What is Hell? Part 1
[00:00:00] Cody: Hi, thank you for tuning in to the Logic of God podcast. I'm Cody.
[00:00:19] Gina: I'm Gina.
[00:00:19] Cody: And I'm Ben. You're returning. Thank you for coming back. And if you are a new guest, welcome.
[00:00:34] Ben: So after covering a fairly non controversial subject like heaven, we figured we'd go into a very controversial subject, which is hell. Hell.
[00:00:43] Gina: Hell. It doesn't exist. So
[00:00:47] Ben: we'll get to that.
[00:00:49] Cody: I can't believe you just said that on the podcast. It's H E double hockey sticks.
[00:00:53] Ben: Oh, yes. Yeah. There are some people who will get very offended if you even call it hell.
[00:00:57] If you say its name, there are some folks who say it doesn't exist. There are some people who are very adamant that it does exist and are very angry with you if you don't get it right. Bearing all that in mind, in that spirit, we sit forward.
[00:01:09] Cody: Or all of those.
[00:01:10] Ben: Yes. We will address everything and more. First question, what exactly is hell?
[00:01:16] What do we mean when we say hell?
[00:01:19] Gina: The Oxford definition is a place regarded in various religions as a spiritual realm of evil and suffering, often traditionally depicted as a place of perpetual fire beneath the earth where the wicked are punished after death. However, Webster says, a nether below world in which the dead continue to exist.
[00:01:44] The nether realm of the devil and the demons in which condemned people suffer everlasting punishment.
[00:01:51] Ben: So already we're getting labeled on hell and that both those definitions mention it being a nether or a below place, as in below the earth. Is hell like a physical place?
[00:02:03] Gina: I don't know how to answer that.
[00:02:05] I don't like, I don't like Why me? Cody, go. One, two, three, go.
[00:02:09] Cody: Traditional Christianity would say yes. You
[00:02:11] Gina: Okay.
[00:02:12] Cody: Okay. Is that satisfactory?
[00:02:14] Ben: Not particularly, but we can go into more, we can go into more detail a bit later because there is the more common interpretation, like the modern interpretation, because both those definitions are okay, but they're fairly political in that they're trying to hold their hands back and say, look, everybody believes in some kind of hell.
[00:02:33] It's just some kind of general nether below place where bad people go. As far as, like, the modern depiction or understanding, like, whenever you see a TV show and someone goes to hell, what you kinda get is something that's a derivative of something from Dante's Inferno. And a lot of modern depictions of hell draw heavily from Dante's Inferno.
[00:02:54] Everyone's probably heard Dante's Inferno somewhere before. Essentially, in Dante's Inferno, There's nine circles of hell, and the punishments at each level get worse as you go down. Each person that is sent to hell is sorted into a different layer based on the sin, Um, this version of hell is not based in the Bible at all.
[00:03:13] It actually draws a lot more from Aristotle's views on the nature of evil and the nature of the soul. And the upper levels are dedicated to animalistic desire or lack of knowledge, where your sins, you don't, you commit them less with understanding and more from impulse. And the lower levels are crimes dedicated to intent and understanding.
[00:03:33] So like at the top level. Which would be for the least of the people going to hell. There would be Limbo. Which is where people go who never heard of Christ. Then the second level is Lust. Third level is Gluttony. Fourth level is Greed. Fifth level is Anger. Sixth level is Heresy. I really
[00:03:50] Gina: thought that was Hershey.
[00:03:52] Ben: Hershey. It's Hershey.
[00:03:54] Gina: It's sinful.
[00:03:55] Ben: Jaina, it's Hershey. Your honor, I say Hershey. Yeah, seventh level is Violence. Eighth level is fraud, and ninth level is treachery. You'd think there'd be a lot more bad things for people to do than just those nine, but
[00:04:10] Cody: Why is fraud worse than violence?
[00:04:13] Ben: Yeah, so, the layout of hell and the nine circles, one, like we said, it is not biblical in any way.
[00:04:21] I do think, though, it's interesting trying to set up Hell in terms of punishing crimes of intent versus crimes of passion, or just things where your animalistic desire would drive you to do something. Do you guys feel like there's anything in that, or is that just completely off base?
[00:04:38] Gina: I mean, we serve a jealous God.
[00:04:40] We serve a wrathful God. So there's certain human emotions that I think some people mistake for sinful behavior that's actually righteous behavior. So like a crime of passion, depending on the circumstances, I could see somebody being technically biblically justified, thou shall not murder or covet or you have the 10 commandments to give you a really good guideline for how to behave within passion.
[00:05:08] Ben: But do you think there's something to be said for worse punishments meted out for people who live their lives committing crimes that are with understanding of what they're doing versus people who don't understand what they're doing?
[00:05:20] Gina: Are you asking me if I believe that they deserve a greater punishment from God?
[00:05:24] Ben: Sure. We can go with that.
[00:05:26] Gina: I'm just trying to understand.
[00:05:28] Ben: So in the concept set forward in Dante's Inferno, it's that at the highest levels of hell, there are people who are sent to hell, but they, they're there because they don't know Jesus. And it's just they were never told. And so there are plenty of people who we would generally consider to be decent people.
[00:05:43] And their only crime, according to Dante's Inferno, is that they just didn't know Jesus. And then as you go further down into hell, it's people who really legitimately did a lot of things wrong. Now, obviously, you can't sort people into these different layers of hell as listed because there's people who, like, everybody has done more than one thing wrong.
[00:06:02] It's not as if one person has literally just committed one act of anger, one act of heresy, one act of violence, and one act of fraud.
[00:06:09] Gina: That's why there's treachery, because it's like the catch all for the worst of the worst.
[00:06:12] Ben: So
[00:06:13] Cody: basically, it should be one
[00:06:14] Ben: to Hitler.
[00:06:15] Gina: Oh, Cody. He had to bring it up.
[00:06:18] Ben: Yeah, that does still beg the question.
[00:06:20] Do you think that people deserve to be punished eternally differently based on the different amounts of evil they've done?
[00:06:28] Gina: I can't make that assessment. That's up to God. I don't know if I believe that is a possibility or a truth for hell. I struggle with that, but I take this side of, I don't know.
[00:06:41] Cody: I think there could be an argument made biblically that there is worse punishment for your actions.
[00:06:47] We're going to be judged off of our actions. So if somebody has better actions than the other, I could see a reason to punish one more than the other.
[00:06:56] Ben: The question is, does the Bible actually show different punishment in hell?
[00:07:02] Cody: No, not in hell. I do think it shows different punishment in earthly.
[00:07:07] Gina: The descriptions of what will happen in hell for Satan versus for people, those are two different things.
[00:07:15] But I don't know that for people, it's on different levels. We'll get to
[00:07:19] Ben: that. And I absolutely agree with you in that the devil, um, It seems was the most capable and knew the most about evil unless he's held to the highest level of account. And that does make a lot of sense. In terms of what Dante's Inferno puts forward where not there are nine circles of hell and whatnot.
[00:07:35] No, I don't buy that. No.
[00:07:37] Cody: No. Yeah, I
[00:07:37] Ben: don't agree with the Dante's
[00:07:39] Cody: Inferno.
[00:07:39] Ben: Yes. However, I do think that there is definitely biblical basis for saying that If you go into leadership, for instance, the Bible makes it abundantly clear that it's something you shouldn't do half heartedly or without a sufficient thought, because if you teach people wrong, you will make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.
[00:08:00] Gina: Yeah, there is a lot of scripture about like teachers and leaders and people who cause children to stumble. So I could see there being some foundation for it, but it's definitely not organized the way that this Dante's Inferno book is.
[00:08:15] Ben: Yeah, if anything, I would say there's a stronger case to be made that people will be judged and then punished.
[00:08:22] The punishment is ultimately the same. It's hell. But the discernment of whether or not you will be sent there is gonna be different for leaders versus the average person who maybe doesn't know that much or understand. Now, I'm not a hundred percent married to that concept, but there are parts of the Bible that talk about, that talk about how leaders will be judged more harshly, and whether that judgment is upon judgment day or just God's everyday judgment where he decides to punish you to try to straighten you out, that's a bit up in the air, and I can see either way, and I don't want to give people the impression that I'm saying that, no, you can lose your salvation because you said the wrong thing as a leader, and God is going to throw you into hell.
[00:09:02] Gina: There is the verse. In John chapter 9, verse 41, he talks about the Pharisees and their level of guilt. And Jesus says, if you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin, but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains. So that's another example of knowing that there is some level, like a higher level of accountability for somebody in a position of like teaching or leadership.
[00:09:27] But yeah. Then also, on the flip side, the innocence of guilt because of not knowing. Mm hmm. Yeah, and there's some,
[00:09:36] Cody: I can't remember which one of the Johns it's in, one of his letters talks about the sins that, you know, lead to death versus other sins.
[00:09:46] Gina: That's, Deuteronomy had that. Like the whole list of all of the types of sin that God condemns people for
[00:09:53] Ben: and it's definitely in the book of James where it Talks about sins that lead to death.
[00:09:57] I had said before in one of our previous episodes. That was Paul. That was actually James But yeah, the tough thing there is the Bible absolutely does say there is a higher standard for leaders Question is does that standard apply to God's judgment? In the hereafter, like on Judgment Day, when we're all judged together, or is it judgment that is put on us during our life, where God judges each of our individual actions and decides if we need correction?
[00:10:24] Gina: Both.
[00:10:25] Ben: I think that it's probably fair. At the very least, we know that it's while we live. But it could very well be that God will judge you harsher at Judgment Day, because you decided you wanted to be a teacher and lead people astray, and you should have known better.
[00:10:38] Gina: Jude talks a lot about false teachers and how we need to snatch people from the fire of false teachers.
[00:10:46] Absolutely. I don't think that alliteration is there for no reason.
[00:10:49] Ben: So those are a bunch of kind of secular references for hell. What does the Bible actually say about hell?
[00:10:56] Cody: A lot. It
[00:10:57] Ben: speaks about it more than
[00:10:58] Cody: heaven.
[00:10:59] Ben: Which should tell you something. So yeah, as far as the Old Testament goes, I couldn't find a lot of direct references to hell.
[00:11:06] However, there is an allusion to hell in Daniel chapter 12 verse 2. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
[00:11:19] Gina: I think it's worth, and you know more about it than I do, but I think it's worth noting that the Jews previous to Jesus didn't believe in an afterlife necessarily.
[00:11:29] Cody: Yeah, and you saw that in the New Testament, the Sadducees and Pharisees, like the Pharisees believed in a bodily resurrection, the Sadducees did not. But there's not a whole lot of reference to resurrection in the Old Testament either. Most of their depiction is more like Sheol type mentality.
[00:11:51] Ben: Yeah, I think it's safe to say C.
[00:11:54] S. Lewis wrote some about this in one of his works. I can't remember exactly which one, but he talked about how The people in the Old Testament didn't really have much of a conception for heaven or hell. They very clearly believed that heaven existed. Like we see mention of that in Ezekiel. But the thing is that they only believed what God revealed to them.
[00:12:12] And so if God hadn't said anything about hell or heaven up to that point, they had no way of knowing. And honestly, that's one of the reasons why I believe in the Bible as much as I do, because it doesn't tell you something it doesn't know. Or at the very least, the people writing it don't say more than they knew at the time.
[00:12:26] They say only what God revealed to them. And so you're right. Exactly. Cody. What is that? By the time of Christ, there were people who were like, God is immortal and eternal. And so there's probably a spirit within us and we probably go to heaven because there are angels and whatnot. And there are Sadducees who said, no, there's none of that because we don't have any evidence of that.
[00:12:45] And there is some evidence. There's obviously David who says about his son who dies, I will go to him. He will not come to me. And there's reference that Solomon makes. Where he says, who knows if the spirits of men go into the air and the spirits of dogs go into the ground. There's a bunch of musings of various people, but nothing much that's concrete at the very least in the Old Testament.
[00:13:07] It's not until we get to the New Testament where we see much more solid revelation about both heaven and hell. Because Jesus tells us. So yeah, going from the Old Testament, and again, there's a little bit of reference in there. Daniel at the very least tells us that there is going to be everlasting punishment.
[00:13:26] But moving on to Matthew, chapter 8, verses 11 through 12. I tell you, many will come from east and west and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. While the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness, in the place where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
[00:13:44] So yeah, there's that bit from the Webster definition and the Oxford definition about hell being another place under the earth. It's not under the earth. Like, it's an out, here it's referred to as an outer darkness, but you'll see the general motif is that it's not beneath anything. It's not a physical place.
[00:14:03] It's a place where your spirit goes. So yeah, building off of that, 2 Peter 2, verse 4, for if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until judgment, there's more there, but that's the mention of hell. Then there's Luke chapter 16, verses 22 to 24.
[00:14:24] The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. And he called out, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in the flame.
[00:14:46] So, again, we come back to the parable. We come to this parable for reference to both heaven and hell. And just as we said in the, or at least, I feel like we're all in agreement as far as the heaven episode is concerned. Just because it's in a parable doesn't mean that everything in it is 100 percent as it actually is.
[00:15:04] Jesus was telling a parable. I think there are bits and pieces that we can pull from that, but we can't create a cohesive understanding of heaven or hell just from that one parable. But so far, what do you guys think?
[00:15:16] Gina: It's interesting that some descriptions of hell describe it as like burning and fiery and other descriptions call it like darkness and gloomy.
[00:15:27] It's hard to have light with fire, or no light with fire. So, It's an interesting dichotomy.
[00:15:34] Ben: Yeah. And we'll get more into that in a bit, but that's a good thought to hold on to because there's a possibility that it's referring to two different places, but we'll get to that.
[00:15:43] Gina: Yeah.
[00:15:44] Ben: So do the devils and demons rule hell, like in popular depictions, you know, where they're running around with pitchforks and they're probing people's butts and whatnot.
[00:15:54] Probing people's butts. We'll take that, we'll take that part
[00:15:57] Cody: out. No, I leave it. I
[00:15:58] Ben: like it.
[00:16:00] Cody: No, absolutely not. I don't, where does that come from?
[00:16:04] Ben: There's just a lot of, yeah, there's a lot of art depictions from like the medieval era that show the fire and torment. And I think like some, from some of the verses that we read before, the demons are going to be down there and people are going to be cast down there as well from what the verses were saying.
[00:16:21] And so if we're all going to be down there together, then. And who knows what's going to happen? What are demons going to do except torture people? But it's certainly not something that's said in the Bible. It's not saying that demons are there to torture people.
[00:16:35] Gina: Some people, I think, get that he could be the ruler of hell or of darkness because scripture calls him, like, I think it calls him the prince of something.
[00:16:48] Ben: He's, he's the prince of the kingdom of air.
[00:16:51] Gina: And then there's another one that says that he is like the father of lies. So it gives him like, there's certain wordplay that makes it seem like he has more authority than he does. And people are fearful.
[00:17:05] Ben: Wait, so the verse that you're talking about him being a prince is actually one that's written down here.
[00:17:10] And you were dead in trespasses and sins. In which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience, among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, And we're by nature, children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
[00:17:35] So hell is not set up to be a place where the devil rules. The devil didn't rule hell.
[00:17:41] Gina: No, but as a person who's only been a believer for eight years and who was afraid to study hell because of my background. Like, it is easy to believe that there would be some kind of yin and yang situation going on.
[00:17:56] And it's not true, but it is a common misconception that I think it is more common than we probably realize being in the church.
[00:18:05] Ben: Yes. And there's a lot of talk of that dichotomy of light versus darkness, of hot versus cold, of good versus evil. And so in order to help people understand the nature of God, you talk about light and dark, and the Bible talks a lot about light and dark, and you think, okay, so equal and opposite powers.
[00:18:22] Even in that, these forces that we're talking about, light and dark, hot and cold, they're not equal and opposites. It is the presence or absence. Darkness is not anything in and of itself. It is the absence of light. Cold is not anything in and of itself, it is the absence of heat. Evil is not anything in and of itself, it is the absence of good.
[00:18:44] There are a lot of people who fall into that trap of thinking, Okay, there has to be a king of hell, just as there is a king of heaven, and good and evil are basically fighting, and there are a lot of people who take that position just to say, What one person says is good, another person might consider to be evil, it's all two sides of the same coin.
[00:19:00] No, that's not the way the Bible represents good or evil. It's that the devil is a loser. Like Christ conquered sin and death, he conquered the devil. He conquered this world from him. He took his dominion away. And now the devil is basically just biding the rest of his time waiting until he's cast into the fiery pit.
[00:19:16] In Revelation chapter 20, verse 10, And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were, and they were tormented day and night for ever and ever. So the devil will one day be thrown into hell. And that is the place he suffers. It's a quarantine zone for him and his angels.
[00:19:36] Gina: And the condemned.
[00:19:38] Ben: So, there's also Luke chapter 8 verses 30 to 31. Jesus then asked him, What is your name? And he said, Legion. For many demons had entered him. And they begged him not to command them to depart into the abyss. Demons don't want to be there. So yeah, going back to the central question, do demons rule hell?
[00:19:58] They don't want to be there. They legitimately begged Jesus not to cast them out of this man and be sent into the abyss. So there's also Revelation 9 1 and the fifth angel blew his trumpet and I saw a star fallen from heaven to earth And he was given the key to the shaft of the bottomless pit Revelation chapter 19 verse 20 and the beast was captured and with it the false prophet Who in its presence had done the signs by which he had deceived those who had received the mark of the beast And those who worshipped its image.
[00:20:31] These two were thrown alive into the lake that burns with sulfur. So yeah, hearing all this, one, is there any comments that you guys have so far?
[00:20:39] Gina: No, I think you're on point. Thank you.
[00:20:42] Ben: So this does bring us to the next question. We're hearing a lot of references, both of an abyss and a lake of fire. And Gina, you mentioned before that, you know, there's a lot of talk about darkness versus fire, and it seems strange that there would be light in a place where there's darkness and whatnot.
[00:20:59] So, yeah, there, there are really a couple of different terms that the Bible is using here. There's like Hades. There's the abyss. There's the lake of fire. Are these places different or are they all different names for the same place?
[00:21:13] Gina: I'm going to let Cody answer that one because he's all into the language.
[00:21:17] Cody: I was under the impression that they're all the same, but I'm open to be wrong. I mean, it's tough because Hades is the translation of Sheol, um, which Sheol from Ancient Hebrew was more thought of in the world, but utter darkness doesn't really fit into that category for me. So I could see them being different, but it's not something I've really
[00:21:43] Ben: looked into.
[00:21:44] I don't know if I just read it or if it was referenced somewhere else, but the Bible does talk about demons being thrown into the abyss when they sinned. That's Peter,
[00:21:57] Cody: 2nd Peter. For God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and commended them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until judgment.
[00:22:05] Ben: So yes, presently there is a pit that demons have been thrown into. And they are being held in chains until the day of judgment. And there are portions in revelation that talk about the keys to the pit. And that's another thing that we recently just read. The keys, there's an angel that falls and there's a keys to the abyss and the abyss is opened.
[00:22:27] Now that is not the lake of fire. It can't be the lake of fire.
[00:22:31] Cody: If you take that position though, 2nd Peter then says that they're cast them into hell. To be held. So as hell in the lake of fire, not the same
[00:22:40] Ben: as well. So again, this is a, a difference in terms here. It seems like once again, as there's the word heavens, Heaven is a reference to multiple things.
[00:22:51] It seems that hell here is also being referenced to multiple things. The Bible does seem to say that there is a place that is an abyss. And it's the place where angels are currently thrown. Revelation chapter 20 verses 11 through 15. Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence, earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them.
[00:23:13] And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne. And books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it. Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
[00:23:35] Then Death and Hades were thrown into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death, the Lake of Fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the Book of Life, he was thrown into the Lake of Fire. So Death and Hades are thrown into the Lake of Fire. You can't throw hell into hell. It seems to me, and this is something that I found just researching for this episode, and I want to see what you guys think because this is actually just something that I found while genuinely reading these verses with a fresh eye.
[00:24:06] It seems like the abyss is a separate place from hell. The abyss is the place where the dead and devils are thrown for now, being held until the time of judgment. Once the time of judgment comes, the Abyss gives up all that is in it, and both humans and devils are judged, and then thrown into the Lake of Fire.
[00:24:26] The Lake of Fire seems to be a separate place.
[00:24:29] Cody: In this context, I would agree, but his death is depicted as an individual place. But Hades is usually the translation for Sheol. It says death and Hades, two individual
[00:24:43] Ben: places. Yeah, I'd have to look up the actual words used there. So there's a little bit up in the air.
[00:24:49] But still, the Bible is talking about the place that it says people were. In that same set of verses, in this same chapter, it talks about that death and the grave. Death and Hades give up those who are in them. And then death and Hades are thrown into the fire.
[00:25:03] Gina: If demons are shackled, currently in an abyss, how is their spiritual warfare on earth?
[00:25:10] Ben: So not all of them are thrown in there. Remember, the ones in Legion begged not to be thrown down. There are demons that presently are there, but not every single demon is there.
[00:25:21] Cody: Sorry, but I think that would back up my position on demons being the fallen. Potentially. There are a couple of different explanations.
[00:25:27] If you take Peter for that, if God didn't spare the angels when they sinned and shackled them, then did he spare some angels?
[00:25:36] Ben: The question is, sinned for what? So, is there like a gradual sinning? Is it like all of them sinned all at once and then were all sent down at the same time? Or did they sin at different times doing different things?
[00:25:50] So like the gods of Egypt, there were presumably demons who sinned prior to them and did bad things, because we talk about the Nephilim. So, by definition, there had to have been angels who sinned prior to them, because the creation of the Nephilim would presumably be a sin. And then there's the gods of Egypt who would also have to be demons.
[00:26:07] The generally assumed to be fallen angels. Although you could also argue those were spirits of Nephilim or something like that. But at this point, I think we're getting into kind of a semantic game. You could absolutely be right. And it could be that over time, the angels of heaven that turned into demons, that turned against God eventually rebelled and were thrown.
[00:26:24] But there were the spirits of Nephilim that were still causing issues on earth. I don't know that's the case. No matter what, we're told that there are demons that are in this abyss and those that are there will be brought up to be judged. And then once they are judged, they will be thrown into the lake of fire.
[00:26:40] Cody: So it's interesting. I have a hard time with Revelation on the heaven and hell talk with its genre. I would need to look up and find other connections scripturally for the two independent places.
[00:26:54] Gina: So Cody has a rule that if you can't back one book up with another author, then it may not be as credible or reliable to build your faith on.
[00:27:06] Cody: Yeah. If you get a doctrine from Paul and you can't back it up anywhere else in the Bible, I think you need to look at that a little bit more strictly than you would anywhere
[00:27:14] Ben: else. And I would have to go a bit more in detail and studying the word usage here. We have seen so far, though, that there is word usage for the abyss.
[00:27:25] And the darkness, and we have seen word usage for the lake of fire, referring to the ultimate eternal torment. So it seems that both are being used, and it's just in Revelation, it seems to me, at the very least, that they're being used to refer to two different places. And to an extent, this actually goes into our discussion before about, you know, heaven versus a kind of purgatory place where people would be held instead of going straight to heaven.
[00:27:52] Gina: Like a holding cell.
[00:27:53] Ben: And in a sense, that does make sense. They haven't been judged yet, so they're being held until the time where they're judged. It doesn't make sense to throw someone into a place of eternal torment just to bring them back up and say, okay, now we're going to judge you.
[00:28:06] Gina: Pause for a second.
[00:28:07] I just got to tell you everything you've done wrong after I've already abused
[00:28:11] Ben: you. Yeah. So it does make sense that God would put someone in the equivalent of a holding cell. They've been accused, at the very least, of wrongdoing. And so they need to wait their day in court. Now, again, it doesn't make sense.
[00:28:24] Doesn't mean that it's right. And like you said, we do need to hedge our bets here a bit. We do need to take a step back and say, we need to find enough of this throughout the new Testament to say that we would, you know, back this horse, so to speak.
[00:28:37] Cody: No, and it's an interesting concept. I do think it backs up the idea that there is a holding place.
[00:28:43] Um, that's another scripture. And, um, Luke, I think backs that up more than hell versus heaven between Lazarus and the rich man, um, as a holding place. Cause, um, later on in that parable, it talks about, um, the rich man wants to tell his brothers. Um, and then basically Jesus says or Abraham says they had Moses and they didn't believe.
[00:29:06] I think that depicts more of a holding place rather than hell itself or the lake of fire in this context.
[00:29:14] Ben: Yeah, it could. It's interesting at the very least. And I wish that I had thought more about it or knew more about this. opinion because I hadn't searched much to see if anyone else was really talking about this interpretation and I probably should have.
[00:29:28] Cody: No, it's a good, I missed that going through the outline. It's a good thought.
[00:29:32] Ben: The truth, I only came up with it like a day ago. After looking over the verses that I had written down, I realized there was something there I hadn't noticed before.
[00:29:42] Gina: That's good, and that's the Holy Spirit speaking to you, so.
[00:29:45] Cody: Only if it's right. And that's good for this conversation, too, and I don't think we've outlined it as well as we should, but, um, I think you mentioned earlier, but don't take our word for it. No, please don't take our word for it. Come to your own conclusions.
[00:29:59] Gina: There's like, really, I think three main camps of thought on heaven and hell, and Like, you may fall in between, but it's very sensitive and touchy, and some churches and some theologians take a really intense stance on what happens in the afterlife, and I'm willing to be wrong.
[00:30:18] Cody: I do have to say that, uh, with absolute confidence, I don't think you're going to get a test at the end of your life and what you believed in hell, and that's going to determine whether you are saved or not. That is not what the Bible teaches.
[00:30:33] Ben: Absolutely.
[00:30:34] Cody: Your, your view on hell is not going to determine your salvation.
[00:30:37] It's your. Faith in Christ and Christ's work that determines that.
[00:30:41] Ben: Yeah. And like we said at the very beginning of this episode, there are a lot of people who are very passionate about this particular subject. And to be fair, I think there are people who are passionate about just about every realm of scripture.
[00:30:54] They feel as if you question their particular interpretation or a traditional interpretation of scripture, That your act of questioning means that you are leaving the faith or you are challenging the faith and that's not at all what we're doing. And that's not at all what people who have questions are doing.
[00:31:12] They have questions.
[00:31:13] Gina: All of these conclusions are based on interpretation. You can look at every different opinion on hell and what it is and where it is and who goes there and all of that, what happens there. You can draw your own conclusion. And it might align with somebody else's, but ultimately it's all based on somebody else's interpretation.
[00:31:35] Ben: Now that doesn't mean that there is not truth. There is absolute truth. There is an ultimate answer. And while we all do have our individual interpretations, the best thing for us to do is to accept that we are fallible people, looking at the infallible Word of God, and we are trying to discern the true meaning.
[00:31:53] And we are servants of Christ. You are not someone who can judge someone else's servant. So just keep that in mind if you get really angry the next time someone talks about hell and they mention something, an interpretation, maybe purgatory or something, and you think that sounds silly to you. Now again, it might be good for us to touch briefly on purgatory again, because that is, uh, in a sense tied to this.
[00:32:14] It's both tied to heaven and hell. We covered it in the last episode, but for those of you who weren't with us for that particular episode, there's the Catholic position. And I don't know if the Orthodox churches or the Assyrian church of the East or whatnot also hold the purgatory exists, but it's the idea that once again, there are So, two classifications essentially of sins.
[00:32:33] There's venial sins, which are easy to forgive, and mortal sins, which require a sacrament to cover. If you have sacraments that cover each of your mortal sins, so like you go to mass regularly, then your mortal sins have been covered by God's grace. However, Your venial sins are still with you, and if you commit too many venial sins, there's something in heaven called the treasury of merit.
[00:32:55] And that's where all of the different good deeds of all of the different people who've been heroes of the Bible or Christians, like Mary's good deeds are there, Jesus's good deeds are there. And so if there are not enough good deeds in the treasury of merit to cover over your venial sins, you go to purgatory and you suffer for a certain amount of time so that by the end of it, you have suffered enough to where you are purified and can go to heaven.
[00:33:18] It's a weird, Middle ground between heaven and earth. Do they believe that
[00:33:21] Cody: Jesus's good deeds are also in there? From my understanding, yes. How does it not cover everybody then? It's a way off topic, but I didn't put too into it. So if they believe that Jesus's good works are in this box of goodness, like, how do, how does anybody make it into purgatory?
[00:33:43] Ben: Because everyone else has used those good deeds up. His good deeds are worth a lot, but a lot of people do a lot of bad venial sins.
[00:33:51] Cody: Okay. Sorry to get off track there. I
[00:33:53] Ben: hadn't heard
[00:33:54] Cody: that
[00:33:54] Ben: one
[00:33:55] Cody: before. It's like, Oh, Jesus. Okay.
[00:33:59] Ben: But it's supposed to be that the good deeds of other people cover your good deeds.
[00:34:04] And you can also hold masses, I believe, for people who are dead. And you can give offerings for people who are dead, or at the very least you used to be able to. The idea is that you can get people out of purgatory faster by the people who love you taking certain actions and getting you out sooner. Some people may see this as a similar idea to the abyss, where it's a holding place for people who've sinned, and then when judgment time comes, they're taken out.
[00:34:30] I don't see that as the same thing at all.
[00:34:33] Cody: Agreed. I don't see that as the same at all. Purgatory is completely different.
[00:34:38] Ben: Yeah, it's a place for you to suffer, so that you can go to heaven. Whereas the abyss seems to be a holding place for the people who stand condemned before God. Eventually he will judge them and then they will be cast into the lake of fire.
[00:34:50] But yeah, that does beg the question. The Bible says that the devil will be sent to the lake of fire for all eternity. Will humans be sent there forever as well? And we're starting to get into the territory where there's going to be some disagreement amongst, uh, those of us here. And actually, I'm really looking forward to this, because it's going to be a fun discussion.
[00:35:08] But, we start with Matthew chapter 10, verse 28. And do not fear those who kill the body, but cannot kill the soul. Rather, fear him who can destroy both body and soul in hell. From this verse alone so far, it seems to indicate that destruction of body and soul can happen in hell. So while it is clear, both from Revelation chapter 20, and also from Matthew chapter 10, that humans do go to hell, the question is, do you stay there for all eternity like the devil does?
[00:35:39] And the devil does very clearly stay there forever. It does say that he's tormented there forever. Are humans tormented there forever or are they destroyed?
[00:35:47] Cody: I would say finish out the like traditional view.
[00:35:51] Ben: Okay, so first we'll start, we'll finish with the traditional view. So the traditional view in the Christian faith is that yes, if you are sent to hell, You burn there for all eternity and there's uh, a few verses that can be used to back that up.
[00:36:06] So there's two Thessalonians one, six through nine since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction. Those who afflict you afflicted as well as to us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God. And on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus, they will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.
[00:36:35] So the destruction is eternal. But again, eternal destruction could mean you are destroyed for all of eternity, as in gone. Destruction could be interpreted here to mean you're just suffering a whole lot, but it could also be interpreted as destroyed. But still. That's generally something that's used in defense of, you suffer for all eternity, eternal destruction.
[00:36:56] Then there's Mark chapter 9 verses 47 through 48. And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, where the worm does not die and the fire is not quenched. The fire doesn't die, you're, the worm that is with you never dies, the fire's never quenched.
[00:37:18] It seems to indicate there that you will be suffering for all time. But again, it's not specifically saying that you're going to suffer for all time. It says, the worm does not die, the fire is not quenched, the fire is there for all eternity. And it's tough to say what exactly it means, the worm doesn't die.
[00:37:35] Maybe it's talking about maggots eating your body. It's very unpleasant. Some people have interpreted that way and what do you guys think?
[00:37:41] Cody: Yes, so annihilationism or conditional Atonement, I think is a reasonable position to take not necessarily fact, but it definitely has some biblical weight to it that you can make a reasonable defense of it Um, so starting off on immortality, um, so the, the concept of a soul being a mortal is kind of a platonic, like a Plato philosophy that was introduced through Augustine to the church.
[00:38:14] You get a lot of that influence there, but in Genesis 3, 22. It says, And the Lord God said, The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat and live forever. So right there you have almost a God is sustaining life for man, that it is a continual thing that he has to take.
[00:38:39] So not necessarily immortal from the beginning. So on immortality, um, you have a lot of early church fathers who also had this as this thought and theology, you know, Clement of Rome, Athanasius of Alexandria, Theophilus of Antioch, Irenaeus of Lyons, all corroborate the conditional immortality. Viewpoint, uh, more modern scholars.
[00:39:09] You have John Stott and Fudge all corroborate this as well. And some of the drawbacks or some of the potential touch points that, uh, eternal conscious torment leans on is some of the like eternal fire, uh, scripture. So just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire.
[00:39:36] Serve as an example for undergoing the punishment of eternal fire and that's Jude verse seven doesn't necessarily mean that it is a fire that you will live in for all eternity. The eternal fire here is God, like God is a fire that can't be put out. The fire of God can't be put out and you know this because Sodom and Gomorrah are not still burning to this day.
[00:40:02] that that fire has gone out in Sodom and Gomorrah, but the fire that burned them is not extinguished. And you have another instance of Sodom and Gomorrah of turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes has condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly.
[00:40:22] So that's second Peter two, six, again, pulling on this Sodom and Gomorrah imagery of something that has gone extinct, Sodom and Gomorrah is not there anymore, and that is what's going to happen to the future ungodly. And then, But on the day when Lot went out from Sodom, fire and sulfur rained from heaven and destroyed them all.
[00:40:46] So will it be on the day when the Son of Man is revealed. So again, you have this Sodom and Gomorrah imagery. You have, that's what happened to Sodom is going to happen to the ungodly, and they're going to be destroyed. And that's Luke 17, 29 through 30. And the eternal fire, um, that's depicted as the Lord.
[00:41:09] So the, so, um, there's some scripture for that as well. For the Lord, your God is a consuming fire and a jealous God consuming there being a key factor, Deuteronomy 4, 24. Know therefore today that he who goes over before you as a consuming fire is the Lord, your God. He will destroy them and subdue them before you, so you shall drive them out and make them perish quickly as the Lord has promised.
[00:41:36] Um, another one that the ETC original view or, um, traditional view of hell points on is, uh, Daniel 12 too. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life and some to everlasting contempt. So that, that can be used, um, for the traditional view, but a good analogy of that is, you know, Hitler was very much alive.
[00:42:03] He's surely dead now, but he's also viewed pretty much for the rest of mankind in contempt. He is not living still, but he is still thought of in contempt. That could also be how you could perceive the ungodly going forward. Revelation 21 for he will wipe away every tear from their eyes and death shall be no more neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain anymore for the former things have passed away again that's more of a depiction of heaven but if there is this eternal conscious torment I don't know how those things could for sure be passed away If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through the fire.
[00:42:50] Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's spirit dwells in you? If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy and you are that temple first Corinthians 3 15 through 17 and that one Paul is actually pulling from Isaiah 43 to when you walk through the fire You should not be burned and the flame shall not consume you so that you have that eternal fire God's fire again present and a lot of the original depiction and you know, uh You C.
[00:43:26] S. Lewis is famous for quoting it, that there's a thought that souls are eternal no matter what, and I think there could be good argument that, um, it was introduced by Augustine. He's very influenced by Plato's writings. And that's kind of where the idea of the immortal soul comes from. The idea, though, contradicts Augustine's affirmations on the view of evil, though.
[00:43:49] The notion that evil is not part of reality, but rather a perversion or lack of goodness. Prevation. or lack of goodness. Hell cannot exist in any fashion if the cessation of evil is reality for all of creation. That's going through my notes, but
[00:44:07] Ben: Well, let's walk through some of the stuff that you've read.
[00:44:10] Going back to Genesis and the Tree of Life, were people going to die Before
[00:44:17] Cody: the fall. If cut off from the tree of life, I believe so, yes. You have this depiction of a necessity for the tree of life, whether that's God or something else. So, death was a
[00:44:29] Ben: part of God's design before the fall. It was a potential.
[00:44:33] We're not talking about potential. There was all kinds of potential. Did God design things like humans and animals to die at the beginning? I would think so. Yeah, I mean. The problem is that the book of Revelation talks about death being thrown into the lake of fire, death being an unnatural thing. When Lazarus died, Jesus wept.
[00:44:53] Death is not a good thing in and of itself. God uses death because we live in a fallen world and death now is inevitable. But it seems to me that death was not a part of the Garden of Eden. It wasn't a part of his creation at that time and it was after the fall. And that seems to be the general interpretation.
[00:45:12] That after the fall, death and sin, sin and death. That is the combination that is mentioned throughout the Bible. God conquered sin and death. Jesus conquered sin and death. He has the keys of death and of Hades. Death is an evil thing that needed to be conquered.
[00:45:27] Cody: Yeah, but the command, the first commandment of God is if you eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, on that day you are surely died.
[00:45:35] You shall. Yeah. So death was at least a possibility if disobedient to God's command.
[00:45:43] Ben: Sin was a possibility because the idea, kind of going off of what Augustine said, is that a rejection of God, a rejection of good is what evil is. Once we let sin into the world, then capacity for death was realized. And that's implied by the idea of saying that if you eat of this fruit, you shall die.
[00:46:00] That implies that before that they wouldn't have, or at least you can make that argument. For sure, if they lived in perfection, I don't think they would have died. And that's kind of the point. The idea is prior to that, if they had not sinned, would they have died? If they had stayed with God and had not rebelled in any way, and it said no to the serpent, would they have died?
[00:46:20] No. That's what I was asking. Okay. Once they sinned, then they could suddenly die, right? Once they ate of the fruit,
[00:46:27] Cody: yeah. Yeah, once they
[00:46:28] Ben: ate of the, once they sinned effectively, they died. Prior to this point, they had eternal life. At this point, then they could have had eternal life with sin.
[00:46:37] Cody: So you, they didn't technically have like eternal life.
[00:46:41] They weren't.
[00:46:42] Ben: without creation. I'm talking about going forward. Eventually we are going to have eternal life in Christ. That isn't to say that we exist from everlasting to everlasting. We would live forever going forward. Correct. The point is, how is God treating this? The idea of a person living forever with sin?
[00:47:01] The question is, is he trying to prevent that from happening because that would be torment and wrong and bad. It would be bad for us.
[00:47:09] Cody: The argument could be made there. Yes.
[00:47:11] Ben: Yes. And so I don't think it's clear from the text and from the arguments being presented that automatically it's a blessing for God to allow someone to live forever.
[00:47:23] I think it was for our benefit that God prevented us from living forever with sin. Because hypothetically it was possible if he removed us from the garden and kept us from eating from the tree. That implies that it would have been wrong for us to be able to live forever and also possible for us to live forever with sin.
[00:47:40] And that would be bad. Why would that be bad? I think it would be torture to live for the rest of eternity with sin. And that, in a sense, is what hell arguably is. Living forever with your own sin, with all good things removed, and God withdrawing his presence, and you are consumed by your own negativity.
[00:47:59] All of the bad things that you are without God.
[00:48:02] Cody: So, he's taking away the tree of life so that they can die, but then giving them access to live forever again through the tree of life.
[00:48:12] Ben: Through the proper means. So, the question is, is what exactly do we mean by eternal life in the heavenly sense? Eventually, we die and we are judged.
[00:48:21] And that's kind of the point. We are, in taking the fruit and kind of trying to bypass. This process we would be living forever, but living with our own sin. We don't ultimately know what would have happened if we had access to immortality, but we also were sinful.
[00:48:34] Cody: But how would you make sense of John 3 16 then the you know the gift of You know for God to love the world that he gave his one and only son that whoever believe how shall have eternal life But
[00:48:47] Ben: the question is, what do we mean by eternal life and what do we mean by everlasting destruction and death?
[00:48:52] As we talked about earlier in the podcast, there is a verse in Revelation that specifically says that the devil will be tormented day and night for all eternity. At the very least, we know that the devil is eternal. Is consigned to eternal life quote unquote, but he will be suffering for that entire eternity.
[00:49:10] It's not a true life
[00:49:11] Gina: Sorry, there's also the verse that talks about the devil also Suffering forever with his demons and false prophets.
[00:49:20] Ben: Yes So we know that there are plenty of people who are going to be there suffering for all eternity, right? So making the argument that humans are different But i'm open to the argument about um annihilationism Like, I'm not completely against that, but saying that simply existing for all eternity is eternal life and a reward, thus God wouldn't grant it, looking at Genesis, that's not clear to me.
[00:49:47] It seems to me like God is preventing a horrible mistake on behalf of mankind from being committed because already one has already happened. But through that mistake. There are positive things that can come, and we've kind of talked about that throughout, you know, the various other episodes that we've done.
[00:50:03] The nature of evil and why God would even allow evil to exist, and then the process of sanctification and coming to overcome our sin through the power of Christ. Through Christ and communion with Christ, we can experience true eternal life. He is that life. Without Him, we can't.
[00:50:20] Cody: Why would he not condemn the devil and his angels to face the same death that humans do and be cut off from the life that they currently have?
[00:50:32] Ben: Well, it does talk about them being cast into the abyss, which is the death that we encounter. So, kind of going back to what we talked about earlier in this podcast, Um, it talks about how like the, the souls of people are cast down into the abyss. And it also talks about how demons, when they sinned, were cast down into the abyss.
[00:50:51] So in a sense, like all of us that sin are cast into the same waiting area, so to speak. This is not the eternal lake. This is not the lake of fire, but there is a place that both humans and devils who sinned against God are all alike being held. And like Gina said, we are all destined, those who sin, the devil, demons, the false prophets and the people who are separated out from the believers are all thrown into the lake of fire.
[00:51:17] And so in that sense, we get the same punishment. Now it manifests differently because we're flesh and blood and there's purely spirit. But once we are spirit, we end up in the same place. In both instances, both in the Abyss and in the Lake of Fire.
[00:51:29] Gina: Continue, I have nothing to add.
[00:51:32] Cody: Sounded like you had something to
[00:51:33] Ben: add.
[00:51:34] I think that the crux of the argument kind of centers around two points. The first is to say that eternal life is some kind of reward. That's not apparent to me. From Genesis or talking about the destruction that happens with Sodom and Gomorrah. Like from the eternal destruction that it talks about for Sodom and Gomorrah, I could just as easily see that being a reference to the fact that all of the people in Sodom and Gomorrah were 100 percent evil.
[00:51:59] And that's the point that Abraham was getting from God. If there are even 10 righteous people, there weren't even 10 righteous people. All the righteous people left that city. Every single person in there was bad to the bone, and thus is destined to eternal destruction.
[00:52:12] Gina: You know why I think I want annihilationism to be true?
[00:52:16] You're gonna laugh at me, but in, like, all of the children's movies when we were growing up, they, like, resurrected these bad guys over and over, and it's like, just kill them already!
[00:52:30] Ben: We know that the devil serves a purpose for the time being. And that's the only reason why he's allowed to continue. Once the purpose of evil has been fulfilled, it is cast into the abyss.
[00:52:40] Death is cast into the abyss. Everything, the abyss is cast into the abyss. Everything is cast into the lake of fire. It is destroyed, quote unquote. The big question here is what does that mean? Because the Bible does use the term destruction a number of times. We've already referenced it a few times in this episode.
[00:52:57] And Cody, you brought up a few. additional instances. I think there are enough instances of the term destruction and saying the second death and whatnot to make the argument that eventually these souls will perish. However, that seems to only apply to the human ones because again, it is made abundantly clear that the devil will be tormented day and night for all eternity.
[00:53:22] And granted, that is the only time that we get that. is in that one passage in Revelation. However, we only get one passage in the book of Job that tells us how old Job was when he died. There are plenty of instances where we are only told the one piece of information the one time. And it doesn't discount it that we're only told once.
[00:53:41] If we're told abundantly clearly, Like, there's no contesting what it said, there's no going to the context and trying to figure out if the word in Greek means something different sometimes. We were told twice in two different ways in the same passage. So, the devil is going to be suffering for all eternity along with the demons.
[00:53:58] They are pure spirit. Once we are pure spirit, it also makes sense that we would suffer for all eternity. The question is, do we? And I think there's enough evidence in the Bible to say there's some gray area, maybe we are eventually suffering. In a sense, let off the hook. And I don't know that I would use that term.
[00:54:12] Cody: No,
[00:54:12] Ben: I
[00:54:12] Gina: don't think it's let off the hook because you'd cease to exist.
[00:54:15] Ben: Yeah, that's the thing. I feel like there are a lot of people who they feel like the annihilationist perspective is letting people off the hook that because you're not suffering and conscious of it for all eternity, that somehow this is a better option.
[00:54:28] In a sense, I feel that way. But I, I do feel like it's a merciful option rather than being cognizant and conscious and being unable to move or do anything and just be always suffering with no relief.
[00:54:41] Gina: But think about our generation, like our generation has this crazy desire to remain like known and relevant, to be made irrelevant, to be made insignificant, to not exist.
[00:54:55] That's quite a punishment still mm hmm just food for thought
[00:55:00] Cody: no and and just the the point of this I think is to make it like there's enough terms of things burning up like we're constantly You know the chaff is is used for those who don't believe and that burns up like it has a finite Endpoint and then there's the Sodom and Gomorrah references more than more than one time about you know You This is how it's going to be at the end times and Sodom is not still continually burning right now so I think there is foundation biblically for an annihilationist view do I think that's absolutely correct do I think I'm gonna get quizzed at the end of time whether I believed in eternal conscious torment or annihilationism and it is dogma You know, or if it has anything to do with my salvation, I don't think my view of hell has weight on salvation.
[00:55:57] Ben: Agreed. And it's not that I think that any of your points are bad or anything. Like, it's not that you're making massive jumps or leaps in logic. And it's not even that this is you specifically. You've cited a lot of other people who've taken this position. Some heavy hitters throughout Christian history, honestly.
[00:56:11] And so it's not that it's stupid to believe this. And there was a time where I'd heard this position and thought it was stupid. It's not stupid. There is. argument to it, there's reason behind it, and there is Bible to back it up. But I think my issue with it is that it's taking humans And putting us aside from the devil and his demons and saying that they will suffer for all eternity.
[00:56:36] We will not. It's not that that's impossible. It's just, it seems odd to me that that would be the case. And I don't fully understand why not understanding something is not, you know, evidence for or against, it's just my own personal hangup.
[00:56:50] Cody: We've talked a little bit about. About that though, and like the consequence for like dwelling with God and knowing God should be more severe than, you know, the, the divine hiddenness that humans experience in this life.
[00:57:06] Ben: Yeah. But that is actually taking the position that Annihilationism is mercy.
[00:57:11] Cody: Not necessarily, but it's more a checks and balance. Like there, there is more severe sin than other sin.
[00:57:20] Ben: Well, again, to say that the devil being tormented for all of eternity along with his angels is more severe and thus the punishment is more severe implies that the less severe punishment.
[00:57:32] is being eradicated completely. Yeah, I don't The point is, is that earlier we were talking about how it's tough to say if one is more severe than the other. The argument you're making is that one actually is less severe than the other. And it's not necessarily that I disagree, that could actually be a point in annihilationist favor.
[00:57:51] But, it is taking a definitive position on the idea that one is a merciful gesture.
[00:57:56] Cody: My whole thing is like, annihilation is thought of as like blasphemous, and a lot of people have held it to, you know, there's no biblical foundation, there's no good hermeneutics in an annihilation standpoint, but I disagree with that strongly.
[00:58:13] I think you can come to eternal conscious torment or annihilation from a very biblical standpoint. In both of those camps and still be a very faithful, very hermeneutically driven Christian.
[00:58:28] Ben: I agree. I think this is a rib and not a spine issue. And I do think that you're right, Cody, like you said, we're not going to get a quiz on this before we enter heaven and St.
[00:58:37] Peter's not going to kick us straight down to the abyss if we get it wrong.
[00:58:41] Gina: No, but there's a reason that you guys are having this discussion. And I think it's because you are going, your ministry is only just starting and you are going to have to have this conversation a lot.
[00:58:53] Ben: Probably. Don't count yourself out, Gina, you're going to have to, you're going to have to talk to people about it too.
[00:58:59] Gina: Yeah. But ladies are a little different. Like, we're more emotionally driven and, like, the concerns that I have as a Christian are not necessarily the concerns that you guys have. And that may not always be a gender related thing, but, you know, hell is the ultimate punishment. So, what happens there really, like, is irrelevant to me.
[00:59:19] I'd rather help people not go there than worry about what happens there.
[00:59:25] Cody: Oh, and I think that's why it's beneficial to bring up universalism because at the end of it, whether it's annihilation or eternal conscious torment, I think everybody here agrees that there's no turning back from that once you're in hell or not.
[00:59:42] Um, there, there's some camps of camps of universalism who just believe, you know, God's going to have mercy on everybody and take them straight to heaven. But there's also different camps that believe that when you go to hell, you'll. Burn according to your sin and because God is all merciful, you know after you've paid for your sin You'll end up going to heaven to which is purgatory.
[01:00:03] Yeah, it sounds very much like purgatory without the Catholicism That that is kind of the outlier Um, and, and I don't see scriptural evidence to back that one at all, um, besides the fact that we serve a merciful God.
[01:00:21] Ben: I think the reason there are people who would lean in that direction is because a lot of people find it very difficult to believe a loving God would allow people to suffer for all of eternity.
[01:00:32] I think it's because we don't have a full understanding of the magnitude of what sin actually is, because we don't live with the full consequences of our sin. Like we never have. None of us do. God sees the big picture and He knows exactly what our sins have wrought on the entire world. One single sin was enough to corrupt an entire line coming from Adam and Eve.
[01:00:55] All of us struggle with sin because of them. And that's one. It's one sin. And you can make the argument it was the fruit from the tree and not the sin itself. Well, it was the sin to take the fruit. So, yes, it is tough for us to understand why it is that anyone would be sent to suffer or to be obliterated for all eternity.
[01:01:14] But the reality is, is that the Bible tells us that's what happens. So first and foremost, if the Bible tells you that's what happens and you're a Christian and you take issue with that, you got more issues than just interpretations of hell on you.
[01:01:26] Gina: Yeah, that's, that's a confession issue.
[01:01:29] Ben: Ultimately, the question is, is what is the just action for God to take?
[01:01:33] Sorry, again, I know I reference Nabeel all the time, but in Nabeel Qureshi's book, Seeking Allah, Finding Jesus, he was having a discussion with his friend, Dr. David Wood, about this subject, kind of. And David was talking about the nature of sin. Effectively, when you commit a sin, you are stealing from God.
[01:01:52] What you are stealing from God is a human soul, which is infinitely valuable. You are saying that that is yours. And you are taking what rightfully belongs to God and making it your own. What can you possibly give to God that is infinitely valuable? Infinitely valuable enough to pay for your own life.
[01:02:08] The own soul that you have taken from God. There is nothing. You can't work for all of eternity to pay it off. The closest thing that you can do to pay it off is to suffer in a prison effectively, using human standards. You would throw someone in prison for, you know, An amount of time that makes sense for the value of the thing you have stolen.
[01:02:25] And if what you have stolen is of infinite value, then you are thrown away for all eternity. That would be the call for justice. God is equally just, but also equally merciful. So God has paid that price himself. But you have the choice to accept his substitution for you. Or you can say that you are your own God.
[01:02:43] You are enough. You will take your own life. You will keep it. And then God says, okay, then you accept my judgment. And with judgment comes punishment. Now that may still not be satisfying to a lot of people, I understand, because again, we're talking about eternity, never ending, but that's the nature of it.
[01:03:00] That's what we're told.
[01:03:02] Gina: Thank you so much for taking the time to listen to our podcast today. If you liked what you heard, please feel free to subscribe and share and leave a positive review. And if you would like to connect with us on social media, you can do so on Instagram and Facebook at the logic of God.
[01:03:19] You can also send us an email at main dot the logic of God at gmail. com. Thanks again for listening. We hope you have a great day.
