What is Hell? Part 2
[00:00:00] Cody: Hi, thank you for tuning into the Logic of God podcast. I'm Cody.
[00:00:14] Gina: I'm Gina.
[00:00:15] Cody: And I'm Ben. If you're returning, thank you for listening. Coming back. And if you are a new guest, welcome.
[00:00:30] Ben: I think that all of this conversation centers around one central issue and it's around what would be just, what would be just for God to do? Would it be just for him to allow someone to suffer for all of eternity for their own sins? Or would it be just for him to destroy them?
[00:00:47] Gina: This is like the argument of the, gosh.
[00:00:49] Cody: I don't think that's centered to the argument at all.
[00:00:52] Ben: I think that it's a big aspect of it at the very least, because If it is just for God to do it, it's what he does. But it's just for God to
[00:01:00] Cody: do anything. Like Job and
[00:01:01] Ben: Romans tell us that. It's not just for him to do literally anything. There are things he can't do.
[00:01:07] Gina: But this is like the argument of the atheists that are like, how could a good and loving father wipe out entire civilizations? And how could a good and loving father allow children to die of cancer and
[00:01:19] Ben: or send someone to hell for not believing in him or something like that. Especially
[00:01:23] Gina: if they didn't have the possibility of learning about him.
[00:01:26] Ben: I think that there are a lot of people who take the annihilist perspective and I'm not saying that you do specifically, Cody. But I think there are a lot of people who look at the idea of suffering for all eternity in hell based on human sin. And they really struggle with that idea. Being conscious and suffering for all of eternity.
[00:01:44] And truthfully, it is not a position that I like very much either. I would much of the two prefer that people stop existing after a certain point. Because that seems merciful to me. And God has infinite power. He could very easily do it. Maybe not easily like I don't want to say how difficult something is for God, but it's hypothetically possible.
[00:02:05] It's Conceivable that God could cause people to stop existing and so they wouldn't have to suffer in hell for all eternity
[00:02:13] Gina: Whether they suffer or not the eternal aspect I think the more important focus is that they are eternally communicated from his presence, from his love, from his attention. And whether you are tormented forever or for a time is irrelevant because either way you've lost your father.
[00:02:37] Ben: No matter what, you are absolutely right in that either way you are separated from God for all of eternity. The question really is though, because there are a lot of people who struggle with this. There are a lot of Christians, especially new Christians who hear about the concept of hell and they struggle with it and they think why on earth would God Was God going to send me there if I had died prior to being a Christian?
[00:02:58] Is God going to send my brothers and sisters there? Is God going to send my parents there if they don't find out about Jesus?
[00:03:05] Gina: Yes, and that's something Cody and I actually fought over in our early relationship. Cause I have a sibling that's transgender. And it was very much, you understand, right, that he doesn't believe in God and he is like a sweet, innocent person, but also he is guilty of sin and doesn't believe in God.
[00:03:24] So he would not go to heaven. And I was like, you're wrong. God's not cruel. He can't help it. Like I, I believed a lot of lies and it was very offensive to me. And I literally was like, I don't know if we can be in this relationship if you're going to talk about my brother like that. Spiritual maturity and growing in my faith and learning has helped me to see the truth there.
[00:03:47] But that is not an easy thing to overcome, is knowing that people in your life that you love deeply, that reject the Lord, will not be saved.
[00:03:58] Ben: And I think there are a lot of people who would take comfort in the idea that they won't suffer for long. That eventually their suffering will cease and even if they are suffering in a sense eternal separation from god It is because they won't suffer anymore.
[00:04:11] They're just gone
[00:04:12] Gina: But I believe like in my family's case, I believe that god is so merciful That he could reach them if they had a weak moment. So like it's their responsibility Like no, they're still living right? Like I can't be responsible for You know the salvation of other people. That's Jesus's job.
[00:04:33] And if I'm putting myself in that position where I am personally invested in the salvation of somebody else to the point where I think I control it, then I'm not allowing Jesus to do what he came here for.
[00:04:46] Cody: No, and I think everybody here agrees, and we've talked about, we can't determine anybody's salvation in and of our own.
[00:04:52] Or
[00:04:53] Gina: condemnation. Correct.
[00:04:54] Cody: And we don't know their final position with God. God could reach somebody on their deathbed, that's happened. Not saying that's the case most of the time, but.
[00:05:05] Gina: People also keep their faith secret. So Um, Yeah. In America, it's harder to contextualize that, but in other countries where it's, like, illegal to be a Christian, their relationship is entirely internal.
[00:05:18] Ben: I believe the stat is one out of every four Muslims who comes to the faith comes because of a dream that they had of Jesus. Where Jesus reveals himself to them and he calls to them now There are people who will hear that and say, okay, that's great. But why doesn't he do that to literally everybody?
[00:05:34] It's every time there's a miracle is why doesn't that happen to everybody's
[00:05:37] Gina: merciful? He meets people where they're at and if they're in a hostile environment where Jesus isn't an option Then it makes sense that God would do everything he could to chase them down. Why else would we say he leaves the 99 and chases down the one?
[00:05:52] Ben: But why doesn't he appear in a dream to literally everybody? Like it seems like that would cause everybody to believe. I understand those people who say that at the same time, if God is reaching people through dreams and visions. Then he's doing it and he's doing something beautiful the fact that certain people he doesn't reach that way that bothers you Okay, fine, but he's doing it.
[00:06:10] Gina: One of the things that I love about human nature like There are so many billions of humans that have existed in the history of the world, right? Every single one of them is made in the image of god and there is a unique combination of traits that each one of them has and so Like when you look at the Beatitudes and you look at like the different personalities that Jesus is talking about being blessed everybody is gifted and given a different personality that still aligns with their maker with the triune God and so just because One person is given a vision and they take it at face value and suddenly love Jesus and believe in him.
[00:06:50] Like there are other people like Cody who would have that dream and pick it apart and evaluate it and then maybe even remove the meaning that God had for it because they're so analytical. Like, we can't make it a level playing field, personality wise, because it's not.
[00:07:06] Ben: And at that point, you would be guilty of an even greater sin than if he had never reached you at all.
[00:07:11] So, yeah, we do sometimes forget, some of us as Christians, I think our Calvinist brothers listening to this would be like, oh yeah, obviously, you dummies, he's sovereign. But for those of us who aren't so Calvinist in our leanings, it's important to remember that God is ultimately sovereign. God knows, whatever it is that you're struggling with, he knows you better than you know yourself.
[00:07:32] I think there are some conversations here that are very tough to have. There are conversations about children. At what age are they accountable for the things that they do wrong? Are newborn infants sent off to hell?
[00:07:44] Gina: Unborn infants.
[00:07:46] Ben: Are unborn infants sent off to hell? Are seven year olds, eight year olds, nine year olds?
[00:07:51] At what point are they held accountable? What about people who've literally never heard of Jesus at all? What about
[00:07:57] Gina: special needs?
[00:07:58] Ben: What about people who were alive at the time of Christ, but lived on the other end of the world? What about them? They had literally no way of finding out about Jesus until long after the fact.
[00:08:10] There are individual passages to help us out here. In terms of children, how many times did Jesus, in reference to children, say, you must become like a child to enter the kingdom of God? There was a point in one of the Gospels, actually a few of the Gospels, I think, where Jesus literally took a child, brought it amongst the midst of the disciples, when they were saying, who among us is the greatest?
[00:08:30] And Jesus says, look at this kid, whoever is like you, Whoever is like this kid,
[00:08:35] Gina: the kingdom of God,
[00:08:36] Ben: belongs to such as these. Jesus loved children. Yes, we don't have any solid answers, 100 percent satisfactory answers to that end. Jesus loves them. You know that he does. He made that abundantly clear.
[00:08:51] Gina: And he put special guardrails in place for protecting children in scripture.
[00:08:57] Ben: And he literally says that, Whoever is responsible for leading one of these little ones astray, it would be better off if they had a millstone tied around their neck and be thrown into the sea. Jesus loves the little children. All the little children of the world. Red and yellow, black and white, they are precious and it's, yeah, we have the song.
[00:09:17] We know.
[00:09:18] Gina: Oh my gosh, that's Shiloh Sings, Who Built the Ark. No. No, she says no one.
[00:09:23] Ben: Oh.
[00:09:24] Gina: Sorry. Totally off topic.
[00:09:26] Ben: Those Darwinian interpretations of Genesis are really getting to her. But, yeah, that isn't to say that there aren't some difficult questions that the Bible doesn't give us 100 percent satisfactory answers on.
[00:09:39] The Bible doesn't tell us what happens to people who've literally never heard about Jesus. There's one throwaway line about people who are, the gospel being preached to those who are now dead, and I wouldn't build a theology on that. And the Bible doesn't tell us specifically what happens to children, though it makes it abundantly clear that Jesus loves children.
[00:09:57] And we don't have a cutoff point signed up in the Bible about when, if there is an age of accountability and if there is, when it applies.
[00:10:03] Gina: Listen, Jesus was teaching in the synagogue at 12. We know.
[00:10:07] Ben: Basically. What we do know is that God is both good and just. Whatever the answers end up being when we finally get into heaven, it is enough for you to be still and know that he is God.
[00:10:21] Where were you when he laid the foundations of the earth? That he knows. He knows better than all of us. And so, when we finally get there, if he sees fit to give us an explanation, and we're not owed an explanation, if he did sit us down and explained everything, we would see that it had to be this way.
[00:10:37] And there was no better way to do it. Just because we don't know, doesn't mean that's not the truth. And that sucks. It's terrible to get that answer. None of us wants that answer. That's the biggest takeaway I've gotten from Job.
[00:10:49] Gina: We don't like being told, because I said so.
[00:10:52] Ben: And that's literally what, that is the moral of the story in Job.
[00:10:55] It's because I said so. Yeah, Paul says that in Romans somewhere too, basically. Yeah, but who are you, a human being, to question God? And every time I read that portion in Romans, I roll my eyes and, thanks, Paul. Crap. Come on, Paul. All that is to say, as it pertains to this specific question about whether this human soul is annihilated in hell or allowed to persist for all eternity, there are people who struggle with this particular aspect because one side seems unjust.
[00:11:26] I think a lot of people really do think, how could you possibly justify
[00:11:33] Gina: How many books in the Bible quantify how many books warn you of what your fate will be if you don't believe?
[00:11:41] Ben: But for the people who've never read that, they don't know.
[00:11:44] Gina: No, I know, but you look at why people are called into evangelistic ministry and, like, why people become missionaries and there are corners of the world that are forbidden to know Jesus now, but Statistically speaking, America is receiving a lot of missionaries from places that we used to go as missionaries, as Americans.
[00:12:10] So that excuse kind of flounders for me just because, We live in an age of technology, we have people listening to Catching Foxes in, like, countries in the world that are considered third world countries that really don't even have cell phone towers and running water. So it's hard to believe that it's not possible for the message of Christ to be spread pretty much everywhere.
[00:12:40] Ben: But it wasn't always that way. No,
[00:12:41] Gina: not always. But now, like, I think we're running out of excuses.
[00:12:46] Ben: Absolutely. At the very least in the modern times, it's tough to imagine someone who hasn't at the very least heard of Jesus. But even there are a lot of people who struggle with the idea that let's say that everyone has heard of Jesus.
[00:12:57] There are people in this world who live perfectly decent lives, who are very pleasant to everyone else around them, and who maybe go to church twice a year, but are otherwise pretty decent people. Maybe they've had sex outside of marriage. And maybe they cuss every once in a while. And maybe they cheat on their taxes maybe once or twice.
[00:13:15] But it's not as if they're going around murdering anybody. And they die, they're supposed to go to hell because they didn't really know Jesus. They didn't really confess with their mouth Jesus is Lord. But they were culturally Christian?
[00:13:28] Cody: The sacrifice that Jesus made demands more of a response than that.
[00:13:33] So if you've heard about Jesus and what he sacrificed for you, there, there is a level of response that is demanded from that sacrifice. It's like when somebody, you're newly dating and you say, I love you for the first time. I love you usually demands a response. That response, what most people want back is I love you back, not I love you.
[00:13:58] And Gina was to say, I like you, like,
[00:14:01] Gina: just thank you.
[00:14:02] Cody: Yeah, just thank you. Like, that is not the same. Like, that is not what was demanded by the I love you. You're expecting something in return for that. And I, We can't not see that in the sacrifice of Jesus.
[00:14:16] Gina: It's more than just a cross. We have this verse, I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.
[00:14:22] We interpret that culturally as, I can do anything. I can walk on water. I can turn water into wine. I can perform the miracles of Jesus because Jesus did. But that's not really, I think, what it's saying. If you look at the walk that Jesus took with a tree on his back before he was crucified, to be hated and spit on and ridiculed and tortured and beaten, lots being taken for his belongings and clothing and his family and friends and followers standing by in horror or just totally denying his existence.
[00:14:54] If Jesus can go through that kind of torment, I can literally experience anything that this world can throw at me, that the devil can throw at me because he could do it in a way that made sure that my future was secure. Like, I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me because I get strength from that walk and from that crucifixion.
[00:15:15] It should not be about me elevating myself to the level of Jesus.
[00:15:20] Ben: I believe I've mentioned this story before, but in case I haven't, or for those of you who haven't Back when my brother Jacob was alive, he was in A relationship, an adulterous relationship with a married woman. Now, this married woman's husband was aware of this relationship, and this married woman had a consensual relationship with a consensual man being my brother.
[00:15:41] Now, my family was very aware of this, and we were aware of the fact that it was a very unhealthy, not good relationship. Modern culture would say that because it's consensual and everyone's aware of it, and the husband's not being lied to, and he's allowing it to happen, that obviously, There's nothing wrong there.
[00:15:57] Modern culture would say, that's just fine. Maybe there are some consequences somewhere in there, but overall, it's not the worst thing ever. However, it would, it was something that drove a wedge between him and me and my parents. And at first we were very harsh and it would come up a lot and there would be a lot of very angry words said.
[00:16:17] Eventually that changed and there was a very different atmosphere. And eventually my father, who was very adamantly against it, started to have a much better relationship with me. With my brother Jacob and they patched things up, but no matter how much we patched up that Relationship drove a wedge between us and it was not possible to get past it And it was a wedge that drove us farther and farther apart despite the fact that we repeatedly told him that we loved him and he Knew it And he loved us, but that wedge just eventually forced us to the point where he left and he went up to Daytona Beach, and that was where he died.
[00:16:54] Despite the fact that we loved him, despite the fact that God loved him. Despite the fact that otherwise he would have seemed like a perfectly wonderful guy, and there was not a person who had a bad word to say about him at his funeral. Believe me, I get it. But, sin is sin. It's a horrible thing. It's a corrupting thing.
[00:17:09] It will tear apart your life. And to say that just because you don't see the depth of destruction that your sin causes to Christ himself, to God himself, you don't see the pain that causes, you don't see the furthest reaching issues. It doesn't mean it's not there. And yeah, so what? You haven't killed somebody.
[00:17:28] How many times have you wanted to kill somebody? How many times have you had the opportunity to do it? Or how many times has it made sense?
[00:17:35] Gina: How many times have you used your mouth for the power of death? Like, we know our voice has the power of life and death. Like, it's not just murder because you killed their body.
[00:17:47] You can kill their spirit.
[00:17:48] Ben: Absolutely. You don't know what effect your words have had. And I have not once, ever in my entire life, been a pirate. I have not gone on the high seas and killed people for gold on the high seas. Do I get virtue points for that? No. I have never been in a position where that would have been reasonable for me.
[00:18:11] I have never killed someone for food. That does not make me virtuous. There are people who were starving during the Second World War in France, in Germany. There were people who had reason to kill for food and didn't. There were people who would have been killed for hiding somebody. Hiding a Jew. Hiding a gypsy.
[00:18:29] Hiding somebody who, according to the German government, deserved death. Those people are virtuous for that. I've never hunted anybody. I never had a reason to. Why would I be counted as righteous for something I haven't done because I had no reason to? People look at virtue today and say I haven't done anything wrong.
[00:18:47] Why would you have needed or wanted to do any of those things? You're not virtuous because you haven't done those things. You haven't been tempted to. But what in your life have you been tempted to do that is wrong and you've said yes? What standard do you use for other people that you don't use for yourself?
[00:19:03] That's what the Bible warns. The standard you use for others will be used against you. If you don't want to use God's standard, fine. He'll use yours. But you gotta be careful because it's the one you're using for someone else.
[00:19:15] Gina: And it's gonna land you in eternal separation, destruction, torment, whatever camp you're in.
[00:19:21] Either way, you lose God. You lose your eternity with God in a place where there's no weeping and no sickness and no death. We had this conversation like during like our little dinner about how like it's really hard to have this conversation with a new believer because You don't want to influence them to fear going to hell so much that their relationship with God is solely based on that Because how can you really have faith and love?
[00:19:47] When you're just basically like, I'm going to check the boxes so that I don't go there.
[00:19:52] Ben: And there have been Christians I've heard of who started from the position of, I don't want to go to hell. That can be something that sends you in the right direction, but it can't be the reason you love. But yeah, I do think that there are a lot of people who use that fire and brimstone, like the whole, if you don't, if you don't believe you don't love, you're going to die and suffer eternal torment.
[00:20:13] Gina: It's sad because like I was not raised Christian, so. My experiences as an adult, but it seems like there's two camps in like the American Protestant kind of maybe megachurch scene where it's either, we don't talk about hell or we're going to preach it like in your face. And I haven't really seen it in between.
[00:20:40] And I think that conversation is really lacking because without a solid understanding of God's expectations. And I think that And the kind of full life, like a lot of people think, Oh, if I become a Christian, it's so limiting because then I can't do the things that the Bible forbids, but really it's not limiting.
[00:20:58] And I think we need more. pastors and more teachers explaining the boundaries and the benefits from a perspective of new believers because it's very overwhelming and it can cause defensiveness to have the fire and brimstone lecture, but then it also creates this like Really big lack of like morality when you don't talk about it at all.
[00:21:22] Ben: I think there are a lot of people who view evil vices as Options as freedom and to become a Christian is to leave your freedom behind in reality The Bible treats evil much more as a drug if you're a person who is addicted to a drug and you were thinking I can't get off the drug because then I won't be free Free to do what?
[00:21:49] Those of us who live in sin are slaves to it. Your sin is the thing that's determining what you do, how you think, the way you spend your time. To become a slave to Christ is oddly enough to become free. To become a slave to responsibility, to a higher calling, is to not only have greater understanding for the evil you're rejecting, but to finally understand the alternative.
[00:22:12] And that doesn't mean you'll never turn back to evil. That's part of the choice that you now have. Suddenly you're not a slave to sin, but you can turn back to it. It's not good that you do it, but suddenly you have much more of a choice. It's what Paul talks about, where once he understands evil, he was much more capable of it, and he understood the damage of even the most minute evil.
[00:22:33] Gina: It's really hard for me. Once you wake up to sin, it's really hard to go back to sleep. There were so many things I had wrong before I knew Jesus. And it doesn't make me more virtuous because I'll have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and I still sin. There are character flaws that I have. I'm very judgmental.
[00:22:51] I'm very quick to get angry. I have road rage, and it is what it is. But, like, I have to take those thoughts captive and fight with myself. Like, I'm at war with my flesh. And that's very biblical. And we know that, you know, The world is going to hate us and the devil is going to come after us. There's so many things that we know about following Jesus.
[00:23:15] So even though the burden is easy and the yoke is light and all of that, it's not easy to be a Christian. It's the harder option, but ultimately the payout is greater and the confidence in yourself and the love that you have that is from Christ is so much more meaningful. Like it is truly transformative kind of a love.
[00:23:37] And the way that you look at other people and the way that you look at the world and creation and God and like it is worth it to make that decision.
[00:23:46] Ben: And I think in many ways, the reason Jesus says that his yoke is light is because the yoke that is not his is unbearable. It isn't that it isn't difficult to be a Christian.
[00:23:58] It's that if you live a life without purpose, you can't live.
[00:24:01] Gina: He ain't talking about here.
[00:24:03] Ben: So last episode, Cody went into his opinion on conditional immortality. We had a little bit of a back and forth. And I went into my, I don't even know that I'd say my opinion necessarily, but the direction I've leaned for most of my life, which is the more traditional view of hell.
[00:24:18] But Gina actually has her own kind of interpretation of things. Not necessarily of just hell, but I think more the lake of fire and how that's going to come about.
[00:24:28] Gina: Yeah, so Cody and I have spent a lot of time in our marriage like studying together and just, I don't know, like I've looked over his shoulder and absorbed information and There's no real, uh, like explanation or source for why I believe this, like I can't back it up with factual information or defined scripture.
[00:24:48] There's some stuff in Apocrypha that kind of aligns with it, but there's nothing that I've really ever found in the Bible that's confirmed or denied what I think, other than just a couple of short verses that could be taken in pretty much like five different directions. So it's hard for me to justify.
[00:25:07] My view, but my active imagination likes to have this view.
[00:25:13] Cody: So what's the view?
[00:25:14] Gina: Just that, like, when Jesus comes back, people will be judged. And those who are not saved will burn and suffer. And it will be here on Earth. I don't necessarily think that there's, like, another place called Hell. I feel like the soul might go somewhere else, but, like, the burning portion, I think, is here.
[00:25:35] If that makes sense.
[00:25:37] Cody: So once the earth, or would it be like as soon as everything's burned up, your soul like is now that's the outer darkness?
[00:25:45] Gina: Kind of, yeah. Okay. It's hard to explain, but.
[00:25:49] Ben: So what's your basis for this?
[00:25:51] Gina: So, basically, Cody did this revelation study with his men's group last year and we went to Israel and I started doing the revelation study in February and we went to Israel in March and one of the things that stood out to me that the pastor who was leading the study on the YouTube videos talked about, which was Dan Plourd, talked about the process of the burning and revelation, and to me, it didn't sound like, There was like a transportation happening that some people think like they go to hell, but it seemed like to me they stay here.
[00:26:30] It talks a lot about the current earth burning up and going away.
[00:26:34] Ben: So where does it discuss that?
[00:26:35] Gina: Isaiah 51 6 says lift up your eyes to the heavens and look at the earth beneath for the heavens vanish like smoke the earth will wear out like a garment and they who dwell in it will die in like manner but my salvation will be forever and my righteousness will never be dismayed.
[00:26:52] Also in two Peter three 10 it says, but the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved. And the earth and the works that are on it will be exposed. Talks about the earth passing away a lot in Revelation and in Matthew 24 35, heaven and Earth will pass away.
[00:27:14] But my words will never pass away. I don't know if that answers it.
[00:27:19] Ben: Definitely there are individual pieces there that you could say allude to Potentially what you're talking about the earth itself becoming hell eventually
[00:27:29] Gina: just because of the like way it lines up with Like scriptures talking about the earth burning up and passing away and ceasing to exist and if the earth is going to burn It makes sense to me that those who are being judged on the earth will also burn with it.
[00:27:44] Ben: I think there are a lot of people who take the position that there's, you know, the new Jerusalem that is created and then that would be put on the current earth. But this isn't the first time that Gina's actually brought up this opinion. We've talked about it a bit and I've done some ruminating on it.
[00:28:01] And honestly, while initially I was dismissive, which is one of the reasons why we're doing this I really shouldn't have been because Some of the scripture that you actually brought up is a bit more firmly in your court than I think you may believe. For instance, you talked about 2 Peter, uh, I'll read verses 9, 10, and 11, real quick here.
[00:28:23] Gina: Okay.
[00:28:24] Ben: The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead, he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar, and the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.
[00:28:46] Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives. He reaffirms what you read in verse 10 in verse 11. Since everything will be destroyed, he's not being poetic there. He's literally saying that everything on earth and in heaven is going to be destroyed.
[00:29:07] And this is something that I never really noticed being mentioned a few times in the New Testament. It says the world in its current form is passing away. They use that terminology a few times. I don't remember exactly where.
[00:29:20] Gina: There's Matthew 24, 35 talks about that. Revelation 21, 1 talks about that. And then 65, Isaiah 65, 17 talks about that.
[00:29:32] Ben: And I think the traditional view interprets that to mean, yes, like, eventually everything on earth is going to be different. Like, the events in Revelation will devastate the earth, everything is going to be destroyed, like the whole population is going
[00:29:48] Gina: And I'm not good at breaking down Revelation by any means.
[00:29:51] Like I'm not, it's not easy for me to articulate end times or hell because I feared studying it until about like 18 months ago. I'm not super confident in explaining it, but I do feel like it's valid. It's just hard for me to
[00:30:08] Cody: Yeah, there's a lot, like Revelation 21. 1, Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.
[00:30:18] Then there's Isaiah 65. 17, For behold, I create a new heavens and a new earth, and the former things shall not be remembered or come into mind.
[00:30:28] Ben: Yeah. So, I don't think you give yourself quite enough credit here, Gina. I think that you had a pretty strong intuition on this. And I think that intuition is, I don't know if it's right, honestly, but there's a lot in the Bible that makes it clear that what exists right now will pass away.
[00:30:44] It's going to be gone and something new is going to take its place. And so the question is what happens to that old that passes away? It does make sense that the old that passes away is going to be the lake of fire because we're told that it's going to be destroyed by fire.
[00:31:00] Gina: It just has made sense to me.
[00:31:02] We're the Logic of God podcast. It's logical to me that it's all one in the same because it's not clear that to me, it's not clear that, that it would be two separate things.
[00:31:15] Ben: So is there anything more that you were basing this off of? Cause as it turns out, there's a decent amount of Bible to back it up.
[00:31:20] Gina: Yeah. There's some stuff in like extra biblical texts, which again, I'm not extremely well versed in, but Cody has read a couple of things to me from Enoch and then reading and Siroc, if that's how you pronounce it. But reading it in Sirach, it talks a little bit about it as well. So knowing the context of when things were written and how reliable they might be is helpful for reading extra biblical texts and it's not gospel, but it is helpful for me like it feels affirming.
[00:31:55] Cody: In the Sirach is Deuterocanon, so like it's in some Christian Bibles, i. e. the Catholics
[00:32:06] Maybe
[00:32:07] Ben: the Syrian Church of the East?
[00:32:08] Cody: There's a few others, and basically anybody that's not a Protestant, I think, actually has that in there.
[00:32:16] Gina: It's a really cool book.
[00:32:17] Cody: And it's not canon, but It's a reliable source in the sense, like, it's not, the pseudepigrapha is given a bad name because usually, um, that's somebody's trying to place somebody else's name on the book to give themselves more weight in their writing to catch on faster.
[00:32:39] But Sirach, the Wisdom of Bensirah, he's writing to the Hellenistic Jews at the time. If he's coming to those thoughts, like, it reaffirms that you're not the first one to come up with this, and it limits the crazy that's there that you could think. Like, you're not alone in your thinking.
[00:32:58] Gina: If I think about end times in the crazy layers, it's overwhelming.
[00:33:05] And this is where my brain took me. It's helped me to stabilize a little bit in processing it because it's not, it's like heavy and dark to think about people like burning and, um, Being judged and all of that
[00:33:19] Ben: and it's tough to imagine God completely destroying this world But then on the exact same one Rebuilding it And there are individual elements about the New Jerusalem that don't make much sense if you view them in the context of the same heaven and same earth, like the same universe that we exist in right now being the place where the New Jerusalem is.
[00:33:43] It's like the portion in Revelation that talks about how there will be no sun, God is going to be the light. Okay, so what happens to the Sun? Is he gonna explode it? Is it not gonna matter? Is he basically just saying it doesn't matter, there's not gonna be a day or night, because he'll just be there all the time, but the Sun's still gonna be there?
[00:34:00] Like, what's the reasoning behind that? And it does make sense if we're going to a new place that's specifically made around this idea that God is the true center of our universe, like physically and spiritually. That does make sense. Now that doesn't mean that because it makes sense, it's true. But like I said before, I was dismissive of your opinion on this originally, because it's outside of the standard interpretation.
[00:34:27] And I think it's still a valid interpretation. And the more I think about it, the more I lean towards it possibly being right.
[00:34:35] Gina: Thanks.
[00:34:36] Ben: No problem.
[00:34:37] Gina: No, honestly, it's hard because like I'm a first generation Christian. I wasn't, we were just talking about this. Like I wasn't raised in the church the way that you guys were in.
[00:34:45] My foundation isn't as deep. And so I come to certain conclusions like just reading and it's helpful. But then also it's, is that true? And I've had to like process with Cody and with trusted friends and see what I think. After I've put some study into it, but being newer in my faith, it's hard not to have like a weird imagination sometimes, but I'm glad I'm, I feel validated and after studying, I felt validated and like it helped me to feel like secure and like the Holy Spirit helping me interpret whether it's right or wrong ultimately is out of my control.
[00:35:26] But you know the thing that makes me sad about the earth like burning up and passing away is like there's so many beautiful parts of creation I've never gotten to see and I want to, I just want to.
[00:35:38] Cody: But he's gonna make it new and better.
[00:35:40] Gina: Yeah, he will, but is it gonna be the same? We don't know.
[00:35:44] Ben: There's an interesting article related to this that C.
[00:35:47] S. Lewis once wrote. There's a lot of people who, when thinking about the rapture, think, I sure hope it doesn't come now. I've got so many things I want to do. Yes, you are definitely going to write that novel that you've always been planning on doing but never have, and maybe compose that symphony that you definitely are never going to do.
[00:36:07] Like, the glory that's waiting for us in heaven is infinitely greater than what we have here, and the new world that takes the place of this old one is infinitely greater in beauty and splendor than the one we have now. Yeah, it's tough because there is absolutely beauty in the world we have now. And there are echoes of the grandeur of creation that we had at the start that are still here.
[00:36:31] I hold to a literal view of Genesis and the things that I've seen from guys like Dr. Kurt Weiss and Dr. Steve Austin and Dr. Andrew Snelling. It reveals an earth now that's still recovering from the flood. Like, you have the tops of mountains that have been sheared off and vibrated 50 miles away from their bases, and the earth still settling and groaning because of this punishment that was once enacted through it.
[00:36:57] There's beauty in that, but at the same time, the earth as it exists now is not anything like what it once was when God made it good.
[00:37:04] Gina: It's still so pretty.
[00:37:05] Ben: It is. There's a lot of beauty in it still.
[00:37:08] Cody: Yeah, but how much more beautiful was it? I was about to say beautiful er.
[00:37:13] Gina: Listen, we live in a fallen world.
[00:37:16] Ben: That we do. But all that is to say, Gina, I feel like There is a tendency for people who've been Christians for a long time to shut down questions that come their way that, that seem to question fundamental assumptions that we have. The whole reason that we laid out the five core assumptions is because that's what That's the mere Christianity.
[00:37:39] That's the base level that we all need to agree on before we continue forward in our discussion on Christ. And I think that all of us take a lot more than those base assumptions, especially those of us who grew up in Christianity.
[00:37:51] Gina: Yeah, because you get Other people's opinions like imposed on you. And when you're young and like impressionable, it's easy, especially for the younger generations.
[00:38:02] Now it's easy just to take someone's word for it. And so a lot of what we've formed are, you know, theology on as Christians now is more like what pastors and famous people have said or acted in movies or done on TV than it is actual scripture. And so knowing that I got where I got from just study, like reading the Bible, asking my husband, who's wiser than me, and then just, you know, looking at it objectively without any other input.
[00:38:33] Like, it brought me to that conclusion where I feel comfortable.
[00:38:38] Cody: And it's off topic, but something I've struggled with in, you know, approaching scripture. Are we supposed to approach scripture with presuppositions that we have? If we're truly going to be doing good hermeneutics and exegesis, like, are we supposed to bring our presuppositions to that text?
[00:38:58] And, uh, the obvious answer is no to that, but it is very hard to remove yourself from that situation.
[00:39:05] Ben: There have to be some presuppositions that you take in. Like, the idea that you can test Scripture. How do you test Scripture? You have to use some measure of reason. And reason, while it comes from God, is not explicitly something you get from the Bible.
[00:39:22] Reason is something that you have to use that is yours and you apply it to the Bible now your reason can be faulty But you can still test the Bible with it and you can learn the faults in your own reason and logic That's part of life experience But the point is that there are instances in scripture where it says that Jesus proved from the scriptures It was proved proof Involves reason and explanation and understanding.
[00:39:48] And all of those things are things that people who aren't Christians have. And it's one of the ways by which we bring people into the faith. Through appealing to reason and understanding and logic. But there's also appeals to emotion. And we have to also be able to understand emotion to understand the Bible.
[00:40:04] Because there are appeals to emotion in the Bible. There are very emotional, beautiful, and terrifying things that happen. So, obviously there are things that we take into consideration. our exegesis and our hermeneutics, but at the same time, we have to be careful what it is that we take in because I think sometimes we take doctrine automatically as read before we even start seeing if it's true.
[00:40:28] Gina: It's like Cody and I were reading Galatians. And all of this stuff, like we were reading together and all of this stuff, we were like, I didn't know that. I didn't realize that Paul said things that we didn't realize Paul had ever would have ever said, or would have even been in the Bible. Like, He was a tough cookie.
[00:40:49] And I think sometimes we go in with our presuppositions or like whatever sermon we heard last and that's what we believe. And then suddenly we're studying and all these details come. And so it's not necessarily the foundational presupposition that's the issue. It's the things that start coming to you through the Holy Spirit through reading and interpreting and studying.
[00:41:12] Not just reading but studying and then you get like these details which gives you a much richer picture than just some sermon you heard
[00:41:19] Ben: And I think there are a lot of Christians today who have something of a simplicity bias like the simplest you can make The text in the Bible is probably where the truth is.
[00:41:31] So there's a lot of consolidation of these different terms. You have Hades and Sheol and the abyss and the lake of fire. And we consolidate all of those into one thing because it's the simplest. And it feels like there's no need for anything else. It's just, okay. The ultimate place of punishment, obviously that's hell and bad people go to hell.
[00:41:53] Well, eventually
[00:41:54] Gina: the idea, I don't need to worry about that. Cause that doesn't affect me.
[00:41:58] Ben: That is so common. It's, sadly, extremely common. I can't believe how often I hear that. It doesn't matter. I don't read the Old Testament. It doesn't affect me. And I don't care about Revelation because it doesn't affect me.
[00:42:11] Like, it'll happen no matter what. Why does it matter?
[00:42:13] Gina: But you learn so much about God. Like his character. Cause if you're really chasing a relationship, like we talked about in the last episode we recorded, which is actually our next episode, we talked about the hunger for knowledge and like what we use it for and what.
[00:42:31] Our actual like pursuit is And if your pursuit is knowledge of the lord so that you have a relationship with the lord You have to read that stuff
[00:42:41] Cody: it's hard like people look at the Old testament and it's hard to connect with a lot of it. It takes a lot more effort because a lot of study now, and people are realizing more and more the importance of getting into not just a context of scripture, but like a historical and cultural context of what those people were thinking and what these idioms or different ways of expressing situations in the Old Testament.
[00:43:13] had a much bigger impact because it was directly speaking to how they view the world, how the ancient person
[00:43:20] Ben: sees the world. And I think that there is a general attitude amongst modern people when looking at people in the past and we think they were just stupid.
[00:43:28] Cody: Oh, yeah. Doesn't make sense. I would have never done that.
[00:43:31] I found myself doing that. The Israelites going through all of the ups and downs. Oh, they're stupid. I would have never turned away from God and same with the disciples. These guys were
[00:43:42] Ben: thick.
[00:43:43] Gina: Jesus is right there
[00:43:44] Cody: telling. Then you're like, Oh crap. I do that all the time.
[00:43:48] Gina: Yeah. But they're still stupid.
[00:43:50] Cody: Aren't we all?
[00:43:51] Gina: I get so mad reading about the Israelites.
[00:43:55] Cody: Yeah. They didn't have iPhones. So they were definitely. Stupid.
[00:43:58] Gina: We are programmed to be stupid in our era because, like, you Google something and it tells you the truth and then you can trust it and that's it. But thousands of years ago, like, you had to memorize scripture, like, all of it, if you wanted to know it and share it.
[00:44:15] and teach it.
[00:44:16] Cody: Common practice as a Jewish person was to study.
[00:44:21] Gina: And now we're like standing up on a stage with our 11 year old. We don't have an 11 year old, but this is an example. I know John 3, 16. I know Jeremiah 29, 11. And we're so proud of that. And that has nothing to do with the general meaning of scripture.
[00:44:36] Ben: When I'm sure someone is listening to this and thinking, okay, but you three, are you guys all, you memorize all the scripture and no, it's not that we have. an amazing command of knowledge of scripture.
[00:44:47] Gina: Hardly. For me, no.
[00:44:49] Ben: It's again, going back to, I love quoting C. S. Lewis. Everyone loves quoting. C. S. Lewis himself would have also agreed he was not a master of scripture, but he wrote an analysis of the Psalms, and in the analysis of the Psalms, he says there's a lot of value.
[00:45:02] In people who are learning, sharing the things that they've learned. And he was still a fairly new Christian at that point. He came to Christ very late in his life. But he accomplished an insane amount in the fairly short time that he was a Christian. And so for us, again, going back to your view on health, Gina, it's very humbling.
[00:45:22] The fact that I can learn things from someone who has not been studying this nearly as long as I have. Seriously, it's not to say this in an insulting way. The Bible says God uses the foolish things of this world to shame the wise. That doesn't mean that I think that you're foolish or anything, but it's that people who don't have extensive exposure or knowledge about the Bible, God can use those people to teach the people who have all of that, who have every advantage and should know, but don't.
[00:45:50] And that's a beautiful thing. It's an example of the power of Christ, and it's wonderful. And I hope that going forward, both I and the Church generally don't try to squash that. Every time we hear a question, To something that we think is fundamental, but really doesn't have to be.
[00:46:05] Cody: Yeah.
[00:46:05] Gina: There's a lot of times where Cody's, I need to know.
[00:46:09] And I'm like, but it doesn't change anything.
[00:46:12] Cody: No, it doesn't, but
[00:46:14] Ben: I still need to know. The Bible talks about these things for a reason. Like going back to what we were saying earlier with some people just saying, I don't need to know. I'm not going to hell. I don't need to know. The truth is that the more I've looked into this and the more we've talked about it, the more I see that the potential answers to these questions can help a lot of people who struggle coming to the Lord because they see all the evil happening in the world and they hear the idea that they go straight to hell.
[00:46:43] And they think, why? Why would God do that? If he loves me, why would he do any of this? And the truth is that a lot of the views on these different subjects, hell especially, as it turns out, it was a lot more complicated than I ever thought. I always thought for the longest time, it's just the one place.
[00:47:00] And then you guys talk to me about it potentially being more than one place. And I thought that's dumb because I have this, the simplicity bias, simplest thing is the easiest thing. And also it doesn't affect me. But it could be that there's more than one place for a very good reason, and we'll go into that.
[00:47:17] Gina: Thank you so much for taking the time to listen to our podcast today. If you liked what you heard, please feel free to subscribe and share and leave a positive review. And if you would like to connect with us on social media, you can do so on Instagram and Facebook at the logic of God. You can also send us an email at main.
[00:47:36] thelogicofgod at gmail. com. Thanks again for listening, we hope you have a great day.
