The fact that they exist, and the fact that Satan exists in that realm, more than he exists in our realm, I believe means that our lack of understanding There's like a wall. 


[00:12:49] We can only go so far, and he can only go so far. Either way, we're tethered because of our humanity, and he's tethered because he's already been defeated. Really, the problems that we're seeing with satanic stuff, demonic stuff, a lot of it has to do with our own human nature and fighting with our flesh and getting tricked into believing things that just aren't true. 


[00:13:11] And it's really, that's as far as his influence has gone. And like you said, in our last episode, there's like a level of impotence for the demonic, like since Jesus's resurrection, it's become very emasculated in a way. Like it's just. It's not as strong as what we think. 


[00:13:30] Ben: The other was once a time where there were staves turning into snakes and water turning into blood and now the most he can hope for is to get a bunch of really crazed weirdos to try to commune with him and then he can tell them something that he sees. 


[00:13:46] Gina: Or talk them into committing horrible things. 


[00:13:49] Ben: To, yeah, to not leave them alone and give them visions. And ultimately the biggest focus that we should have is not on what the devil can hypothetically do, on what his powers, whatever they might be, are. Because in the end, as long as you turn to Christ, As long as, you know, you're living for him, you're safe, you're fine. 


[00:14:09] The question is, what can he do to ruin your life? What is it that he, he most commonly does? 


[00:14:17] Cody: He lies. This one's tough for me though, because if we take Job's account as Satan, then he does have control of environmental aspects, like the, the wind that blew the house down or the controlling of the raiders. 


[00:14:34] So he still has environmental access to control things in our world and do 


[00:14:43] Ben: that, but I don't know. Even then, we've all gone through periods in our lives where it felt things were really bad. And yet through all of that, if there are any decent spiritual people in your life, they say, God is still God. He has a plan. 


[00:14:56] It's not that God is literally forcing all the horrible things in your life to happen necessarily. Sometimes it's due to other people's choices. Sometimes it's due to things completely beyond your control. Sometimes it's due to things that you do, and it's all your fault. But in the case of Job, while the devil, assuming that is who it is, Was doing all those horrible things in the end. 


[00:15:17] God was still in control The devil couldn't do anything that god didn't let him do 


[00:15:23] Gina: you know what bugs me though. He didn't resurrect his original family like Which also lends credibility to Cody's thought of maybe God knew what was gonna happen in the next step Which was that something else bad was gonna happen and they should have been wiped out But we don't know we're not God, but that always drove me crazy. 


[00:15:41] He really loved his wife and children Why didn't he get them 


[00:15:44] Ben: back? His wife didn't die. But yeah his children. 


[00:15:46] Gina: Yeah 


[00:15:47] Ben: Yeah, and in, in that case, the question is what happened to his children in heaven. Eventually, we are all going to die. And whether God takes you now or he takes you in 800 years, eventually you die. 


[00:15:58] None of them would be alive today. And no matter what, death itself is an evil. And because we introduce death into the world, we are all taken from this world by evil. So whether or not you are taken, your life is taken by bandits, or it's taken by natural causes, that is natural evil. No matter what, you would be taken by evil. 


[00:16:18] Gina: But because we have eternal souls. It's not really death. 


[00:16:21] Ben: Correct. And that's the biggest thing in all of these discussions where people bring up What about all these people who died or what about all the children who would have died here? What about all this suffering in the end in the grand scope of eternity? 


[00:16:33] It's nothing we all live forever And if god is truly good and truly just then justice is done and goodness will be given to you in heaven a thousand times More than what you left behind 


[00:16:43] Cody: if you want to feel insignificant In this life, go read Ecclesiastes. 


[00:16:48] Gina: I read it every day. 


[00:16:50] Cody: We are but vapor. Here today, gone tomorrow. 


[00:16:53] Ben: A wave tossed in the ocean. 


[00:16:55] Cody: No, I like that a lot because there's, this is, if you're a Christian and believe what the Bible tells you, then this is just a small fraction of what's in store for us. And what we have to look forward to is so much greater than we can ever imagine here. 


[00:17:16] Gina: But back on the topic of Satan and being a Christian, what is our assurance that he can't hurt us? 


[00:17:25] What does scripture say for us? Because I don't know how it is for men, and I'd love for you guys to share on it, but there's this very strong, I don't know if it's a trend, but it's just something about some Christian women. They're like, Ooh, that's satanic. That's demonic. I rebuke that. Is that something that is true? 


[00:17:50] And should we be rebuking things and like getting goosebumps and saying that's demonic? And is that founded in reality or is that human emotion? What do you think? I 


[00:18:05] Cody: think that's a bunch of Karens, but I don't know. I don't know the specific instance. It sounds like some church Karens there. It sounds like the people who are gonna 


[00:18:17] Gina: You Airbnb and you're like, Nope, I feel a demonic presence. 


[00:18:21] Cody: All the Jezebel spirits all up in here. 


[00:18:25] Gina: No, I'm serious though. This happens and I want to talk about it. 


[00:18:29] Ben: So I think we can go in two different directions with this. You You can either say, actually three different directions with this. You can say, literally everything is spiritual warfare. The devil's just always up in your business. 


[00:18:44] And every bad thought you ever have is actually the devil's fault. And nothing that you ever think is wrong, but it's just this darn devil's always messing with you, man. And then there's the other side, which is the devil does nothing. And he has no control over me or anyone else, and I'm not actively seeking out anything evil, therefore why would I ever have anything from him? 


[00:19:04] Therefore I don't need to worry about spiritual warfare. And then there's the middle position, which is sometimes one, sometimes the other, and you need wisdom to know the difference. I think the third option is the truth. The trouble is that it's altogether too enticing to take literally every single bad thing that ever happens, or more importantly, every, every single thing you think is bad that happens and slap the devil on it because it implies that God has given you authority to label what things the devil has done. 


[00:19:34] And there are a lot of moral busybodies in the church that, you know, that take that position. I've been, I used to attend a Pentecostal church where there was, you know, some of that going on. So, I do think that there is great danger in both extremes there. Because if you label everything as spirit, like there was one instance a pastor talked about where there was a man and a woman, you know, who were not getting along in their marriage and both of them were very Christian and they were, every time they had an argument, they were rebuking one another in the name of Jesus because both of them were, they were just being assaulted by the devil, no matter what, both of them were doing and saying horrible things and not being obedient to one another and thus they were just rebuking each other in the name of Jesus and nothing was going anywhere. 


[00:20:17] That's the wrong way to look at it. Obviously, those problems were there. But at the same time, there have been points where, just talking on a personal level as a man, there have been times where I've just been sitting, just alone, by myself, and then just suddenly this random thought will jump into my head. 


[00:20:34] And it's not a good one. It's not a pure one. It's not one that the Lord would approve of. I didn't go seeking that. I didn't try to welcome that into my life, but it just jumps in. And at that moment, you have the choice to either focus on it, embrace it, and then make it yours, or you can rebuke it in the name of Jesus and move on with your life. 


[00:20:54] That, I would say, is more frequently what we talk about when the devil whispering something. It's just that you're going about your daily business, not doing anything wrong, and then suddenly it feels like there's just this thought that comes in, this frequently cynical or frequently aggressive, frequently dour, just wrong thoughts. 


[00:21:14] Something you automatically in your soul know is wrong. And then you focus on it and make it yours. That I think is what we should be focused on as Christians. Learning the discernment, both of God's voice, that still small voice that we know isn't ours and the devil's voice, that very loud, angry voice that we want to make ours. 


[00:21:38] Gina: Do you think that Satan pursues people as ardently as? Do you think that Satan wants everybody to bow to him the way that God wants everybody to love him and obey him? 


[00:21:52] Ben: I think the devil doesn't care who you bow to as long as it's someone other than God. I think he just hates God so much and is in so much rebellion that he is looking for anything and everything to hurt God with. 


[00:22:05] Cody: At this point, yeah. This is where the pseudepigrapha I'm reading right now is interesting because I'm going through the, I can't remember what it's called, it's in Latin. Basically, it's like the Testament of Adam or something like that, and there's this, Again, don't agree with anything in it. Don't think it's inspired. 


[00:22:26] Don't even really think this is edifying for the most part. But this one conversation, Adam basically asks Satan, like, what did, what did I do to you that you're pursuing me this way? Like, why, how did I offend you? What, how did I wrong you that you're trying to actively get me out of God's presence? And Satan basically goes into when God created Adam, Michael said that these are in God's image, we need to take care of them and worship them. 


[00:22:57] Adam's in God's image, bow to him, you're going to serve him and Satan's, but I'm higher in the pecking order. I was created first and he hated that and that's technically where the fall came in for Satan in this story, but it's interesting that he wanted Adam to bow to him and not You, you see that, yeah, when you were talking about, he was telling Jesus about him. 


[00:23:23] I saw that play in there, but. 


[00:23:25] Gina: So does that mean we have authority then? That we're not aware of or not acknowledging over darkness? Or good? 


[00:23:32] Cody: I think through Christ, like, we have authority through Christ over the darkness. And, uh, Um, I was going to cover this in the like deliverance portion, but even in like researching the like exorcisms for ancient Judaism and for even some Greek literature, like they had like in their incantations, some form of rebuking the spirit in the gosh, what is the name of the Tetra Tetragrammaton? 


[00:24:03] Yes, the Tetragrammaton. Rebuking it, and this is Greek pagan crap, but they use the Greek version of the Tetragrammaton to cast out this evil spirit. 


[00:24:12] Ben: For those of us who don't speak Christianese, what's the Tetragrammaton? 


[00:24:16] Cody: Basically the connection to when God tells Moses what his name is, Yahweh. 


[00:24:23] Ben: Yeah, I thought it was like the 72 letter version of his name or something like that. 


[00:24:29] I can't remember exactly what it is. 


[00:24:30] Gina: I feel like I'm in geometry class. 


[00:24:32] Ben: It feels 


[00:24:33] Cody: like that. It is. Basically, they're still casting it out in God's name, and I thought that was interesting. 


[00:24:40] Gina: I have a Bible story about something like that, but it's later. 


[00:24:45] Ben: We can read it now, since when do we ever go in order? 


[00:24:49] Gina: I know. 


[00:24:50] Ben: We're bad about sticking to the outline. 


[00:24:53] Gina: So the seven sons of Sceva, Sceva, Sceva, in Acts 19 11, it was like the seven evil sons of the high priest that were calling on the name of Jesus, even though they were not believers and casting out demons. And then it ended up backfiring on them and they got stripped and beaten and then basically humiliated. 


[00:25:16] Yeah. 


[00:25:16] Ben: As it pertains to whether or not we have authority over the devil or demons. Yeah, we definitely don't. You can't just walk up to a person who's possessed or being demonically oppressed and just say, you know what, get out of there. 


[00:25:32] Gina: You just scram. 


[00:25:33] Ben: You skeedaddle. 


[00:25:36] Gina: Is Satan more powerful than we are? 


[00:25:39] Ben: I suppose that depends on what you mean by power. 


[00:25:41] So, seemingly, he's not constrained by the laws of motion that we are. He can be basically anywhere that he wants to be at any given time. It seems also not 


[00:25:52] Gina: to be confused with omnipresence. No, 


[00:25:54] Ben: it's not that he's omnipresent. I think this is probably something we should have specified earlier God is omniscient. 


[00:26:00] He's all knowing. He's omnipresent. He's Omnipotent. He's all powerful in all places at all times and The devil is not He is not all powerful, he is in one place, but he can be in a lot of places very quickly. He can move very quickly. And he exists in the same time that we do, moving through time in the way that we do. 


[00:26:22] There's also some debate as to whether or not he can read your mind. It's generally said that he can't. 


[00:26:27] Gina: If you're a believer, it's pretty much guaranteed that he can't because of the different scriptures that exist, but that's 


[00:26:36] Ben: Yes, going back to the whole parable that Jesus said of if the demon is driven out of a person and then eventually comes back and find it clean and in order and Open and also the idea of if the home is guarded by the strong man, you first have to tie up the strong man. 


[00:26:53] The idea is that if Christ is in your life, the devil is very limited in what he can do. He can basically whisper in your ear. Just any of us can talk to each other. What? I'm just talking. I'm not doing anything. And if you do anything, that's your bad. Basically, if you choose to accept what he says, then that's on you and it is on you. 


[00:27:12] But that's basically all he can do to a believer, unless God specifically allows him to do something more. And in that case, who cares? Because it's God letting, God is directly allowing something to happen, meaning God has a plan for it. And so, I'm not so concerned about instances like that, where maybe the devil has the ability to cause a car accident or something like that. 


[00:27:34] But, In such instances, that's only because God allows it. For every time else, it seems the only thing the devil can do is whisper in your ear. He can't read your mind, but he can observe. And it's been posited that while he can't read the minds of the believers, he's very good at figuring this out. 


[00:27:50] Gina: He's good at psychological warfare. 


[00:27:52] If you look at the patterns of abuse and, like, different types of abusive relationships, where there's, like, physical abuse and then emotional and psychological abuse, he's very good at emotional and psychological manipulation. 


[00:28:04] Ben: And it's very effective. 


[00:28:06] Gina: Yeah, literally can drive people insane. 


[00:28:09] Ben: Now, is this the point where we want to move on to deliverance? 


[00:28:11] Or is there some more we want to cover on the devil? Because this actually might be a good point to move on to deliverance. 


[00:28:16] Cody: Last point on the devil, I'd like to make in just his omnipresence and just the demons. And I heard somebody say once, be careful what you say out loud because it can be used against you. 


[00:28:29] And that's not to promote keeping things in, where two or more gather, the Lord's there, so if you welcome the Holy Spirit into that time, I don't think sharing and seeking wise counsel on something that could be used against you is a bad thing. But, Just the gossip and other stuff that happens that we know is a sin and speaking that out is Welcoming its use against you or somebody else. 


[00:29:00] Agreed. 


[00:29:01] Gina: He's a freak on a leash 


[00:29:03] Ben: That's an interesting way of putting it. 


[00:29:05] Gina: He is. He's a really sad dude. Like I almost want to feel bad for him because He's so, he's so far gone. 


[00:29:13] Cody: There was something I wanted to ask. I commonly have heard people saying that the devil can't do anything to you unless he asks permission from God. 


[00:29:25] Gina: That's not in the Bible. And 


[00:29:26] Cody: they cite the Job instance where he had to go to God to basically torment Job beforehand. 


[00:29:33] Ben: I would say that he can only have influence over the physical world at this point. If he goes to God first, and that would be especially, maybe there's ways he could do that outside of the instance in Job, but as far as Job is concerned, he could not literally mess with the physical world as it pertains to a righteous person unless he got the okay from God to do it. 


[00:29:58] Like we talked about before, there is maybe some question as to whether or not demons and the devil could do things in the natural world elsewhere, you know, influencing animals and things like that. 


[00:30:08] Cody: Global warming. 


[00:30:10] Ben: Oh, it's always been an issue. He is hell. But God always protects those who are his. He set aside Israel for himself. 


[00:30:18] And every time Israel strayed from him was when The enemies would come in or death or famine or destruction would happen for the people that God loves. He protects. And so, in the case of Job, I would say it's a very good example of this concept of Christians being protected. Job was a righteous man who loved God, and as a result, God protected him. 


[00:30:41] And so the only reason that the devil would be able to do something as far as the physical world is concerned is if God let him. Now, I do believe that. The devil was working through his wife and just tormenting him mentally. 


[00:30:56] Cody: And I want to make this clear because bad things happen to good people. 


[00:31:01] Absolutely. You're talking about specifically satanic influence or demonic influence, not natural evil. 


[00:31:09] Ben: Correct. There is the normal natural course of events at this point in world history where bad things just happen. As a matter of cause and effect, if I were to take a marble and chuck it on a street, eventually someone might slip on that marble. 


[00:31:23] That doesn't mean that the devil moved the marble there. However, in terms of the devil doing things directly to try to hurt you, Or drive you away from God and influencing the physical world. He can't do it to you unless God lets him do it. However, that doesn't mean that he has to get permission for literally everything, 


[00:31:43] Gina: and it doesn't mean that God was like, yeah, that's fine. 


[00:31:46] Ben: God didn't specifically tell him to do all of the bad things that he did. He just gave him permission to do it on the condition that he didn't kill. Job as it pertains to Christians, it seems to me, and again this is extrapolation, it's not explicitly said, but. Using the Bible and what it says as a foundation and assuming that was Lucifer, that was the devil in Job. 


[00:32:09] The devil can't just cause your whole house to explode because he hates you, because he wants to do that to all of us. If he had the ability to do it, he'd be doing it non stop all the time. The whole earth would be burning. 


[00:32:20] Gina: Imagine how mad that makes him that you just said that. 


[00:32:22] Ben: Oh, I know. 


[00:32:23] Gina: Go home and pray, Ben. 


[00:32:26] Ben: Oh, I'm sure he, I'm sure he's looking for an occasion against all of us at this point. But, he doesn't have the power to just make bad things happen as often as he wants. However, there's nothing that says he can't just come up beside you and whisper. Try to ruin your marriage. Try to ruin your relationships. 


[00:32:42] Every time you do something wrong, he'll be there to whisper in your ear, You just screwed up too bad this time. He'll whisper little white lies and half truths, getting as close to the truth as possible to make a lie sound appealing, and then drive you away from God. He can absolutely do that, but the reason he can is because he's not actually doing anything. 


[00:33:03] He's just saying something. You have the power to say no. You don't have to listen once on 


[00:33:08] Gina: a leash, but he's not muzzled. 


[00:33:11] Ben: That's actually perfect. I wish I had a thought of that. 


[00:33:13] Cody: Dang it, Gina. 


[00:33:14] Gina: Put that on a T shirt. 


[00:33:16] Cody: That's why being above reproach in those instances is so powerful because in Job's instance, You have the ultimate humiliation for Satan in that story, where he's only good because you only bless him. 


[00:33:31] And then at the end, Job is still worshipping. How humiliating is that for Satan, who's not all knowing, who doesn't know what Job's gonna do. He probably fully thought that Job was gonna turn and curse God because of what was happening to him, but Job stayed faithful and praised God in the end. And how humiliating. 


[00:33:53] Ben: Absolutely. I think that because the devil understands humanity very well, it's all the more frustrating when he fails. Because it doesn't make sense to him. I think God's grace is confounding to him infinitely more than it is to us. 


[00:34:08] Cody: Oh, and if pride is one of his main weaknesses, then humiliation is a great weakness. 


[00:34:14] Combat strategy. 


[00:34:16] Gina: I don't know. I think humiliation would be motivating to Satan 


[00:34:19] Ben: Motivating for vengeance, but the thing is like god didn't give him authority to do stuff to job for his entire life Once that chapter of job's life was closed god blessed him immeasurably more than that time before And I see that exact same kind of pattern in my own life, if I'm honest, where there are periods where it feels like I'm distant from God and where you hear that little voice whispering in your head, trying all the harder to get you to do something stupid. 


[00:34:46] But then you move on from that, and then it's like you go on to a golden age where it's like you're basking in the glory of the Lord, and you have some of the best years of your life. 


[00:34:55] Gina: It's the hills and valleys of just being alive. So are the valleys like spiritual warfare, though? Is it a battle, or is it just a valley? 


[00:35:06] Ben: I'd say that, yeah, it's generally spiritual warfare. And spiritual warfare doesn't always involve the devil. Sometimes it is just you. 


[00:35:16] Gina: It's spirit against flesh, and flesh against flesh. 


[00:35:20] Ben: Did we 


[00:35:21] Cody: talk about sun nature enough? 


[00:35:22] Ben: No, I don't think we did. So why don't you 


[00:35:25] Cody: So, we, we touched on, there's a lot of cultures out there, a lot of people in society who go in and, the devil made me do it. 


[00:35:35] If I sin, the devil made me do it. Or I do something wrong, the devil made me do it. And this is where I wish that they would look at total depravity. I don't agree with it, but we're pretty awful. Like us as human beings is pretty awful. And especially in America, I think the principalities that are not good, that are at play have a really easy job in America with how terrible we are. 


[00:36:08] Gina: There's a lot of influence in Western culture that allows us to believe that we are better than we are and more deserving and empowered than I think we probably are. 


[00:36:18] Cody: Trying to remember the quote. I had a great 


[00:36:21] Gina: You didn't put it in the outline? 


[00:36:23] Cody: No. 


[00:36:23] Gina: What is with you tonight? Both of you, not putting your quotes in the outline. 


[00:36:28] Ben: It was C. S. Lewis, I assumed everyone already knew it. Uh huh. That says 


[00:36:33] Cody: Tozer, so it's right there, 


[00:36:36] Ben: but I can't remember. What exactly would you think is the balance here between what the devil does and what our own human nature drives us to do? 


[00:36:46] Gina: There's a buffer. It's the armor of God. I almost said the logic of 


[00:36:52] Cody: God. 


[00:36:53] Ben: Six of one, half a dozen of the 


[00:36:54] Cody: other. I don't think there's a problem treating them the same. If you attack the flesh with scripture, that's not a bad strategy. If you attack spiritual warfare with scripture, that's not a bad strategy. 


[00:37:07] Gina: Is it true that if you just declare the name of Jesus that it all flees? 


[00:37:13] Ben: It has to be done with the right heart posture. It has to be done with the right attitude. 


[00:37:18] Gina: So you can't just say the name of Jesus and then suddenly everything's fine. You have to have meaning behind it. There is understanding. 


[00:37:24] Ben: There is power in his name. Absolutely, but it's not as if just saying his name by itself is the answer to everything that will ever happen to you. 


[00:37:36] Otherwise, you would never have any problems. Anytime you felt temptation, like, as men, we feel temptation all the time. And if every time we had some kind of random thought in our head, we would just said, Jesus. And that's it. Now, there's a reason why the Bible has lessons in it. It teaches us. It teaches us wisdom. 


[00:37:55] It teaches us things that we rely on, that we fall back on when our reason abandons us. And Jesus teaches through parables, not just to say his name and then that will solve everything. He teaches you wisdom. Now, when it comes to the fiery darts of the enemy, this is like you mentioned before, Gina, the, the armor of God. 


[00:38:15] It's not simply God's name. It's his armor. And so it's the fruits of the spirit. It's also learning the word. It's the shield of faith, the helmet of salvation, the sword of the spirit belt of truth. Like 


[00:38:28] Gina: shoes, don't forget 


[00:38:29] Ben: the shoes of the gospel of peace. Yeah. They got these little wings on them too. 


[00:38:33] They're beautiful. But the point is that it's not just one magic bullet that can be used to kill the enemy. It's that you have to assemble the full armor. And each individual piece of armor provides a different service. The sword of the spirit is the method through which you attack the enemy. And so when you say, through the power of the spirit, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, I rebuke you, that is an attack on the enemy. 


[00:38:57] And that generally is what we talk about when we say rebuking the devil in Jesus name. You are through the power of the spirit rebuking him. Now, at the same time, there is the shield of faith to prevent any of the texts from even reaching you in the first place. When you are living a life that is faithful to God, when you truly trust in God, it's not simply having faith, but living a life that is faithful, then the devil doesn't really have many opportunities to attack you. 


[00:39:23] And the helmet of salvation is the thing that protects your head, and going back, Gina, to what you said before, he can't read your thoughts. Salvation is the thing that protects your mind, it protects your head. He can say whatever he wants, it'll get through, it'll get through, but he can't do anything to you. 


[00:39:38] Gina: That was one thing growing up in the household that I did. One thing that was constantly under attack, and it triggers me now very badly, is my sanity. My mom would make me question my sanity because she would gaslight me. into thinking that what was going on was normal and that what I was experiencing wasn't really what I was experiencing. 


[00:39:58] And then going into churches and saying, Hey, I need help. Help me. And they would think we're not really equipped in actual spiritual warfare. So let me tell you about the deliverance ministry in terms of like mental health and spirits and like moods more than experiences and things that actually happened. 


[00:40:20] And that really triggered me. But knowing that I have salvation and knowing that I have the armor of God, I feel very secure in my sanity. And that's always been something that really bothered me, because I really thought for a really long time that I was crazy. That what was going on in our house was driving me crazy. 


[00:40:40] And meeting Cody and having been introduced to Christ in scripture and churches, and having him see some of it for himself and being like, This isn't normal. Let's talk about this has helped me to feel very secure, but mental health and insanity, I think, goes hand in hand with spiritual warfare and the demonic and satanic things. 


[00:41:03] And we overemphasize on that. The evil spiritual stuff. And we under emphasize the mental health side of things. And I think that the helmet can be a very helpful tool in combating that because we get so caught up in what sounds, you know, miraculous or, you know, outside of the laws of physics and logic, but really we need to focus on what's in here, our head. 


[00:41:29] I'm pointing to my head. 


[00:41:31] Ben: Thank you for specifying to our 


[00:41:33] Gina: listeners. 


[00:41:34] Cody: It's hard because in a culture today, we have these catchy songs where it, you know, we have, there, there's power in the name of Jesus. There's no greater name than the name of Jesus. And your name 


[00:41:46] Gina: is a light that the 


[00:41:47] Cody: shadows can't deny. 


[00:41:48] Gina: Thank you. 


[00:41:49] Cody: And. I'm not saying any of that is not true, but I think we get this misconception that if we just put on loudspeaker Jesus over and over again throughout our house that we'll be safe and everything will be perfect. And that's not what It's 


[00:42:05] Gina: part of it. But it's not the end. 


[00:42:07] Cody: Yes, and just like saying Jesus without context, I don't think does anything. 


[00:42:13] I think in certain instances it can, and it has for me in certain instances. This idea that just saying Jesus is gonna be good enough So I don't need to study my Bible if I get spiritually attacked I'll just say Jesus and I don't need to put on the armor of God every single day because Jesus and Jesus and it's He's great. 


[00:42:37] There is power in his name. There is Instances where we read about they hear his name and shudder like it There is power to it, but it's not the cure all and the fix all and the reason to not study your Bible. Not equip yourself with all of the armor that Ben just went through. 


[00:43:00] Ben: Yet, to know God is to pursue truth, to pursue Him. 


[00:43:05] Part of knowing God is knowing His name. That is absolutely true. And for a great many people, like I've heard so many stories about people who just learn His name. And it changes their lives. Just saying his name out loud for the first time was enough to drive certain people to tears. The thing is, if you just stop at that, let's say that's where the story ends. 


[00:43:24] I learned the name of Jesus and I said it out loud and it changed my life. The end. You're not growing any closer to God. Imagine if after Cody, I met you at a church service and imagine if you came over to me at that service and you were like, Hey, so do you want to join a Bible study? Oh, sure. But then I never go. 


[00:43:47] I said yes to a Bible study and it changed my life. I learned Cody's net. If we never progressed any further than that, what would be the point? Yeah, it was a diverging point for my life, but only because we continued to do things. 


[00:44:00] Gina: Sometimes in your life, there will be moments where all you can do is say Jesus's name. 


[00:44:05] You'll be frozen in terror. The only thing that you can come up with to say is Jesus. It's Jesus, and it's help me, but it's not, you're not always that helpless. And by growing and maturing in your faith, you won't be that helpless. I 


[00:44:25] Cody: know that God knows every hair on our head, but what are we doing so that God knows our name? 


[00:44:33] This whole good and faithful servant concept. What are you doing that God is going to call out, Cody, you've done well, my good and faithful servant. I know my actions through you and I'm calling you home. Like, where does God know your name? Is it just because he knows everybody's name? He's all knowing he knows your name 


[00:44:55] Gina: That's something i've been praying about lately like not my name, but There have been things like my word for the year's voice. 


[00:45:02] And so i've been learning how to talk again because I had a very quiet season and one of the things that I felt very convicted about was Some of the stories that i'm getting ready to share i've never talked to god about he knows everything but I haven't taking the time to talk to Him about it. So what good does it do me to talk to people about it when I haven't even gone to God? 


[00:45:30] He should be our first choice, not our second or last choice. And He won't say our name if His name isn't first on our lips. 


[00:45:42] Cody: No, depart from me, I never knew you. How is God going to know your name? 


[00:45:48] Gina: Not that salvation is works based, but you have to put in work. It's not good enough to just say, I got dipped in water and I repeat it after my pastor and I am saved. 


[00:45:59] That may be true, but are you really secure? 


[00:46:04] Ben: The whole point of the analogy of the armor of God is that armor is meant to be worn in a battle. You aren't sitting at home. In a suit of armor, with a shield and a sword, just chilling. 


[00:46:17] Gina: You sure? 


[00:46:18] Ben: God intends for you to be a warrior, to fight the good fight, to finish the race, to keep the faith. 


[00:46:24] Those are all actions. God calls you to action, and so you have to answer the call. And in the end, that's the only true way you can find peace. There is great peace in that initial call, but eventually you have to answer. 


[00:46:40] Gina: Thank you so much for taking the time to listen to our podcast today. If you liked what you heard, please feel free to subscribe and share and leave a positive review. 


[00:46:49] And if you would like to connect with us on social media, you can do so on Instagram and Facebook at the Logic of God. You can also send us an email at Maine dot the Logic of god@gmail.com. Thanks again for listening. We hope you have a great day.