What Is Heaven?

[00:00:00] Cody: Hi, thank you for tuning in to the Logic of God podcast. I'm Cody. 

[00:00:15] Gina: I'm Gina. 

[00:00:16] Cody: And I'm Ben. If you're returning, thank you for coming back. And if you are a new guest, welcome.

[00:00:35] Ben: At this point, we've covered angels and demons. So, we figured It would make the most sense to move from that to heaven and hell. First we wanted to cover heaven. So what would be the kind of modern understanding, the common culture depiction of heaven? Like when you say heaven, the first thing that jumps into your head.

[00:00:53] Gina: Puffy white clouds and little angel chair, a baby flying around and somewhere, maybe there's like a throne room. 

[00:01:01] Cody: The bearded white man sitting up in the clouds. 

[00:01:05] Gina: With dogs, all the dogs. 

[00:01:07] Cody: And I think that's a cartoon from the 90s, All Dogs Go to Heaven. I know, 

[00:01:12] Gina: but I loved that show, and literally when I think about heaven, I think about dogs now.

[00:01:17] Cody: It was a movie first, guys. Come on. Yeah. That's what I meant by show. 

[00:01:22] Gina: I literally drew in elementary school, like we had to make these greeting cards ourselves, and I literally drew. A eight year old depiction of that movie as all dogs go to heaven. And that was the card. And my mom ordered 250 of those cards before she knew what they said.

[00:01:40] Ben: Yeah. 

[00:01:43] Gina: I think about dogs every time I think about heaven because of that. 

[00:01:47] Ben: It's actually something we might want to cover. Are our pets going to heaven? We can cover that somewhere in here. Yeah. But yeah, it's, there's this kind of image that people get of what's up in the clouds. There's like these big gates and St.

[00:02:01] Peter's there and there's a long line of people just waiting to get in. And Peter's got the 

[00:02:06] Gina: DMV. 

[00:02:06] Ben: Yeah, basically like the DMV and everyone's got these white robes on. There are these angels flying around that look like babies that have got these harps that they're just playing. God really likes harp music.

[00:02:16] I don't know. And yeah. Is any of that. Is any of that true to what the Bible says? 

[00:02:23] Gina: I don't know, I guess we'll figure it out. 

[00:02:25] Ben: I suppose so. I think the first thing we should cover is what exactly is heaven? What do we mean when we say heaven? 

[00:02:32] Gina: We'll start with facts, and then I think maybe go into opinion a little bit more.

[00:02:37] Ben: Sounds good. 

[00:02:37] Gina: Yeah. There's a couple of dictionary definitions. Oxford defines heaven as a place regarded in various religions as the abode of God or the gods and the angels, and of all the good after death, often traditionally depicted as being above the sky. And then Webster says, The dwelling place of the deity and the blessed dead.

[00:03:00] A spiritual state of everlasting communion with God. 

[00:03:04] Ben: Of those two definitions, do we feel like both of them work? Does only one of them work? Do neither of them work? 

[00:03:10] Gina: I have an opinion, but I don't know if it aligns with any of those definitions. 

[00:03:15] Cody: As far as the more biblically accurate one, I'd say the Webster's Dictionary is more biblically accurate.

[00:03:21] Um, but I think both of those honestly are what most people think of when they think of heaven. 

[00:03:29] Ben: I would definitely agree. I think the Webster definition definitely gets a lot closer to it, at the very least the spirit of what we mean when we say heaven, eternal communion with God. Amen. But neither one is specifically wrong.

[00:03:41] And I think the Oxford Dictionary definition is much more an outsider's view, attempting to just remove all bias and, because there are a lot of different religions and philosophies that have the concept of heaven. So they're just trying to encompass all of that, where I think Webster is talking more about the Christian, Jewish, or, uh, Islamic version of heaven.

[00:04:02] So, what does the Bible say about heaven? 

[00:04:04] Gina: I'm just reading through the Hebrew word. Is it shamayim? 

[00:04:11] Ben: So, in the Bible, the word, the Hebrew word that's given for heaven is shamayim, which is either like water, or a dry wind, or the heights. There seems to be a lot of debate on what exactly. The word is like where it came from and what the roots really come together to mean I think like water makes the most sense because when it's first given it's in context with Genesis and then there's the waters and the land So like water makes sense because in part heavens are referring to the clouds, but we'll get to that in a little bit So in Genesis 1 1 it says in the beginning God created the heavens or the firmament 

[00:04:52] Gina: the firmament 

[00:04:53] Ben: Yes, and the earth.

[00:04:54] So what is the firmament? 

[00:04:56] Gina: Cody, Cody did this really funny. Okay. Cody, you watched this, like, movie about it, about something, and Oh, 

[00:05:05] Cody: just super conspiracy theorists, like, the firmament, kept saying that, and the ether. Good friend Marvin sent it to me, asked me to watch. Good ol Marvin. Spent two hours of my life that I'll never get back on this conspiracy theory of the firmament and the ether.

[00:05:24] how all the old churches and windows are really ways to channel this, uh, ether. I think they called it ether. I can't remember what it was, but he said the firmament like 150 times throughout this video. Every time he 

[00:05:39] Gina: said it was like this ominous, 

[00:05:42] Cody: that was bad. 

[00:05:43] Gina: What is the firmament? Firmament. Firmament.

[00:05:46] Ben: The firmament. 

[00:05:47] Gina: What is it? 

[00:05:49] Ben: The atmosphere. Honestly, there's been a lot of people trying to take this word firmament and take it to mean something crazy. There's one guy I heard was talking about how the firmament is actually like a sphere of water that borders the entire universe, and it consists of the universe's borders.

[00:06:08] There are some people who are like, the firmament is actually a layer of like quasi ice that existed before the flood, and then that collapsed, or it was a layer of water in the atmosphere. Yeah, there's a lot of Claims like that for me. I don't see any issue with just saying it's clouds like God God created the heavens everything in the sky So he created the clouds and he created the atmosphere He created the stars in the sky and he created the earth in the beginning.

[00:06:34] Cody: Yeah I have no problem with that, but I'm not a flat earther like everything, everybody you just described. 

[00:06:41] Ben: That not all of that falls into flat earthers, but there's also the thought that by God created the heavens and the earth, that means that God created heaven with the angels and everything. And he created the earth.

[00:06:55] So, it's very clear throughout the rest of the Genesis story, which we'll get to in a little bit, that God did create the stars in the sky and the sun and the moon and whatnot. And he created the atmosphere around the earth and the clouds in the sky. But, did he make the heaven where he resides, too? At the beginning.

[00:07:14] Cody: It's a tough question because you can go down lots of rabbit holes. Where did he reside before he created the heavens then? 

[00:07:22] Gina: He hovered. That's 

[00:07:23] Cody: it. Over the waters. 

[00:07:25] Ben: Technically he wouldn't have needed a place to reside. He's eternal from everlasting to everlasting. He's not required to be in a singular place.

[00:07:35] He's not required to be in a singular time. And so the idea is it seems like heaven is in some way bound by time. Not that it has to be, but that time progresses, that events happen in heaven. So it seems like time has to exist in heaven. God isn't bound by time, so it would make sense that God created this place, heaven, With the angels at the very beginning along with earth and that was when he created time itself So, it's tough.

[00:08:02] We'll get into that a little bit more later, and it's just an interesting thing to bring up now since we just started with the firmament. But yeah, in Genesis 1. 8, it says, God called the expanse heaven, and there was evening and there was morning the second day. Genesis 1. 14 says, And God said, Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night.

[00:08:24] And let them be signs for the seasons and for days of years, Genesis 1 20 says, and God said, let the water swarm with swarms of living creatures and let the birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the heavens. So here you get a separation. At this point, we've been talking about heavens in terms of the sky, the stars, the sun, the moon, but now it's talking about birds flying in the heavens.

[00:08:46] Then there's Genesis 1 28. And God blessed them, and God said to them, Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the heavens, and over every living thing that moves on earth. It seems like when the Bible says heaven or heavens, it's using a plural.

[00:09:06] It's referring to, basically, there's our, the air above us, where the birds fly. There's the clouds in the sky, because there was a separation of water from water. I actually didn't include that verse in here, but it's the verse. I don't remember exactly, but it's let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water.

[00:09:23] And that's the clouds. So that's another expanse that is the heavens. So yeah, you have the sun, moon, and stars in the heavens. You have our atmosphere, the heavens, the clouds, the heavens, the air above our heads, and then the birds flying in the air above us, which is the heaven. So basically it seems like the heavens.

[00:09:44] It is just a way of saying everything above us and beyond us, including the place where God resides. So I can see why a lot of people in the past would look at the clouds and think that's where God resides. Really, that's not what it's saying. But that does bring up a good question. So where exactly is heaven, as in the place where God lives?

[00:10:02] Gina: In the book of Revelation, it tells you exactly where heaven is. Where is it? It's hidden. It's not known exactly what the location is. We know what, we know that it is, but we don't have a spaceship that can hunt it down and go there. Sure, 

[00:10:23] Ben: but by the same stroke, no one knows where my stash of exotic cheeses is either.

[00:10:27] Oh my god. But we could find it. Yeah, presumably, if you were to have an eternity and enough shovels. And enough sniffer dogs, you could eventually find my stash of good smoked Gouda. But, sure, something could be hidden, but is it in physical space? If you were to pick a direction in the sky and had an infinite amount of time and traveled, could you eventually get to heaven?

[00:10:47] It's above the stars, 

[00:10:48] Cody: wherever that is. 

[00:10:49] Ben: So where 

[00:10:49] Cody: are you getting that from? I think it's in Isaiah. Did you put that on the outline? 

[00:10:53] Ben: Oh yeah, you did. I was a 

[00:10:55] Cody: good boy! Oh, that's in Psalms too. 

[00:11:00] Gina: Oh, I see. 

[00:11:01] Cody: No, just in Isaiah and Ezekiel. 

[00:11:04] Ben: It's in a few places, but we'll cover that. So yeah, there are a few places, like you said, Cody, where it says that his throne is beyond the stars, but let's go into them.

[00:11:11] You mentioned Isaiah. 

[00:11:12] Cody: Yeah, Isaiah 14, 13. So God's throne is above the stars. 

[00:11:26] Ben: And there's also a mention in Ezekiel, which we covered when talking about, uh, angels. 

[00:11:32] Gina: It's possible though. That type of story from scripture is like individual expression or like vision, but not necessarily literal heaven.

[00:11:44] Ben: There's also another verse in Psalms chapter 93 verse 2. Your throne is established from of old, you are from everlasting. This could imply that. God's throne heaven is eternal as he is so it is from everlasting to everlasting thus heaven is existed for all eternity But I don't know that's what Psalms is saying there.

[00:12:06] Gina: No, I think it's his authority that they're referring to I 

[00:12:09] Ben: agree To be fair, I do think that Isaiah is actually pretty clear there, and that it's saying that his throne is above the stars, that heaven itself is beyond the stars. And when we talk about Ezekiel chapter 1, which talks about the four living creatures that are the wheels within wheels, with the eyes all over and the wings, and his throne is set upon them.

[00:12:31] What we talked about before, and I looked into some other commentaries, it seems like that really is the way it's generally taken. That is effectively saying that God's throne is above the heavens. That the four living creatures could represent angels, but more or less they're representing all of creation.

[00:12:45] You know, the wheels within wheels, the eyes being like stars. And so it's saying that his throne is above all creation. And that he is everywhere and sees everything and that makes sense to me. 

[00:12:55] Gina: It also makes sense from the grand scheme of just space, like outer space is so vast to have it, it be with the stars and everything like that's a large quantity of space.

[00:13:09] Ben: And the idea that's basically just the wheels on his chair. Like that's a fascinating thought to me. 

[00:13:14] Gina: So above the stars, cool, still super vague. 

[00:13:19] Ben: I think the idea is that it's just, it's not in physical space. You're not going to find it anywhere. And so this idea that if you were to just go up into the clouds and look around for a bit, you'd find it.

[00:13:30] Or that people in ancient times were just silly people and thought, yeah, God's just up in the clouds. That's not what the Bible teaches and that may be the way that some people took it, but that's not what the Bible actually says. 

[00:13:42] Gina: This is a total side note, but do you think anybody will ever track down the cherubim blocking the doorway to Eden?

[00:13:49] Ben: No, I think that's the reason they're guarding it. Like the idea is that they're guards. So if they're decent guards, then no one's going to find them. 

[00:13:58] Cody: Well, in like the instance with the donkey and Balaam, like they had to make themselves known too. I think they can hide in plain sight if they want 

[00:14:14] Ben: to.

[00:14:14] Yeah. Now, there is a, a counterpoint to this idea. If heaven isn't in the universe or in physical space or in the clouds, then why was it that Jesus rose up into the sky? But when he was leaving and he was telling his disciples that he was going to prepare a place for them Like he went up into the sky. 

[00:14:32] Cody: I think there's multiple connections I think they're connecting the son of man and Daniel in the clouds, but also I think Being an Ascension I think gives that thought a little bit more meaning 

[00:14:46] Gina: I Agree, I don't have a lot of thoughts on that.

[00:14:49] Ben: There are a few things there one is I agree with you 100 percent Cody it's it meant something and And There is the verse in Isaiah about him coming in the clouds with glory and honor and power. And so he said, and the angels said, sorry, the angels there said, why do you keep looking at after him? One day he will come back the same way you saw him leave.

[00:15:11] So He could have just snapped his fingers and wiped away. In fact, he did that a number of times where he just disappeared from amongst the disciples. Another thing is that there were actually not just the 12 disciples there. Supposedly, there were dozens, if not hundreds of people there who are all looking at Christ and witnessing his ascension, rising up so that everyone can see you in an undeniable way where it's not just he's there one second and then gone.

[00:15:35] That's a powerful thing. 

[00:15:36] Gina: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was just thinking that too, like with him returning, it's going to be interesting to see how all believers could even possibly see him at the same time when he comes back, like without him descending. We're done. 

[00:15:56] Ben: That's it. Okay. So jumping from that point. What does heaven look like?

[00:16:01] Does the Bible tell us? 

[00:16:03] Cody: Yeah, there's lots of different depictions of what heaven's going to be like from a visual standpoint. But it is all, gosh, what's the appropriate term? It's all poetic description. 

[00:16:18] Ben: Yeah, I think mainly the imagery that we get of heaven comes from Revelation. And I think there are a lot of people who see the description of New Jerusalem.

[00:16:28] Yeah. And that's actually where we get a lot of the imagery that you see of heaven, of people talking about streets paved with gold, and the pearly gates, and whatnot, that actually comes from, let's see, Revelation chapter 21, verses 11 through 14. Having the glory of God, its radiance like a most rare jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal.

[00:16:48] It had a great high wall with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels. And on the gates, the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel were inscribed. On the east three gates, on the north three gates, on the south three gates, and on the west three gates. And on the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

[00:17:12] It goes on to talk about, like, streets being, Paved with gold as pure as glass. So most of the descriptions that we hear in modern culture and see of heaven, it's actually the New Jerusalem. So this is a place that doesn't exist yet. When Jesus says, I go to prepare a place for you, this is the place he's preparing.

[00:17:31] And when he returns, this is the world he's going to create. This isn't how heaven actually is, unless you assume that the New Jerusalem is basically a version of the heaven that exists, which honestly could be true. You But, that's not specifically what we're told. Are there any descriptions that we know are specifically of heaven?

[00:17:50] Gina: I made a list. 

[00:17:51] Ben: Alright, go for it. 

[00:17:52] Gina: I put the names of heaven in scripture, like the different describing words. There's the Father's house, home, paradise, the city, the kingdom of Christ and God, the heavenly Jerusalem, the kingdom of heaven, the eternal kingdom, and the better country. Those are all in scripture, in different places, describing heaven or naming heaven without saying the word heaven.

[00:18:17] Ben: Mm hmm. Yeah, there are definitely a lot of different words that describe what it is, but there are, are there any places that describe it? From a visual sense. 

[00:18:25] Gina: John 14, two in my father's house are many rooms in Hebrews 11, 10. It talks about the city and its foundations. So it gives vague ideas of what it could look like, but it's not like you can't paint a mental picture with those descriptions.

[00:18:44] I think culturally back then, there's probably context that we're missing that would probably help us visualize it better. But. It's hard to imagine many gates, and if I hadn't actually been to Jerusalem myself, I wouldn't know what that was talking about. 

[00:19:00] Cody: The only time in scripture that I can think of that there might be some inclination to what heaven looks like now is in most of the prophet stories when they're called to heaven.

[00:19:12] by God, they have this courtroom setting, which we've talked about before, this kind of throne room of God, where they'll either prostrate before God and commission him like Isaiah. It's where his, he touches his lips and they're like fire. And you have this throne room setting or this assembly, divine council, whatever you want to call it setting where there's this throne room at their end.

[00:19:36] And that's really, I think the only. repeated depiction of what you could potentially say heaven's like because it's a repeated theme throughout scripture and it's where God is now, which would be 

[00:19:49] Ben: heaven. I do think that there was, there is the chapter four in revelation that kind of does expound on that, which is one of the reasons why I do think that While Revelation chapter four, there's a lot of symbology in there.

[00:20:03] I do think some of it is representative of heaven and it goes into talking about the 24 thrones with the 24 elders and the four living creatures. And that kind of expands off of what we're told in Ezekiel and also what we're told in stories like in Job and in first Kings. So ultimately we're not told really what it looks like.

[00:20:23] We're told that there is a throne and that there are other thrones there. And we were also told in other places like where people ask if they can sit at the right and left hand of Jesus. So presumably you could do that. In order for you to do that, there have to be thrones. But we're given the image of a throne where God rests and then thrones on either side where there are 24 elders.

[00:20:46] We're told of living creatures who praise God day and night. We're told of seven golden lampstands, which also may be symbolic. So there may not even be lampstands there. One of the interesting things here is that you'll notice that in all the descriptions of heaven that we are specifically given, we're not told about what, where we will be.

[00:21:04] We're told about where God is. So that really does beg the question. Okay, so is there a separate heaven that we're a part of? Are we all going to be there? Is this just like the place where God is and we're going to be separate from him or are we going to be there with him? 

[00:21:19] Gina: Depends on your interpretation.

[00:21:22] I know what I believe, but I don't know that you would necessarily agree. And I don't know that there's necessarily scripture to back it up, but it just depends on personal interpretation. I think we all have to be okay with agreeing to disagree or not knowing. That's the hard part about Christianity to me is you know where you're going because you're told where you're going to go, but you don't really know anything about it.

[00:21:45] And you're told that it's perfect and wonderful and there's no sin and there's no crying and there's no sickness, but then you don't really know what you're going to do there. 

[00:21:54] Ben: The Bible says that we'll worship Him forever and ever. And when I was young, I'll admit, I thought, That sounds really dumb.

[00:22:00] That's terrible. I'm just going to stand there singing all the time? That sounds really boring. And is God really going to be happy with me doing that? But the truth is that we worship God through what we do. In addition to, you know, praise and worship. We're using our talents to honor him. So when it says we're worshiping him always, it means that he's going to have the proper place in our lives and at the center of everything that we do.

[00:22:24] Now, as far as whether or not we're all going to be there with him, that's tough to say. We're really not told. We'll get into that in a little bit. So I think we can put a pin in that for now. As far as Jewish tradition for heaven, It does segment heaven into several different little, I guess you could call them domains.

[00:22:43] So there's like Vedon, that's the place where the sun is. Rahia, and that's the place where the moon, the stars, and the planets are. And it's also where the sunlight shines. Shehakim, and then that's where there are the millstones. where they make the manna for the pious. I don't know if God made that specifically to make manna or what.

[00:23:02] I don't know the context for that. There's Zabul in which resides upper Jerusalem along with the temple and the altar. And it's also the place according to tradition where Michael, the chief angel prince offers sacrifices. Maon where the angel of ministry is located. They are said to sing at night, and are silent during the day for the sake of the honor of Israel.

[00:23:26] A lot of this is confusing. Mekon, which contains the treasuries of snow, hail, and chambers of noxious dews. It also houses the receptacles of water, the chamber of wind, and the cave of mist, whose doors are of fire. There's Araboth, uh, where justice, judgment, and righteousness reside. It also contains the treasuries of life, of peace and of blessing, the soul of the righteous, and the spirits and souls of those who are to be born in the future.

[00:23:55] That's that seventh heaven seems to be where we go when we die and where we go before we are born. So God creates the souls that are going to go down to earth. 

[00:24:04] Gina: Now, this is not biblical, right? 

[00:24:05] Ben: Correct. This is not even remotely biblical. None of this is explicitly said in the Bible, but this is taught as part of Jewish tradition.

[00:24:12] I don't know how many Jews actually believe this as is. There's probably plenty of discussion and debate about this amongst the Jews, just like there is amongst the Christians in terms of what heaven is. But this is what I could find in terms of what But, like, central Jewish tradition is, as taught by the Talmud.

[00:24:29] I don't know if the book of Enoch says anything to this effect, supposedly in the third book of Enoch it mentions this. 

[00:24:35] Cody: Even in one Enoch, like, this is very Enochian literature, um, I can't quote anything, but, um, especially, um. like the sixth layer there, the chamber of wind, the hail snow, like there's different sections and chambers that house these things.

[00:24:52] I think that's towards the end, like 60 through 90. I can't remember. It was, this is very 

[00:24:58] Ben: Enochian 

[00:24:58] Cody: literature 

[00:24:59] Ben: sounding. Yeah. And this is where the idea of seven heavens come from. I don't know if we have any people who grew up in the nineties, there was the show seventh heaven. You probably have heard the term before.

[00:25:09] Um, this is that concept, the idea of seven heavens. Now, I'm not a huge fan of this setup of heaven, in part because there's a strange overlap between spiritual heavens and non spiritual heavens, and some of these spiritual heavens have strange physical implications. But to be fair, that's always been the way that it's been looked at.

[00:25:31] It was believed that angels were involved in the motion of the stars for a very long time. So, it's not surprising that this is a part of Jewish tradition. It's just One, I would like it to actually be in the Bible if we're going to talk about it seriously. And it definitely isn't. And two, part of it just seems fairly superstitious to me.

[00:25:51] And maybe that's unfair. It could just be because this is, you know, 

[00:25:54] Cody: stuff I didn't grow up with. I think that's fair. Like, just reading these in depth now of what you put on the outline, it's like, Zubel, what was Michael sacrificing? Like, what was he sacrificed? Sacrificed 

[00:26:07] Gina: lambs to Mary. No? 

[00:26:09] Cody: But Mary would have only been, I guess she could have been in the seventh heaven, so maybe.

[00:26:14] What, but, so are there 

[00:26:16] Ben: herds of cattle in heaven? Yeah, that's as the spiritual cattle are they not real cattle that's 

[00:26:21] Cody: what I was like, how what is he sacrificing there? Sorry Like that's what jumped out to me reading these is okay. What's Michael sacrificing? 

[00:26:31] Ben: Yeah, I don't know I'd have to go into more depth Sadly, this is it's not something that's very easy to research.

[00:26:39] There's not a whole lot of Attempts to compile this in such a way where people outside of the Jewish faith are going to understand it So I'd have to do some more deep dives into the Talmud and actually try to parcel it all together But that's just a kind of general overview of the seven heavens at least as far as Jewish tradition in Christian tradition We're not again, it's not explicitly stated how heaven is or how it works or anything But it seems like in the Bible the world is split basically into three separate heavens You So, there's the Earth's clouds and atmosphere, then there's the universe, the broad universe where there's stars in the sky, and then there's the third heaven, or paradise, where God lives.

[00:27:18] And we get that from 2 Corinthians 12, verses 2 through 4, where Paul says, I know a man in Christ who 14 years ago, whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, only God knows, such a man was caught up to the third heaven. And I know how such a man, whether in the body or apart from the body, I do not know, God knows, was caught up into paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak.

[00:27:45] So in there, Paul specifically talks about the third heaven and referring to paradise. Again, he could actually be talking about the traditional understanding, but just slapping a new label on the third heaven here, but that is what? Yes. The third heaven is Shehakim, which would be where the millstones that produce mana is.

[00:28:07] So, I don't think Paul is talking about getting caught up into the place where there's the production of mana, and he saw inexpressible things, and he called that paradise. Moreover, this is the same word that Jesus uses where he says, I tell, truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise. So, they were gonna go and, Grind up some mana together on that day like it seems to me that Paul is referring to something entirely different where he's saying There's the third heaven the actual heaven and I went up there or this man who he's talking about Went up there and saw inexpressible things No one's permitted to tell and that makes sense to me and honestly that seems to be a much more coherent position to me where there's, okay, there's our atmosphere, that's one heaven.

[00:28:49] Then there's the universe broadly, that's the second heaven. And then there's the realm beyond that, which is where God lives. That makes sense to me. But that doesn't mean that's what Paul meant. And that is the more general interpretation I saw, but there are other interpretations, but I've been talking for a while.

[00:29:07] What do you guys think? 

[00:29:08] Cody: No, again, it's all speculation. I think on this point, I don't think there is true, definitive biblical information on this. Even like the Talmud, if you guys don't know what that is, it's basically a commentary compiled by, um, Old Jewish rabbis, not the Bible, not really a whole lot to do with the Bible.

[00:29:30] You have the mention here in second Corinthians, but that's about it on layers of heaven. And there's a lot of speculation on what people believe behind this one. But 

[00:29:41] Ben: what's frustrating is that it's very clear. Paul knew what he was talking about, but he doesn't explain what he was talking about. He knows what he meant by third heaven.

[00:29:50] We don't. We can, like you said, Cody, we can make some assumptions. And we can make some inferences, but we don't truly know. 

[00:29:57] Cody: Yeah, I think the big one there is paradise. Like, I like that you put Eden there. I think there's a lot of connection. Um, you know, when Jesus mentions being in paradise and Paul here mentions being in paradise, uh, there's a lot of connection back to that Eden story and what God intended life to be like.

[00:30:18] pre sin. So there's connection there. There's a lot of good garden connection actually, because after Jesus rises for the first time, he's mistaken for a gardener. And there's a lot of cool connection with that and claiming his kinghood because kings used to have gardens and rich people could only really manage gardens.

[00:30:41] So there are a lot of cool connections there. Absolutely. 

[00:30:44] Ben: And I think just calling it paradise is actually very helpful. We don't need a whole lot of descriptors about what it is. We know one, that there is God's throne. And so God rules from heaven. And we also know that it is paradise. It is according to the word used there in Greek, Gan Eden.

[00:31:02] It's the same word that Jesus used for paradise. So it's supposed to be a beautiful place. It's a perfect place untouched by sin. It's pure and that's where we're going. You don't need to know much more than that. It's where God is and that's where eventually you will be. Now, there are probably different.

[00:31:19] In fact, there most likely are a lot of different aspects to heaven. And that kind of leads into the next question. Do we go to heaven immediately after we die? Is there a waiting place as a part of heaven? Hmm. Cause that's the tough thing, cause there could be a place in heaven where you wait that's still going to heaven, but there could be a place separate from heaven where you wait, but it's not heaven, but it's like a heavenly place.

[00:31:44] That's like heaven, but not. 

[00:31:46] Cody: This is a tough one because this, everybody's lost somebody that they loved and everybody likes to think that everybody just goes straight to heaven and is in perfect bliss 

[00:31:58] Gina: or like watching over you or. 

[00:32:01] Cody: Yeah. Peeking 

[00:32:02] Gina: down over the clouds, staring down at you. 

[00:32:04] Cody: So this touches people very personally when you talk about this subject.

[00:32:09] So it's hard to do that delicately. Agreed. And you should do it delicately, but to me, I believe it's more of a waiting place pre heaven, so to speak, where we are in like a happy place. bliss type of thing. And we talked about it before the podcast is this Abraham's bosom type of terminology that is popular in Jewish tradition.

[00:32:35] And even looking at Jewish tradition, even what the disciples thought of heaven before was not like this place where you go to be with God immediately. They were aware of resurrection and what that meant. But even when Jesus was Telling them about what was going to happen, the idea that he would die and then be resurrected.

[00:32:56] They couldn't really grasp that and that he would do it before everybody else. They didn't really get that. They thought it was more of a community event as well. The second coming of what a lot of people believe. 

[00:33:09] Gina: If we're waiting for judgment the way that Revelation describes. And heaven is the prize after the judgment.

[00:33:17] I don't see personally how we could go straight to heaven when we die since the rapture hasn't happened. 

[00:33:24] Ben: So that's the big question. Is heaven the ultimate prize? 

[00:33:27] Gina: Do you want me to just lay it out on the table and tell you what I think? Sure. Because I, I believe that we die and we wait. And then once Jesus comes back, we get judged.

[00:33:40] And if we're judged that we have been saved, then we will go to heaven. And then we will go to the new earth. That's what I believe. It's hard to piece it all together in a way that makes sense with the little tiny bit that we have in scripture, reassuring us on these things, but that's what I believe. 

[00:33:58] Cody: No, and I think there's scripture to back that up.

[00:34:01] Jacob talks about mourning Joseph when he still thought Joseph was dead and eaten by wild animals, about mourning him down to Sheol. Sheol's usually directly translated to Hades, but there needs to be a separation here from Hades and what hell is, and we'll talk more about that in the next episode. But Sheol and Hades is not necessarily the eternal conscious torment that you realize until judgment happens.

[00:34:32] Gina: It's a peaceful rest. 

[00:34:33] Cody: For some. 

[00:34:34] Gina: Well, that's, I'm talking about believers that are going to heaven. 

[00:34:37] Cody: Yeah. So, and David also talks about going to Sheol and you could make the argument that they're just talking, you know, every man goes to Sheol, every man dies. Uh, but I think there's some Old Testament connection to this holding place as well.

[00:34:54] They, they believe that there was some sort of. in between before resurrection happened. 

[00:35:00] Ben: So my understanding of the term Sheol is that it literally translates to the grave. It's not referring to a place that you go, it's referring to the fact that you die. And at the time that they were using the term Sheol at first, in the earliest parts of the Old Testament, keep in mind, they'd only just been told what God's literal name was.

[00:35:21] So at this point, they didn't even know much about heaven at all. They didn't even know if heaven existed, and even up until the time of Christ there was debate on that fact. There were the chief priests, the Sadducees, the Pharisees. There was some argument as to whether or not angels existed or demons existed or dark spirits or spirits of any kind existed.

[00:35:39] So, there were a lot of things already up in the air prior to the time of Christ, and that is especially true at the time of Moses, as Moses was the first person to learn what God's actual name was. When we're pointing to times that far back, it's tough for me to to extrapolate more than just them saying they didn't know.

[00:36:01] They referred to God with a name that they didn't know what his name was. They knew he existed, they just didn't know his name, and so they called out a name in his place. And then finally he gave them the name. Eventually, God revealed more about his nature and about his kingdom, and he revealed more about heaven and about earth.

[00:36:18] Now, as far as whether or not we go to heaven immediately, there are a couple verses that seem to indicate this, but I'm not sold on it. So just giving them a, as a reference, there's Luke chapter 16, verses 22 to 23, the poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.

[00:36:46] So that was a parable that Jesus was telling. And we, as we've said so many times about this story specifically, this is a parable. And then there's also Luke chapter 23, verse 43. And he said to him, truly, I say to you, you will be with me in paradise today. This guy, the thief on the cross next to Jesus was that very day going to be with Jesus in paradise.

[00:37:21] The same word, Gan Eden. That Paul uses for the third heaven. Again, tough to extrapolate too much there. It could be that both the waiting place where you will be and heaven itself where God is are put under the same umbrella because they are beyond time and space. They're beyond the physical universe at that point I don't know if it matters too much if we're pedantic about it and say okay There are these two different places and they're both equally beyond the universe and you go to one to wait But then there's God in this other one You could just call them different layers of the same heaven if you wanted to But even if we don't even if we say that it's a separate thing altogether And we say that's the place that you wait.

[00:38:02] Or if we don't and we say that there isn't that place and you just go straight to heaven. Heaven, in the end, is not the place we are meant to be. The new heaven and the new earth is. So even heaven itself is the place we would wait if this waiting room didn't exist. So in one way or another I agree with you guys.

[00:38:20] Like whether it's a separate place that you wait or heaven itself is the place that we wait. We're waiting somewhere. 

[00:38:24] Gina: Yeah, it's not the final resting or waiting room. 

[00:38:28] Ben: Absolutely. See, it's not that I think we disagree or anything. It's just I don't, I feel like it's an argument of terms. Like it's just a semantic discussion.

[00:38:38] For 

[00:38:38] Cody: sure, it's semantics. And to be clear, the waiting place is nothing to do with purgatory. Yes. That is not at all what we're talking about here. 

[00:38:48] Ben: Yeah, actually, it might be a good idea for us to cover this a bit. It's not in our outline, but there is, uh, The kind of Catholic, Orthodox Christian belief in purgatory.

[00:38:58] In heaven there's this place called the Treasury of Merit. In this treasury, this great vault, and inside this vault, there's a collection of all of the various good deeds that have been done throughout all of history by all the saints, by all the good people, the heroes of the Bible, and beyond that. Your bad deeds deduct from this treasury.

[00:39:17] And if there are not enough good deeds to cover, Your bad deeds, you go to purgatory, and when you're in purgatory, and you're a believer, and you haven't died outside of grace, you stay there until you have suffered enough to where you can leave purgatory and then go into heaven, and you are purified by the process of suffering.

[00:39:36] And you can actually get out early by people giving indulgences to the church. Back in the day, this was done through giving money directly to the church. But people can say prayers to you and make offerings and whatnot and speed your suffering. There are a few issues I have with this, not the least of which is that if the whole point is that you're there to suffer for your sins, other people shouldn't be able to do something to get you out of it faster.

[00:40:00] I would agree with that. 

[00:40:02] Gina: I've talked about abusive relationships before. That's all I'm going to say. 

[00:40:07] Cody: Oh. 

[00:40:08] Gina: Like, it's not. No. 

[00:40:11] Ben: Okay. 

[00:40:11] Gina: You can't hold God in money, so. No. There you go. No, you 

[00:40:15] Ben: cannot. And to be fair, I don't Well, actually, I'm not even sure what the modern Catholic position is on it. I don't know if you still can offer, like, monetary offerings to the church, and that speeds along a recovery from purgatory.

[00:40:30] I don't know if that's the case anymore. I'd heard from some Catholics it's not, so I don't know, but 

[00:40:37] Cody: I 

[00:40:37] Ben: bet they wouldn't 

[00:40:37] Cody: shy away from you saying, hey, can I offer you this money for my brother who wasn't too good? 

[00:40:44] Ben: It certainly doesn't hurt. 

[00:40:45] Gina: I think it's just a sign of Our own grief and insecurity when we lose somebody that we're not certain did all of the right things.

[00:40:55] And I think that's why it's so important that we invest the time in them while they're alive. Because we're not promised tomorrow. If you want to beat purgatory, so to speak, then I think the best thing you can do is be the salt and the light that Christ called us to be and make sure that everybody in your life knows how much you love them and knows how much God loves them.

[00:41:16] What they choose to do with that is up to them. You don't get to influence that outside of your example, but at least you've lived in a way with them that is honoring to the Lord and glorifying to the Lord. I don't think that it's fair to take on the personal responsibility of somebody else's salvation.

[00:41:37] Ben: I do think there are, I agree with you, Gina. There are a lot of people who, once they lose a loved one, feel powerless and they want to be able to do something to help out. They want 

[00:41:48] Gina: to guarantee they're going to see them again. 

[00:41:50] Ben: Absolutely. And, or at the very least, Have this feeling like they can do something like they're not completely finished with their loved one.

[00:42:00] And so they can do something to help them out, do something in love to honor their memory and to do something that they know is actually going to help them. But in the end, I don't think that's really a healthy way to look at this. I don't think one, the question is whether or not it's even true. And I don't believe it's true.

[00:42:18] There's nothing in the Bible that specifically talks about believers going and suffering for their own sins. I believe genuinely that it flies in the face of Christ's sacrifice completely. What is the point of His sacrifice if you need to suffer for your own sins? He died for your sins. 

[00:42:33] Cody: I absolutely agree.

[00:42:34] Like, you're cheapening God's sacrifice at that point. 

[00:42:39] Gina: It doesn't change the fact that we will all be judged. Like, we will be, we know that, but Christ's sacrifice is sufficient. We acknowledge his sacrifice to be saved. Our deeds are irrelevant. 

[00:42:54] Cody: Mm hmm. Got something you want to say, Cody? I don't know if I would say deeds are irrelevant.

[00:42:58] I don't think that's what you meant. 

[00:42:59] Gina: But I'm talking about just salvation. Yeah. 

[00:43:03] Cody: Your deeds have no merit on salvation. Absolutely agree. Your actions are important, though. Absolutely. And I think you agree with that. Mm hmm. Absolutely. 

[00:43:11] Gina: That's why I believe. To live as the salt and the light, which I have tattooed on my arm, like

[00:43:22] But honestly like your only guarantee with somebody that you love passing away is Whether or not you had the courage to share the gospel with them, and I've seen that at work in my own life That's why I say that 

[00:43:37] Ben: Yeah, I think one of the toughest things and one of the greatest things about the Great Commission is that you are not responsible for someone else's salvation.

[00:43:45] It's not on you to get someone into heaven. That's on God. God didn't say that you are responsible for saving everyone in your family. What he did say is that you're supposed to go forth and make disciples of all nations. You're supposed to spread his word. 

[00:44:00] Gina: Through action and through word. Absolutely.

[00:44:02] Ben: Absolutely. The book of James makes it very clear that we're supposed to live in such a way where our faith produces action. And Paul makes it abundantly clear that we really need that faith in Christ. But Peter also talks about how, or is it Peter? Is it, was it Paul who talks about how Apollos, Paul saw, sowed Apollos water?

[00:44:22] Yeah. Yeah, I know. Coda's mentioned the verse a few times, and I thought it was actually a very good one. It's that ultimately the growth is unto God. That you may sow the seed for faith. But you're not the one who makes it grow. You're not even the one who waters it, necessarily. 

[00:44:39] Gina: And we serve a God of mercy and grace.

[00:44:42] We serve a jealous God. We serve a wrathful God, but we also serve a merciful and gracious God. And I think we have to remember that when we're grieving, God is close to the broken hearted and also God is close to the people who are dying. And a lot can happen in their heart between them and God that we don't know.

[00:45:03] And it's very challenging to say with finality, Oh, they were saved. Unless they lived a long life of knowing they were a Christian. Some people on their deathbed, like my sister, decided I want to be a Christian and Didn't have time to necessarily get dipped in water, but doesn't necessarily mean she's not saved We don't know for sure, but I believe that she's saved I believe that there are sinners that have chosen on their deathbed to follow jesus and For that very short moment that they chose to follow jesus that was sufficient.

[00:45:37] So We can't take it on ourselves, other people's salvation, while they're alive or after they've left. 

[00:45:45] Cody: That's good and biblical. 

[00:45:46] Ben: And I think that actually leads into a question I didn't include on this outline, but I think does need to be asked. How exactly do you get into heaven? 

[00:45:55] Cody: You tap your head, you rub your belly, and you spin in circles at the same time every day for an hour a day.

[00:46:01] Gina: Declare with your mouth that Christ is Lord. Like, genuinely, if you declare that Jesus is the Messiah, that he died for your sins, that he rose to heaven, all of those things are true. You will be saved, declare with your mouth and believe in your heart. 

[00:46:20] Ben: But if you were like a genuinely awful person, like let's say that Adolf Hitler himself in his last few moments reflected on everything and realized the error of his ways and said, I am a sinner, Jesus saved me.

[00:46:33] And then he died. Would he have gone to heaven? 

[00:46:36] Cody: Ben just slapped you with one of the hardest, like atheist questions nowadays. 

[00:46:43] Gina: It's the same thing. Like. There's another one. I'm trying to remember exactly how it's phrased. So, it's like Judas walking with Jesus. Like, he knew that he was going to betray him and murder him, but he still walked side by side with Jesus.

[00:47:01] I don't think Jesus came for these, like, perfect, beautiful people who were like, whoop oo, Jesus. I think that Jesus came for the lost and the people who needed his example. And if we were really humble and able to put away our pride, we would see that there's parts of us that are really disgusting and weird and disturbing that need that savior.

[00:47:25] Is it possible for Adolf Hitler or any other horrible person in our world to be saved at the very last second? Yeah, I just said that about my own sister. So I, I do believe that. I just, I also believe personally, and I know that this isn't necessarily biblical, I do believe that there has to be an element of repentance for something like that.

[00:47:48] So if Adolf Hitler was on his deathbed and he said, help me, Jesus, or I really want to go to heaven, but I'm not sorry. I don't know that God would feel the same way. Like, I think repentance is an element. 

[00:48:04] Cody: Oh, absolutely. I was going to bring that up if you didn't. 

[00:48:07] Gina: Yeah. 

[00:48:08] Cody: Realizing that you're a sinner. 

[00:48:11] Gina: And you need saved.

[00:48:13] Cody: Yeah. You have nothing but filthy rags to present, I think, is part of the salvation process. 

[00:48:22] Ben: I think where a lot of people get hung up in this subject is the idea that. From the atheist perspective, when they ask this question, they're generally thinking, okay, all you need to do is believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that God exists.

[00:48:38] And if you do that, then suddenly you go to heaven. 

[00:48:42] Gina: He's not Santa Claus. 

[00:48:43] Ben: No. That's not even what the Bible says. In the book of James, it says you believe there is one God, good. Even the devil believes that and shudders. The point is not simply that you believe. The point is that you accept, that you turn and repent, that you admit that you need him.

[00:49:00] Gina: But the element of repentance is not. stressed heavily enough in our culture. 

[00:49:05] Ben: Agreed. I think that In many ways I actually do appreciate when atheists ask this question because it is highlighting the issue with our modern culture Where a lot of people view jesus as the get out of hell free card as the go to heaven free card Where it's just okay.

[00:49:21] I just believe that jesus exists and he loves me Therefore he's going to bring me into heaven. What 

[00:49:25] Gina: personal sacrifice does that really present to you if you're just like, okay Yeah, he's real Sure. I agree. Let me in. 

[00:49:33] Cody: It sucks from the human perspective. This is an ethic and moral argument that's brought up here because you can be an absolute terrible person and then on your deathbed, turn your ways and repent.

[00:49:46] But it's also. Some of the hard pill Christians have to swallow, too, is that, accepting that, because that's what Bible teaches. Like, there's lots of scripture. The prodigal son is one of them that kind of teaches this theory, but even more so the parable of the workers. all getting the same wage. Like, people can come in almost at the end of the day and still get paid the same as the people who were working the entire day.

[00:50:15] Does it seem fair? Not really, no. 

[00:50:18] Gina: But you look at, like, Paul, who wrote a huge chunk of the New Testament, who was a murderer and a Pharisee and just an all around horrible person to Christians. Did he deserve in his time to be saved and to be Somebody who is a major author and contributor to the New Testament.

[00:50:36] Did the religious people back then of Christianity believe that Paul deserved it? Obviously, they listened to him. If he can be redeemed, anybody can be redeemed. 

[00:50:45] Ben: And Paul always called himself the worst of sinners. That's what God did for him. He saved him. And he knew that he needed to be saved. And so if Paul, calling himself the worst of sinners, could be someone who could be saved, then obviously someone like Adolf Hitler could be too.

[00:51:01] And the big thing here is the verse in the Bible that says, If any man be in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away. You are not the same person. Whatever you were before, that's not who you are after you turn to Christ. 

[00:51:18] Gina: There are ugly horrible things even Christians have done like look at Ravi Zacharias.

[00:51:24] He's he did not end well But his ministry still changed millions of people's lives for the better. So like, you can't, as a human being, determine somebody else's salvation because it's something that happens internally between a person and God. 

[00:51:44] Ben: Yeah, I was actually just about to ask that as a follow up question.

[00:51:47] Can we even know if someone else has gotten into heaven? 

[00:51:50] Gina: No. 

[00:51:51] Cody: Ultimately, I don't think so. Because scripture talks a lot about the secret matters of the heart and people, other people not being able to know the depths of the humans. So you can see somebody on the outside that has lots of fruit, but does that necessarily mean they're going to heaven now?

[00:52:13] Ben: No. I do think, just speaking from my own personal experience and the experience of my family and I think, to an extent, your guys experience, you can receive assurance from God that individual people, born or unborn, or whatever stage of their life they happen to be in when they die, you can receive assurance from God that he's with them.

[00:52:32] Gina: Definitely. I remember last year when my uncle died. Feeling the Holy Spirit in the room, it was like a crazy feeling of something pressing down on the air pressure in the room, like it was a sense of like weight, but not burden and compassion, like overwhelming compassion and just knowing, like through that peace and that presence that as he passed, like that the Lord came and took him.

[00:53:00] But it's not something that other people would hear and be like, Oh, I understand that. You have to live through something like that. Or even like having a vision or a dream, because I know you and I have both had visions of our loved ones with the Lord. 

[00:53:15] Ben: Yeah, for me, there was a period of time, I don't remember exactly how long it was after my brother died, but there was a point where, I had been sleeping, and I dreamed of heaven, and I dreamed of speaking with my brother.

[00:53:28] And it was such a strange and vivid, and yet at the same time, ethereal dream. And when I was coming out of it, it felt like I was literally coming back into my body, and I was aware of the fact that I had been sleeping, or at least my body was sleeping. It's tough to describe. And I wanted to go back, and I couldn't go back.

[00:53:48] It was such a strange state to be in, and I've never had a dream like it before, then, or after. And that doesn't mean that what I saw in the dream was true, or that it really was from the Lord, or that it was anything. And yet, it's tough for me to deny what I saw, and it's tough for me to say that it wasn't some measure of assurance from God that my brother was with God in heaven.

[00:54:08] Now, I don't extrapolate any theology from what I saw or what I remember, and I think it's important for us to, to remember that we need first and foremost to interpret what it is that we see or experience through the lens of scripture. That's our solid rock, our canon, the measuring rod. But I do absolutely think.

[00:54:28] That even if you don't have, that sometimes there are people who, like you said, you're in the room with someone when they die, and you can feel the presence of the spirit. Is the spirit really showing up to, to carry someone off to heaven, but then bring them straight to hell? I don't believe so. Again, that's not to say that you can be 100 percent certain, just like you can't be 100 percent certain of anything.

[00:54:49] But I do think that the Lord, through the Spirit, one way or another, can and does frequently give people assurance. 

[00:54:56] Gina: If I hadn't had the courage to talk to my uncle about salvation before he went into a coma, I wouldn't have the reassurance that I do. God gave me an assignment. And when I traveled to visit my uncle and care for him, he said, make sure that you share with him.

[00:55:14] And I did. And we prayed together and I knew that through that prayer, he was secure. And that was the reassurance I needed to live with myself after the fact and have no regret. And God prepared me for that because he knew that I would be upset if I didn't do it. Both of my biological parents died before I had that chance, and I regretted not having the courage to reach out as a stranger, to say, hey, this is who I am, and this is who I love.

[00:55:43] The Lord, and he gave me instructions on how to do it when I had the chance. So I did, and I have no regrets and I'll never do it different because he gave me instructions. That's why I share the way that I do, but we don't know. We don't have a contract that God mails us like a death certificate. That's heaven or hell check.

[00:56:05] Like it doesn't work like that. It's a lot of faith and belief and study and knowing what you can, but it's still a mystery. And whether they're in heaven or waiting room or whatever, like it's 

[00:56:21] Cody: It doesn't matter. God gives you personal revelation, as Ben mentioned. It's not something you build theology on, but God loves you and wants to comfort you and reassure you.

[00:56:32] And I don't think there's anything wrong with that. You know, pouring into, you know, when we lost our three babies. Gina had a similar instance where she saw God carry them to heaven, and there's nothing wrong with believing that's exactly what happened. And it might not be the case when we're on the other side, but it, honestly, I don't think it'll matter at that point.

[00:56:59] Gina: He's given me so much assurance about that, plus myself, so the vision that I had with our babies was I was holding them too tight, and I wasn't letting them go, and he was like, Gina, you have to let them go. So he, his giant hand came out of the sky in this vision, and he asked me, like, put the babies in my hand, and I did.

[00:57:20] And he carried them up into the sky. And there were other instances where I had visions where he was like, you gave me your dead babies, but not your living ones. And so we went through this tug of war in this vision where I was like, I can't give them to you. And He was like talking me through it, and then at the end of it, it was like I don't want to be separate from them or from you, and he was like, you need to get in my hand too.

[00:57:49] It's not necessarily even that God was reassuring me that my babies were going to heaven. It's that my babies are His, and I am His, and sometimes I just have to trust Him. I do believe they're in heaven. 

[00:58:00] Ben: No matter what, they're with the Lord. 

[00:58:02] Gina: Exactly. And they are His, just like us. 

[00:58:06] Ben: And I think all of the biggest lessons that we learn as we go through our lives on earth and our walks with Christ is we constantly have to face up to the repercussions of what it is that we believe.

[00:58:19] We have to find out what it means to truly trust the Lord with everything. And once we finally do, and we go beyond that head knowledge that it's something we should do, and we finally cross that line and go into actually doing it, Then we find that piece that surpasses all understanding. And we finally understand why it is that God asks us to do it.

[00:58:39] And it's a very long and it's a very rough process, it's like what Cody's always talking about with sanctification. It, it, it is, it's a rough process, but it's a worthwhile thing to do. 

[00:58:49] Gina: I agree. I put some questions at the end. I don't know. Yeah, I 

[00:58:53] Ben: noticed that. I think it actually might be nice to just ask some miscellaneous questions here.

[00:58:56] Gina: Okay. Do you want me, I'll ask them. Yeah, 

[00:58:59] Ben: go for it. 

[00:59:01] Gina: Are certain people in heaven now while everyone else is waiting? For example, Enoch and Elijah. 

[00:59:09] Ben: I think no matter what, even if we go with, like, the waiting room approach, where there's a place where everyone else waits to be judged, I genuinely believe that both Enoch and Elijah are the two witnesses that are referenced in the book of Revelation.

[00:59:22] I understand there's some argument about that, but they're the only two people who never died. So, it makes the most sense to me that they are going to be the two witnesses that show up at the time of the end, because not only are they physical witnesses to God and his glory, but it seems that all of us, including Christ himself, owe life a death.

[00:59:44] And so it makes the most sense to me that since Elijah never died and Enoch never died but were brought up into heaven, that at some point they're going to die. So I understand there's a lot of argument there. Pretty much everyone agrees that Elijah is going to be one of the two witnesses. It's just, whether it's Enoch or Moses, it seems to be some argument there.

[01:00:02] But regardless, in order for those two to be witnesses, they have to witness. So they wouldn't be simply in the waiting area with everyone else. I believe they genuinely have to be witnesses to God himself and his glory. So I would say no matter what, they're with God, whether you subscribe to the waiting room approach to heaven or the in God's presence approach to heaven.

[01:00:26] Gina: Do you have any thoughts? 

[01:00:28] Cody: Gariffa and like second temple literature has a lot on these two, especially Enoch. And, like, their walk with God, but, uh, the idea that they're in is more of, like, an Eden setting. Again, I agree with Ben, it doesn't really matter whether they're in heaven or in a holding spot. 

[01:00:50] Gina: Okay, my next question, I'm jumping back up to the top, but My next question, because these are all questions that I've had as I've learned that maybe you guys haven't thought about, I don't know, but it's stuff that I've heard taught in sermons that I've been like, eh, I don't like.

[01:01:08] So does heaven have special rooms and floors for people who are extra special to God? 

[01:01:17] Ben: I don't know where, do you remember where they taught that from? 

[01:01:20] Gina: It's not in the Bible. It says that the house has many rooms and some people, some KJV translates it to mansions. So, some people believe that everybody gets a mansion, and some people believe that there's different levels of heaven that more pious and special people get to go to, and that's not anywhere in the Bible.

[01:01:40] Cody: There's lots of places that I think that's pulled from and where. They get that train of thought from like storing up treasures in heaven and stuff I think is one of the ones that's popularly used for that train of thought. That's a tough one for me because I don't really know where I believe because you have different scripture where we're going to be judging the angels and there's a great article by, or a dissertation by, his name's Burnett, I can't remember his first name right now.

[01:02:13] But basically he talks about the Abrahamic covenant and how the, you'll be like the sand, but like the stars of the sky as well. It's a quantitative and qualitative covenant where he's also going to be like the angels, the stars in the sky. And, judge them. And it's a really great dissertation, but I think a lot of that is pulled into there.

[01:02:37] And I really don't know what I believe on that. Do I think there will be different levels of people's responsibility on new earth? Yes. Do I think some people are going to have a Joel Osteen 20, 000 square foot mansion while other people are living in hovels? I don't really know. 

[01:02:55] Gina: If it's in heaven, but it's a cardboard box, at least you made it.

[01:02:59] Ben: Yeah. That is true. You should count your blessings, really. The Bible does talk about, in two different places, really, people having different honor. So there's the 24 elders that sit on the thrones with God, but that's only 24 people. And there's also the 144, 000 from each tribe of Israel. So those are also people who have greater honor.

[01:03:23] So we have 24 and then 144, 000 that are in heaven and that God seems to have set aside for a special purpose. So not everyone is going to have the same measure of honor in heaven. But when you look at the qualifications for being one of the group of the 144, 000 is people who've never had relations with a woman or anything.

[01:03:45] And they're people who are basically spotless, the best that you could possibly be. They're people who sacrificed a lot on earth. And Jesus himself said that whoever sacrifices, like, however much you have sacrificed on earth, you shall receive much greater in heaven. And there are many ways to take that, but in taking in some total, the people who gave everything, literally everything, like their bodies, their hearts, their minds, everything to God, God gives infinitely more back to them and they have greater authority.

[01:04:15] Now, as far as whether that translates into great mansions and stuff, I think that's actually completely missing the point. The point is never that you get a Range Rover in heaven and everyone else gets maybe a Mercedes S class. Who knows? Like 

[01:04:30] Gina: Honda Accord 

[01:04:32] Ben: because we all have to be in one accord. We all have to share it.

[01:04:36] They get the Range Rover, but everyone else in heaven has to be in one accord. That's right. 

[01:04:40] Gina: I just need to go to the grocery store. I'll be right 

[01:04:44] Ben: back. But I think it's a completely wrong way of looking at it in terms of physical things, like actual possessions. The only thing that I can remember that I think of as far as what people have is the crowns that the Bible talks about us having, and we surrender those to God.

[01:05:04] The one thing that it seems that we have that is directly proportional to all the things that we did, that we have in greater abundance than other people, we surrender back to God in the end anyway. What the honor that God gives us is being able to give more to him at the end again I think it is the complete wrong way of looking at that that some people have we're like, yeah I'm gonna have a bigger house and everyone else No, I think you're gonna have the smallest house if we go on based on houses But no, that's not it at all 

[01:05:31] Gina: the penthouse on the top floor of heaven 

[01:05:33] Ben: But I'm with you Cody.

[01:05:35] I think that there are definitely gonna be people who have more responsibility But as far as that translates to a mansion, that's the wrong way of looking at it. 

[01:05:43] Gina: The honor and the glory is the Lord's. If we're to worship Him, we cannot be worshiping man. And, or God's creation, it has to be God Himself and His Son.

[01:05:56] So, having honors because of the life on earth that we're not even sure we're going to remember in heaven. Like, it's silly to me, but that's why I asked, because some people, like, that's the hill they want to die on, and I don't like it. 

[01:06:12] Ben: I think there are a lot of people who desperately want to have there be actual, like, great monetary rewards that we can understand in heaven, and that's not what God wants to offer you, and that's not what God wants you to focus on.

[01:06:24] Cody: Yeah. For my sake, I hope there's not, cause like, how can you compete with Paul or any of these early church fathers or monks? I hope there's not. 

[01:06:35] Ben: Like Paul drives up in his Corvette, he's like, how you doing, holy scrubs? 

[01:06:40] Gina: No. 

[01:06:40] Ben: Get good, losers. 

[01:06:43] Gina: Do better. 

[01:06:44] Cody: Do better. 

[01:06:46] Gina: That was like a whole off topic, but anyway, 

[01:06:49] Cody: yeah, that's a good one.

[01:06:51] The competitive side of me doesn't want that to happen. I'm with you on that. 

[01:06:55] Gina: Okay. My last question that I think I have is, so Jesus does a lot of talking about how he's preparing a new earth and a new heaven. The people who lived before Jesus, will they go to heaven? And where was God storing their souls previously?

[01:07:16] Because it wasn't ready, it wasn't prepared. 

[01:07:19] Ben: The whole point about Christ saying that he goes to prepare a place for us is that's the new heaven. That's the new earth. I don't think he was going to prepare the regular heaven. And then while that's being prepared, he's also preparing the new heaven, a new, there's a lot of construction in heaven.

[01:07:32] Like it's just, it's crazy. Like they got that scaffolding everywhere. Like during that council scene, I'm pretty sure there was like just random ladders and spackle, like buckets of spackle all over the place and construction noises and stuff. 

[01:07:45] Cody: Probably. Yeah. It sounds like there's lots of construction.

[01:07:48] Ben: But this is actually a very common question, and it's a good one. Did the people who lived before Jesus go to hell, or did they go to heaven? The closest thing I think that we get to an answer is, I believe, in 1 Peter. Yeah, it's 1 Peter 4, verse 6. For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead.

[01:08:12] So that they might be judged according to human standards in regards to the body. It's important to not invest too much into that one specific scripture. Because that's a lot of theology to try to extrapolate just from one part of the Bible. And it might not even be referring to the people who lived before Christ specifically.

[01:08:30] However, there are other parts in the Bible that talks about how Jesus died once for all. For all implies the people who lived prior to him. So, it does make sense to me in taking that into account, and the verse in 1 Peter, that it seems to me Christ's sacrifice really was once for all time. And that for the people who died prior to his sacrifice, they were told about his sacrifice.

[01:08:56] And they were given a chance, just like we have, to accept and to repent. Now, who knows exactly how that works? And I think that this is actually probably one of the best examples of why there probably is some kind of waiting place. Because were all of these people in heaven? Or were there someplace else, some kind of waiting place?

[01:09:11] It could be that they were in heaven. It could be that they were all in hell. And then Christ dragged them all up from hell and then told them about his sacrifice. And then they fully understanding what exactly it is that their sins wrought them were able to make a decision. Who knows? We're not told.

[01:09:28] And there are a lot of implications no matter what direction you take, but I do genuinely believe that Christ's sacrifice included the people who came before him. 

[01:09:35] Cody: I would agree with that. I do think this is one of the reasons I lean more towards a holding place or a place before the place. That, and there's that big question of where did Jesus go when he died then, because you don't read about his ascension until three days later.

[01:09:53] Ben: That was a bodily ascension. 

[01:09:55] Cody: Yeah. 

[01:09:55] Ben: And the thing is that he could ascend in spirit into heaven, and then he had to be somewhere. So he either was in heaven or he was in the holding place or he was in hell. He could have been in all three places. He could have been in just one of them. Like the point is, is that.

[01:10:10] Like, no matter what, you face the same kind of interpretation. 

[01:10:13] Cody: Yeah, but did he go die, go to heaven, come back in body, resurrect, go back to heaven? Again, like in body, I don't know, there's a lot going on there. No 

[01:10:25] Ben: matter what, there's a lot going on. But I'm with you. It does make sense to an extent. And I'm not married to any one particular interpretation.

[01:10:32] The reality is we just don't know. And I'm okay not knowing. Yeah. 

[01:10:36] Gina: You just gotta have faith. You just gotta 

[01:10:39] Ben: believe. Gotta have faith. Cody hates that. I do. I gotta have faith. The faith. Not that. The answer is you just gotta believe. No, I agree. It is a tough pill to swallow no matter what. But honestly, that seems to be one of the biggest takeaways from the Book of Job.

[01:10:58] It's that you gotta trust that he is God. And that's the example that we were given from Elijah. Be still and know that I am God. And it sucks, but it does seem like that's the biggest lesson no matter what that God wants us to take away, because the truth is we're not always going to have an answer. 

[01:11:14] Gina: But we know the nature of God, we know His characteristics.

[01:11:18] He has been described and we have experienced Him. We can trust Him. We have to know that. If you are like sitting through this episode and really wrestling with it, you should probably evaluate through wise counsel and discipleship what you're creating God's identity to be in your mind, because you will feel peace when His identity is.

[01:11:45] Correctly ordered in your mind. Thank you so much for taking the time to listen to our podcast today. If you liked what you heard, please feel free to subscribe and share and leave a positive review. And if you would like to connect with us on social media, you can do so on Instagram and Facebook at the Logic of God.

[01:12:05] You can also send us an email at main.thelogicofgod@gmail.com. Thanks again for listening. We hope you have a great day.