What Is Spiritual Warfare?

[00:00:00] Cody: Hi, thank you for tuning in to the Logic of God podcast. I'm Cody. 


[00:00:14] Gina: I'm Gina. 


[00:00:15] Cody: And I'm Ben. If you're returning, thank you for coming back, and if you are a new guest, welcome. 


[00:00:36] Gina: We talked a little bit about everything is spiritual warfare. What about everything is a sign that Jesus is coming back? 


[00:00:44] Cody: Oh that hold on. Let me put my tinfoil hat on Honestly, do you 


[00:00:48] Gina: want to cover that during the heaven and hell one or at a different time? 


[00:00:52] Ben: we can always cover it again if you feel the need to but as far as My opinion on it every single generation from the time of christ to now has believed that it was the end I believe as they did I believe that it's very possible. 


[00:01:07] We are living in the time of the end You And every generation was instructed, we have to live as if that's the case. The parable of the virgins with their oil lamps. You have to keep your lamps trimmed and burning. You have to have that extra oil. You have to live as if your prince is coming. 


[00:01:24] Gina: Aw. We don't hear that one very often. 


[00:01:27] It's a good one. It 


[00:01:28] Ben: is a good one. And that's the truth. It may be disheartening. It may be a source of mockery and ridicule for those who don't believe, but it's the truth. Every generation has believed it was their time. And I believe the same. And we all have to live as if that's the case. 


[00:01:45] Gina: I think we all hope it's the case. 


[00:01:47] Because every generation has been like, can it really get worse? 


[00:01:52] Ben: Yep. And humanity's 


[00:01:53] Gina: met. 


[00:01:54] Ben: It's funny because I was talking with my parents a few years ago, talking about how bad things were getting, and we were curious if things could get worse, and we couldn't picture it. And then every year after that, it has gotten worse. 


[00:02:06] And we've had the same conversation many times. And we, more recently, we've been more musing about the fact that we could have never pictured things becoming the way that they are now. And, obviously, things can get worse. You'd think we would have learned the lesson. Things can always get worse. The question is, when do you hit rock bottom? 


[00:02:23] When do you hit the point of no return? 


[00:02:26] Gina: When the world is on fire and you're too late. 


[00:02:29] Ben: Essentially, yeah. But every generation has had their own fair share of issues. I'm sure the people who lived at the first World War thought it was the worst thing ever. And you got people like A. A. Milne, who's the guy who wrote Winnie the Pooh, who also wrote a book about how he just wished no one would fight ever again. 


[00:02:46] And then the whole world decided actively that they just would never fight again, except Germany, who decided, nah, they needed World War the sequel. And drag the rest of the world into World War the Sequel. Every generation has been faced with true horror. It can always get worse. And in fact, we're promised in the Book of Revelation that it will get worse. 


[00:03:05] But until that time comes, the hour or day, no one knows. 


[00:03:10] Gina: I woke up this morning and I was like, Is that you, Jesus? Please? We've made it to point three. I don't know if it even bears talking about. It's the marriage of Satan and escaping the demonic. 


[00:03:28] Ben: I think there are all kinds of roads that lead to this. 


[00:03:32] There's some people who point at certain things like video games, and they say, oh, because you played Doom 3, obviously you're possessed by the devil. The devil's in the video game. The devil's in the movies. 


[00:03:43] Gina: No, now they're saying that it's in programming behind the screen, and it's flashes 


[00:03:48] Ben: AI. 


[00:03:50] Gina: Brainwashing. 


[00:03:52] Ben: The thing is There, there's all kinds of programming on TV, and on the internet, I would say is absolutely terrible for you and you should never watch. That doesn't mean that I think that people who watch it are possessed by the devil. I think there's programs like Game of Thrones, and there were plenty of absolutely horrible, Scenes in there that a lot of people found very titillating and would have been very enticing and as a result would have been very wrong. 


[00:04:19] But just because people watch it doesn't mean that they're of the devil. I think it's just not a healthy thing to do or to focus on. Actual entertaining of the devil, let's say like a direct appeal to him, is something different. That doesn't mean, however, that you shouldn't be careful about what you take in. 


[00:04:37] Gina: I did want to ask you personally a question. Should we avoid New age healing, if it is scientifically proven to work, even like salt rooms, 


[00:04:49] Ben: as far as salt, there's literally a salt spot that my, uh, brother in law and my sister ran. And as far as that goes, I wouldn't have called it new age. There were certainly people who came there who treated it as new age, but my sister and my brother in law didn't treat it as that. 


[00:05:04] And there were actual scientific reasons for why the salt treatments would work. Obviously salt has been used as a treatment for. Legitimate injuries for a very long time. If you have a big gaping wound and you throw a whole bunch of salt in it, it dehydrates it, it kills all the bacteria and allows you to heal much faster. 


[00:05:20] Salt is helpful. However, there are people who add a spiritual dimension to it. And so if the idea is that, let's say there's someone who Offers you a coupon to a salt spa. Should you automatically say no? No. However, if this is a crazy Wiccan healer who says I want you to come with me to the salt spa so that we can Explore the the astral plane and go throughout the universe and there were people like that who went to my brother in law And my sister's salt spa. 


[00:05:47] You sound like my 


[00:05:47] mom 


[00:05:48] Ben: I yeah, i'm not pulling this out of nowhere that stuff. There are people who believe in that stuff If someone like that offers you anything, say no. There are all kinds of people who will take the most mundane, simple things and try to add spirit to it as flavor. 


[00:06:04] Gina: So what do you think about vibrational healing? 


[00:06:08] Do you know what that is? 


[00:06:09] Ben: Uh, 


[00:06:10] Gina: it's like where you have a bowl with a mallet and you like, it's makes noise and you can go in a circle around the edge. And there's all kinds of different like alternative healing. And I'm just curious, should Christians just blanket avoid them, or if they actually are scientifically proven to work, is it something that would be useful that wouldn't be considered bad? 


[00:06:34] Cody: My opinion on this is, if it's scientifically proven, then I don't really think it's wrong. The vibrational healing stuff is really cool as far as God's creatures, cats, the reason that they purr and the frequency that they purr at is actually healing to their body. That's how they found a lot of this vibrational healing stuff. 


[00:06:57] So there, there is stuff to frequency and its ability to heal scientifically. But if you're going into it because you think that, That's going to align your chakras or whatever, then you're not doing it for the right reason. 


[00:07:14] Gina: So it's a bad intention. 


[00:07:15] Cody: I think so. 


[00:07:17] Gina: I, I agree with you. I just wanted to talk about it because like, I'm going down a homeopathic route a little bit with our family and a lot of the doctors claim to be Christian, but also have these like chakra aligning weird things that they do. 


[00:07:34] And it's like, they're trying to cater to both. And I've been thinking about it. 


[00:07:40] Cody: Oh, it's like yoga. Some people think it's absolutely evil and opens you up to demons. I don't think that. I used to stretch and do yoga poses that I didn't even know were yoga poses, but stretched certain parts of my body. And I don't think I was open, opening myself up for demons when I was doing that. 


[00:08:02] Ben: Agreed. It's all about the attitude with which you approach them. As far as a lot of these homeopathic cures and whatnot, as a general rule, I am incredibly skeptical of pretty much all of them. 


[00:08:12] Mm hmm. 


[00:08:13] Ben: And with good reason. Having been a part of Assault Spa, there are always tons of people who are coming in and talking about all sorts of crazy nonsense. 


[00:08:22] There are two different branches when people talk about scientifically proven. There's empiricism and then there's actual. Pure statistical, mathematical, proven science. As far as empirical, where it's just, you can interview a whole bunch of people and find out what they think. Obviously, you can do a scientific empirical study on just about anything. 


[00:08:43] You could do a scientific empirical study on, say, the effects of witchcraft on healing, and you could find out if it succeeds. If scientifically, Witchcraft was proven to heal people. I would say don't do it anyway. I don't think science is the line across which we should set this. The idea is, what is the attitude with which you are approaching this? 


[00:09:05] It's the same thing with food sacrifice to idols, and I know I reference that verse all the time, but it really is a great point to make. For a lot of these issues that so many Christians choose as the hill to die on. If it's literally food that was sacrificed to idols and Paul says, It's okay, it's food. 


[00:09:24] The question is, with what attitude are you approaching this and what is the effect? Same thing here. What is the attitude with which you're approaching these treatments and what is the effect? Now, setting that aspect aside, the, the spiritual, there's also the, is this going to work? That's a separate question. 


[00:09:41] And that is something you need to take up with your doctor. I don't know. Oh yeah, no, I'm not asking 


[00:09:46] Gina: that. I'm really asking because there are several doctors that I'm talking to about different things that are more about. overall health, not targeting specific health problems. And some of them are suggesting participating in things that I know my mom does as a part of her rituals that are in the occult. 


[00:10:08] And I felt very offended and triggered that they even offered those things to me because I've always associated them with darkness and evil. And I'm seeing in some people, Aspects where I have prejudices against things that my mom just does and may or may not be spiritual. And I think I'm giving a little too much credit. 


[00:10:31] So that's why I was asking. 


[00:10:32] Ben: Potentially. It is also worth keeping in mind that a lot of these alternative medicines, let's say, do attract a certain crowd. 


[00:10:42] Gina: Right. 


[00:10:42] Ben: And thus you need to be very careful. Cautious of that and plus just my backgrounds in physics most of these things as far as I can tell don't work 


[00:10:50] Gina: and it's not that I would even entertain doing them because I know that they're a waste of money and It's like body drumming, like weird, like weirdo stuff, like nudist colony. 


[00:11:00] Like I would never go to stuff. And so I'm not saying I would do it. I just, it's had me processing lately. And I was just curious what your thoughts were since you worked in a salt spa. 


[00:11:11] Cody: What about the opposite side of that and the Christian realm, refusing any form of medical treatment? Because God will heal you if he chooses to. 


[00:11:23] Ben: He can heal you through physical means. 


[00:11:26] Gina: Or you can go and be with him, which is like the ultimate healing. 


[00:11:31] Ben: Yeah, so like this kind of brings up the story I was once told of a guy who was on a roof, and there's a flood. And then there's a boat that comes by, and the boat's like, Hey, do you need help? And he's like, No, God will save me. 


[00:11:44] And the boat's okay, and then it goes away. And then, yeah, there's a helicopter that comes by and it drops a ladder down and says, Hey, do you need help? No, God'll save me. And then, yeah, the water's up to his neck and his whole house is completely underwater and he's just swimming there. And then another boat comes by and says, Hey, you need some help? 


[00:12:00] No, God'll save me. And then eventually he drowns, and then he comes face to face with God and he's like, Why didn't you save me? And God said, What are you talking about? I sent three people to save you and you said no. For me, a lot of this is people trying to control the way in which God will heal them. 


[00:12:18] They don't want to go to a hospital, they want God to miraculously heal their body. And you can't force God to do anything to you. 


[00:12:25] Cody: Thou shalt not put the Lord your God to the test. 


[00:12:28] Ben: It's a bit like saying, God gave me a certain base level of strength, therefore I will not do any strength training. Or God gave me a certain amount of knowledge, and any knowledge that I would receive is what God wants me to have, so I'm not gonna go read books. 


[00:12:41] I don't think it's a consistent worldview. I don't think that it works. 


[00:12:46] Gina: We've seen it not work and the people that we've seen it not work with have all come to the conclusion that God wanted them to seek medical treatment because they discipled nurses and other patients. They built their testimony and developed courage that they didn't have before. 


[00:13:05] They ended up perfectly healthy with no more problems to worry about and the things that they were afraid of happening because they were like Catastrophizing in their mind didn't end up happening So they took a leap of faith in getting this medical intervention that made them uncomfortable temporarily, but ultimately saved their lives and potentially impacted other people's eternity through salvation. 


[00:13:31] That's more meaningful than the like, ta da! 


[00:13:34] Ben: It is. And honestly, I think this is, it doesn't just apply to the field of medicine. I think there's a big temptation with a lot of Christians to say, God did X, therefore, I'm not going to do anything. For people who are seeking a husband or a wife, they'll say, God will bring in somebody just because they don't want to go through the effort of meeting people and heartbreak and all that. 


[00:13:56] It's just, no, God loves me. Therefore, God will bring the right person and not have to put any effort into it. And that's a very tempting way of looking at it. If I'm honest, that was the way I looked at it for a long time. I just didn't want to bother with it, but that's not the way that God commands us to live. 


[00:14:12] Cody: It's hard not to bring up Calvinism right now. 


[00:14:15] Gina: I was just thinking how we have this empty chair. 


[00:14:19] Ben: Thanks, Gina. 


[00:14:20] Gina: She's coming. I'm not a Calvinist. She's on a KJV. I'm on a KJV. So how can we escape the demonic? Do we want to go there? 


[00:14:30] Ben: I think it's about time. 


[00:14:32] Gina: Okay. Exorcisms. For everyone. 


[00:14:37] Ben: To be clear, exorcisms are a thing. 


[00:14:39] They are shown to have happened in the New Testament. And there are times where it is called for. Okay. But it's not as if that's the rule. That seems to be the exception. And there are times where people are just struggling with actual, just legitimate mental health issues. And thus, they need to be treated as such. 


[00:14:58] And treating them as if they're possessed by a demon is actually not going to be very helpful for them. 


[00:15:04] Gina: Definitely. 


[00:15:06] Ben: On the flip side, there are a lot of churches these days who have gone so far in the opposite direction that they're actually terrified of treating anything as spirit. They're just like, look, we have a lot of counselors. 


[00:15:18] We have a lot of great services that they don't have anything. Or they don't, they'll have literally nothing. They just hope that somebody comes in and takes care of it. 


[00:15:26] Gina: Or that you'll leave. 


[00:15:27] Ben: But more often than not, it seems to be the three different tiers. Either at the lowest tier, they just have no clue. 


[00:15:31] There's nothing. Next tier up is that maybe they have some connection with social services. They have some mental health professionals. Some people they can reference you to. But as far as like actual spiritual service. You are being demonically oppressed, more likely, or possibly you know someone who is possessed. 


[00:15:49] They have no clue what to do. Go to the Catholic church, they might have something for you. But a Protestant church, not so much. However, if you go to certain churches like Pentecostals, oh, they will gladly cast a demon out for you. They can't wait. They're just sitting on the edges of their chairs, sitting in the pews, just hoping someone bursts through those doors and says, I got a demon! 


[00:16:09] God bless them. They can't wait to be involved in that kind of thing. 


[00:16:12] Gina: We have a couple of friends that are very enthusiastic about That type of thing. And I've never personally, I I've seen what I grew up around, but I've never seen the Christian side of it. 


[00:16:25] Cody: There's crazy and Christian side of it. Only 


[00:16:28] Gina: thing I've ever seen is when we accidentally went to the Pentecostal church and we didn't know it was a Pentecostal church. 


[00:16:34] And there was like, there were, I think three people literally intentionally beating their head against pews. And that was as close as I've ever gotten. So. I was scared and never went back. 


[00:16:47] Ben: Can't blame you. 


[00:16:48] Gina: They weren't friendly either. They were like very into it and then they all left and they didn't talk to each other at the end. 


[00:16:54] Cody: What do you say? The Holy Spirit stays there. It doesn't follow them home. 


[00:16:58] Gina: Oh, it's like the Holy ground. Like you were doing in school. 


[00:17:01] Cody: Oh yeah. 


[00:17:03] Ben: Oh, 


[00:17:03] Gina: sorry. Way off. 


[00:17:05] Ben: No, it's okay. But yeah, it's tough because it's not something that. The church seems to confront much. And when you look at a lot of the writings of the early church fathers, there was a lot more talk about this kind of thing, about driving out demons and healing people and delivering people. 


[00:17:21] and trying to fight the good fight on the spiritual front. These days, it seems to be something that people are afraid of because the prominent view is materialism. And for the people who are talking about spirit, if they were actually confronted by a legitimate case of demonic oppression or possession, they would have no clue what to do. 


[00:17:40] Gina: They haven't. Historically, with my situation with my mom and seeking wise counsel, I have yet to find a pastor or somebody with experience in what they consider to be deliverance to actually have anything of value to say about the situation or even understand the situation. Literally. And I've talked to dozens of pastors and church leaders and professors trying to get information and none of them have been equipped. 


[00:18:08] Cody: No, and they'll usually in our instance tell you to pour back into that relationship and just dive deeper in she just needs a little bit more of your Jesus influence and I think that's terrible advice too Not that 


[00:18:21] Gina: when it's actually demonic when it's actually satanic You don't lean in 


[00:18:27] Cody: no, that's the 


[00:18:28] Gina: worst advice you can get 


[00:18:29] Cody: terrible even if she's not possessed or oppressed like They're dabbling in stuff. 


[00:18:34] They have no idea and you can't force people to change their minds 


[00:18:40] Gina: if you look at the bible and the stories of people who were demonically oppressed and influenced and possessed You, you don't have stories of their family, like chasing them down and being like, Hey, Jesus loves you and you're going to be fine. 


[00:18:57] No, actually like they're homeless and alone and raving mad and it takes them being outcast and hated. And Jesus comes in and rescues them through what ministry he does. Like it's not even biblical advice. There's no example of just loving someone through their demonic. stuff. If that was enough, then Jesus wouldn't have been necessary. 


[00:19:22] Cody: There's time to shake the dust off to your sandals and move on. 


[00:19:26] Ben: Now, as far as the path to deliverance goes in these situations where there is possession or oppression, we'll start with possession because that's the one I know the least about. It's the thing I have the least interaction with, but it's not something that is completely alien to me. 


[00:19:43] It's something that my father's talked about. So He was involved with the driving out of a demon at one point. And I think that my old church back in Wisconsin did handle that on more than one occasion. In instances where you have someone who is possessed, one, you actually need to know that they are. 


[00:20:00] But part of that is spiritual discernment. And there are people who have spiritual gift of discernment. That's something that Paul literally talks about. People who have the ability to discern between spirits. One, you need to have a group of people. This isn't something where you literally walk into a room, see a person who is convulsing and crawling around on the ceiling and you say, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ I rebuke you, get out of him. 


[00:20:21] This is something where you need to have a group of people who you know and you love and you trust. All of whom are anointed by the Spirit. All of whom are active in prayer and who pray with one another and meet regularly. You need to have a group of people. If you are going to confront this at all, you need to have a group of people who are your peers, who are warriors in Christ. 


[00:20:41] Men and women doesn't matter. And the Bible specifically says, Where two or three are gathered in my name, there I am. If God is there, he is the only one who will save. Therefore, don't do this alone. Do it with people who you know and trust and are with you in Christ. And that, honestly, is the solution for all of these problems. 


[00:21:01] Having people who you know, and you love, and you trust, and can meet together and pray in Christ is the solution to the majority of these issues in spiritual warfare. It may sound too simple. It may sound silly. There has to be more to it. This is the base. 


[00:21:15] Gina: When he gets you alone, he knows that he's got a real good shot. 


[00:21:20] And that's why I think people who are homeless and don't have a lot of human interaction, they lose their minds. Because the only voice they're hearing is the evil whisper in their ear. 


[00:21:30] Ben: And when you're facing these issues alone, it is very easy for the enemy to convince you that you're crazy. Or for other people to convince you that you're crazy and you're not seeing something. 


[00:21:39] When you're confronting something with a group, the people will always be able to have your back. If they're people that you know and you trust and you love, and who you know through long time experience, aren't crazy. If all three of us were to confront something together, I would trust what you guys had to say about it. 


[00:21:54] I'd especially trust Cody, since he's the type of guy who'd usually be very critical, and he's not gonna be easily swayed by something. So if Cody were to say, oh yeah, that dude's possessed, then yeah, we would know. 


[00:22:04] Gina: Yeah, because he's not, Cody is not one to like, go into the fantastical side of things. I 


[00:22:10] Cody: feel like on the podcast I come across way more fantastical than I actually am. 


[00:22:17] Ben: That's only because in these past few episodes we've been forced to talk about the fantastical. And the trouble when you're addressing things with the logic of God, when you're trying to ascertain the way things really work. But you have to follow the path, the information that we have has given us, and that's what you're doing. 


[00:22:36] And you've repeatedly emphasized that you don't know if it's 100 percent true, but that seems to be where the information is leading us. As far as your everyday life, that's not, that's the same way that you are. You follow what is the truth. 


[00:22:50] Gina: If it weren't for his direct encounters with my family, I don't think that he would necessarily believe some of the things that we've experienced, that they were even real. 


[00:23:01] Cody: I mean, I do, when we were, like, long distance, not knowing your mom at all, it was like, oh, there's two sides to every story. I really, it can't be that bad. What you're saying can't be that bad. I know it's bad, but Not trying to diminish her perception of it, but it's okay. What's the other side of the story? 


[00:23:22] Because that's who I am. I always want to know the other side. And it's okay. Yeah, this is bad. 


[00:23:29] Gina: Yeah, once you were in it, you were like, Did she really just say that? Did she really do that? 


[00:23:35] Ben: And tying this back to the idea of handling demonic possession or oppression, that is why going into it, you need people with you. 


[00:23:44] Gina: people who can identify it as not being normal, not being typical of like human behavior. And that's one of the reasons why I really like the way that Catholics handle it in terms of exorcism is because they pull in experts on psychology and humanity before they jump to the conclusion that it is absolutely demonic. 


[00:24:07] Ben: And they frequently have atheists do it because they, they want atheist psychologists to interview these people because if an atheist psychologist says that person's possessed, you can probably take that to the bank. Now, there is some question as to how many of these actual exorcisms that the Catholic Church do are real. 


[00:24:24] I don't think all of them are made up, but who knows how many of them are real versus fake and how many of the miracles that they've supposedly done or witnessed have been real versus fake. However, that's not the subject here. The idea is that for, uh, The average listener, the average Christian who somehow comes into contact with this. 


[00:24:42] What do you do? That's exactly what you do. The first thing that you start with is you ask yourself, Do I have a group of people who I know and meet with regularly and can pray with? If you have nobody, don't do anything. 


[00:24:54] Gina: Don't lean on your own understanding. 


[00:24:56] Ben: Don't lean on your own understanding, and more importantly, don't do anything yourself. 


[00:25:01] Get someone else involved who does, who either has some experience with this, or more importantly, who you know is blessed with the gifts of the spirit and has other people who this person knows, who also have gifts of the spirit and can meet together and pray and do something. 


[00:25:15] Gina: And if you don't have that, flee. 


[00:25:17] Ben: Correct. Distance is an important thing to maintain if you know nothing. Your ignorance in this particular situation will get you hurt. In some ways it protects you, but in this particular instance, you are choosing to act in ignorance. Choosing to act in ignorance is stupid in and of itself, by definition. 


[00:25:36] Gina: By operating on your own understanding, you're not operating within the armor of God. Correct. You are opening yourself up to things that will hurt you. 


[00:25:43] Ben: And I'm glad you brought up the armor of God here because that's actually another very critical point. You need to be fully equipped in the armor of God because you're in for the fight of your life. 


[00:25:53] It may not be something that is a literal fight. But it's spiritual warfare. 


[00:25:58] Gina: Satan and his minions do not want you to have success in Jesus name. So if you see something that you perceive to be demonic oppression or possession, and you are taking it upon yourself to handle it, and you're opening yourself up to be vulnerable without having the armor of God or the wise counsel, Spiritual warfare will come down on you and the person that you think you're trying to help. 


[00:26:24] It creates a domino effect of chaos and of devastation that you are not prepared for. It's not like playing with a Ouija board. 


[00:26:34] Ben: No, no, there are people who We'll frequently ask, okay, is there some kind of mystical chant? Do I need to use oil? What are, what are the, the processes for, for this? If, one, if you're asking those questions, you're asking the wrong questions. 


[00:26:47] Don't do it. Just don't. Flee. Yes, flee. As far as what you need to do, you aren't doing anything. It's not you. It was, it was never you. If you're asking about what's appropriate to do, if you have all of the prerequisites here, you have the people you know and love and who know and love the Lord, and this is on your doorstep and you need to handle it, is there something you have to do in order to convince God to cast the demon out? 


[00:27:12] No. You pray. 


[00:27:14] Gina: You don't have to talk him into it. 


[00:27:16] Ben: No. The idea is that you go in and you use the power of God. It's in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ I rebuke you. It's throughout the New Testament. People who weren't even Christians were using that. 


[00:27:29] Gina: Backfired. 


[00:27:30] Ben: Yes. In the instance of people who weren't Christians. 


[00:27:32] And that's one of the reasons why we say if you know nothing, if you're approaching this in the wrong spirit, if you're doing this in ignorance, flee. Don't bother. But if you're a grounded Christian and you, there are people who will just be afraid of this. Because there's reason to be nervous, but there are people who are experienced Christians who could very well do something who will stay out of it because they have no experience in it. 


[00:27:54] It's weird. It's creepy. It's spiritual, but they'll just not do anything. And it's not you. That's the whole point. It's not you. If God puts this on your doorstep, if you are an experienced Christian, you have people in your life who, you know, can help you and you can gather two or three. And in God's name, he will be there. 


[00:28:12] You can do something then. And the thing that you can do is let God in. 


[00:28:16] Gina: Just don't expect smoke to come out of people's ears and their eyes to roll back in their head and all kinds of movie theater style exorcism symptoms. What You would be doing would not necessarily look like anything you've ever seen before and I've never seen it But I'm saying that because we know people who are like I saw a demon Did you though? 


[00:28:39] Ben: No, no now as far as moving it out of possession because that's fairly rare 


[00:28:45] Mm hmm 


[00:28:45] Ben: and not something that most people would deal with as far as oppression. I'd say the same thing The exact same kind of thing. If you know nothing, if you're a fairly new Christian, if this is all new to you and you're approaching it in ignorance, don't. 


[00:28:57] Don't bother. Don't do anything. 


[00:28:58] Gina: Oppression is more common, and I think it makes it worse than possession, because we don't really see possession, especially in the church. Like, in the body of believers who are covered in the armor of God, possession doesn't happen. So if you're going to see it, it's going to be an outsider coming in. 


[00:29:16] But, if you are experiencing oppression, you can be in the body, in the armor of God and experience spiritual oppression. We've talked about that. 


[00:29:26] Ben: Yeah, it's when you were fighting. And there was a period where both of you guys were having, you know, really bad dreams. Yeah. Yeah. And I believe that was genuine demonic oppression on you guys. 


[00:29:38] And so 


[00:29:38] Gina: do we. 


[00:29:38] Ben: Yeah. And we prayed together. And so I, I don't know, I, from the few times I'd asked you guys after the fact, you weren't having dreams. And the only time that came back was like when the packages, and then you were getting the headaches and Cody started having the dreams again. And so, 


[00:29:52] Gina: And the day that the packages got taken, we got in a horrible car accident and then everything got better. 


[00:29:57] Ben: To me, it's the same kind of thing. We all got together when you guys told you guys basically told me that you knew it sounded crazy and I probably wouldn't believe you, but you were having dreams. No, obviously I believe you guys. And the reason I believe is because I've experienced similar things. I spent literally 30 years of my life dealing with this. 


[00:30:17] The thing 


[00:30:18] Gina: about the dreams is that Cody had never really believed in the demonic before that. And then he started having these dreams about demons, and he had sleep paralysis. And, like I shared earlier, like, when you're so scared that all you can do is say the name of Jesus because that's all you have in you, that's what happened to Cody. 


[00:30:37] I don't know if you want to share about that. 


[00:30:39] Cody: You pretty much summed it up there. I had sleep paralysis growing up, so I know what that is. But this was completely different. A dark shadow was hanging over me. I'm very confident in my sleep paralysis. cognitive position where I know if I'm dreaming or not dreaming, and I wasn't dreaming. 


[00:31:01] And it was, if you don't know what sleep paralysis is, you're basically awake, but your body still thinks you're sleeping and you can't move, but you're coherent and know what's going on in your surroundings. And that was happening to me, but there was this dark figure that carried on from my very vivid dream. 


[00:31:21] And again, grew up dreaming. Um, know the difference between a normal dream and something that's not normal. Again, very, 


[00:31:32] Gina: But you couldn't move. 


[00:31:33] Cody: I couldn't move. I couldn't speak. And it was a lot of effort to just mutter the name of Jesus and instantly could move again. Um, could 


[00:31:46] Gina: You didn't have to go back to sleep. 


[00:31:48] You were like, fine. 


[00:31:49] Cody: Yeah. I woke up, got some water, moved on and went back to bed. 


[00:31:54] Gina: Yeah. 


[00:31:55] Ben: But I think there's a really good lesson in there. And that for a long time, you guys were just struggling with that. And you thought I was going to think you were crazy. 


[00:32:03] Gina: You don't understand how many other people thought we were. 


[00:32:06] Cody: And that's, I didn't tell anybody else. I sound crazy when I speak about it. If I was myself, I wouldn't believe myself. So I will put that out there. If I was listening to myself as an objective third party, I wouldn't believe myself. But 


[00:32:21] Gina: we went to like seasoned Like, pastors and church leaders who had been in ministry for 60, 70 years, and we got told that it wasn't real, and that we were just dreaming it up, and that we shouldn't worry about it, and that we needed to lean in more and evangelize more to my family. 


[00:32:43] And we tried that, and everything kept getting worse. Like, the people that we went to couldn't help us. And that's why I say flee. We fled. We ran like hell to get away from that, because every time that it tries to reinsert itself in our lives, crazy stuff starts happening. And I don't know why she keeps trying to come back into my life because I've set very hard boundaries and there is no going back because of all the stuff that's happened. 


[00:33:15] But That, like, the demonic oppression that comes into our lives every time she tries to come back. I'm done. I'm running. Like, hell. 


[00:33:24] Ben: I think it's important to delineate. As we've just established here, it's very possible for believers to be demonically oppressed. And that's because that's the nature of fighting. 


[00:33:33] It's the nature of conflict. They are the enemy, and so they will attack you. And they will try to get any foothold that they possibly can. 


[00:33:39] Gina: And it's not that I'm saying my mom is a demon or my mom is possessed. My mom plays with fire and it rains on me too. 


[00:33:49] Ben: And that's why for oppression versus possession in a sense is much more simple, though it is dangerous. 


[00:33:58] The driving out of a demon that possesses somebody who let it in, like technically from what the Bible says, even non believers can do it, though it's very ill advised. It's very stupid. It's the power of Christ that drives them out, and ultimately, Christ is the one who has to save them after the fact. Or else, that house is empty, and can always be reoccupied. 


[00:34:18] As far as oppression, you have to figure out what's causing it. Because it doesn't come out of nowhere. And like you guys were saying, 


[00:34:25] Gina: It's influence. 


[00:34:26] Ben: It's influence. And it's not always obvious where that influence was. For myself, I struggled with it. for a very long time. And it was, it wasn't because of something that I did. 


[00:34:37] I was a little kid and I saw something and you can argue that I, I was just a little kid hallucinating something or whatever, but whatever it was that I saw, it followed me for my entire life. And it wasn't until a few years ago when I went through a period of fasting and prayer, I was finally free of it. 


[00:34:54] And I believe that the reason that the Lord let me go through that was to convince me of the fact that this isn't stupid. This isn't crazy. And to take it seriously when people come to me with this stuff. Or when I see people who are struggling with it. Because I think it is actually more common than we would like to believe. 


[00:35:11] Gina: We had our conversation, I think it was about a month ago, and we brought the guitar in here and prayed. And literally the very next day, we went to church and somebody came to me and asked for prayer because she was feeling like items in her home may have carried spiritual oppression to her because they were gifted to her from people that were spiritually oppressed. 


[00:35:34] And you had prayed for me to have confirmation from the Lord. That's what was going on. And the very next day I had somebody come to me saying, this is what's happening in my life and I don't know what to do, whether or not that was confirmation. I think it was, but I think it was confirmation that it's more about what's in my heart and how I'm protecting and defending my family and not feeling victimized by the person that is in influencing whatever spiritually over me, but I'm saved and I have the armor of God and I have the power of Christ living inside of me. 


[00:36:07] It's not my power, it's not my might, it's the Holy Spirit. And when we are, like, defending our families and protecting ourselves, we have to remember that. It's not our own understanding and it's not our own power. But thank you for praying because it has helped and your testimony has helped us and it's been very edifying to know that we can talk openly about these things together and not get treated like we're literally crazy. 


[00:36:34] Ben: When I know you guys well enough to know that you don't just say stuff because you feel like it or because your fevered imaginations have conjured something and you just want to talk about it. You're both actually fairly grounded people and you're grounded in very different ways. Cody, you tend to be much more practical and. 


[00:36:50] You like to walk through things in a logical process, and Gina, you're much more emotionally mature. You approach things from the emotional side, but it's through a seasoned, reasoned, emotional position. Where, yeah, through, through great, it's like the Bible says, through great effort and discernment, you've learned to separate right from wrong. 


[00:37:07] So when you both talk about stuff that's bothering you, that's spiritual in nature, but you can't talk to anyone about it, that's a great tragedy. And I see that as a pretty common thing in the church, where people can't talk to their pastors about this, because they know they'll just be told that they're crazy. 


[00:37:23] They feel like they're crazy. And that's one of the reasons why you know they're not. 


[00:37:28] Gina: That's a spiritual stronghold right there that the enemy keeps us boxed in thinking we're crazy, keeps us isolated, thinking that we can't reach out and get help. That's when fleeing is powerful. That's when using your voice with discernment is powerful and the enemy can whisper in your pastor's ear. 


[00:37:48] The enemy can influence people working in the church just as much as he can influence you and me. If we're getting whispers in our ear. Or we're doubting things spiritually. Why wouldn't our pastors also have those same things? We can't expect that church leaders are going to have all of the answers, but we can't lean on our own understanding. 


[00:38:12] Ben: Now, I do think that there is an important question that we need to address, and that's how do you know if you're dealing with demonic oppression versus just something like depression or some kind of mental health issue that's, you know, perfectly rational and explainable through physical means. 


[00:38:29] Gina: You have the scripture that says God gives us a spirit of sound mind. 


[00:38:33] God doesn't give us a spirit of fear other than the fear and trembling of our salvation. If you're feeling fearful, if you're feeling anxious, which we're warned not to focus on anxiety, if we're struggling with our sanity, those I think are obvious signs that are not from the Lord. And I would say at that point, you could evaluate it from an analytical It's not from God, so who's it from? 


[00:39:02] Cody: Definitely go into any situation with prayer, um, you know, asking where the feelings are coming from. Yeah. You know, if you're depressed, um, finding the root of that is very helpful, and if you're depressed for no reason, okay, you can rule out one aspect of therapy. 


[00:39:26] Gina: It's a process. I've been in therapy. You don't just get a therapist and instantly click. 


[00:39:31] You have to be so tenacious and, like, outspoken about your own well being, whether it's with a pastor or with a therapist. It's not just, oh, you're going to the doctor and they're going to prescribe you something and you're going to be all better. No. It's more nuanced than that. 


[00:39:46] Cody: Yeah. Prayer and seeking wise counsel in this situation, getting an outside opinion. 


[00:39:52] Gotta seek wise counsel. Prayer and seek wise counsel to diagnose. 


[00:39:58] Ben: Yeah, I watch a lot of Jordan Peterson videos, and he talks a lot about the different patients that he's had. And, you know, for a lot of these people, there will be an underlying issue. And it's very clear what the issue is. So there'll be a young man who'll come in and he has his life and it's completely fallen apart and he doesn't have a job and his room is a complete mess and then Jordan will ask him to just find one thing that he can do, just one thing to fix. 


[00:40:26] And start with the smallest possible step that he knows he will do. Sort a pair of socks. And it sounds silly, but if it's literally the only thing that the guy will do. He talked about one instance of, he asked the guy to vacuum his floor. And the guy literally put the vacuum In the threshold of his door, and then left it there, and was too lazy to either bring it all the way into his room, or put it away. 


[00:40:49] So he just kept stepping over it for the week between his visit to, to Dr. Peterson. And yeah, he felt ashamed, and he was like, yeah, I couldn't even bring myself to vacuum the floor. Can you at least put the vacuum back? And so yeah, you find the lowest thing that you could possibly do, and then slowly build your, your life up from there. 


[00:41:08] Slowly increasing the number of things that you can do until eventually all of the issues that you feel are insurmountable are fixed. That is where a lot of issues for people come from. It's you feel like you have so many issues in your life, and there's no way to address all of them, but through time and patience and effort, you'll get there. 


[00:41:25] And through what the Bible teaches you, you can address them. That in itself is, in a sense, spiritual warfare. But that's not demonic oppression. Where you find something like demonic oppression is a person who otherwise has their life completely together and then out of nowhere an issue arises. So one of the reasons I suspected that you guys had a legitimate case of demonic oppression was there's no reason for you guys to be struggling with what you were. 


[00:41:52] And the undertones behind the dreams that you guys were having were similar to things that I'd struggle with too. So part of it is wisdom. Part of it is personal experience and learning through the power of discernment, through the power of the spirit, to discern right from wrong or spirit from spirit. 


[00:42:09] And part of it is that you have to ask the question, where is this coming from? If it's coming from literally nowhere, it doesn't automatically mean that it's demonic oppression or it's spirit or whatever. Sometimes there are instances issues that come out of left field. But a good indication really is, where is this coming from? 


[00:42:28] If you can't figure out where on earth any of this is coming from, it's possible that it is spiritual warfare. And at the same time, if you can pinpoint where it's coming from, then the question is, okay, what is this source? And Gina, you've talked a lot about how your mom was involved in the occult. Once you start bringing the occult and things that are clearly spiritually evil into the equation? 


[00:42:49] Then you do have to suspect it. There are a lot of people who will immediately hear that. Oh, you talk about witches. You're burning Yeah, it's throwing them into the lakes and if they sink they're a witch and if they flow if they're 


[00:43:00] Gina: left handed. 


[00:43:01] Ben: Yeah We get it. There's superstition. Absolutely. 


[00:43:05] Gina: No, but what I was connected with wasn't superstitious It was evil and it was chaotic like I think it's funny because a lot of people that I've talked to about my experience, they think that the word occult signifies some sort of organized crime almost. 


[00:43:23] And it's not like that. It's so chaotic and just craziness. And that's another good indicator of what it is. If it's super chaotic, and it comes out of left field, it could be mental health, but if it's like an established, stable person, like you said, and this chaos just appears, I would evaluate carefully. 


[00:43:45] One thing that I wanted to mention too, along the lines of psychology is if you have like past trauma because that's something Cody and I have had a lot of education on through foster care training and then also through ministry training, there's like a quiz you can take just in the privacy of your own home to evaluate your personal past trauma. 


[00:44:06] It's called the ACEs test or quiz. And it will help you evaluate your markers for childhood trauma based on your responses to questions for things you might think are normal that aren't necessarily normal. And that can help you identify if you have an unmet psychological need as opposed to spiritual warfare that is demonic. 


[00:44:29] Because, Cody, I don't know if you want to share, but 


[00:44:33] Cody: No, definitely. I'll share on this one, and like, where there's a difference, and why seeking wise counsel, or knowing the root of what the cause is very important. Because we were going through the foster care training, and I was abused by my father growing up, and like, I had come to terms with that, and thought I was good. 


[00:44:53] But then we go into this foster care training, where you're, Role playing certain situations and they're depicting what these kids go through to get into foster care and that hit me like a ton of bricks coming to the realization that my childhood was a lot worse than I was giving it credit for. And I am not an emotional person at all. 


[00:45:18] Gina jokes all the time that I only have one emotion, but I was just brought to tears and that's not like me at all. And obviously. Pretty easy to connect the dots there of where that trauma and, um, issue was laying, but that's why I think it's important to know the root. Stuff comes up. Yeah. 


[00:45:40] Gina: Stuff comes up from the past and I have to remember, this is trauma, not demonic. 


[00:45:47] Cody: And I was, like, depressed after that for quite some time, just dealing with it. And it wasn't, like, spiritual oppression, it was just trauma from my past that 


[00:45:58] Gina: Processed. 


[00:45:59] Cody: Processed, came back up. So, okay, gotta deal with this now, finally, and 


[00:46:04] Gina: Like you mentioned, we bury stuff, and then it comes back. We pay for it. 


[00:46:10] Ben: And oddly enough, even with that, having a group of people in your life who you love and who you respect to be able to talk with about this stuff is incredibly important. It's incredibly powerful. If I could just say one thing and someone take that to the bank. It's to grow with a group of people who you love and respect, to find a group of people, to find a Bible study, to find a handful of people who are at your level or maybe a bit higher to try to shoot for someone who is further along in their journey to try to shepherd you and help you. 


[00:46:42] Gina: We have episodes that will teach you how to do those things if you're interested. So look back at our older episodes because we give you advice. 


[00:46:49] Cody: Absolutely. And don't hide behind being an introvert. I've caught myself as, Oh, I'm an introvert. That's why I don't talk to people. Or that's why I don't go do this. 


[00:47:01] I'm just inner introverted. That's who I am. And 


[00:47:04] Gina: there's that song that we like, it's called show me what it means by land of color. And he says, I spoke in tongues. but did I love and I love that because you and I pursue a lot of Bible spiritual things, but then we're like, but I'm an introvert, so I'm going to stay home and we haven't shared that love with other people and we have to, we need to, we must, because we've grown the most, we've been encouraged the most, we've been edified the most, we've helped the most, we've been helped the most by being in community. 


[00:47:41] Cody: To all the super analytical introverts out there, amassing knowledge for yourself and doing nothing with it is Gnosticism at its core. If you're doing nothing with what you're learning and you're just trying to get to higher knowledge, then you're not doing anything good. 


[00:48:00] Ben: And a certain level of discomfort is actually necessary for all of us. 


[00:48:04] If you feel absolutely no discomfort in anything that you're doing, And clearly, you're not a threat to the enemy. Clearly you're not doing anything worth doing. 


[00:48:14] Gina: And if you're getting attacked, don't you dare turn around. 


[00:48:18] Cody: That's so good. That's such a good point. Cause, and I probably sound like an old man, but like in basketball, they always said, if you're not pushing yourself to failure or lifting weights, if you're not pushing yourself to failure, then you're not growing. 


[00:48:34] If you're comfortable, you're not growing, you're not getting better. It's the same in our spiritual journey. Absolutely. 


[00:48:43] Gina: If you give up, he's won. That's what he wants. 


[00:48:48] Ben: And remember, the victory isn't yours. It's the Lord's just because you're weak doesn't mean that you're going to fail. And it's like you mentioned before Cody, when there was that instance where you felt paralyzed and you were lying in bed and all you could do was speak the name of Jesus, there was nothing you could do. 


[00:49:05] Cody: Oh, and it was a struggle to get that out, like I couldn't even, I was just like barely uttered the word Jesus and there is power in his name. I will say that. But you're 


[00:49:16] Gina: not leaning on that as your magical, 


[00:49:19] Ben: I don't 


[00:49:20] Gina: know, abracadabra. 


[00:49:21] Ben: It's not a magic word. It's not bibbidi bobbidi boo. It's not, it isn't magic. 


[00:49:27] However, there are times where literally all you can do, you're driven into a corner, you have no power, no ace up your sleeve, nothing left to give, and all you can do is cry out to Jesus. Clamavi de profundus, from the depths I cry out. There are times where we are so badly beaten down and oppressed and there's nothing we can do but cry out. 


[00:49:47] And in those instances, God let you get to that point so that you would cry out to him. And in those instances, you will find he answers. 


[00:49:56] Gina: Our dependence is essential to our relationship with God. If we ever put ourselves at his level or higher, we've totally failed. And I think that's the key to not just spiritual warfare and the demonic, but also just the relationship. 


[00:50:14] We have to keep ourselves in perspective because we are not the point. Thank you so much for taking the time to listen to our podcast today. If you liked what you heard, please feel free to subscribe and share and leave a positive review. And if you would like to connect with us on social media, you can do so on Instagram and Facebook at the logic of God. 


[00:50:35] You can also send us an email at main dot the logic of God at gmail. com. Thanks again for listening. We hope you have a great day.