What is Hermeneutics?

[00:00:00] Cody: Hi, thank you for tuning in to the Logic of God podcast. I'm Cody. 


[00:00:08] I'm Gina. 


[00:00:09] Cody: And I'm Ben. If you're returning, thank you for coming back and if you are a new guest, welcome. 


[00:00:25] Okay so last week we covered the kind of basics of why you should study your Bible. And a little bit of how you do that, but we're going to go more into the hermeneutical process, which is just a fancy way of a outline structured way to study your Bible. 


[00:00:50] Gina: But I like just the whole like, okay, magic book. 


[00:00:53] I'm going to open you to a random page. Tell me what I need to know for the day. 


[00:00:57] Cody: Would that be considered cherry picking? Okay. Okay. Nobody ever does that. 


[00:01:03] Gina: Who would do that? 


[00:01:04] Ben: Well, I think that's actually a decent place to start. So, could you in theory just just Open up your Bible and trust that the Lord is going to lead you to a place in there that'll speak to you and then read the Bible that way. 


[00:01:15] Even study the Bible that way. Just go to random points and then, you know, follow the little lowercase b that sends you to the footnote that sends you to someplace else in the Bible. Like, in theory, that should send you somewhere, right? 


[00:01:26] Gina: If you read the footnote. If you understand the context. Like, if you don't have those two things. 


[00:01:33] And you're just like, he makes me lay down in green pastures and he has a plan for me to prosper me. And you don't understand who that's to or why, then it is kind of irrelevant to your Christian walk. 


[00:01:46] Cody: You mean the Bible wasn't written specifically for me? 


[00:01:51] Gina: Well, no. What? It's a very romantic love letter from the Lord directly to you. 


[00:02:00] Only, not me, not Ben, you. 


[00:02:02] Cody: Yeah, those promises are mine. 


[00:02:04] Gina: Uh huh. 


[00:02:04] Cody: He forgot about me when he wrote it. Her, too. 


[00:02:08] Ben: They're just for me. Sorry, Gina. So unfair. 


[00:02:12] Cody: No, so getting into the structure of Bible study, do you think that it is appropriate to, right, even like Ben said, you randomly pick things, but then that leads to a footnote and then the footnote leads you to the Old Testament. 


[00:02:30] Then the Old Testament leads you to, you know, maybe a specific prophet and then that prophet leads you to another prophet and then it leads you back to the New Testament. Is that Bible study? Is that a good way to structure a study? 


[00:02:44] Gina: For somebody as chaotic as me, like that is. That's how I learned how to read the Bible, is doing the whole, like it started as cherry picking and then it kind of evolved into, well, but what is that really? 


[00:02:56] Because you and I would have conversations and you'd poke me and be like, are you sure that's what that means? And then I would go back and look and it led me in different directions. And so like, that's how I learned to read the Bible as a person who became a Christian as an adult. I don't necessarily think it's the best start to reading the Bible, but I still learned. 


[00:03:18] understood God's character more. I just don't think it was as structured and as analytical as it probably should have been. 


[00:03:25] Ben: Yeah, I think last week we covered where you might want to start reading the Bible if you're a new Christian. That's not necessarily where you're going to start studying. Like, I guess that does lead into another question, which is when should you start studying the Bible? 


[00:03:38] Should you do your best to just read it and appreciate the Bible first? Should you read and study at the same time? Or should you be dedicated to Learning that the culture and context first and then read the Bible 


[00:03:51] Gina: that kind of brings to mind the the parable of the sower and The soil preparation so you kind of start out with the milk so to speak and then you develop you cultivate and you get deeper And deeper so you stop taking your pastor's word for it and you start talking to people about it through discipleship and fellowship And then you take it a step further and you open your Bible and then you're like, okay The Bible says this and then you go to understand it and it becomes study. 


[00:04:15] And it's sort of like, you know, getting yourself into this situation where your house is built on a firm foundation and all of that. That was multiple parables in one sentence though. 


[00:04:25] Cody: Yeah. So you got the parable of the soils, you got, you know, Paul talking about the milk and solid food. 


[00:04:34] Gina: Yeah. Sorry about that. 


[00:04:35] Cody: That's why you need to study your Bible so you know what she's talking about. 


[00:04:40] Ben: Well, yeah, but Gina, you did mention, you didn't start trying to learn Hebrew culture first or Jewish culture or anything about Judaism first. You started reading the Bible first, right? 


[00:04:51] Gina: I started allowing my pastor to tell me what the Bible said. 


[00:04:56] And then I went into a couple of different Bible studies with that pastor. And we went line by line, and Mark was the first one. And that was really my first exposure to a Bible study. Back then, I didn't do it how I do it now. 


[00:05:10] Ben: Well, yeah, so if you had to go back and do it again, hypothetically, like someone's in your shoes and is just coming into it, what would you advise somebody just getting into it? 


[00:05:20] Because we've already gone into reading the Bible, but how would you suggest someone start studying? Setting aside hermeneutics just for a second, Mm hmm. The starting point for study, would you say read the Bible first or study and read at the same time? 


[00:05:32] Gina: I would say you're not going to have success studying the Bible without wise counsel. 


[00:05:38] So you have to have somebody that's able to kind of guide you because if you, if you read the Bible. And you're like, I was, you're going to make everything emotional and you're going to take it like personal and it's not all personal and it's not all literal and it's not all about you. So like you have to have somebody who's, who's willing to kind of push you in that, because as a new believer, it's very easy to like misunderstand. 


[00:06:04] And so I, I don't know, I think it's, you have to have. People around you who really do know how to read the Bible whether it's like a friend or a spouse or whatever you have to have somebody that can kind of push you outside of your understanding because what you glean from the Bible the very first time that you read it isn't probably actually the realistic meaning of what the Bible says. 


[00:06:28] Cody: I would agree with that, and one of the first things they covered in the hermeneutics class at Moody was kind of what outside factors influence this, and the first thing that you need to welcome in is obviously the Holy Spirit, um, just to help you with those types of interpretations and how you should read the Bible. 


[00:06:51] But community was another one, and that's community that is teaching you, so who is discipling you or at least talking to you about this. But later on in life, community is more than that, it's where you're teaching as well. But those were kind of the, the first main factors in, in the hermeneutical processes, the illumination of scripture and welcoming in the Holy Spirit to help with interpretation. 


[00:07:16] Gina: I mean, you could have 10 different people in a room reading Jeremiah 29 11 and it means something different to each one of them and it doesn't even actually mean what the Bible means that it means. So without context and a teachable spirit and wise counsel, you're never really going to get the most out of it. 


[00:07:32] Cody: How would you recommend people find wise counsel? Do you think they should look in their local church? Because if you look for wise counsel of the people who use Jeremiah 29 11 for the prosperity gospel, that wouldn't be wise counsel. So how would somebody who doesn't know what wise counsel looks like in a biblical, like, scholarly form. 


[00:07:58] Ben: Well, real quick, before we go any further, there are probably going to be people who hear you quoting the, the chapter verse from Jeremiah and not know what it's about. So would you mind expounding a little bit on what you're talking about? 


[00:08:09] Gina: Well, the first says, for I know the plans I have for you, plans to prosper you and not harm you. 


[00:08:15] And that verse is very popular in the prosperity gospel you. It gives this like false illusion of God wanting to, you know, rain down money on people or secure financial security. 


[00:08:28] Ben: So that's the prosperity gospel. 


[00:08:29] Gina: Yeah. 


[00:08:30] Ben: It's the idea that God wants to give you material wealth and material goods. And if you just let him do it, then he's going to make you wealthy beyond your wildest dreams. 


[00:08:40] That's what he wants for you. 


[00:08:41] Gina: Right. And then you get a private jet and a Range Rover and a 500 t shirt. 


[00:08:46] Ben: It's 


[00:08:46] Gina: part of the package. 


[00:08:48] Ben: So that is a very good example. How would you find your The right person to speak into your life, specifically about chapters and verses like that, where people will come into your life and say, No, that doesn't mean something that you would expect it to mean. 


[00:09:01] It means that God wants to give you everything. He wants to make you super wealthy. He wants to give you power and influence and everything that you've ever dreamed of. Forget all the people who've died in poverty in Christianity. Forget all but one of the disciples. Who died horrible, gruesome deaths and forget about John, who probably died in exile of old age, like forget all that God actually wants to make you rich. 


[00:09:22] Gina: I mean, okay. So first of all, you have to be aware of your own emotional and financial and just interpersonal standing. So if you're in a situation where you're struggling financially and you've gone into a church because. you think, okay, this is my last attempt. I don't know what else to do. God help me. 


[00:09:47] Um, and then you hear Jeremiah 29, 11, and you're like, really? Wow. Like, I know so many people who have done that. And then God has not made them rich. And they're like, well, God must not love me. So you have to be aware of like the heart that you're receiving things in, because if you don't acknowledge, like I'm struggling or I'm sad or whatever, then You're not going to be receiving the word the way that you're supposed to. 


[00:10:12] You're going to interpret it through a lens that is absolutely not what God is intending. And so I think being aware of your mindset, first of all, is very important, but I think also if you're in a church that is telling you that God wants you to be rich, you also need to know that. You know, God says you can't love him and money. 


[00:10:30] So it is very contradictory, but seeking wise counsel, you know, we could get into a discussion about denominations and how they all believe different things. And you're going to get, you know, 10 different churches with 10 different interpretations. But honestly, I think that seeking wise counsel requires. 


[00:10:50] Having discernment and prayer. You cannot just like lay your pearls before swine. You need to guard yourself You need to protect your heart, but you also do need somebody that's ahead of you So a good tell for somebody that's like a mature Christian would be somebody that understands spiritual disciplines Um, somebody who understands Bible study outside of just reading some book that a pastor wrote and calling it a Bible study. 


[00:11:15] There's a lot of different good signs. The first person that I met that I knew was really a mature Christian was somebody who wrote down her prayers. And then like read back on them to see where God answered them and journaled about it. She read her Bible and her Bible was full of sticky notes and writing and highlights. 


[00:11:36] And you could tell that she had spent a lot of time really understanding what God was talking about. She used different hermeneutical methods, like using, um, the interlinear Bibles and the blue letter Bible and the concordance. And she was just an encyclopedia of knowledge. And she was not a scholar. She wasn't a theologian. 


[00:11:56] She was just a really humble, sweet, older lady that took me under her wing. So I think, you know, you have to look for red flags. Red flags would be somebody who has a Bible that's never been touched or somebody that relies on the Bible app instead of a paper Bible. Like there's a lot of, a lot of red flags. 


[00:12:12] I don't know if that answers your question. 


[00:12:14] Cody: What would you say? Like, how would you go about trying to think about yourself in it as a new Christian? I know. That's probably harder for us, but 


[00:12:23] Ben: yeah, it's tougher for me because I've never been in that position. Like I've been a Christian essentially my whole life. 


[00:12:29] I can't remember a time where I wasn't, but what I would recommend, it can be very tough when you're a brand new Christian to find somebody and know that they know what they're talking about. You could even be listening to us and think these guys definitely know what they're talking about. We don't know everything but there are certain Christian authors. 


[00:12:48] Who've written about a lot of the subjects that you're going to question and most of these guys are well known throughout all denominations Whether you're Catholic or Protestant or Greek Orthodox Everybody knows them and loves them and like we've referenced C. S. Lewis a whole bunch of times and there are other authors I can't think off the top of my head. 


[00:13:05] I mentioned Nabeel all the time. I mentioned Dr. David Wood and then there are pastors who are actually very well accepted. Guys like Dan Plourd and Mike Winger and And you may not agree with them on everything, and you shouldn't. But I think it's helpful to take in the perspectives of a bunch of different well known and well respected Christian men, who are respected throughout all the denominations, and take their perspectives, compare them to one another, see where they line up. 


[00:13:30] And then see where they differ. So, in answer to the first question, should you study the Bible at the same time you're reading it? In a sense, yes. I don't think you'll go so deep into the hermeneutical side of things, or at least I don't know that you should. There are some people who are very intellectually stimulated, like, you know, Cody and I, and we really love the analytical side of things. 


[00:13:51] But for the people who aren't quite that, And I think that's most people. 


[00:13:54] Gina: Well, I'm more relational. So you're very analytical. I'm more relational. 


[00:13:58] Ben: So even with something like that, for just a kind of broad net to try to throw out to everybody, like there are the additional authors outside of the Bible who can give you some very pre foundational material, like mere Christianity is one of those things that everyone is told to read. 


[00:14:14] And that is pre foundational stuff. That is C. S. Lewis looking at, okay, what can we discern about God before we even look at the And so through that, you can get a foundation on which you can build the foundation through which you can do a hermeneutical analysis of the Bible. 


[00:14:31] Gina: And I think it's worth remembering, no matter what stage you're in in your walk, like, every single person in the world is flawed and has sinned. 


[00:14:39] So like if you're putting somebody on a pedestal that wrote a book or gave a sermon that you really liked, um, just remember that they may not have ended well, or they may have been controversial for whatever reason, and you're not necessarily going to agree with everything they say, and you're not probably supposed to agree with everything they say or do. 


[00:14:59] So it's like, you know, you can be a diehard, fan of, you know, Wesley, and then also really like stuff that is about Calvin. And that doesn't make you a horrible person or confused. It just means that you're very well rounded in your education as a Christian. And that's okay. 


[00:15:16] Cody: I mean, it's like Anything you want to know, different viewpoints. 


[00:15:20] If you're only consuming people who think like you, then you're not gonna grow very much in your walk or your, um, journey. And that's how it is. Like if, if you play sports at the same level that you currently are, you're not gonna grow at all. And unless you're pushing your. 


[00:15:38] Gina: That's why you took ballroom dancing, right? 


[00:15:42] You can't you can dance 


[00:15:43] Ben: in three quarter time you can do the waltz the foxtrot Tell me you can do salsa salsa 


[00:15:51] But you you mentioned earlier Gina about starting with milk before solid food. And I think that is an important thing to remember. You're not expected to jump into biblical study immediately going, okay, I need to learn biblical Greek, or I need to learn Aramaic or biblical Hebrew. 


[00:16:09] Like, you're not expected to do all of that. The first thing you need to know is the firm foundation. You have to have a reason for your faith. And there's a reason why we spent the last. I don't know, eight, nine, ten episodes establishing the central assumptions that we have. Going into it, you do need to have a grasp of those five assumptions as a Christian. 


[00:16:29] You need to know why you believe God exists. You need to know why you believe that He's good. You do need to know why you believe that He loves you. You do need to know why you believe that Jesus Christ came and died for your sins. And you do need to know why you even bother with the Bible to begin with. 


[00:16:47] Once you have answers to all of those five questions, you're actually in a pretty good spot to start diving deeper. See, that's what I would say. 


[00:16:55] Gina: No, I agree. 


[00:16:56] Cody: No, yeah, that's, that's very good. I was gonna ask you, do you find that there's a difference between Bible study and devotion time? 


[00:17:04] Ben: Uh, yeah, yeah, actually, I would say so. 


[00:17:07] It may be a fine line. I know I mention Nabeel all the time, but there was the point where he was becoming a Christian and he was reading through Matthew. And he was having, essentially, a conversation with God through the book of Matthew, where, I've mentioned it a thousand times, but it's like he was saying that, if I convert to Christianity, it'll hurt my parents. 


[00:17:25] And then there's the line in Matthew where Jesus said, whoever loves their mother or father more than me is not worthy of me. And so, you kind of joked before that, you know, the book was written for you. In some ways it is. And God can use the living word, and that's what we call it, to speak directly to you. 


[00:17:40] Now don't assume you can control that. Don't assume that you can demand God speak to you the way he spoke to Nabeel. Don't just open up the Bible and say whatever it is I see, that's what God is telling me right now. There was a time where I tried to do that, too. It doesn't work. Like, God is not a slot machine. 


[00:17:56] He's not a vending machine. You can't just make demands of Him and then expect those demands to be met. But if you're genuinely calling out to Him and you're spending time in prayer and pouring over His Word, He may actually use parts of the Bible that were written for a very specific purpose for actually a separate purpose. 


[00:18:11] Because, yeah, those things in Matthew weren't written specifically for Nabeel and yet they were. So, I would say when you're taking devotional time versus, like, actually studying the Bible. When you're studying the Bible, you are looking to take the Bible in its full context. Not trying to let God speak to you in a fully unique way, but trying to figure out why the Bible is unique. 


[00:18:34] And you're trying to look at it for what it truly is. So yeah, there is that distinction. And God can still speak to you through the study of the Bible. And there are beautiful things that he can reveal to you about the eternalness of his word and the trustworthiness of what he's passed on to us. That's what I would say. 


[00:18:47] There is a difference, but God can still speak to you through both. 


[00:18:50] Cody: Yep. No, I would agree for sure. What about you? Do you find that you do a devotion and a Bible study, or are they one and the same? 


[00:18:59] Gina: I view devotion time as having the Word of God, the Bible, but also having input either from like a devotional book or app or there's like a specific goal that I have for devotion. 


[00:19:16] It would be like to focus or to pray for something specific, or I'm stressed out and so I'm doing a stress devotion. Like, it's different than studying the Word because the time that I spend studying is my time of getting to know God personally. Like, my time spent on devotion has more to do with my earthly life. 


[00:19:36] Cody: I think that's a good way to put it. 


[00:19:38] Gina: Oh, I had a question. I'm sorry, I don't want to interrupt you. No, you're fine. If you could name some ways, like, like there's lecto divina as one, like, are you aware of other methods that people use to read the Bible? 


[00:19:50] Ben: I think that actually launches really well into hermeneutics itself, because we've kind of danced around it a little bit. 


[00:19:56] But Cody, Gina, you guys actually have a much clearer picture of full hermeneutics than I do. Unfortunately, my method of studying the Bible is kind of scattershot. Like, I'll do my regular reading, and then throughout the day, because I work at home on my computer, I'll just be, you know, marathoning tons of different stuff with no real focus, and there are a bunch of, like, absolutely brilliant people who've done a lot of in depth Bible studies on a lot of different things, and I won't be focused or intentional, really. 


[00:20:21] I'll just be consuming and consuming and consuming, and then I'll sprout it out whenever it's relevant. I don't think that that's the wisest approach. So, how exactly would you do, A hermeneutical study of the Bible. What is that? 


[00:20:32] Cody: So, there's lots of different hermeneutical approaches. And, and like you said, there's lots of, it's, it's basically just a Bible study method, or a stricter process. 


[00:20:42] So, you said Electo Divina, that's, could basically fit into a type of hermeneutic. But, like, our church teaches the SOAP method, which I believe is like Scripture Observation Application and Prayer. And you would go into each verse that you read and like, okay, what does the scripture say? Okay, what is, what am I observing here in this scripture? 


[00:21:02] Okay, how do I apply this scripture to my life? Okay, now I'm going to pray on it. So that would be a very, very basic hermeneutic. The general structure of what they taught at Moody was you start with prayer. You can't. You can't. properly interpret scripture the way that the Holy Spirit or the authors originally intended it if they're not going to be present for that time. 


[00:21:28] So you welcome in the Holy Spirit to help with the interpretation of scripture. Then after that you read everything in a literal approach. So the Bible is generally read literally unless it's clear that it's not, or brings you to a reason not to read it literally. Then you'll get into more of the context of the scripture, like who was it written for, who was it written to, who was it written by, where was it written, what was going on in that culture at that time. 


[00:22:00] And that is a, you know, further step into the hermeneutical process of reading your Bible. 


[00:22:06] Ben: Let's, um, let's rewind a little bit, because you said a few things that we might want to unpack. So there's the point where you talked about how first we address it as literal, and then when we come to a point where it's clear that we shouldn't take it as literal, then you can do a few other things to kind of break it down. 


[00:22:22] So how do you know when something is literal versus when it's meant to be taken as poetic or figurative? 


[00:22:28] Cody: And that's another, inside the hermeneutical process, there's what's called finding out the genre. So, like, historical genre, you can usually, like the genealogies, that's gonna be a historical genre. Or the exodus from Egypt into the promised land, that's gonna be a historical genre. 


[00:22:48] You might have some different genres inside that, but generally historical. Then you have psalms, that's a poetic genre. Then you have stuff like the End of Daniel and Revelations, that's going to be apocalyptic genre, and there's all these different types of genre, and that's going to be a good way to tell you how to view that. 


[00:23:07] If it's a historical genre, you're going to, you're going to be looking at that definitely from a more literal lens, but you know, when you're reading apocalyptic genre, um, John uses a lot of likes, like, you know, it was like. this or it was like that. So that's more of a interpretive process that you have to put into that. 


[00:23:29] Gina: I just wanted to know how you know what genre. Do you just Google it? 


[00:23:32] Cody: I mean, Google can be your friend in that, but you know, if you look at the structure of it, I mean, if genealogy is going to be literal. Well, that, 


[00:23:43] Ben: that one is a bit tough. Yeah, genre is tough. So, I think there are some where it's obvious what kind of genre it is. 


[00:23:50] Like the Psalms, or Proverbs, or Ecclesiastes, or Song of Solomon. I think all of those, it's pretty clear what genre they are supposed to be. But then, there's been kind of a movement that's happened in the past hundred years or so to say that Genesis, while once taken as historical, at the very least up until Abraham, is being taken as figurative or poetry, or it's meant to be some kind of analogy to something. 


[00:24:14] How would you tell if Genesis is supposed to be historical or not? 


[00:24:18] Cody: In Moses writings, what did he write that was not literal? In any other sense. 


[00:24:25] Ben: Well, apparently they think that the first several chapters of Genesis. 


[00:24:30] Cody: Well, so that's why that's one of the processes, like who wrote it. Okay. The first five books of the Bible are Moses. 


[00:24:37] So, what are their other works? So Genesis is the first book of the Bible. It's written by Moses. Okay, what else did Moses write? So he wrote the first five books. So you have Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy, and 


[00:24:53] Gina: Numbers. You did it out of order. Yeah, I did. He saved it 


[00:24:57] Ben: for last because he knows it makes me miffed. 


[00:25:01] Everybody. You task me, sir. I don't appreciate it. 


[00:25:07] Cody: Um, but so you have those and, you know, okay, you can look at his literary style. Like what does Moses write in? Like Jesus spoke in a lot of parables. That would be his kind of teaching style, but what is the writing style of Moses? Does he have a lot of parables? 


[00:25:25] prophetic stuff in his writings. So you got to kind of take it as a whole to, you know, see the arc of each book and, and what that looks like. And, you know, is there a lot of other different types of genres inside of Moses's writings? Generally not. 


[00:25:42] Ben: I do think one of the hang ups, aside from the seeming conflict between Genesis and the scientific community at large, I think there are some people who have hang ups with the fact that Genesis does have more of a poetic sound to it. 


[00:25:57] Like, there's the repeated, and there was evening, and there was morning, the first day, evening and morning, second day, so on and so forth. It does have kind of a poetic sound to it, and then there's a snake that shows up, and it's like, is it a literal snake? And then there are different parts of the Bible where it refers to the snake as the devil. 


[00:26:13] So, there's something that's figurative, unless the devil literally showed up as a snake. And maybe he did, maybe he didn't. So seemingly there are things that are symbolic, and even if you take it as history, we do have a lot of typology, where we say that there are certain things, typology is essentially the idea that there are essentially symbols in the Old Testament that reflect the coming of Christ. 


[00:26:36] So there's the sacrifice of Isaac that Abraham was going to do, and God says, no, I will provide the sacrifice. There are multiple levels to it, but essentially it's the idea that God will sacrifice his own child. Abraham does not have to sacrifice his. And there's a lot of that kind of thing. That's typology. 


[00:26:53] It's a representation, not always just of Christ. There's, I think in Isaiah, there's reference to the king of Tyre that may also be a reference to the devil. We're not sure. But. Yeah, so, it's tough looking at Genesis, because you're right, there is a lot in Genesis that seems to indicate that it is historical, and I think that's why generally people will say, okay, Abraham, at the very least, from then on, it's historical. 


[00:27:17] I do have to take the pretty firm stance that Genesis is definitely meant to be taken historically. Aside from the fact that only in the last hundred years have we decided to make it not literal, and there are some exceptions. I think there were, there was like one guy who said, no, God just made everything in one day. 


[00:27:33] Oh gosh, yeah. I forget, I forget who, was that Augustine? I can't remember. I 


[00:27:39] Cody: don't think it was Augustine, but it was one of those, somebody you wouldn't think. 


[00:27:44] Ben: Yeah, it was, it was weird. It's one of those guys who you feel like he'd know better. And I say know better, like he, he's done more for Christianity than I have. 


[00:27:51] But he wanted 


[00:27:52] Gina: to make a name for himself, you guys. 


[00:27:54] Ben: He just wanted to throw out something edgy there. I guess all, all publicity is good 


[00:27:59] Cody: publicity. 


[00:28:00] Ben: But aside from the fact that. Most all Jews and all Christians up until you know the last hundred years all agreed that it was historical There's also the idea that there's the genealogy that's included in Genesis and you're told The father and the son and the father and the son. 


[00:28:17] And not only are you told that you're told how long they lived and how old they were when they had their son who carried on the family name. And so there have been attempts to explain that saying that the number of years that they lived was symbolic, but that doesn't really make a lot of sense. 


[00:28:34] because you see that there's a change in the number of years that people live after the flood. And even when you get to Moses, Moses lived 120 years, which is, you know, pretty sprightly, pretty old. 


[00:28:46] Cody: Especially for their medical advancements back then were not, uh, like today's. 


[00:28:51] Ben: No. And I believe Isaac lived to about 200, 200. 


[00:28:54] I'm sorry, folks. I should have really checked this. But the idea is, is that there's a lot of people who lived much longer than the natural human lifespan. And that's something that Genesis says. And you can't just say, well, it's. allegorical and not have a good explanation as to why the numbers of years were given. 


[00:29:10] And you can also have to have a good explanation aside from just saying, well, it's scientific to say that Genesis is not literal, at least up until the point of Abraham. 


[00:29:19] Gina: My favorite thing about the Genesis argument, and pretty much any interpretive argument in scripture, is like, ultimately it doesn't really affect your salvation. 


[00:29:29] Ben: Agreed. 


[00:29:30] Gina: So it's like, when you accept that, and it's like, Ben and I can disagree on how old the earth is, biblically. And yet still come to the same conclusion that we're both going to heaven. And that's, I think what makes these conversations so entertaining and enjoyable is just knowing, like, we may not always agree on these differences. 


[00:29:49] And so like for somebody who's a new Christian, like if your church expects you to say yes, sir, and not ask any questions, that's a cult that you're in. Cause like being able to debate it is one of the most beautiful things about the Bible. And I think it's part of what unifies. God's people is just having these discussions that, um, ultimately draw us closer to him and help us to know him better. 


[00:30:13] So I think it's really fun to study these things and to discuss them, but I also think it needs to be mentioned that like, if you understand your salvation and your relationship with Jesus, it really has no bearing on where you're going. It truly is just like an endeavor to know God better and to know his people better and love them better. 


[00:30:32] Ben: Again, there's a reason that we started the Logic of God series with essential assumptions and not saying, okay, we're going to start at the beginning of the Bible, Genesis, and here's what it means and here's how you need to interpret it. And if you don't, you're a mean, stinky doodoo head and you're definitely not a Christian. 


[00:30:47] No, there are people like, um, Kent Hovine. I do have a lot of respect for him and the work that he did, you know, 20, 30 years ago. And he did at one time, I don't know if he still has this feeling, but he did, you know, State at one point that if you did not believe in a young earth and you were not a Christian And I don't believe that I believe that that's a horrible way to talk to your fellow christian And I don't think that that's a doctrine that you need to believe in order to be saved I think it really is the five core principles You believe God exists, you believe He's good, you believe He loves you, you believe He came in the form of Jesus Christ, and you believe He speaks to us through Scripture. 


[00:31:21] Now obviously that last point is the thing that we're talking about right now, the interpretation and study of Scripture. And there are going to be things that we disagree on because we're all coming into this not just with those five central assumptions, but we're coming into it with additional assumptions on top of that. 


[00:31:36] And we're trying to make all of these assumptions mesh. And that can drastically interfere with your experience when you're studying the Bible, because you're not just looking at everything with pure 100 percent logic. You're bringing your own emotions into it, and sometimes, even if you are looking at it logically, you're coming in with faulty presuppositions that will color the way you're looking at things. 


[00:31:58] And unfortunately, all of us have those. 


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