Why Are There So Many Doctrines?

[00:00:00] Cody: Hi, thank you for tuning in to the Logic of God podcast. I'm Cody. 


[00:00:14] Gina: I'm Gina. 


[00:00:15] Cody: And I'm Ben. You're returning. Thank you for coming back. And if you are a new guest, welcome. 


[00:00:33] Ben: We've covered finding a church. We've covered some of the different denominations. We haven't gone too deep in yet. Thank you But going from denominations and now into doctrines, what would you guys say is the reason for all the different doctrines that we have? Like, why are there so many different conflicting doctrines in Christianity? 


[00:00:52] I can understand some differences, but there are some that directly conflict with one another. 


[00:00:58] Gina: Satan. 


[00:01:00] And 


[00:01:00] Gina: I'm not being flippant. Like, I think there are certain things that get, idolized and attended to that are kind of off the beaten path and they make, make people feel good or give people a certain level of power or control. 


[00:01:15] But ultimately it deviates pretty far from what scripture tells us and what we know to be true. I 


[00:01:21] Cody: think there's lots of reasons. Maturity level of Christian, I think, plays a big role on how you interpret the Bible. And I think there's just a lot of poor hermeneutics and not, not necessarily a meaning to have bad Bible interpretations, but sanctification is a process. 


[00:01:41] You can't get it all right the first go around, so. 


[00:01:44] Gina: Unless you make your own version of the Bible. 


[00:01:46] Cody: Some people have. 


[00:01:47] Ben: We'll get to that. Don't get ahead of us. I will say there were times when I was younger where I believed very specific things because I would be going through the Bible and I'd see something and I would think, okay, that has to be 100 percent true. 


[00:01:59] And I think I know exactly what the Bible is saying. And then years later, I kind of softened on it. And then years later, after that, I may have changed my position again. I think the best example of that for me personally would be There's this idea taught in some Christian churches that once you are a Christian, you are just a Christian forever. 


[00:02:17] You can't possibly lose your salvation. Your name is written in the Lamb's Book of Life, and there is no eraser on that pen. That's what I was told. 


[00:02:24] It's in ink. 


[00:02:25] Ben: It's in ink. It's in permanent marker. There is no eraser. 


[00:02:30] Cody: What about whiteout? 


[00:02:31] Ben: Okay, maybe there might be whiteout. And oddly enough, there is a section, I think it was specifically for Moses, where he talks about his name being blotted out. 


[00:02:39] I can't remember who it was. I wish I could remember. But yeah, there is a passage in the Bible talking about The speaker's name being blotted out from the book of life. And that was something that I had read later. And that was something that another pastor had told me when I was talking to him about the subject. 


[00:02:54] And so that gave me pause. And then I also thought about, so there are different people who claim to be Christian and then went on to do horrible things. And we talked about Ravi Zacharias, and I have no doubt that there was a point in his ministry where he was genuine, but then eventually he started doing very terribly corrupt things. 


[00:03:12] And that does beg the question, is Ravi still saved? Now, ultimately his salvation is in the hands of God, but we can expand that out further and create the general question. Is it possible for you to fall away from salvation? Now, this isn't what the episode is specifically about. The point is, is that through different seasons in our lives, certain things will make sense to us, whether or not they're true. 


[00:03:32] And then as we move out of those seasons, New questions will be introduced to our thinking, and our minds are renewed, and we think about the same question differently, and that doesn't mean that we weren't right the first time. Sometimes we're led out of certain thinking. Another example of that would be homosexuality. 


[00:03:47] There was a point where I believed it was genuinely wrong when I was younger. I got older, then I thought, well, it doesn't really matter, and now I'm at the point I am in my life where I say, no, it does matter. But dogmatically angry. And that was not the right way to approach it. And so you can even go back to doctrines that you believed earlier, but you can approach them differently in a healthy way. 


[00:04:08] Gina: I agree with that. But let me ask a question because this is something that weighs on me a little bit. Just being a younger Christian than you guys, do you have to agree and adhere to all of the doctrine within your own Church, like your building church that you go to, not your big C church, or is it disloyal or does it not make sense to not agree? 


[00:04:32] What would be like an acceptable amount of disagreement to still qualify in that house as being that religion? If that makes sense. 


[00:04:44] Ben: It does. I think starting out, if you were to talk to, all of the members of an individual congregation, you would find that they actually do have disagreements. Not that the, I would even use SFIRMA term as disagreement, it's that there are certain questions that a number of members will have thought about and other members wouldn't have. 


[00:05:02] And so you ask them the question, and then on the spot, without really knowing, they'll give a specific answer. But then, the actual position of the church itself might be different, or the actual position of the pastor might be different from a lot of the members of his congregation. And that isn't to say that he's never taught about it before. 


[00:05:18] Sometimes there are newer members to the church, and sometimes there are, you know, sermons that you just don't remember. So, at the softest level, it's that you either just don't know, or you have questions on things that you don't remember. You may be leaning in a different direction from your church generally. 


[00:05:33] And so you can voice those concerns and you should voice those concerns as far as dramatic differences, like say you're going to a Calvinist church and you don't believe in Calvinism at all. Well, that's a pretty fundamental core principle there. And you may be right and they may be wrong, or they may be right and you may be wrong. 


[00:05:51] If you're going to be getting constantly in the pastor's face and saying that he's wrong, that's a problem, and you really need to find another church, but it's deeper than that, that's a personal issue. You should be able to have pretty deep disagreements on certain things, but still be able to get something out of the church and still be able to show respect. 


[00:06:09] It doesn't mean you should stay in the place. Because, yeah, if there is a fundamental thing taught by that church that you disagree with, you probably should find a church that agrees with the fundamental things that you believe. But that does also beg the question, how much challenging should you take to your own fundamental beliefs? 


[00:06:25] There are some people who get a question to their fundamentals and it shakes them to the point where they leave the church. And then there are other people who get questioned on their fundamentals and then they take that to heart and they think, okay, I really should have thought of this more. It does depend on the individual. 


[00:06:38] So, yeah, talking. To the people who may be listening, you really do need to know yourself. So yeah, if you're going to say a Baptist church right now, and then you're hearing this, you think, oh, I should really read up on what Baptists believe. And then you start looking at what your specific subgroup of Baptists believe. 


[00:06:53] And you think, oh, wow, I don't believe in any of this. Well, take the opportunity to actually ask your pastor why, why it is that the church is taking that position on it, and then walk it through. And you can be respectful about that. And you can even permanently disagree. He may not convince you of anything. 


[00:07:07] It's still okay. 


[00:07:08] Gina: I have a follow up. So, when a person says, I feel peace about this conviction or belief, is it sufficient to rely on that feeling to hold something as true? 


[00:07:26] Cody: Is that feeling conflicting with something the Bible says? 


[00:07:29] Gina: Well, this isn't for me personally, this is to make a point. 


[00:07:33] Cody: So, you know, if you read that adultery is a bad thing, and then you feel this great conviction to, you know, go sleep with somebody else, is that okay? 


[00:07:46] Gina: Well, no, that's not really what I'm referring to. It's more like, I feel that my salvation is secure forever. Or, I feel that God has predetermined the number of people going to heaven. Or, I feel that my interpretation of this scripture is correct, and therefore it is. The reason I'm asking is because of the differences between denominations in Christianity as well as other churches and cults and things and how it's all deviated. 


[00:08:16] Cody: It's a really tough question because everybody has that, you know. Has their own conviction about a belief. Otherwise, it wouldn't be their belief. So Everybody deals with that. 


[00:08:30] Gina: Do you agree Ben? 


[00:08:31] Ben: Pretty much. I would say a good example of what you're talking about is Early on in this series. I talked about a an interpretation of the Trinity that I had heard Which is that we are made in God's image, and we are mind, body, and will. 


[00:08:47] And God, therefore, is the same way. And God the Father is the mind, God the Son is the body, and then God the Spirit is the will. And that's how you can find the three parts being one. The three aspects of God creating one singular entity, which is God. That is something that I have peace with. There was a long time where I really didn't understand it, and I didn't get it. 


[00:09:06] And I heard that explanation and I'm like, okay, that makes sense. Now that doesn't mean that that explanation is really the way that it works. Because I've heard other explanations and other people who say that that explanation doesn't quite work. And I understand where they're coming from. Dr. David Woods talked about it and said that he has his differences with that. 


[00:09:24] And I referenced Nabeel literally all the time, and I imagine I'm going to reference him many, many more times. But the solution that he got, not his full explanation, actually came from a science class that he was doing. And it wasn't on quantum mechanics, it was on something else, I can't remember exactly. 


[00:09:40] They were doing a class on titrations, and there was something that was mentioned about something being in multiple states but still being the same thing, simultaneously. And so after hearing that, he thought, okay, so that could be, that's an example of something being multiple things separately, but still being the same thing. 


[00:09:56] It's not necessarily that you have found the right answer. It's that you find out that an answer can potentially exist. And so you find peace in the fact that, okay, I may not have the right answer. The right answer does exist. And where a lot of people find conflict is just the feeling of maybe there is no answer. 


[00:10:13] And that isn't a good place to be. Where you think, okay, they're just, Maybe all of this is just 100 percent wrong. Maybe all of this is silly, made up nonsense. That someone told me to make me feel better about myself, and now I'm getting this question, now I'm in an existential crisis. Just finding out that, yeah, there probably is an answer. 


[00:10:30] Even if you don't have the right one, this lets you know that it's possible to make sense of it. That, I think, is valid. It doesn't mean you're right. But it does make the feeling itself valid, especially if you put it in context. 


[00:10:42] Gina: So having those strong feelings is not a reason to leave and go start your own church. 


[00:10:50] Ben: Again, it's about the context of the feeling. So, there are people who felt that way. And I've known of many different churches that have developed My old church in Wisconsin is one where there was a satellite church that kind of developed off of them. And then there are other churches I've been at throughout the years. 


[00:11:07] Most new churches that you find are from people who split off from other churches and start new churches. I wouldn't say that that's valid for every single time. For some, though, it's legitimate. Sometimes there's a genuine split in the leadership of the church. And when you listen to some of these stories, but yeah, not to get too specific, I don't want to throw people's names out there or anything, but why do you feel the way that you do? 


[00:11:29] That's the ultimate question. If you're someone who's thinking either I need to leave my current church and find a new one or you're thinking, okay, I have this really deep conviction that I need to start a new church. All right. Where is that coming from? Is it simply coming from a disagreement? Is it coming from the fact that you are going to tons of different churches and not finding a single one that it seems reasonable to you, where every single one you go to seems to be crazy? 


[00:11:53] Sometimes that means that you're crazy, and sometimes it really does mean that all of the churches around you are legitimately nuts. Because, like we said in the last episode, the number one denomination in the United States is non denominational. And there is no telling what that church is when you go into it. 


[00:12:09] Right. 


[00:12:10] Ben: So it is possible. You're just surrounded by tons of churches that aren't truly servicing Christ. And what the Lord's telling you to do is to start one that does. That could be it. The question is, what's the context for the feeling? 


[00:12:22] Gina: Thank you. No problem. Sorry. I have these random questions. No, no, 


[00:12:26] Ben: it's good. 


[00:12:26] It's good to get these the next one 


[00:12:28] Gina: And you want my next question? What's your next question? Um, let's go with 


[00:12:34] Ben: Well, so I got a question 


[00:12:35] Gina: Okay 


[00:12:36] Ben: So if God is able to speak to us directly and we all here believe that he can Whether or not he does he can if he can do that Why doesn't he just set us straight on the different things that we should believe? 


[00:12:46] Gina: Uh, cause there's 7 billion of us. 


[00:12:49] Ben: He can't talk to all of us? Of 


[00:12:50] Gina: course he can! But, you know, say that he talks to 1 million and he tells 1 million people the same exact thing. You're gonna have 1 million different explanations of what God said. 


[00:13:02] Ben: Well, can he not talk to 1 million people individually and set them straight constantly? 


[00:13:07] Gina: Well, he could, but they're still going to interpret it differently. You have language barriers, you have cultural differences. But he 


[00:13:15] Ben: knows the languages and he knows the cultures. 


[00:13:16] Gina: It's not about God's ability. It's about our ability. I mean, that's what I think. I don't know. What do you think, Cody? 


[00:13:22] Ben: Can you restate the question? 


[00:13:24] Why doesn't God set us straight on our various doctrines? Like, he could do it directly, he could just talk to us. So why doesn't he do that? 


[00:13:30] Cody: Well, I think we covered part of this in the whole divine hiddenness, um, topic that we covered, but if he was talking to us absolutely directly face to face, there would be no pursuit or chase. 


[00:13:45] Like, there would be no skin in the game for us. Like, there's, there is no effort to get to know God more if he's telling you exactly what everything is. I agree. What 


[00:13:55] Gina: he said. 


[00:13:58] Ben: I don't think that what you said was wrong at all. 


[00:14:00] No. I 


[00:14:01] Ben: think in many ways it's additive to that idea of divine hiddenness. I think at the heart of the issue is that we're human beings and we want God to be a certain way. 


[00:14:12] And that's ultimately what I think a lot of, uh, The doctrines are in the Bible. It's a reflection of what we want God to be 


[00:14:19] Gina: or that we want to be like or God 


[00:14:22] Ben: Mm hmm, and a lot of the times people will take things that make sense to them Like I said before at different points in my life I had different doctrines and so at different stages in our lives and in our faith will say okay This is what I think and God should have my back because I'm right on this And they'll find something in the Bible that backs that up. 


[00:14:40] It's more that we have the things that we want to believe, and so we find things in the Bible that confirm it. And it's not that God didn't tell us directly, or that he wouldn't set us straight. And oftentimes, it's like through the process of sanctification, we are set straight on a lot of these things. 


[00:14:56] And, I think that God, in many ways, does actually directly interfere and directly instruct us. It's just, it's an agonizingly slow process because God is, He's gentle, for the most part. That may sound strange if you read the Bible and you think, okay, so the same guy who, like, literally smoted Sodom and Gomorrah, like, blew them up off the face of the earth, yeah, he's the gentle guy. 


[00:15:18] On the individual level, he really is. The process of sanctification really is God highlights individual areas of your life where you need help. And then very agonizingly slowly, he starts helping you with that. And then suddenly another area highlights and you think, I didn't, that wasn't an issue before. 


[00:15:34] Yeah, it was, it was an issue the whole time. It's just, God's not going to take your entire life, the entire summation of all the sins that you have, hold them up to you and say, okay, fix it. 


[00:15:43] Gina: But I want, I want to know now. Make it, make me know now. 


[00:15:47] Ben: I kinda do wish that I knew now too. I mean, that would make this podcast a lot easier. 


[00:15:51] We could just tell everybody exactly how things are. 


[00:15:54] Gina: Ben, Ben, Ben, if you say you're an expert, they don't question you. 


[00:15:57] Ben: Especially if I say it in an English accent, then everyone knows that I'm an expert, because a person with an English accent would never lie. They're experts in everything . But yeah, it's, sorry. 


[00:16:10] No, it's, it's okay. It's like you said, there is the divine hiddenness and there is the pursuit. And the pursuit is a process that changes us. Just the very act of pursuing God is something that will change you. So yeah, I think there's a, a lot of aspects to why we have the disagreements and why God doesn't specifically set us straight 


[00:16:27] Gina: Then, is it, is it possible for us to be certain about any Christian doctrine? 


[00:16:33] We're all having identity crisis right now. 


[00:16:36] Ben: It kind of depends what you mean by certainty. So, Gina, are you certain that you exist? 


[00:16:41] No. 


[00:16:42] Ben: There we go. If you're not even, if you can't even be 100 percent certain that you exist. You can't be 100 percent certain of anything because your senses are contingent on you existing. 


[00:16:54] Cody: There's lots of stuff like a lot of atheists or agnostics will be like, oh, I can't see it I won't believe it. But you know, do you believe you have a brain? I guarantee you've never seen your brain. 


[00:17:06] Ben: There was a very interesting interview I saw with Richard Dawkins. where he was discussing with another atheist this general subject. 


[00:17:15] And he said there was a point where he would have said, yes, I would believe in God if I saw the evidence, if he appeared to me, say, and said, Hey, Richard Dawkins, I am God. 


[00:17:26] Gina: But how can we I mean, this is like a total rabbit hole, but. Like with AI and all of the technology, you could easily trick somebody. 


[00:17:35] Ben: That's, that's what I'm getting to. His response changed over time where initially he said, yes, I'd believe God exists if God literally showed up to me. But then he said, but yeah, how could I prove that that wasn't aliens showing up and playing a prank on me? How do I know that's not a hallucination? 


[00:17:52] There is a point like absolute 100 percent certainty is not something any of us is afforded. And I think. The divine hiddenness of God is one of those reasons. Now, at the same time, a lot of these questions about certainty go out of the way once emergencies start happening. Like once our lives are suddenly put in danger, all of these weird philosophical questions, do we exist? 


[00:18:11] Do I even know that I exist? Suddenly go out the window. 


[00:18:14] Yeah. Now it's where am I going? Yes. What's going to happen? 


[00:18:17] Ben: And so I feel like a lot of these questions about certainty really only can be entertained when you're in safety and comfort. But as far as whether or not we can be certain of anything, no, we can't be 100 percent certain of anything. 


[00:18:30] You can have. Beyond a reasonable doubt assurance that something is true. 


[00:18:35] Gina: I'm certain. I love you. 


[00:18:37] Ben: Oh, I love you too. 


[00:18:38] Gina: Sorry. 


[00:18:39] Ben: Beyond a reasonable doubt? 


[00:18:40] Gina: Yeah. 


[00:18:41] Ben: Oh, thank goodness. 


[00:18:44] Gina: Okay. 


[00:18:45] Ben: What do you think? Can we be certain about anything? 


[00:18:48] Cody: Um, can we be certain about anything? Um, not in the absolute 100%. And you know, Paul even alludes to that in scripture. 


[00:18:57] You know, if, If Christ didn't rise, then Christians are of all people to be the most pitied. you know, I don't think he was having an existential crisis or doubting what he believed, but it's, it's a valid point to put forward. 


[00:19:12] Gina: I mean, we have so much evidence of the people who walked with Jesus having issues remembering or holding onto the things Jesus taught, like Peter at certain points after Jesus ascended, like was making poor choices and going back to the more like, you know, the circumcision stuff. 


[00:19:31] And so it's hard to say that like, 2, 000 years removed from Jesus walking on this earth, we could have certainty when the disciples didn't even have true certainty. 


[00:19:42] Ben: When even John the Baptist, like this is a guy who knew Jesus from when he was a child. When he was in the womb. Yeah, he knew Jesus when he was in the womb. 


[00:19:50] He literally started doing backflips inside of his mom's womb when, you know, his mom and Mary got together. So, even that guy, when he was put in prison, and he was gonna be executed, and he talked to his disciple, he's like, Look, I really need to know, just please go and ask him, are you the Messiah or not? 


[00:20:07] Are you the one who we should be expecting, or should we expect someone else? If John the Baptist, that dude, had doubts, then yeah, you can't take 100, 100 percent certainty in anything. And honestly, that's one of the reasons why I trust the Bible to the degree that I do. Like the people in the Bible are real people and it's very clear they're written that way because that's, it's the truth. 


[00:20:28] It's who they were. So yeah, while we can't have certainty 100 percent you can have beyond a reasonable doubt assurance that it's true. 


[00:20:38] Well, the next question is, so Two a man . 


[00:20:43] Cody: So when we're, we're going to these churches and we're, you know, trying to figure out what the church believes, what others believe, or you've been in a church for a long time, what gives anybody the right to start judging people? 


[00:21:00] Salvation. Because it's common, you know, the common thing, you know, Christians will be like, Oh, we need to go convert, you know, the, the Buddhists or the Muslims. And, you know, they don't believe in the same God and all of that. And that's a little bit easier, but inside the church, does that happen? Is it okay if it happens? 


[00:21:18] Ben: Yeah, you bring up a good point because there is the great commission, go forth and make disciples of all nations. It's pretty clear to see when someone is genuinely not a disciple. But inside the church, there is occasional finger pointing where we say, okay, those people aren't Christian and we're actually going to be doing that a bit tonight with Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses. 


[00:21:37] And I do apologize to any Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses who are listening. We're not doing this to accuse anyone. We're not doing this to hurt anyone's feelings. So please give us a chance and we'll. Walk. Walk you through a lot of our reasoning behind this. The logic behind the logic of God. 


[00:21:50] But don't take our word for it. 


[00:21:51] Ben: No. And I do think that it's, there's accusations that have been levied far too often inside of the Christian Church. A lot of that is leveled from Protestants to Catholics. I've heard a lot of Mm-Hmm. . And then a lot of that is also levied back from Catholics to Protestants. Some of that does have to do with doctrinal. 


[00:22:11] In the end, we can't say with 100 percent certainty, again, whether or not someone is going to be accepted into heaven. And this is including people who aren't Christian. We know that there is no other name by which man can be saved. But we don't know if someone who doesn't believe gets to heaven and then Jesus says, Hey, I'm Jesus. 


[00:22:29] Like 


[00:22:29] Gina: a good example of that would be like the age of accountability. It's more like it's a little bit. Milder than accusing adult to adult of self like salvation or lack of it Because it involves like children. 


[00:22:41] Ben: Yeah unborn children who were never brought into the world Are we gonna say that all of them go to hell because they didn't have a chance to say the words I believe in Jesus Christ. 


[00:22:49] Yeah, 


[00:22:50] Ben: so there is a lot of that that's up in the air and we do need to be humble You're very, very humble in approaching this question. But I do think that there are times where there are specific doctrines that are presented forward that lie so outside of the biblical purview that you do have to point them out and say, that's dangerous, that is objectively wrong, that is not Christlike. 


[00:23:10] Now, as we kind of covered already, there's tons of different disagreements with different denominations about different doctrines, but I do believe there are specific doctrines that are so horrible that they do exclude you from being Christian. Now, the question is, how do you determine that? And ultimately, that goes back to what we've stressed many, many times, but those are the five core assumptions of Christianity. 


[00:23:33] One, that God exists, two, that God is good, three, that he loves you, four, that he came in the form of Jesus Christ and suffered in blood and died for your sins, and then five, that God speaks to us through scripture. Now, there is some gray area in all of those, absolutely, but if you outright defy one of those five assumptions, you can't be a Christian. 


[00:23:55] If you literally deny that Jesus was, that one, Jesus even existed, or two, that Jesus wasn't who he said he was, you can't be a Christian because the whole point of being a Christian is to be a follower of Christ, to be a little Christ. That's what the term Christian literally means. Little Christo. Little Christo. 


[00:24:13] And so if you decide you're going to say, you know what, I kind of like some things, but Jesus, I got to say, you definitely weren't the son of God. You definitely aren't God himself. And I don't need you specifically for salvation. And your sacrifice didn't do anything, then yeah, I would say that you aren't a Christian at that point. 


[00:24:32] And that's not me saying it. Now, yeah, I mean, it is me saying it. 


[00:24:35] Cody: But why do you think that they latch on to the term Christian when it literally means to follow Christ, to be like Christ, and to believe what He's told us? 


[00:24:48] Gina: Can I answer? 


[00:24:49] Cody: Yeah. 


[00:24:50] Gina: Because one of, like, I want to give an example of this outside of Mormonism and outside of Jehovah's Witness for a second, just because I think it's relevant. 


[00:24:59] Like my mom calls herself a Christian, but she does not do the things in the five core assumptions. And outside of that, she does things that the Bible actually forbids. So for me, it's not really like, do I believe her when she says she's a Christian? No. Do I have an argument with her? Like it's a badge of honor that I'm in a club and she's not like, no. 


[00:25:23] And I think we get caught up in this like, um, relationship with the church instead of the relationship with the Lord. And, um, Christian just becomes an idol or a title. And, uh, I don't know, like for me, the biggest burden that I have in my life is knowing that most of my family has no idea who Jesus is. 


[00:25:44] And, um, like does it give me the right to belittle somebody or, um, to like call judgment down on them? No, I don't want to ever accuse somebody of being an abomination or something. But I do think, you know, scripture gives us permission in certain instances when people are calling themselves Christians to call them up. 


[00:26:05] And um, you know, it talks about in scripture not judging the people who aren't saved, but judging the people who are. And so there's a fine line. In, um, you know, saying you're not a Christian or you're not saved or you're going to hell. Um, and I don't think that we should ever speak to somebody like that, but for me, the biggest burden in my life is knowing that I have relatives that say, Oh yeah, I'm a Christian because I went to church as a kid and now I am in a cult and, um, it doesn't hurt anybody, but it is light and Jesus is light. 


[00:26:38] And that means that I'm light. And that means that I'm a Christian. Amen. 


[00:26:41] Ben: Yeah, there's a separate question in there. There's the question of, is someone a Christian? And then there's a question of whether or not God will save them. Whether or not they're going to heaven. We can't say for certain, again, whether or not any individual person will end up going to heaven. 


[00:26:58] We know that there is no other name by which man can be saved. God so loved the world, he gave his only begotten son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish, but have everlasting life. We know that Christ is the only one who can save. The question is, can he do that after you die? The only thing I can say for certain is that if you do follow Christ, if you do confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you shall be saved. 


[00:27:24] And the reason I can say that with certainty is because that's literally what was lined out in the Bible. Maybe there's something else. Maybe there's a chance after death where God comes to you and says, Hey, this is me. This is how everything works. Do you believe? Maybe. But I'm not going to tell people that. 


[00:27:40] And I don't know. All I know is, I have to confess with my mouth. And that's the only way I get that blessed assurance. That I know So, now, where I'm going. 


[00:27:48] Gina: You're going to get further in the argument of salvation and being a Christian or not through discipleship than you ever would through judgment. I know Cody's been a really good model of that for me. 


[00:27:59] Cody: I think in, at least in our modern society. Era, we get the term judgment mixed up with, you know, the sentence and condemnation and just enacting, you know, God's will on other people. That's not what judgment really means when people are saying to judge others. Like when we, when we judge our brothers and sisters and hold them accountable, that is not the same as God enacting His righteous judgment. 


[00:28:32] Ben: And it's important to remember that the harshest words Jesus had were for the religious leaders at the time. It is possible for us to have vehement disagreements, but we also do have to remember we're not Jesus. Like we're fallible people too. There are times where we will be given strong convictions about things. 


[00:28:47] And unfortunately you do have to have a measure of wisdom and knowledge of yourself to know if that's Jesus or if that's you, but if the Lord's not 


[00:28:54] easy, 


[00:28:54] Ben: no, it really isn't. But if the Lord's not leaving you alone on something, oftentimes a good barometer for that is, do you want this to be the hill you die on? 


[00:29:03] If it's the hill you want to die on, it's probably you. And if it's something you want to stay far away from, but God's not letting you, it's probably God. 


[00:29:10] Gina: I was sent this quote today, and I have no idea who this pastor guy is, but he's talking about if you are called to prophesy, then you're going to have a hard time staying quiet, meaning like saying things you shouldn't say. 


[00:29:26] And if you are meant to help the heartbroken, then you're going to deal with heartbreak. Like, there are certain signs and, like, fruits that will come with certain gifts and certain things from God. And I think the truest way of testing them is seeing, like, what the fruit is. And sometimes that takes a lot of time. 


[00:29:46] Ben: You know, the tree by its fruit. That's very true. So how do we determine if a doctrine is necessary for salvation? 


[00:29:53] Gina: If it makes me feel peace. I'm being sarcastic. 


[00:29:56] Cody: It's like, whoa, okay, we need to go have a conversation. How do we determine that? Well, we know that salvation is through grace alone, not of our own doing. 


[00:30:10] So, kind of, that would be the first step. If it contradicts that, then, I would say, then, it's probably not a correct doctrine. 


[00:30:18] Ben: Yeah, essentially, we're told multiple times throughout the Bible what it is. It's, again, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and you believe in your heart, you trust in your heart, you trust That God raised him from the dead, you shall be saved. 


[00:30:31] That's it. 


[00:30:32] Gina: Can you give some examples of doctrine that could potentially or may not impact salvation, but that is still maybe something that we see in the average Christian church in America? 


[00:30:45] Cody: Infant baptism. Yes. 


[00:30:48] Gina: What about, like, communion? 


[00:30:51] Ben: Well, so in the Catholic Church, communion is considered to be one of the seven sacraments. 


[00:30:55] And the seven sacraments, I would say, is prayer. Probably another example of one of these things, where in the Catholic faith, there's different classifications of sins. There's mortal sins and venial sins, I believe is the classification. And venial sins aren't that big of a deal. They're sin that puts distance between you and God, but in the end, it can just be forgiven. 


[00:31:13] You just ask for forgiveness and you're fine. Mortal sins are different. And so it's like looking lustfully on a woman. For an example, if you're a man is a mortal sin and a mortal sin, the second that you commit it, It puts an eternal distance between you and God, and you need to re attain grace to cover that sin. 


[00:31:30] And you re attain grace through one of the seven sacraments. And one of the seven sacraments is the Catholic Mass, and at the Catholic Mass is when you partake of communion. And they believe that the partaking of communion is something that will re You will recover your grace through that. That, I don't think inherently makes you not Christian, believing that. 


[00:31:49] Like, seriously. I disagree with the concept of the seven sacraments, but the thing is about each of the seven sacraments, at the heart of it, it's essentially stressing an idea that is a holy thing. The idea of marriage as a sacrament. It's treating marriage as a very holy thing, as a very important thing. 


[00:32:08] And yes, I disagree that it covers over sin. But the Catholic approach to it is that it's, it's a genuinely holy thing. It's meant to reflect Christ's relationship with the church, and as a result, because that's the reflection, it is a holy and beautiful thing. Now, yeah, I think that they add a little too much there, but I don't think that believing doing certain things covers over your sin, or just kind of thinking that and going through the motions like many Catholics do, ultimately overrides the fact that you've confessed with your mouth Jesus is Lord and you believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, so you are saved. 


[00:32:41] I don't think that once you get into heaven, he's like, So what's this, uh, Venial mortals and 


[00:32:45] Cody: the thing he were talking about and no, but it becomes an issue when you depend on that thing for your salvation, because when you slide from confessing, okay, repentance, you know that you're a center. You know that you fall short of God glory, God's glory, Jesus is the only grace that gets you there, but you have to do this work to purify yourself. 


[00:33:08] Again, it's like how we talk about baptism, baptism being a necessity for salvation is a work based salvation. If baptism is necessary for salvation, then it is a works based item that you have to do. So that's putting salvation in your court now. If you don't get baptized, you're not going to be saved. 


[00:33:32] Ben: And the way I've seen and heard many Catholics explain, they do more see it not so much as a forgiving of sins, but as these are very important rituals that they partake of. And while it's something that the Catholic Church, uh, at the highest levels does teach is necessary for forgiving sin, they don't really see it that way. 


[00:33:48] So just the idea that it exists, I don't think is something that automatically makes it to where all Catholics are no longer Christian or something like that. I do think it stands, like Cody said, in opposition to the fact that it's, you cannot earn your salvation. 


[00:34:01] Cody: I respect that in a lot of way from the Catholic church, because a lot of non Orthodox Christians, Orthodox being Catholic, will kind of just brush it off. 


[00:34:12] Like, yeah. You know, at least in Catholicism, there's this more heavy weight of needing to rid yourself of the person that you are. Non denominational Christians will sin, and it's just like, la di da di da, you know, you know, Paul talks about, should you continue to sin so grace can abound, by no means. But I feel like that's how a lot of American churches act. 


[00:34:36] It's like, Oh, the more sin I do, it just raises God's grace. And no, that's not, that's not how it works. 


[00:34:43] Gina: Are there any other examples within the non denominational church for doctrine that, um, might be confusing or. I don't know, just throws people off balance a little bit in terms of their salvation. 


[00:34:59] Cody: It's hard with non denominational, because they're kind of the willy nilly, like, bring in anything as long as you're a Christian, because you'll have, charismatics can fit in with, uh, you know, the cessationists being the same church, and it's not really taught about a whole lot, or if it is, it's in a biblical context, so there's no real butting of heads. 


[00:35:24] Ben: Yeah, I would say. There was a non denominational church that I went to literally once and then never went back to again. And the reason was because the sermon that the preacher gave was literally about how it's possible for you to change God's mind. Now, I don't know where on earth you can get the idea that you can change God's mind. 


[00:35:41] But he talked about 


[00:35:42] that a lot. 


[00:35:43] Ben: Mm hmm. And I think it's very very wrong. And the guy was talking about Moses and Moses talking to God and God was like, I'm going to Wipe out this generation of Israel after they, you know, made the golden calf and Moses like no don't do that and then God didn't do that well I was like, 


[00:36:00] oh, 


[00:36:00] Ben: yeah, he's like, oh, okay I didn't occur to me that I shouldn't but the thing is if you continue reading through the book of Exodus It turns out God did actually wipe out that entire generation Moses asked him not to in that moment, and so he let Moses see what would result. 


[00:36:15] And then, later on, literally that entire generation was wiped out because they refused to go into the promised land. They didn't believe in God enough. They didn't trust him enough. And so they ended up wandering in the desert for 40 years. And if Moses had listened to God in that instance, and had accepted what God's judgment was, rather than asking God to change something, And who knows what would have happened. 


[00:36:36] Cody: He might have made it into the promised land. He might have. No, I've heard that taught before and it's the same with the interaction. It seems like the forever interaction when, uh, right before Sodom and Gomorrah is being destroyed. 


[00:36:50] Ben: So yeah, that's an example of another, uh, I think that that's very wrong, and you can make the argument that that goes directly into the face of God's immutable characteristics, his eternal nature. 


[00:37:01] Because if you can convince him of something, obviously it means that he doesn't, uh, actually know everything. Now, I would say that it's a wrong doctrine, but I would say it's one that's made from the perspective of you don't know everything. 


[00:37:13] Cody: Would you tease that out more? Like if they believe they can change God's mind, so this is kind of playing devil's advocate. 


[00:37:21] Sure. So if you tease that out further, and like, to me, the logical end to that belief is open theism. Where you believe, you know what you're going to do before God does, and I would say that borderlines heretical. 


[00:37:37] Ben: Yes, I would say so too. I would say that that is a tough thing and we'll actually go into more exploration of this kind of thing later. 


[00:37:45] I would agree it does borderline heretical. I would say that there are probably people who believe it, but don't really put too much thought into it. And so they think when they're praying something, maybe God will do it because I'm just convincing. I wouldn't say that those people aren't necessarily Christian. 


[00:38:00] It's tough. But I would say that, yes, the actual doctrine itself is heretical. And yeah, that does beg the question, okay, so can you believe a heretical belief and then still be a Christian? I don't know. Like, that's a tough one. 


[00:38:14] Can I ask a question? 


[00:38:17] Gina: I mean, I guess that was a rhetorical question. 


[00:38:20] Ben: You could ask a question. 


[00:38:20] Gina: Um, I know that, I know that we've been talking about this for a while, but can you guys give like just a layman's explanation of what a doctrine is? Because I think we probably should have done that. It's a little Christian. Well, we did 


[00:38:35] Ben: that, we did that in the last episode. 


[00:38:38] Gina: Yeah. 


[00:38:38] Ben: Essentially, a doctrine is just an interpretation of the Bible. 


[00:38:42] An individual section of the Bible. An idea presented in the Bible. So an example of a doctrine, we've given a few examples, but here, there's the, the doctrine of, okay, I can change God's mind. That's a doctrine. There are doctrines that are true. There are doctrines that are false. Different Christians disagree on different things. 


[00:39:01] and agree on different things. But there are definitely some doctrines that are so wrong that they are basically heretical. And by heretical we mean Really, really, really wrong. 


[00:39:11] Gina: Would you consider Calvinism to be a doctrine? Yeah, 


[00:39:14] Ben: it's a doctrine. Yeah. 


[00:39:15] Cody: It's a lot of sets of doctrines. 


[00:39:18] Ben: Yeah. But yeah, thinking a bit more about what you asked there, Cody, about specifically the doctrine of whether or not you can change God's mind. 


[00:39:26] I think that probably should be something that gets its own episode ultimately. But the broader question, can you have a legitimately heretical, Teaching in your church and still be a christian church This goes into whether or not we have the authority to say whether or not something is christian But 


[00:39:44] Gina: it takes a level of critical thinking that most people are too lazy or complacent to have and I I say that with all of the love in the world, but You can have churches that are, you know, the third largest church in america Speaking doctrine that's heretical or dangerous Is But because they're so wealthy and so popular and they write songs that make people feel good they're Thriving and growing and influencing and it's not just limited to cults. 


[00:40:16] It's it's also You know, mainstream Christianity. And I think it takes the logical aspect. That's why I love doing this podcast because we have to attack these doctrines and we have to be logical and analytical about them. And if you don't have the skills to critically think that's a big problem and you're never going to be able to identify where doctrine is misleading. 


[00:40:41] A congregation. There's nothing that, that makes me more irate. Then hearing a pastor teach something that's kind of ambiguous because you know what they're really saying, but they're not saying it in the way that would make them get called a heretic. And that's something that I think bears noticing here because it's not just as insidious as or obvious as, you know, Mormonism or cults or whatever it's. 


[00:41:11] Ben: Yeah, I, I think ultimately this goes back to whether or not you can be a person who is saved. But then the church itself that you're belonging to isn't a good church. It's maybe even a heretical church. And I would say, kind of tying all this together from a logical perspective, if we're saying that a Christian church is one that adheres to all five of the core principles, and you have a teaching that directly goes against even one of those core principles, then no, you're not a, you're not a Christian church. 


[00:41:39] That doesn't mean that members of that congregation can't be saved, because we can't say whether or not they are. We can't say, that's something that God determines. All we can do is look at the individual doctrines that make up something and say whether or not the doctrine itself is sound and whether or not the doctrine adheres to what makes something Christian. 


[00:41:57] Cody: That's why we tell everybody to not take anybody's word for it, but to figure it out themselves. Because at the end of the day, your church does care about your salvation, but you alone are responsible and are supposed to pursue and work out your faith in fear and trembling yourself. 


[00:42:19] Gina: And loving God with all of your heart is great, but if you're not loving Him with your mind, that's a problem. 


[00:42:27] Thank you so much for taking the time to listen to our podcast today. If you liked what you heard, please feel free to subscribe and share and leave a positive review. And if you would like to connect with us on social media, you can do so on Instagram and Facebook at the logic of God. You can also send us an email at main dot the logic of God at gmail. 


[00:42:49] com. Thanks again for listening. We hope you have a great day.

Relationship With Church Part 2

[00:00:00] Cody: Hi, thank you for tuning in to the Logic of God podcast. I'm Cody. 


[00:00:11] Gina: I'm Gina. 


[00:00:12] Cody: And I'm Ben. If you're returning, thank you for coming back, and if you are a new guest, welcome. 


[00:00:25] Gina: I think the last point I want to make on tithing is the idea of giving in secret. 


[00:00:31] Ben: What, you don't give it in public? You don't walk in front of the church congregation with a big old check, you just flap in front of everybody? 


[00:00:36] Gina: Don't you know I give in hundreds? 


[00:00:39] Ben: Exclusively. That's what Everybody, she walks up and she has this wad of hundreds and she just counts them out. 


[00:00:45] Gina: I flick them one at a time. She 


[00:00:47] Ben: licks her finger in between each one. Maintains eye contact with the pastor. 


[00:00:54] Gina: And then if he gives me a high five, I throw an extra hundred. We have a small. Group. And I say we lightly because I don't do a whole lot to contribute, but Cody leads and, and has this group of people that go out and like fill needs basically. 


[00:01:11] Anytime that there's a need, we try to fill it. And one of the rules in this group is. No selfies, no social media, no talking about it. Like we're not going to go speak people's business or share what we've done. The only reason that we would share it with anybody would be just for accountability purposes and staying informed and making sure that everybody's safe. 


[00:01:34] But outside of that, like the first time that you guys met Cody, you announced like, we're not doing selfies. We're not doing social media. And a lot of the people never came back. And I just, I have this really strong belief in giving in secret and the people in your church that are the quietest, but the most consistent in attendance, those are probably the most generous with their time and their money, and they don't talk about it at all. 


[00:02:01] And so if you're expecting your church to acknowledge the 10%, Or if you're expecting to be able to like brag about that or somehow share about it or subtly included in conversations or just talk about your wealth. In my opinion, it's a huge disservice to what you're trying to do and what God is asking you to do. 


[00:02:23] And if you can't give in secret, then your pride is a major issue. So I don't know if you have any thoughts, but I just, it drives me crazy at Christmas. It's part of why I'm on, I'm not on social media right now is like anytime there's a holiday or like a catastrophe in another place, it's like everybody's either posting, let's pray for such and such, or look what I just did, or my family adopted another family for Christmas. 


[00:02:50] Like you don't understand that what you're saying by posting pictures of all these presents is like, look at these poor people we're helping. Like that's horrible. It's horrible. You're intention is wrong, and you can't meaningfully give out loud, I don't think. 


[00:03:04] Ben: Yeah, the focus is being shifted from Christ and onto you. 


[00:03:08] I agree with you 100%. And there is, I wish I could remember the chapter in verse, I'm sure you know what I'm talking about, where there's the Talking about the, the, the rabbis who go out and they have their phylacteries on their foreheads and they're wailing out in the open and, you know, their tassels are long so that everyone can count them and, you know, it's very clear that they're following the, the laws of Moses to a T and they're doing this not because they want the Lord to be honored. 


[00:03:33] They do it because they want everyone to see them and recognize them as the holy people that they are. But, to play devil's advocate for a second, the Bible also does talk about us being the city on the hill. We're supposed to be the light that's not covered. We're supposed to be visible, so how would you reconcile us being visible and us being a light to the world with doing things in secret? 


[00:03:57] Gina: So, there's a guy that lives in our community that is known for helping single moms. He walks around with the fat roll of hundreds, and he's been seen throwing money in people's laps. And he'll wander around in group settings and have really half hearted conversations. I can't tell you how many times he's gotten my name wrong. 


[00:04:22] And I've personally helped him help other people, like done shopping for him and stuff. So how I can tell a difference between a genuinely kind hearted, generous person who's serving the Lord or somebody who wants attention and is extremely self consumed, Is just the authenticity in conversation. 


[00:04:43] Somebody who knows who I am and asks about me remembers that I have children maybe even knows some of my struggles and checks on me and says, how are you doing? As opposed to somebody who's like, Oh, Hey Tina, how's it going? Okay. Bye. Like. You can tell because they are the salt in the light, and that has way more to do with how you're treating other people and how you interact with people than it does how deep your pockets are and how obvious that is. 


[00:05:10] Cody: I don't think I need to add to that, but I want to. Being the salt in the light or the beacon on the hill, like, there's a way to do that. From a community as like a congregational standpoint, the whole rather than individually. And I think that's important, but also the posture of, uh, it goes back to the heart posture thing. 


[00:05:35] If you're doing it for recognition, you're doing it for the wrong reason. If you're doing it to be the beacon, to be the light, you're not going to worry about what angle they get you on for the picture. If there is a picture or posing with this. Like, I hate seeing all of these pictures of the handing of the gifts over to the children or something. 


[00:05:56] There's ways you can go about it where you protect the identities and 


[00:06:01] Gina: the situation and 


[00:06:04] Cody: still make your case stone of what's going on. 


[00:06:08] Gina: You can describe a need. Without being too specific 


[00:06:12] Cody: and like with my group like the guys that go out I will brag about them to the pastor or like if they just kick butt There's this one lady in the community who had a pipe burst and you know, I'm terrible with plumbing So I didn't want to get involved. 


[00:06:27] So one of the guys jumped in went out that same day took it up So I was like this guy did awesome and it's okay for me to brag about the My brothers and sisters in Christ, it's when it becomes, I'm bragging about myself that it becomes bad. 


[00:06:41] Ben: Yeah, whoever exalts themselves will be humbled, but whoever humbles themselves will be exalted. 


[00:06:47] And I think, yeah, what you guys are saying is very true and it's backed up with Scripture. It's the idea that if you are humbling yourself, if you are making what's happening, what you're doing about the act itself and about glorifying God, God will glorify you. And most of the time it will be through the people you're helping. 


[00:07:04] Like, I guarantee you all the people that we've helped, they know who we are. And while they may not know our names, they know the Church was behind it, and for me, that's enough. I don't really care if any of the people that we've helped know who I am, but they do know that the Church was the one who helped them. 


[00:07:18] They know that it was Christ who is behind our motivation. And that's ultimately the biggest thing that we should want to do. Not for our names to go out there and not for our names to be blessed or people to think that we're good people. This 


[00:07:31] Gina: really flows well into the conversation about serving because this isn't something that our church has. 


[00:07:37] instigated. This is our own kind of decision and our own heart telling us through communion with the Lord that this is something we should be doing. And it's a gap that we've seen. And so I like kind of segueing into this, if that's okay, because We've talked a little about serving within the church, but this is an example of serving outside of the church. 


[00:07:59] And I think one of the struggles I had when Cody and I had conversations about starting this group was that it felt almost disloyal because then we weren't serving in our own church in the more conventional ways. And we serve, like, enough to be a full time job at our church. So it's not that we're not involved. 


[00:08:19] It's just creating another, like, subunit outside of the church felt a little disloyal. And I think that we should talk about that a little bit because people can get really tied up in their identity within their church, and then they lose whatever their calling is. And I put a little sentence, I put filling a need versus fulfilling a calling. 


[00:08:40] And so I really would like to talk about that with you guys if you're up for it. 


[00:08:44] Cody: Absolutely. 


[00:08:45] Gina: Any thoughts? 


[00:08:46] Cody: Explain what you mean behind fulfilling a calling or need. 


[00:08:50] Gina: So, and, and I also segues into the second page of our notes, but my opinion is that all people, especially Christians, are called to a certain type of ministry. 


[00:09:01] It doesn't have to be vocational ministry, but it is a type of ministry and it ties in with our spiritual gifts and it ties in with God's plan for our lives. And this was one thing that Cody and I saw a gap. We realized it wasn't something that the church was equipped to handle, especially immediately, and there were immediate needs. 


[00:09:20] And so Cody created this group and got stuff going and it became great. And at first it seemed like, The pastors maybe were a little hesitant, but then as it started to grow, it's now become like praised and it's a good thing and the pastors know they can count on us to take care of things when the church can't. 


[00:09:38] And that's a beautiful thing, but it begs the question, at what point am I a warm body that's just placeholder? Or like with the calling, how do I determine where I'm called and what God wants me to do in my church or in my community? 


[00:09:54] Cody: There's certain things that the Bible tells us to do. It tells us, as Christians, we should take care of orphans, we should take care of widows, we should take care of elderly, and disabled 


[00:10:08] Gina: people, 


[00:10:09] Cody: and outreach to prisons and prisons. 


[00:10:13] that way. So those would be a great place to start for an outreach or a call because that is pretty prescribed to every Christian. That is a heart posture that you should have as a Christian. So if you're struggling to find an area to serve or don't feel like you just want to be that warm body holding the door open, and there's plenty of people doing that, and it's not a need of church, you're just there, you could start looking at. 


[00:10:42] Those places and where you can serve, and I don't see it a lot anymore, but I remember growing up going to nursing homes and doing a lot of outreach in that way, and not necessarily going there to evangelize, but just to be with people and to have a community with kind of people who are locked up almost they, a lot of them don't have freedom to go. 


[00:11:05] So that that's a good place to start. Uh, you can get a lot of wisdom that way too, but yeah, those almost all communities have any of those outreaches that they could do. 


[00:11:16] Ben: Absolutely. And it's important to remember that while you may be doing something outside of your small C Church, you're not doing it outside of the big C Church. 


[00:11:25] It's like Gina said in our last session when she outlined very well what the actual church is. There is your individual denomination, the individual building that you go to. But in the end, we are all a member of Christ who is ultimately the big C church. When you're acting in Christ's name, you're acting on behalf of the church. 


[00:11:45] And there are going to be times where it's going to feel like you really should be doing something through an organized church. And to be fair, there are times where that's definitely a good idea. A lot of the times they will have infrastructure set up. to where you aren't going to be starting at something from ground zero. 


[00:12:01] And a lot of the times it will be something you can do through the church you're already attending. Not always. There are certain outreach programs that you're really only going to find at certain churches that are closer to the communities that are being affected by something. Certain things that address like homeless people and street evangelism and things like that, or even people who are victims of abuse. 


[00:12:19] As not every single church has an outreach program for those kinds of people. And there are some that will house women who've been affected through human trafficking or something like that. So if you're looking to help in those areas, there are absolutely individual small C churches that can help you through that and we'll be very glad to take your help. 


[00:12:37] But that's not, and 


[00:12:38] Gina: also ministry organizations that are not churches. 


[00:12:40] Ben: Absolutely. And. Yeah, there are even organizations like Salvation Army or the Red Cross or any number of other organizations where you can volunteer through. But remember, no matter what you're doing, if you're doing it for Christ, you are representing the church. 


[00:12:54] And so it can be done through something like a secular organization even. It doesn't necessarily have to be through a church, but no matter what, you are representing the church. And so if it's done in his name, he's going to accept it. He will accept it on your behalf. And in the end. If you fall, this is the harder thing to accept. 


[00:13:11] If you fall, if you mess up, if you give in to sin or to temptation while you're going out and you're doing things in His name, people will see that and it will be a mark against Christ. 


[00:13:22] Gina: That's one thing, wow, that's such a good point because, like, I have a sibling that's transgender and they work in like a little restaurant. 


[00:13:32] And so many people go in, like, all high and mighty, like, Oh, I'm a Christian and you're an abomination. Like, nobody ever got saved being called an abomination. Like, you might feel really convicted about a certain kind of sin, but that does not give you the, like, authority to go up to somebody and be like, You're a sinner! 


[00:13:54] Get the log out of your eye. 


[00:13:56] Cody: And we're called to challenge our brothers and sisters that way. Corinthians tells us that people outside the church are the responsibility of Jesus to judge, not ours. 


[00:14:07] Gina: We have a lot more influence than we give ourselves credit for. And that falls into the call to leadership, having the authority or the ability to influence other people and like lead them to make a decision or to come to a conclusion. 


[00:14:24] It's a very powerful thing, and if you look at the examples set by Jesus in scripture, he, for the most part, with people, he was very direct and honest. He had moments where he was really funny, and also where he was really aggressive. But he did everything so lovingly and so gently, like, he talked to so many people who were committing all kinds of sin, and not once was he like, well, you'll deal with me later. 


[00:14:53] Ben: Yeah, when there was the woman who was, he actually dealt with multiple women who were guilty of adultery, and there was the one woman who had been married. I don't know, like six times, and the guy that she was living with at the time wasn't even her husband. And that was scandalous. That would have been scandalous now, even with things as they are today. 


[00:15:10] Imagine how it would have been at the time of Christ. That would have been absolutely insane. For someone to be married multiple times and be living with someone who they're not married to. But, Jesus was very kind to this person. And he was kind to the woman who was going to be stoned for adultery. The harshest words that he ever had were for people who knew better. 


[00:15:28] You don't call a doctor in for someone who's already well, you call a doctor in for someone who's sick. But for the people who claim to be well, but are sicker than everyone else, you have very harsh words, because they don't know what they're talking about, and they'll make someone twice the son of hell that they are. 


[00:15:42] Pardon my words, but that's scriptural. I've never 


[00:15:43] Cody: heard that, but I like that. 


[00:15:46] Ben: So, yeah, it is important for us to remember that Christ's harshest words were for the people who were already a part of the church. who are already people who claim to know God. So for those who know, more is going to be asked of you and the higher the standard is going to be for you. 


[00:16:02] But for people who aren't even part of the church, how could you expect them to know? 


[00:16:06] Gina: Well, and to go out and wound them like intentionally. Yeah. Or shame them like you're not being a very good image bearer 


[00:16:13] Cody: that goes to new christians, too Like people who just come in the church one You don't know if anybody's walk as soon as they walk through the door, but if they're even Affirming that they're christians and they're new christians newly baptized. 


[00:16:29] I've seen a lot of people Basically instantly expect that person's life to do a 180 Sanctification is a long process. It's a 


[00:16:38] Gina: lifelong process 


[00:16:39] Cody: Sanctification is basically the purification of our humanity to be more reflective of Christ. It's basically us becoming more like Christ, if that's how I would describe it. 


[00:16:54] It's a big word, so I wanted to break up the Christianese a bit, but sanctification is a process, and it's not an instantaneous thing. So, grace and love is what we're told to have. There is a time for rebuking and you bring it to the pastor, you bring it multiple people in and then to follow the way scripture tells you to deal with people who are above reproach or beyond that for themselves. 


[00:17:21] But generally speaking, that's not the point that it gets to when people are repent and you shall be saved, you sinner. 


[00:17:29] Gina: Yeah, no. It really, it breaks my heart, especially like with the LGBT community, it really breaks my heart that they are received by churches with so much hatred because sin is sin. So like the man who's sitting in the church congregation that beats his wife and kids and then like the lady that's addicted to pornography, they're sinners too. 


[00:17:55] And we're not shouting in their faces and accusing them of being an abomination. So I really struggle with the attitude of certain churches and certain people to like spew hate on like one specific demographic when we're all in a demographic of being sinners. 


[00:18:12] Cody: And this is not affirming it by any means. 


[00:18:14] Gina: No, it's just, if somebody were to come up to you and they were like, listen, I know what you did last night, whatever it was that you did that was sinful. And they were like, you're going to hell. I just wanted to make sure you were aware of that. Like, first of all, you already know that you feel bad about whatever you did that was wrong. 


[00:18:34] Like you don't need somebody coming into your life and accusing you. And then like, second of all, you're not going to change. You're going to stay trapped in this cycle because you feel so much shame about it. If somebody were to come to you and say, listen, I know what you did last night and I just want you to know you have hope for the future and there's more for you and like I can show you where to go to feel whole again. 


[00:18:58] That's going to get you way further than saying, you're an abomination and you're going to hell. Like, that's my opinion, but I think it's worth saying because as a person who joined Christianity as an adult and saw a lot of sermons that spewed a lot of hate at different churches along the way, and then knowing how some new believers have fallen or some really good leaders have fallen, it doesn't, Go without saying that you have to be really careful how you treat other people whether you're tipping them in a restaurant or Accusing them of a sin like it's you have to treat everybody with consistent love and respect 


[00:19:33] Cody: And I think that goes into the next section really 


[00:19:35] Ben: well And 


[00:19:36] Gina: did you have something you wanted to say 


[00:19:37] Ben: well real quick setting Transgenderism and homosexuality aside for a second my brother back when he was still alive He was involved in a relationship with a married woman. 


[00:19:48] And this was something that Obviously I was against and my dad was against pretty much the whole family was against there was a period early on where it basically came up in every single conversation that we had and things turned very hostile and very angry and There were a lot of things that were said that were very damaging and they especially drove a wedge between my brother and my father Transcribed Over time, things shifted and my brother knew our stance on what he was doing. 


[00:20:17] We didn't support it, but eventually we softened toward him and we didn't have to spell out how we felt about his relationship with this married woman. But we did make it clear that we loved him no matter what. And we tried to have fun with him, to show him that we loved him and to show him that we appreciated him. 


[00:20:35] And eventually his relationship with my dad got repaired. But. In the end, there was still a wedge between us and that wedge did drive him to move off to Daytona to be closer to this woman. That is ultimately where he died. And it was in part because of this relationship. If he had left it aside, he wouldn't have ended up losing his life. 


[00:20:56] It wasn't directly because of that. I don't want to go into all the details and I don't really have the right to, but the point is that the wedge didn't come because of us and what we said and what we did. At first it was. And that was a mistake, and if you ask my dad, he'll even say that that wasn't good. 


[00:21:12] Eventually, he knew that we loved him, and he knew that we cared about him. But the fact that he was involved in a sinful lifestyle was the thing that drove the wedge, and he was in full control of that wedge. And so he was the one who drove himself away. We didn't drive him away. I think it's important to know that, like Gina, you said, We don't have to spell it out every single time someone's around us who is living in a life that is sinful, that the Bible says is not right. 


[00:21:40] We can show these people love, and we should. We need to. In the end, if there's going to be a wedge, it needs to be something that they see is something that is in their control and is in their lives. It shouldn't be something that you do actively to push them away. If they are pushed away, it should be because they choose to, not because you were pushing them. 


[00:21:58] Gina: Definitely. Thanks for sharing that. 


[00:22:01] Ben: No problem. 


[00:22:02] Cody: Yeah. No, thank you for that. And like, all of this goes into the next section of leadership, because I think this shows the true integrity of a leader and how discipleship should look. Because if you are just spewing terrible things at somebody. That's not discipleship by any means. 


[00:22:25] You're not 


[00:22:26] Gina: discipleship? 


[00:22:27] Cody: Getting there. I'm sorry. You 


[00:22:30] Gina: know me, I'm always like, what's the new believer gonna think? 


[00:22:33] Cody: But, when that new believer comes in, or that person that you see every day who you know is actively sinning, and you sit with them and talk with them and get a relationship with them, and you carry that burden with them, and help them overcome whatever is conquering their life, whatever sin is conquering them at that time, and you help them combat that to win that. 


[00:23:02] battle. That is the true sign of discipleship. 


[00:23:07] Gina: Brings to mind the image of the man that had to help Jesus carry his cross. So, I didn't even think about this until, like about sharing this until tonight, but I want to share like a story about becoming a leader in the church and how to determine If that's really something that you're called to, because I think mega churches do a really good job of kind of glamorizing ministry and making it look like the natural progression of serving in a church would be, you start out as a new person and you get connected and you might figure out like one of your spiritual gifts and then you're in a group and then suddenly you're leading a team serving and then you're. 


[00:23:51] invited to join staff for some reason. And that seems to be like the expectation in a lot of mega churches is like, well, if I'm a high capacity volunteer, then I might be called to lead in a church or be in ministry vocationally. And I think it's just a really unhealthy dynamic to have in a church personally. 


[00:24:14] I don't know if you have any thoughts on that. 


[00:24:16] Cody: Yeah, no, I think the mega churches a big Uh, component of that, but 


[00:24:21] Gina: I guess what's a megachurch, I'm sorry, 


[00:24:24] Cody: megachurch, I'd say it's any congregation above 500 people, 


[00:24:28] Gina: like multi site kind of churches. 


[00:24:31] Cody: That's a different, like, I don't know your average church I think is what, 75 people or something like that. 


[00:24:36] I 


[00:24:36] Gina: think it's actually like 60. 


[00:24:38] Cody: So The average church is well below, maybe mega church you can, you can go as like 2000 or more or something like that. 


[00:24:47] Gina: It's a big church. It's 


[00:24:47] Cody: a big church. That's a lot of people. That's a lot of church members, congregants. And they, they push it because the need for, serving and like the need to have those high level volunteers. 


[00:25:01] So it is pushed a lot, but it also gives this false persona that everyone's calling is ministry, full time ministry, which is not. There's not a lot of full time, besides the Levites in the Old Testament, there is not a whole lot of people who didn't have Paul made tense on the side, like, Paul was one of the most active ministries and missionaries that we see in scripture, and he still had side hustles. 


[00:25:30] Like he, he still did other stuff. So to say that your 100 percent calling is ministry, I think that calling is a lot smaller than the number of people that are in the church right now leading or pastoring. Do 


[00:25:44] Gina: you have any thoughts, Ben? 


[00:25:46] Ben: So, I would say for most people, leadership actually starts much lower than at the top. 


[00:25:50] Like, the temptation is for a lot of these discussions to start, Okay, you're at the top, you're the pastor, you're the leader of the flock. Like, most of the time, your leadership starts fairly low. So, starting a Bible study, for instance, is actually a great place that a lot of people start. And a similar question rises there, like, What is the criteria for you being the leader of a Bible study? 


[00:26:10] Should you be someone who's very secure in your faith at that point? Can he be a person who has questions? Like, what is the standard for someone who is just leading something like a Bible study? But for me, I would say that you can absolutely be a new believer and start a Bible study. In fact, I would say that they make some of the best people to start Bible studies because they're starting things with such fresh eyes that they will ask you questions you hadn't thought would be asked. 


[00:26:34] Like, you didn't even think to ask them. Like, if you've been a Like, there's certain things that you just take as read, and then a new Christian will ask you a question that's so fundamental that you think, What? Actually, I have no clue. I'm like, Koda, you and I actually go to a Bible study that's run by a fairly new Christian, and he approaches everything with, like, such a sense of wonder. 


[00:26:55] Like, it's a wide eyed, childlike wonder that he, And he looks at everything, and he's like, I want to know more about this, and I want to know more about this, and I want to know about the history, and I want to know about what the Bible says, but what is the Bible actually saying about this? And is there more history, and is that relevant today? 


[00:27:10] And yeah, so I would say that for certain areas of leadership, and I do consider that to be a form of leadership, yes, you absolutely can be someone who's not perfect, who's fairly rough around the edges, fairly young and not very experienced, and then start into that specific realm of leadership. From there, things do grow. 


[00:27:28] And when we get to the higher levels of leadership, That is something that's very time consuming, absolutely. I agree, it's not something that is going to consume 100 percent of your time. But in a sense, it still does. Like, you are bringing Christ into everything that you do. So, even in the realm of the job that you have. 


[00:27:46] I find that people who are leaders in the church frequently are also leaders in other realms. and you're still representing the church. And I think that's the hardest thing that a leader in the church has to accept. It's the fact that this isn't a hat you put on and take off. It's like, you're not here on Sunday, and then everyone sees you and is like, oh great, he's got the preacher hat, takes it off, and now he's just Phil. 


[00:28:08] It's like, hey, it's Phil the preacher, and then it's Phil the regular dude, and we have different standards for both. No, you're always that guy. To your entire congregation, and the second anyone at your work, your job, finds out that you're a leader in the church, suddenly now you are Phil the pastor. 


[00:28:22] Everyone is going to see you that way. So you have to be Phil the Pastor 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Even though you aren't Phil the Pastor 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. And so, there are different ways of handling that. Gina, I know there are some people who met you back when you were doing your other podcast. 


[00:28:39] For those of you who don't know, Gina is actually a celebrity. She's done a few podcasts. 


[00:28:42] Gina: Oh, stop 


[00:28:43] Ben: it. But there are folks who had a certain image of who you were. 


[00:28:46] Gina: Yeah. 


[00:28:47] Ben: And I'm sure there are plenty of people who have images of us, who we are and who we are outside of this podcast. And honestly, I think we try to act as we really are on this podcast, but we can't be 100%. 


[00:28:58] Cody: Extremely flawed. 


[00:29:00] Ben: I yell 


[00:29:00] Cody: a lot. 


[00:29:02] Ben: We are different people, not vastly different people in the way we present ourselves on this podcast, but obviously there are flaws that don't come out in this format that you would find very quickly If you were to meet us in person, we are flawed people and you have to understand your pastor is as well, but your pastor also needs to understand that everyone is looking to him, to you, if you're a pastor for guidance. 


[00:29:24] They're looking to you as the standard for the highest point of what a Christian can be. And that's something that's outlined in 1 Timothy chapter 3 verses 1 through 7. It's talking about an overseer, essentially what a pastor would be. And it says, Here is a trustworthy saying. If anyone sets his heart on being an overseer, or a pastor if you like, he desires a noble task. 


[00:29:45] Now the overseer must be above reproach. The husband of but one wife, Temperate, self controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money, he must manage his own family well, and see that his children obey him with proper respect, after all, if anybody does not know how to manage his own family, How can he take care of God's church? 


[00:30:10] He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil's trap. That is a very high bar. And it's something you'll note, that's not something that you just do at your church. 


[00:30:28] Those are qualities that you have outside the church before you even consider becoming an overseer, becoming a pastor. It's an absurdly high bar. So yeah, like you were saying, if you want to become a pastor, you have to seriously consider why it is you want to do this. 


[00:30:46] Gina: So I took a job at our church for about a year. 


[00:30:50] As they like retail operations person. And one of the things that I learned was that it didn't matter if I was just making the coffee, people thought that I was on the same level as some like holy pastor person. And it didn't matter what I was doing or where I was. I couldn't. Take two steps without people stopping me and wanting to talk about things and they would tell me the most like unexpected pieces of information that I had no need to know and they would just share these things and be super vulnerable and ask my opinion and ask my advice and It's just become really obvious to me that people like desperately need somebody to talk to And they desperately need to be led and to be guided, and it's not good enough for them to sit through a sermon. 


[00:31:38] They want a personal relationship. I think they're confusing that personal relationship with a pastor with their personal relationship with God, because you can truly unburden yourself through prayer to God and feel so much better. But there's something about confession. People love to confess and, and that was one of the hardest things about being in a position of leadership in my church was just like the volume of people that needed me all the time. 


[00:32:08] And that like, Not even being in a pastoral role, having that amount of responsibility was a huge weight. And it, it wasn't like burdensome because I didn't want to help. It was just like seeing these gaps for these poor people and, and wanting to help them and not really feeling equipped to help them and not being in a role that was appropriate to help them. 


[00:32:30] It was really challenging and Normal, everyday layman Christians are not trained on identifying who the right person to talk to is, or if a pastor is truly trustworthy, and I've gotten really bad advice from pastors. Like I've gotten advice from pastors that if I had taken, I would be dead right now. So I think that goes back to one of the notes I put, guard your heart and do not lay your pearls before swine. 


[00:32:55] Like how do you discern who you can trust? That ties into leadership quite a bit. And you have to be trustworthy in the leadership position, and you have to be willing to ask for help, too. I also took that job with bad intentions, so not like nefarious intentions, but prideful intentions. 


[00:33:14] Cody: You just wanted all the free coffee. 


[00:33:16] Gina: I don't even drink coffee. 


[00:33:18] Cody: If you're looking to be a leader in any capacity, whether it's a group leader, whether it's a certain modality inside the church, leader. or if it's a pastor leadership, there is an immense weight that comes with that, that you should take very seriously because at the end of the day, it's not a sports game where you're, you're leading your team to victory. 


[00:33:45] And what's just a game at the end of the day, this is people's souls. This is how they relate with God. They're going to look up to you and expect that connection. And scripture tells us in Matthew, Many will come and say, Lord, And Jesus is going to say, depart from me because I never knew you. And James, it tells us that leadership comes with a more strict judgment. 


[00:34:11] We will be judged more strictly being in that leadership role. And advises people to not go into leadership because of that. And I think that's overlooked a lot too. Just the gravity of what leading people to Christ means. For 


[00:34:29] Ben: Yeah, I find that many of the leaders who end up true leaders who end up in their positions and deserve to be are people who go reluctantly. 


[00:34:38] They're people who understand the weight of the burden that they're taking on and they don't want it, but they see the need. And so they say, Lord, I don't want to do this, but I see I need to, and I know you're calling me to do it. So I'm stepping out in faith. Please help me do this. And there's a lot of humility in that approach. 


[00:34:55] I've also known younger pastors who. They were very proud and they felt like they had answers to every question and they felt like they were going to be able. To give the answers that would satisfy everyone because they'd heard tons of other messages before and they felt like all of the other people that they listened to wear old hat. 


[00:35:13] And it said all the things that every other pastor prior to them had said they were going to be the fresh new thing. They were going to speak, the words that no one else was willing to say. And then they got up on that stage and they were horrible. Or even worse, they were amazing, but God wasn't with them. 


[00:35:29] And there's a very famous case of that with Billy Graham. When he was first starting out, there was another guy who was preaching with him. I don't remember that guy's name and most people don't, but apparently early on this guy that was with Billy, everyone thought that he was going to be the guy. That everyone was going to come to know, everyone was going to follow, because he was charismatic, and he knew all the right words to say, and it seemed like he knew the Bible even better than Billy Graham did. 


[00:35:54] And Billy Graham, while he was very faithful, wasn't quite as experienced or wasn't quite as good in the early days. But eventually the two paths for the two men diverged, and the one guy became an atheist, and he completely fell away from the church. And his fall away, he brought a bunch of people with him. 


[00:36:09] Like I said earlier, you become twice the child of hell as he is. When you follow the wrong leader, you fall even harder than they do. And that's your responsibility as a leader. If you're taking that on, recognize that we've said many times, you should not look to your leader like this. You shouldn't treat that person as Christ. 


[00:36:28] Christ is Christ. We are following Christ. These people are trying to shepherd you to understand Christ better. But understand as a leader, Most people aren't going to see that. They're going to look to you for answers. They're going to look to you as the beacon, as that city on the hill. And if that hill collapses, the city does too. 


[00:36:47] Cody: As a leader, you should be trying to express how flawed you are to prevent that type of praise from other people. 


[00:36:56] Gina: It's a form of idolatry, really. 


[00:36:58] Cody: Yes. 


[00:36:59] Gina: Like if you're because if you think about like the celebrity like oh, I idolize such and such. They're so beautiful. They're so smart Whatever. They're so talented. 


[00:37:08] Like if you're putting your pastor in that position, that's idolatry You're idolizing a human being over God like and then to expect that person to be perfect The only one that was the only human being that was ever perfect was Jesus and we know that So why are we putting a person in that place? 


[00:37:25] Cody: In defensive driving, one of the things that they always tell you to do or not do is not look at what you're trying to avoid. 


[00:37:34] And I think the same thing can be applied to your pursuit of Christ. If you're looking to be just like your pastor, you're going to miss the mark. But if you're looking to be like Jesus, is where You'll prevail even if your pastor falls, or when your pastor falls, or fails you in one way, shape, or form. 


[00:37:57] That's when you will continue to carry on. Not when you're trying to be like some man, but when you're trying to be what God is calling you to be. 


[00:38:06] Gina: How would you encourage somebody to identify the desire for power and control over the gift of leadership? 


[00:38:13] Ben: So ultimately that comes down to the individual person. 


[00:38:17] The desire for power doesn't really come out of nowhere, it's typically something that you carry with you for most of your life. For me, I'm actually a person who really enjoys having power over other people. I've been open about this, it was one of the first things I talked about in the early episodes. 


[00:38:32] I enjoy knowledge, I enjoy having a degree of Control over people that knowledge gives me and so pride and all of the vices that come with it are the things that I've had to be very cognizant of. I've had to be very aware of the fact that a very dark path waits for me if I don't keep myself in check and if I don't keep humbling myself and remembering. 


[00:38:54] That in the end, Christ is the figurehead. Christ is the highest point. And I need to remember that no matter what, no matter how much knowledge I amass, in the end, I don't know very much. The man who knows the most in the world knows nothing next to Christ. But recognizing a lust for power versus a desire to lead. 


[00:39:11] Again, I find that most of the people who are true leaders are people who are reluctant. They're people who are called because God chooses them, not because they were born with an innate talent. And to be fair, there are some people involved in ministry who have that innate talent and are incredible orators. 


[00:39:28] But most of the time I find that the people who are really called to it, the people who have the most power, who God does the most with, just like in the Bible, are the people you wouldn't expect. It's just like Gideon. That's not a guy you would have expected. If you look at the list of judges. Every judge, every ruler that God chose, even coming up to the first kings of Israel. 


[00:39:48] The first king that God chose was Saul, and that was the king that Israel wanted. A strong man, a powerful man, a man who was a full head taller than everyone else, who could put all the rest of the kings of the world to shame, and then he put God to shame. He put God last. He did what he wanted as opposed to what God wanted. 


[00:40:04] And so God chose David as the second king for himself. And every single judge that you can find throughout the Bible, they were people who you wouldn't expect, who came out of nowhere. They didn't come from some royal line. They didn't have a history of being some kind of bard in a tavern who could enchant everybody with their music or whatever nonsense. 


[00:40:22] They were people who were farmers, who came from nowhere. Some of them were chosen at birth and some of them were chosen closer to the twilight years. One of them was a woman. The point is that God will choose his leaders where he chooses them. You can't predict where they're going to come from. And very often he chooses the people who are the least skilled so that his power and his will, his ability is the most clearly seen. 


[00:40:44] Gina: One thing that I've learned as a woman, speaking of females in leadership, is that comparison has been like the most poisonous thing that. I've observed in leadership within the church, especially among women, and it prevents us from feeling joy for other people when they receive a blessing or, um, a title or a job, but it also creates a certain level of insecurity within ourselves. 


[00:41:14] That forces us to hold on a little too tight to the role that we're in right now. And I think the best thing to realize in any form of leadership is that not only can it be taken away, but it can shift. And so while the tides might have brought in this important and impactful role for you in a season of your life, It can just as easily change into something that may be less impactful. 


[00:41:43] And I think it's just really important to lean into that and be obedient to that. Because if you're doing it in service to the Lord, the title and I think even sometimes the compensation and the competition aren't going to matter to you. And it's all about intention again. Try to avoid comparison. We're so, it's so ingrained in our culture, in our society, and we're all uniquely gifted. 


[00:42:08] And the way that you are gifted from the Lord spiritually, and also just in your normal everyday life talents and abilities, is going to differ from other people. And what's powerful and meaningful right now is going to change tomorrow. And that doesn't change your value as a human being. It doesn't change the impact that you've already had on God's kingdom. 


[00:42:27] And it doesn't change the fact that you've been a good and faithful servant. So holding on too tightly to those titles and to those positions of power and authority isn't going to do you any justice, any service. And honestly, it's just super dishonoring to the Lord. So that's my final spiel on that. 


[00:42:44] Ben: You bring up a very good point, Gina. 


[00:42:45] It was something I didn't even think to cover, and I don't want it to be a full afterthought, but I think it does definitely need to be talked about. There comes a point in every leader's life where they have to step down. Your time leading the church will end. I've known quite a few people now. I'm even related to one. 


[00:43:03] My father was heavily involved in leadership in the church that I came from in Wisconsin. It is very hard. To step down once you've tasted that, once you've lived as a leader for the church. And it's very hard to not see that as some kind of failing. I've known some people who've decided to hold on to it jealously because they think no one else can do it and it becomes about you and not about the position. 


[00:43:29] It is very hard to let go and to trust that this isn't a slight against you but it's God moving you on to another period of your life, just like you were talking about, Gina. It isn't that God doesn't trust you anymore, or that He doesn't love you, or that He doesn't have more in store for you. He's moving you on to another period of your life, another phase, another season. 


[00:43:49] There was a season where you had a specific job, a specific part of your body. And this is something that both of you talked about earlier. You are not fixed as an ear, you're not fixed as a mouth, you're not fixed as a nose on the body of Christ. At one time or another, you will be a different body part. 


[00:44:03] You can change. And God moving you from one part that seems more honorable to another part that doesn't seem as honorable, it's not wrong. No. No matter what, you are a part of the same body. We all have the honor of being a part of that body. And some parts that we find to be the most unpresentable are presented with a specific amount of dignity. 


[00:44:22] This is something that the Bible talks about. So, it is hard to let go. It is hard to find the time to say, you know what, I feel the Lord is telling me it's time to end this. To move on and let someone else take my position and it's hard to set your pride aside and say it's not about me And it's not about my ability There's nothing special about me. 


[00:44:43] What's special is Christ and that time please remember it really isn't about you It is about Christ and he loves you and he is still going to honor you. But now is the time to step down 


[00:44:56] Gina: Thank you so much for taking the time to listen to our podcast today. If you liked what you heard, please feel free to subscribe and share and leave a positive review. 


[00:45:05] And if you would like to connect with us on social media, you can do so on Instagram and Facebook at the Logic of God. You can also send us an email at Maine dot the Logic of god@gmail.com. Thanks again for listening. We hope you have a great day.

Relationship With Church Part 1

[00:00:00] Cody: Hi, thank you for tuning in to the Logic of God podcast. I'm Cody. 


[00:00:14] Gina: I'm Gina. 


[00:00:14] Cody: And I'm Ben. If you're returning, thank you for coming back and if you are a new guest, welcome. 


[00:00:34] Gina: So we've learned how to read the Bible. And study the Bible. And we've talked about how to find a church. So now that I've found my church, what do I do with it? 


[00:00:46] Ben: Yeah, that's a good question. So for a lot of people, they may have found some kind of a church, but they maybe only attend once or twice a year. 


[00:00:54] So like once for Easter, once for Christmas, and then that's more or less enough, and then they'll say they're Christian, but it really doesn't go farther than that. So, what really is the minimum amount you should be going to church? The minimum, because 


[00:01:06] Cody: the least amount of what I need to do to be saved is what I go for every time. 


[00:01:12] Gina: Listen, I want eternity for the bare minimum. 


[00:01:14] Ben: Yeah, that is the attitude I think a lot of people approach this. It's like, okay, what's the minimum amount for God to know that I'm here? I'm part of the team. And I got my get out of hell free card. And then that's it. I can do what I want with my time. I think the better question is, what should you be seeking? 


[00:01:29] Like, what's the amount of time at church a person starting out should be looking to do? 


[00:01:33] Gina: Is it your goal to check a box or is it your goal to have a relationship? Because with or without church, you have the option of a relationship with God. And you don't build that relationship solely through church. 


[00:01:48] Cody: If you're just checking a box, you need to be there for Wednesday Bible study, Saturday for mission outreach, Sunday morning for worship. 


[00:01:56] Gina: I wish my church did that. Sorry. 


[00:02:00] Cody: The old school. 


[00:02:02] Gina: Yeah. 


[00:02:03] Ben: Yeah, so the question is, what is your goal? If your goal is that you're testing the waters, you're trying to find the church, you're trying to figure out what church you want, It doesn't make sense for you to go to that church and then just start attending every single thing. 


[00:02:16] Like, you know, the pastor's washing the windows. You go to a pew and you watch him do it, like Mark Lowry used to say. Like, that's not reasonable. You start going regularly, like once a week. You give it some time. You find out if you agree with the church, its doctrines, if you agree with the pastor, if you like the pastor, if you like the worship. 


[00:02:35] If everything is more or less what you hope for, then yeah, you should be going regularly every week, but that's not where it should stop. If we were to look at this in terms of a relationship with a person, like let's say that you have someone that you're going out with and you think, okay, so I want to know the minimum amount of time that I need to stay with this person. 


[00:02:52] I'll go out with them once a week. I will sit with them for an hour and then that's it. 


[00:02:57] Gina: That sounds a little clingy, Ben. 


[00:02:59] Ben: A little demanding, a little needy. 


[00:03:02] Cody: What if I show up after worship's done and only get the last With Starbucks and only get the last portion of the sermon. Is that enough? 


[00:03:10] Ben: No. The idea is that Christ is a person. 


[00:03:13] You're trying to get to know Him. You're trying to get closer to Him. And if all you're doing is coming once a week, like, that's a fine place to start, but once you start getting settled into the church, you should really start looking for more than just that. There are going to be events that your church throws, And you don't have to go to every single one of those. 


[00:03:30] You should be looking for the ones that either you feel you can contribute through volunteering or ones that you feel like you could be edified in. And even some that you don't think you would necessarily be. There's a certain programs like Celebrate Recovery that are at different churches. And you may not think that there's anything you specifically need freedom from, which is what the idea behind Celebrate Recovery is. 


[00:03:48] We 


[00:03:48] Gina: all need freedom. 


[00:03:49] Ben: We all have something that's holding us down. We all have something in our past that's holding us back. And if you go to celebrate recovery, you'll find that there are a lot of people who've struggled with things that may be able to help you out in your own personal struggles. 


[00:04:00] Gina: I want to backtrack for a second because I want to. 


[00:04:04] Specify, first, the church's role in your relationship with God. I think that a lot of people come to church, and they either have hit a point where they just need a change, or they're almost maybe at their last ditch effort to help whatever problems they're going through, and so church becomes their only hope. 


[00:04:22] Instead of God being their only hope, because they go and they're welcomed and these people are warm and kind to them in most cases and the pastor takes this role of Jesus and the church takes this role of God and we've forgotten all about the pursuit of the relationship with God. And so I want to put church in the right place because it's important, but it's not the most important part of your relationship with God. 


[00:04:46] Your most important part of your relationship is your attention on God and your obedience to God. So I want to start there just because I know for myself when I was a new believer, I totally had it all mixed up. And I believed that my pastors and the leaders in my church were perfect and that my life could be like that if I was good enough. 


[00:05:05] And it just really created an unhealthy expectation for me in my relationship with my church and in my relationship with God. As soon as something went wrong, my relationship with God was over. So I want to like lead from there because people get church hurt and then they quit church. And they quit God. 


[00:05:24] So, any thoughts, Cody? 


[00:05:26] Cody: No, I'm just here for the ride. No, no, I think that's a very good place to start. We, like you said, put the pastors or the church itself on a pedestal, and instead of, coming there to be edified, we decide that it needs to be this perfect thing. And if it's not, we get frustrated and either leave the church or we put too much investment in the leaders of the church and we'll leave because they're not saying the right things or doing the right things. 


[00:05:56] So that will end up throwing you off. But like you said, you got to realize that they're people too. They still sin. They still have struggles. And they will let you down at some point in time, a church will let you down at some point in time, but you got to remember that it is not a end all be all. It is a continual effort from the church itself and from yourself. 


[00:06:21] Gina: I like to say church is a hospital. You're sometimes going to find the most broken people there. Like, people at work and even in your social circle aren't as likely to be vulnerable with you, but at church it's a different ballgame. And when there's vulnerability, there's a lot of, like, anger or sensitivity to things like rejection or gossip and being made fun of. 


[00:06:41] And so I've seen a lot of people struggle with their relationship with church because of those things. If you go in expecting that making the decision to be a Christian and go to church is going to change everything, and that the people that are leading that organization are perfect, you're going to be disappointed every single time. 


[00:06:59] Cody: Yeah, a church is full of sinners, and it becomes less perfect the moment you walk through the door. 


[00:07:07] Ben: It's important to remember that the Bible refers to all of us as brothers and sisters in Christ. And this includes your pastor, it includes your deacons, it includes all of the people in the church leadership. 


[00:07:17] And as brothers and sisters, no one of us is higher than the other. Now, we do have people like pastors and deacons. We do have people who are further along in their journey with Christ. And so, we will defer to these people to try to help us to get to the same place that they're at right now. But just because they're a bit further in their walk, one, doesn't mean that they're perfect. 


[00:07:38] And two, doesn't mean that everything that they say is right. And so, as Christians, and as a part of the church body, as their brothers and sisters, we, one, do need to hold these people accountable, who we consider to be church leadership. And two, we need to hold each other accountable. And so it's important for you, if you're starting in this church body, if you're still fairly new, to try to get to the point where you can help hold other people accountable. 


[00:08:00] And if you're not quite there yet, then it's important to make yourself open to be held accountable. Because when you do that, you're actually being a guiding light for other people. It's very inspiring to see someone who is very new to Christianity, who is opening themselves up and saying, Okay, whatever it is that I'm doing, I want to know that I'm doing it for Christ. 


[00:08:18] I want you to let me know. And granted, there is some danger in that. I know of some people who are a bit too open and they just take in everything. And sometimes they'll get contradictory ideas. They'll start to get different doctrines and they don't know what to do with them. Be wary of that when you start out, but for the most part, staying open and staying teachable, trying to get to the point where you can instruct others is an important first step. 


[00:08:41] Gina: So we've established that we found a church. It's not good enough to just show up and then leave and not do anything with it. We've talked about how often to attend. But what about church involvement? 


[00:08:55] Cody: So how much involvement should you have in a church? Ben outlined going to events, serving, stuff like that. 


[00:09:03] That's good advice for newer Christians, but what about the more Seated Christians like how much serving is to how much involvement is too much like when should you evaluate your? Serving in a church setting inside the four walls 


[00:09:20] Gina: Can you list for somebody list the ways to get involved like what that would look like for somebody who doesn't know? 


[00:09:27] Ben: So it depends on the church, but there's generally a A hierarchy of needs in every church, and they're very similar. So, like, there's childcare, a nursery in pretty much every church, because you need to have some place that's safe for your children to be dropped off. And they are chronically understaffed in pretty much every single church that you go to. 


[00:09:44] Because nobody wants to be there. and take care of someone else's kids. They want to be at the service and listening to the pastor and have the freedom to come and go as they please. So that's one place. Um, a lot of churches have greeters. That's a very easy thing to do. And also it's another one of those things where they don't have a lot of people to help out. 


[00:10:00] You just stand in front of the church and you greet people. You smile and say hello. That's really all you need to do. It's a simple thing, but it really does help for people who are brand new and are coming in and they don't really know what to think about this place. Seeing a friendly face and someone who shakes your hand, and even takes the time, I've known a lot of greeters who take the time to try to learn people's names. 


[00:10:18] And they memorize tons of names. And they do their best to strike up very brief conversations with each person. It is a skill, and it's a wonderful thing if you can do it well and do it right. But even if you don't know how to do it yet, just volunteering there and saying hi to people as they come into church is a great way to help out. 


[00:10:35] Also, you'll find that there are certain things that aren't necessarily jobs in the church, but if you just go up to your pastor and say, Hey, so What can I do to help? Some pastors are out working 70 hours a week, just trying to do literally everything possible. And this kind of goes, Cody, to what you were talking about with, when's it too much? 


[00:10:52] There are certain pastors who try to take literally every single job possible. 


[00:10:56] Gina: Or even like volunteers that will do that. 


[00:10:58] Ben: Yes, there are pastors. There are volunteers. I've known both. People who feel the weight of the church, the responsibility, and they feel a genuine calling to help. But they don't say no every single time there is anything that pops up They feel like if they don't take it No one else will And to an extent they're right because there are a lot of people who just don't want to help out in the church They want to show up the once a week and they feel that's enough and then they disappear And so there are a handful of people who will volunteer for literally everything and i've seen this in every church that i've ever been In there's a handful of people who show up to literally everything. 


[00:11:29] They do not sleep. I don't think they sleep They don't sleep And they just, they volunteer for everything, no matter what it is. And it doesn't even matter if they know what they're doing, they will go and they will serve, but then they get burnt out and nobody comes to help them, nobody comes to swap them in or out. 


[00:11:44] So yeah, in those instances, find those people and just ask, look, what can I do to help you? What can I do to ease your burden? You're performing an act of service and doing that, and you may not know what you're doing. It's okay. And it may feel awkward asking, but I guarantee you, they're going to appreciate it. 


[00:11:58] And maybe they'll turn you away at first. Cause it's a point of pride for a lot of people. 


[00:12:03] Gina: It's also like, I've had a lot of experience like interviewing people to volunteer and there are certain volunteer teams where you need a certain level of trust and relationship before you'll be invited onto a team, especially like things that revolve around like financial or counting tithe money and things like that. 


[00:12:22] Don't take it personally if you're an accountant and you think you would be really awesome at helping with the contributions and then it doesn't work out for you right away. It's something that takes a lot of trust and a lot of time before you would be welcomed into a team like that and it's not personal. 


[00:12:38] Ben: And if you know you would be good, like a good fit in a certain area of the church, then please be persistent. Like, don't just take the first no as, okay, I guess I'm not supposed to do this. No, like Gina said, sometimes it's just a matter of trust. Sometimes it's a matter of getting to know the people in the church first. 


[00:12:54] So this goes out both to people who are fresh. If you're completely fresh, there are certain jobs you're just not going to get. Just walking up to the pastor day one and saying, hey, what can I do? That's not likely to get you anywhere. You have to have been there a while. People have to know who you are, know your name at the very least, before they're going to start trusting you to do anything. 


[00:13:13] Gina: And that's not to say like, Most churches have like a background check system in place, so even if there's not a place immediately for you to serve because of a process that they have to place you on a team, even if you have a history of like certain activities or whatever, there's usually still a place for you to serve. 


[00:13:31] It just takes some time to find the right fit. And it's not, like, if your church is treating you with disrespect because of that, or they're, maybe you haven't done anything in your past and you still feel like you can't find your place, I would speak up and say so, or try to find a different church home. 


[00:13:49] There are some churches that are really tiny, and we've found that they are super exclusive and they don't want outside help, and you're a stranger to them, and that's the culture of their church. But some churches are really in need of people who are willing to help and serve, and so if that's you, someone's no to you can be your yes somewhere else, and it can be a huge blessing. 


[00:14:10] So try not to take it personally if you feel rejected by a church or by a certain team, because it's not like a forever thing, and there are other opportunities out there. And you can also take it upon yourself to serve outside of the church. I don't know if that's something you want to talk about. 


[00:14:24] That's something that we've taken on ourselves. 


[00:14:26] Cody: Yeah, going back to the serving. So we talked about how you can get involved in what to do from a volunteer perspective, coming in and wanting to serve. But ministry burnout is very high and a real thing. So on the flip side of that, you So, as a leader in these aspects, if you're feeling any kind of burnout, most congregants or new people to the church would love to feel useful and to fulfill a need, not just another warm body, but to fulfill an actual need that is stressing you out or causing maybe you can't put your heart into it. 


[00:15:05] So it's not as good as it could be. There's somebody that you can pass that off to. And a story I like to use for that is. When Moses was taking on all of the problems of the Israelites, his father in law had some really good advice of establishing leadership in that role so Moses could pass that off, where these other individuals would get a blessing out of being useful, while also easing the stress and burden on Moses. 


[00:15:35] And I think that's in Exodus 18, but it's a good philosophy to have if you're feeling burnout or you don't feel like you have enough space or time to do what is on your plate. 


[00:15:45] Ben: I think there is a temptation amongst a lot of people in leadership. To take on too much because you feel overburdened, and that's the way it's supposed to be. 


[00:15:54] I do think that there is this image of the man who's strong and struggles on nobly and takes on everything and takes on all the burdens of the church and does everything without giving a thought to themselves. 


[00:16:05] Gina: It's like that monk idea where they used to like, 


[00:16:09] Ben: Yeah, it is a kind of modern version of self flagellation, but without the whip. 


[00:16:13] It's the idea that you should be suffering. And I think that is a kind of corrupted idea of the truth. To some degree, we are all suffering because there is an aspect of ourselves that is sinful. And so we are struggling against that to try to be better. But I think that there is such a thing as unnecessary suffering. 


[00:16:31] If you are taking on jobs as a leader, that could be delegated out to other people who could do the job just as good or better than you can. You are denying them the blessing that they could be having in their lives. You are denying yourself peace, and you are denying your family the peace that they would have with you being more present. 


[00:16:49] Gina: Absolutely. 


[00:16:50] Cody: And that goes into our next point really well because The church is described as many body parts, and the leader is going to be the head, or in biblical terms, the Christ is the head, and then you have your various body parts after that. But not everybody's going to be a hand, not everybody's going to be a leg, you're going to have some toenails in there, but everybody has a different function and purpose inside of the church body. 


[00:17:18] A sign of a good leader is to be able to exploit those other people, the other congregants, or other brothers and sisters in Christ. Exploit their strengths and hone in on those and develop those and put them in roles where you're feeling comfortable. overburdened or you're taking on too much to further God's kingdom. 


[00:17:39] Ben: And this is something that does need to be approached at both ends. So at the top level, as the leader, you should be constantly looking for people who are in your congregation, who can fulfill the different roles. Become the different body parts of the body of Christ. But then also as the congregation, as an individual member, you should constantly be looking for those roles that you can fulfill. 


[00:18:00] You should be looking to shift the burden off of the people who are already lifting. You should be looking to join in that. 


[00:18:05] Cody: Definitely. 


[00:18:06] Gina: So my opinion at the beginning about like, what's your intention? Where's your heart when you pick a church and go to a church? What is your intention behind serving? Are you trying to earn your salvation? 


[00:18:18] Are you trying to buddy your way up to being best friends with the pastor just because you like being in the cool kids club? What's your intention? Because, like, I've learned the hard way with intention that if your heart's not in the right place or you're looking to fulfill something in yourself that maybe it has nothing to do with the Lord, you're going to be exhausted. 


[00:18:39] You're going to have that imbalance that Ben was just talking about. And I've seen it in leadership and I've also seen it as a volunteer myself and in other volunteers and I don't know, like just knowing your intention, knowing why you would choose to serve or lead or help in certain ways is really important. 


[00:18:58] Like evaluating that constantly. Anytime somebody asks you to do more is really important because you'll get caught up wanting to people please. And, like, when stuff goes wrong in your life, those people may not necessarily care. I feel like if you're not building it on a firm foundation and, and developing relationships for the right reasons and serving for the right reasons, you're going to find yourself disappointed and burn out. 


[00:19:23] That's my wisdom. 


[00:19:24] Ben: Now, I think it's worth noting, because there are probably plenty of people who are listening and are thinking, okay. So this is all well and good for people who have, like, very good marketable skills that would work in a church setting. Like, let's say there's someone who's experienced in sound design, or someone who's experienced with working lights at shows at a theater or something, or people who are very good at public speaking, or people who are experienced with child care, things like that. 


[00:19:50] But there are some people who may feel like they have literally nothing to offer. Now, one, I don't buy that. If you're listening to this and thinking, well, I'm just not good at anything, like I said, you could literally stand in front of the church and shake people's hands and smile. If you can't do that, or you feel anxious about doing that kind of thing, I understand. 


[00:20:06] There are people who are not very good at that. The idea is that there are very simple things that you can do for your church that are very helpful. But setting that aside, let's say that it's true and you literally do have nothing to offer the church in terms of your own physical ability. Cody referenced the chapter and verse in the Bible that talks about the body of Christ, how we all are basically different parts. 


[00:20:26] That's actually found in 1 Corinthians chapter 12, verses 27 through 31. And it outlines a lot more than just the fact that we are the body of Christ. It actually outlines things called spiritual gifts. So, real quick, I'll go ahead and go through that. That's, again, 1 Corinthians chapter 12, verses 27 through 31. 


[00:20:44] Now, you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those who have gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. 


[00:21:03] Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? Eagerly desire the greater gifts. The idea is that there are certain gifts that God can gift anybody, even if you have nothing to offer coming into the church to start, and God can give you the gift that you need in order to be helpful to be that part of the body that you need to be. 


[00:21:29] Now, I do think there may be certain people listening to this who think, okay. You had me up to this point, but now you're talking about, like, weird spirit stuff, and speaking in tongues, really healing people. Like, yeah, that's, it's all fine and good to say that people like Peter could do that, or John could do that, or Jesus could do that. 


[00:21:47] Like, they were great people who existed a long time ago, that stuff doesn't happen now, I can't do that. Like, what would you guys have to say to people who come at it from that perspective? 


[00:21:55] Gina: We can agree to disagree. 


[00:21:58] Ben: Sounds like you're still a child 


[00:21:59] Gina: of God. 


[00:21:59] Cody: They need to up their prayer game. 


[00:22:02] Gina: Yeah, I mean, I am not very extreme in my beliefs as far as the charismatic stuff goes. 


[00:22:09] Like, I have, I don't believe I've ever heard somebody speak in tongues in an authentic way. I have never witnessed a miraculous healing. I have stories of Healings that have happened in our family, but it wasn't like the laying on of hands and the anointing and then suddenly somebody got up and ran around the church. 


[00:22:30] I've never seen that. So, do I believe it's possible? Anything is possible. Do I believe that I have those gifts? No. But that doesn't mean they don't exist. And also, I haven't pursued knowledge of those gifts specifically because of certain experiences I've had in my life. So, like I, I'm not going to ever say that those don't exist anymore and there are certain gifts that I've experienced and that I have myself, but I just, I don't know. 


[00:22:57] I could never see myself putting a finite answer on something like that. What about you, sir? 


[00:23:02] Cody: What about me? 


[00:23:03] Gina: What's your belief on this whole body of Christ thing? Are you a toenail? 


[00:23:07] Cody: I'm a toenail. 


[00:23:08] Gina: Thought so. 


[00:23:09] Cody: I'm the least of these. I'm the little pinky toenail. But as far as spiritual gifts go, I'm in line with Gina. 


[00:23:15] Gina: What she said. 


[00:23:16] Cody: What she said. Um, grew up, not necessarily cessation ist, but is that how you say it? Cessation ist. Yes, you did it. I always say sensation alist, but I think that would be the opposite of cessation ist. But, uh. Yeah, I grew up not full blown cessationist, like, church going and what I was brought up on, but pretty much, like, the charismatic movement in the church I grew up in was non existent. 


[00:23:47] They talked about the Holy Spirit or the Holy Ghost in the King James Version, but it wasn't until recently that I've opened my eyes to that. Not necessarily that I've seen that, but it's still active today. 


[00:24:01] Gina: He is still active today. 


[00:24:02] Ben: Yes. 


[00:24:03] Gina: Correct. Correct. 


[00:24:04] Ben: Mm 


[00:24:04] Cody: hmm. 


[00:24:05] Gina: You haven't said what you think. 


[00:24:06] Ben: So I grew up with a father who actually has a lot of these gifts. 


[00:24:10] He does speak in tongues, and he speaks fairly regularly, as well as my mother. And he does have the gift of healing. He is able to pray for people and heal them, and he has done that in the past. And he does have the gift of prophecy. And there were actually quite a few people in my church growing up who had that gift. 


[00:24:25] So this is, unfortunately, I'm coming into this particular segment fairly biased because I've been around it my entire life. And I've experienced it to a lesser degree in my own life. It's definitely been something that's been more prominent with my father and my mother and with a lot of the people in the church leadership for the church I grew up in. 


[00:24:45] For me, not as prominently. But that's more because for most of my life I actually had a fairly firm hand up keeping Christ at a distance. Because I was always afraid of spiritual things and spiritual stuff. Because of things that happened when I was very young. But I'm as certain as I can be about just about anything that these gifts still exist today. 


[00:25:05] For Because I, I don't believe that my father's a liar, and I don't believe that my mother's a liar, and I don't believe that anybody It was a part of my old church growing up was a liar and they talked about these gifts and they talked about going on missions trips and doing miraculous healings. And there's studies that have been done on this that are cited in Lee Strobel's The Case for Miracles. 


[00:25:25] And there was a study that was done by Dr. Candy Gunther Brown about whether or not people can pray for other people and then have it be healed. And you can make the argument as to whether or not that is a gift of healing or if that's just us asking God and then God does it. I think that's ultimately where a lot of the conflict in this area comes between different segments of Christianity. 


[00:25:45] And I think it's not super helpful to try to dissect all of this in the short segment that we have here, so I won't go too deep into it. But I think the idea is that are the gifts something you have or is it something that God is doing through you? And I think we all agree there are things that God can do through people. 


[00:26:03] So whether or not you want to say that there are gifts like that are outlined in 1 Corinthians chapter 12. That there are gifts that God will give an individual person and that gift is yours. And yes, he is working through you, but in the end, it's something that he has given you, just like he's given every other good thing in your life. 


[00:26:22] Or if it's something that God just does, externally, just like he can do a miracle anywhere. We all agree that God can do miracles, and if you open yourself up to him, he can do a miracle through you, whether or not you want to call that a spiritual gift. So the idea is that even if you have nothing to offer the church, if you open yourself up to him, I 


[00:26:48] Gina: agree. 


[00:26:49] And I think for those who are maybe newer believers, It's really important, like, just like we say on every episode, don't take our word for it. If you have somebody in your church, or in your life, or maybe even like an influencer that says, like, I'm a prophet, or I am a miracle worker, or whatever title they give themselves, like, I would proceed with caution, and I would say, like, Satan masquerades as an angel of light, and you should really test everything. 


[00:27:17] So anything that you're hearing that refers to these gifts that's being used for self promotion or like fortune telling or like making promises. I would say test it very thoroughly and I would say even doubt it and just take it to the Lord in prayer and maybe even seek wise counsel because it's a slippery slope to go from hearing on a podcast that prophecy is real and then having somebody give you a word that may or may not be from the Lord and running with it. 


[00:27:50] Like, I know so many people who've been like, well, this stranger told me that I was going to have a baby and I am still in the waiting and if God says it, I believe it. And like, who's to say that person really was a prophet. Maybe they had gone through something similar and they felt sorry for them and were able to discern that they were struggling with that, but they really didn't get a word from the Lord. 


[00:28:13] Cody: Yeah. And I'd like to, there's a difference between the prophecy Spiritual gift in the title prophet. I wanna, we spoke about the NAR movement and the title prophet and people claiming that title for themselves. That's a lot different than this prophecy title that, or this prophecy spiritual gift that Paul is speaking about. 


[00:28:36] I believe it's either early, I think it's earlier on in Corinthians, he talks about what prophecy is for and building the church, not necessarily the fortune telling that everybody believes prophets are in today's day and age. 


[00:28:50] Ben: And keep in mind, We would all agree that medicine exists, right? There are also fake miracle cures that people are going to try to push on you. 


[00:28:58] There's also bad science behind certain medical practices. That's why we're constantly developing year on year, and there are things that we used to do in the medical field that we no longer do, because as it turns out, they're harmful. So, Snake oil. Snake oil salesman. So in the same way, you do need to be very prudent. 


[00:29:16] There is the real genuine article. I think there are a lot of people who look at the videos online of fake healings where there's like, Oh, there's a guy with a leg slightly shorter than the other. And now grow and oh, it's the same size now that the legs are the same size And we're like when you 


[00:29:32] Gina: get whipped in the face with a sport coat 


[00:29:36] Cody: The true gifts are not used for self promotion and to further that person's name or ministry like take Benny Hinn for what he's worth, but the sport blazer wave in the crowd where everybody falls down and is instantly healed has been disproven and End These great signs and recordings of him doing these miracles are not really what he portrays. 


[00:30:04] Gina: Satan masquerades as an angel of light. 


[00:30:06] Cody: Mm hmm. Did you just call Bennyhead Satan? 


[00:30:10] Gina: Listen, anyone that I'm not even going there. He's a child of God, okay? 


[00:30:16] Ben: Well, so then that does beg two different questions. One, how do you know if it's the genuine article? And two, how do you get it? If it's real, 


[00:30:24] Gina: well, there's, there are verses that talk about like encouraging people that are not apostles to pray, to have the gift of prophecy because it is one of the most effective means of building the church. 


[00:30:38] And so I believe that you can ask God for wisdom and for prophetic word. I think you can ask God to give you all of the spiritual gifts. Now, will he actually give you all of the spiritual gifts? Probably not. Because I think that we are uniquely gifted and having all of them wouldn't serve God's purpose. 


[00:30:58] But, I do believe that if we don't know what our spiritual gifts are, or if we maybe would like to have another one that's very meaningful to us for whatever reason, then we can ask God for that gift, and He can choose to give it to us. But as far as like identifying the real deal, I don't know that it's, there's a clear cut answer. 


[00:31:21] I think it, it goes with, is there somebody who can interpret that's trustworthy? Is there a certain sense of peace with something that's said? Does the spirit give you any sense of doubt? Because I've, I was at a place one time where somebody stood up on a stage and claimed to be a prophet. The whole time I was like, this isn't real. 


[00:31:43] Like I felt almost like annoyed by it. And I knew like that it was God speaking to me through these really strong emotions. And so I just knew, and like then going home and being able to process and talking to some friends about it, like, feeling peace when I came to terms with the fact that, okay, this is something that was promoted as being authentic, but it wasn't authentic and processing that. 


[00:32:09] But I don't think that there is like a lie detector that we're going to have other than just sensitivity to the Holy Spirit. 


[00:32:17] Cody: Testing it with scripture. I went, we went through a Bible study. Um, the Bible tells us to test every spirit. So how do you test that? The cannon, the measuring rod, It's like if you're chasing the healing, like you're praying for that, and that's the gift that you want, I think that your intentions are misguided. 


[00:32:40] Like you should chase the healer, not the healing. 


[00:32:43] Gina: There's the story in scripture of the guy that tries to buy the power of the Holy Spirit. Yeah, Simon. Yeah. And that would be like my favorite story for having bad intentions for people. The spiritual gifts. 


[00:32:58] Cody: His name was Simon, right? The magician? The sorcerer, yeah. 


[00:33:02] That's a good one. 


[00:33:04] Gina: He wasn't pulling rabbits out of hats. 


[00:33:06] Ben: Yeah, coincidentally, this is something that I was actually talking with my dad about yesterday while we were going for a car ride doing some errands. I was talking with him specifically about the gift of leadership and, you know, how common it is, because that's something that we discussed in one of our previous episodes. 


[00:33:22] And he was talking to me about how when he became a Christian, he was so in love with the Lord that he asked God for every gift. And he genuinely meant it. And it wasn't because he wanted to be some kind of superhero or some nonsense like that. Like, he didn't have this image in his head that he would be going around flying through the air and touching people and healing them and solving all the world's problems. 


[00:33:42] It was, Christ offers these things. He loves Christ. And he's told in the Bible, which he believes in with all his heart, that he should desire the greater gifts and all these things can be his. And through these things, he can serve Christ better. And so it was like, well, yeah, obviously I want these things. 


[00:33:59] And he very quickly got most, if not all of them. Now, my father's unique in that he is a man who has the gift of leadership. And I think, in the hierarchy that's outlined in Chapter 12, at the top is Apostles, who are the leaders of the Church. The true gift of leadership, the spiritual gift of leadership, I think is incredibly rare. 


[00:34:16] And one of the reasons is because it does require that you have a bunch of the other gifts, often. Because you, you're going to be called to do pretty much everything. Now that doesn't mean that you are every part of the body. It's just like it says in Chapter 12, there are other parts of the body. 


[00:34:29] Gina: And we know your dad, like we did a year long certification with him and he never once like stood up on a chair and was like, follow me, I have the gifts. 


[00:34:39] No, when 


[00:34:39] Ben: you meet people who actually have the gifts, they're just that, they are people. 


[00:34:43] Gina: Yeah. 


[00:34:43] Ben: When you meet, I would say that one of the best way you can use your BS detector with the people who claim to have the gifts is, are they presenting themselves as special, unique? people. Are they presenting themselves as being on a pedestal? 


[00:34:56] Not that other people have put them on one, because my father certainly been put on the pedestal by a number of people over the years, including myself, which I've had to learn not to do. But there are people who will put themselves up. They will say, I am a prophet. Listen to me, worship me in effect, because I speak with the voice of God. 


[00:35:15] Therefore I am him. And I think that, yes, and that's what a lot of people who are in these kinds of movements are trying to do. They're trying to get people to look at them, to follow them, to essentially worship them. Now there, that's not the case for everybody. I do think there are some people who feel like they're getting this feeling or this thought. 


[00:35:33] And so they will say, oh, the Lord told me and yeah, that's very common. Like everybody does. Yeah, 


[00:35:39] Gina: it's funny because I had a pastor that was counseling me and I was like, well, the Lord told me that and she was like, okay, let's stop for a second. Are you hearing voices? She was a cessationist and I didn't know it at the time. 


[00:35:52] So it was actually a really entertaining conversation. And I explained like, no, it's more like discernment. And just like through prayer that I've come to this conclusion. And she was like, oh no, that makes perfect sense. But she was thinking that I was hearing the audible voice of the Lord. And it was a funny conversation. 


[00:36:10] Sorry. 


[00:36:11] Ben: No, it doesn't even need to be an audible voice for those of you who are wondering if you're seeking the gifts and you want the gift of prophecy, the gift of discernment, spiritual discernment. Like there's a story that my dad told me there was a time where he was in a church that wasn't his. He was just visiting this church for the first time and as he was a part of the congregation and this was still fairly early on in his walk with God told him. 


[00:36:32] Stand up and accuse the pastor of adultery. 


[00:36:35] Gina: I love this story. 


[00:36:37] Ben: And he's like, what? And that's what God told him. The pastor is guilty of adultery. Stand up and accuse him in front of the entire church. He's like, I can't do that. I'm, I'm a, I don't even belong to this congregation. I don't know this guy. I don't know any of these people. 


[00:36:52] That's ridiculous. That's crazy. But then, immediately after he said no, another person who is a member of the church who went up and he said just that, he said, okay, everyone, God has just told me that The pastor is guilty of adultery. He's been unfaithful to his wife, and the pastor was brought forward, and he's like, Yeah, actually I am, and it was a very powerful moment. 


[00:37:13] But my dad had said no, and as he was sitting there watching this unfold, the Lord told him, How much more powerful would it have been if you had been the one to stand up? And then this man backed you up. You didn't have enough faith to say yes. Granted, God knew that he wasn't going to do that. My dad considered this much more a teaching moment. 


[00:37:31] But that's the idea. He acted the way that any of us would in that situation. And so He asked for the gifts and he got them, but he was hesitant to use them at first. And I think that's the way it's going to be for all of us. And that's one of the things that you, if you're listening and you're seeking the gifts and you feel like you may be getting them, need to understand is that you're not going to be perfect and you're going to stumble and you're going to fall. 


[00:37:53] It's not going to be an easy road if you try to take on these gifts is what I'm saying. 


[00:37:58] Gina: No, and I want to point out too, because this is something that I learned in the last year. If you try to jump into things with your gifts, or in ministry, or in serving, or in leadership, any of those things, and it's not God's design for that thing that he's given you, you will pay. 


[00:38:18] Ben: So I feel like we've talked enough about this without making it its own episode. And I do feel like it deserves to be its own episode, which we should probably cover at some point. Okay. But going past that, Gina, you've added to our outline here, and you've talked a bit about tithing. So what exactly is the importance of tithing when you're a part of a church? 


[00:38:36] Gina: Oh, don't ask me. 


[00:38:38] Ben: Okay. Well, the 


[00:38:39] Gina: only reason I say that is because I have a really out there view of tithing. 


[00:38:43] Ben: Okay, well, go for it. 


[00:38:44] Gina: Well, traditionally, churches expect that if you would like to be a member of the church, And that's not to say that it's a club, it's just most churches identify membership with tithes, meaning that you've committed to this church, you believe in the vision of the church, you want to put your first 10 percent of your income towards the mission of the church, however the church sees fit to use it. 


[00:39:10] It's an act of trust with your church. It's also an act of obedience towards the Lord with your finances, saying that you're going to give Him the first 10 percent of anything that you make. Not the last 10%, the first 10%. And that's traditionally how it's taught. Am I right or am I wrong? Would you agree with that? 


[00:39:27] Cody: Yeah. 


[00:39:27] Gina: Okay. Cody and I have a really unique approach to tithe. So to me, my 10 percent goes to the Lord. It doesn't always go to my church. There are times where God prompts Cody and I to give specifically. And we do. There are ways that he and I have given that are just not normal, like not typical ways of giving. 


[00:39:50] And sometimes, sometimes our way of giving is not what the church would consider to be the standard tithe, but that's how we operate. 


[00:40:01] Cody: Yeah, I'll speak to that a little bit. Tithe to me is the first 10 percent as to the Lord, not to the church. I would argue with anybody who says otherwise, but as long as the Lord's calling you to give your tithe or your first 10 percent to a certain organization, By all means, listen to the Lord. 


[00:40:23] But if he tells you to give it all to a single mother that you see struggling to buy diapers at the register, that is a valid use of tithe, too. It is the Lord's. 


[00:40:33] Gina: Yeah, I think, well, do you want to weigh in before I move forward with some opinions? Sure. 


[00:40:39] Ben: I don't find anything wrong necessarily with what you guys are saying. 


[00:40:42] In the end, it does belong to the Lord. Now, I do think that It's important to say that churches run almost exclusively on tithes. And so if the entirety of the congregation were all to simultaneously go, you know what, we're going to give to single mothers, we'd rather not give to the church. That would be a noble endeavor, but in the end, the church would fall apart. 


[00:41:03] And I know that there are some people who choose not to give to their church during periods where they seriously have, like, vehement disagreements with, uh, the congregation, or the pastor, or there's some kind of church drama, or what have you. I don't know that's a good reason to not give to your church. 


[00:41:20] The question is, why are you staying with your church if that's the case? Now, again, that doesn't mean that you shouldn't follow what the Lord says. If the Lord's directing you to give somewhere else, you Absolutely do it. And if he's telling you to give to your church, absolutely do it. And if there's a period where he's telling you to give to a separate church for whatever reason, then absolutely you do it. 


[00:41:40] The point is that absolutely, I agree with you guys, the first 10 percent is the Lord's. So if he directs you somewhere else, then do that. I think as a default, If you don't have any real direction, if you don't feel the Lord pulling you in any particular place, then it should really go to the church. 


[00:41:56] Gina: Yeah. 


[00:41:57] Cody: Absolutely. 


[00:41:58] Gina: But, I want to talk about some promises that are made by churches when they ask for the time. 


[00:42:06] Cody: You mean the slot machine. tithe rule. 


[00:42:10] Gina: I want my vending machine, Jesus. 


[00:42:13] Cody: If you tithe, if you give 10%, you're going to be blessed this week. 


[00:42:19] Ben: Well, the Bible does say, test me in this and see if I don't open the floodgates of heaven. 


[00:42:25] There are individual verses, which are cherry picked. And there are people, we talked about this last time you guys brought up. I can't remember the chapter and verse from Jeremiah. Oh, 2911. Yeah, 


[00:42:34] Gina: 2911. 


[00:42:36] Ben: You're welcome. Thank you. Yeah, there's a chapter and verse in Jeremiah that you guys talked about where it's the basis of the prosperity gospel. 


[00:42:43] It's that God wants you to have more than you could ever use, more than you could ever want. And as with so many things, there is a kernel of truth to that. It is stated in Malachi, I think. I'm pretty sure that's where it says, test me in this and see if I don't open the flood gates where it talks about your tithe, your 10%. 


[00:43:00] The Bible does promise you will be provided for if you pay your tithe. Now this does not mean that you're going to become rich, that all you need to do to become an infinite billionaire is to give 10 percent of what you are making right now. 


[00:43:16] Gina: I have a dream of giving away a tractor trailer full of bicycles. 


[00:43:21] I need this to happen. 


[00:43:22] Ben: The tractor trailer itself. You're giving away the tractor trailer, not the, not the bicycles inside. It is the tractor trailer with the bicycles inside. 


[00:43:32] Cody: Take it or leave it. That's the deal. 


[00:43:34] Ben: Sorry. I'm not taking the trailer back. You got to take it with me 


[00:43:37] Cody: Well, we've been watching this show. 


[00:43:38] They'll make it into a house for you 


[00:43:41] Ben: Extreme makeover. Yeah trailer edition 


[00:43:45] Gina: Oh goodness so if you're church if you're new ben to a church and Suddenly this expectation is put on you like we need to keep the lights on and we want to bless You this ministry in Uganda, and we have a kid's ministry and we want to throw a vacation Bible school and we need your 10 percent and God's also going to bless you exceedingly and abundantly above anything you could ever hope and dream if you tithe, like, how do you feel having that thrown at you? 


[00:44:21] Ben: And it's definitely very overwhelming. And I think you're portraying it actually fairly well. I remember there was this one time back when. My brother Jack was still alive and he was still fluttering back and forth between Christianity and Judaism. I was bringing him to the church that I was going to. 


[00:44:36] And I believe there were about four separate times in the opening announcements for that church. They asked for money in one way or another, like they had four different programs that they had. And they were just saying, we need, we need you guys to give us money for this program. And for that program. 


[00:44:51] And we have so many high hopes for this and we're, we're, we're The hands and feet of Jesus. And I think that to be fair, I don't think they were being corrupt or anything. They were using that money genuinely, but there is a focus for a lot of churches in that there's. a great goal, a great vision for the future. 


[00:45:09] There's so many things that they can do. So many different people who have different needs. And it very much becomes a focus on money rather than a focus on the actions of the church. Cody, you and I, and Gina too, you've come out with us a few times. We do frequently go out into the community and we try to do things for people who don't have a whole lot of money. 


[00:45:28] And I've had the temptation at times just throw money at the problem and have it Solve itself. But ultimately the bigger thing for the church really is to be the hands and feet of Jesus. To go out and see what you can do with a modest budget and do it yourself rather than try to find someone else to do it and just throw the money at it. 


[00:45:45] And so often that eventually becomes what the church tries to do. Throw money at a problem. Mm-Hmm. . And once you do that, Christ stops being the focus and the money starts being the focus. So, no matter what, it is important that you give your tithe. And I think we're addressing two different issues here. 


[00:45:59] One, the church's focus on money. And two, what the actual point of your tithe is, whether or not you should be doing it. 


[00:46:06] Gina: And I think the third, issue would be your posture. Like, are you giving out of guilt? Are you giving because you think that it's going to somehow further your relationship with the Lord in terms of like forgiveness and salvation? 


[00:46:22] Or are you giving because you really believe that you're going to become extremely blessed because of this? Like, what's your motive? Because ultimately if you're not giving to the Lord without expectation. I would say your heart posture is probably not where it needs to be. And I think that's where a lot of people run into issues with the blessing and the promises and even with their own, like, salvation because they've come in with expectations that aren't really honorable. 


[00:46:53] And whether the church has honorable intentions for the money or not is irrelevant at that point because you've given with bad intentions. 


[00:47:00] Cody: Is your money tainted at that point? Is the church, is your church more willing to not steward the money well because of your poor heart posture? 


[00:47:12] Gina: Well, and does tithing excuse you from serving, or from evangelizing, or from being kind to people? 


[00:47:20] Like, is that your checkbox that's allowed you to then go off and do whatever you want? 


[00:47:26] Cody: No, not to tithe, but if you give 12%, I think it would excuse you. If you go above and beyond that extra 2%. You don't have to do anything else. You're you, you bought your ticket to heaven at that point. 


[00:47:39] Gina: Oh, well, maybe we've got to look at the budget. 


[00:47:42] I 


[00:47:44] Ben: don't have the time. So I'll give the two that's what it says in the Bible. You don't have time. Give the extra 2%. There you go. 


[00:47:50] Gina: Oh my goodness. I think, I don't know, I think we, we've covered it. Yeah, 


[00:47:53] Ben: I briefly touched on this earlier, is like, we all have gone out into the community, there's the temptation to throw money at the problem. 


[00:48:00] Ultimately, that's not what Christ is asking us to do. He's asking us to be His hands and His feet. When 


[00:48:05] Cody: did you ever see Christ 


[00:48:06] Ben: throw money? 


[00:48:07] Gina: Oh, He flipped the tables and the money went flying. 


[00:48:10] Cody: Does 


[00:48:10] Ben: that 


[00:48:10] Cody: count? Uh, no. 


[00:48:12] Ben: And you'll remember there was a point. Where Jesus is sitting and dining with his disciples and there's a woman who comes in and she has this expensive perfume and she breaks it and she pours it all over Jesus feet and she's crying on his feet and wiping up the tears with her hair and kissing his feet. 


[00:48:28] Gina: And Judas is like, what? 


[00:48:29] Ben: Yeah, and Judas is like, well, you could have totally sold that and used that money and given it to the poor. And Jesus is like, what? No, that's stupid. She's done a beautiful thing. Don't insult her for it. Like she was a 


[00:48:46] Cody: Get behind me, Satan! That was Peter, not Judas. 


[00:48:50] Ben: No, it was definitely Judas. 


[00:48:52] Gina: If the perfume was oil of nard, I have some if you would like. 


[00:48:55] Ben: I've, I've always wanted to know what nard smells like. It usually smells amazing. It would be good to know. But yeah, Technically, Judas was right, though the Bible also stresses the point that he actually was just hoping to help himself to the purse. 


[00:49:09] And I think this kind of goes to what you're talking about, Gina, with the heart posture. Yes, technically the words he's saying weren't wrong. Technically, you could have sold it and given the money to the poor, but one, Judas's heart posture wasn't correct to begin with, and thus the money probably wouldn't have gone to the right place anyway. 


[00:49:27] Well, there was a better use for that money anyway, which was exactly what she used it for. Like, she used it to show love to the creator of the universe. I don't think there's any greater use for money than that. And that's ultimately what we're doing with our service to begin with. We're showing love to Christ. 


[00:49:43] And we're doing it through our acts of service to other people. 


[00:49:46] Cody: Yeah, and there's lots of stories like that in the Bible. There's the lady who brought the small tithe into the church, but that was all she had. And 


[00:49:55] Gina: the widow's alms or widow's mites. That's what they're called. Widow mites. 


[00:49:59] Cody: Something. Yeah. 


[00:50:00] Ben: It was practically nothing, but real quick, before we move on, I think it's important to go back on something that, that we'd mentioned briefly. 


[00:50:10] There is the verse that says, test me in this. and see if I don't open the floodgates of heaven. I believe that's the way the verse goes. This is one of the few times where the Bible is telling you to test God in something. And what I'm not suggesting that you go out and say, well, I'm going to get my 10%, but if I don't get anything back, I swear this is the last time I'm doing it. 


[00:50:32] No, it does mean that going into this whole tithing thing, if you're new to the church, you're probably thinking, okay. Money is tight right now. And with the times that we're in right now, yes, obviously money is tight for everybody. And if you're doing your best to dot every I and cross every T and you're doing your best with a budget that you have, and you're trying to make sure you don't have any excess anywhere. 


[00:50:56] The idea of sacrificing 10 percent of it each and every week to the church, and presumably you're not getting anything back for it. Like that may seem to be a tough pill to swallow. And the fact that God is asking you to do this may seem really hard. What God is saying is I understand that I understand. 


[00:51:14] It's difficult Test me in this. I promise you I will provide and I've heard so many stories about people who did approach Giving in the church with that feeling with that heart posture. It's not that you're going to be angry or indignant It's that you're curious and you're suffering and you're thinking. 


[00:51:32] Okay. I don't know if this is gonna work. I'm trusting you in this You And I'm giving you the 10%. 


[00:51:38] Gina: And the provision that he can give is not even always financial, like you're going to see things change. Like, Cody and I started tithing at our church when we moved to Florida, and our lives started to change. 


[00:51:57] And it wasn't because of the church, and it wasn't because of the pastors, and it wasn't because of the people. There were just shifts that God has made, like, one degree shifts every so often that have totally changed the outcome of our lives. And they have gradually increased provision financially for us. 


[00:52:18] Because when we started tithing, we couldn't really afford to tithe, but God doesn't promise that he's going to repay you in dollars. And if your expectation is, well, I'm going to give this amount and if I don't get it back, you know, there's going to be an issue. It's funny. We have a friend that was going through a really hard time and their family tithed and it was an amount that they could not afford, but it was the full 10%. 


[00:52:44] And within a week, they literally down to the last cent had it all back. Because somebody tipped generously so God is funny and he will sometimes surprise you but that's not the standard case And I don't think like you you can't go in being like, oh, well, I'm gonna give it but I really need to see this back 


[00:53:05] Ben: Yeah, it's not about getting the money back what it is. 


[00:53:09] God is promising you that he is going to make it worth it And that isn't why you tithe. But he's saying, you will see that I will do it. 


[00:53:17] Gina: He knows that we struggle with money. 


[00:53:18] Ben: Yeah. 


[00:53:19] Gina: That's why he tells us we can't love money and him. 


[00:53:22] Cody: Lots of the Bible is about the relationship of us and money. It's harder for a rich man to go to heaven than it is for, what was it, the camel to pass through the eye of the needle? 


[00:53:34] Eye of the needle, yeah. And that has a lot of rabbit hole theological implications to it, but there's a point to that and I think tithing is, again, going back to the heart posture of it and putting your reliance on God and something that in American culture anyway, everybody tries to handle themselves. 


[00:53:57] Most of America fails because the debt load of the average American is like 40, 000, which is crazy. And it's just poor management, and it's not to say that 


[00:54:12] Gina: It's not condemning. 


[00:54:13] Cody: Yeah, it's not condemning, but it is an area that everybody struggles to Because it is our livelihood, it's our way of life will change potentially. 


[00:54:27] Our, we might not be able to buy that Frappuccino on Tuesday and Wednesday now, if we give the tithes. That's 


[00:54:34] Gina: what you're saying we do on Tuesdays and Wednesdays. 


[00:54:37] Ben: Well, money is tied to so many different things in our lives. It's tied to other people's perceptions of us. It's tied to our well being. In so many ways, in our own personal health, in our diet, in our exercise, to some extent, if you're paying for gym memberships and whatnot, it's tied to our ability to move around because you probably have a car payment. 


[00:54:58] You probably have insurance on your car. You probably have fuel that you need to pay for that car. Unless you're electric, even then you have your electric bill. You have your comfort. It's tied to because AC is something that was invented and is a wonderful invention, but doesn't happen naturally. And so you got to pay money for that. 


[00:55:16] And you pay money for your lights and you pay money for all sorts of comforts, things that you may not necessarily need, but we all agree are things that make our life better. And so to release our hold on that is in essence, releasing our hold on our lives. 


[00:55:33] Gina: Only the first 10%. 


[00:55:34] Ben: Yes, but the idea is that you're admitting to God, Look, you have authority over all of this, and you're asking me for 10. 


[00:55:41] You may ask me for more. And that's the reality. God may ask you for more. And I think that's something that everybody knows when they start tithing. It's like, okay, I have given you nothing up to this point. You're asking me for 10. Okay, I'll give you the 10, but what happens if you ask me for more? And the answer is you have to give it. 


[00:55:57] And that's a tough pill to swallow, I'll admit. That's a very tough pill to swallow. That's a tough pill I had to swallow more than once. I was a broke college student once, and I was paying 10 percent off of basically nothing. But that was that nothing I had to live on. You have to trust God really hard when you're suddenly sacrificing something that is very tangible. 


[00:56:16] Like, it's one thing to just say, Yes, I trust God with my life. It's another thing entirely to trust Him with your finances, which is your actual life. 


[00:56:24] Gina: Thank you so much for taking the time to listen to our podcast today. If you liked what you heard, please feel free to subscribe and share and leave a positive review. 


[00:56:34] And if you would like to connect with us on social media, you can do so on Instagram and Facebook at the Logic of God. You can also send us an email at dot the Logic of god@gmail.com. Thanks again for listening. We hope you have a great day.

How to Find A Church Part 2

[00:00:00] Cody: Hi, thank you for tuning in to the Logic of God podcast. I'm Cody. 


[00:00:14] Gina: I'm Gina. 


[00:00:15] Cody: And I'm Ben. If you're returning, thank you for coming back and if you are a new guest, welcome. 


[00:00:30] Ben: Now there is the question, if you're going to a church and you start going there and you don't really know much about, The denomination's going into it, but you find that there is a doctrine that you don't appreciate, such as there are a lot of Baptists, I'd say a significant portion of Baptists, who teach that women should not be preaching. 


[00:00:46] If you find that you even vehemently disagree about specific doctrinal points, Should you still go to that church? 


[00:00:53] Gina: It depends on what you would consider a deal breaker, I think. One of the biggest arguments among Christians, and I think it's idiotic, is like different opinions on what scripture is saying about certain things. 


[00:01:07] And so you'll have certain churches that are like, we only read one kind, one version of the Bible. And you'll have churches that are like, we don't let women teach. And then you have churches that have women teaching and on the elder board. It's all about personal conviction. We can't really convince or, or tell you what to believe or what your opinion should be. 


[00:01:26] And if you're taking what we say at face value and not doing your own research and prayer, it's and taking time to figure out what your convictions really are about what your church should look like. It's just all about personal conviction and what truth you believe is in scripture, and that's what really divides the different denominations. 


[00:01:44] It's just a difference of opinion. On the interpretation of scripture. 


[00:01:48] Ben: I think there are certain points where we have significant disagreement for a reason. Yeah. And there are individual doctrines, and Cody and I have talked about this a lot off air, and Eugenia has been involved in those conversations too, to an extent, where there are important things to talk about. 


[00:02:04] There are important things for the church to have a united voice. There's a reason that when we started this podcast, we fixated on the five core assumptions and the vast majority of Christian churches. In fact, literally all of them by definition have to agree on those points. If you go to a church and they claim to be Christian, and there are individual sects, That claim to be Christian that aren't and we'll get to that in a little bit But let's say that you go to a Mormon Church or you go to a Jehovah's Witness Church at that point You're not actually attending a Christian Church and that is because there is a disagreement on one of those five core principles And so as long as you're going to a church that agrees With all of those five core principles, those five core assumptions of Christianity, you're going to find that you're edified more often than not. 


[00:02:51] Even when you come to the points where maybe the church is a Calvinist church, or maybe the church is very strict about not letting women teach in a pastoral position or a higher level of leadership. Even in those instances. And I do have my disagreements with a lot of churches who do that. You can still find things that you will be edified with. 


[00:03:10] And even in those churches, most times you'll find that women are actually still in some form of leadership, just not in a pastoral one. I've actually gone to a few different Baptist churches in my life. I think three, and I believe in all of them, it was taught that women should not be involved specifically at the highest levels of leadership, but you still found that every time there was an event, women were running it. 


[00:03:31] And every single time there was a children's ministry, because all churches need to have a children's ministry. The women were running it. So even in those individual churches, it's not as if women are treated as second class citizens or as if they don't exist. It's that there are people who believe the Bible is saying something specific and so they're trying to adhere to what the Bible is saying. 


[00:03:49] Now sometimes you will find people who are trying to just abuse power and find reasons from the Bible to do it. I don't think that's the majority of people, but I couldn't say that for certain. Maybe it is. I don't know. The point is that if you go to a church and you find that you are being edified, but there are some points that you're going to disagree on, guess what? 


[00:04:05] You should be disagreeing with us on a number of points too. I would hope that you would continue to listen to the podcast and have it edify you in some way. 


[00:04:11] Gina: Well, hold on. If we're giving up on something that offends us, that can also make us grow, which is a majority of life experiences, then we're just giving into being worldly, which is the antithesis of what Jesus has called us to. 


[00:04:26] You can't call yourself a Christian and then get your feelings hurt because you have a difference of opinion and run away. That's not the way that we're designed. Go ahead. Sorry. 


[00:04:35] Cody: If you're not in a position where your beliefs are challenged, then I would reconsider the position that you're in. If you don't have to think and reaffirm your beliefs as a Christian and the different dogmas, the man made beliefs that you come up with, then You're not in a very good position. 


[00:04:58] Yeah, if you're 


[00:04:58] Gina: comfortable. Every 


[00:04:59] Cody: time you go to scripture, you should try to leave your presuppositions out of the window. Even if they're reaffirmed while you're reading it and you pick out, Oh, this was a checkbox for Calvinism, okay. That's great, but that shouldn't be your intention, is to prove yourself right while you're in a church or looking for a church. 


[00:05:22] If you're not challenging your way of thinking, then you're not going to grow. 


[00:05:26] Gina: One of my favorite things to pray is that God will absolutely destroy my mental image of Him regularly. Because I want his truest form, and if I allow myself to be influenced by, like, the prosperity gospel or certain toxic Christian things that have been taught, or even what movies teach, we end up with this, like, cartoon in our head instead of what's reality. 


[00:05:52] And I think praying to have that broken down as often as you can is really important. And I've learned a lot more about God through the trials that he's given me because of that than I ever would have if I had just allowed myself to have cartoon Jesus in my head. 


[00:06:07] Ben: Yeah, so is there a healthy amount of disagreement, you would say, with the church that you're going to? 


[00:06:13] Like, is there a healthy level amount of disagreement? 


[00:06:15] Cody: It depends on how the disagreement presents itself. If it's causing you to, you know, cross your arms, and everything when you go to church is about proving them wrong, and you scour your Bible about, this is why I don't believe this, and this is why I don't believe this, then that's when it becomes a problem. 


[00:06:35] There's a, there's a lot of, you know, pastors and people that I listen to that don't have the same opinions of doctrine that I do, but I'm still immensely edified by what they're saying, because one, it challenges what the viewpoint I have, and not every single point that they're going to make is going to follow that doctrine or sprout from that doctrine that we disagree with. 


[00:07:00] Disagreement is healthy. If we all agreed on everything, then we would be gods ourselves. So 


[00:07:07] Gina: Some of the best conversations that we've had are over sermons we've disagreed with, and we haven't stopped going to that church. So, I think there's lessons even in the moments where we're uncomfortable or angry because of what we've seen or heard. 


[00:07:20] Ben: Yeah, I think the most powerful question that you can be asked when you're analyzing what you believe is why? Why is it that you believe what you do? Do you believe in Calvinism? If so, why? Okay, do you believe that we have free will? Okay, if so, why? Do you believe that women should be in leadership? If yes, then why? 


[00:07:38] If you say no, then why? The whole point is that you are going to learn a ton if you have to come up with the answer to these questions. And a lot of people want just the surface level Immediate response of saying the Bible says this or they have a canned scripture that they've been told means something But then you come up to somebody who also Has a measure of competence and then they come with a reply to that reply because they've heard of it Then you go I never actually thought about this more than the surface level And so you start diving deeper and deeper. 


[00:08:09] And it's what you were talking about before, Cody. Eventually you do have to check what you're feeling at the door. You do have to say, okay, I don't, I need to leave behind my own preconception. Or else you're just going to retreat into yourself. And you're not going to learn anything. And that by itself, just learning the ability to say, okay, I could be wrong, and I want to know if I am. 


[00:08:27] That's worth the price of admission on its own. That's worth being in a place where you feel uncomfortable and you're being challenged in the things that you believe. So I think that there is such a thing as a healthy amount of disagreement with your church, and I do agree there is a point where it is too much. 


[00:08:41] If you are legitimately sitting there every single Sunday, and you hate every word coming out of the pastor's mouth, then no, you shouldn't be there. 


[00:08:49] Gina: I think too, if you're able to identify the difference between the Holy Spirit or God telling you to leave a church versus your feelings, like your emotions are going to lead you astray. 


[00:09:02] And even if you're correct that you should leave, I think you need to be very prayerful, and you need to avoid offensive things to God, like gossip and stirring up chaos and drama in people in your church, and trying to create division. I think with or without your feelings, you do owe people a certain level of respect and dignity, and if you're using your emotions to justify bad behavior or sinful behavior, then you're not doing what God would want you to. 


[00:09:34] And you just have to make those decisions with a lot of prayer and a lot of patience and grace, because more than likely you're probably feeling angry because of one of the reasons we talked about earlier in this podcast. It's either somebody let you down in the church and you need to forgive them and talk to them, or there's something triggering you in your own life, whether it's conviction about your own sinful behavior or pride. 


[00:09:59] or maybe even like a trauma in your past that you don't have freedom from. And so if you're feeling triggered or angry or like you hate a church, I want you to stop and reconsider because there's probably a really good explanation why you're feeling like that. And you should probably face it and put it into the light rather than letting it fester and create a reason for you to distance yourself from church and then from God. 


[00:10:23] Cody: Definitely. And we, I'll highlight the South, we as an American culture, an American Christian, we tend to gravitate towards stuff that affirms our beliefs. If you're not being challenged in a church, then you're probably not at the right church, first off. But a picture that the. modern American Southern church like Jesus is this white republican gun toting Badass that they have this mental image of that and it conforms exactly to who they are and they don't have to change at all That's who jesus is and that's who I am 


[00:11:07] Gina: the cartoon character in my head. 


[00:11:09] Yeah 


[00:11:10] Cody: which is not correct. 


[00:11:12] Gina: No. And 


[00:11:13] Cody: if you're not challenging your view, or if you are comfortable, you're not doing it right. 


[00:11:19] Gina: So pray before you leave. And like, face why you want to leave. Don't burn a bridge on your way out. 


[00:11:25] Cody: And that's one thing I hate with seeing these giant scandals, where these pastors fall. 


[00:11:32] Yeah, they screw up and they screw up royally, but they screw up and half the church leaves. 


[00:11:38] Gina: Statistically speaking, if you look at the statistics of how many men abuse their wives and how many women are addicted to porn and whatever other sins you want to name, like that pastors have fallen for, like the church is still full of those people. 


[00:11:53] The people who are mad are just as guilty. What we fail to acknowledge is that these pastors are still people and they're not any more holy or special than we are. The only difference is that they pursued vocational ministry instead of secular. 


[00:12:06] Ben: They are also called to a higher standard. 


[00:12:09] Gina: Of course they are, but we, Cody and I know, like I've worked in ministry, we've been in ministry, he's been in ministry his whole life. 


[00:12:16] We've seen pastors come and go. We've seen pastors get called up by people, not by God, and they do it because they like pleasing people, and they're not actually called, and the people that We've seen lead churches. A lot of the time they don't have the gifts that you would expect a pastor to have. And that's what I'm referring to. 


[00:12:35] Of course they should be held to a higher standard and they should be doing things differently than your average person, but that's not been what I've seen. 


[00:12:43] Cody: Yeah, I think the average Christian fails the that Christian like we should be able to call them out and you know Reprimand them how the Bible tells us to 


[00:12:55] Gina: and I'm not condoning that behavior. 


[00:12:56] I'm not saying You know Commit a crime or do something wrong and stay in this position of power. No, absolutely not. I'm just saying don't use that as your excuse to quit 


[00:13:08] Ben: the trouble. I agree with you 100%. That should not be the reason that you fell in love with Christ in the first place. But I personally known people involved in the church who, when they were younger, like there would be, you know, youth pastors who would be involved with them and would be very helpful and very kind, and they would feel very close to these pastors and then. 


[00:13:27] There was one instance in particular. There was a pastor named Paul who, he cheated on his wife, and he completely destroyed his relationship and continued on in this relationship with the other woman. He didn't repent. He just went off and did his own thing. For adults, I do understand that's not an excuse, but for children where you're still learning the foundation, you don't have that firm foundation on which you build your life. 


[00:13:49] That actually is something I do understand. And it's one of the reasons why pastors are held to such a high standard to begin with. It's because there are people coming into this who don't have a foundation. They know next to nothing, or they're children, and they're innocent. And when you fall, you are damaging their innocence. 


[00:14:08] And the way that they view the world from that point onward is going to be colored by what you did. 


[00:14:13] Gina: Yeah, it's like abandonment. 


[00:14:15] Ben: Yeah, in so many ways. They did feel genuinely abandoned. And they had friends who were related to this guy who felt abandoned. And it's hard not to feel like somehow God is responsible, or God even isn't there. 


[00:14:28] Because God didn't stop that. And this guy claimed that purity was good, but he wasn't pure. So I agree, if your pastor falls away, and sadly there are a lot of people in leadership who don't finish well. There are more examples than I would like to list. And we could do entire serieses on people who finish very poorly. 


[00:14:49] Their failure should not cause you to fall away from the faith, but they are held to a higher degree of accountability for a very good reason. And if you plan on going into leadership, you do need to understand that is what comes with the territory. 


[00:15:05] Gina: And that's how people see you. Like it's easy. I've talked to so many pastors and they're like, Oh, that's no, they don't do that. 


[00:15:12] Let's be real and honest for a second, because you can't take a bite of food, take 10 steps in the church lobby, sit in a chair, quietly go to the bathroom, like anything you can't without having at least three people intercept you. And it doesn't matter if you just make the coffee. Or if you're a pastor, people put you on this pedestal and when you let them down, no matter how small, it's their biggest excuse for quitting. 


[00:15:39] And it's just, they look at you with stars in their eyes. And I don't know why I think it's cause maybe you're their last resort or something, but it's the level of responsibility is so high and you have to be. So transparent. I am not perfect. I am happy to share with you. I'm happy to counsel you. I'm happy to pray with you. 


[00:16:01] But please know, I am not perfect. I am not holier than you. And your access to God is the same as mine. If you don't lead with that, you're going to disappoint people every single time. And nobody leads with that. 


[00:16:15] Ben: Imagine for a second that you were going to go to another country, and it's a country you don't speak the language of at all. 


[00:16:21] And you happen to know someone, and they speak this language fluently along with yours, and they can be your translator. And as you are learning the language, they can help you along. During that time period where you don't know anything, they are absolutely indispensable. And I think in a lot of ways, that's the way people in the church view their pastors. 


[00:16:39] And that would be the healthiest way to view it. It's not that they have something that you can't get. Just like with the language, it's something you can learn. No matter how much you might be struggling in the moment, eventually you will get it. It just takes time. The difference there, though, is that if your translator turns out to be a bit of a jerk and isn't perfect, it doesn't ruin the lesson. 


[00:16:59] Like, you can still learn the language from them or learn 


[00:17:01] Gina: more from getting a second and a third and a fourth and a fifth and a tenth teacher than you would from having the same one your whole life. 


[00:17:09] Ben: But with pastors, it's different because we're not simply talking about a language. We're talking about eternity. 


[00:17:15] We're talking about eternal principles that will define your life. And it's tough because when those people are shepherding you towards those eternal principles and it turns out they don't follow them. You start to question. Okay, are these principles even real? If the person teaching me didn't care, why should I? 


[00:17:32] Now, no matter what, if what they taught you This is the thing that I talk about with Ravi Zacharias. Ravi was probably one of the best orators in terms of Christian apologetics that I've heard. He's definitely one of the best, at the very least. And he talked about the Bible all over the earth. And then he fell from grace really hard after he died, oddly enough. 


[00:17:53] They managed to keep a lot of stuff hidden until he died, and then it came out that he was doing a lot of very inappropriate and evil things. And that hit me very hard. I was already a Christian, and I didn't fall away from faith. I think everybody, it hit us very hard. I know Mike Winger, I saw an episode that he did, where he was throwing away his marriage council books that Ravi had written, because he was like, I can't in good conscience teach this stuff if the guy who wrote it wasn't following it. 


[00:18:16] Gina: Cody went through a several week, like, I don't know, almost like being frozen. 


[00:18:21] Cody: Not like frozen, I wouldn't I mean, it 


[00:18:23] Gina: was my perception. It was like, you didn't know what to do. 


[00:18:27] Cody: Yeah. It's like, how do you like, cause you know, here's the guy, you know, I listened to his sermons every day for probably three or four years. 


[00:18:34] So a lot of my foundation of what I learned biblically as an apologist 


[00:18:40] Gina: was 


[00:18:40] Cody: from this man. And then you find out that this guy is okay. So was he giving me good information? Was he giving me bad information? And that's where you have to. Any teacher you get up with, and we say it time and time again, test it with scripture. 


[00:18:57] Gina: Don't take anybody's word. 


[00:18:58] Cody: Come to your own conclusion about what's being said, not taking everybody's word for it. 


[00:19:04] Ben: And there may be some of you listening who think, okay, these guys, They're solid people. I can listen to Cody and Gina and Ben, and I can have them be the light that guides me to No. We're talking to one another, and we're talking to you, and we're having discussions about the Bible and about these eternal ideas. 


[00:19:22] We're not right about everything. We're not perfect people. And if you try to build your life around us, rather than what we're saying, eventually you're going to find something about us. 


[00:19:31] Gina: That's wildly disappointing. Yes, 


[00:19:33] Ben: you're going to be disappointed when you meet me and you find out I'm actually a 400 pound Samoan man and my voice doesn't match my body at all. 


[00:19:41] Which voice? Any number of them. 


[00:19:45] Gina: Cody and I don't eat organic. We don't recycle. 


[00:19:48] Ben: I'm not vegan. How could you? I know. There are tons of things that if you got to know us, as people you would probably be fine with, but as people who instruct in the Bible, if that's what you consider this to be, you'd probably be let down. 


[00:20:01] And I understand that. The appeal that I think we're trying to make here is that Christ is a person, and you get to know him. And we can help you with some things that you may struggle with. Individual aspects about who Christ is, and about the history of the church, and about the doctrines of the church. 


[00:20:17] But in the end, Christ is still a person. You can know him. So don't let our failures as people color your perception of Christ because he is his own person. We're not him 


[00:20:27] Gina: one thing that like you were talking earlier about being able to have this sense of where God is present or where God is not present Like one thing that I've been able to sense is like the Holy Spirit's presence and I've described that before is the pink sparkly cloud And there have been environments that I've been in where people have been so shut off to the possibility of the Spirit moving or God speaking to them that this like sparkly cloud can't come down. 


[00:21:00] And so it's not that he's not present, it's that we're working against him for some reason. And so when I think about like churches and disagreements or having problems within the church. Or division within the church. I think that you have to remember when you're going into these places, that it can be turned around. 


[00:21:22] And I think we should take a second to talk about church culture. Because that's one thing, I don't know that really every single church could even possibly be the same. And like, we go to a church that has a ton of campuses, and no two campuses are the same. So, when you think about church culture, we are also not only attending church, but we're stewards of the culture of our church. 


[00:21:46] And so, if you're having, like, trouble within that culture, I think that it's really important that you remember that it's It's up to you to defend that and to develop that. And if there's something that you want to see in your church that you're not seeing, it's really not fair to give up just because it's not there when you could have done the work to do it, or you could have brought it up. 


[00:22:09] They're not, church leadership is not there. 


[00:22:14] Cody: Something about being in a community of people, there's probably somebody that you're sitting next to that feels exactly the same way that you do. And if you're not going to step up and make that change, and they're not going to step up and make that change, how do you expect that to happen? 


[00:22:31] You have to be the change that you want. If the church you're going to is not hitting the mark somewhere It doesn't mean that you need to leave that church. Maybe you need to get in a serious discussion with leadership at that church to see where you can fill that void that you're feeling and fill that for other people in your life, like in the church. 


[00:22:54] So be the change that you want to see is something that I think is very important. 


[00:23:00] Gina: Any thoughts? 


[00:23:00] Cody: No, I agree. 


[00:23:01] Gina: Really? 


[00:23:02] Cody: Yeah. What? 


[00:23:04] Ben: There's no qualifiers. I agree. 


[00:23:06] Gina: You 


[00:23:06] Ben: made good points. Concur. So you concur? Why didn't I concur? 


[00:23:12] Gina: Do we need to talk about cults? 


[00:23:14] Cody: How could you put, cause I do think if you get in a church where they absolutely force you to believe a certain way, I think that's a very dangerous situation to be in. 


[00:23:24] Can you 


[00:23:24] Gina: name any red flags for that type of where you say you're a church, but you're not necessary. You're more like a cult. 


[00:23:32] Ben: One of the warning signs though, it's not a defining thing. One of the warning signs is when the pastor constantly calls you every single service to repeat something. And it's like a mantra, it's the same thing each time. 


[00:23:47] If it's a non biblical thing, or it borders on the non biblical, then absolutely you're in a cult. Like, you've just crossed the line into a kind of cultish space. And it's because they're trying to get you to externalize something and then internalize something that you normally wouldn't agree with, but because you're surrounded by a bunch of people all saying the same thing, you're more and more likely to believe it. 


[00:24:08] Cody: Yeah, and if, I don't know, if there's the core assumptions as a Christian, which I think you have to believe to call yourself Christian, but outside of that, if they're not going to let you into their little club or they are very hostile towards you, if you don't adhere to all of their specific traditions or beliefs, that would throw up a red flag for me too. 


[00:24:33] If there's no room for any kind of disagreement or questioning. Or if the questioning is met with because I said so type of mentality, I, I think that is a red flag. 


[00:24:43] Ben: It is tough because, I, I agree with you. I do also think that there are points where a church wants to be a place where there are like minded people. 


[00:24:54] And I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with the church going, Okay, these are our core principles, aside from the core principles of Christianity. We're a Calvinist church. We're predeterminist. We're, we're very into the security of the believer. We have all of these different doctrines. If you don't believe in these, then please don't come here. 


[00:25:12] Cody: Yeah. 


[00:25:13] Ben: I can understand that. I would disagree with it. But I do also think that there is value in unity. where a church can provide a united front in tackling these individual subjects. Again, I don't think it's the healthy way to go about it, but I would still consider them to be Christian. And I have known of some churches where it very much had that atmosphere, that culture. 


[00:25:34] And even if you disagreed, they would allow people who didn't necessarily agree, but they were going to like, Make sure you knew that you were the outlier there. 


[00:25:43] Cody: I don't disagree with that. I guess what more, more what I'm saying is more tradition based that is not biblically founded. If you go into a service and everybody has to wash their big toes. 


[00:25:56] Like you're shunned if you don't do that's a red flag and again, they lead that there that's their worship center And if that's what everybody wants to do there, you're gonna have to get over that but that's probably not the place for you 


[00:26:09] Ben: Mm hmm. I think a good example of this actually would be The Jehovah witness practice of not rising for the national anthem, not doing the pledge of allegiance, not celebrating birthdays and not celebrating holidays. 


[00:26:22] Like that's one of those things where they will be very angry with you if you try to do any of that. I believe the reason they don't. Is because they consider it a form of idolatry, but just no celebrations whatsoever. 


[00:26:32] Cody: I'm not familiar enough with JW to, to comment. 


[00:26:36] Ben: There's a, so I'm, I mentioned those two before. 


[00:26:39] Mormonism and Jehovah's Witnesses. There's a reason that we don't consider them to be Christians, even though a lot of people do lump them into Christianity because. Christ is a figure in both of those religions, but they do disagree with one of the five core principles. So I guess it's more than just that. 


[00:26:57] They do try to bring in a lot of people. Like there are a lot of Jehovah's witnesses that come to my 


[00:27:01] Gina: door. Yes, they, 


[00:27:02] Ben: they've come to my door frequently. They're very nice people, but you can tell with the veiled language that they use, they are leaving things out when they're talking to you. Like they talk to you about Christ as being something that You can have hope in, but what they don't tell you is that they don't actually believe that Jesus Christ is Christ. 


[00:27:19] Yeah. They don't believe that he, they don't believe he died on a cross. They believe he died on a pole. Uh, they believe he's the Archangel Michael. And they believe that he is coming back at the end of the world to judge everyone. But, the thing is, that's almost the same kind of distinction that the Muslims have with Christianity. 


[00:27:35] Aside from also just the Quran generally and a lot of weird things we've talked about. I don't think we need to go back into the whole breastfeeding, uh, Man 10 times to make him your surrogate son. But we just 


[00:27:43] Cody: did. I know, we don't 


[00:27:44] Ben: need to go back into it. I did because it's funny. But you find that there are a lot of people who will try to lay claim to Christianity in some way. 


[00:27:53] When you read the Quran, that's something that Muhammad tried to do. He said that the people of the book, meaning Jews and Christians, knew about him, and their book affirmed him. And you just go to the book and you read it, and you'll find that it's true. And Joseph Smith did much the same kind of thing, except his thing was that he had a hat, and he had a magic looking glass, and he could look into this hat and he could read the hieroglyphics. 


[00:28:15] The Egyptian hieroglyphics, and then he would interpret that, and through that you get the writings like, I believe the Pearl of Great Price is one of them. But it's, it, you see a lot of commonalities between these different offshoots of Christianity. And yes, Islam is actually an offshoot of Christianity. 


[00:28:30] And they are very similar in their approach, they're very similar in the results. Because the people who started them ended up with a lot of wives and a lot of money. Muhammad, a lot of wives, a lot of money. Joseph Smith, a lot of wives, a lot of money. I don't know about Jehovah's Witnesses, I don't know if that comes into play as much, but Yeah, the point is, is that they will try to convince you a lot of the time that they have the same measure of commonality with you as another denomination. 


[00:28:56] And when you start getting into it, you'll see very quickly that there are dramatic jumps in logic that they take. And there are specific things they will ask you to do, and they will not tolerate you disagreeing with them. And they will expect you to follow along, blindly. 


[00:29:13] Gina: What about churches that give their staff or certain people special titles like, Prophet and brother and things like that like the NAR movement. 


[00:29:24] Cody: So that's generally that's a like a sub Denomination of Pentecostal most the time the NAR movement is a belief in the fivefold ministry where there are still active apostles, prophets, like you read in the Old Testament and the New Testament, like the prophet Isaiah, and there's still active people speaking on behalf of God himself as God. 


[00:29:51] And they usually claim that title as they're speaking as God to the congregation, which is not a good position to be in. I don't know. I can't really speak to a lot of like the ins and outs of those beliefs. I know they believe that the word of God is still active, similar to Catholicism. Where the continuation of scripture is still prevalent today and that anything that these people with the title prophet say, you have to do basically no questions asked. 


[00:30:22] And even if they're wrong, they, they don't get removed of that title, but they're still a prophet and they can be wrong, but that's a whole nother. 


[00:30:31] Gina: But that would be a red flag, right? 


[00:30:34] Cody: Uh, to me, yes, anybody who is claiming to be an apostle or a prophet in today's modern age is a wolf in sheep's clothing. 


[00:30:43] Ben: Yeah, I agree with you 100%. I will say that there are people who have the gift of prophecy, like this is something that is outlined in the New Testament. There are probably some cessationists. And for those of you who don't know, cessationist means that the gifts of the Holy Spirit stopped at some point when the last of the apostles died. 


[00:30:59] So like Paul died off and Peter died off. At some point in their life. In the first and maybe early second century A. D., that's when all the gifts of the Spirit stopped. But it's pretty clear in the Bible that there are gifts of the Spirit. One of these gifts is prophecy, and the gift of prophecy is to be able to receive word from God and speak it. 


[00:31:16] And that word can be about the future, it can be about the present, it can be about the past. It could be about any number of things. The Bible makes it very clear that is something available to all of us. In the past, like in the Old Testament, there were individual people labeled as prophets and it was a very rare gift that occasionally God would select a person and there would seemly be no rhyme or reason to why an individual person would be selected. 


[00:31:39] And that person would be given revelations from God, more often than not they would be horribly persecuted, sometimes killed, sometimes thrown into a well. Bad things happened to them. These days, though. It's different. There's not a prophet per generation, essentially, that's giving the word of the Lord. 


[00:31:56] These days, the veil is torn. The separation between God and man no longer exists. And so there are people who have the gift of prophecy. That gift can also be yours. There may be a reason why you don't have it. There may be a reason why God isn't talking to you specifically or regularly. And we've talked about that a long time ago. 


[00:32:14] There are ways you can, you can parcel that out. There are ways you can try to approach God in fear and trembling and try to see what what stands between you and him But the point is that when there are people coming forward like this and claiming to be Prophets they're trying to set themselves up as people like Elijah 


[00:32:33] Gina: Yes, 


[00:32:33] Cody: and their message is never what? 


[00:32:36] If you look at all of the major and minor prophets in the Old Testament, 99 percent of the time it was a direct correction of what was happening at that point in time. That is not what You're saying 


[00:32:49] Gina: a lot of things. 


[00:32:50] Cody: It's all about, like, prosperity. And you have Jeremiah talking about the prosperity of the church or the Israel at that time being prosperous if they turn back to God, right? 


[00:33:03] That's not where this prosperity comes in. It's, you do this and this, you get baptized, you'll be prosperous. You'll, you donate more money, you'll be prosperous. And that is, that is not biblically how profit, the title of profit, 


[00:33:18] Ben: To be clear, there are people who are great spiritual leaders in every generation. 


[00:33:23] That isn't to say that there aren't great leaders, aren't people who seem to be able to hear God more clearly, or at the very least have a gift of leadership and can convey that in a way that people can understand. Those people definitely exist, and people with the gift of leadership, I would argue, are more rare than people who have the gift of prophecy. 


[00:33:41] There are people who can do that. Say it 


[00:33:42] again, Ben. 


[00:33:43] Amen, brother. Preach it. A bit of a side tangent, but there's been a big push in modern society to tell everybody that they can be leaders, that everybody's a leader, that you need to be a leader, that we want to a whole bunch of leaders. No, you don't need a whole bunch of leaders. 


[00:33:59] Leadership is rare because you don't need a lot of them. Real leaders sacrifice an enormous amount to lead people to where they need to be. Like, they sacrifice their time, their effort, their sanity, sometimes their families, almost always their well being. You don't want everybody to live that way. More often than not, what you need to focus on is being a good servant. 


[00:34:20] And that's not the message that people want to hear. They don't want to hear about being a servant. They want to know that they're in charge. I'm the master 


[00:34:26] Gina: of my destiny. I am 


[00:34:28] Ben: the master of my destiny. 


[00:34:29] Cody: It's so popular today is because it fits into this live your truth movement of just be a leader. Do your own thing. 


[00:34:37] People will follow you. You just got to lead. 


[00:34:40] Gina: But you're, we're seeing this in like the Christian faith. We have influencers that have decided that they are Christian now. And they now identify as pastors, like we have plenty of wonderfully beautiful, smart, intelligent people who are very gifted that can give a great one liner, but we don't have a lot of people that are going out, giving this shirt off their back to their neighbor. 


[00:35:05] Ben: And. When you look at real leaders, when you look at real prophets, going back to that, people with the gift of prophecy, most of the people with the gift of prophecy I've known are regular, everyday people. And every once in a while, they'll get something from the Lord, and they'll either mention it in passing, or it'll be something that's bothering them. 


[00:35:23] They can't get it out fast enough. It's like a normal person who has been given a This isn't even an analogy. It's a normal, average, everyday person who's been given a revelation by God. And it's not always earth shattering. Sometimes God just wants to tell you something. Like, it's always important when God tells you something, but it doesn't have to be something that's Mired in mysticism, but aside from that for the people who want to both be these mystical prophets and want to be leaders They don't understand the burden that being a true prophet and a true leader if you're going to combine those two things is Many people with a gift of prophecy just hear from the Lord and sometimes it's for their own personal edification Sometimes it's a message for their families Sometimes it's direction and where you and your family and the people you love should go next like the next step in your life You God is just giving you guidance because he loves you. 


[00:36:10] That's still prophecy. But for tying that with leadership, God is essentially telling you, your life, it's not yours now. It belongs to your flock. That's what a pastor is. A pastor is a shepherd. And a shepherd tends to his flock, and his flock is a bunch of dumb sheep. Sweet, 


[00:36:27] Gina: sweet and adorable and fluffy sheep. 


[00:36:30] Ben: Sweet, 


[00:36:30] Cody: adorable, 


[00:36:31] Ben: fluffy 


[00:36:31] Cody: sheep. But sheep are dumb. Why do you think we're 


[00:36:35] Gina: But we're still sweet and adorable. 


[00:36:37] Ben: But we're dumb. Leaders are cursed with the gift of sight. They see where things are going. Like my dad has been a leader. My grandfather was a leader. There are people who are tortured with sight and they are constantly seeing people go every direction except for where they should be going. 


[00:36:52] And. That is torture. 


[00:36:55] Gina: I asked Cody today, because today's YouVersion Bible app, verse of the day, was Matthew 5, 6. And I was like, filled with what exactly? Because I'm feeling filled with rage. Those who hunger and thirst for righteousness will be filled with what specifically? Please tell me. 


[00:37:15] Cody: They'll be filled, but doesn't elaborate what. 


[00:37:18] Gina: Disappointment. Asking for a friend. It's a difficult burden to bear to have that kind of vision. And to not get that root of bitterness. That has been very challenging as I've matured as a Christian to see people making those choices and to feel a little bit angry on behalf of God and just knowing what's needed and what's not happening. 


[00:37:41] It's not fun to feel that way. 


[00:37:43] Cody: It gives you a little vision of how God feels with us because he knows what's best for us. 


[00:37:49] Gina: And so to go up on a platform and say, God wants to prosper you and he loves you so much and you make him so proud. It's like, Like, what exactly are we doing to make God proud right now? 


[00:38:00] Even those of us that are faithful Christians, I don't think that we really do it the way that he wants us to. Like myself included. I don't think that he's standing in heaven giving me a round of applause right now. 


[00:38:12] Ben: No, I think that he does applaud you at times. Like 


[00:38:14] Gina: sometimes maybe, but I don't think it's as often as I want it to be. 


[00:38:18] Ben: I, I think there's a reason that when you read Paul's letters, at times it comes off as very harsh, and at times it comes off as very loving. There are points, we were talking about Timothy earlier today, there are points where he's encouraging Timothy, and he's speaking very lovingly to him, and there are other times where he's speaking very harshly, and he's speaking very firmly. 


[00:38:36] I think that is in many ways a reflection of God too. There are points where we see him act firmly, and incredibly harshly. And there are times where we see him speak incredibly softly to people who definitely don't deserve it. Why he does that sometimes as far as others, well, that's God's business and not ours. 


[00:38:52] But I think that for all of us, there are times where he's cheering us on and he loves us no matter what. 


[00:38:56] Gina: Yeah. 


[00:38:57] Ben: But I do think that he definitely burns at times with frustration. Because there are things that we very clearly, it's like Paul said, the things I know I should do, I don't do. 


[00:39:07] Gina: Oh gosh, we read that like once a week. 


[00:39:10] Ben: It is, it is honestly one of my favorite scriptures, it really is. 


[00:39:14] Cody: Until you go read it in the KJV, and it's like, what? 


[00:39:18] Ben: I beest with the things that I knowest, I not be, not nigh. Okay. 


[00:39:24] Cody: Who's that? Did Hitler take part in the 


[00:39:28] Ben: KJV? Nein! Oh, they slipped some German in here. Of course they did. 


[00:39:34] It's 


[00:39:35] Gina: tongues. 


[00:39:35] Cody: Yeah, no, it's Martin Luther for you. 


[00:39:38] Gina: Good one. 


[00:39:40] Cody: Cued one. 


[00:39:41] Gina: Thank you so much for taking the time to listen to our podcast today. If you liked what you heard, please feel free to subscribe and share and leave a positive review. And if you would like to connect with us on social media, you can do so on Instagram and Facebook at the logic of God. 


[00:39:58] You can also send us an email at main dot the logic of God at gmail. com. Thanks again for listening. We hope you have a great day.

How to Find A Church

[00:00:00] Cody: Hi, thank you for tuning in to the Logic of God podcast. I'm Cody. 


[00:00:16] Gina: I'm Gina. 


[00:00:16] Cody: And I'm Ben. If you're returning, thank you for coming back and if you are a new guest, welcome. 


[00:00:35] So, we've covered how to study your Bible. Once you grasp that, the next logical step, I think, would be finding the right church that fits where you're at in your walk with God. Definitely. So, is it okay to not go to church? 


[00:00:53] Ben: Actually, I think that is a good question to start with. Because I know of a lot of people who've said at one time or another that they're not religious, but they're very spiritual. 


[00:01:03] And they'll lay some kind of claim to Christianity, and they'll say, I just, I'm not a church person, And they'll say things like, I've never really learned anything new at church, or I feel like I learn more on my own. Yeah, what do you guys think about that? Is that a legitimate reason to not find a church? 


[00:01:18] Gina: Industry standard in the largest churches in America is that staff members do not attend church service. It sends a strange message because you want to get people into your church building to attend service and classes and whatever offerings you have. If you're a mature Christian, should you still go to church? 


[00:01:37] Cause I think the church is valuable for, like, new believers who are looking to find their community and to find accountability and mentoring and learning and different things spiritually, but can you arrive at a destination that suddenly excuses you from going to church? Asking for a friend. 


[00:01:55] Ben: Okay. So at this point, I think the question's answer diverges in two directions. 


[00:01:59] Can you grow in Christ without a church? And can you grow in Christ by yourself? Now I think it's pretty clear you cannot grow in Christ by yourself. Definitely not. 


[00:02:09] Gina: Yeah. 


[00:02:10] Ben: But you desperately need people in your life who are going to speak truth over it. You need people who know more than you do, who can teach you about scripture and about interpretation of scripture, can lead you to different authors and people who know more than they do. 


[00:02:22] And then you can explore, and then you can build their life up as well as them building yours. As iron sharpens iron, one man sharpens another. The question of whether or not you need a church, effectively, you've built a little mini church there. And that ultimately goes into what a church is. So, The Oxford definition of a church is essentially a building used for public Christian worship. 


[00:02:42] That's not really the way it's always been. For the earliest church, the word that they used most often in the Bible is the word Ecclesia. And Ecclesia is a Greek word, it essentially means a gathering. And it's not a word that was used exclusively for religious gatherings. It was literally just a gathering of people, and there was no predetermined amount. 


[00:03:00] I believe there was a typical amount that was associated with this word. I'm not super fluent in Biblical Greek. However, there was another word that was used a couple times, which is where we get the modern word church. And it was a couple of steps translated down from the Greek word karyakos. I'm not sure how that word is pronounced. 


[00:03:17] Doing my best. I'm going to go with karyakos, which is used in 1 and it refers to the Lord's supper. And in Revelation chapter one, verse 10, to refer to the Lord's day. Essentially, karyakos means belonging to the Lord. So. You are the church, you are the karyakos, you are belonging to the Lord. When we take both of those terms together, you are a group of people belonging to the Lord. 


[00:03:40] So from the perspective of the early church, and from a biblical perspective, the church is a group of people belonging to the Lord. You can't do it by yourself. Now that doesn't mean that there has to be a specific building, and I think this is where we're going to get in some territory where some people might disagree with me, I'm not sure. 


[00:03:56] I don't believe that you need to go to a place that is designated a church with a cross on it where there's a congregation that sings a bunch of songs together and you all sit down after the songs and then there's a preacher who comes up and then you go out and you have a barbecue or something. I do believe that you do need other Christians in your life. 


[00:04:13] And I do believe that there needs to be some degree of discipline there where you do need to meet regularly. And you do need to meet, and it's not that you have to sing, but there is praise that's involved. Praise and worship are an aspect of Christianity, and it has been for a very good reason. It's about elevating the Lord, singing praises to Him. 


[00:04:31] There's an entire book of the Bible specifically about that, Psalms. There's an important aspect of interacting with God that involves worship and praise. And so doing that with other believers is a very important thing. On top of that, having a setting where you can talk to one another, and then maybe if someone is given a message. 


[00:04:49] Gives that message there were a lot of churches that started that way and there are a lot of modern churches that actually started that Way just a bunch of people. Can you 


[00:04:55] Gina: expound on that a little? What do you mean by messages? 


[00:04:59] Ben: I go back to Nabeel a whole lot, Nabeel Qureshi He talked about how very early on in his Christian walk There was a group of I think six guys and they would meet and then they would just talk with one another for hours about Things that they found when they were studying the Bible that would be more or less a message You It's not a sermon necessarily, but it's people talking about insight that they've received into the Bible. 


[00:05:21] Gina: So it's more spiritual or Holy Spirit led instead of man led through sermons is what you're saying. Yeah, 


[00:05:27] Ben: it's Spirit led, but it's also intellectual because they were talking about intellectual edification, about a mental understanding of Scripture and what's said in it. The, uh, the modern idea of the church, I would say you don't have to have that. 


[00:05:40] I do think that it's a good thing to have, but it's not the only thing that you should have, at the very least. 


[00:05:47] Gina: So this is not an excuse to avoid the modern church. It's more so an explanation of the difference between then and now. Okay. Fair. 


[00:05:59] Ben: But what do you guys think? 


[00:06:00] Gina: We have been on different walks. 


[00:06:03] There was a season where Cody was very vocal about not feeling need, the need to go to a church. He thought it was important when we were dating and when I needed to build a foundation. But we got to a point where we weren't really feeling satisfied with our church in Ohio. And we were going through a really terrible season personally. 


[00:06:26] And I think it was a combination of feeling disappointed by the church's response to what we were going through and then also feeling like they weren't really scratching the itch in terms of theological and intellectual discussion. And we've noticed that at every church that we've gone to, they don't really like to go too deep. 


[00:06:46] They don't like to pick things apart and help people go deeper. It's very much So we see, I see the power in the evangelical church, but I also see some gaps. And I think that is where people are going wrong with their expectations of what a church can provide them. And that's, I think, a really good segue into the church being a building or being people. 


[00:07:14] Because we put a lot of faith in, I put a lot of faith in this building and these pastors. And a lot of times the pastors are overworked. They have a lot of paperwork that stands in the way of allowing the spirit to move. And that's unfortunate, but it's true. And you run into a church that does an incredible job on Sunday. 


[00:07:32] But stuff is lacking in certain demographics the rest of the week. And that's where people have to step up. And it's not the pastor's job, and it's not the church staff job, and you don't have to be in the church building to have that. But you do need to figure out How to live that out in your life. And I think that it is unique to independent calling. 


[00:07:53] So you might have a plumber and a teacher and a doctor all in the same church building, and then they go home and their spiritual gifts are going to look different and their walk with the Lord is going to look different. And it's really powerful to get those people together outside of church to show their diversity. 


[00:08:08] And then to go deeper. That's why I love that we have the group that we have here on this podcast, because there's a lot of variety and diversity, but we get to scratch that itch of going deeper and exploring and explaining things that sometimes the church misses. 


[00:08:22] Cody: Yeah. I think it gets into your view and what you believe the church is meant for most modern churches. 


[00:08:29] I think Gina, you mentioned, or maybe it was Ben is more of an evangelical approach now than a feeding approach. And that is what we've been talking about throughout the podcast is learning how to feed yourself and not being spoon fed by the church in general. It's great to go there and grow and get fed, but that shouldn't be your only source of scripture. 


[00:08:58] That shouldn't be your only source of connection with God that should happen throughout the week. So do, do I think you need to get into church? Yes. For the. Fellowship and worship and the accountability that has, but not necessarily going there. And that's your only time to be fed. 


[00:09:16] Gina: I agree with that. And I think the reality is that if you have expectations of your church, like at all, you're always going to be disappointed. 


[00:09:25] You're always going to find a reason to become church hurt. And that's why a lot of new Christians leave because, Oh, the pastor. Made a mistake. And now I can't trust any pastors or the church didn't offer the thing that I wanted them to offer. And they wouldn't listen to me and I paid my tithe and I paid my dues and I did what I wanted to do and what they wanted me to do and they won't do what I want. 


[00:09:45] So if you go into. This whole idea of going to church with these expectations. The pastor is a holy person who lives a sanctified life, who's perfect, and they're basically Jesus on Earth. You're getting this incorrect presupposition that was probably provided to you from Catholicism and from modern media, like movies and stuff, and then you're also going in with your own hurts and your own habits and things that are bothering you, and you're looking for a solution for that, and church definitely can help you find that solution. 


[00:10:14] solution, but you're going to be very disappointed if you go into church with expectations and then they don't meet your expectations and you don't communicate properly and ask for what you really need and get resourced. 


[00:10:26] Cody: And you see this a lot throughout the Old Testament with the Israelites is the priests were really the only connection to God that the Israelites had. 


[00:10:35] They had to go through the priests. And we've carried this into modern Christianity of thinking that we have to have somebody mediating between us and God or that they have a better communication line with God. And we put them on this pedestal. That's not how it is. We're all called to be priests through Christ, like, not necessarily, you're not, everybody's not called to be a pastor and teach, but in a sense, we have that ability to connect with God on an individual level without the assistance from anybody else. 


[00:11:10] Gina: Yeah, you may need instruction, but you don't need them to be the way maker or whatever. 


[00:11:15] Cody: Yeah, they should be equipping you. and tooling you up to make that connection yourself, but they are not that connection or that tool. 


[00:11:24] Gina: And I mean, in all of the years that we've been in church, we've seen pastors fall. 


[00:11:29] We've seen pastors not study. We've seen pastors be extremely spiritually unhealthy. So even if they don't give you the tools and educate you, that's not an excuse to quit. You just have to keep looking. 


[00:11:40] Cody: Oh, and is it Paul or Peter who talks about being every breeze of the wind going to and fro. Like, every man made theology, I can't remember the scripture, but that's what happens when you put your foundation in man, rather than building the foundation yourself. 


[00:11:59] Yeah. 


[00:12:00] Ben: I agree with you guys 100%, and I do think that there is an element of quasi deification that may be too strong a word, but there is a lot of that kind of thing, where people elevate pastors beyond what they should be. That being said, I do think that leadership is still a very important thing. There are people who have the gift of leadership and there are a lot of leaders who do, it's not that they hear from God in a way that you can't, but it's that a lot of times the people who have the gift of leadership are capable of assembling this information and disseminating it in a way that's very digestible for people. 


[00:12:35] And you get it in a way when someone with leadership teaches you in a way that you won't get it yourself. And for those people who have the gift of leadership who go into ministry, those are the people who should, in theory, become pastors who end up leading churches. And there is value in an actual church building. 


[00:12:52] I don't want to make it sound like we all go to church. I may have gotten given the impression earlier that I'm more for people meeting in Your mom's basement with a group of eight men and women singing songs and then sharing what you read in the Bible and then going home on Sunday. I'm not against that, and I do think no matter what, you should be supplementing your time at church on Sundays with something like that. 


[00:13:14] You should be having a Bible study, a group of people that you meet either through church or your friends. Who you meet up with and then you do stuff aside from just church and you can do things like community outreach because I guarantee you there are people in your community who have needs and the best way that you will find to get closer to the almighty and to get closer to the people in your church is to do a ministry outreach program where you go out and you help people to be the actual hands and feet of Jesus. 


[00:13:39] I promise you, you will grow a lot as a person and you will grow closer to the people in your church. 


[00:13:44] Gina: I would agree with that. I would just caution that if you think it's sufficient. To pay your tithe and not serve, or to serve only when it gets shown on social media, or to serve only when your church premeditates it, you're probably not serving with the right heart. 


[00:14:04] Serving is a really big part of being a Christian. It's a lot of what Jesus has called us to revolves around serving our local community. And so that's just my little spiel. But I really dislike the mentality that I've seen in megachurches of give us your tithe and we will use it. And then also give us your time, but only how we say so. 


[00:14:29] And that's it. That's all they do. And I don't really think that's good enough because there are people in our communities that are crying out for help and we're walking past them and we don't even see them. And I think that's a problem. Serving needs to be more than what your church is offering. 


[00:14:45] Ben: Yeah, I think there is a temptation. 


[00:14:47] I think we've all fallen victim to this at one time or another, where you're asking, okay, what's, what is the minimum? What is asked of me? What is it that I'm being asked? I want to do that and no more. Like, where is that line? I will go to that line. I won't cross it. I just want to know because I want the rest of my life to belong to me. 


[00:15:03] God asks for 10%. I will give that. The 90 is mine. And yet, we all think that way. From time to time. The enemy gets his wins and when he can. That isn't the way that we should be approaching things. I absolutely agree with you Gina. We should be not looking for the minimum We should be looking for what God is asking us to do 


[00:15:19] Gina: day to day not on an annual basis It would be day to day like person to person. 


[00:15:25] How can I be an image bearer of Christ? So Let's answer once and for all is a church the building or the people I think we all have different thoughts. 


[00:15:34] Cody: The church, is it the building or the people? I would generally say that the church is the people, because if you look at the church being taken up in Revelation, it's not, your church building's not going to heaven with you. 


[00:15:49] And there's a lot of different aspects, the hands and feet, Paul describes it as individual body parts, and with Christ as the head. So I think it's more of a. person than, like, people, persons than it is the building, in my opinion. 


[00:16:05] Gina: Let's break down Christianese for a second. What is the Big C Church? 


[00:16:11] Cody: The Big C Church is like the whole of Christianity, like, worldwide. 


[00:16:16] Ben: Like all of the believers together, essentially. Yes, yes. All of the people who believe that Jesus Christ is Lord. is God incarnate who came to earth 2, 000 years ago, suffered and bled and died for your sins and rose again. All of those people, essentially all people who adhere to the five central assumptions that we outlined in the first several episodes of our podcast. 


[00:16:36] So, yes, the big C church is people who recognize that God exists, that God is good and perfect in his goodness, that he loves us, that he demonstrated that love by coming in the form of Jesus Christ 2, 000 years ago, and that he speaks to us through the Holy Scriptures, the Bible. Those five things, that's what makes you the big C church. 


[00:16:53] Gina: So a church is the building. The church is the people. That's my definition. 


[00:16:59] Cody: I think that's accurate. 


[00:17:00] Gina: Thank you. 


[00:17:01] Ben: I would say that's actually a very good explanation. But I would also say that inside this question, there's the idea of, is there such a thing as hallowed ground? Is there such a thing as ground, a place that is sacred that you would want to do your worshiping? 


[00:17:15] Not that God would not hear you anywhere else, but there are individual places that would bring you closer to God if you worship there or sought him there or prayed there. And I would say, yes, actually, there are places that you could consider to be hallowed ground, holy ground. Aside from the fact that God literally says that when he talks to Moses in the burning bush, and you could say that was only holy ground because God was physically there. 


[00:17:39] Yes, I would agree. That's why I would say that there are places where people have been anointed in the spirit, where they pray together. And where that's a regular occurrence, where you could say that is hallowed ground. Now that doesn't mean that there's some kind of magic there. 


[00:17:52] Gina: We went to Israel in March, and we had a lady with us that was like, I'm getting healed! 


[00:17:59] And it was like, what? Because she thought that going to holy places would heal her, and not her faith. 


[00:18:05] Ben: But there's um, like the pool, that was at the time of Christ considered to be a holy place, where the angel would churn the waters, and if you could manage to get to the water, you would be healed. The Bible doesn't explicitly say that's wrong. 


[00:18:15] And it doesn't implicitly say that it's right either. 


[00:18:17] Gina: I wish we had a record such and such number was healed and it would be so interesting. 


[00:18:22] Ben: But I would say that just speaking from personal experience, there are churches I've gone into where I've entered and it feels like there's nothing there. It's just a bunch of people who meet and they sing songs and then they leave. 


[00:18:34] And then I've been to tiny churches with barely anybody in there. They're like in a strip mall. They can barely scrape together enough money from the 50 people who attend regularly to pay for the rent. But then you go in there and it's like you can feel the spirit in the air. 


[00:18:47] Cody: Is that the building or the people 


[00:18:49] Ben: though? 


[00:18:49] It's really both because it's even something that you can feel at times when no one is there. And sometimes you could say, okay, that's just my memory of the event. Whatever, your memory is tied to the place. And I would say, yeah, like that's true of, and it's not even just churches. There are places in nature where people will pray, like they will feel that it's such a beautiful and incredible place that it evokes a feeling of awe and reverence. 


[00:19:11] Gina: There are holy moments for sure. 


[00:19:14] Ben: And I would say that there are places like Notre Dame, where the fact that it took people hundreds of years to make, and there were people who gave their lives in service to making something so beautiful. For just the sake of God, and they knew that they would not see it. 


[00:19:29] And they knew that people would forget who they were, but they knew they were making a monument to the almighty. Have you ever been there? No. And I haven't. It 


[00:19:37] Gina: feels like the most evil place. I was like terrified in that place. 


[00:19:42] Cody: Is it because you thought the hunchback was going to come? No, 


[00:19:45] Gina: no, it's the oppression of the Catholic church, but that's a whole other episode or maybe not. 


[00:19:50] Ben: We might get to that in a bit because we do have differences between Protestants and Catholics. And what are those? We'll get to that in a little bit, but it's sufficient to say, I do think that. It's not necessarily that you, God makes it so that he is more in one place than another, but I do think there are places where you feel God's presence more powerfully. 


[00:20:08] Gina: Do you think that's because of the posture of the people that are involved? Or do you think that it's, do you think that the people are the preventing factor or what would be the reason why God wouldn't be present somewhere? 


[00:20:22] Ben: So I don't want to go too much into it. There have been places where I been like actual physical places. 


[00:20:28] And it's just me, and God is not there, and it's not a church, it was actually a home, it was a home I grew up in, and God was not there. Not that he was completely banished, but you could feel that it wasn't a good place, it was a bad place. If we can reason from that, that there are places where it feels like God's presence has withdrawn. 


[00:20:47] It would also make sense that there are places where God's presence is more condensed, where it seems like there is more of him. Now, it would also stand to reason that if there are individual locations where that is the case, it's not just people meeting. It would also make sense there are individual locations where it's almost like God is being sentimental. 


[00:21:04] Now, I, I wouldn't be able to back this up with scripture necessarily. Maybe there's something somewhere. But I would think that there are, like, God talks about doing things for people that didn't earn it for the sake of David. Like, he talks about David's descendants, and he says, For the sake of my servant David, I will show you kindness. 


[00:21:21] Like, God is sentimental about people. Like, he has a special relationship with certain people. And I would think he also maybe has a special relationship with certain places. Now again, I wouldn't teach a sermon on this, and I'm not married to the idea. It's more just amusing. Like, maybe there is something to that. 


[00:21:37] I don't know. 


[00:21:38] Cody: Yeah, I'm open to the idea, but for me, just looking at the Old Testament and how much work went into purifying a place where God could dwell that is man made. is hard for me to think that still exists today outside of the inward cleansing of the blood of Jesus. With the tearing of the veil and the destruction of holies and all of that, and then the inward dwelling of the Holy Spirit, we are now cleansed and purified how they used to do the old temples with the blood of Christ. 


[00:22:19] now so that the Holy Spirit can dwell in us, and to me it's more people based than place based. 


[00:22:26] Ben: I would agree that no matter what, it is more people based than place based. If you are looking to develop a relationship with Christ, if you're going to choose between either seeking out natural beauty that evokes God so strongly that it brings you closer to Him versus speaking to people who know Him personally and have a personal relationship, go with the people every day of the week. 


[00:22:45] Gina: I have a question. If, in the Old Testament, they worked very hard to make a place clean and purified and holy enough for God to reside, would it then make sense for people to need to make themselves as pure and as holy as possible so that God could dwell within them? 


[00:23:04] Cody: I think there is something to that. 


[00:23:06] Jesus does that purification with his sacrifice on the cross, but also, before taking communion, there's I can't remember, I wish I had the scripture pulled up, but there's something about not bringing your sin into taking communion and the congregation. 


[00:23:24] Ben: Taking it in an unworthy way. Yes. Yes. 


[00:23:26] Cody: Yes. So I think there's something to that, yes, but. 


[00:23:30] To pinpoint it and build a doctrine around it. I don't think there's enough information for that. But yeah, if you want to be like this indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and I'm not talking like you instantly speak in tongues or anything, but I do think there is a sense of purification of your heart that you have to do to even be able to receive that. 


[00:23:50] Ben: Any thoughts? What's curious is that the people that we know in the Bible that We're the closest to God looking at the Old Testament. First, we have David. We have Elijah David was so close to God that he was considered a man after God's own heart And he was also one of the most flawed people you'll find in the Bible He made mistakes constantly but the reason that he was considered to be a man after God's own heart was because he was constantly seeking God and whenever he Made a mistake he would repent and he would seek the Lord's judgment as opposed to man's judgment You or the judgment of his peers because he believed that the God he served was the most just and loved him and loved his people and would ultimately seek their benefit, even if there was a great punishment that would come in the wake of something terrible he did. 


[00:24:36] And when you look at a guy like Elijah, Elijah was an incredibly sarcastic guy, He was running away constantly. He was afraid. He was a man who lived in fear, and the Bible makes that clear. And God had to specifically come to him and give him strength in order for him to continue his work. The Bible makes it very clear that we are imperfect people, but God will still come to us, and he will still make himself known, and he wants a relationship with us. 


[00:25:01] And when you go into the New Testament, like Peter, the rock on which he will build his church, Yeah. It's that's not the type of person you would expect to be your first draft pick, like the guy who gives you up three times, no less. But that's the type of people that God uses. And I do think that, that there came a point in Peter's life, especially where there seemed to have been a turning point. 


[00:25:22] He still made mistakes. Paul talks about how there was a point where Peter started spending a lot more time with the Jewish believers, and he started distancing himself from the Gentiles and was making eyes with the circumcision group. And Paul had to call that out and go to his face and say, this isn't the right thing, you know, that it's not right. 


[00:25:40] So he still made mistakes, but I do agree with you, Cody, and that I think There is a point where there was a turn inward, and he started analyzing his life for the worst aspects of himself, and he called upon the Spirit to help him with those things. Like, there was the point where he was literally anointed with the Holy Spirit, and there was a very clear change in the Book of Acts going forward, where Peter was not the same person. 


[00:26:01] And, so yeah, I do think that sanctification through the Spirit is a thing, that if you are someone who is actively seeking the Lord, And calling upon his name and embracing the power of the Holy Spirit. You are going to be a changed person and people should see that in you. Having said all of that, we'll assume going forward that it is a good thing for you to find a church, a small C church, because you are already a part of the big C church, like Gina said, finding a small C church, finding a building, a place where there are other like minded individuals who will help you grow. 


[00:26:31] How do you go about finding one of those? 


[00:26:33] Gina: I know, pick me. Yes. Flyers in the mail for fall family festivals. 


[00:26:38] Cody: All family festivals. Flyers? Celebration of the devil's holiday? No. 


[00:26:44] Gina: No. Trunk or treat? This is how we found the Pentecostal church, accidentally. They were so persistent. They kept sending us mail and we were like, maybe we should go. 


[00:26:53] Ben: You're just encouraging them. You never say yes to a Pentecostal. 


[00:26:56] Cody: In our defense. It's nothing on the flyer was Pentecostal. I did my due diligence of looking on the website, looking at their mission statement, their core beliefs. Nothing said anything about being Pentecostal. And this wasn't just your normal rowdy bunch of Pentecostals. 


[00:27:11] This was cartwheels down the aisles, 


[00:27:14] Gina: very antisocial, 


[00:27:17] Ben: head banging and 


[00:27:19] Gina: banging their head against things. 


[00:27:21] Ben: Yeah, they were smart. They didn't tell you they were Pentecostal. They know what their image is. They know they're not going to get anyone through the door if they're like, Hey, so we are a Pentecostal church. 


[00:27:28] It 


[00:27:28] Gina: was a big, beautiful church, but you walk through this little tiny door in 


[00:27:32] this like really narrow hallway in this really big church. And you're like, okay, something's wrong. So this 


[00:27:38] Ben: actually goes nicely into denomination. So we've just talked about Pentecostal. We mentioned evangelical earlier. So yeah, what exactly is a denomination of. 


[00:27:49] Can 


[00:27:51] Gina: we start by delineating the top down, like the top down umbrellas, you have a Christian and then you have a Catholic and Protestant and then like further that I think that 


[00:28:05] Ben: you basically already started us there. So yeah, there's the big C church Christianity. Then there's cults. Then beneath Christianity, there is Catholicism and Protestantism, and also Greek Orthodox, but nobody cares about them. 


[00:28:21] Oh no, where did 


[00:28:22] Gina: you go? Poor Greek Orthodox, 


[00:28:24] Cody: they make the best cookies. 


[00:28:27] Gina: And they know how to make you feel real guilty. They 


[00:28:30] Ben: have mastered a handful of things really well. That's why they're still around. God bless them. Windex is the cure all, or is that just Greek? Big fat. I think that's the movie. That was my big fat Greek wedding, but could still be. 


[00:28:41] I don't know. I don't know enough Greek people to tell you, but regardless, it's mainly these days talked about in terms of Protestantism and Catholicism. 


[00:28:49] Gina: What's a Protestant? 


[00:28:50] Ben: So a Protestant is essentially a Christian who is not Catholic. 


[00:28:53] Gina: Okay. 


[00:28:54] Cody: Protestant. 


[00:28:55] Ben: What were 


[00:28:55] Cody: they? Pro Catholic church. 


[00:28:57] Ben: Yeah. So that kind of goes back to a Martin Luther. 


[00:29:00] And there's a gentleman back in, what was it, like the 1500s? A long 


[00:29:04] Gina: time ago. 


[00:29:05] Ben: Somewhere around there. And he was a gentleman who had read the Bible and was not a fan of some of the things that the Catholic Church was teaching. And so he came up with something called the Ninety Five Thesis, which was specifically about, Uh, one of the seven sacraments, basically the seven things that you can do as a Catholic to atone for sin. 


[00:29:24] And one of the seven sacraments is something called indulgences. And at the time of Martin Luther, it was the idea that you could pay money to the church to forgive sins. And Martin Luther had read the Bible, and he came up with 95 reasons from the Bible about why. Uh, paying money to the church as an indulgence is not a good thing, but one thing led to another. 


[00:29:42] It's a gross oversimplification, but for the sake of this podcast, from that, there was the protesting or Protestant movement that developed, and then that further fractured into different groups. So these days we have quite a few, I think it's well over a thousand different. 


[00:30:01] Gina: A denomination is a branch or subgroup within Christianity that has a distinct name, organizational structure, and set of core values, or doctrines. 


[00:30:12] The attempt to state, in intellectually consistent terms, the message of the gospel and the content of the faith it elicits. 


[00:30:26] Ben: Yeah, there's our denominations, which are groups of people who have doctrines, and doctrines are us interpreting what the Bible says. 


[00:30:34] Gina: I have a question. 


[00:30:35] Ben: Yes? 


[00:30:36] Gina: What's the difference between the opinion and the interpretation of the Bible? 


[00:30:41] Ben: They're, they're both more or less the same thing. You interpret based on opinion. 


[00:30:46] But opinion is more an immunity to being called you're wrong, whereas an interpretation you actually have to provide your homework. 


[00:30:52] Gina: Do you agree with that? For the most 


[00:30:54] Cody: part, 


[00:30:54] Gina: yeah. Okay. I'm just playing games. I'm sorry. 


[00:30:59] Ben: No, it's okay. We're having fun here, folks. But yeah, there's the Catholics and then the Protestants, and then the Protestants divide into thousands of different groups. 


[00:31:07] But there are three main ones in the United States. So, if you're going to try to find a church, it's probably going to be one of these three groups. Uh, the largest group, according to the U. S. Religious Census, which was done in the year 2020, was the Protestant denomination, non denominational. 


[00:31:24] Gina: Non conformist. 


[00:31:26] Ben: Now, you may be wondering, uh, how on earth can you have a denomination that's called non denominational? Essentially what it means is that there are groups, denominations that go back hundreds of years with their own sets of traditions and things like that. And so you'll have tons of individual churches that adhere to more or less a certain kind of central doctrine that's taught by that denomination. 


[00:31:48] A non denominational church is essentially a church that's on its own. It's in its own orbit. It doesn't have a history going back. And it doesn't have Like a council or a group of people who inform all churches under that branch, under that umbrella of a denomination. What it is that they should believe is their core doctrines. 


[00:32:06] So if you have a non denominational church, you don't really know what you're getting. They could be close to Methodist or they could be close to Baptist or they could be close to Catholicism or Like they could be pretty much anything 


[00:32:16] Gina: or as our pastor likes to say we better be Pentecostal. We better be charismatic We better be all of them 


[00:32:22] Ben: But so yeah, there's individual denominations, but then there are different approaches which is more what I would call Pentecostal and evangelical So yeah, what would you guys consider Pentecostal and Evangelical churches? 


[00:32:34] Gina: Evangelical would be with the intention of spreading the message of the gospel. They would be trying to reach as many people as possible with the good news. 


[00:32:43] Cody: Yeah, they usually have some sort of underlying, like if it grows to a certain amount, they plant a new church and they target certain areas is the evangelicals that I know of. 


[00:32:54] I don't know any specific doctrines to evangelical churches though. 


[00:32:59] Ben: Yeah, it is more or less just the focuses on spreading the word and spreading the church. But then you also have stuff like Pentecostal. We've mentioned Pentecostal a few times. So how would you describe a Pentecostal church? 


[00:33:09] Cody: Pentecostal likes to how would I put this so I don't 


[00:33:16] Gina: They believe that the Holy Spirit interacts with them, or possesses them, or fills them, and it comes out in unique ways. 


[00:33:27] Cody: They believe in the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and the very activeness of the gifts of the Holy Spirit in today's day and age. 


[00:33:38] Ben: Essentially, if you've seen either of the Blues Brothers movies, It's that. And it's not even an exaggeration. That is almost exactly what you should expect if you find yourself going to a Pentecostal church. 


[00:33:50] There is tons of singing. There's tons of weeping all over the place. There's tons of 


[00:33:55] Gina: laughter. Tons 


[00:33:56] Ben: of laughing, tons of dancing. Almost always musical accompaniment for the pastor when he preaches. Oh yeah. That's very important. 


[00:34:03] Gina: We went by accident and people were cartwheeling up and down the aisles. 


[00:34:08] banging their heads against pews, laughing maniacally, clapping, waving flags, shaking tambourines. It was a lot of noise and things happening all at once while somebody was trying to teach and praise. 


[00:34:24] Cody: There was no snakes though, so thankfully they weren't that far. But 


[00:34:26] Gina: I 


[00:34:28] Ben: actually went to a Pentecostal church back when I was going to college, and I actually really enjoyed it. 


[00:34:34] There are different degrees of energy that you'll find in Pentecostal churches, just like with all churches, even when you go to specific denominations. Actually, before I go into that, I should probably finish for the top three. So yeah, number one was non denominational. So basically they don't know what they're doing. 


[00:34:50] We don't know what we're doing. We're non denominational. We're confused. Someone help us. The second largest was Baptist. And Baptist is actually another fairly wide umbrella. Baptists do vary pretty significantly church to church. There are different sub denominations within Baptist. There's the big one, which is Southern Baptist. 


[00:35:08] And then there's another branch, I don't remember the name of the other. 


[00:35:11] Cody: First Baptist is a big one. 


[00:35:14] Gina: I want to make a differentiation for anybody who's gone to a church and maybe not been aware of where they're at. If you have female pastors at your church, You're probably at a non denominational church 


[00:35:25] Cody: or Methodist. 


[00:35:26] Gina: Yeah, it's really it's becoming more popular But if you're seeing women teaching in your church, which is not a bad thing. It's a good thing Depending on who's teaching and all of that You may not be in the denomination that you think you're in. I don't know, I wanted to point that out because that's a big reason people go into the churches we've been into and then they leave because they realize women are teaching and it's really important that you know what you're getting yourself into when you go. 


[00:35:56] Ben: Yeah, so it is very important for you to understand the reason that we're pointing out the different denominations here. The big three, which. To round it out, the last one's Methodist, but to round out those three denominations, the reason that you would even care is because if you're going to a Baptist church, while there are a lot of differences between the various Baptist churches, and there are different disagreements that they have about doctrines, and there's a degree of liberty that they have in teaching the Bible. 


[00:36:25] There are certain doctrines that are pretty consistent throughout all Baptist churches. And if you look into the Baptist theology, and you find that there are certain things that you disagree with, you don't have to go to a Baptist church. 


[00:36:39] Gina: Thank you so much for taking the time to listen to our podcast today. 


[00:36:43] If you liked what you heard, please feel free to subscribe and share and leave a positive review. And if you would like to connect with us on social media, you can do so on Instagram and Facebook at the logic of God. You can also send us an email at main dot the logic of God at gmail. com. Thanks again for listening. 


[00:37:03] We hope you have a great day.

What Is Exegesis?

[00:00:00] Cody: Hi, thank you for tuning in to the Logic of God podcast. I'm Cody. 


[00:00:13] Gina: I'm Gina. 


[00:00:14] Cody: And I'm Ben. If you're returning, thank you for coming back. And if you are a new guest, welcome. 


[00:00:32] That brings us to another part of hermeneutics, which is this big fancy word exegesis, which is Jesus. Jesus, but the idea is behind that is basically removing all your presuppositions. You're supposed to come to scripture, basically a new, try to remove reading yourself into the Bible as much as possible. 


[00:00:56] It's nobody. Can 100 percent do that because everybody has ideals and presuppositions that they come with, but trying to remove as much as you can, and Gina mentioned earlier, like knowing your emotional stance and where you are in your emotions and how that can affect you reading different scriptures is important when doing a thorough Bible study. 


[00:01:20] Gina: I have a question. If I read my Bible in full one time, is that good enough? 


[00:01:25] Cody: Oh, that's a great question. No, there's so many different layers to the Bible, and one of the things that got me into reading the Bible more, I was super young, I was at this Promise Keepers conference. I don't know if you remember. 


[00:01:39] It's focus 


[00:01:40] Gina: on the family. Yeah, it's like a 


[00:01:41] Cody: focus on the family. It's like a, it's a big men's group and I was super young, super bored. I hated it. But then there's this one guy who came out on stage and he was talking about secrets in plain sight and he talked in this, I'm going to show you the secrets in plain sight type of thing. 


[00:01:59] Like he was mocking it for the most part, like he wasn't serious, but his whole point and one of the things that got me to question and get into that further study is from Adam to Noah is if you look at the definitions of the genealogy, the names that are given from Adam to Noah, spell out or the meanings of the names have their own little gospel story in them. 


[00:02:24] And the Bible has so many of these layers to it that you could. Study it once and think you've learned all you could from it and then just happen to read it again and the Holy Spirit Oh, how did you miss this? I've been trying to tell you this for years So repetitive study and getting further into it is always good 


[00:02:44] Ben: Well, and there are things that you're definitely going to catch even years later while reading the Bible Like I did not realize how funny Jesus was For literally I only started really understanding that maybe five years ago and keep in mind I'm 32 years old and I've been a Christian my entire life So that's a solid 27 years of not catching the fact that Jesus is not I think a lot of Christians and a lot of people outside the church have an image of This guy who has his arms outstretched, floating two feet off the ground, and light shining off of him all the time. 


[00:03:17] And every time anyone does anything around him, he's always answering calmly, and And he said he's Verily I speak to thee. Yeah, 


[00:03:23] Gina: he speaks in Shakespearean. 


[00:03:25] Ben: And really, when you start You start doing more study and you're really seeking the Lord in what he's written. You start to see that he's being really funny. 


[00:03:34] And he's, sometimes he's even toying with people. And all of these stories suddenly start to become so much more interesting. I'll be honest, these stories didn't interest me very much when I was a kid. I knew them all and I'd heard them a thousand times and I thought, okay, we're learning about Jesus feeding the 5, 000 or the 4, 000 or whatever. 


[00:03:51] Because he fed a lot of people at different points, and he did the same thing more than once. And it's like, okay, that's, uh, fun. But I didn't get it. And there are the little details that start popping out when you read it more, and when you're genuinely looking at it with fresh eyes, and you're trying to understand what's going on and why. 


[00:04:06] And you start to see that the disciples weren't stupid. I always thought when I was a kid the disciples were stupid. They're always, they always seem to not know what's going on. No, you wouldn't know what's going on! It's like Jesus has been standing out there, Teaching for 20 hours and the disciples are tired and they want to go home But all of these people are out here and they're trying to come up with an excuse to go home So they come to jesus and they're like, okay jesus. 


[00:04:29] It's really late and all these people need to go and eat So can we wrap it up and he's oh, well you give them something to eat What You you see how many people are here it would take I don't know like a thousand days wages just to feed these people You Oh, well, what do you have? We got five bread and two fish. 


[00:04:52] Oh, okay. We'll tell everyone to get in groups. Do you realize how funny a situation that is? It's hilarious. 


[00:04:59] Cody: And the fact that he knew what was going to happen, but didn't elaborate to the disciples and just let it happen and didn't rob them of their amazement of the situation. 


[00:05:10] Ben: And think of how often we've all been in a situation where we're tired, we're done, we want to go home, we don't want to do any more of this. 


[00:05:17] And there's an opportunity for God to work an amazing miracle in your life. Just sitting there and all you have to do is just go, just go a little bit further. Listen for what God wants as opposed to what you want because the disciples wanted to go home. And Christ wanted to show them something better than that. 


[00:05:33] And he sent them all home. Remember there are 12 baskets filled with the leftovers from that. One for each disciple. Odds are, they were all hungry and they wanted to go home, and they didn't think they were gonna have enough time or money to do anything. And they got enough food to fill a basket by the end of it. 


[00:05:51] Christ sent them home with a gift basket, isn't that considerate? 


[00:05:54] Cody: Gosh, what an 


[00:05:55] Ben: edible arrangement. So, yeah. There are so 


[00:06:00] Gina: many precious layers in there. You get them more and more. 


[00:06:04] Ben: And you are not going to get them in just one reading. 


[00:06:07] Gina: No, the first time I read Song of Solomon, I was like, what is this trash? 


[00:06:11] And I was very frustrated and I was like, he better never say I look like a goat. And then 


[00:06:17] Ben: Legs like cedar trees, that one. 


[00:06:21] Gina: But then I read it last summer was like the first time I read it and actually was able to appreciate it. So obviously I wasn't ready until almost two years ago now, but 


[00:06:32] Cody: yeah, but it's been one of the, your life first comes, I know, 


[00:06:36] Gina: I know. 


[00:06:36] So it's a, it's just interesting. I like asking that question just because I think some people are like, well, I read it and now I'm reading 


[00:06:43] Cody: other things. Yeah. It's like, I've done my time. Yeah. We talked a little bit about outside materials, but what about people who say that they get their scripture from stuff like the Chosen? 


[00:06:55] They get their biblical teaching. 


[00:06:57] Gina: You mean the prophet Nicodemus and how, I'm sorry. 


[00:07:02] Cody: That was, someone came up to her talking about the Chosen and the prophet Nicodemus. 


[00:07:07] Gina: And how Mary wasn't ready to see Jesus and So God healed Mary. 


[00:07:12] Cody: What about stuff like that? 


[00:07:14] Ben: There's a lot of material out there to try to make the Bible and Biblical stories more digestible. 


[00:07:22] In doing so, they, I wouldn't say they corrupt it, but they change the stories in such a way to try to make it so that people will enjoy it more, and whenever the writers are taking the stories and tweaking them for the big screen, they think, okay, so I'm going to put my own spin on it, or they think, this isn't going to translate very well into video format, so I'm going to change this, or they think, well, there's Sodom and Gomorrah, actually the literal, Wiping out of an entire city is too boring, so I'm going to have two angels come out with swords and kill a bunch of people first, and then Allot and his family will leave. 


[00:07:52] For those of you who are getting your introduction to biblical stories based on television and stuff, it very rarely is the full picture. Even when it's portrayed correctly, it's very rarely the full picture, and it's very rarely portrayed correctly. There have been some attempts to really portray the stories as well as possible. 


[00:08:12] I think The Passion of the Christ actually did a pretty good job. Not everything was perfect in that film, and obviously not everything will be, but they tried really hard to make that a solid representation. 


[00:08:23] Cody: They did pretty good with that one, but again, it still pales in comparison to the Bible. 


[00:08:28] Ben: In the end, the depth that you will get, oddly enough, is not by seeing it, it is by reading it, and by studying it. 


[00:08:34] I think you can get, it can be an appetizer, You can see it and think, wow, this is really nice. But if all you're doing is you're trying to find a substitute for the Bible, you won't find it. You can't just hope that TV is going to teach you the basics and then that's it. And if you're treating this like a chore, and I can understand that because there was a time in my life where I viewed it as that, please don't view this as a chore. 


[00:08:55] I know it's tough. You're hearing all these long words, hermeneutics and exegesis. It's a bit like a relationship with a person. If you're treating getting to know the person as a chore, It's going to be a chore, and it's not going to be fun for either one of you. You need to find something in the Bible that interests you. 


[00:09:11] You need to find something that speaks to you. And from there, you can start diving deeper. And you can find more details about the things that you like, and from there, you should be able to build out and expand into other areas that you may find interesting. It's not that you have to find everything in the Bible interesting from the get go. 


[00:09:27] There are going to be some things that you think are more interesting than others. So I think probably a good idea to start is to find the thing. By reading the Bible, find the thing that you find interesting. Find the first question that really sticks out to you. And that may be the Lord calling you to try to teach you something. 


[00:09:41] to bring you closer. And then from there, you should be able to find something else. It'll lead to another little dot. That'll lead to another little dot. Another point. And you should be able to eventually appreciate the Bible as a whole more than you did before. 


[00:09:55] Cody: What about you? What do you think of digital? 


[00:09:57] Gina: Satan masquerades as an angel of light. 


[00:10:00] Ben: You're a little more harsh than I was. I do agree with you. I wouldn't 


[00:10:04] Cody: I'm not, not a huge fan of The Chosen, Gina and I actually watched it to test it to see how biblically accurate it was. That was our objective. 


[00:10:13] Ben: I'll be honest. I didn't watch it. I just, I wasn't interested. 


[00:10:17] I heard about them treating Matthew with the special deeds. 


[00:10:20] Cody: Even with the Chosen, I know a lot of people who I think are pretty smart and wise people, but they'll watch the History Channel documentaries on the Bible, which are by 


[00:10:31] Gina: They're trying to disprove it. 


[00:10:33] Cody: They're either that or they're these, oh gosh, what is it? 


[00:10:37] It's the Jesus something is the group. 


[00:10:39] Gina: Latter day Saints? 


[00:10:40] Cody: No, 


[00:10:41] Ben: it's the Jesus something. I know what you're talking about. I can't think 


[00:10:44] Cody: of it. It's like a group of scholars, but they're all like super liberal scholars. These are the 


[00:10:50] Gina: people who thought that they could pull DNA off the shroud of Torrin and figure out that Jesus wasn't the right whatever. 


[00:10:58] Ben: Turns out God is not the Father. 


[00:11:01] Cody: These are the people who see the stuff like the Gospel of Thomas. And want to put that in the Bible, even though there's so many reasons why it doesn't. Yeah. 


[00:11:12] Gina: Ultimately, my opinion on media interpretation of Jesus or scripture is just that they want it to be exciting. And we've come to a point in our society where our entertainment is Game of Thrones, watching pregnant people get stabbed to death and sexually assaulted. 


[00:11:30] And so. You have that as entertainment. You have horror films and thrillers and psychological movies, and that becomes our entertainment. And so Jesus has to compete with that. And instead of glorifying God and giving Jesus and God and the Holy Spirit, this authority, they end up representing Satan as this all knowing, all powerful manifesting being that has way more power and control over the world than what is actually true. 


[00:11:58] And. I just think it furthers Satan's agenda of making us live in fear and making us have these doubts about who Jesus is and how his humanity really was, and I don't know. I just, I really don't agree with using media for that. I don't think that it has really powerful evangelistic capabilities, and that's just because of the people that I know who have seen it. 


[00:12:19] And to them, it's just another thing that they think makes them a Christian while they collect their crystals and do the things that they excuse that actually don't make them a Christian. So many people are like, Oh, I'm a Christian. I watched The Chosen. Oh, I'm a Christian. I read the Bible once and they don't go to church. 


[00:12:36] They have no relationship with God. They don't pray. Or if they do, it's to a crystal or a shrine or a seance or a card. And it has absolutely nothing to do with the Bible. And if they actually had read the Bible, they would know that those things are in opposition of the Lord. That's my rant. I don't like it. 


[00:12:53] But if you want to watch something gruesome, go watch the passion because at least it'll teach you something. 


[00:12:59] Cody: Yeah. If that's what you have to have gruesome vulgar, 


[00:13:03] Gina: I'm of my life versus Philippians four, eight, and I'm very easily triggered by gore. I have some friends that post pictures of aborted babies on their social media. 


[00:13:14] And I deleted my social media because of it. And it's just something that I have a very hard time with. I don't like virtue signaling, and I also don't like gore. And so when it comes to TV shows like Game of Thrones and what was the other one? Outlander. Like I lost my ever loving mind when I watched those things. 


[00:13:34] Ben: Oh yeah, I stopped watching Outlander as well. 


[00:13:36] Gina: It's not, acceptable to me. It's not pure. It's not lovely. It's not honorable. It's not true. So why would I spend time looking at it? I have a very hard time with that type of entertainment. I know that has nothing to do with hermeneutics, but you asked. 


[00:13:53] Cody: No, I think it's a day that is good. 


[00:13:57] Jesus seminar. That's who it is. That, 


[00:13:59] Ben: yeah. They're the terrible ones. I knew it was some standard Christian word to follow up with Jesus. 


[00:14:04] Gina: If you saw it on TV, whatever channel, if you saw it on TV, go question it. Pick it apart. 


[00:14:11] Cody: If you heard it from a pulpit, if you heard it on a podcast, if you heard it anywhere online. 


[00:14:16] Besides the Bible. Question it, test it. That's what we're supposed to do. 


[00:14:20] Ben: That actually does bring up a very good question. You're talking about hermeneutics, you're talking about the different processes for it. Is it that we should be going verse by verse as we read the Bible? And we stop, and we try to find a hermeneutical resource. 


[00:14:34] Something that'll tell us everything that there is to know about the verse, the original wording, what the words meant, do we do a word study of those words? How far should you go, and how slowly should you be going, would you say, in doing a study of the Bible? 


[00:14:50] Cody: It depends on what your objective is. If you want to study covenant theology or something like that and look at the covenant, Like, there's the Adamic covenant, so Adam had a covenant that God made him, Noah had a covenant, Abraham had a covenant, everybody knows Abrahams, but not a lot of people get the covenant theology in all of these other different areas, so you can study that and just either, you know, from having read through it before, notate where something like this could happen, or there's different resources you could get for that, even a Google search of where these start and what that is, or what verses contain the covenant in them, and then study those and then go verse by verse into that. 


[00:15:35] If you're just doing a general Bible study and just trying to gain more knowledge, I think a verse by verse approach is good. How I usually do it personally is if I'm doing a book study. So like we're in first Thessalonians, I'll read through the book all the way through and highlight or write down different areas that piqued my interest and not necessarily something that, nothing specific, just stuff that piqued my interest. 


[00:16:03] And then I'll go into a verse by verse study and go through it and do the same thing, just more in depth, and then I'll go into it and look into those certain areas that piqued my interest and why that piqued my interest and if it really meant what I thought it meant or if it's something else. So there's word studies into that, but just getting into things, that's a lot for your first sit down Bible study as a newer Christian, just getting into the study format of it. 


[00:16:31] Gina: If you think you've arrived, read it again. 


[00:16:35] Ben: We've already said there is a lot of depth to the Bible and it's so much depth that you're not going to get it Reading one or two or three or fifty times or a hundred times How much effort should you go into trying to grasp the material as you're going through it? 


[00:16:50] Gina: Pick me If you are dating somebody, or married to somebody, or pursuing a relationship with somebody, and they're all you can think about, and you want to talk to them for 12 hours a day, and you care about their opinion, and you want to know if they like you, and love you, and care about you, but you don't feel the same way about God, then you're not doing it enough. 


[00:17:15] That's what we're supposed to do. That's how we're supposed to feel about God. If you're not getting to know Him that well, and desiring Him that much, and it really is a chore, then you're not understanding the motivation for this relationship with the Lord, and that's ultimately why you should be studying your Bible. 


[00:17:33] For me, I'm horrible at it, and that's why I acknowledge this, is like, There are so many people in my life that need me. My kids, my husband, my job, people at church, my volunteers, all of that. And I get pulled in a million different directions, and sometimes I forget to look up. And I've taken all this time chasing all these people and making sure that they feel satisfied, but I haven't focused that attention on my Heavenly Father. 


[00:17:58] And that's when I know that I'm seriously lacking in my study time. So if you're not being sacrificial, meaning that you're sacrificing your own personal gratification in pursuit of knowledge of the Lord, then you're doing it wrong. And I think we're all doing it wrong. 


[00:18:18] Cody: No, we can't be doing it right. I like that too, because that reminded me, and you might have heard this too, but I hear people who will say that they don't do deep Bible study because that's not them. 


[00:18:32] It's too deep 


[00:18:33] Gina: for me. 


[00:18:33] Cody: Well, it's too deep for me. And it's, You say 


[00:18:36] Gina: it's above their pay grade. 


[00:18:38] Cody: I'm being the hands and feet or something, or I'm serving at church, and that's good enough. I'm a good Christian because I'm doing that, and I don't think enough people realize that in depth Bible study is what we're called to do as Christians. 


[00:18:51] We're called to love God with all of our mind, and if we're not trying to study His word that He gave us to get to know Him better, we are not loving God with all of our mind. We're not pursuing Him with all of our mind. And that's not to mention a lot of other verses, and I think it's Peter 2. it's where the, the word apologetics comes from. 


[00:19:16] We're supposed to have a defense for everything in love, but How are you going to have a defense for what you believe if you're not studying what you believe and why you believe it? And we're also supposed to be approved workmen and not ashamed of what we're doing and what we know. So it is a biblical calling to study your Bible. 


[00:19:36] And if you're 


[00:19:37] Gina: a woman, like, you don't have to be a theologian. You don't have to be a pastor. You want to have a defense? I've heard so many women. I just have faith. I believe. He's not Santa Claus. He wants you to be a warrior in his army. Women can be warriors, not worriers, warriors. 


[00:19:57] Ben: Clever way to play you. 


[00:19:58] Gina: No, I'm serious. I'm, I hate the whole, like, I don't have time to get into it, but. 


[00:20:04] Cody: You hear that a lot, right? So 


[00:20:05] Gina: many female pastors I've heard preach and they say, and I just don't have time. Like why? Why not follow that up afterwards? Do a podcast. Do a reel on your Instagram and explain what you're talking about. 


[00:20:17] Because if you stand there, you, you'd steal your own credibility when you say, I don't have time to explain it. And then you never go back to it. Like. 


[00:20:26] Cody: You just got to believe this. I'm not going to explain it. That's what I get from what you're saying. Maybe I'm wrong. 


[00:20:32] Gina: It's not even about authority. It's my The, the way that I came to understand this is irrelevant because I said so. 


[00:20:40] You're not really teaching anybody else how to know these things if you're just expecting them to be spoon fed. 


[00:20:46] Ben: Well, I think a lot of men and women approach, not just theology and biblical study, but our beliefs. From the position of, we have feelings and opinions about something and then we work backwards to explain them. 


[00:21:03] I think there are a lot of people who are Christians and who are not very well read who feel, Well, I really want to have sex with this woman who I'm in a relationship with. So because I feel it, and I am a Christian, clearly God is okay with me doing it. It's working backwards from the feeling, and providing the justification. 


[00:21:24] Not looking for what the Bible says, and testing what they feel against it. Because that is an excruciatingly difficult thing. And it goes back to what we talked about before with the interpretation of the Bible. It's that we go into it with our own baggage, with our own feelings. And it is incredibly difficult to die to ourselves and to look at the Bible with those fresh eyes, like a child, and see it for what it is. 


[00:21:51] Because we want it to affirm what we think and what we feel. And sometimes it does. I don't think that it's a 100 percent awful strategy to start from the point of you feel something. If you feel righteous indignation at an injustice that's happening in your life, Oftentimes, there is a reason behind it. 


[00:22:07] In fact, there's always a reason behind the things that you feel. So it's not wrong to start from the position of, Okay, I feel something. But don't go, Because I feel something, it is right. You start, I feel something, Why? Sometimes it's from a position of righteous indignation. Sometimes it's from a position of weakness. 


[00:22:27] And if it's a position of weakness, it's being highlighted for you to address. 


[00:22:31] Gina: And I always ask myself, when I've had strong emotions, it's, How is God going to use this? It's not what can I do with this? It's how is God going to use this? Because we've been through some painful stuff And we've had a lot of really desert seasons in our lives and in our marriage and I've had to learn How to ask that question. 


[00:22:53] Ben: I was gonna go in a bit deeper to that. I think we've all dealt with loss And that dealing with it as a Christian, I think, is a very difficult thing. And it really does deserve its own episode. Sufficient to say, we've all encountered points in our life where we've struggled. And we have a strong and powerful emotion. 


[00:23:13] That is always an opportunity for the Lord to interact with you one way or another. And so it's best to seek that out. I think that the final question here, what are some resources that you would suggest? I 


[00:23:24] Gina: was hoping that you would ask. 


[00:23:26] Ben: Well, it's a reasonable question because there's so much information and we piled on these big words. 


[00:23:33] And these big concepts and the idea of, okay, so looking at individual words and the word studies and the context for these words and whether it's literal or figurative or poetic or apocalyptic. So what are some resources that a person can use to start a study of the Bible? 


[00:23:51] Gina: Seminary. 


[00:23:53] Ben: Everyone go to seminary. 


[00:23:54] Do it now. No. 


[00:23:57] Gina: Sorry. 


[00:23:58] Cody: Do you want to go first or are you leaving it a seminary? 


[00:24:03] Gina: Marry somebody who makes you think? I don't know. 


[00:24:07] Ben: Everybody marry Cody. 


[00:24:08] Gina: No. Mine. 


[00:24:10] Ben: Ladies, he's become a Mormon. 


[00:24:14] Gina: Stop. 


[00:24:17] Ben: Oh dear. 


[00:24:19] Gina: Absolutely not. 


[00:24:20] Ben: Gina forbade it. 


[00:24:22] Cody: I guess we're moving to Utah. 


[00:24:26] Gina: I don't know how to respond right now. I'm not happy. 


[00:24:29] Cody: Of course not. What have I done? Way to go, Ben. 


[00:24:33] Ben: I'm sorry. Gina, have you found anything in doing your own version of Bible study that's helped? Aside from coding. We understand he's a good resource. Yes. 


[00:24:42] Gina: Okay, I like Blue Letter Bible. Their app is horrible. 


[00:24:45] Cody: On the phone. It's much better on the computer though. 


[00:24:48] Gina: Okay. Well, I've used the browser on my phone and that's worked better. But yeah, their app was like very, very good. I also really like the Bible Project. It's not my favorite for like super in depth. What I like about it is that it gives you this overview that ties things together in a description that I don't always come to the same conclusion when I'm done reading. 


[00:25:11] And so it helps challenge me a little bit. There's been certain books that I've read after watching or before even sometimes watching video about the Bible project that they, they do. And then, and it's also really entertaining. And then I'll come back to it and be like, Oh, I didn't see it that way. And then I'll go back and study it again. 


[00:25:28] And I'll get something totally new out of it. And they also have a really good podcast. I like the concordance sometimes for word studies. I like that it tells me the pronunciation because I like language. I'm trying to think. Logo software is really good. Kodi uses that a lot more in depth than I have, but I like that for word study as well. 


[00:25:48] And also it gives you a lot of really good commentaries. So those are like the most reliable to me. You can Google and there's all kinds of websites, but you just don't know like where the real opinion and sources like just a generic got questions and stuff like, yeah, they're going to answer questions, but it's going to be heavily opinionated and biased. 


[00:26:09] And so you may find information and it may make sense to you in the moment, but it might not actually be the truth. So. You know, you're just going to have to tread carefully with those websites when you're Googling. But the biggest thing that I think people think is a resource and it's not, is like Googling, what does the Bible say about? 


[00:26:28] And that's something that I know is super common. I see it a lot with my students and I see it a lot in like my women's groups. And like, I just want to caution you against that. There are some really good books. book resources that you can get that will break down certain subjects for you in the Bible. 


[00:26:45] So if you're curious what the Bible says about certain things, you can use those resources. But if you're just Googling willy nilly, you're going to be able to justify anything that you think, say, or do with random websites. that are giving you incorrect information instead of going to the source. And that's something that I started out doing as a Christian and I highly do not recommend it because you're going to end up very confused and resentful and bitter about some of the things that you thought you knew that you don't actually know. 


[00:27:14] So that would be my spiel. Right you, Ben. 


[00:27:17] Ben: Well, for me, like I said at the beginning, the way that I approach biblical study is not through a hermeneutical process. And really, I should be trying more and be more intentional about studying the Bible that way because there is a lot of benefit to a controlled exploration of the Bible rather than para dropping at random points and finding what you find there. 


[00:27:38] But typically what I do, and I think this is helpful for you to do on your own time just for fun, because it will lead you to a lot of different very good information, is there are a handful of people that I've found are very reliable, and whether you agree with them on everything or not, and I guarantee you, you won't, and you shouldn't, they will give you a whole lot of very good information and a lot of expansive knowledge on a lot of different subjects, both Uh, from a foundational aspect and even going deeper into, to different areas of the Bible, talking about the different words and their meanings. 


[00:28:09] I don't know that all of them have done a lot of word studies, but there's also some of that too. I listened to a lot of Pastor Mike Winger. I listen to a lot of Pastor Dan Plord, mostly his stuff on Revelation. He has done some stuff on Genesis I haven't checked out. Listened to a lot of Dr. David Wood. 


[00:28:26] He does a lot of stuff on Islam and its relation to Christianity, but he also does a lot of deep dives into Christianity itself. And with the recent death of his son, he actually went back and covered a portion of Genesis. which is where you can learn a lot of very interesting stuff I've never actually learned, specifically about the story of Abraham sacrificing Isaac. 


[00:28:47] Yeah, Dr. David Wood, obviously Nabeel Qureshi. He's also very good. He gives a lot of great foundational information from the perspective of someone who is hostile to Christianity. And so that applies both to atheism, And to Judaism and to Islam, a lot of the objections that he had. And so that will give you a lot of foundational knowledge as well. 


[00:29:06] Also Ravi Zacharias, unfortunately, he's a leader who did not finish well. 


[00:29:10] Gina: We talked about that. 


[00:29:11] Ben: Yes. And so you need to understand that going in. I'm not going to suggest. him to you just for you to find out that he was a very flawed man who ended absolutely horrendously and betrayed his faith and his family and did things that I don't know could be forgiven. 


[00:29:25] But throughout his life, he did do a lot of valuable things in his ministry. He taught things that I do believe are genuinely true and the lessons that he taught, if you can get around the fact that he finished horribly. are valuable, and you can learn a lot. A lot of the, the reasonings that we put forward, even the name of this podcast, it's reflected in a book of his, Logic of God. 


[00:29:46] We didn't do that intentionally, it just happened, it just happened that way, unfortunately. Uh, that's not an extensive list, obviously there's more people like C. S. Lewis, and even some of the letters that Tolkien wrote, I think are very valuable. So, those are just scraping the top. There are more scholastic people, like, uh, Dr. 


[00:30:03] Stephen Boyd is a Hebraist who's done a lot of very good work on analyzing the Old Testament. Some of his lectures on Genesis specifically I've really enjoyed, but that's more of a college type lecture, and I don't know many people would really enjoy that. When you, you follow these guys through their material on even YouTube, and I hesitate to use YouTube as a reference, but that's where a lot of these guys put up their material. 


[00:30:25] When you start watching these guys videos, they end up referencing to other people who have solid material, like Pints with Aquinas, or Testify, or Inspiring Philosophy. And all of those guys have material. Again, you're not going to agree with everything. Pints with Aquinas is a Catholic, and there's some of his material, obviously, I don't agree with, because I'm not Catholic. 


[00:30:43] But he does have a lot of positions that he teaches on pornography, and he's written a book on pornography. And the man knows his stuff, and he's a genuine, dedicated Christian, and I appreciate the work that he does. But yeah, I do think that there is immense value in a controlled, intentional study of the Bible. 


[00:31:02] I do also think that it is good to just take in material as well, and just let it come in and see what speaks to you. I don't think that's the method you should use for exploring the Bible, but it is an interesting way to just let stuff come and then see what catches your eye, and see what the stuff that you're passionate about, at the very least in this season in your life. 


[00:31:21] Cody, 


[00:31:22] Cody: what would you recommend? 


[00:31:23] Ben: You thought you were going 


[00:31:24] Cody: to escape? Ah, there's so much. I'm gonna go into a list, but ultimately, whatever gets you reading your physical Bible is the best thing for you. 


[00:31:34] Gina: But I read a book that quoted the Bible. 


[00:31:36] Cody: That's not good enough. 


[00:31:37] Gina: But I listened to a person who claimed they were channeling Jesus. 


[00:31:41] Cody: That's satanic. Did he do it through a crystal? An orb. 


[00:31:47] Gina: Sorry, I can't. 


[00:31:49] Cody: No, but whatever gets you reading your Bible is a good resource. people I like or recommend. So for newer Christians, the Bible project is definitely one I recommend to everybody, especially if you're getting into a Bible study, it helps you get that overview of the book before you start going into a more verse by verse study. 


[00:32:10] Some of the themes in that book that starting out are very hard to pick up on. Tim Mackey knows Biblical Hebrew, has studied that for many years, so he's a pretty reliable source, albeit he's from a very liberal college that he learned Biblical Hebrew from, but he's got some good theology and I trust him for the most part. 


[00:32:30] Another guy who is borderline young Christian to higher level academic stuff as well is Dr. Michael Heiser. I like him a lot just because he gets you thinking. And I don't agree with everything that he says like anybody else that I would list, but one of his favorite sayings is read the Bible like a novel, question everything in it. 


[00:32:51] And I think that gets people to read it more often if they're questioning what they're reading and actually knowing that what it says is true. Gina mentioned Blue Letter Bible. Love that one as a free resource. Logos is to get the full capabilities. Very expensive. If I wasn't in school for theology, I would not have that. 


[00:33:14] If money's not an issue, Logos is phenomenal. There is free versions of it where you can get the side by side interlinear and different translations and stuff. So it's good too for that. Tons of authors. I like William Lane Craig. He's got his own. Website. Frank Turek. I can't remember. Is his a reasonable faith? 


[00:33:35] He also has a podcast. I think it's I Don't Have the Faith to be an Atheist. I know that's his book. Is that his podcast too? I know. I can't remember because Norman Geisler also has one and they might be partnered up because I think a couple of those guys were partnered up, but reasonable faith is a good one. 


[00:33:52] Got questions was brought up. I'm not a huge fan of got questions because everybody on there is a. Very strict Calvinist, so you'll get this, and Dispensationalist. Those are 


[00:34:04] Gina: some big words, sir. 


[00:34:05] Cody: Two very big Christianese words, but. Well, to be fair, they don't have a choice. Yeah, but not to say, not to say either one of those is bad, but. 


[00:34:15] You only get the got questions answers. You only get from one viewpoint of the Bible, not all of them. And they try to represent other sides, but they do a very poor job at it. So yeah, that's, I think pretty much all the resources I use. I want to throw out, 


[00:34:30] Gina: I want to throw out one more unconventional resource, because I think it's all well and good to have like super formal and highly educated discussion and study, but Nate, I'll never forget our friend, Nate. 


[00:34:46] If he's listening, we love you, Nate. He studies his Bible while listening to epic movie soundtrack music, and it helps him Get his head in the 


[00:34:57] Cody: Yeah, specifically the Old Testament. The, uh, Old Testament fight scenes. Battles 


[00:35:03] Gina: and war. And 


[00:35:04] Cody: genealogies. He'll listen to that theatrical music. I don't know what it's 


[00:35:08] Gina: But it really, I struggled when I was reading those first couple of books in the Bible. 


[00:35:12] And it actually really helped. And it's something that I now tell my students to do. And they love. And so you don't always have to be inside the box. You can do things that are like wacky and it works for you and it helps you engage and it helps you stay focused. And your hermeneutical process might include the Lord of the Rings soundtrack. 


[00:35:32] Cody: What is it? I think everybody who starts to plan, or they start a Bible in a year plan, like 80 percent of them stop in Leviticus, I think it is, so they don't even make it, what, that's three books in, and they don't even make it all the way through Leviticus. If you hit that wall, throw on that music. 


[00:35:51] Gina: Yeah. 


[00:35:51] Ben: I mean, a lot of them do it as a chore, and it is sad. And I think they do start out with the best of intentions. But Gina, I think you've actually brought up potentially the most valuable resource you will ever have in your life. And it's the people in your life. Yeah. They will not know everything. They will not know more than the early church fathers, or some of the greatest minds that Christianity has ever produced. 


[00:36:13] But they're there. And you can bounce ideas off of them, and they can go on the journey with you. And sometimes all you really need, is a friend with you to go on the journey. 


[00:36:23] Gina: Definitely. Thank you so much for taking the time to listen to our podcast today. If you liked what you heard, please feel free to subscribe and share and leave a positive review. 


[00:36:35] And if you would like to connect with us on social media, you can do so on Instagram and Facebook at the logic of God. You can also send us an email at main dot the logic of God at gmail. com. Thanks again for listening. We hope you have a great day.

What is Hermeneutics?

[00:00:00] Cody: Hi, thank you for tuning in to the Logic of God podcast. I'm Cody. 


[00:00:08] I'm Gina. 


[00:00:09] Cody: And I'm Ben. If you're returning, thank you for coming back and if you are a new guest, welcome. 


[00:00:25] Okay so last week we covered the kind of basics of why you should study your Bible. And a little bit of how you do that, but we're going to go more into the hermeneutical process, which is just a fancy way of a outline structured way to study your Bible. 


[00:00:50] Gina: But I like just the whole like, okay, magic book. 


[00:00:53] I'm going to open you to a random page. Tell me what I need to know for the day. 


[00:00:57] Cody: Would that be considered cherry picking? Okay. Okay. Nobody ever does that. 


[00:01:03] Gina: Who would do that? 


[00:01:04] Ben: Well, I think that's actually a decent place to start. So, could you in theory just just Open up your Bible and trust that the Lord is going to lead you to a place in there that'll speak to you and then read the Bible that way. 


[00:01:15] Even study the Bible that way. Just go to random points and then, you know, follow the little lowercase b that sends you to the footnote that sends you to someplace else in the Bible. Like, in theory, that should send you somewhere, right? 


[00:01:26] Gina: If you read the footnote. If you understand the context. Like, if you don't have those two things. 


[00:01:33] And you're just like, he makes me lay down in green pastures and he has a plan for me to prosper me. And you don't understand who that's to or why, then it is kind of irrelevant to your Christian walk. 


[00:01:46] Cody: You mean the Bible wasn't written specifically for me? 


[00:01:51] Gina: Well, no. What? It's a very romantic love letter from the Lord directly to you. 


[00:02:00] Only, not me, not Ben, you. 


[00:02:02] Cody: Yeah, those promises are mine. 


[00:02:04] Gina: Uh huh. 


[00:02:04] Cody: He forgot about me when he wrote it. Her, too. 


[00:02:08] Ben: They're just for me. Sorry, Gina. So unfair. 


[00:02:12] Cody: No, so getting into the structure of Bible study, do you think that it is appropriate to, right, even like Ben said, you randomly pick things, but then that leads to a footnote and then the footnote leads you to the Old Testament. 


[00:02:30] Then the Old Testament leads you to, you know, maybe a specific prophet and then that prophet leads you to another prophet and then it leads you back to the New Testament. Is that Bible study? Is that a good way to structure a study? 


[00:02:44] Gina: For somebody as chaotic as me, like that is. That's how I learned how to read the Bible, is doing the whole, like it started as cherry picking and then it kind of evolved into, well, but what is that really? 


[00:02:56] Because you and I would have conversations and you'd poke me and be like, are you sure that's what that means? And then I would go back and look and it led me in different directions. And so like, that's how I learned to read the Bible as a person who became a Christian as an adult. I don't necessarily think it's the best start to reading the Bible, but I still learned. 


[00:03:18] understood God's character more. I just don't think it was as structured and as analytical as it probably should have been. 


[00:03:25] Ben: Yeah, I think last week we covered where you might want to start reading the Bible if you're a new Christian. That's not necessarily where you're going to start studying. Like, I guess that does lead into another question, which is when should you start studying the Bible? 


[00:03:38] Should you do your best to just read it and appreciate the Bible first? Should you read and study at the same time? Or should you be dedicated to Learning that the culture and context first and then read the Bible 


[00:03:51] Gina: that kind of brings to mind the the parable of the sower and The soil preparation so you kind of start out with the milk so to speak and then you develop you cultivate and you get deeper And deeper so you stop taking your pastor's word for it and you start talking to people about it through discipleship and fellowship And then you take it a step further and you open your Bible and then you're like, okay The Bible says this and then you go to understand it and it becomes study. 


[00:04:15] And it's sort of like, you know, getting yourself into this situation where your house is built on a firm foundation and all of that. That was multiple parables in one sentence though. 


[00:04:25] Cody: Yeah. So you got the parable of the soils, you got, you know, Paul talking about the milk and solid food. 


[00:04:34] Gina: Yeah. Sorry about that. 


[00:04:35] Cody: That's why you need to study your Bible so you know what she's talking about. 


[00:04:40] Ben: Well, yeah, but Gina, you did mention, you didn't start trying to learn Hebrew culture first or Jewish culture or anything about Judaism first. You started reading the Bible first, right? 


[00:04:51] Gina: I started allowing my pastor to tell me what the Bible said. 


[00:04:56] And then I went into a couple of different Bible studies with that pastor. And we went line by line, and Mark was the first one. And that was really my first exposure to a Bible study. Back then, I didn't do it how I do it now. 


[00:05:10] Ben: Well, yeah, so if you had to go back and do it again, hypothetically, like someone's in your shoes and is just coming into it, what would you advise somebody just getting into it? 


[00:05:20] Because we've already gone into reading the Bible, but how would you suggest someone start studying? Setting aside hermeneutics just for a second, Mm hmm. The starting point for study, would you say read the Bible first or study and read at the same time? 


[00:05:32] Gina: I would say you're not going to have success studying the Bible without wise counsel. 


[00:05:38] So you have to have somebody that's able to kind of guide you because if you, if you read the Bible. And you're like, I was, you're going to make everything emotional and you're going to take it like personal and it's not all personal and it's not all literal and it's not all about you. So like you have to have somebody who's, who's willing to kind of push you in that, because as a new believer, it's very easy to like misunderstand. 


[00:06:04] And so I, I don't know, I think it's, you have to have. People around you who really do know how to read the Bible whether it's like a friend or a spouse or whatever you have to have somebody that can kind of push you outside of your understanding because what you glean from the Bible the very first time that you read it isn't probably actually the realistic meaning of what the Bible says. 


[00:06:28] Cody: I would agree with that, and one of the first things they covered in the hermeneutics class at Moody was kind of what outside factors influence this, and the first thing that you need to welcome in is obviously the Holy Spirit, um, just to help you with those types of interpretations and how you should read the Bible. 


[00:06:51] But community was another one, and that's community that is teaching you, so who is discipling you or at least talking to you about this. But later on in life, community is more than that, it's where you're teaching as well. But those were kind of the, the first main factors in, in the hermeneutical processes, the illumination of scripture and welcoming in the Holy Spirit to help with interpretation. 


[00:07:16] Gina: I mean, you could have 10 different people in a room reading Jeremiah 29 11 and it means something different to each one of them and it doesn't even actually mean what the Bible means that it means. So without context and a teachable spirit and wise counsel, you're never really going to get the most out of it. 


[00:07:32] Cody: How would you recommend people find wise counsel? Do you think they should look in their local church? Because if you look for wise counsel of the people who use Jeremiah 29 11 for the prosperity gospel, that wouldn't be wise counsel. So how would somebody who doesn't know what wise counsel looks like in a biblical, like, scholarly form. 


[00:07:58] Ben: Well, real quick, before we go any further, there are probably going to be people who hear you quoting the, the chapter verse from Jeremiah and not know what it's about. So would you mind expounding a little bit on what you're talking about? 


[00:08:09] Gina: Well, the first says, for I know the plans I have for you, plans to prosper you and not harm you. 


[00:08:15] And that verse is very popular in the prosperity gospel you. It gives this like false illusion of God wanting to, you know, rain down money on people or secure financial security. 


[00:08:28] Ben: So that's the prosperity gospel. 


[00:08:29] Gina: Yeah. 


[00:08:30] Ben: It's the idea that God wants to give you material wealth and material goods. And if you just let him do it, then he's going to make you wealthy beyond your wildest dreams. 


[00:08:40] That's what he wants for you. 


[00:08:41] Gina: Right. And then you get a private jet and a Range Rover and a 500 t shirt. 


[00:08:46] Ben: It's 


[00:08:46] Gina: part of the package. 


[00:08:48] Ben: So that is a very good example. How would you find your The right person to speak into your life, specifically about chapters and verses like that, where people will come into your life and say, No, that doesn't mean something that you would expect it to mean. 


[00:09:01] It means that God wants to give you everything. He wants to make you super wealthy. He wants to give you power and influence and everything that you've ever dreamed of. Forget all the people who've died in poverty in Christianity. Forget all but one of the disciples. Who died horrible, gruesome deaths and forget about John, who probably died in exile of old age, like forget all that God actually wants to make you rich. 


[00:09:22] Gina: I mean, okay. So first of all, you have to be aware of your own emotional and financial and just interpersonal standing. So if you're in a situation where you're struggling financially and you've gone into a church because. you think, okay, this is my last attempt. I don't know what else to do. God help me. 


[00:09:47] Um, and then you hear Jeremiah 29, 11, and you're like, really? Wow. Like, I know so many people who have done that. And then God has not made them rich. And they're like, well, God must not love me. So you have to be aware of like the heart that you're receiving things in, because if you don't acknowledge, like I'm struggling or I'm sad or whatever, then You're not going to be receiving the word the way that you're supposed to. 


[00:10:12] You're going to interpret it through a lens that is absolutely not what God is intending. And so I think being aware of your mindset, first of all, is very important, but I think also if you're in a church that is telling you that God wants you to be rich, you also need to know that. You know, God says you can't love him and money. 


[00:10:30] So it is very contradictory, but seeking wise counsel, you know, we could get into a discussion about denominations and how they all believe different things. And you're going to get, you know, 10 different churches with 10 different interpretations. But honestly, I think that seeking wise counsel requires. 


[00:10:50] Having discernment and prayer. You cannot just like lay your pearls before swine. You need to guard yourself You need to protect your heart, but you also do need somebody that's ahead of you So a good tell for somebody that's like a mature Christian would be somebody that understands spiritual disciplines Um, somebody who understands Bible study outside of just reading some book that a pastor wrote and calling it a Bible study. 


[00:11:15] There's a lot of different good signs. The first person that I met that I knew was really a mature Christian was somebody who wrote down her prayers. And then like read back on them to see where God answered them and journaled about it. She read her Bible and her Bible was full of sticky notes and writing and highlights. 


[00:11:36] And you could tell that she had spent a lot of time really understanding what God was talking about. She used different hermeneutical methods, like using, um, the interlinear Bibles and the blue letter Bible and the concordance. And she was just an encyclopedia of knowledge. And she was not a scholar. She wasn't a theologian. 


[00:11:56] She was just a really humble, sweet, older lady that took me under her wing. So I think, you know, you have to look for red flags. Red flags would be somebody who has a Bible that's never been touched or somebody that relies on the Bible app instead of a paper Bible. Like there's a lot of, a lot of red flags. 


[00:12:12] I don't know if that answers your question. 


[00:12:14] Cody: What would you say? Like, how would you go about trying to think about yourself in it as a new Christian? I know. That's probably harder for us, but 


[00:12:23] Ben: yeah, it's tougher for me because I've never been in that position. Like I've been a Christian essentially my whole life. 


[00:12:29] I can't remember a time where I wasn't, but what I would recommend, it can be very tough when you're a brand new Christian to find somebody and know that they know what they're talking about. You could even be listening to us and think these guys definitely know what they're talking about. We don't know everything but there are certain Christian authors. 


[00:12:48] Who've written about a lot of the subjects that you're going to question and most of these guys are well known throughout all denominations Whether you're Catholic or Protestant or Greek Orthodox Everybody knows them and loves them and like we've referenced C. S. Lewis a whole bunch of times and there are other authors I can't think off the top of my head. 


[00:13:05] I mentioned Nabeel all the time. I mentioned Dr. David Wood and then there are pastors who are actually very well accepted. Guys like Dan Plourd and Mike Winger and And you may not agree with them on everything, and you shouldn't. But I think it's helpful to take in the perspectives of a bunch of different well known and well respected Christian men, who are respected throughout all the denominations, and take their perspectives, compare them to one another, see where they line up. 


[00:13:30] And then see where they differ. So, in answer to the first question, should you study the Bible at the same time you're reading it? In a sense, yes. I don't think you'll go so deep into the hermeneutical side of things, or at least I don't know that you should. There are some people who are very intellectually stimulated, like, you know, Cody and I, and we really love the analytical side of things. 


[00:13:51] But for the people who aren't quite that, And I think that's most people. 


[00:13:54] Gina: Well, I'm more relational. So you're very analytical. I'm more relational. 


[00:13:58] Ben: So even with something like that, for just a kind of broad net to try to throw out to everybody, like there are the additional authors outside of the Bible who can give you some very pre foundational material, like mere Christianity is one of those things that everyone is told to read. 


[00:14:14] And that is pre foundational stuff. That is C. S. Lewis looking at, okay, what can we discern about God before we even look at the And so through that, you can get a foundation on which you can build the foundation through which you can do a hermeneutical analysis of the Bible. 


[00:14:31] Gina: And I think it's worth remembering, no matter what stage you're in in your walk, like, every single person in the world is flawed and has sinned. 


[00:14:39] So like if you're putting somebody on a pedestal that wrote a book or gave a sermon that you really liked, um, just remember that they may not have ended well, or they may have been controversial for whatever reason, and you're not necessarily going to agree with everything they say, and you're not probably supposed to agree with everything they say or do. 


[00:14:59] So it's like, you know, you can be a diehard, fan of, you know, Wesley, and then also really like stuff that is about Calvin. And that doesn't make you a horrible person or confused. It just means that you're very well rounded in your education as a Christian. And that's okay. 


[00:15:16] Cody: I mean, it's like Anything you want to know, different viewpoints. 


[00:15:20] If you're only consuming people who think like you, then you're not gonna grow very much in your walk or your, um, journey. And that's how it is. Like if, if you play sports at the same level that you currently are, you're not gonna grow at all. And unless you're pushing your. 


[00:15:38] Gina: That's why you took ballroom dancing, right? 


[00:15:42] You can't you can dance 


[00:15:43] Ben: in three quarter time you can do the waltz the foxtrot Tell me you can do salsa salsa 


[00:15:51] But you you mentioned earlier Gina about starting with milk before solid food. And I think that is an important thing to remember. You're not expected to jump into biblical study immediately going, okay, I need to learn biblical Greek, or I need to learn Aramaic or biblical Hebrew. 


[00:16:09] Like, you're not expected to do all of that. The first thing you need to know is the firm foundation. You have to have a reason for your faith. And there's a reason why we spent the last. I don't know, eight, nine, ten episodes establishing the central assumptions that we have. Going into it, you do need to have a grasp of those five assumptions as a Christian. 


[00:16:29] You need to know why you believe God exists. You need to know why you believe that He's good. You do need to know why you believe that He loves you. You do need to know why you believe that Jesus Christ came and died for your sins. And you do need to know why you even bother with the Bible to begin with. 


[00:16:47] Once you have answers to all of those five questions, you're actually in a pretty good spot to start diving deeper. See, that's what I would say. 


[00:16:55] Gina: No, I agree. 


[00:16:56] Cody: No, yeah, that's, that's very good. I was gonna ask you, do you find that there's a difference between Bible study and devotion time? 


[00:17:04] Ben: Uh, yeah, yeah, actually, I would say so. 


[00:17:07] It may be a fine line. I know I mention Nabeel all the time, but there was the point where he was becoming a Christian and he was reading through Matthew. And he was having, essentially, a conversation with God through the book of Matthew, where, I've mentioned it a thousand times, but it's like he was saying that, if I convert to Christianity, it'll hurt my parents. 


[00:17:25] And then there's the line in Matthew where Jesus said, whoever loves their mother or father more than me is not worthy of me. And so, you kind of joked before that, you know, the book was written for you. In some ways it is. And God can use the living word, and that's what we call it, to speak directly to you. 


[00:17:40] Now don't assume you can control that. Don't assume that you can demand God speak to you the way he spoke to Nabeel. Don't just open up the Bible and say whatever it is I see, that's what God is telling me right now. There was a time where I tried to do that, too. It doesn't work. Like, God is not a slot machine. 


[00:17:56] He's not a vending machine. You can't just make demands of Him and then expect those demands to be met. But if you're genuinely calling out to Him and you're spending time in prayer and pouring over His Word, He may actually use parts of the Bible that were written for a very specific purpose for actually a separate purpose. 


[00:18:11] Because, yeah, those things in Matthew weren't written specifically for Nabeel and yet they were. So, I would say when you're taking devotional time versus, like, actually studying the Bible. When you're studying the Bible, you are looking to take the Bible in its full context. Not trying to let God speak to you in a fully unique way, but trying to figure out why the Bible is unique. 


[00:18:34] And you're trying to look at it for what it truly is. So yeah, there is that distinction. And God can still speak to you through the study of the Bible. And there are beautiful things that he can reveal to you about the eternalness of his word and the trustworthiness of what he's passed on to us. That's what I would say. 


[00:18:47] There is a difference, but God can still speak to you through both. 


[00:18:50] Cody: Yep. No, I would agree for sure. What about you? Do you find that you do a devotion and a Bible study, or are they one and the same? 


[00:18:59] Gina: I view devotion time as having the Word of God, the Bible, but also having input either from like a devotional book or app or there's like a specific goal that I have for devotion. 


[00:19:16] It would be like to focus or to pray for something specific, or I'm stressed out and so I'm doing a stress devotion. Like, it's different than studying the Word because the time that I spend studying is my time of getting to know God personally. Like, my time spent on devotion has more to do with my earthly life. 


[00:19:36] Cody: I think that's a good way to put it. 


[00:19:38] Gina: Oh, I had a question. I'm sorry, I don't want to interrupt you. No, you're fine. If you could name some ways, like, like there's lecto divina as one, like, are you aware of other methods that people use to read the Bible? 


[00:19:50] Ben: I think that actually launches really well into hermeneutics itself, because we've kind of danced around it a little bit. 


[00:19:56] But Cody, Gina, you guys actually have a much clearer picture of full hermeneutics than I do. Unfortunately, my method of studying the Bible is kind of scattershot. Like, I'll do my regular reading, and then throughout the day, because I work at home on my computer, I'll just be, you know, marathoning tons of different stuff with no real focus, and there are a bunch of, like, absolutely brilliant people who've done a lot of in depth Bible studies on a lot of different things, and I won't be focused or intentional, really. 


[00:20:21] I'll just be consuming and consuming and consuming, and then I'll sprout it out whenever it's relevant. I don't think that that's the wisest approach. So, how exactly would you do, A hermeneutical study of the Bible. What is that? 


[00:20:32] Cody: So, there's lots of different hermeneutical approaches. And, and like you said, there's lots of, it's, it's basically just a Bible study method, or a stricter process. 


[00:20:42] So, you said Electo Divina, that's, could basically fit into a type of hermeneutic. But, like, our church teaches the SOAP method, which I believe is like Scripture Observation Application and Prayer. And you would go into each verse that you read and like, okay, what does the scripture say? Okay, what is, what am I observing here in this scripture? 


[00:21:02] Okay, how do I apply this scripture to my life? Okay, now I'm going to pray on it. So that would be a very, very basic hermeneutic. The general structure of what they taught at Moody was you start with prayer. You can't. You can't. properly interpret scripture the way that the Holy Spirit or the authors originally intended it if they're not going to be present for that time. 


[00:21:28] So you welcome in the Holy Spirit to help with the interpretation of scripture. Then after that you read everything in a literal approach. So the Bible is generally read literally unless it's clear that it's not, or brings you to a reason not to read it literally. Then you'll get into more of the context of the scripture, like who was it written for, who was it written to, who was it written by, where was it written, what was going on in that culture at that time. 


[00:22:00] And that is a, you know, further step into the hermeneutical process of reading your Bible. 


[00:22:06] Ben: Let's, um, let's rewind a little bit, because you said a few things that we might want to unpack. So there's the point where you talked about how first we address it as literal, and then when we come to a point where it's clear that we shouldn't take it as literal, then you can do a few other things to kind of break it down. 


[00:22:22] So how do you know when something is literal versus when it's meant to be taken as poetic or figurative? 


[00:22:28] Cody: And that's another, inside the hermeneutical process, there's what's called finding out the genre. So, like, historical genre, you can usually, like the genealogies, that's gonna be a historical genre. Or the exodus from Egypt into the promised land, that's gonna be a historical genre. 


[00:22:48] You might have some different genres inside that, but generally historical. Then you have psalms, that's a poetic genre. Then you have stuff like the End of Daniel and Revelations, that's going to be apocalyptic genre, and there's all these different types of genre, and that's going to be a good way to tell you how to view that. 


[00:23:07] If it's a historical genre, you're going to, you're going to be looking at that definitely from a more literal lens, but you know, when you're reading apocalyptic genre, um, John uses a lot of likes, like, you know, it was like. this or it was like that. So that's more of a interpretive process that you have to put into that. 


[00:23:29] Gina: I just wanted to know how you know what genre. Do you just Google it? 


[00:23:32] Cody: I mean, Google can be your friend in that, but you know, if you look at the structure of it, I mean, if genealogy is going to be literal. Well, that, 


[00:23:43] Ben: that one is a bit tough. Yeah, genre is tough. So, I think there are some where it's obvious what kind of genre it is. 


[00:23:50] Like the Psalms, or Proverbs, or Ecclesiastes, or Song of Solomon. I think all of those, it's pretty clear what genre they are supposed to be. But then, there's been kind of a movement that's happened in the past hundred years or so to say that Genesis, while once taken as historical, at the very least up until Abraham, is being taken as figurative or poetry, or it's meant to be some kind of analogy to something. 


[00:24:14] How would you tell if Genesis is supposed to be historical or not? 


[00:24:18] Cody: In Moses writings, what did he write that was not literal? In any other sense. 


[00:24:25] Ben: Well, apparently they think that the first several chapters of Genesis. 


[00:24:30] Cody: Well, so that's why that's one of the processes, like who wrote it. Okay. The first five books of the Bible are Moses. 


[00:24:37] So, what are their other works? So Genesis is the first book of the Bible. It's written by Moses. Okay, what else did Moses write? So he wrote the first five books. So you have Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy, and 


[00:24:53] Gina: Numbers. You did it out of order. Yeah, I did. He saved it 


[00:24:57] Ben: for last because he knows it makes me miffed. 


[00:25:01] Everybody. You task me, sir. I don't appreciate it. 


[00:25:07] Cody: Um, but so you have those and, you know, okay, you can look at his literary style. Like what does Moses write in? Like Jesus spoke in a lot of parables. That would be his kind of teaching style, but what is the writing style of Moses? Does he have a lot of parables? 


[00:25:25] prophetic stuff in his writings. So you got to kind of take it as a whole to, you know, see the arc of each book and, and what that looks like. And, you know, is there a lot of other different types of genres inside of Moses's writings? Generally not. 


[00:25:42] Ben: I do think one of the hang ups, aside from the seeming conflict between Genesis and the scientific community at large, I think there are some people who have hang ups with the fact that Genesis does have more of a poetic sound to it. 


[00:25:57] Like, there's the repeated, and there was evening, and there was morning, the first day, evening and morning, second day, so on and so forth. It does have kind of a poetic sound to it, and then there's a snake that shows up, and it's like, is it a literal snake? And then there are different parts of the Bible where it refers to the snake as the devil. 


[00:26:13] So, there's something that's figurative, unless the devil literally showed up as a snake. And maybe he did, maybe he didn't. So seemingly there are things that are symbolic, and even if you take it as history, we do have a lot of typology, where we say that there are certain things, typology is essentially the idea that there are essentially symbols in the Old Testament that reflect the coming of Christ. 


[00:26:36] So there's the sacrifice of Isaac that Abraham was going to do, and God says, no, I will provide the sacrifice. There are multiple levels to it, but essentially it's the idea that God will sacrifice his own child. Abraham does not have to sacrifice his. And there's a lot of that kind of thing. That's typology. 


[00:26:53] It's a representation, not always just of Christ. There's, I think in Isaiah, there's reference to the king of Tyre that may also be a reference to the devil. We're not sure. But. Yeah, so, it's tough looking at Genesis, because you're right, there is a lot in Genesis that seems to indicate that it is historical, and I think that's why generally people will say, okay, Abraham, at the very least, from then on, it's historical. 


[00:27:17] I do have to take the pretty firm stance that Genesis is definitely meant to be taken historically. Aside from the fact that only in the last hundred years have we decided to make it not literal, and there are some exceptions. I think there were, there was like one guy who said, no, God just made everything in one day. 


[00:27:33] Oh gosh, yeah. I forget, I forget who, was that Augustine? I can't remember. I 


[00:27:39] Cody: don't think it was Augustine, but it was one of those, somebody you wouldn't think. 


[00:27:44] Ben: Yeah, it was, it was weird. It's one of those guys who you feel like he'd know better. And I say know better, like he, he's done more for Christianity than I have. 


[00:27:51] But he wanted 


[00:27:52] Gina: to make a name for himself, you guys. 


[00:27:54] Ben: He just wanted to throw out something edgy there. I guess all, all publicity is good 


[00:27:59] Cody: publicity. 


[00:28:00] Ben: But aside from the fact that. Most all Jews and all Christians up until you know the last hundred years all agreed that it was historical There's also the idea that there's the genealogy that's included in Genesis and you're told The father and the son and the father and the son. 


[00:28:17] And not only are you told that you're told how long they lived and how old they were when they had their son who carried on the family name. And so there have been attempts to explain that saying that the number of years that they lived was symbolic, but that doesn't really make a lot of sense. 


[00:28:34] because you see that there's a change in the number of years that people live after the flood. And even when you get to Moses, Moses lived 120 years, which is, you know, pretty sprightly, pretty old. 


[00:28:46] Cody: Especially for their medical advancements back then were not, uh, like today's. 


[00:28:51] Ben: No. And I believe Isaac lived to about 200, 200. 


[00:28:54] I'm sorry, folks. I should have really checked this. But the idea is, is that there's a lot of people who lived much longer than the natural human lifespan. And that's something that Genesis says. And you can't just say, well, it's. allegorical and not have a good explanation as to why the numbers of years were given. 


[00:29:10] And you can also have to have a good explanation aside from just saying, well, it's scientific to say that Genesis is not literal, at least up until the point of Abraham. 


[00:29:19] Gina: My favorite thing about the Genesis argument, and pretty much any interpretive argument in scripture, is like, ultimately it doesn't really affect your salvation. 


[00:29:29] Ben: Agreed. 


[00:29:30] Gina: So it's like, when you accept that, and it's like, Ben and I can disagree on how old the earth is, biblically. And yet still come to the same conclusion that we're both going to heaven. And that's, I think what makes these conversations so entertaining and enjoyable is just knowing, like, we may not always agree on these differences. 


[00:29:49] And so like for somebody who's a new Christian, like if your church expects you to say yes, sir, and not ask any questions, that's a cult that you're in. Cause like being able to debate it is one of the most beautiful things about the Bible. And I think it's part of what unifies. God's people is just having these discussions that, um, ultimately draw us closer to him and help us to know him better. 


[00:30:13] So I think it's really fun to study these things and to discuss them, but I also think it needs to be mentioned that like, if you understand your salvation and your relationship with Jesus, it really has no bearing on where you're going. It truly is just like an endeavor to know God better and to know his people better and love them better. 


[00:30:32] Ben: Again, there's a reason that we started the Logic of God series with essential assumptions and not saying, okay, we're going to start at the beginning of the Bible, Genesis, and here's what it means and here's how you need to interpret it. And if you don't, you're a mean, stinky doodoo head and you're definitely not a Christian. 


[00:30:47] No, there are people like, um, Kent Hovine. I do have a lot of respect for him and the work that he did, you know, 20, 30 years ago. And he did at one time, I don't know if he still has this feeling, but he did, you know, State at one point that if you did not believe in a young earth and you were not a Christian And I don't believe that I believe that that's a horrible way to talk to your fellow christian And I don't think that that's a doctrine that you need to believe in order to be saved I think it really is the five core principles You believe God exists, you believe He's good, you believe He loves you, you believe He came in the form of Jesus Christ, and you believe He speaks to us through Scripture. 


[00:31:21] Now obviously that last point is the thing that we're talking about right now, the interpretation and study of Scripture. And there are going to be things that we disagree on because we're all coming into this not just with those five central assumptions, but we're coming into it with additional assumptions on top of that. 


[00:31:36] And we're trying to make all of these assumptions mesh. And that can drastically interfere with your experience when you're studying the Bible, because you're not just looking at everything with pure 100 percent logic. You're bringing your own emotions into it, and sometimes, even if you are looking at it logically, you're coming in with faulty presuppositions that will color the way you're looking at things. 


[00:31:58] And unfortunately, all of us have those. 


[00:32:00] Thank you so much for taking the time to listen to our podcast today. If you liked what you heard, please feel free to subscribe and share and leave a positive review. And if you would like to connect with us on social media, you can do so on Instagram and Facebook at the logic of God. 


[00:32:17] You can also send us an email at main dot the logic of God at gmail. com. Thanks again for listening. We hope you have a great day.

Should We Study the Bible?

[00:00:00] Cody: Hi, thank you for tuning in to the Logic of God podcast, I'm Cody. 


[00:00:08] Gina: I'm Gina. 


[00:00:09] Cody: And I'm Ben. If you're returning, thank you for coming back, and if you are a new guest, welcome. 


[00:00:25] Ben: Before we get into studying the Bible, we do have a lot of people that are interested Newer viewers and listeners who probably don't know anything at all about Bible studying and probably haven't even gone through the Bible once. 


[00:00:37] Gina: I was once that person. I appreciate this. 


[00:00:40] Ben: We've all been there at one time or another we were new to the Bible. 


[00:00:43] So if you're new, where exactly do you begin with just reading the Bible? 


[00:00:48] Gina: Well, you go to church on Sunday and they tell you the Bible. 


[00:00:51] Ben: Oh, thank goodness. 


[00:00:52] Cody: They interpret the Bible for you, in most churches. They don't even read the Bible to you. 


[00:00:57] Gina: Well, the message counts, okay? 


[00:00:59] Cody: But anyway, I always tell people, New Testament, we're Christians, so it's a good place to start. 


[00:01:06] I usually direct them to the Gospel of John, too. It is a good one that is all encompassing, a good gospel. 


[00:01:14] Gina: I'm reading it right now again. I would have to agree. 


[00:01:16] Ben: It is a very good gospel. 


[00:01:18] Cody: You get Christ's divinity in it. You get the more depth of love, I think. The other, the synoptic Gospels are more chronological through the ministry of Jesus, and Matthew has some genealogies, which can be a little bit harder for newer Christians to get through, and John is pretty straightforward, but also entertaining if you've never read the Bible. 


[00:01:40] Ben: And does John have the Beatitudes in it? Because I know that Matthew does. 


[00:01:43] Gina: No. I 


[00:01:44] Cody: don't think John has to be attitudes. 


[00:01:46] Gina: I just read the first 15 chapters and he's at this point going to die, so no. 


[00:01:52] Ben: Yeah, that would be the wrong time to jump back and cover the attitudes. Let's see, so yeah, I agree, I think John does cover a lot of really good stuff. 


[00:01:59] It's tough because all of the Gospels are pretty solid. For sure. And you're right, it is weird because there's a couple Gospels that have the genealogies, and those are really tough to get through, and so it's weird to just say, okay guys, read these Gospels, but just skip past this part because it's not really necessary. 


[00:02:16] I do really like Luke in addition to John. Yeah, because Luke gives a very accurate and detailed account about Jesus's life from his birth to his death And he covers a lot of details that aren't really mentioned in the other Gospels for the most part they all line up So you're going to get a pretty good picture of Jesus's life his teachings his death and his resurrection from all of the Gospels But I do absolutely agree The Gospels are definitely a must read, and you can't really go wrong with Luke or John as your first. 


[00:02:47] Gina: Okay, but I have a question, because we're the logic of God. So isn't it logical to read a book start to finish, guys? Like, you open to the first page, right? As a new believer, that's what I thought. 


[00:03:02] Ben: Well, yeah, so it's not necessarily an illogical thing to say, okay, read the book from start to finish. The trouble with the Bible is that it actually wasn't assembled in chronological order. 


[00:03:12] So there are actually people who've assembled a read the Bible in the year kind of Bible study, and they'll assemble The different parts of the Bible in actual chronological order and we'll cut chapters out and splice them in based on when they would actually have occurred in the chronology and There are some people who find that very edifying I got I got a buddy who's going through that right now and he hasn't read the Bible much So he's having a really good time with it And yeah, I would actually recommend for a lot of newer Christians who maybe don't know a ton about the Bible It is very easy Edifying, because there are even people who've been Christians for a long time, and they don't even realize that the Bible isn't fully chronological. 


[00:03:50] Right. They're like, oh, it begins in Genesis, and it ends in Revelation. Obviously, everything in between, that's the beginning and the end. And I'll be honest, like, I went to a Christian school, and I didn't even realize for a long time that it's not actually fully chronological. So, you can absolutely read it chronologically, but it's not written that way. 


[00:04:09] There's the first five books of the Bible, which is the Torah or the Pentateuch. And those do cover the beginning. But then from there, you get to Joshua, which is technically still in line. And then Judges. Ruth, I think, skips ahead a bit. It's tough to know. I can't remember exactly where Ruth is in the chronology. 


[00:04:28] But then there's 1st and 2nd Samuel, 1st and 2nd Kings, 1st and 2nd Chronicles. 


[00:04:32] Gina: Are you going 


[00:04:32] Ben: to sing the song? No, I'm not going to sing the song. It's a very catchy song, despite the fact that it doesn't rhyme. Laughter But then you get into the prophets, and then, so yeah, there's, the first several books of the Bible are more or less in chronology, with the exception of Job, where Job jumps backwards into Genesis. 


[00:04:50] And then it jumps to Esther, which is during the time of Nebuchadnezzar, or actually, sorry, it's not Nebuchadnezzar, it's Xerxes. Sorry, yeah, I was thinking of the Persians. Yeah, it's Xerxes. I'm sorry guys, sometimes I misspeak and it's horrible. So yeah, there are these different books that jump around at different points with different times, and it doesn't make it clear because These books were written for the people of their time. 


[00:05:12] The first five books supposedly were written by Moses. There are reasons for believing that. It is part of both Jewish and Christian tradition, though not everyone agrees on that. But more or less, it's accepted that it's either Moses who dictated to Joshua, or Moses actually wrote it all himself, with the exception of maybe the end. 


[00:05:29] Cody: Yeah, he couldn't have written about his own 


[00:05:31] Ben: death. A prophet can't possibly know about his own death. But no, it is a reasonable thought that he didn't write the end. Or maybe there were one or two books that he didn't write, and Joshua instead took what he learned from Moses and wrote them. 


[00:05:43] Cody: Yeah. 


[00:05:44] Ben: But, it's important to keep in mind that all of these individual books of the Bible are literally that. 


[00:05:50] They're books. They were written by different authors, often in different languages, sometimes for different audiences, all of them for more or less different purposes. Some of them are historical, some of them are moral tales, some of them are historic moral tales. Jonah is one of those, and it's a very good example. 


[00:06:09] Gina: We just studied the kids, their minds were blown at the end. 


[00:06:13] Cody: Was it a fish or a whale? That was one of the questions Mimi asked. 


[00:06:17] Ben: So yeah, in terms of whether or not it's logical. To read it in the order in which the books are presented. You can do that. 


[00:06:25] Gina: Well, I tried to do that, 


[00:06:27] Ben: but it's tough. 


[00:06:28] Gina: They lost me at Deuteronomy. 


[00:06:30] Ben: And if God help you, if you get to numbers. 


[00:06:33] Cody: And I think the studies that are out, like people who start out with the idea to read the whole Bible cover to cover, I think Leviticus is where most people fall off just cause nobody wants to read about the law. 


[00:06:46] Ben: And it's tough for a lot of people who become Christians and then they jump into the Old Testament and they read a bunch of stuff and they think, Okay, so this is talking about keeping kosher. 


[00:06:55] You can't eat pork, you can't eat bats, you can't eat 


[00:06:58] Gina: Well, and then you don't know, does this apply to me? Do I, like, am I doing it all wrong? 


[00:07:03] Ben: Mm hmm. So yeah, I would recommend, at the very least, you start with the Gospels. And then from there, it's very good to read the Book of Acts. If you want, you could even just read the first four Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, and then move on to Acts, and then from there you have, uh, the epistles, you have, uh, the letters that Paul wrote. 


[00:07:22] Cody: Paul's stuff can be pretty doctrinally heavy. Yeah, it can be tough, I, I don't And it 


[00:07:26] Gina: can get, like, misinterpreted. Paul, 


[00:07:28] Cody: no, never. 


[00:07:30] Ben: Yeah, um I'm just 


[00:07:31] Gina: a clanging gong. 


[00:07:32] Ben: Yeah, in one of Peter's letters, he does specifically say that Paul writes stuff that's hard for people to understand. And I can understand why there are people who say, don't start with Paul's letters. 


[00:07:44] Yeah, I would definitely recommend going through the Gospels and then going through Acts. From there, it's tough to say. It depends on the person and on how much knowledge you're bringing into this. If you are 100 percent sure, Not a clue what's going on. You've never read anything or know anything about the Bible at all. 


[00:08:00] I would still recommend going through the New Testament. I wouldn't recommend getting to Revelation for a while. Not that it's a bad book, not that you shouldn't go through it, but it does tend to scare people and it's tough for them to get through. 


[00:08:13] Cody: And that's one of the ones too, if you start looking for answers, there's just so much bad theology on Revelation. 


[00:08:19] It's, it's easy to get sidetracked and led astray on what the true meaning of it is too. 


[00:08:26] Gina: I would say if you're brand new and you've never opened the Bible before, like it's great to have a starting point, but seek wise counsel, find somebody that you can talk to about and ask questions too, because If you're just reading it and taking it without any context or historical information or like Understanding how it applies to your life. 


[00:08:45] You're doing yourself a disservice. You really do need to Study in community with other believers. 


[00:08:51] Ben: Yeah, which books would you guys say like we have just covered the Gospels and Acts and stuff But which books from both the Old and New Testament would you say are good for beginners who are just starting out in Christianity? 


[00:09:01] Cody: Beginners, the Gospels, Acts, I think is a good one. Both Peter's letters, or epistles, whatever, are pretty good, I think, to cover for beginners. As far as Old Testament goes, I think Genesis is fairly safe. You get a lot of the old, if you grew up in a church at all, you get a lot of the old, like, childhood stories. 


[00:09:22] You hear Abraham, Joseph, a lot of the early fathers of the faith. As far as that Old Testament wise, Jonah's good. 


[00:09:33] Ben: Jonah's a lot of fun. Jonah's good. I would say Proverbs is very good. 


[00:09:38] Cody: Oh yeah, no, the Proverbs is, is great. Um, great wisdom. Joshua 


[00:09:45] Ben: Well, it would be tough to read Joshua without first going through Exodus. 


[00:09:48] Cody: Yeah. 


[00:09:49] Ben: And parts of Deuteronomy. Deuteronomy's a weird book because there are parts of it that are very edifying and have a lot of good info, and then there's parts of it where it's Oh, okay. This is a lot of information. I'm not sure I'm going to ever be able to retain. 


[00:10:01] Cody: Yeah. 


[00:10:02] Ben: Yeah. What do you think, Gina? 


[00:10:04] Gina: I always joke with Cody that I wish that there was like a summer camp Bible school for grownups to go and learn. 


[00:10:12] I don't know. I like what you said about Like, knowing the more, like, child friendly stories from the Bible. And maybe that's cherry picking a little bit, because you would have to jump around in various books, but I do think familiarizing yourself with the stories of, like, the main characters of the Bible could be really helpful, because then when you go to church and you hear your pastors preaching on different people, you'll be able to say, Oh, I know who that is. 


[00:10:38] And, and you'll have some confidence. in the understanding. And as far as New Testament goes, I like the four gospels. I think that's pretty much the go to solid place. I really do like John. I also, when I was a brand new Christian, really enjoyed reading through Peter for some reason. And then for Old Testament, I like the stories, I think they're great, but I really loved psalms. 


[00:11:01] I think that the biggest risk with reading the books of poetry is misinterpreting them. So if you're going to study psalms, I would just recommend that you do through kind of the lens that we're going to talk about tonight, which will help you analyze if it's to you or to a specific person. Because some of the promises that God makes and some of the things that the psalmists write. 


[00:11:21] They are very beautiful, loving things, but they may not always apply to us. I don't know if that answers your question. 


[00:11:30] Cody: It does. Good. And the only book that I think is chronologically important to leave last is Revelation. 


[00:11:36] Ben: Absolutely. 


[00:11:37] Cody: Yeah. 


[00:11:39] Ben: Yeah. And it's not because there's anything embarrassing in there. 


[00:11:42] It's not because it's a bad book. I actually think it's one of the deepest and one of the most important. And that's one of the reasons why you leave it to last, because I've known quite a few people who just get a little bit in, into it, and they were new Christians, and it terrified them. 


[00:11:57] Gina: Or it's sensationalized. 


[00:11:59] Like, people are very attracted to spiritual, supernatural, mystery, like, mysterious things. And I know, personally, like, when people have read Revelation before they're ready, It can lead to a fascination with the demonic and the end of the world and more of the like pop culture ideas about the rapture. 


[00:12:21] Ben: And the Bible interprets the Bible. And Revelation pulls a great deal from different areas in the Bible. It pulls majorly from Isaiah. And it pulls from different parts, even from, like, the Gospels, because it talks about Jesus, and it even pulls from Genesis, where there's reference to symbology with, like, the lamb, and then there's the ram, and there's the seven lampstands, which are a reference to the sevenfold Spirit of God, I believe referenced in Isaiah. 


[00:12:47] The point is, is that Revelation pulls heavily in interpretations from other parts of the Bible, and if you haven't read those, You're not going to understand what's going on, and it's going to feel very mystical. And it's going to feel very mysterious, and you're not really going to know what's going on. 


[00:13:01] Cody: For sure. Yep. 


[00:13:03] Gina: I want to point out, it makes me laugh, because I had no idea that this was an order that the Bible was read in, but alphabetically I've never heard of that in my life. I think it's really funny. 


[00:13:13] Ben: I just threw that in as a joke. There's all kinds of ways that you can read 


[00:13:16] Cody: English alphabetically or Hebrew alphabetically or Greek alphabetic. 


[00:13:22] Ben: Look, alphabetical is alphabetic. 


[00:13:23] Cody: Yeah. 


[00:13:27] Ben: So that, that does lead nicely into the next question. So there are different. Versions of the Bible and we did refer to that in our last episode specifically on scripture, but it's worth touching on here Are there any specific? Translations of the Bible that you would recommend 


[00:13:43] Gina: Yes, I just opened it so that I could tell you the different translations that I use regularly It's not on my list Now the new King James version I use sometimes, but not the old one. 


[00:13:56] I grew up in the Catholic church, like kind of part time. And KJV was what was in my bedroom from like my christening. 


[00:14:05] Cody: You didn't have the Latin wall gate. No, sir. 


[00:14:09] Gina: That sounds vulgar. Um, anyway, um, I, I liked the NIV primarily and that's the, um, So, that was the version that Cody told me to start with when he was discipling me towards Jesus. 


[00:14:22] I also like the ESV, and then when I'm explaining the Bible to my children, or if it's particularly hard to understand, I use the easy to read version. It just dumbs it way down to the point where it's a little bit more digestible. And for me, as a new Christian, that was really helpful. 


[00:14:43] Cody: Yep, I agree. 


[00:14:44] Honestly, for what translation you use, I think it is whatever gets you in the Word of God. I'm not even opposed to the message and passion translations and moderation, as long as you go in knowing those are more of a commentary than they are actual scripture. 


[00:15:01] Gina: And you can run them against each other. 


[00:15:03] Cody: Yep. 


[00:15:04] Gina: Well, not, I don't know how it would go to run the passion against the message, but. I 


[00:15:09] Cody: mean, you should, it's, you know, I think we covered it in our previous episode, the passion and message basically have one person interpreting the message. How they see fit. So it's more of a commentary than it is NIV or ESV. 


[00:15:25] They have a panel of scholars who critique the text and agree on the proper translation and sentence structure from English to Hebrew or vice versa from Hebrew to English and stuff like that. The Message and Passion doesn't really have that much detail into translations as others. So that would be my only hesitation with those. 


[00:15:46] Uh huh. 


[00:15:47] Ben: Yeah, I agree with you guys in that there are a lot of very good translations and ultimately with the exception of one or two which can be potentially iffy, for the most part, most translations will get you 99. 9 percent there and there's just a handful of difficult areas with the exception of certain translations like the version that the Jehovah's Witnesses use that was done by a guy who didn't speak Or read biblical Greek. 


[00:16:15] And he claimed that he was the only person who actually knew how to do it. I knew how to interpret it properly, and when he was questioned on it, he eventually had to admit he had no clue. That's one that's done specifically with an agenda, aside from literally just trying to interpret the Bible from one language to another as best as possible. 


[00:16:34] There are people who will say only KJV, and we touched on this briefly before. The King James Version is not a bad translation of the Bible. I think I gave the impression last time that it's a bad, it's not a bad translation. Uh, it was actually, a lot of effort went into making it a solid translation at the time that it was translated. 


[00:16:55] The trouble is that when you read it with modern eyes, it is a bit of a slog. And there is beauty in the way that it's written. I don't want to make it sound like it's not. Like, it is a very beautifully written text. And I think that there is some edification you can get from reading it. Like, a lot of edification, because it's still a Bible. 


[00:17:12] But I think, for the average common person, you're much better off reading something that you can actually read. Like the NIV. Something that's not going to be full of ists bees. 


[00:17:23] Gina: Yes. 


[00:17:24] Cody: Yeah, the English language has evolved from that being what is commonly spoken. Why not get a Bible that is easier for you to read and understand yourself? 


[00:17:35] I grew up with the KJV, so I'm familiar with it. Sometimes I do like the featheriness of it in certain aspects, but most of the time I don't want to have to interpret what I'm reading. 


[00:17:46] Ben: It does lend a certain kind of authority to what you're saying. It does sound more authoritative. 


[00:17:51] Cody: No, I think that's why people like it so much, is because it sounds fancy. 


[00:17:55] It's like when you're praying, you don't have to use big words, but 


[00:17:59] Ben: Thou hast fairly spake. 


[00:18:00] Cody: Yeah, they sound nice. It makes you sound fancy when you read it. Smarter than you actually are. 


[00:18:06] Gina: Well, I pulled up, I showed Cody when we were in our like leadership college program that we did, one of the things that they showed us was the spectrum of Bible translations and how like it's paraphrased or thought for thought or word for word. 


[00:18:23] And if you are curious on that spectrum, I would encourage that you. Look it up, because it will help you determine when you're comparing versions, which versions will compare the best against one another. 


[00:18:37] Cody: Yeah. And this is just a basic linear graph of like the NASB usually falls highly on the left side of the word for word translation. 


[00:18:48] NIV is usually in the middle of thought for thought, and then the passion version is all the way on the right for paraphrase. So, yeah, what's the, 


[00:18:57] Ben: what's the name of the resource? 


[00:18:58] Gina: It's literally just the Bible translation spectrum. Every like logo software created one, but there's a million different, it's just Google images and you'll see like a rainbow spectrum with all of the different like notable translations of the Bible for Christianity. 


[00:19:14] Ben: Yeah. And that spectrum actually is one of the big reasons why you personally as a believer should actually study the Bible and not just read it. Because it's going to show you, one, the literal translation, word for word. And then there's the different versions that will show you the thought translation. 


[00:19:32] Yeah, studying on your own, trying to collect as many of these resources for yourself. And then, depending on how deep you want to go, even learning the original language yourself, and then reading in the Biblical Greek for the New Testament. Or even the Biblical Hebrew for the Old Testament. That is going to give you an extremely different experience from where you would be if you literally just picked up the NIV and thought, I'm just going to read this and then that's it. 


[00:19:55] Cody: But why do we need to study it versus reading it? What do you think the benefit to deep dive study versus just a novel read through 


[00:20:04] Ben: is? So I've mentioned this specific B attitude before. And it's one that Jordan Peterson has referenced a few times and really likes, and it's one of the best examples I can think of. 


[00:20:18] And there are plenty, but one of the best examples of why you should study and why you should understand the context from the time that it was written. Because there's a point where Christ says in one of the Beatitudes, The meek shall inherit the earth. Modern understanding of the word meek would say, Okay, yes, you're timid, you're shy, you're not sure what you're doing, You don't have any strength of your own, and thus, the weak, essentially, will inherit the earth. 


[00:20:43] And that's not what Christ meant. The term meek, in the original Greek, was much closer to power under control. Or, as Jordan Peterson says, Someone who has a sword and is skilled in its use, but chooses to keep it sheathed. And so when you study the Bible and you learn that's what it means, then suddenly your modern understanding shifts closer to what the original intent was. 


[00:21:06] And when you understand the original intent, you see the real truth behind what is said. Now, it's not that you would have to do that in order to get the general idea of salvation and the general edification from the Bible that you would get by reading it, but you get a thousand times more when you start diving into these things and you find out the context and you find out what Jesus and the various other authors of the different portions of the Bible meant when they said things. 


[00:21:31] Cody: Yeah, and I think it's important to note that you should come at it from a top down approach. We have a tendency in our culture in the U. S. now to cherry pick verses and not look at the contextual surroundings of that. But if you start out from the top down, what I mean by that is you start out a specific book. 


[00:21:52] So if we're starting in John or Luke, you would Focus on John and Luke. Read that through. And then while you're doing your initial read through, you would have a chapter that stuck out to you, and then you would have a specific verse, and then maybe a word in that verse that you would break down like that. 


[00:22:07] Gina: Sounds like a lot of work. 


[00:22:10] Cody: Why would you think that God would want us to put all this work into studying the Bible? Why not just make it super easy and convenient and just open your eyes? Just by reading it know everything that you could possibly know 


[00:22:24] Gina: when we were dating And we were asking each other all those crazy questions out of those books It's the same content like it's the same idea to me. 


[00:22:32] He wants us to know him and like want him more than anything. And yet, we don't. Like, we pursue each other and whatever makes us happy, but we don't actually pursue Him. And the only way to really truly know Him is by studying His Word. Like, the things that He said, He's not sitting across from you talking to you, but it's the collection of everything He ever said and did. 


[00:22:59] So, if you're not investing in that study, you can't possibly truly know who God is. 


[00:23:06] Cody: And there's, uh, I can't recall where it's at. Seek and you will find. There's no seek if you instantly know everything going in. And there's no effort put in. There's no, you have no skin in the game. 


[00:23:19] Ben: So this may sound like a slight digression. 


[00:23:21] Gina: Mm hmm. 


[00:23:22] Ben: But you guys remember the story of Pinocchio that was put out by Disney. Oh yeah. Way back in the day. The, the movie. There's the part in it where Pinocchio is going off to Pleasure Island, and there's all these different attractions, and in the original version, not the more recent update, there's, uh, points where you see kids smoking, and they're drinking beer, and they're playing pool and stuff, and they're doing stuff that pretty much everyone at the time and now would consider to be horrendous and disrespectful, and all of those kids who do that turn into donkeys. 


[00:23:53] And because Pinocchio sees this happening, he realizes that it's not a good idea to be doing what they're doing. And so he doesn't, he partially turns into a donkey, but doesn't fully turn into a donkey. And then all of these kids are sold off into slavery. Now. That's awful. Yeah, it is. Now, is that a lesson? 


[00:24:11] Gina: From Disney? 


[00:24:13] Cody: They don't have any moral values. 


[00:24:16] Ben: The answer is yes, and this is another thing that Dr. Jordan Peterson has talked about. He's gone through the older Disney movies and he's pointed out the fact that these are all fairy tales. These are all moral tales that actually have an enormous amount of depth to them. 


[00:24:30] And there's a reason why all of these different stories have survived for as long as they have. It's because they have depth and these stories don't literally just come out and say, Hey, don't act like a meanie or else bad stuff will happen. That, that, that would be a very easy way to do it. 


[00:24:46] Gina: The donkey thing says a lot. 


[00:24:48] Ben: It does. It says an enormous amount. There's just, there's depth just in the kids turning into donkeys because you know what they're saying. 


[00:24:55] Gina: Yeah. 


[00:24:57] Ben: You're gonna turn into a donkey, you're gonna turn into an ass. You're making an ass of yourself. And if you live your life that way, then there are going to be consequences. 


[00:25:05] And you can't always walk those back. And if you start that way when you're young, it's gonna be much harder to turn from that, and it's almost like it's a permanent thing for you. And so you keep your kids. Trained up in the way they should be just like in Proverbs and that's one of the reasons why the Bible is written the way That it is. 


[00:25:22] It's not the only reason that the Bible is written that way but depth is one of those things that has staying power and it causes our minds to focus more and more on what we're being Told and the stories in the Bible have enormous depth much more than any Disney film or any fairy tale stories ever had And so when you really start reading these stories that depth should coax you in You should be thinking, okay, so what is this telling me? 


[00:25:44] Because there's the surface level. And that's the most incredible thing to me about biblical stories, is there's the surface level 


[00:25:50] Gina: Which is very deep as it is. 


[00:25:51] Ben: Yes. There's the surface level stuff that's being told. There's the stuff that Jesus is telling you. And then there's the second level to it, which is the explanation. 


[00:26:00] But then there's the reason why Jesus was saying it to begin with. I'll give an example. There's a point where Jesus is speaking with some Pharisees and the Pharisees have a plan they're going to trip him up. So they say, okay, Jesus, you're clearly a smart guy. Should we pay taxes to Caesar? And this was a very brilliant trap because no one wanted to pay taxes to Caesar. 


[00:26:21] Caesar was a guy who was basically enslaving the people of Israel. He was a foreign king, a foreign emperor. And if he said, yes, you should pay taxes to Caesar, He's admitting that, yeah, these people who are subjugated and are subjugated by a person with no right to the children of Israel. They should be paying money to this guy. 


[00:26:40] But if he said no, that's rebellion against the Empire. It's a no win situation. And what Jesus says is, give me a coin. They give him a coin and he looks at it and he says, whose face is on this coin? And they say, Caesars, obviously. And he said, well, give to Caesar what's Caesar's and to God what's God's. 


[00:26:56] Now there's the surface level of that, which is, okay, so he just sidestepped an enormously difficult, tense issue with literally one phrase. And he says a lot just in that phrase. Because he's saying, well, this money is Caesar's. Okay, give it back to him. But you also give to God what belongs to him. And there's a ton behind that. 


[00:27:15] There's, okay, so what do you owe God emotionally? What do you owe God spiritually? What do you owe God financially? Whatever that is, give it to him. But there's one additional level under that, that I've heard taught frequently. The follow up question. Whose image is on you? 


[00:27:30] Gina: Boom. We can, we're done, right? 


[00:27:34] Ben: Mic drop. 


[00:27:35] Jesus doesn't ask that follow up question, but it's implicit in the conversation. Whose face is on this coin? Give this coin to whose face it belongs to. You give to God what's God's, so whose face is on you? 


[00:27:48] Cody: There's 


[00:27:49] Ben: an enormous amount of depth just in that one interaction, and there's more depth even than that, that I can't even, like, you could teach an entire series just on that one interaction. 


[00:27:59] But yeah, that's the kind of depth that we're talking about is everywhere in the Bible. And you're not going to get that if you literally just read that story. Just normally. Oh, okay, there was an interaction and that's it. 


[00:28:10] Cody: Jared And on that too, like just in the naming, I think it's from, I wish I had this before starting the episode, but just the names from Adam, I think to Noah is a gospel message in itself. 


[00:28:24] If you look at the name of Adam all the way to Noah, the genealogy, which most people find boring, but if you look up the meaning of the names, it spells out a gospel message. 


[00:28:37] Gina: He is in so many unique details. Can we go over some of the common Bible reading habits of new Christians, and whether they are useful, good, or logical? 


[00:28:47] Cody: Can I ask one more question before? Is it important that we read the Bible? Can I listen to it on audio? 


[00:28:56] Gina: You're going to miss a lot. 


[00:28:58] Cody: Why? 


[00:28:59] Gina: When I, cause like I'll listen to scripture while I'm driving sometimes because I don't want to listen to music or I have a goal for the day. But when I listen to it, I always get distracted and my mind wanders. 


[00:29:13] There's something about being captive by the words on the page as opposed to having it run through another layer of what your mind is already doing. 


[00:29:23] Cody: But we live in this post literate society. One of my favorite apologists or philosophers, whatever you want to call them, John Mark Reynolds calls it the, um, we live in the, thing I'm society where we just got to have this constant hit of basically it's that he doesn't I can't remember what he calls it. 


[00:29:41] It's not dopamine, but we are lazy when it comes to reading because we have all these visual aids now and it, you know, everything's on audio. But how do you, as a new Christian, or, you know, growing up in a post literate society, get into the critical thinking mentality that you need to be to study the Bible rather than just read it? 


[00:30:04] Gina: You invest in a relationship with the Lord. Like, I don't use one form of relational activeness with you, and that's good enough. Like, if you believe in Jesus, that He died for you. He should be worth so much more than just the dopamine hit or whatever. Like, honestly, that would be, to me, an example of somebody who wants the blessing, but they don't actually want the relationship. 


[00:30:32] They don't want to make any changes. That would be the shallow, like, rocky soil Christian that goes to church because they think that it's their last option, rather than going to God because He's their first choice. Maybe that's harsh. 


[00:30:45] Cody: No, I like it. Toughen up, Buttercup. 


[00:30:48] Gina: I mean, really though, like, read a book. 


[00:30:51] Cody: But okay, going further into, now we're living in a culture of AI is becoming more prevalent and thinking for a lot of people and making us even dumber because this is being used to write papers now that even college where you should be critically thinking and processing and going through this stuff on your own, we are now even dumbing ourselves down further. 


[00:31:15] How would you just toughen up and get into it and make yourself a critical thinker? 


[00:31:21] Gina: I think You have to repent and understand that the laziness that you've had in reading the Bible and having a relationship with the triune God, like you were wrong to avoid it, to ignore it, to replace it. And if you, if you're not sorry, And you don't understand that there's something wrong, then you really can't move past step one. 


[00:31:44] I don't know, what do you think, Ben? 


[00:31:46] Ben: Well, going back to whether we should listen to the Bible or read it, I think context actually matters a whole lot there. Like, back when I was working as an industrial electrician, my father and I would be driving a lot of places. And it would be a 20 hour drive, a 17 hour drive to the next job site. 


[00:32:02] And so there were points where we would start playing the Bible on audio, and then we would stop at different points and we would talk about it. And, yeah, I technically could have taken out a Bible and read it as we were traveling, but my dad would still be listening. He literally can't read it as we're driving. 


[00:32:19] So in those instances, we got a whole lot out of the experience by listening to the Bible together, and then stopping and talking. But in those instances, we were legitimately listening to it. And we weren't literally just putting it on as white noise while we talked about other things. We were trying to edify one another as iron sharpens iron, one man sharpens another. 


[00:32:39] When it comes to if you're just sitting alone at home and you're like, Okay, so it's my devotional. I do find a lot of people are taking the convenient approach like you were talking about. They have things to do and they just want to play it in the background as they do something else. And it feels almost like it's a checklist. 


[00:32:57] It's like, okay, I owe God a certain amount of time. So, I will simultaneously give him what he's due while doing other things, and then I don't have to worry about giving him the time that's just for him. What I used to do was both read and listen to the Bible at the same time. I love 


[00:33:15] Gina: doing that. I still do that. 


[00:33:17] Ben: There, there are some people that works really well for, I found that it actually ultimately is just better for me to read it. But for some people, engaging multiple parts of your brain all at the same time is very helpful. Just listening to it in and of itself, I wouldn't say is not a good idea. I think contextually, you have to look at the situation. 


[00:33:34] Cody: Yeah. 


[00:33:35] Ben: And I'm not saying that's what you guys weren't saying. 


[00:33:36] Cody: Would you ever replace physically reading your Bible with just straight listening to it? No. Okay. 


[00:33:43] Ben: Okay. No, I agree that. There is a very important place that actually reading it comes into play. And in part, this goes back to discipline, which we talked about in prayer. 


[00:33:56] There's a certain amount of disciplined response you need to give to the Lord. There are points where you need to be disciplined about prayer, and you don't need to be insanely disciplined. You don't need to dedicate multiple hours, unless that's specifically something that you're led to do. But most people aren't led to spend three hours of their day sitting in kind of a meditative position, and then just praying. 


[00:34:20] Gina: So how much is enough? 


[00:34:22] Ben: Well, for the people who are starting, it's just like with prayer, For reading the Bible, what I would recommend is that at either in the beginning of your day or at the end of your day, I read during the end of my day, you take 15 minutes or maybe that's too much for you. Maybe that's too, too big a hurdle. 


[00:34:39] Find some amount. That you can dedicate that, you know, that, you know, you will do. Don't start with something that you think, Oh, I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm all gung ho for God. I really feel this. Yeah. I, I admire that. But a lot of people Peter out very quickly when, you know, three days in, they're like, Oh great. 


[00:34:55] I have to read my Bible again. And I'm so tired and I just want to go. You don't want it to be that because the enemy is going to pounce on you very quickly. And suddenly once you break the habit, you're not going to continue starting out. It's okay. Just take five minutes. Maybe read one chapter. Yeah. 


[00:35:10] What I do is every night I read three chapters. Sometimes I read more. I very rarely read less. But you take that time and you read. Or you read and you listen. But you take that time and you be serious. You take it seriously. And you dedicate that time just to God. You don't put it in the background and go off and do something else. 


[00:35:28] This is God's time, and it's His time to talk to you. And usually, you want to pair that with prayer. So after you read the Bible, you then pair that with a certain amount of time of prayer. And typically for me, this is a half hour to an hour every night. At certain seasons of my life, it's more. And sometimes if I'm going through Psalms, it's much less, because it's, Oh, okay, three chapters and Psalms. 


[00:35:52] Well, I did that in less than three minutes. But this isn't a competition. This isn't something where I'm actively trying to punish myself. This isn't something you're supposed to suffer through. This is a time where you get to talk to the Creator of all things, who has sent you something in the form of the Bible. 


[00:36:08] And you get to read it. 


[00:36:10] Gina: So what would you say for both of you, your heart posture is when approaching scripture and studying it? 


[00:36:16] Ben: Well, there's the ideal hot posh. Hot posture. Hot pasta. There's the ideal heart posture. And then there's the heart posture that I have often that ultimately isn't helpful. So I will admit there are absolutely times where I, I approach reading the Bible and prayer as, Oh, great. 


[00:36:38] It's the end of the day. I guess I got to do this. And I have to be intentional about getting out of that mentality because we're all going to be there at one time or another. It doesn't matter how long you've been a Christian or how much do you love the Lord? Because the truth is in your own relationships with people you love, it's the same way. 


[00:36:55] Sooner or later, no matter how much you love someone or enjoy spending time with them, there's going to be a point where you're agitated with them or annoyed just because of the situations that you're in life. One of the great things about being intentional about the Bible and whatnot is that this actually gives you training for other parts of your life. 


[00:37:11] Where if you know that about yourself, and you're accustomed to having to get into that headspace, the right headspace of reading the Bible, then you can apply that to your regular relationships. But as far as what the actual right heart posture, the right headspace is, it's, okay, at any time the Lord can tell me something through this. 


[00:37:29] At any time it's, it could be something that actually changes my life. At any time, it could be something that convicts me. At any time, it could be something to encourage me. At any time, it could be something to encourage someone else. And at any time, it could just be a revelation about something that happened in the past. 


[00:37:45] Something that's amazing. Something that's edifying, even if it's not immediately obvious. And so you have to approach reading the Bible with that sense of wonder, that sense of possibility, and that sense of reverence. 


[00:37:56] Gina: What about you? 


[00:37:57] Cody: Similar, you're not always going to have that heart posture. at times, but I think the discipline and pushing through that is important because Paul talks about there's some benefit to physical training, but spiritual training is forever. 


[00:38:15] So if you go in with that mentality that Your training, your relationship and your spiritual well being is just like any other muscle in your body that you have to work on and sometimes it's going to be grueling and sometimes you're just going to hit your PRs and feel great about what you're doing. 


[00:38:33] But the discipline is what matters and that's where the growth and progress comes in. 


[00:38:39] Gina: As your wife. I've noticed that sometimes you get, like, super intense about your studies. Can you, like, speak a little bit about what's happening in your heart and in your head during those times? 


[00:38:53] Cody: Uh, I can't say it's always a healthy mental space. 


[00:38:56] Somebody will say something and you'll be like, oh, I disagree with that, and I'm gonna scour the Bible to prove that person wrong, and that's a terrible heart posture to have, using the Bible as a weapon to Tear people down in there. Theology is not a good position to take. If this was for correcting in a gentle and loving way, that would be different, but with the sole intention of proving yourself right and them wrong, that's not a good posture at all. 


[00:39:21] But then there will be times that I'm on fire for it because it's It's something new. It's like, you'll be reading something and you'll get goosebumps because it's like, Oh, I never noticed that before. Like this is awesome. How did I not see this before? And you'll just want to keep going. And then that's where I like having like Logos and some of these other just commentary sitting on the shelf and see what other scholars thought about these positions and where this scripture connects with other parts of the Bible and get into it that way too. 


[00:39:51] Gina: Sometimes when you get like that. It's like you're chugging water. 


[00:39:56] Cody: Yeah, yeah. Drinking water through a fire hose. 


[00:39:59] Gina: Yeah. It's just interesting. I wanted to ask that question because sometimes, as like a first generation, newer Christian, it was really hard for me to know what I was supposed to be feeling or thinking or what my goal was reading the Bible, so I wanted to hear your perspective because you guys have really solid spiritual disciplines, and I applaud you for that. 


[00:40:23] But I also think it can help others know, like, understand the point because it's not like checking a box. It's not a choice. It's not supposed to be a chore. Yeah. 


[00:40:32] Cody: It's going to be a chore though, like the same thing with loving anybody, you're not going to have the butterfly quote unquote honeymoon phase all the time, and you're not always going to have that relationship with God. 


[00:40:44] Gina: I would argue that being a new Christian, I didn't have the honeymoon feeling until I learned how to study my Bible, because then I was actually understanding things. 


[00:40:55] Cody: Yeah, and I get that, but there's also times and I've gone through seasons where it's like, okay, I can clearly feel God's presence. And like, I feel like I have this fire and purpose that God has given me, but then there's Times where you're like, okay, where did that go? 


[00:41:13] Why am I not waking up at 5 a. m. to read my Bible now? Like why is that? Become an issue or not something that I strive for and you feel guilty about it But you're not always gonna be there and I would say strive to get there But don't be discouraged and just completely drop it because you don't the discipline and consistency in love and in relationships is what makes the difference. 


[00:41:38] Heather 


[00:41:39] Gina: Thank you so much for taking the time to listen to our podcast today. If you liked what you heard, please feel free to subscribe and share and leave a positive review. And if you would like to connect with us on social media, you can do so on Instagram and Facebook at TheLogicofGod. You can also send us an email at main. 


[00:41:58] TheLogicofGod at gmail. com. Thanks again for listening, we hope you have a great day.

God Speaks to Us Through Scripture Part 4

[00:00:00] Cody: Hi, thank you for tuning in to the Logic of God podcast. I'm Cody. 


[00:00:12] Gina: I'm Gina. 


[00:00:13] Ben: And I'm Ben. If you're returning, thank you for coming back and if you are a new guest, welcome. 


[00:00:29] All scripture is God breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness. So that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. That's 2nd Timothy 3. 16 17. 


[00:00:44] Ben: So it looks like actually earlier I was referencing the same verse because I'm a dummy and I don't remember all the verses. 


[00:00:49] But, yeah, even if you don't say that that word is God breathed, if you were to cut that first part out and you read the rest, it is still referencing Scripture as authority. 


[00:00:59] Gina: Right, but I think the biggest, like, argument that people come to me with about God breathed is whether or not the words in the Bible were written by God's hand through a man or written by a man about God. 


[00:01:15] And so I kind of want to know if in that era where scripture was written, God breathed means that God literally breathed the words onto the paper, or if, you know, that's just 


[00:01:28] Ben: Well, from the verses that I quoted earlier, as well as the stuff from the early church fathers, it's pretty clear that they considered scripture to be God breathed, that they considered it to be the literal word of God, and not just something that some teachers taught, because that is the early church fathers. 


[00:01:43] For whatever reason, we decided that there was a cutoff. Just like with the Old Testament, they decided that there was a cutoff. The Apocrypha was written during a time where, in Maccabees, they talk about how, and Josephus talks about how, during that time, God was silent. Why would they talk about God being silent if he's talking all the time, or if he never talked? 


[00:02:02] If they never considered any of those things to be scriptures, why would they bother saying that God was silent? So, at the very least, we know that there is scripture. It's incumbent on us now to find out what is and why, and Now, I do understand the struggle there because, just because something says that it is, there are a lot of people who've claimed that they, that they have scripture. 


[00:02:26] The Jehovah's Witnesses, the Mormons of the world, the Muslims, they all claim that they have something, that have authority that transcends the testament that we've been given. But there are a few practical tests. For one, when you actually read the New Testament, do you get the sense that it's lying to you? 


[00:02:45] Gina: No. 


[00:02:46] Ben: In fact, I don't meet many people who do, and the people who argue with it, typically it's because they don't like what's being said. They feel convicted by it. They feel angry by it. But even if we were to say, okay, we don't really know. We don't really know if all these things were written by Paul. 


[00:03:02] When you read them, do you get the impression that this is something completely made up? When I read, I mean, I talked about this, breastfeeding a person ten times, when you read that stuff, it sounds made up. When you read that the sun sets in a muddy puddle, when you read that a baby is just a blood clot that forms in the back of the base of the mother's spine, when you read all this stuff, it sounds like a guy who's crazy and making it up. 


[00:03:27] When you read the New Testament, it sounds like people who are talking. And that's an important distinction, because yes, there are people who are always talking about things anyway. And when you read things now, there are people who are genuine and talking about various things. But the important thing here is that these people were being killed and hunted down for the things they were talking about. 


[00:03:47] If they were just making it up, why do people make things up? Generally, when you're starting a cult, and let's say that they were trying to start a cult in ancient Palestine. Yeah. And they were trying to expand it out to the whole world for some reason. When you look at most of these people, what Muhammad did, what Joseph Smith did, what a lot of these different people did. 


[00:04:05] They were doing it for money, they were doing it for women, they were doing it for fame. The disciples didn't get any of those things. Paul especially didn't. He gave up his social standing and a significant stipend that would have come with it in order to be an apostle and a disciple of Jesus Christ. 


[00:04:22] And so when you read the things that he's talking about, he sounds like a man who has conviction on these things. Doesn't mean that he's correct. But he has conviction on it. He genuinely believes the things he's saying. And if it's a person who's counterfeiting or doing some kind of weird historical fiction, he's doing a pretty good job of it. 


[00:04:40] Because it still sounds like him and it still sounds authentic. And that form of fiction didn't exist at the time. 


[00:04:47] Gina: Thank you. 


[00:04:48] Ben: No problem. What do you think, Cody? 


[00:04:50] Cody: To go off of what Ben said is a lot of people even today, even if they don't believe in the Bible, will admit that there's a lot of good teaching or a lot of good inspiration or Jesus was a prophet or most people don't reject the ideas of the Bible. 


[00:05:06] Most people affirm that, especially for the time, it was very productive and promoting a much healthier and better lifestyle than what was offered at the time and still today. So it's hard for me to believe that it wouldn't be in some form God breathed at that point. 


[00:05:29] Ben: Yeah, I think ultimately the really big point that we need to hammer home here is It's not the words themselves that save, it's the meaning behind them. 


[00:05:39] If I were to talk to someone specifically about Jesus, and I say, For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, and I go through that whole verse. Or, I go up to a person and I say, Hey, God loves you so much, he sent his son. And if you believe in him, you won't, you won't suffer eternal death, but you will have life forever. 


[00:06:00] I've said the same thing twice. Thanks. I didn't quote the Bible word for word the second time. I abridged it. Is the truth behind those words the same one that saves? Yes. So the question is, is it really important to you that the words be exactly the same as they were when they were first written? Or is it the meaning behind the words that's the important thing? 


[00:06:19] And that wasn't specifically the Gina that's broadcasting it. No, 


[00:06:21] Gina: yeah, well, we have some friends that are like very, when we talk to them about like inerrancy, they get very upset and it's like they've based all of their faith on the foundation of, you know, Biblical inerrancy and the Bible kind of being God instead of God being God. 


[00:06:41] And so, I really like what you just said because if we get obsessive about what version we're reading or like the specific, reciting instead of relationship, I think we kind of missed the point. So my next question is Is inerrancy the same as infallibility? 


[00:07:04] Ben: I suppose it depends on what you mean by both of those words, Adelina. 


[00:07:07] Gina: I have the dictionary definition. Inerrant is containing no error. And infallible is incapable of error. Are they the same? When talking about the Bible. 


[00:07:22] Cody: You would have to define error. Like, like Ben is speaking here. Is it the meaning? Is it the meaning? Is the original meaning still conveyed? 


[00:07:32] Ben: Well, so yeah, I would say, there was someone who once said, The Bible is not inerrant, but it contains no error. 


[00:07:41] And what he meant by that is that there are individual spelling mistakes or errors in the oldest versions. The random guy from the middle of nowhere who wasn't super literate, but he kinda knew Greek, and so he was copying it down as best as he could. When he's copying that down, he's not copying it down perfectly. 


[00:07:59] And you can try to make the argument, okay, well it was Paul's original, or it was Luke's original, or it was Mark's original, Matthew's. Like, whoever wrote the original, uh, That was an errand that contained no spelling errors that contained no punctuation errors. They didn't really have punctuation either, but whatever. 


[00:08:15] Like, there were no actual errors of any kind. I don't know, maybe, but we don't have those. But we have our copies of that. And that's, that relies heavily on the copier. But, I would say very much the same thing. I would say that yes, there could be a spelling error. I found a spelling error once in one of my NIV Bibles like forever ago. 


[00:08:34] I was so excited. I'm like, yay, I'm so smart. I found the spelling error. I found the spelling error and it's so amazing. This guy saw it. This guy saw he was smarter than me, but he didn't know I was going to be reading this. Yeah, I found it one time. Congratulations to me. Does that mean? No, it doesn't mean that the whole Bible has fallen apart because I found a spelling error. 


[00:08:53] The meaning is still there. That's the point. It is not an errant. It contains no error. If it makes a statement of truth, that statement of truth is correct. If it says that something happened, that thing happened, and if it says something about you and about the state of humanity, that thing is true. 


[00:09:09] Cody: The point Gina is making is I know a lot of Christians who hinge their belief on absolutely. 


[00:09:17] Perfect. Like, it's perfect in every way. And they'll get around it, well, okay, this has, you can point out the different grammatical errors, and they'll be like, well, the originals, the autographs don't have any errors at all in them. 


[00:09:33] Ben: It's like, okay, maybe, but that's not what we're reading from today. It's like, sure, you can make the argument that the original originals were so divinely inspired they didn't have any errors at all. 


[00:09:42] We don't know. Maybe. But what we have now is not that. Because what we have now is written in English. 


[00:09:50] Gina: Well, and so like one of my other questions that's tied into this is, can the Bible still have authority while also having errors or the possibility of errors? 


[00:10:02] Ben: Well, so yeah, it does ultimately depend on what you mean by error. 


[00:10:05] So going back to your other question, I would say that the Bible is infallible. Not inerrant. And by not inerrant, I'm specifically talking about spelling mistakes or grammatical mistakes or whatever. Mistakes that ultimately don't really matter. Mistakes that don't take away from the meaning behind the words or the phrases or the sentences. 


[00:10:22] Like I, see, it might, I probably should have said way far back ago, but my feeling on it, biblical inerrancy, is that The original statements that God made to these people who wrote down the Bible are inerrant. They are 100 percent true, regardless of what it is that he said. That those statements were put down accurately by the people who received them. 


[00:10:45] And that meaning is still preserved today, regardless of whether or not you have odd spelling errors or whatever. So that's my feeling on it. 


[00:10:53] Cody: So recently there was for the longest time, I think Luke quoted this city. And for the longest time, nobody believed this city exists. So they believe Luke made an error in that point. 


[00:11:06] And if you died before the discovery of that happening, you died, believing that there was a geographical error or writing like, and again, it's. It's not doctrinal or anything consisting that, but do you think even that error, even if it was true that he misquoted a specific location, would that cause the whole faith to fall apart? 


[00:11:29] Can that be allowed and still have authority? 


[00:11:32] Ben: Well, even not going just with Luke, when you look at 1 and 2 Kings versus 1 and 2 Chronicles, there are points at which the numbers of things don't quite add up. And that's in part because the original written Hebrew didn't have vowels. And so they had to add vowels as time went on. 


[00:11:48] And so certain things kind of were transcribed weirdly, because when you get into thousands versus thousands of thousands, things are kind of touch and go. It's not 100 percent certain what all of the numbers exactly meant. Now, for the most part, they know. And we're pretty certain what they meant. The original things we're supposed to say, but when you read these things, there will be that little B or that little A or whatever, and then you look down in the footnote, and it'll say, it'll say, some people translate this to mean whatever. 


[00:12:16] So, I can't remember the exact examples of that, but I do know that there were a couple of numbered examples, so it's a very similar idea. Does the exact number of chariots that Solomon had If it turns out that he didn't have quite as many, that it's a thousand less, or a thousand more, or a hundred less, or a hundred more, is that super important? 


[00:12:36] My assertion is that the original thing that was put down was true, and maybe there was a spelling error somewhere in here, something that changes things slightly. And we know that there are spelling errors because we have copies of the different parts of the Bible going back for thousands of years. So we know that at some point, spelling errors happen. 


[00:12:53] But I don't think that spelling errors or transcription errors ultimately take away from the meaning behind the words. 


[00:12:59] Cody: What about, so I think another popular one is the height of Goliath. Yeah. So some texts have him still tall for today's day and age at like 6'11 or something like that. And then some have him, I think, what is it, nine feet or something like that is the general consensus. 


[00:13:20] Does something like that being an error, what if he actually was only six foot 11 at the time, would that be a huge issue or? 


[00:13:29] Ben: Again, the meaning behind that story, when you really look at it. Everyone was terrified of fighting this guy, and they were It's not the number that refers to his height. A lot of the times people will question these things just because they can't possibly imagine it. 


[00:13:42] There's one of his brothers that's referenced later. There's an Egyptian that also was like close to 10 feet tall, who had 10 fingers and 10 toes. I'm sorry, sorry, six fingers on each hand and six toes on each foot, so twelve fingers, twelve toes. It 


[00:13:57] Gina: could just be because brothers and sisters married each other back then, I don't know. 


[00:14:01] Ben: Who knows? But the point is that there's, that line that Goliath specifically had, his family line, was indicated to be pretty exceptional, let's say. It was not normal. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And everyone was terrified of fighting him, and they referenced the the weight of his ma of his armor, they referenced the size of his sword, they referenced the size of his spear. 


[00:14:23] So even if they get the his height slightly off, where he's just really tall for that era, but still within the realms of feasibility, the size of his armor, like the weight of it, and the size of his spear, and the size of his sword, indicate that he's a very h ridiculously strong person. So no, I would say that even if the height is slightly different, no. 


[00:14:42] The meaning is still there. 


[00:14:44] Cody: No. And I absolutely agree with you, but for some of these. Issues, you see a lot of Christians doing mental gymnastics trying to explain infallibility and inerrancy as absolute perfection versus just accepting that there could be different errors in text, but the meaning behind it is still 100 percent truth. 


[00:15:08] Ben: Yeah. And even if we grant that there's the occasional spelling error that we know that the stuff has been preserved absurdly well. Beyond what any other book that I've seen so far in history has been able to be preserved as. With the number of copies that we have, and the state of the copies, and the fact that they were so far spread for so long, and yet there weren't hardly any dramatic, in fact, there weren't really any dramatic changes between them. 


[00:15:33] Cody: Yeah. And the inaccuracies are drastically outweighed by what has been found and authenticated and verified. Like, so the inaccuracies that are available, it's a verification of what it says and what is actually there is much outweighs those. 


[00:15:55] Gina: Well, I have two more questions. 


[00:15:57] Cody: Go for it. 


[00:15:58] Gina: Okay, so this stood out to me as kind of an interesting aspect of inerrancy because the 1978 Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy was supposed to be a response to non literal interpretations of the Bible. 


[00:16:15] So, if 1, 000 years to mankind is like a day to God, can we accept that all schools Scripture is at its literal face value, or does the issue of inerrancy lie within non literal interpretations of Scripture? So basically, if we believe in like a seven day creation or a non seven day creation, does it impact the truthfulness of Scripture? 


[00:16:41] Ben: Well, do you want to tackle this one first or should I? 


[00:16:43] Cody: When you get into the creation story, it's hard to use that text to verify the other 'cause they outline one day as a day a day. So that that's a little bit more difficult. Do 


[00:16:56] Ben: I think the general idea is that because we can interpret some things as metaphorical or non-literal, how much of the Bible should we interpret at face value and how much of it should we say is meant to be poetry or metaphor? 


[00:17:09] Cody: Yeah. What is allegory and what's literal? 


[00:17:12] Ben: Well. There are parts of the Bible where it's very clear that it's not meant to be taken literal. We are not literal salt, but we are called the salt of the earth. We're not a candle under a basket. God doesn't transform us into a candle and then someone doesn't put a basket over us. 


[00:17:27] And there are parts where Jesus will use things like exaggeration. He says, whoever doesn't hate their mother or father. He doesn't, the conscription of Jesus is not to literally hate. He's essentially saying that you do have to act in such a way that it seems as if you hate this person. It, it, with, with what we were talking about earlier, who, if you love your mother or your father or your sister or your brother more than me, you are not worthy of me. 


[00:17:52] If you live your life pursuing Jesus, you're going to do things that seem cold. Like, let's say that there's a whole bunch of people who get really angry at us for doing a podcast, and we do, we say, state something that we believe to be 100 percent true and backed by the Bible. And people get angry at us, and then they come and they try to destroy this home or something. 


[00:18:12] If you were to continue on doing this, and telling people what you genuinely believe, that would seem heartless, because you're putting, you're putting your wife, you're putting your husband, you're putting your children in harm's way by talking. And all you have to do to keep them out of harm's way is to not talk. 


[00:18:29] To not say what you believe. But God help you if you don't. God help you if you don't speak your, what you genuinely believe. God help you if you, we are compelled to do it. That's what Jesus is saying. You are going to be compelled to speak the truth. And in doing so, you're going to do things that will seem to be heartless. 


[00:18:47] Putting God before your family will seem heartless to the world, but it's what we have to do. So I do think that there are a lot of the stuff where people are talking about metaphor, like, I know that, let me see. Genesis is actually just a metaphor, you see, and it's obvious, and I don't know why it is, that so many people don't believe that it's all metaphorical and poetic. 


[00:19:08] You see, it's very simple. You see, all the ages that were given are actually representative. And there was a lot of that. And they do use that verse specifically that you quoted, Gina, the a thousand years are like a day. They say, well, it's, it's all, it all means it's all, as long as it means something, it has to be meaningful. 


[00:19:28] It's all very meaningful. More often than not, the Bible actually makes it pretty clear if what you're reading is meant to be taken literal or not. And there's some of it that's actually lost in the translation to English. I can't remember who it is exactly, but there was actually a Hebraist who set up a very complicated program specifically to see how much of Genesis could possibly be construed as poetic, because there are certain tenses, certain conjugations, certain words that are used in a poetic sense, specifically dedicated for that, and certain column structures that are set up specifically for poetry, which we don't have in English, but it's the, it was the, the practice of the Jewish writers at the time. 


[00:20:11] And that was to make it abundantly clear what you're doing is poetic. And when he set up his program specifically to search for all the different conjugations and all of the different words and ists and whatnot that you would use specifically. For a poetic language is basically none of that found in Genesis. 


[00:20:28] And even if you weren't going to go that crazy and do an alphanumerical investigation analysis into the Bible, what you can do is you can say, okay, so how exactly is this written? And you actually read it. And when you read the Old Testament, Specifically Genesis, the Genesis account we'll go with. There is a lot of it that does seem poetic. 


[00:20:48] It does seem like it's got a style to it, a rhythm to it. And there was evening and there was morning and there was evening and there was morning. It's almost a mystical quality. But as you go through it, you see that there are very specific details that are given. You're given the age at which Adam had his first son. 


[00:21:05] And you're given the age at which his next son was born. The one that wasn't able, had his son. And you're given the, like, yeah, the age at which Cain had children, but also the age at which Seth had kids. Going all the way down, you have the list of the Patriarchs. When they were born, the age at which they had children, the age at which they died. 


[00:21:25] And, it's very specific, down to the year, for both. And you're given measurements for things. You're given the measurements of the Ark. You're given the number of animals that were put on, more or less. It's not as if they give us the specific number of species that were put on, but you're given a rough idea of how many animals were put on and you were given the size of the Ark and where exactly it was. 


[00:21:47] You're told where it took off. 


[00:21:49] Cody: It's in Kentucky. 


[00:21:50] Ben: Yes, they did build it. 


[00:21:52] Cody: Ken Ham is Noah? 


[00:21:54] Ben: I don't think he used the royal cubit. Yeah. Bruin, get Dr. Ham with me on the phone this instant. I will, I will chew his ear off, sir. I will give him an earful. Not using the royal cubit. What's wrong with him? 


[00:22:09] Preposterous. Preposterous, I say! I'm going to build an ark specifically to compete. It shall be in Florida, and it shall be on the water. Not building an ark on the water. What's wrong with you, Dr. Ham? Dr. Ham. But, sorry doctor, if you end up listening to this, I don't know why you would, but if you end up listening to this, we love you, it's okay. 


[00:22:29] Gina: We love your arc. 


[00:22:30] Ben: We love your arc, and you do a lot of good work. But, a lot of the times when you see the stuff that people are trying to dismantle as poetry, They're trying to diminish it, because they're trying to make it fit within the box that they've created, rather than trying to orient themselves around the things that are written. 


[00:22:48] I don't think it's nearly as much of a mystery as a lot of people try to make it out to be. I do think it's actually pretty clear most of the time. That said, there are some times where it's going to be a little bit ambiguous. The Book of Job, for instance. We're not certain if that's meant to be history or not. 


[00:23:04] It does seem like they lean towards that being history, but we're not a hundred percent sure. I 


[00:23:09] Cody: mean, maybe, isn't it in the poetry books are listed in the poetry books. It is written 


[00:23:16] Ben: in the writings, in the talk. It's still considered scripture, the que. So the meaning behind it is still true, and I agree with that. 


[00:23:23] The meaning behind it, no matter whether or not it's literal or not. It is true, but it's a good example. Yeah. But it's still surrounded by other books like Esther that are, I mean, yeah, Esther is definitely something that happened. It's treated as history. They have Purim specifically celebrating it. But yeah, the point is that there are instances where there's some question. 


[00:23:44] But even in those instances, like, for the most part, we know what the Bible is saying as history. And if you don't trust it to be history, then fine. That doesn't change the fact that it's stating it as history. 


[00:23:56] Gina: So, is understanding the Bible as literal or metaphorical a contingency of salvation? 


[00:24:07] Ben: No. 


[00:24:08] Gina: What about belief in the doctrine of biblical inerrancy? 


[00:24:12] Ben: No. That's probably going to ruffle some feathers there, and to be fair, I'm open to having my mind changed on that, I really am. But, I don't think Like, first off, if a person is like, yes, for the most part, I do believe in everything that the Bible says, but I'm just not 100 percent sure that all of it has been perfectly preserved. 


[00:24:33] Is God going to send a person to hell for that? No, I don't think so. And that would technically be someone doubting inerrancy. If you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and you believe in your heart, God will raise him. God raised him from the dead. You shall be saved. I don't believe also that God is going to throw someone in hell because when you get up to heaven, he's going to say, Hey, Did I do it in six days? 


[00:24:56] How many days did I do it? I think this is something that reasonable people can dispute. I think Dr. William Lane Craig and Dr. John Lennox are both very godly men. And they've done so much for the faith. And they've dedicated their lives to God. And they love the Lord with all their hearts. But they believe that Genesis is not literal. 


[00:25:16] Okay, like, this is something we can talk about. And they have their reasons for it. I I, for the life of me, I don't understand some of Lennox's reasoning behind some of it. But I get it. I get why they have the feelings that they do, because they're men surrounded by academia and they think that they, that there's stuff that is unquestionably true in the scientific community and they're trying to reconcile what they know to be true in the Bible. 


[00:25:39] And they're saying, well, as long as the meaning is still preserved and the meaning is what's important, assuming that the meaning is actually still saved if you say that it's not literal. No, I think we all are wrong about individual pieces of doctrine. I guarantee you all three of us are wrong about individual pieces of doctrine. 


[00:26:00] Guaranteed. 100%. And seriously, if you guys think that we're wrong about something, please let us know. I guarantee you there's plenty of um, actually's in the, that we're going to get. Actually, there's only 22 books in, in, in, in, uh, Talaq, not 24. I know you said both 22 and 24, it's definitely 22, because you don't know what you're talking about. 


[00:26:22] I guarantee we're going to get something. 


[00:26:23] Gina: Also, don't take our word for it. 


[00:26:25] Ben: No, please, don't take our word for it. We're sitting here talking off the cuff, it's very conversational, and we do that intentionally. We're going to get things wrong, and we do hope that you guys call us out on the things that we do get wrong. 


[00:26:37] Gina: And gals. 


[00:26:38] Ben: We 


[00:26:39] Gina: have a seat at the table, Ben. 


[00:26:41] Ben: Fine. I'll allow it. But the Gospel of 


[00:26:45] Cody: Thomas says that Jesus will change you to a man. Praise the Lord! So you can make an intent. I did not 


[00:26:53] Gina: expect you to say that. 


[00:26:55] Ben: Gospel of Thomas for the win. 


[00:26:57] Gina: Didn't he also describe Jesus as a baby with birds or something? 


[00:27:01] Ben: Like murdering them. 


[00:27:03] Lots of, lots of wonderful things, Thomas. Thank you so much. We were all so bored with our initial stories about Jesus. We're getting so tired of it. You really spice things up, buddy. 


[00:27:15] Gina: There's gonna be someone like me listening that's like, what's the gospel of Thomas? I'm missing something. 


[00:27:20] Cody: The gospel of Thomas is heresy, so just don't worry about it. 


[00:27:25] Throwing that out 


[00:27:25] Gina: there. Just throw it in the trash. 


[00:27:28] Ben: As well as the gospel of Judas. And Mary Magdalene. There we go. I saw three ships come sailing in. But yeah, just to bring us back. Now, I don't think you have to have 100 percent correct theology. If you believe that, then there's only going to be a handful of people you're going to meet in heaven. 


[00:27:45] Because if your denomination that you happen to belong to is the one denomination that happens to have everything correct, you're going to be very lonely in heaven. It's you and your church, and maybe your dog. 


[00:27:55] Cody: But Joe at church, I don't know if he's coming. 


[00:27:57] Ben: I don't, God bless him, but I don't think he's got the right theology. 


[00:28:01] Cody: He raises his hand when we sing, I don't know if that's allowed. 


[00:28:05] Ben: Anything higher than hip high ain't gonna fly. You keep those hands down. 


[00:28:11] Gina: We don't do that here. 


[00:28:12] Ben: Yeah, but what do you guys think? 


[00:28:14] Gina: I think one of the most beautiful things about the Christian faith is the fact that we can sit down and disagree and have a discussion. 


[00:28:20] I've read so many different books on women's ministry, some which believe women should absolutely not be pastors, and some that believe that women should be elders. And we're not. Whether or not I agree with any of those things is irrelevant because I've learned so much from those teachers. They are highly educated. 


[00:28:37] They are just like really wise people. Even if their doctrine or philosophy or interpretation is a little bit funky, I still love learning from them because I get to see the other side. And if we don't, as a culture, practice critical thinking more, then we're failing ourselves. We're missing so much of the richness that God has for us. 


[00:28:57] If I were to sit here and blindly say the Bible is It's completely inerrant, and I'm just living on this word, and I don't even really know what it means, and what the history of this doctrine is. I'm kind of blindly going into something that, like, Cody has this saying he says all the time, like, anti intellectualism is anti Christian. 


[00:29:17] If I'm not going to study it, and I'm just going to, like, adopt it, then, like, why? 


[00:29:23] Ben: What do you think, Cody? No, not at all. Preach it, brother. 


[00:29:28] Cody: No, not at all. Another thing that comes into this is if you think the Bible is the answer to everything in this life, which I think the Bible answers that question as there is mystery that is left to God. 


[00:29:41] So it is not going to be 100 percent figured out in this life, even if we could, because there's mysteries that we're not even going to be able to know. So If knowing everything and accepting that the Bible knows everything, or teaches you everything, 


[00:30:04] Gina: The Bible is not God. 


[00:30:06] Cody: It is not. And that, that is one of my problems with some of the biblical inerrancy doctrine that is taught, is it raises the Bible to the third figure in the Trinity, and most of the time replaces. 


[00:30:24] The Holy Spirit, the, it is divinely inspired, but it is not part of the Trinity. 


[00:30:32] Ben: Well, addressing that just a little bit. If, uh, if Gina were to write a letter to somebody, like, she were to have a pen pal in Romania, and she just sends off letters. Bear with me here. If Gina were to have a pen pal in Romania, and she's just sending off letters to this Romanian person, and this Romanian person kind of gets to know Gina through these letters, never actually met her, but is reading the letters, and eventually, after reading these letters, this person is like, You know what? 


[00:30:57] I hate Gina. All that they've gotten of Gina is these letters, but these letters are containing your words. They're containing meaning. They're containing something of you. And so, are they hating the letter, or are they hating you? Because all they've done is read letters. Are they hating the letter, or are they hating you? 


[00:31:14] Gina: This is hard, Ben, because I met my husband on the internet. We wrote each other a lot of letters and decided we loved each other. 


[00:31:22] Ben: Did you love the letters he wrote, or did you love him? 


[00:31:25] Gina: Him, but I understand your argument. 


[00:31:28] Ben: Yeah now to to a degree. I still agree with you. I think that The Bible is not completely good. 


[00:31:35] You can worship the Bible. You can actually worship the church. I think there's a 


[00:31:42] Ben: big thing with a lot of different denominations where there is a dedication to the denomination a dedication to the church itself But not a dedication to Christ And so you can fall in love with the structure of the church. 


[00:31:55] You can fall in love with the history of it. I actually see this a lot with Catholics. I do apologize to any Catholics who are listening to us, but I do see a lot of this. Where they fall in love with the structure, they fall in love with the order, with the music, with the history. And, it's not, God kind of falls to the wayside. 


[00:32:11] And similarly, I do think that it's possible for someone to fall in love with the Bible itself, to fall in love with the words, but to never truly know God, to know the God behind the words. So I do agree with you to an extent. But, I don't think that it's possible to really know God without the Bible. 


[00:32:28] Right. Agreed. No, I agree with that. I think it's an incredibly important tool, and I do think it does contain His words. And if you reject the words, you reject the man. You reject the Almighty. So, I do understand to an extent why we elevate it. In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God, the Word was God. 


[00:32:47] The Word became flesh and dwelt among us. I think, God's words are incredibly important because they represent him and if you do love his words you do love him. But if you fall in love with, I do think this does come down to inerrancy, where people are like, no, it's the individual words. You don't even understand, man, it's the words, man. 


[00:33:09] It's like, the words are perfect, brother, you don't even know, man. I do think there is some of that, and I do think that has led to a lot of bridges being burnt, to a lot of things being said that people regret, and ultimately to a lot of focus in an area that could be better spent into learning what we're supposed to know from the Bible. 


[00:33:32] Trying to discern the meaning, rather than trying to discern whether or not the individual words are perfect. Yeah, 


[00:33:39] Cody: no, that's what I was trying to say. I got you. Yeah, I do. I do think the Bible has very high value 


[00:33:45] Ben: Great that wonderful. Yeah, but Same, are you sure Gina? 


[00:33:50] Gina: Uh huh. 


[00:33:51] Ben: Are you sure 


[00:33:52] Gina: I read it and I love it. 


[00:33:53] Ben: That's 


[00:33:53] Cody: great 


[00:33:55] Gina: So do you want to touch on authority or did we already do that? 


[00:33:58] Cody: I mean, I think just the topics that we, what we covered, the historical backing of it, the, the way that it was canonized, the inspiration behind it all lends to the authority of scripture and why it is authoritative. And any of the points, punctuation errors does not take away from that authority because of the foundation that. 


[00:34:21] That it has that we just discussed. 


[00:34:24] Ben: I do think that there probably is one more question. And this is just something I've thought of that we can end with. 


[00:34:30] Gina: Yeah. 


[00:34:30] Ben: But I do think it is a proper ending. How much weight should it have in your life? 


[00:34:35] Gina: Should what have in your life? 


[00:34:37] Ben: The Word of God, the Bible. How much weight, how much of your life should you base specifically on what you read in the Bible? 


[00:34:45] Gina: I would say that the leadership of the Holy Spirit is an active 24 7 reality for Christians. And that leadership is needed for me to read the Bible and interpret it for myself. And I say that because every time that I read certain books of the Bible, I learn something new. So, without the Holy Spirit, scripture is just paper. 


[00:35:15] I can't really comprehend or change without the intercession of the Holy Spirit. And so, I don't know, it's hard, like, we have, I think I have to, we have to have the Holy Spirit's influence. In order to really comprehend what we're reading. So, I want to base my life and my morals and my values on scripture, but I'm helpless to change or to act it out without the Holy Spirit. 


[00:35:46] Does that make sense? 


[00:35:48] Ben: Well, so, how much, so, assuming you have the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit does show you what's written in the Bible. Are you mainly using the Bible to find the things that the Holy Spirit wants to tell you, or are you searching outside the Bible? Like, how much of your life is spent poring over the Scriptures specifically to find things, versus trying to find new experiences and things that aren't specifically in the Bible, and letting the Holy Spirit teach you through those? 


[00:36:14] Gina: Well, Scripture is a guide for our lives. I believe God's expectation that scripture is what we use to live our lives out as a Christian. I mean, it preserves so many stories that are necessary to our faith, including accepting Jesus as Lord and acknowledging his death and resurrection for the forgiveness of our sins. 


[00:36:32] So like a hundred percent, my life should be based around the Bible, but like without the relationship aspect with God and the Holy Spirit. I'm completely helpless to understand it or implement it. 


[00:36:46] Ben: What do you think, Cody? About how much of your life should be dictated by the Bible? How much of your life should be, like, how much are you drawing from the Bible generally? 


[00:36:56] How much authority does it have over your life? 


[00:36:58] Cody: As far as authority, at the heart of the issue, Or, like, everything is filtered through what I've learned through the Bible. So I'm going to test anything, like you mentioned to her, extra biblical readings and stuff like that, is all going to be filtered through the Bible. 


[00:37:16] And I wouldn't base any of my doctrines outside of what is in the Bible. It can be edifying, but not a basis for doctrine. If that makes sense. Bye bye. But, you know, as far as the definition of canon being like the measuring rod and all of that, like, I do think that's your starting point, what everything should be filtered through. 


[00:37:40] If you are struggling with a certain topic or aspect, you need to test it against what the Bible says. If it's outside the Bible, scripture interprets scripture, so you can use that foundation. But, if you're getting materials outside the Bible, I think that's your starting point. I had 


[00:38:01] Gina: a friend describe the Bible one time as like a colander that you drain pasta in. 


[00:38:06] And like if it's junk it just falls through. So I like that you said that. It's your filter. And my verse for that is Philippians 4, 


[00:38:15] Ben: 8. What does Philippians 4, 8 say? 


[00:38:17] Gina: Like whatever is true and noble and lovely and worthy of praise. Such things. Think 


[00:38:24] Ben: about such things. Yeah. Yeah. 


[00:38:26] Cody: What about you? I agree. I agree. 


[00:38:29] I agree. All of it. 


[00:38:30] Ben: All of it. Whatever you guys said, man. All of that was No, I think you both are absolutely right. I think when you become a Christian and you feel the presence of the Holy Spirit Not everybody does when they first become Christians. But I agree. There is a presence in your life that you start to feel. 


[00:38:49] You start to feel there are things you ought to do. And you're constantly going back to the scripture, or you should be going constantly back to the scripture, to find out what those things are. To find out the reasons behind those things. And, When you trust the scripture completely, and I think one of the reasons inerrancy is such a big thing for so many people is because it's so hard to trust something with that degree of certainty. 


[00:39:14] No matter what your opinion is on inerrancy, you have to trust the Bible 100%. This won't work unless you do. And when you do give yourself wholly over to Christ, and when you truly commit to learning the Bible, learning what it says, using it as the measuring rod for your life and for the other truths that are constantly forcing their way into your life, you're going to find that everything starts to make a lot more sense. 


[00:39:38] And you're going to find that there's a whole lot you need to cut out of your life. And so, there are things outside of the Bible that make their way in, obviously. I mean, not every single movie or book you read is going to be biblical. It's not all going to be filtered through Christianese and have Jesus as the, the goal, the man on the top of the mountain at the end of every story. 


[00:39:59] But, you're going to find that certain things you really enjoyed, certain people you like to be around, suddenly you don't want to be around them or you don't think you should. And so, you're going to find that certain things you really enjoyed, certain people you like to be around, suddenly you don't want to be around them or you don't think you should. 


[00:40:08] And that's because, biblically, there are warnings about being around certain people, about consuming certain things, about being in love with the world a little too much. I think the Bible has immeasurable wisdom when it comes to most subjects. It's not going to teach you literally every single thing possible there is to know. 


[00:40:26] I think Cody's correct. But it gives you the firm foundation from which you build. It gives you a foundation from which you will learn about God. And you will filter other sources through to see if they're true. So, yeah, I think that the Bible has absolute authority over your life. And you shouldn't be looking to your church or to leaders of any kind, including people who claim to represent the Bible specifically. 


[00:40:50] You shouldn't be looking to anything else specifically to control your life, aside from the Bible itself. Because only God's Word can be trusted to do that. Agreed. 


[00:41:02] Cody: Very well said. 


[00:41:03] Ben: Well, you both said it a lot better than me, so. 


[00:41:06] Gina: Yeah. Read your Bible. 


[00:41:08] Ben: That's the sum of it. Just read it. Just read it. It's actually really fun. 


[00:41:12] Gina: Not a book about it. Not someone who claims to be an expert. Not us. Read your Bible. Thank you so much for taking the time to listen to our podcast today. If you liked what you heard, please feel free to subscribe and share and leave a positive review. And if you would like to connect with us on social media, you can do so on Instagram and Facebook at the logic of God. 


[00:41:37] You can also send us an email at main dot the logic of God at gmail. com. Thanks again for listening. We hope you have a great day.

God Speaks to Us Through Scripture Part 3

[00:00:00] Cody: Hi. Thank you for tuning into the Logic of God podcast. I'm Cody. 


[00:00:17] Gina: I'm Gina. 


[00:00:17] Ben: And I'm Ben. If you're returning, thank you for coming back and if you are a new guest, welcome. 


[00:00:40] Gina: I do wanna start this episode just by saying that we all love each other and even if we do not always agree. We still leave these episodes united and friends, so, and also married, me and Cody, so. But I want to start there because it can get heated, and sometimes we may not agree, and sometimes we just want to test each other, but ultimately this is one of those issues that, that we may not agree on, and that's okay. 


[00:01:07] Ben: So what exactly is the doctrine of inerrancy? 


[00:01:11] Cody: When people discuss biblical inerrancy, they're discussing the Chicago document that was signed. So the statement of biblical inerrancy that was, I think it was 1978 that it was decided. So when most churches you see that they affirm biblical inerrancy, they're actually referring back to that original statement that was signed and there's been a couple revisions and updates to it since then. 


[00:01:35] Gina: My understanding is that the 1978 Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy was really a response to non literal interpretations of the Bible from like a more liberal movement. R. C. Sproul was involved with that, I guess. 


[00:01:49] Cody: Liberal doctrine was overtaking America, so they decided to act and that's what came out of it, but with pretty much anything. 


[00:01:57] I think the pendulum swung a little bit further than it needed to in that document. And 


[00:02:02] Ben: well, let's not get too deep into the woods just yet because we haven't actually addressed what it said. So broad strokes, not without going into the nitty gritty, what exactly was the assertion that they made? 


[00:02:14] Misrepresenting it. Yeah. No, 


[00:02:15] Gina: that's okay. So I am using the website defendinginerrency. com and it is a website that features the historical timeline of the debate about the reliability and inerrancy of the Bible. And it is in favor of biblical inerrancy. So in 1977, there was a conference on the authority of scripture at Mount Hermon, California. 


[00:02:40] J. Grimstead and R. C. Spruill recruited John Gerstner first, J. I. Packard second, Norman Geisler third, and Greg Banson fourth, and it would form the core of what would grow into the ICBI, and it was here that they laid plans to establish the ICBI. And then in 1978 they held the ICBI Council on Biblical Inerrancy. 


[00:03:06] So the Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy, CSBI, was produced at an International Summit Conference of Evangelical Leaders in Chicago of 1978. And their statement says, we affirm that the Holy Scriptures are to be received as the authoritative word of God. We deny that the scriptures receive their authority from the church, tradition, or any human source. 


[00:03:33] We affirm that the scriptures are the supreme written norm by which God binds the conscience and that the authority of the church is subordinate to that of scripture. We deny that church creeds, councils, or declarations have authority greater than or equal to the authority of the Bible. We affirm that the written word in its entirety is revelation given by God. 


[00:03:55] We deny that the Bible is merely a witness to revelation or only becomes revelation in encounter or depends on the responses of men for its validity. We affirm that God who made mankind in his image has used language as a means of revelation. We deny that human language is so limited by our creatureliness that it is rendered inadequate as a vehicle for divine revelation. 


[00:04:18] We further deny that the corruption of human culture and language through sin has thwarted God's work of inspiration. We affirm that God's revelation within the Holy Scriptures was progressive. We deny that later revelation, which may fulfill earlier revelation, ever corrects or contradicts it. We further deny that any normative revelation has been given since the completion of the New Testament writing. 


[00:04:42] We affirm that the whole of Scripture and all of its parts, down to the very words of the original, were given by divine inspiration. We deny that the inspiration of Scripture can rightly be affirmed of the whole without the parts or some parts but not the whole. We affirm that inspiration, was the work in which God, by His Spirit, through human writers, gave us His Word. 


[00:05:03] The origin of scripture is divine. The mode of divine inspiration remains largely a mystery to us. We deny that inspiration can be reduced to human insight or to heightened states of consciousness of any kind. Should I continue? 


[00:05:17] Ben: I think we're pretty good. 


[00:05:19] Gina: Yeah. 


[00:05:19] Ben: So yeah, the gist of it is that God revealed certain information to people. 


[00:05:25] The people wrote it down. They wrote it down exactly the way that God revealed it to them, without any error, without any inconsistency, without fail. Almost as if God had possessed them, and they put everything down exactly the way that he told them to. And that, as it is, is exactly scripture. It is exactly the way that God said it. 


[00:05:44] It's that way forever, and it hasn't changed at all, and Like, for the most part, everything that you've read, Gina, I actually agree with. There's one or two points, though, that have been a bit contentious. And it's the idea that it's down to the words themselves. That the exact words have been exactly preserved in exactly the way that they were revealed. 


[00:06:06] And it's the word, because it gives a bit of, a bit of holy reverence to the exact words themselves. And this has actually been Something that's been debated quite a bit over the years. And it's not just in Christianity that this is the case. The translation of the Tanakh and the Apocrypha specifically, along with, I think, maybe a couple other things, but I can't remember exactly. 


[00:06:30] But essentially those writings into Greek from Hebrew was specifically put off for so long because there was the concern, okay, well this was revealed to us in Hebrew, in these languages. And it may be a sin, it may be a horrendous error for us to translate them because there's going to be some things that are lost in translation. 


[00:06:49] We're going to have to think very hard about how it is we want to address this. But eventually, because the practice of speaking Hebrew was dying out, they were like, okay, well, So, soon, there are not going to be that many people who can actually read this, so we're going to translate it into Greek, so that at the very least, the meaning is carried on. 


[00:07:06] So, you can see, already, without going into the argumentation, there's some issue with looking at the words themselves as holy, as the important thing. Because if you do, you run into an issue very similar to what the Muslims have, where they It's not the meaning behind the words, it's the words themselves. 


[00:07:23] And so, if you don't learn Biblical Greek, then you're not going to actually know what the true scripture is. You can't truly, accurately represent it because it's not the word that God presented. It's not the meaning behind the words, it's the words themselves. And also, you can't have translations, and you can't have different kinds of translations. 


[00:07:40] So you could, arguably, have a direct English translation, where you have specific words in Greek, And then, okay, so this word in Greek roughly would translate to this phrase in English, and literally. So you're not conjugating, you're not going, okay, this is what it would mean if I were to say it in English. 


[00:07:59] No, you're going, okay, this is directly what this would translate to in English, and it's not going to make any sense. But that's what you do because the words themselves are important. We have different types of translations of the Bible. So we have like the KJV, it was one of the, not the first translation of the Bible, but it was one of the most widely accepted, one of the more widely accepted ones fairly early on. 


[00:08:18] And then we have the NIV, and we have the NASVB, and HIJK element. Like we got a ton of different Bible versions out here. But the reason we do is in part because The KJV is tough for people to read. It's got the ye olde English in it, and it's a bit tough, but there are people who will say that you need to read the original KJV or nothing. 


[00:08:40] If you're gonna quote, quote from the KJV or nothing. Because they hold very much to this feeling of, okay, it's the closest thing to the original, it's one of the oldest translations, therefore it's the right one. Rather than the meaning behind the words and whether or not a translation of the Bible accurately reflects the meaning of the words, It doesn't matter. 


[00:08:57] As long as it's close to literal word for word, or it's farther back and so closer in time, then we're good. So yeah, I'd be curious to hear, before I go too much farther into my feelings about this, what are your guys feelings on inerrancies? 


[00:09:12] Cody: No, I think that covers it and I think it is one of those things that people don't study the true definition or put too much time into what they mean when they say the Bible is inerrant because the first time anybody from an atheistic or different viewpoint poses attacks or questions of the faith, usually it is around scripture and it's inerrancy and you can easily put out mistakes that were either in translation or grammatical errors from scribal errors or additions that they've made, as well as just some places that translations kind of just miss the mark on even portraying the appropriate terms. 


[00:09:54] I can't think of any off the top of my head right now, but Just had this conversation with a KJV only person who admitted that it's hard and confusing at times, but still recommends everybody reads out of that one because we didn't have a good English translation until the mid to late 1600s. 


[00:10:15] Interesting. 


[00:10:16] Ben: Well, what do you think Gina? 


[00:10:19] Gina: I kind of intentionally am keeping myself in the realm of answering, I don't know what I believe specifically, because I believe that the Bible is morally perfect. I don't believe that it has been corrupted in the sense of like God's meaning or intended meaning was messed with. 


[00:10:40] But I also know how old the Bible is. And I struggle a little bit with some of the ways that it was canonized. And so, 


[00:10:49] Ben: well, what specifically, what issues do you have about the way it was canonized? 


[00:10:53] Gina: I have some issues with people deciding when, like you have the book of Enoch, it's mentioned multiple times. 


[00:11:00] in scripture, but we don't have it in the Bible. And there's different people in the Bible that talk about books that we don't have in our Bible. And so I do struggle with that a little bit. And I'll admit I haven't explored the book of Enoch because I'm not sure how I feel about that. And that's a whole other issue, but I just struggle a little bit. 


[00:11:17] And there's like old wives tales, like, well, King James Jesus changed the guy's name to James in the Bible, and I don't know, I struggle with some of those stories because then, if that, if the Bible really is truly inerrant, then how is it possible that a king changed somebody's name in the Bible? And at that point, I would consider that an error. 


[00:11:37] Ben: Well, first off, is Jesus's name Jesus? No. What is his name? 


[00:11:42] Gina: Yeshua. 


[00:11:43] Ben: There we go. We've changed his name. 


[00:11:46] Gina: Yeah. 


[00:11:46] Ben: Would you consider that to be a biblical error? 


[00:11:49] Gina: I, like I said, it's morally perfect, but. 


[00:11:53] Ben: I think we need to establish exactly what we mean by an error or by something that's misleading. 


[00:11:58] Gina: Right. 


[00:11:59] Ben: So, for instance, I believe that if you call on the name of Jesus, you will be saved. 


[00:12:04] Now, that's not the name that he has in Hebrew. It would be pronounced Yeshua. But when you call on the name of Jesus, Jesus knows who you're talking about. And his name is pronounced differently all across the 
world. 


[00:12:17] Ben: And he's actually represented. It's, uh, there's a song that says the children in each different place will see the baby's Jesus face like theirs, but touched with heavenly grace and filled with holy light. 


[00:12:26] And And I don't think you need to see him exactly the way that he was. People see him as part of them. And that's a beautiful thing. If you were talking about the boy who was born in 1st century Palestine, who grew up and sacrificed his life to save yours. I don't think God is going to send you to hell over pronunciation. 


[00:12:45] Gina: No, but there's a difference between language translation for Jesus name and a king deciding that he was so vain he wanted to put his name in the Bible. 


[00:12:54] Ben: Well, and that's assuming that's a correct story. Right, yeah. 


[00:12:56] Gina: And there's no way to prove that. 


[00:12:58] Ben: We don't have to go so far out of the weeds yet. Let's first focus on a couple of different objections that people frequently bring up. 


[00:13:05] And I think this is something Cody can probably help me with. So, Cody, let's do a little bit of role play real quick. 


[00:13:11] Cody: Yes. 


[00:13:11] Ben: All right. I will, I will pretend I'm an atheist coming to you, and I will present you with a very common argument than an atheist would do, being very pleased with himself because he knows this. 


[00:13:21] So, Cody, do you believe that the Bible is inerrant? 


[00:13:24] Cody: Yes. 


[00:13:25] Ben: Well, what if I were to tell you I can prove right now that it isn't? 


[00:13:30] Cody: Really? 


[00:13:31] Ben: Yes. You see, how many words do you think are in the New Testament? 


[00:13:35] Cody: Words? I do not know how many words. About 


[00:13:38] Ben: 180, 000, give or take. The Bible was written a long time ago, New Testament specifically, about 2, 000 years ago, roughly. 


[00:13:46] So about how many words do you think are off? How many errors per word do you think there would be? 


[00:13:53] Cody: Thousands. Millions, even. 


[00:13:55] Ben: Oh, well that's good. I don't know how, why you would think that it's inerrant at that point, but I'll tell you about 400, 000 variances. 


[00:14:04] Cody: Oh no. I know, your faith has just been destroyed. 


[00:14:07] Ben: There are only 180, 000 words in the Bible. That's close. That's over two per word, roughly. Roughly, if my math is correct. So I'm sorry, Bible's disproved. That's so many variances. 


[00:14:23] Cody: So many variances. 


[00:14:24] Ben: across all these Greek versions of the New Testament writings that we have, starting from roughly the first and second century and going all the way up until after the printing press was invented, because they were still writing by hand at that point. 


[00:14:37] 400, 000 variances. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Your faith is just stupid. 


[00:14:41] Cody: It is. Not. What? It's my turn 


[00:14:45] Ben: to be shocked, what do you mean? I said 400, 000 variants, you're supposed to be crying right now. 


[00:14:51] Cody: Yeah, but how do you think that there would not be any errors as far as punctuation and word variance? Well, so 


[00:14:58] Ben: how many of those 400, 000 are accounted for by just those kinds of variances? 


[00:15:03] Cody: Most of them. 


[00:15:04] Ben: What do you mean most? Like how many? Percentage wise. 


[00:15:07] Cody: 90. At least 


[00:15:09] Ben: a little, a little, actually closer to 99. 


[00:15:11] Cody: 9. Yeah. 


[00:15:14] Ben: So most of those variances actually do come down to the, it's not quite the same because Greek is a different language. But if I were to write down, it was like, I was looking at an apple tree and instead, when someone is listening to me say that they write a apple tree instead. 


[00:15:31] There you go, that's a variance. And that's what most of them effectively are. It's punctuation, it's slight variances by like A versus N, or misspellings, things like that. 


[00:15:41] Cody: Yeah, which I don't even know if you've looked at original Greek text, but it's kind of just all shoved up and together in itself. Yeah, 


[00:15:48] Ben: it is. 


[00:15:49] I don't know how people read Biblical Greek. Most of the people who copied it were just random people who really loved the stuff and they didn't really have many opportunities to get it. And they come across the letter that's been sent to the church like, Holy cow, this is amazing. I'm not going to get another chance to do this. 


[00:16:05] I'm going to write this down as fast as I possibly can. And like, I don't know if all of them were dyslexic or something, but 


[00:16:12] Cody: Oh, it's funny if you look into some of the main translators or scribes, they'll even have opinions about other people's translations in there and kind of take digs at so and so is a little liberal on this text. 


[00:16:26] A 


[00:16:26] Ben: little 


[00:16:27] Cody: bit. 


[00:16:27] Ben: So yeah, as far as initial variance and transmission through time, this actually gives us a lot of confidence in the gospel that we have, because like I mentioned, we do have writings going as far back as second century. Now we don't have full texts. As in, like, full copies of the New Testament. 


[00:16:45] But, we have lots of snippets of individual letters. We have quotations from the early church fathers that we can compare to. And even if we didn't have those, we actually do have a number of fragments, very old fragments, that we have from those churches that wrote at that time. As well as fragments that are compilations, and actually list the various books that they have, or the various letters. 


[00:17:05] I can't remember one particular one which is actually really good, like a lot of Bible nerds were really excited when it was discovered. Was 


[00:17:11] Gina: it the Deuteronomy one last year? 


[00:17:13] Ben: There's the, I don't even know about that one. Oh, it proved that 


[00:17:16] Gina: Israelites could read. 


[00:17:18] Ben: That just tickles me. They could read. Oh, that's just, God bless them. 


[00:17:23] Oh, that's amazing. 


[00:17:24] Cody: They couldn't because they were stupid. Because 


[00:17:28] Ben: all people born prior to 2020 were stupid. 


[00:17:32] Cody: Yeah. 


[00:17:33] Ben: But yeah, so that's the transmission over time. But, all that's kind of moot if we don't have the right books. So, do we have the right books? How did we get the books? And, you kind of alluded to a canonization process. 


[00:17:48] So, a lot of people will say, Well, there was the Council of Nicaea in the year 300, and that happened, and then we got our canon. Because a bunch of people in white hats decided that those were the things we were going to have in our Bible. So, Gina, is that more or less what you're thinking? 


[00:18:05] Gina: Well, no, Cody and I actually studied canonization in school last year. 


[00:18:10] So like we were talked through the process and this was not just a one time, like they all sat down and decided. And I know that this has been reliable for thousands of years, but it was multiple generations of men in white hats deciding what goes in the Bible. No, 


[00:18:26] Ben: it wasn't even that. It's because prior to these, canonization meetings or whatever. 


[00:18:32] Well, first off, I should probably should preface for all of those people who are screening right now that the council of Nicaea had nothing to do with canonization. That that thing came from Dan Brown. And for those of you who don't know, he made that up. Like he completely made that up that council of Nicaea did not address canonization. 


[00:18:49] at all. Like the main thing that the Council of Nicaea addressed was the divinity of Jesus Christ. But that does bring up an interesting point in that it seems like when you look at the earliest church fathers, when you look at the writings of Clement, there seem to be references to scripture. Like we talked about that last week. 


[00:19:07] Canonization hadn't happened yet, but the early church fathers and the disciples themselves and Paul All referenced scripture, as in the New Testament, as in the things they were writing. There wasn't actually a canonization process that was needed. Essentially, the canonization that happened was more a recognizing of what everyone already had recognized. 


[00:19:27] When you look and track the actual compilations of the New Testament, more or less what happened is that there were different groups of people who had access to different writings. So, like, Paul would send off his letters, and then certain people would get those letters. And some people would send those letters to other people, and then they would compile them as best as they could. 


[00:19:46] Which was a very difficult process, because I had to hand write and hand copy everything. And it's a miracle that we actually have the number of copies that we have, and we have the reliability of the transcription from those. Because it is amazing. Legitimately, it is a miracle in and of itself, how well all of this was preserved. 


[00:20:03] But from these different fragments that we have from the time and from the writings of the earliest of the Church Fathers, so we're talking like Polycarp, we're talking Clement of Rome, we're talking Justin Martyr, those guys, when we look at those writings and the things that they reference, we actually have a pretty complete look at the New Testament. 


[00:20:20] We do see that there are certain things that aren't referenced super often. For instance, the book of Revelation is not referenced very often. And the main reason is actually because there were a number of cultists who were kind of taking that and as it turns out, when you write stuff about the end of the world, people kind of go crazy with it. 


[00:20:37] So the church, it's not that it didn't recognize it, it's that they were kind of nervous about talking about it. Churches now that are nervous about talking. I was gonna 


[00:20:45] Gina: say they still are. Yes, we're still 


[00:20:47] Ben: nervous about talking about Revelation. Lord willing, we'll get to that at some point. 


[00:20:50] Gina: I think we're also nervous about talking about Genesis, but that's a whole other thing. 


[00:20:53] Ben: Oh, yeah, I love Genesis. But yeah, so when you look at all that together, actually, the New Testament was more or less compiled within a century. And in fact, well before then. All of the individual books we knew of. Now, there are different things like what you mentioned, specifically the book of Enoch. Now, Just because Jesus references or Jude references a writing that is outside the Bible, it doesn't mean that the entire writing should be biblical. 


[00:21:21] It does mean if, depending on the context, so like if Jesus specifically talks about the devil, Fighting over the body of Moses. If he references that specific story, yeah, absolutely, we can say that specific story more than likely happened. If he were to reference, say, a scientific document, if he were to talk about, oh, well, see, as it says in this specific document, doesn't it say that the moon goes around the earth? 


[00:21:44] So, okay, well, does that mean that the entire scientific document is now scripture? 


[00:21:48] Gina: Well, and that's why for the book of Enoch specifically, I understand why it's not counted as scripture. I've never read it. I've read about it. So like I haven't taken that step, but I do understand that canonization is like basically authenticating things as scripture or not scripture. 


[00:22:08] And that's, that's true. Understandable, but it's still a little confusing when you don't take the time to study the difference between what is scripture and what is not scripture and why somebody in the Bible would mention something that's not also in the Bible that's not also very accessible. So my perspective is more geared towards like people who do not do the level of study that you and Cody do. 


[00:22:30] And even some of the level of study that I do. So I've actually made a list of questions that I think might be useful. So did the apostles know that they were writing scripture when they wrote their letters in the New Testament? 


[00:22:44] Ben: So we actually kind of addressed this in the last episode. And that there are a number of points where Paul, as well as Peter's letter, does specifically state that what he wrote, as well as what the other apostles were writing, are scripture. 


[00:22:58] So yeah, at the very least Paul did, and at the very least Peter did, and that's most of, I mean, that's a lot of it. And as far as the four Gospels are cited as script, like, that's the least controversial thing. Like, everyone's gonna be like, oh yeah, the four Gospels, okay, yeah. 


[00:23:12] Cody: Those were definitely written in a style that was for archive and production. 


[00:23:18] The argument for the letters, maybe, because certain, like, Paul writes specifically to, what was it, Philemon? I don't know. And that's more directly to him, so the argument can be made more for that one, but not his major power punching ones. 


[00:23:35] Ben: And when you look at the adoption of Paul's different letters, I think they specifically split Paul's writings into two separate categories for the life of him. 


[00:23:45] I wish I actually bothered to remember the stuff for these talks that we got. It's like, I know they're coming up, why don't I bother writing anything down? But yeah, there are two separations. Like two separate groups that they put Paul's writings in. So there's, if I remember right, Romans, 1st Thessalonians. 


[00:24:05] Then there's 1st and 2nd Timothy, Titus, and Philemon. So it's the letters to Titus, Philemon, and Timothy are set aside because those are two specific people and not the churches. Which makes sense. However, just because they weren't referenced as often doesn't mean that they were never referenced. And there were a number of compilations that did specifically have those. 


[00:24:25] So, I think it can be safe to say that the early church was like, Okay, we're going to take the stuff that he wrote to the churches generally, and aren't private letters, and we're going to teach that. And then there were other people who were like, Well, yeah, but also his private letters, and those are written with authority as well. 


[00:24:41] and the people who receive them are sharing them with us. And because Paul is writing with authority, and these letters do still have his stamp of authority, and they are teaching doctrinal things, oddly enough still, why don't we include them? And so they did. 


[00:24:56] Gina: So you, it sounds like you would agree that Paul and Peter's awareness of their authority is the equivalent of foreknowledge that they were writing scripture. 


[00:25:07] Okay. Cody, do you agree with that? 


[00:25:10] Cody: Yeah, I mean, I think that's fair. 


[00:25:12] Gina: Okay, so then, my next question is, for the word inspiration, do you believe that the apostles were fully possessed by the Holy Spirit when writing these letters and books? 


[00:25:25] Ben: The question, more or less, were they literally possessed? Were their hands not moving on their own behalf? 


[00:25:30] God literally making it so that each individual word was being written out exactly the way that he wanted it. I don't know that actually has to be the case in order for roughly the same effect to happen. I'll give an example of what I mean. There's a story In, I think, a few of the Gospels, I don't remember which ones all have this. 


[00:25:50] There's a story where the Pharisees attempt to set up a trap, as they often do for Jesus. And they say, okay, there's this woman and she's got a bunch of brothers. She marries the oldest one and then the brother dies. And then she marries the next one, that brother dies. And she marries the next one, that brother dies. 


[00:26:02] Goes all the way down until eventually all the brothers are dead. Now the brothers are all up in heaven and finally the woman dies. Which one is he married to? And he says, you're very gravely mistaken in your reasoning. What does the Lord say? The Lord says, I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob. 


[00:26:18] I am. He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are gravely mistaken. When Jesus references the Old Testament, he does reference it word for word, the way that it's written. And he does reference the actual individual words. Specifically for their meaning. Now, I don't think that the person who wrote the first five books of the Bible was possessed by God to the point where he didn't have control over his own hands. 


[00:26:44] And yet, Jesus specifically mentions the individual words and calls out an individual word, am, as being important. This is something that still works with translation, and it's something where even if you misspell it or you abridge it, It still works, but ultimately, he still chose the specific word. The words mattered to him. 


[00:27:05] The individual words mattered to him. And when you look throughout the New Testament, very much the same thing happens. Now, an interesting thing is that a lot of the times they will abridge, It's actually kind of frustrating at times because then you're like, Oh yeah, they're referencing this part of the Bible. 


[00:27:20] What are you talking about? These are, well, they kind of abridged it a little bit. They kind of just said everything together, or sometimes they'll quote the Septuagint for their individual audiences who only know that, but there are times where they will quote, let's say the Psalms, you will not let your Holy one see decay. 


[00:27:35] It was very important that those words are used because. That's specifically about Jesus, and Jews will argue, well, no, it isn't. It's not at all about Jesus. David was specifically talking about himself. But by the spirit of what's written and by the letter of what is written, you can actually see that it's about Jesus. 


[00:27:51] Because yes, if you look at it, David is writing, yeah, my line is going to continue on. God had promised that my line is going to continue on. And Jesus is the ultimate continuation of David's line. He is the King forever. He will not allow his Holy One to see decay. And, Jesus himself didn't see decay. The spirit and the letter of what was written is fulfilled. 


[00:28:12] Even if you don't think it's a prophecy. Even if you think that David was just talking about himself. The spirit and letter about what David wrote about himself was fulfilled there. If the words aren't God's words, why even bother bringing that up? So, to answer the question, I don't think God possessed these people and forced them to write the words. 


[00:28:31] But God knew what words were going to be written by these people. And so effectively, I think the words matter. 


[00:28:37] Gina: Would you consider biblical inspiration the same as artistic inspiration? No. Okay. Would you say that Noah was inspired to build the Ark in the same way that the apostles were inspired to write? 


[00:28:52] Ben: I mean, in the idea that God revealed something to him. But yeah, I would say that actually, there probably are a number of similarities there deeper than that, because God revealed to him exactly how he was supposed to do it. He was revealed exactly the length. He was revealed exactly the style. And if God hadn't told him the exact way to do it in the exact order, in the exact manner, with the exact construction, then it wouldn't have fallen apart, or the animals would have starved to death, or any number of things would have happened. 


[00:29:17] So yeah, I could say that whether you're writing a book or constructing something that God tells you to build, even the tabernacle itself, everything is meant to be a representation of something that exists. I think the big thing is that when God reveals something to people, there's actually A thousand different layers of meaning in what he's saying. 


[00:29:34] And when you are transcribing that, if God is really talking to you, and if you are really writing down the thing that God said, obviously it's going to be different than if God had literally told it to you directly. But yet, in the same way, we do consider it the same way. It's like when, I know I reference Nabeel all the time, but when Nabeel Qureshi talks about when he was reading Matthew, and he's reading the Beatitudes, And he's almost having a conversation with God where he's like, but my family is going to, I'm going to destroy their hearts. 


[00:30:04] I'm going to completely destroy them. And immediately he reads the part in Matthew where it says, whoever loves their mother or their father more than me is not worthy of me. He's having a conversation with God, literally through the Bible. And God knew that was going to happen. So again, I don't think God possessed a hand and made him write them, but God knew the words that were there. 


[00:30:24] And he uses those words. And he lives in those words. He is the word. He was the word in the beginning. 


[00:30:30] Gina: Thank you. 


[00:30:31] Ben: No problem. Sorry. Cody, what do you think? 


[00:30:34] Cody: Do I think that they were possessed by the Holy Spirit and had no idea what they were doing? No. And I think the way that Paul differentiates himself or what God has said versus what he, his own opinion is. 


[00:30:49] is proof of that. And I believe in it's in Galatians. He also, in multiple places, references his divine commission from Jesus of the road to Damascus incident that he had. And that's really his only, like, face to face inspiration that he got, so do I think that he was possessed? No. But do I think he was commissioned and had the mystery or the scales removed from his eyes more so than most? 


[00:31:21] Yes. 


[00:31:22] Gina: What do you think the involvement of baptism in the Holy Spirit has to do with the authorship of the Bible? Do you think that idea of being baptized in the Holy Spirit is what led to them being spirit filled enough to write scripture, or do you think that it was the other way around and that it was just The way that God planned it and they weren't necessarily possessed but it was just God's inspired word 


[00:31:46] Ben: Six of one half a dozen of the other 


[00:31:48] Gina: okay 


[00:31:49] Ben: I think that God knew what these people were going to write and thus he could trust them to write it And it needed to be correct And he uses the words that were written even today. 


[00:31:58] And I think that's, oddly enough, I think that's the strongest proof for God's authorship in that it can continue to affect people today. And he can speak to people using these words. Now, as far as whether or not someone had to be Specifically anointed with the Holy Spirit, or it's just that God knew what they were going to write. 


[00:32:15] I think it's both. I think he knew what they were going to write, but I do think that simultaneously the people who wrote, especially in the New Testament, it's tougher to argue the Old Testament since there is some argument about who wrote what there, but going with the New Testament and then briefly touching on the Old from what we do know about it. 


[00:32:32] We know that the people who wrote were people filled with the Spirit, and I don't think we would trust it nearly so much if it was people who weren't. I think we know Luke was a constant companion of Paul, and he was a man who was filled with the Spirit, and he loved the Lord, and he loved Paul. And that's why he spent so much time writing the, the, the letter of Luke and the letter of Acts. 


[00:32:52] And as far as Mark, the gospel of Mark, well, Mark wasn't specifically, you A disciple of Christ. He was a disciple of Peter, and he loved Peter and he himself was filled with the spirit. And even if he wasn't, Peter was, and so he took the words that Peter gave and he wrote those down. And you can make an argument about whether or not, okay, so if it's the anointed speaker but not an anointed scribe, does it still count? 


[00:33:14] This is where I say six of one, half a dozen of the other. I don't think that an anointed scribe has to be used. I think that the words themselves, God will still work. 


[00:33:22] Gina: Okay. 


[00:33:23] Ben: Just like, there are people, there's a guy, I think, who worked on the You version, that app. I will. Yeah. I think that guy's actually an atheist. 


[00:33:30] And I know there's at least one Bible app that's actually very successful that was put together a program by an atheist, and it's just because the Bible's the most bought book in the world, so why wouldn't you? I don't think that's suddenly a cursed book or that God's influence has left it. 


[00:33:44] Gina: So I wrote this question, and I'm really curious what your opinion is, but what is the difference between the way God wrote the Ten Commandments and then the authorship of the New Testament? 


[00:33:56] Hmm. 


[00:33:56] Cody: It's a good question, because everybody depicts it being written by God's own finger, versus through prophets or apostles or scribes. It's an interesting question. Well, 


[00:34:10] Ben: one of the interesting things when you look at the Old Testament is that there does seem to be a degree of separation between man and God, and it's constantly being reinforced. 


[00:34:20] That man is sinful and that they're dark and that their every inclination is toward evil and it's that evil that drives them apart and even someone like Moses, like he can't see the face of God. If he sees the face of God, he's going to die. He can see his back. That's about as close as he can get. And he can be in roughly the same room. 


[00:34:37] But even then, like, he fills up so much with the presence of God that when he leaves, no one can look at him. When we get to the New Testament, the veil is torn, and suddenly, the Holy Spirit moves freely throughout, like, that's literally the whole point of the curtain being torn. It's symbolic, but it, the big meaning behind it is that the separation between God and man no longer exists, and His Spirit can fully fill everybody and anybody all the time. 


[00:35:00] Whether or not that happens, it's possible. So, when we get to the writing, it's a very different experience. It's very intimate. It's a father guiding his son's hand. It's a father speaking tenderly to his children. That's very much the feeling that you get, except for certain points, because God's still God. 


[00:35:19] He's unchanging. And when he talks about his justices, justice is thorough. It's complete. And so when you get to certain books like Revelation, it's still terrifying. John himself is terrified at many points. But all the same, it's a very different experience. It's a very intimate experience when you look at it. 


[00:35:36] Gina: So taking it in a different direction, I know that there's 2 Timothy 3. 16 that describes scripture as being God breathed. Are there other areas in the Bible that defend scripture as being God breathed or inspired or infallible or inerrant? 


[00:35:52] Ben: Well the, the one verse that talks about how scripture is useful for instruction is sharp as a double edged sword. 


[00:35:58] That doesn't specifically list it as an errant, but it is setting it aside as something that is powerful. The bigger thing is that people reference the scripture when they are deriving authority in their words. When Jesus is referencing the Old Testament and he's talking to the religious leaders, it's effectively a shut up, this is what it is moment. 


[00:36:15] If scripture is not inherently authoritative, that wouldn't be useful. that wouldn't do anything. People would just say, well, that's your opinion, man. And then they'd move on. But whenever the disciples or whenever Jesus, or whenever anyone specifically quotes scripture, and they, you know, that they're quoting scripture when they say as it is written or for it is written, which is another one of the reasons why the book of Enoch isn't typically considered, but that's a different thing. 


[00:36:41] When they specifically are quoting scripture to people who know scripture. That's when you see them shut up and they're like what like when Jesus gets up and he reads Isaiah And he says today this has been fulfilled in my reading and everyone is sitting there like 


[00:36:54] Cody: what 


[00:36:55] Ben: holy cow They're all dumbstruck. 


[00:36:57] They're all 


[00:37:01] But yeah, even if we didn't have the references to people saying that it is they acted So yeah, I don't know what you're feeling about this, Cody. 


[00:37:10] Cody: It's hard because when those verses were written, I don't know if it was encompassing their own authority. I do think the New Testament and those books do have authority, but I do think they were referring to the Old Testament at the time of writing. 


[00:37:27] As far as the scripture having authority, usually that was a reference back to the Old Testament. At 


[00:37:32] Ben: the very least in the Gospels, though Peter does specifically reference the other writings. And Paul does also reference his other writings, even in Corinthians, which is not contested. So thankfully there's that. 


[00:37:42] Cody: But, overall, yeah, I think, and that's another topic, the authority of Scripture and why we put so much authority in it should probably be at the end of the inerrancy and inspiration talk because I think that is the natural follow up to this conversation. 


[00:38:03] Gina: Thank you so much for taking the time to listen to our podcast today. 


[00:38:07] If you liked what you heard, please feel free to subscribe and share and leave a positive review. And if you would like to connect with us on social media, you can do so on Instagram and Facebook at the Logic of God. You can also send us an email at main dot the Logic of god@gmail.com. Thanks again for listening. 


[00:38:27] We hope you have a great day.

God Speaks to Us Through Scripture Part 2

[00:00:00] Cody: Hi, thank you for tuning in to the Logic of God podcast. I'm Cody. 


[00:00:12] Gina: I'm Gina. 


[00:00:12] Ben: And I'm Ben. If you're returning, thank you for coming back and if you are a new guest, welcome. 


[00:00:33] There's this whole movement. That is gaining a lot of speed to remove Paul completely from canonization, which I don't get in any sense, but it's also not new either. The Gnostics of Paul's time grappled on to a lot of his teaching because, as you read in Peter, His stuff is hard to understand at times, and there is a lot of mystery to it, and so they grappled onto that, and we almost lost a lot of Paul's writings in the early church because this Gnostic movement was using Paul as their ringleader, and I believe it was Polycarp had to come in and defend the case for Paul, so. 


[00:01:10] Ben: Well, a similar argument also can be made from Paul's time, oddly enough. And that when you look at a lot of the letters that Paul wrote, there were a number of different teachings that were coming forward by these super apostles. And there was claims that you needed to be circumcised, that you needed to follow Jewish law to the T. 


[00:01:28] And so you can also make the argument, well, we lost a bunch of doctrine because there were a bunch of people who believed something completely different in the early church. They believed that you needed to be circumcised and that you needed to follow Jewish law. And that it was perfectly okay for you to marry your father's wife. 


[00:01:44] And, like, that was all stuff that Paul was referencing. The reason that we use Paul as a reference to begin with is, one, because both he and Peter and a lot of early church fathers believed that he was authoritative. But also because, when you look at it, he was authoritative. He was specifically approaching a number of different issues that existed at the time. 


[00:02:06] And when we look at these issues, we don't think, well, that's perfectly reasonable that they would believe that. We think, no, it's silly that they would have believed that. It sounds cultish. It sounds like a bunch of cults were starting to try to form out of Christianity. A bunch of people were trying to take it, as we've seen in modern times, and turn it into something that it shouldn't have been. 


[00:02:23] They were trying to say, no, you can follow your heart's desire. You can do the things that you want. Or we're going to pile a whole bunch of extra rules on top of you and make it so that it's impossible for you to follow this new faith if you're a Gentile. 


[00:02:36] Cody: And like, you have a lot of these letters or epistles kind of warning against that type of teaching, or teaching that is for personal gain. 


[00:02:46] Jude, all of Jude, it's short, but it's all, like one chapter, but like, It's all about warning you against these false teachers trying to promote themselves and make a name for themselves and put them on this pedestal of the super apostles like you mentioned. So that was prevalent back then, so why not stick with the people who had Direct interaction either with the disciples themselves or the disciples had direct interaction with Jesus. 


[00:03:16] Ben: So the differences here that we're talking about aren't huge that in the end we've arrived at the same conclusion Which is that we have a bible now And that a lot of what we have in the Bible is reliable, it's true, it's good. And at the very least, when you look at the Old Testament, you say, that's pretty darn solid. 


[00:03:32] And when you look at the New Testament, you say, well, there's some stuff that we disagree on, but for the most part, there's stuff in here that we can point to and say, this is definitely something that is inspired. At the very least, the Gospels, the four Gospels, at least one of the Gospels you can trust. 


[00:03:46] Not to go too far into it, there are a lot of contextual critics. There are a lot of New Testament critics, like Barterman, and I've referenced him a few times, who try to say that there are certain Gospels, we don't know who wrote any of them, because it's not like the authorship was specifically put in them. 


[00:04:02] There's no point where, in Mark's Gospel, it says, Mark, a disciple of Peter, and a servant of our Lord Jesus Christ. Like Paul does, where he's nice enough to say, Paul, an apostle of God and a servant of our Lord Jesus Christ. They just weren't that nice. You know, John didn't decide to say, Hey, this is John writing this. 


[00:04:17] And Luke didn't decide to go, Hey, this is Luke writing this. But we know that they are the writers specifically because the early church mentions this in the first and second century specifically talk about the authorship of these books. And if we're going to hold to any kind of consistent historical analysis that we do for literally everything else, then we do have to say that, yeah, we actually know with greater certainty who wrote these than most other books that are written throughout history. 


[00:04:44] But all that is to say, we do have an agreement that at the very least the Gospels, the message that's put within them that was written by the disciples, and by Luke, and by Mark, is a solid one. That is our firm foundation. And the writings of Paul, even if you don't think those are scriptural, and if you think some of them are corrupted or whatever, those are building off of the foundation that Christ laid. 


[00:05:06] And it's the same thing that we do now, though we don't call it scripture, we don't call it canon. Is that we use the things that are revealed to us either through our personal experience through God directly through people that we know Through great teachers and we compare it to the Gospels. We compare it to the Old Testament We compare it to the wisdom that's been passed on to us And we say does this contradict or does it build on it if it builds on it? 


[00:05:31] We're great. If it doesn't get rid of 


[00:05:34] Cody: it. You say there's lots of disagreement I think we agree on that a lot more than 


[00:05:38] Ben: anything else and that's the important thing So, moving on from that, I think we should also address, why is the Bible split between the Old Testament and New Testament? I think we've kind of covered that. 


[00:05:49] Gina: I have a friend, she became a Christian like two years ago, and she legitimately believed that there were two books, and she was missing one. 


[00:06:01] It was really sweet. And then we had to talk. 


[00:06:05] Ben: God bless her. I think more or less we've covered why we have the Old Testament versus the New Testament, specifically talking about Christ. There's the four gospels, there's the epistles, and then when you have the Old Testament, it's the Tanakh. It's the three different bodies of work that are considered to be scriptural by Jewish tradition. 


[00:06:25] But I think there's another question that that kind of leads into, which is, if we are Christians, why do we even care about the Old Testament? And this is something I've heard a lot, unfortunately, in the modern church. 


[00:06:36] Gina: Oh, it's such a cool, like, if you just read it for the stories, it's so cool. 


[00:06:41] Ben: But it's the history of our, I know, but it's the history 


[00:06:44] Gina: of our world. 


[00:06:45] Like, it's amazing. I love the Old Testament. 


[00:06:47] Ben: It's amazing. It has some of the best stories you will ever find. 


[00:06:51] Gina: Like crazy mind blowing, but like also confirmed to be true by archaeology. And 


[00:06:56] Cody: still being confirmed to this day. I 


[00:06:58] Gina: know. 


[00:06:59] Cody: Absolutely. 


[00:07:00] Gina: I get really excited about that. 


[00:07:02] Cody: Yeah, I've heard this a lot in the modern church of, okay, we need to just sit in the grace of Jesus and just the, we're just going to preach out of the red letter and we're going to just stick in that, and the love and grace. 


[00:07:16] Gina: Well, so many people, like, So, we lead students, and a lot of times the Bibles that they're given is just the New Testament. And it's like you're missing so much, and they have no idea what we're talking about. 


[00:07:30] Ben: Yeah, it's the most basic question, why do we care about this Jesus? Why would we, is he just some dude who appeared at a random time, at a random place, and just Backwoods, middle of nowhere, Middle East, and was just like, Hey, so I'm God. 


[00:07:49] Okay. 


[00:07:50] Gina: Heard that before. 


[00:07:52] Cody: Do you find it a cultural problem though? Because I see the depth of ideals and the Old Testament is a lot harder to grasp. One, just cause the span of time, the culture, the ancient Near East culture, a lot of that is hard for modern Americans to grasp. So, a lot of it is confusing, I think, and intimidating. 


[00:08:15] Do you find that to be the major reason why it's kind of pushed away to the side, Christians don't need it? 


[00:08:22] Ben: Well, I definitely agree it's a cultural thing. And as with so many cultural things, I think it does come from a good place initially. It's a good thing that's been corrupted over time. So, one of the reasons that people will say that the New Testament trumps the Old Testament is, one, because there are certain things that are in the Old Testament we no longer do. 


[00:08:42] Right. 


[00:08:43] Ben: For instance, we don't keep kosher like the Jews do. We're allowed to eat pork. We're allowed to do and eat certain things that are outlined specifically in Levitical law as, don't do this. Don't eat this. Don't drink this. And a lot of people have the question of, okay. Why? 


[00:08:59] Gina: Why doesn't Cody have 75 wives? 


[00:09:02] Ben: Why? Why is Cody not allowed to divorce? And that's another thing, because there are actually some things we're not allowed to do now that we used to be able to do. It is outlined in Levitical law that a man is allowed to divorce his wife, whereas Jesus specifically says you're not. And this is a question that's brought up by the religious leaders of the time because they thought it was kind of strange. 


[00:09:22] Like why are you saying we are not allowed to divorce when it's specifically outlined by Moses? That we're allowed to. And Jesus says this was allowed to you because your hearts were hardened at the time. Which is not a super satisfying answer, but I do think that it's actually an accurate one. I think that there are certain things that were passed on because the Jews were supposed to be separating themselves from the cultures around them. 


[00:09:48] And it's pretty obvious why when you read the stories, because they didn't do that. The laws and rules were put there, the dietary ones especially, were put there to distinguish themselves from the other cultures. It was to make it so that they couldn't intertwine their cultures, their practices, their daily routines. 


[00:10:04] But they did it anyway. They would frequently stray from the things that were taught to them. They didn't eliminate the cultures and peoples that were originally in Canaan, and they allowed them to intermingle and interbreed, and eventually the cultures that were there, and the worships of the Asherahs and the Baals, they came back. 


[00:10:20] And so, frequently, Israel would stray, and then they would come back, and they would stray, and they would come back. And we look at these cycles now as Christians, and so often you think, well, these people are stupid. 


[00:10:30] Cody: We do that today. 


[00:10:31] Ben: We do that today. We're doing that today. 


[00:10:33] Cody: Yep. 


[00:10:34] Ben: You're doing that when you say the Old Testament doesn't matter, because you are missing these specific lessons. 


[00:10:40] But yeah, going back to it, we do point to those things specifically, and we say, No, those don't apply, and we give reasons for why, but it does seem to fly in the face of the idea that scripture can't contradict scripture. Ultimately, it is a fulfillment of the notion that's presented. There were logical reasons for why God told them not to eat things, not to drink things, not to do certain practices, not to eat meat that's been baked in its mother's milk. 


[00:11:05] That was specifically a Canaanite practice. It was a religious practice, and so they were being told not to participate in a religious practice. When Peter received the Revelation, which is what we base this on in the Book of Acts, it's talked about, where he was having a dream where a sheep descended from heaven Every single animal on the planet was on it, and God said, Go, Peter, kill and eat. 


[00:11:24] And he said, No, I'm not going to do anything that will make me unclean. God says, Don't call anything unclean what I have made clean. He's saying that all of creation, and it specifically spells this out in case you missed it in the book of Acts. By this God was saying that all food is kosher. The reason that suddenly there was the change is because now the Jews aren't supposed to be separated from everybody. 


[00:11:47] They aren't supposed to be in this isolated little bubble trying desperately to keep the influence of the rest of the world out. Now, they're supposed to be spreading their influence to the rest of the world. Because they have this gospel, and they can't contain it. You can't keep it in anymore. You've got to God help them if they don't spread it. 


[00:12:04] And so, if you're going to be going out into the rest of the world, can you really expect the rest of the world to obey these rules as well? Now, it's not just for convenience sake. It's because you're not supposed to be trying to keep other people out. So yeah, and it's not that's for everything, because some people try to take that, like I said, this is a corruption of something that is initially true. 


[00:12:27] We say that the New Testament trumps the old, and that there was a revelation specifically pertaining to this, and there was a reason for it. But then there are people who say, well, that also means that homosexuality is not wrong. Well, that means that I can do whatever it is that I want. Because there's grace and forgiveness, and that trumps anything from the Old Testament that says things are wrong. 


[00:12:46] I'm sure you guys have opinions on this. I've been talking for a while, but what do you guys feel about that specifically? 


[00:12:50] Cody: Go read Romans. 


[00:12:55] Ben: Man, you're on it with the one liners today, Cody. 


[00:12:58] Cody: If that's what you think, go read Romans. Let me know if you still have that opinion. 


[00:13:02] Gina: But Romans is contested. I'm kidding. But you keep saying that to him, so I just had to say it to you. 


[00:13:09] Cody: That is not one of Paul's contested letters. 


[00:13:13] Gina: As humans, there, there's always an argument of, like, where we come from. 


[00:13:20] Whether it's the Big Bang or evolving from monkeys or whatever and the book of Genesis Clearly outlines an incredibly beautiful creation story and so even if you exclude the prophecy of Jesus for a minute and you just think about like the questions that can be answered by reading the Old Testament and just like some of the amazing history about the world that has been confirmed It's so reliable and it's so trustworthy for so many different reasons, there's not a lot of question like you guys talked about earlier, and it's just rich in information. 


[00:13:59] And so, I just have a hard time believing that anybody wouldn't see value there because, When I really started reading my Bible, it was my favorite part of my Bible was the Old Testament. Obviously there are parts that are confusing and they go on and on about genealogy and how to build a tabernacle and all of that. 


[00:14:17] But it's actually like really interesting. Like Cody showed me this amazing video. And it goes through, like, the different lineages and how it actually does point to Jesus, and I'll have to, I'll have to I don't remember that one. I have it saved because I send it to people all the time. 


[00:14:32] Ben: Yeah, the, the big thing is the names, the series of names in that genealogy spell out the story of Jesus. 


[00:14:38] And that's something we'll get to, I think, in another time. Yeah. But you're absolutely right. There, there are so many beautiful stories you're missing if you decide you're just gonna pass off the old, I think a lot of people are also doing it because they just don't want to read it. 


[00:14:51] Gina: Well, they think it's, like, boring and irrelevant, and it's not actually irrelevant. 


[00:14:57] Cody: Yeah, and I do think this is more of a, an American cultural mentality, where of this opinion that instant gratification, critical thinking, like, all of this stuff is absent in our culture, right? So if you do wind up with mass genocide in the Old Testament, and you actually have to think through why that makes sense, and that. 


[00:15:19] specific cultural time and era, then you have to work at it. You, you have to do research and study and read about the culture, read about the ancient Near East and why this would be, go read about the worship of Baal and what that culture, what the Canaanite culture demanded of their worship to Baal. And you'll have more of an understanding of why, what was being asked of the Israelites Makes sense. 


[00:15:48] Ben: I think you've really hit the nail on the head there, because there are any number of contributing reasons, I think, to why a lot of Christians would like to just disregard the Old Testament. A really big one is that it's tough to look at the acts of savagery. You look at that and you think, how could that a loving God possibly do any of that? 


[00:16:06] We mentioned this briefly in how God could be good. I do think now would actually be a good time to go a bit more in depth. Because when we look. At the New Testament, you're talking about mercy triumphing over judgment. You're talking about love and grace and mercy, and that's a very comforting, nice feeling. 


[00:16:24] That no matter what you've done, God loves you. God wants you to be in his presence. He wants to bring you in like mother hen and her chicks and just gather you to him and keep you warm and keep you safe. And that's a very different view, seemingly, than what you get from the Old Testament. Amen. However, there are a couple issues with viewing the New Testament in that light. 


[00:16:46] The most obvious one is the Book of Revelation. God is still a God of judgment. He is both parts, equally good and just. In order for there to be justice, there has to be judgment. Now yes, he wants to extend mercy to everyone, but not everyone will accept his mercy, and so what mercy can be extended to those who reject it? 


[00:17:08] There is none. There is only judgment. And so, when you read the book of Revelation, you still see the same God who was in the Old Testament there. 


[00:17:17] Cody: And it's not just the book of Revelation. Absolutely. You'll get instances of this in Jude, Matthew, like, all over New Testament. The judgment aspect is in there too. 


[00:17:27] It's not just this rainbows and butterflies and hunky dory skipping through the field of daisies. 


[00:17:33] Gina: You guys didn't even talk about wrath. 


[00:17:36] Cody: What about it? 


[00:17:37] Gina: Well, God promises his wrath for those who reject him. It's not just judgment. He's not just going to sit there and be like, well, Ben, I asked you to do this and you didn't do it. 


[00:17:46] No, like it's going to be wrath and that's not fun. That's painful. 


[00:17:51] Ben: No. And in fact, we actually see some of that in the early church. There are one or two stories, one that specifically has always stuck out to me. There were a man and his wife who sold a property, kept some of it for themselves because they had the right to, and they came in with some of it, gave it, laid it at the Apostles feet and said, Hey, this is all of the money that we got. 


[00:18:11] Because they were trying to increase their standing with the Church. They wanted to look pious. They wanted to look holy. And the Apostles called them out on it. And they said, Why would you lie in the spirit? Why would you say that you've given us everything? Wasn't it yours to begin with? And immediately, both of them died at separate times, but both of them came in, said the exact same thing, and both of them died. 


[00:18:35] God struck them down. 


[00:18:36] Gina: God gave? The wife, the opportunity to come clean. And she didn't. 


[00:18:40] Ben: Yeah, Anais was the first one to die. He's like, yeah, we gave you everything. He died, and then the guys went out to bury him. His wife walks in, and then they're like, so, is this everything? And she's like, yeah, this is totally everything. 


[00:18:51] It's like, see, why did 


[00:18:53] Gina: Again, and then she drops 


[00:18:54] Ben: dead. Yeah, and then they're like, the guys who just went out to bury your husband are at the door now, and they will bury you. And then she dies. Yeah, does that sound like this fluffy pie in the sky kind of oh, no, there's no judgment ever Type of god that you're told about 


[00:19:09] Cody: no you read the teachings of jesus too, and I don't know the exact numbers, but Hell is taught on a lot more than heaven. 


[00:19:19] And if you know anything about hell, it is not cuddling and Clapping and playing the banjo. Yeah, like it it is Although maybe the banjo is torture. Separation from God that is not depicted as a pleasant experience. No, it isn't. I do hear that all the time and we should admit the, there's the God of the New Testament and the God of the Old Testament. 


[00:19:43] I've heard that a lot and it's No, there's just God. It's the same one, you're just failing to see that. 


[00:19:48] Ben: Yeah, and just as there are examples of God's Wrath and his judgment in the New Testament, though they don't seem to be quite as abundant as his love and his mercy. In the Old Testament, while it seems like there is a lot more examples of his judgment and wrath, there are plenty of examples of the same love and mercy. 


[00:20:08] There's mercy that's given to Cain, a guy who murders his own brother. God gives him time after time, chance after chance, the ability to come clean. Rather than taking his life or making his life hell, He allows him to go live off in the land of Nod. He gives him a mark so that no one will kill him. Why on earth would he do that? 


[00:20:26] Cody: For a guy who murders his own brother. 


[00:20:29] Ben: Sounds pretty darn merciful. 


[00:20:31] Cody: And most cultures of the time, and most, a lot of people even today, like, eye for eye mentality, that's not eye for eye. 


[00:20:39] Gina: Well, I, I wonder about that specific story, and I haven't researched it enough to feel confident. But, I've always wondered if. 


[00:20:48] It was more merciful to kill him than it was to make him go away and labor. 


[00:20:53] Cody: I wouldn't say so, but he went on to make a thriving city. So 


[00:20:58] Ben: Yeah, he had kids. He had a wife. I don't know how many wives if he had multiple, but he did end up with A family and a city and who is Cain's wife? Good question. No, that's a, that's a question specifically for analyzing Genesis. 


[00:21:13] There are a lot of people who wonder if it's history or not, if it's meant to be some kind of allegory or magical poetry that doesn't actually mean anything. We'll get to that, I think, because Genesis definitely deserves its own specific episode. We're 


[00:21:29] Gina: inviting Ken Ham, right? Yeah. We 


[00:21:30] Cody: only if we get one on the other side. 


[00:21:32] Yeah, you better 


[00:21:33] Ben: invite us. We'll do the ARC experience. 


[00:21:39] Gina: We'll live in the ARC. 


[00:21:40] Cody: Only if we catch Bill Nye there at the same time. Going back to it. Getting 


[00:21:46] Ben: back to the purpose of this episode. 


[00:21:47] Cody: Yeah, we covered the different rules. I think we went off a little bit on that one. 


[00:21:52] Ben: So let's quickly cover, is there a specific order that these things should be read in? 


[00:21:57] Because they are out of chronological order. 


[00:22:00] Cody: Some of the prophets are in chronological order. Yes, 


[00:22:03] Ben: you are correct. 


[00:22:04] Cody: But yes, the Bible as a whole is not in chronological order. You can buy Bibles that are in chronological order, but is it important to read it 


[00:22:12] Ben: in that way?

[00:22:13] Ben: Yeah, I guess the question is, what would you guys recommend? 


[00:22:16] Or rather, let's, because I don't think it matters too much what order you read them in. I do think some people recommend that you read the Gospels first, that you get an idea of who Jesus is first. Build a foundation and then go back. Because there's some folks who will start in Genesis, and then, okay, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers. 


[00:22:33] What is this? What is this book? Why am I reading this? I'm bored out of my skull right now. There are numbers in this book. There's so many numbers in the book of Numbers. I actually like the book of Numbers. What is wrong with you? 


[00:22:49] Cody: There's a lot of good stuff in Numbers, but no, so I would agree. The gospel is probably good. 


[00:22:55] Honestly, the New Testament, I think reading that in its entirety before moving on to the Old Testament is good. And then it'll make the second read through of the New Testament open up a lot more because the connections that. The New Testament has to the Old Testament and all of, and I think it's a popular picture going on around right now, they did a huge cross reference of every New Testament verse in scripture to the Old Testament and just makes this amazing rainbow and all that stuff looks pretty. 


[00:23:26] But I think getting the foundation because we live in a post Christ world. You need to get that foundation and understanding of why we are clinging to that hope and faith in that, rather than the history portion of how we got there. But then go back, read the history. 


[00:23:47] Ben: Yeah, I think that's a pretty good recommendation. 


[00:23:49] What about you, Gina? 


[00:23:51] Gina: I'm in agreement, but I would also say that if you've never read the Bible before, especially the New Testament, then you have to know that different authors wrote the same stories sometimes. And so you have different perspectives on one thing that happened with Jesus, and you hear it or read it multiple times. 


[00:24:11] And I didn't understand that when I first started reading my Bible, and I wish somebody had explained that. And then he did explain it, but It made it confusing, because I was like, why is it so repetitive? 


[00:24:24] Cody: Yeah, you have the first three Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, that are synoptic Gospels that kind of basically follow the same timeline. 


[00:24:33] There's slight variances, there's slight more depth in a certain story than others, but for the most part Pretty similar you can track along with each one where they're at and John's a little bit different kind of follows some of that kind Of doesn't it's more his own telling the gospel of John But yeah, I might even start there because after the Gospels you get into a lot more of the heavy doctrinal beliefs of Christianity and that might be a little much for New believers like reading 1st Corinthians or Ephesians Ephesians, 


[00:25:08] Gina: was hard for me as a believer because of the call to like obey your husband like the first explanation that I had of Ephesians was at your cousin's wedding and your grandpa was preaching about how she needed to submit to him and I was like, oh Oh, heck no. 


[00:25:24] And then I caught the bouquet and I was like, this is not happening. 


[00:25:27] Ben: Yeah. Real quick, since you brought that up, I do think that's actually something worth looking at while you've mentioned it. I do understand. It's not quite in line with the general idea of this episode, but you brought up something that I do think a lot of people do struggle with and it, it's. 


[00:25:41] In a sense, it does lend itself to what people think is canonical or scriptural versus what isn't. What's Paul's opinion versus what isn't. And I think there are a lot of women specifically in the church, with good reason, who struggle with what Paul writes. Because it does seem like Paul is taking women and is saying, you are beneath men. 


[00:26:00] Gina: But he's not. 


[00:26:01] Ben: No, he's not. 


[00:26:01] Gina: Yeah. 


[00:26:03] Ben: I don't know if you guys have any input on this that's particularly unique. 


[00:26:06] Gina: I just want to point out that tomorrow's our anniversary. 


[00:26:08] Ben: Congratulations. 


[00:26:10] Gina: I have a lot of opinions on women in the church. And for any women that are listening, because I don't want Anybody to think that this is a male dominated podcast. 


[00:26:20] And I also ask a lot of questions with new believers in mind, but I have done a lot of my own research and I'm actually in seminary. So that's not to toot my own horn. It's just, I kind of know what I believe. And as far as women in the church goes, I think the modern American church has infantilized women to a point where women don't believe that they can be doctrinal powerhouses and they can't say what they know to be true from scripture and study. 


[00:26:45] And I don't even think they're encouraged to study, really. We're given a lot of books written by famous people, but we're not really turned to our Bibles. And I think there's a lot of power in scripture for women. Specifically, women who have pasts. I have a past. I didn't come into my marriage as like this innocent flower that was handed off by her dad. 


[00:27:04] My dad didn't even come to our wedding. So when I think about marriage and when I think about God's plan for me as a woman, I looked to Song of Solomon. There, everybody talks about that book like it's the porno in the Bible, and it's not. It's beautiful and it is erotic, but there's a lot of like, empowerment for women in that book? 


[00:27:25] Coming into marriage, hearing about Proverbs 31 and submitting to your husband is intimidating, but in Song of Songs, you hear, like, this woman is crying out. She's got this dark past. She is a different color than she should be because of all of her labor and toil. And she was not taken care of by her family the way that she should have been, and God accounted for that in Scripture. 


[00:27:47] And the first thing that the husband does is call his wife powerful and then encourage her to go out and deal with the issues that are plaguing her. Like women are empowered in Scripture, especially by their husbands, to deal with issues and to work hard. And just because we're called to respect and obey our husband doesn't mean that we're supposed to be individual from them, as these burdened, silent, non voiced, People that just sit in the background, we're encouraged to have healing and to have opinions and to challenge our husbands when they're not doing the right thing. 


[00:28:20] So, I don't know. That's my little spiel. But I definitely want women to know that there is powerful representation for womanhood and femininity and scripture, and it is not entirely based in honoring and submitting and respecting, although those are important things. That's not the entire identity of women according to the Bible. 


[00:28:39] Cody: There's a lot on that. I hear, I love your take there too, but I also hate hearing guys of they're not loving to their wives or they're not respectful to their wives because they don't submit, or you have this mentality. When that was written, and for some reason, they'll look into that context of how women were property back then, or they'll look at David and Solomon, oh, they had 700 or 400 wives, and times were different, and if we got back to that time, it'd be better, everything would be hunky dory and smooth, but the issue there is, one, you're looking at that as a huge issue. 


[00:29:19] Prescription rather than a description, but also not getting the full context of that, of what Paul talks about, and the whole idea that we're supposed to treat our lives like Christ treated the church, if you want a good comparison of that, you can also back that up with Hosea. And how Hosea is treated, and by his wife, that represents the Israelites, or the church. 


[00:29:45] So you can look that up, but it's this constant back and forth of, the men are the ones reaching out and supposed to be taking the first step of submission and mercy and grace and all of this and leading by example and even in Ephesians 5, the idea of the man Or, to be like Christ, is we're cleansing our wives and preparing them to be blameless to God. 


[00:30:10] Like, that is one of our major responsibilities, too. My whole objective in life, as a husband, first and foremost, should be my wife's salvation and where she's at with God. 


[00:30:22] Gina: You got me. 


[00:30:24] Cody: You 


[00:30:24] Ben: dumb. Congratulations. 


[00:30:28] Gina: And I'm sorry if I offended anybody by the whole porno comment, but like, You know what, we don't talk about it, we don't teach on it, it's just there. 


[00:30:36] Ben: There are a lot of things that exist in this world that are not brought up by the church and they need to be brought out into the light. And Lord willing, we're going to approach a lot of those over the course of this, uh, this podcast for as long as we do it. But I do think you brought up something very important there with that comment, Gina, in that there is a fear to say certain words and to breach certain topics. 


[00:30:57] And when we talk about darkness in the world. A lot of the times pastors will say, Our children are facing a lot of conflict. What conflict? Well, just conflict! General hard stuff. It's tough. And temptation. Oh, that 


[00:31:16] Gina: temptation. That 


[00:31:17] Ben: darn temptation to what? It's tempting. It sure is that stuff. We don't talk about homosexuality because it's not in vogue anymore. 


[00:31:26] People will get offended. You don't talk about transgenderism now. It's We don't talk about pornography. We don't talk about sex and it creates this bizarre world. And even just bringing up song of Solomon, like you just did. Yes, it exists. 


[00:31:40] Gina: I have to add like we as parents protect our children, but we also want to model healthy love and we kiss in front of our kids. 


[00:31:50] We hold hands like we are affectionate with each other and God has a plan and a purpose for all of the physical contact between men and women 


[00:31:57] Cody: within the confines of how. God designed it, there is nothing wrong with it, and it shouldn't be shied away from. Correct. Going back to 


[00:32:04] Ben: Song of Solomon, that's all it's about. 


[00:32:06] Yeah. 


[00:32:07] Ben: It's, yeah, yeah, God's mention, but the focus is specifically about amorous love. And it's confusing. 


[00:32:14] Gina: Like, I, Had to pray multiple times reading through it before I finally understood what I was meant to understand at that time. Because I used to get angry when I read that book, because it was like, he's comparing her to goats, and it's just weird. 


[00:32:29] Ben: Teeth like little sheep. Boy, is that a pickup line if I ever heard one. So appealing. 


[00:32:34] Gina: But I read it last summer for, just with new eyes, and I It was the most empowering scripture I've ever read, as, like, a wife and a mother. Because I have so much in my past, that I, it's like a little fox. It's sneaky, it sneaks in, and I'm encouraged by scripture to go out and catch those little foxes that ruin our vineyards, and that's exactly what it's talking about. 


[00:32:59] It's not a real fox, it's your baggage. 


[00:33:02] Cody: Well, this leads into the next question pretty well, and I'll probably get Burned at the stake for saying this, but I actually like reading the poetry books and the passion version of the Bible. So, okay. 


[00:33:16] Gina: Babe. 


[00:33:17] Cody: No, I'm not ascribing to KJV only here, but that brings up, how did we get the modern translation of the Bible? 


[00:33:26] Ben: We've kind of addressed it one way or another, there are people who talk about the Council of Trent where there was a split between the Catholics and the Protestants, and they incorporated the Apocrypha at that point. Prior to that, the Apocrypha wasn't considered to be scripture. We kind of treaded this ground already. 


[00:33:42] It's pretty easy to see that very slowly over time, different books came into the canon. And that's very easy to see for the Old Testament especially, since we both have the work from the Jews and the acknowledgement of Christian tradition to compare it to. So, leaving aside the Apocrypha, which I think we can do pretty certainly, yet we know pretty darn sure how and why and when the Old Testament came into being. 


[00:34:05] There is more debate about the writings of the New Testament. At the very least, we can say that the Gospels themselves are solid. 


[00:34:13] Cody: There's a lot of heat on Mark right now. 


[00:34:15] Ben: Yeah, everyone But it's 


[00:34:16] Cody: because it's one of the older written ones. Yes. 


[00:34:19] Ben: You tackled that. Yeah, typically it's acknowledged that Mark is the earliest gospel, and it was written anywhere from between one year after Jesus death to ten years after Jesus death. 


[00:34:30] Generally it's accepted that's the timeline. Some people say it's like twenty years after. There's almost no example of any document of that time. An antiquity that was written 20 years after something. It just didn't happen. Especially by someone who was there for it. Or who was there talking with someone who was there for it, because Mark wasn't actually there, he was a disciple of Peter. 


[00:34:50] Anyway, the point is that we have a pretty strong certainty of what books were considered scripture by different people at different times, and it all lines up fairly well. When you look at what the early church fathers wrote, setting aside the Apocrypha, they pretty much agreed that the writings of Paul were scriptural. 


[00:35:05] The writings of the disciples, the original disciples, were canonical and they were scripture. So that's more or less how it happened. It was slowly over time and then it was through the acknowledgement of the church, the early church specifically for the New Testament, where Paul was writing and then he would send writings off to the various churches, to the churches in Ephesus, Thessalonica. 


[00:35:25] Colossi, and then those letters would be sent to other churches. And Paul referenced some of his letters in other letters, and then there were disciples who would reference his writings in their stuff. We talked about Peter briefly. But yeah, that was basically it. It was a web of connections, both between the Old Testament and the New, specifically for the New Church. 


[00:35:43] And eventually, they believed that was enough, that the writings of Paul and the writings of the apostles was it. And also Hebrews, which may have been written by Paul, but we don't know. So, there's some people who contest whether or not Hebrews should even be in there. That one I understand because we're not sure who wrote it. 


[00:35:58] But when you look at what's in Hebrews, it doesn't really, it doesn't strike me as someone like a cult leader who's trying to elbow his way into the early church. 


[00:36:06] Gina: I actually like Hebrews. Yeah, Hebrews is a good book

[00:36:08] Cody: I do too, but that's for reasons that are not here. But like, it doesn't, like Hebrews, you're not getting any specific doctrine straight out of Hebrews that wouldn't be found in other Gospels or Letters or Epistles. 


[00:36:25] Like, you're not. And it's the same with, like, James is highly debated because everybody says, Oh, it's a work based salvation, but well, no, not really. But it's highly debated for that reason that it goes against the doctrine of salvation through faith. Jude is the same way, not in the sense of what it attacks, but it is in question, but you're not getting any. 


[00:36:47] specific doctrines from those books. 


[00:36:50] Ben: Now, and I think a lot of the arguments come from personal reasons, like a lot of it does, because you're right. When people look at James, like, Oh, it's a workspace theology. Well, no, you're extrapolating that you decided that's what he's talking about, because you want to not have to do anything. 


[00:37:05] Exactly. And all that James is doing is he's addressing what Paul has written, because a lot of people, just like Peter said, take it and run with it. And he's like, just hold on a second. If you really think about it. If you could do literally whatever you wanted all the time, what's the strength of your faith? 


[00:37:21] Your faith means nothing. Your faith should produce something. It is the fruit of the tree. And so if your life doesn't have works to show for your faith, then obviously it's dead. Obviously it's meaningless, and look at this in your own life. For those of us who've had families where we had mothers and fathers who were present, for my family especially, because they were both loving people, and they were both Christians strong in the faith who were involved in my life, if I disobeyed them constantly, they would forgive me, they'd still love me, but my relationship with them would be horrendously strained. 


[00:37:53] And if I went around telling everybody that I was super amazing and awesome because I loved my parents and my parents loved me, but I was constantly spitting in their faces and disagreeing with them and never doing anything remotely close to respecting them, what's the value of that relationship? 


[00:38:10] Cody: Well, and I'd have to argue, and I can't remember, it's not a quote of my own, but You only believe what you act out. 


[00:38:18] Yeah, you're right. Like, if you're saying you believe the Bible, but you don't act it out, you don't believe it. 


[00:38:24] Ben: And even setting that aside, what about James specifically do these people disagree with? His whole commentary about taming the tongue? Is that wrong? Oh no, we should just be able to say whatever we want? 


[00:38:35] Seriously? 


[00:38:35] Gina: Yes. No consequences. 


[00:38:37] Ben: Oh, and no consequences. Hashtag no consequences. 


[00:38:39] Gina: And my feelings matter. I'm sorry. 


[00:38:42] Cody: No, seriously. Go for it, Judah. And like, that doesn't connect to Proverbs, like Proverbs talks about saddling the tongue all the time. Like, so like, where are you getting this independent doctrine that is also not backed up by other scripture? 


[00:38:56] Mm hmm. As well, so. 


[00:38:57] Ben: And that's truly the beautiful thing for me, setting aside the analysis from other sources and what the early church fathers would say about it. Looking at it through our own eyes. When I read the New Testament, just like when I read the Old Testament, I see a ton of beauty in it. I see a lot of true wisdom. 


[00:39:15] When I similarly look at stuff like the Quran, I don't see it. I don't see the same beauty. I see a guy who's making stuff up or a guy who's schizophrenic and crazy because I see a lot of crazy when, if I were to tell you as a woman, Gina, that you, if a man is going to stay in this house. You need to breastfeed them 10 times. 


[00:39:33] Gina: Peace out. 


[00:39:34] Ben: Yeah, It doesn't make sense.

[00:39:36] Cody: I have to buy a goat. 


[00:39:37] Gina: Well, like, does that make me his mother? 


[00:39:40] Cody: That’s the idea. Your family. Yeah. That's why I think Freud would love this argument. 


[00:39:45] Ben: It's like, yeah, when you look 


[00:39:46] Gina: Absolutely not. 


[00:39:47] Ben: When you look at the writings of other things, there's a really big movement now to try to say that there's wisdom in all these different religions. 


[00:39:53] And when you look at it, what they're actually trying to do is take the stuff that sounds the most. Like the stuff that Jesus taught and they say, look, it agrees. They'll take the quotations from Muhammad about don't getting angry, saying it three times. And not taking revenge. Stuff that was abrogated out in the early portions of the Quran. 


[00:40:15] That no longer applies, because it's early, and the stuff that comes later completely erases the early stuff. But yeah, a lot of Muslims will take that stuff and say, see, he talks about mercy, and about justice, and about kindness. And all this stuff lines up with Christianity and what Jesus taught, so obviously it's true. 


[00:40:33] And the Eastern practices and religions, a lot of the The Hindu practices that are coming over to the U. S. now. They approach it from, very much from a, well look at what Jesus said, look at, we all take, everyone loves Jesus. Everyone's trying to take him in and insert him into their works and try to interpret them in a way that works with the gospel. 


[00:40:52] Gina: But it's deeper than that. Yeah, 


[00:40:54] Ben: it is. Because 


[00:40:54] Gina: people say, well, it's not hurting anybody, so it's okay. That's what my mom says. All the time. It's light. It's okay because it's light. I'm not doing the dark stuff. I'm doing the light stuff. Satan masquerades as an angel of light. If you think it's light, test it against scripture and then tell me that it's light. 


[00:41:10] And don't just test it by saying, okay, it matches. Like take it all the way back to context. Take it all the way back to what they were living in. In that era that they were living in, because it doesn't usually actually match up. Just because you have the same words doesn't mean it's saying the same thing. 


[00:41:25] Ben: And when I read James, and when I read Paul, I see actual people. I see people who've been put into situations they didn't ask for, and there's a lot of crazy stuff happening around them, and they're doing their best with what they've been given. And they're struggling, and they're hurting. But, just like you and me, if we were suddenly given a revelation from God, how do you think we would react? 


[00:41:48] We'd be like, I don't know what to do, I'm confused, I'm scared, God help us if this is wrong! And Paul says that, he's like, Heaven help us if this all turns out to be wrong, we're the most to be pitied. It sounds like a guy you could disagree with if you want to, but he sounds like a guy. And when I read Muhammad, when I read Buddha, when I read all this other stuff, they don't seem like real people. 


[00:42:09] They seem like made up people. They seem like people whose words have been given some kind of legendary mysterium. 


[00:42:16] Cody: Oh, and they're written in the description, and, like, I can't remember the exact literal terminology, but, you know, this, like, kingship. Authorship type where you know, that it's always embellished to make them look good. 


[00:42:29] You don't see that in the Bible, like, no, Paul admits 


[00:42:32] Gina: that he's messed up. Yes, he 


[00:42:33] Cody: does. Yeah. Talk about a more confusing, just jumble of, 


[00:42:39] Gina: I do what I want to 


[00:42:40] Cody: do, but 


[00:42:40] Ben: don't do what I ought not do. That's, I feel like at times during this podcast, I've come across that way. Oh, yeah. And that's, it's real. It's a guy who's confused and he's conflicted and he's scared. 


[00:42:53] And he's like, yeah, I don't know. Like there's stuff I know I should be doing, but I don't do it. But I want to do it, but I don't. I relate with that. Yeah, I relate with that. 


[00:43:04] Cody: I don't relate with the perfect idea of a lot of these other deities or The harder ones, the Abrahamic religion, is a lot harder, I think, to attack and pick out. 


[00:43:18] And the Greek and Roman mythology, like, everybody's of the same opinion, and they keep trying to put Christianity in that, and it's failing because the history of it, the consistency of it, and it's not, there's not embellishment in the Bible. You don't, what, what king comes, dies. Is made fun of, mocked, 


[00:43:43] Gina: Spit on and murdered. 


[00:43:44] Spit on 


[00:43:44] Cody: and murdered for our benefits. 


[00:43:48] Ben: Like, where do you see that anywhere else? You're absolutely right. And there are individual stories told in the Gospels whose details, they match the way I would describe something if I saw it. So like, there's the part where there's the woman who's about to be stoned because she was an adulteress. 


[00:44:03] And she's brought forward and the religious leaders think they're setting a really clever trap for Jesus. He's like, so should this woman be stoned? Because they don't have the authority to execute people. So if he says yes, well, they're going up against Caesar. They're going up against the Roman authority. 


[00:44:15] If he says no, he's going against the law, which is God's law, which is the highest law. And he bends over and starts writing down something on the ground. 


[00:44:25] Gina: Oh, I wish I could have been there. 


[00:44:27] Ben: Yeah, we don't know what he said. We don't know who he was writing it to. We don't know why he was writing on the ground with his finger. 


[00:44:33] He wrote something down with his finger. It was probably for the woman. And it's probably only something she saw. But everyone got impatient and they're like, okay, answer us. Are you buying time or what? And he's like, well, you're right. But whoever's guiltless cast the first stone and everyone just kind of stood around looking at each other, like. 


[00:44:52] I guess we go home now and slowly one by one, everyone left until it was just him and the woman. And he gets up and looks around because Jesus is a funny guy. When you really look at, I didn't use to see this, but he looks up. It's kind of sarcastic. He looks around and he's like, is there anyone else? And the woman's like, no, it just you and me is like, then I don't condemn you either go and sin no more. 


[00:45:16] And then that's it. That's it. 


[00:45:20] Cody: We've talked a lot about the Islamic religion, and one of their biggest polls is that the Bible is not correct because of all of the translations that have happened. Does translating the Bible create misunderstandings and errors, or are they completely off base with that statement? 


[00:45:42] Ben: So I wouldn't say that it creates errors necessarily. 


[00:45:46] Because you actually encounter a similar issue if you don't translate. For instance, there's a bee attitude, The meek shall inherit the earth. The word meek has a very specific modern context. Meek is the correct Greek word, it's just it meant something different to the Greeks. And so if you don't translate that into something that modern people will understand, which is, essentially, those who have swords and are skilled in their use, but choose to keep them sheathed. 


[00:46:10] That's essentially what that word meant. So think about that for a second, how drastically different an idea that is. Those who are powerful 


[00:46:18] Gina: I'm shy or I'm powerful. 


[00:46:19] Ben: Yeah. I am powerful but choose to restrain myself. I will inherit the earth. Versus, I'm just kind of shy. I don't do much. I don't get out. I don't get out. 


[00:46:28] I don't talk to people. Whatever you want to do 


[00:46:31] Ben: earth is mine. Yes. Because God's going to give it to me. So yeah, in that sense, if you don't translate it at all, or provide some measure of explanation, people will get the wrong idea. But, when you do translate things, there are certain things that just don't translate very well. 


[00:46:47] And so, it is incumbent on us to go and do our best to read through a lot of the analyses to try to get some context for what was. And Oscar Wilde, I never thought I would reference Oscar Wilde specifically in this kind of thing, but Oscar Wilde in De Profundis specifically talks about going back to the New Testament and reading it in Greek. 


[00:47:08] And he talked about how incredible an experience that was, and how different it was, and how much more character He got, and how much more meaning and how fun it was for him to read it in the original Greek. And when you look back, there was a lot more teaching of Greek, of Biblical Greek, way back in the day. 


[00:47:24] So that people could read the Bible to get a more clear viewing of things. I feel like we, we kind of approach the Bible with a lot more laziness today. We just kind of want everyone to have done the work for us so we don't have to go and learn Greek so we can read it ourselves. Much less Aramaic. Gotta help you if you try to learn Biblical Hebrew. 


[00:47:42] We know 


[00:47:42] Gina: somebody who just learned. Albert. 


[00:47:45] Cody: Oh, he learned Aramaic, yeah. 


[00:47:47] Gina: And Biblical Hebrew. He's 


[00:47:49] Cody: taught Biblical Hebrew for a while. 


[00:47:51] Gina: But he just learned Aramaic. 


[00:47:53] Ben: Good for him. But yeah, it is one of those things where you are best served if you put effort into it. And you may think that's unfair. You may think that's not right. 


[00:48:03] How could God do that? Doesn't that mean that the Bible is fundamentally flawed? This is a horrible way to learn. Well, when you really look at the teachings of Christ, He taught in parables. He told people things that they didn't understand to begin with. And He had to explain to the disciples after the fact. 


[00:48:21] We haven't gone anywhere. We already, from the original stuff, if you knew all the original context, if you knew biblical Greek, and if you knew the cultural context, you would still be confused. It took effort. It took wisdom. It took understanding to learn and understand the Bible to begin with. And if people of the time didn't understand what Paul was talking about, If they were already misconstruing it and deciding that they were going to follow Apollos, or whoever else, or the super apostles, Yeah, you can bet that you're not going to understand either. 


[00:48:51] So, that's my take on it. Translating the Bible, yes, it does lead to some challenges, but it doesn't make it any less worthwhile. In fact, in many ways, it makes it more worthwhile. When I learned that thing about meekness, like, there are typically the areas where there's going to be conflict or issues, you can see them. 


[00:49:08] When you read, okay, the meek shall inherit the earth, what does that even mean? That should set up red flags immediately. And when you learn what it, there, there's another part where it talks about turning the other cheek. It's like, okay, so I'm just supposed to lay down and let this stuff happen. No, that's not what it's talking about. 


[00:49:24] No. If someone strikes you, their hand is on the other side of your face and there is the back hand. You turn your cheek so that they have to hit you properly. You are challenging them. You're saying, no, you just disgraced me. You insulted me by hitting me with an open hand. I'm going to make you hit me properly. 


[00:49:44] I can take more than what you are giving me. Roman law said you're only allowed to make a person go one mile. You take them two miles. They're going to try to torture you. They're going to try to do the max that they possibly can do. No, you're going to take them for a walk. Christianity is a fighting religion. 


[00:50:01] That's what C. S. Lewis talks about. It is a fighting religion. Jesus isn't teaching you to lay down. to take whatever it is that's given to you. Now, there are going to be times where you fight. There's another passage where Jesus specifically talks about how it's okay to defend yourself. He talks to the disciples and says, If you don't have a sword, sell your cloak, buy one. 


[00:50:20] I'm not going to be here soon. You have a right to defend yourself. But what he is talking about there is that there are going to be times where someone does violence to you. You don't simply lay there and take it. You take them further. Not that you take the violence further. But you let them know that you can go farther. 


[00:50:35] That you're not going to take what they're doing lying down. If someone insults you, if someone Let's say that you're a missionary and you're going out in the middle of nowhere and there are a bunch of people showing violence. You don't run, you don't leave, you don't simply sit there and take it. There was a point where Paul was being stoned, and he was thrown out of the city, and he was near death. 


[00:50:51] He shakily got up. Everyone thought he was dead. He's like, oh, no, I'm okay. And then he goes straight back in and he starts preaching again. That's a guy who has a spirit of fighting inside of him. He's got a fire in him, and that's what we should be. So yeah, that's what I get from a lot of this. Is that, no, it's not that the Bible's corrupted because he translated it. 


[00:51:09] And there was a fear for a long time. That was gonna happen, but ultimately what ended up happening was that there were a lot of people who just said, Look, I'm the one who can read the Bible. You're gonna have to just trust me. And they became the Bible, and they treated themselves as God themselves, as royalty. 


[00:51:26] And that's ultimately what ends up happening, and that's not what God wanted for the Bible. So, I don't know what your guys opinions are on it. I've gone a little farther than I probably should. 


[00:51:33] Cody: No, I mean, I can't, I don't disagree with that at all. I waffle between how Roman Catholics handled the Bible early on, and then the need for Reformation. 


[00:51:44] Sometimes you wish the people who don't do the work to study the Bible, don't have access to it just because of the poor doctrine that they spew. But it's easy to defend that from your own personal standpoint and speak against it in an honorable way as well. I do agree in what the Reformation did and the Bible to the modern people, but it does get frustrating when people constantly use it out of context and get this name it and claim it mentality, but behind the Bible and use that to push self motivated means. 


[00:52:16] Ben: How often have all of us at one time or another believed something, and now we've changed because we've read the Bible, we've grown in our understanding of it. If we approached it as, we need an authority to just tell us what to believe, we wouldn't grow. All of us have changed our beliefs at one time or another because our understanding has grown. 


[00:52:32] And maybe our understanding was right then and now it's wrong. Maybe we'll end up going back to what it was. But I know that my stance on homosexuality has changed a lot because it was initially influenced by culture. And I thought, well, grace and love and peace and mercy. And it's okay, whatever. And then you read Romans chapter 1. 


[00:52:50] And you're like, well, okay, this is incongruous. Either I change how I feel about it, and then you start to explore why. That should be what these things prompt you to do. Ask why. It doesn't 


[00:53:01] Gina: change the fact that you are obligated to show love. 


[00:53:05] Ben: Yes. 


[00:53:06] Gina: And respect and mercy. But it also doesn't excuse the fact that that is a sin. 


[00:53:13] Ben: Absolutely, 


[00:53:13] Gina: just like beating your wife is a sin just like all the other sins are named in the Bible. 


[00:53:18] Ben: We don't conform to the patterns of this world. We are transformed by the renewing of our mind. If you don't allow yourself to make mistakes, you're not gonna grow, 


[00:53:26] Gina: right? 


[00:53:27] Cody: No, and that's one thing that we try to promote on the podcast a lot is like, don't take anything we say for it. 


[00:53:33] God, no. I'm probably wrong about a lot of stuff that I say on the podcast, and you need to confirm this. for yourself and let us know where you think we're wrong too because that's an open discussion where we would love to have that type of back and forth and communication because we're all in this together at the end of the day trying to grow and our ultimate goal should be to build each other up and not tear each other down. 


[00:54:04] Gina: Thank you so much for taking the time to listen to our podcast today. If you liked what you heard, please feel free to subscribe and share and leave a positive review. And if you would like to connect with us on social media, you can do so on Instagram and Facebook at the logic of God. You can also send us an email at main dot the logic of God at gmail. 


[00:54:26] com. Thanks again for listening. We hope you have a great day.

God Speaks to Us Through Scripture Part 1

[00:00:00] Cody: Hi, thank you for tuning in to the Logic of God podcast. I'm Cody. 


[00:00:09] Gina: I'm Gina. 


[00:00:10] Ben: And I'm Ben. If you're returning, thank you for coming back, and if you are a new guest, welcome. 


[00:00:24] Gina: And today we are going to be talking about our next assumption. 


[00:00:29] Ben: Yes, episode six, God speaks to us through scripture. In fact, he does. And we were very careful to word it that way. 


[00:00:38] Gina: Because we all agree. 


[00:00:40] Ben (2): Yes, this is something we all agree on. And we'll get into some of the more iffy territory, because I know this is something that's contentious even amongst Christians. 


[00:00:50] But generally, we all agree that God does speak to us through the scripture, through the Holy Bible. And how much of that is God's word, like truly inspired, and how much of that is just fluff or the word of man that builds up to the word of God is something that I think Reasonable people can have a discussion about, because that is something that's been discussed amongst Jews, amongst Christians, and a lot of accusatory stuff has been thrown our way from sources like atheists, or agnostics, or skeptics generally, or Muslims especially. 


[00:01:26] A lot of the case for the Quran is built off of the dismantling of the Bible itself. And claiming that it's not reliable and that it's been corrupted. And, Lord willing, when we get to the episode on Islam, we'll cover that in more detail. But I think it's very important for us to build off a foundation of what we all agree on. 


[00:01:44] Because I think no matter what your view is on the Bible and whether or not all of it's true, all of it's God inspired, all of it's God breathed, the important thing is that We all agree it is, in some way, inspired by God. We all agree that it's something that we can draw from as a resource, and that God does speak to us, one way or another, through it. 


[00:02:06] So it's important to start where we all agree. So, in order for us to even start with what we agree on, we have to define what it is we're talking about. So, what is scripture? 


[00:02:19] Gina: Well, the dictionary defines it. 


[00:02:22] Ben: Are you one of those people, Gina? Well, the dictionary says. 


[00:02:26] Cody: Lobster's Dictionary 1922. 


[00:02:29] Ben: I'm gonna pretend it wasn't me who wrote that down. 


[00:02:33] The books of the Bible, or a body of writings considered sacred or authoritative? 


[00:02:42] Gina: It's a little vague. 


[00:02:43] Ben: Yeah, it's a little bit vague, so let's go into this. Are there sacred texts, we'll consider it basically sacred texts, so the sacred texts from the books of the Bible. Or writings from other religious bodies that are considered sacred or authoritative. 


[00:02:56] So, are there sacred texts from other religions that would be considered scripture from a Christian perspective? Or is it just the Bible? 


[00:03:03] Gina: Well, the Jewish religion uses a good portion of our Bible for their own religious purposes. 


[00:03:10] Ben: Or we use theirs. Yeah. I mean, they came first. They came first. For the Jews in our audience, we'll give it to you. 


[00:03:16] You guys came first. No, it's okay. But yeah, that's kind of the obvious place to start. Yeah, absolutely, the Jewish faith was the one that came first and Christianity came as an offspring from that. But I think the tougher question would be, is there stuff from other religions generally that we would consider God breathed, where God spoke to someone and there was a revelation and we can use that specifically. 


[00:03:40] And we're talking more specifically about other religions, not other people that are representatives of Christianity. Yeah. Absolutely. 


[00:03:46] No. 


[00:03:48] Cody: Yeah, you can just go through pretty much any other religious source text and, you know, you'll either have instances of polytheism. It's a little bit different with the Abrahamic line that Islam has. 


[00:04:02] It follows a little bit more closely with Judeo Christianity, but I think it's pretty easy to pick apart. 


[00:04:12] Ben: Yeah, and there are a number of very good Christian theologians and atheist theologians, oddly enough, I don't know that you'd call them theologians, but there's guys like the Apostate Prophet on YouTube who is an atheist and a former Muslim who does point out a lot of the inconsistencies in Islam. 


[00:04:27] Dr. David Wood is actually pretty famous in Muslim circles as well as Dr. Nabeel Qureshi, God rest him. Yeah, there is a lot of internal inconsistency in something like Islam, and we'll leave that for its own episode, I think, but sufficient to say, I think, is that in the Hadith themselves, in the traditions passed on by a lot of people like Abu Bakr, is that there was a very different opinion of what the Qur'an should be. 


[00:05:00] There were many more verses at one time, and some of those verses that were lost are very fortuitous because they would not make much sense. Like the one that requires that a woman breastfeed a man staying in her house ten times. That is a slight deviation, but it is definitely something worth talking about, that there was a story that was passed on in one of the Hadith of how Aisha lost one of the the verses of the Quran and that verse was specifically pertaining to how If a woman, if a man is going to be staying in a woman's house To avoid temptation completely, that something might, you know, happen sexually between them, that she must breastfeed him ten times, and after the tenth time, she will consider, she will be considered family, and so there's no longer any issue, and Aisha is just like, oh no, I just happened to lose this verse, it was eaten by a goat that came into my house, and, you know, Even though goats aren't allowed to do that. 


[00:06:04] And it came in and it just Eight, the verse just darn. I don't know what happened there. 


[00:06:11] Freud 


[00:06:12] Ben: would have a lot to comment on 


[00:06:13] Cody: that topic. 


[00:06:16] Ben: Oh man. But there's a lot of stuff like that in Islam, a lot of strange details, a lot of odd things, even in the Quran itself. And without going too much further into it, I think it is just enough to say that we don't consider. 


[00:06:31] pretty much any other work that is claimed divinely inspired to be actually divinely inspired. We don't believe that. It's pretty much just stuff from the Bible, stuff from the Jewish tradition, stuff from the Christian tradition that we consider to be divinely inspired. As far as being scriptural, because there are sources that aren't specifically the Bible, I would say, and I think most people would agree. 


[00:06:57] We would consider to be inspired, or at the very least useful, built on the Bible, and instructive in a similar way to the Bible itself. Not necessarily canon, and by canon we mean, The actual essence of the word, which is measurement, or measuring rod, or ruler. It's the thing that we use against other works to compare and see, okay, is this something we should be looking at? 


[00:07:22] Is this true? And that's something that's very different when you look at, say, Jehovah's Witness, or you look at Mormonism. The big thing is that they say, oh no, this stuff is corrupted, this stuff is incomplete. Our stuff now. Though it is in direct opposition to it, this is the right stuff. Don't look at the old stuff, look at this stuff because it's right. 


[00:07:45] Gina: I'm glad that you say that, because in the New Age movement, there's a lot of different people that claim to channel Jesus and other biblical figures, and they write books. And a lot of that is taken as gospel by people who believe that they're Christian, but then also practice New Age spirituality. And I would like to So bring some attention to that because I know from first hand experience that I have students and my family that believe that the wisdom in those books is from God and therefore can be used as a reliable source of knowledge and wisdom and all of that. 


[00:08:24] So, 


[00:08:25] Ben: yeah, and I think. Like I said, we all do agree that there are people who do speak things that are the truth that can be revealed to them by God, inspired by God. In a similar method to the scriptures themselves, we just don't consider it to be the measurement. We don't consider it to be scripture, we don't consider it to be canon. 


[00:08:41] It is built on the foundation of script, and it has to be an additive. Not subtractive. 


[00:08:46] Gina: Right. 


[00:08:48] Ben: So, an example of that, I would say, is a lot of the writings of C. S. Lewis. Not all of it is agreed with. Obviously, we're human. But, I would say that, if you are a brand new Christian, and you've talked to anybody about resources that you should turn to for learning about it, you've probably been referred to mere Christianity. 


[00:09:07] It is one of those books where C. S. Lewis builds a reasonable case, both for God himself and for Christianity generally. And, there are some folks who 


[00:09:17] Ben: would say, some people, okay, some people say, not me, lots of smart people, very wise people, okay? They say, he's pretty smart, he's divinely inspired, okay? 


[00:09:28] Ben: Yeah, there's some people who would say that it is divinely inspired. 


[00:09:31] At the very least, a lot of it is true, a lot of it is solid, a lot of it is reasonable. And so because of that, you could consider it to be scripture in a sense, but not really because it's not canon. It's not the, it builds off of it. It's supplementary to it. It builds on the foundation. 


[00:09:49] Cody: It builds on it and covers more modern. 


[00:09:54] Like, you know, when the Bible was written, the theory of evolution was not around, so that's not really something that the Bible tackles and whole we have the creation story that covers how creation happened, but doesn't give a. More attackable approach to evolution from a biblical worldview. 


[00:10:13] Ben: And I think the important thing is that for all of these sources Gina was talking about, there are plenty of people who claim to be spiritual and who will claim that they have received something from God, some kind of revelation. 


[00:10:25] And we use scripture itself. We use the canon as a measuring rod, as a plumb line. To say, okay, how does this match up? If it matches up, if it doesn't directly contradict with what scripture says, and is in agreement with it, and builds on it as the foundation, then we say, okay, yeah, that's good, that's great, and we use it, and we learn from it, and we build and grow in our understanding of God and the world that he's made, and the wisdom he's passed on to us. 


[00:10:51] If it's in direct opposition, it's very dangerous. 


[00:10:55] Cody: Yes, and the source material outside the Bible, I would argue, you should not be making any Doctrinal decisions on you shouldn't get your biblical doctrine outside of something that can be founded inside the Bible 


[00:11:12] Ben: Agreed and that isn't to say that you can't receive something from God that is not specifically mentioned in the Bible That isn't true Because there's a, there are a number of books that are written on various topics, like specifically Heaven. 


[00:11:27] And there are questions that are brought up, like, are children in Heaven? And that's not something that's specifically talked about in the Bible. And there are people who claim that they've died, and came back shortly after, or were in comas, or whatnot, and went to Heaven for a specific amount of time, and they've talked about seeing children there. 


[00:11:45] Who grew up in heaven and had conversations with people. Even for me, there was a point where I had a dream that I was in heaven and was talking to my brother. I don't remember much of it, but I do remember the feeling as I was coming out of the dream was very different from any feeling I've ever had before. 


[00:12:02] And the feeling while I was there was very different from any feeling I'd had before. And I only remember the tiniest bit of the conversation, but I know there was a much larger conversation that happened. I only remember a tiny piece of it because that was all that I was supposed to remember. Whether or not it was just a dream, or I was actually, just like Paul said, whether I was caught up in the body or out of the body, only God knows. 


[00:12:25] But I know what it was that I felt, and I wouldn't build a doctrine out of what I felt or what I saw. That doesn't mean that God didn't show me something, and that doesn't mean that it's false. But it's very important for us to distinguish. We can have opinions based on things that God shows us. They just can't be in direct opposition to the Bible. 


[00:12:47] Gina: And on that note, Satan masquerades as an angel of light. 


[00:12:52] Ben: Absolutely. 


[00:12:52] Gina: And also test everything. 


[00:12:55] Ben: Which is scriptural. So, that does lead nicely into the next question. Are all books of the Bible considered to be scripture?

[00:13:09] Gina: I have a feeling that you're going to present me with some sort of Very, I don't know, authoritative something or other. 


[00:13:18] It feels like it's scripture. 


[00:13:20] Ben: It feels like it, guys. I don't know what to tell you. 


[00:13:23] Gina: They, in the canon process, no. 


[00:13:27] Cody: So, Unless you wanted to talk. Go for it. So for me in this one, the Old Testament is very verifiable as a complete canon, because it came before Jesus. So it's an easy argument to make. What? Is considered scripture inside the Old Testament canon rather than the New Testament is where it gets a little bit more in depth and the critical review comes into play a little bit more because at least with the Old Testament you have the So, so we have him quoting the Septuagint, that was a very strict process in the canonization there. 


[00:14:08] You also have Josephus, with the 22 books, he never lists them, but there is a very specific Jewish canon inside of that, and you, you know that is scripture. And when the Bible refers to scripture, it is referring to the Old Testament, not the New Testament. 


[00:14:23] Ben: Well, let's stop for a moment there and address a couple of things in there, because you mentioned the Septuagint. 


[00:14:28] Yeah. It's best not to breeze past that because a lot of our listeners probably don't know what that is. So why don't you define what the Septuagint is specifically? 


[00:14:38] Cody: So the Septuagint was a translation. The current culture at the time was going away from biblical Hebrew. A lot of the modern Jews did not understand, speak, or read biblical Hebrew. 


[00:14:53] So there was a major need to translate the Old Testament scriptures into a more common language of the time. So there was, Septuagint basically means 70, I think, right? Something like that. So there was 70 Jewish scholars who took the Old Testament Biblical Hebrew and translated it into the modern Greek of the time, just so it could be more distributed and understood by everybody around at that time. 


[00:15:24] Ben: Well, so there's a body of work inside of the Septuagint called the Apocrypha. Why don't we include the Apocrypha in the Bible? 


[00:15:34] Cody: That is a very good question. What's the Apocrypha? 


[00:15:36] Ben: That's a work of, I believe, 13 individual writings that came about in the 2nd century BC. And it's from various authors, I don't remember, I don't remember all of the names, there's like Maccabees in there, there's, it's a bunch of different works, but 


[00:15:52] Cody: More commonly probably referred to today as Deuterocanon. 


[00:15:56] There we go. Oh, really? Yeah, so Apocrypha Enoch is still considered Apocrypha, which basically just means hidden. 


[00:16:04] Ben: So, yeah, why is it specifically that we don't include Apocrypha Enoch? Those 13 works, the Apocrypha, in the Bible, because in the Catholic Bible, they are included. 


[00:16:13] Cody: Well, Catholic Bible and actually early Church Fathers origin, Augustine, I believe, confirmed these. 


[00:16:19] So, why we don't is because later on, you know, I think it was the, gosh, what is the council? Was it Cambridge? Nice. No. 


[00:16:28] Ben: So, yes, it was Cambridge slash whatever. It's, uh, it's one of those joint names. 


[00:16:33] Cody: Deuterocanon. That actually didn't get removed till after the Reformation. So it's actually pretty widely accepted. 


[00:16:40] Ben: So, unfortunately, this is where I'm going to have to disagree with you a little bit. Oh, 


[00:16:45] Cody: okay. Are 


[00:16:45] Ben: you aware of what the Tanakh is? 


[00:16:47] Cody: Yes. 


[00:16:48] Ben: All right. So for the people who don't know, there are three different bodies of work that are recognized by Jewish tradition as scripture. There's the Torah, there's the Prophets, and there's the Writings. 


[00:17:04] There are specific Jewish names for these, and the Tanakh is basically an acronym for them. The Torah, There's the Prophets, and there's the Writings. And that's 22 books. 22, 24, depending on who you ask. But it is all the same works regardless. The reason there is the discrepancy between the book numbers is not because there are different books included versus not included. 


[00:17:24] It's because there are certain writers, like Ezra and Nehemiah, 1st and 2nd Kings, 1st and 2nd Chronicles, that are combined into singular books. And sometimes they're split. All of those Writings in the Tanakh, were established by the year 400 BC. It was all considered to be scriptural according to the Jewish tradition by that point. 


[00:17:47] And the reason we know that is in part because, as you mentioned, Josephus, he mentions the 22 books as being the canonical ones, and he references how strange it is, how sad it is, that for 400 years God was silent. There were no prophets, there were no additional works being added, Nothing. 


[00:18:05] Gina: I've actually heard that taught on, but, continue. 


[00:18:09] Ben: So, the reason we don't have the apocrypha, specifically, is because they aren't scriptural. And when you actually look at a lot of the teachings, yes, there are a lot of early church fathers who do teach that the, the Apocrypha is scripture because it is included in the Septuagint. And the reason it's included in the Septuagint is because the Septuagint is an inclusion of a bunch of different writings that the, the compilers of the Septuagint consider to be important. 


[00:18:45] Cody: forgot to mention, the Apocrypha or the Deuterocanon that you mentioned is translated much later than the original 22. Sure. Yeah, so it wasn't, the Septuagint was a span of time. It took a while to get the full. 


[00:19:00] Ben: And when you look at a lot of the early church fathers that specifically believed it to be canon, they were people who didn't actually read the Hebrew language. 


[00:19:10] When you look at people like Josephus, and then there were a couple others I can't remember specifically, but Pastor Mike Winger has a video specifically on this, which I highly recommend to anybody who wants to learn more about this, where he references the fathers who did talk about it, like the guys you mentioned, and some who didn't. 


[00:19:26] The ones who didn't were ones who actually could read the original writings and who were familiar with Jewish works. And because they were familiar with Jewish works, they referred to the Tanakh, not the Septuagint, because they knew the difference culturally. A lot of the guys like Augustine didn't know the difference, and so they were looking at the Apocrypha. 


[00:19:43] They were looking at the Septuagint in its entirety, as was at the time, which included the Apocrypha. And so they said, well, obviously this is scripture, but when you look later on, there is a specifically a study Bible that was available in the middle ages, the Glossa Ordinaria, and it specifically labels all passages from the, the Apocrypha as non scriptural. 


[00:20:07] This is something that was discussed at length between different parties going up until our full canonization process. This is something where a lot of people look at it and say, Okay, so at some point there were a bunch of guys in silly hats that decided that the Bible was the Bible. That's not really how it happened. 


[00:20:26] How it happened is that slowly over time there were revelations. At one time the canon was the five books of Moses. And that was all the canon was, because no further books had been written. Eventually, there were additional writings that were included in. As the Minor Prophets and the Major Prophets prophesied, their words became canon, because at that point, God's word was revealed. 


[00:20:48] By the time we reach from 1400 BC to 400, by the time we got to 400, the Last of the Prophets had spoken. And by that point, The canonization of the Old Testament was completed, and there's not too much debate on that. When you really look at the, the writings from the time when you look at Ezra, you look at Nehemiah, you look at Daniel, they re, they refer to each other, they talk about the different prophecies. 


[00:21:12] And Isaiah's reference, Jeremiah's reference, they refer to one another. They talk about the foundation on which they were built on. So I agree with you in that it's not really up for debate. What the Old Testament is. 


[00:21:24] Cody: No. 


[00:21:25] Ben: But I would say, oddly enough, that it is harder to address than the New Testament. 


[00:21:30] And the reason I say that specifically is because there are a lot of different verses specifically in the New Testament where they talk about how the writings of Paul and the writings of the Apostles are equivalent to the Prophets. So, I got a list of about twelve of them here. I'm not going to read them all. 


[00:21:46] But there are three specifically that I wanted to address. The first is 1 Corinthians 14, 36 38. Alright, so 38. Or did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached, if anyone thinks they are a prophet or otherwise gifted by the Spirit? Let them acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord's command. 


[00:22:11] But if anyone ignores this, they will themselves be ignored. There, Paul is specifically talking about what he's writing, what he's telling people. Now, you could just be saying that's what he's talking about in the moment, and that's a fair argument. One citation of Paul calling himself canon does not an entire New Testament make. 


[00:22:34] So, second one. Would be Second Thessalonians two 13 through 15. But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by God because God chose you as first fruits to be saved through the sanctifying work of the spirit and through belief in the truth. He called you to this through our gospel. 


[00:22:56] That you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings we passed to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter. The good news that they passed on the gospel is by word of mouth and letter that they passed, that Paul and the apostles passed to these people. 


[00:23:17] Again, he's reaffirming that the things that he wrote and the things that the apostles wrote are Scripture, are equivalent to the prophets, are the good news, are equivalent to the word of Christ himself. But, Again, this is just Paul referring to his own writings. And he does this multiple times. Like I said, I've got about 12 of these. 


[00:23:34] So it's enough to say that he claims his epistles, his letters that he wrote to the various churches, are important, are equivalent to scripture. But that's just him. Did anyone else refer to his writings and the writings of the apostles as canon? Well, we go to 2 Peter 3, 15 through 16. Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul was. 


[00:24:00] Also wrote to you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things which are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do with the other scriptures, to their own destruction. The letters of Paul are considered scripture by Peter. 


[00:24:22] And if you're Catholic, that means something. If you're not Catholic, that still means something, but slightly less. But that's just the people of the time. Were there people after that considered this to be the foundation on which they should not add to? That it's the writings of Paul, it's the writings of the apostles, and that's it. 


[00:24:42] Well, there are also the writings of the early Church Fathers, and there are a few that we could go to, but specifically I wanted to go to Clement of Rome. So 1 Clement 41, 42, 1 through 2. Yeah, 1 Clement 41, 4, and then 1 Clement 42, 1 through 2. So sorry about that. First Clement 4, sorry, First Clement 41. 4. 


[00:25:07] Ye see, brethren, in proportion as greater knowledge hath been vouchsafed to us, so much more we are exposed to danger. Essentially, we've been taught a lot of stuff, and it's true, and we're in a lot of danger because of it. First Clement 42. 1. Yeah, I'm really butchering this, but I, there's really not any great translation that's in modern talk. 


[00:25:30] So I don't read good old stuff. All right. First Clement 42. 1. The Apostles received the gospel for us from the Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ was sent forth from God. So then, Christ is from God. The Apostles are from Christ. Both therefore came of the will of God in the appointed order. I get that there is the strong Jewish tradition, that it's built very strongly, and that there's not a whole lot of question, if you really go into it, about what the Old Testament is. 


[00:26:03] There are a lot of people who try to throw in stuff like the Gospel of Thomas, and the Gospel of Judas, and all that stuff, and say that we don't really know what should be in the New Testament, and that no one really knew what anyone else was saying. I don't really believe that. I think that you can make arguments. 


[00:26:22] However strong they might be, that there's more stuff that should be in the New Testament, even more stuff that should be in the Old Testament. But when you really look at what the people of the time believed, they believed in what Paul wrote. They believed in the gospels, they reference it. They reference one another. 


[00:26:40] Paul references himself, he references the other apostles. And so it's very clear that the Apostles believed what Paul wrote was authoritative. Paul believed what he wrote was authoritative. And he believed what the other Apostles wrote was equivalent to the Word of God Himself and the Word of the Prophets. 


[00:26:56] If you disagree, you're disagreeing with Paul and the Apostles. And I think it's pretty clear from what I've cited here because it's not my opinion, it's their opinion. If you disagree with them, you're disagreeing, you're disagreeing with the foundation of Christianity. It doesn't mean that they're right. 


[00:27:13] I think that you can still argue, you can still doubt. Seriously, it's just, I personally find it very difficult to make an argument that we don't know, with any measure of reliability, what was in the New Testament and what people believe with Scripture. 


[00:27:28] Gina: I really like how Cody has described making those judgments as a believer with cross referencing. 


[00:27:37] So it's like if you removed the doctrine that one person said. Could you find it somewhere else in scripture and most of the time the answer is yes, so Like you have so many different sources backing up each other. It makes it hard to Believe that they're not accurate and I think that's part of the process of removing certain scriptures Like the book of Thomas or Judas because you can't back up Stories from when Jesus was a child you can't back up like it's not Mentioned in other areas, 


[00:28:14] Ben: correct 


[00:28:15] Cody: Scripture interprets scripture, and if you can't interpret scripture with other scripture, then you know it. 


[00:28:22] It's probably not supposed to be there. 


[00:28:26] Gina: Thank you so much for taking the time to listen to our podcast today. If you liked what you heard, please feel free to subscribe and share and leave a positive review. And if you would like to connect with us on social media, you can do so on Instagram and Facebook at the Logic of God. 


[00:28:43] You can also send us an email at Main dot the Logic of god@gmail.com. Thanks again for listening. We hope you have a great day.

Was Jesus God? Part 2

[00:00:00] Cody: Hi, 


[00:00:10] thank you for tuning in to the Logic of God podcast. I'm Cody. 


[00:00:13] Gina: I'm Gina. 


[00:00:14] Cody: And I'm Ben. If you're returning, thank you for coming back. And if you are a new guest, welcome. All right. 


[00:00:31] Ben: So we've covered miracles at this point. We've covered the Bible. We've covered a lot of ground. But even taking all that into account, how do we actually know that he rose again after he died? Because the disciples could have lied about that. That is a potential explanation. And it's not exactly a horrible one, because if you look, there have been a number of instances throughout history where there have been claims made about people, and legends have formed around people a significant amount of time after their death. 


[00:01:01] So is it possible that Jesus death and resurrection was a legend that grew up out of time, or something where very early on the disciples were like, no, we're going to lie about this, and we're going to do it to gain fame and to gain power? 


[00:01:15] Gina: Well, they all got very rich and did wonderful, fun things for the rest of their lives. 


[00:01:19] Oh, 


[00:01:20] Ben: absolutely. They were living it up. Yeah, I hear John got a nice oil bath, like a really expensive oil bath. 


[00:01:28] Cody: One 


[00:01:31] Gina: of them was crucified upside down, I think. 


[00:01:33] Ben: Yes, that would be Peter. 


[00:01:34] Gina: Yeah. 


[00:01:35] Cody: Yeah, all but one of the disciples died a martyr's death. A lot of the early church fathers that were taught by the disciples themselves died a very gruesome death. 


[00:01:48] Polycarp was boiled alive inside of a brass bowl or, I don't know, the metal, but just in his book of martyrs. I 


[00:01:59] Gina: don't see that being a logical argument. They did it for fame. That's like, you're going to lose everything, your family, your belongings, your prized possessions, your identity, everything. Because you've made up a story, and you're going to be tortured for it. 


[00:02:18] And everyone you love is probably going to be tortured for it. But it's worth it, because it got you attention. 


[00:02:25] Cody: And that's where a lot of the historic writings on this are unique, because most people didn't write about themselves in a negative light, especially early years. And you get to see this mental issues that they had, they, a lot of them didn't believe that after Jesus died, that he was going to raise again, they were hiding because they thought they were going to get killed and that they had lost. 


[00:02:50] And even until he rose, they didn't. So you get this back and forth and I think the honesty of seeing these were real people and they had issues and they talked about their issues and then they go on to carry on in this spreading of the gospel of Jesus even though they knew the whole time what would happen. 


[00:03:16] Even when they were walking with Jesus, he was telling them how they were going to die. And how they were going to be reprimanded for furthering his kingdom. And it was never this pull for fame that you read about. And I just, they're famous now. Yes. But they didn't get to experience the fruits of that fame. 


[00:03:37] Gina: Jesus told them that the world was going to hate them. 


[00:03:40] Cody: And they did. They got brutally 


[00:03:41] Ben: murdered. 


[00:03:42] Gina: Yeah. 


[00:03:43] Ben: Yeah. And when you look at some of the more famous cult leaders, specifically, we'll go with Joseph Smith. Yeah. The guy ended up with a lot of wives and a lot of money, and the commonality you see with a lot of cult leaders is that the leaders end up becoming very wealthy, they end up with a lot of sex, and they end up with a lot of influence. 


[00:04:05] Now, you can make the argument that the disciples ended up with a sizable amount of influence, because they did have churches that were under them, and they did spend a lot of time building churches throughout the ancient world. They didn't enjoy anything from that, like they didn't gain any benefit. 


[00:04:24] They didn't gain any monetary benefit. They were constantly on the run. They were constantly being put in prison. They were constantly being flogged. If we go just based off of the Apostle Paul's writing about himself. He, he talks in one of his letters about how he's constantly on the run, he's been attacked by bandits, he's been attacked by wild animals, he's had to abandon cities multiple times, he's been stoned multiple times, like, the disciples didn't have a very easy time of it. 


[00:04:50] Nobody in the early church had an easy time of it. A lot of them died, and a lot of them died horribly. And a lot of them ended up dying far from home. There were a number of disciples who ended up going as far north as modern Russia, and supposedly, we don't know for certain if that's the case, but that is what's reported. 


[00:05:10] And reportedly, off into India, off into Africa. Like, they went all over the place, which was very difficult for them to do at that time. And there was no reason to do it. They didn't speak the language, they didn't know the people. And they ended up dying away from their friends, away from their family, away from anyone who would have shed a tear for them. 


[00:05:28] Why did they do that? 


[00:05:29] Cody: No, they didn't live these fantastic lives and, oh, they were world travelers, but they were constantly running from the law. World travel 


[00:05:38] Gina: meant a lot. It was a lot different back then. We didn't have airplanes and, like, they walked or rode a donkey, like, or a horse. It was not easy. It took months. 


[00:05:51] It was scary. Like, it was probably lonely. 


[00:05:54] Ben: You can make the argument for some of them that they came from nothing and had nothing to lose. Okay, fine. Matthew was a tax collector. He was a wealthy man before he became a disciple of Christ. And he lost his wealth, gave it all up, and he started an entirely new life, essentially, of poverty. 


[00:06:10] And, uh, Okay, you may say, all right, well, whatever. That's Matthew. I don't care about that. What about Paul? Well, the 


[00:06:14] Gina: Chosen makes Matthew special needs, so. 


[00:06:19] Cody: Yeah, he didn't 


[00:06:20] Ben: have his wits about him. I guess not. Well, if the Chosen says it, then obviously. Saying that about the Disciples is one thing. Saying that about Matthew, okay, he's the exception. 


[00:06:31] Maybe he thought he could get more wealthy by literally giving up everything and doing the dumbest thing possible. Okay, whatever. But Paul. Paul is the biggest example of a person who had literally no reason to turn to Christ. He was actively capturing and, if Paul's to be believed, executing them. He considered himself a murderer. 


[00:06:50] He considered himself a killer of Christians. He put them in prison at the very least, we know that. And he was actively hunting the early church. He was a man who was considered a Pharisee among Pharisees, a learned man among learned men. And he was an up and coming religious leader. And that gave him a lot of pull in the age that he was growing up in. 


[00:07:09] He gave a whole lot up. Not just money, because he could have had that. And not just influence, because he had that. He gave up his actual life, and not just his ability to live, his ability to breathe. He gave up the full comforts of his life. And he gave up the respect and admiration of his peers. And he gave up his friendships. 


[00:07:32] He gave up every aspect of his life that he could possibly give up. And he followed Christ. He didn't have anything to gain by doing that. None of these guys had anything to gain by following the path that they did, and they did. 


[00:07:46] Gina: Okay, so let's just assume that they weren't lying, but couldn't the resurrection story have just developed as a legend over time? 


[00:07:58] Ben: Well, we kind of covered this earlier. 


[00:08:00] Gina: Okay. 


[00:08:01] Ben: But Going into it a little bit more, most of the accounts that we have from various events, especially ones from prior to 2, 000 years ago, those were written literally hundreds of years after the fact. So, Hannibal is actually a very good example. There's this ancient general Hannibal from Carthage, and he rode into Rome using war elephants, and He, uh, he went through the mountains, and there are two different accounts of him doing this, and both of them contradict to his pretty significant, irreconcilable degree. 


[00:08:35] But from these, we extrapolate that Hannibal existed, that he tried to invade Rome using war elephants, he went through the mountains, and he came close to actually attacking Rome itself, the capital city, but in the end, he wasn't successful and he left. But that's from accounts that were written 400 years after the fact, and that's not uncommon. 


[00:08:57] Cody: Who's the guy who tried to, or who did, melt a mountain with vinegar? 


[00:09:01] Ben: Well, that would have been Hannibal, supposedly. 


[00:09:03] Cody: Yeah, that's what I thought. Same story, right? Yeah, 


[00:09:05] Ben: same story. So, yeah, Hannibal is one of the more famous and easily referenced examples, but even going past that, there aren't that many sources that we have where we can say, We definitely have copies from close to the time it was written, and the Bible is one of those things where even putting past the Old Testament. 


[00:09:29] The New Testament, we have stuff where it's pretty certain we've got stuff that's written within a hundred years of Jesus's death. I think the latest that they'll put anything on is the Gospel of John, and they'll say it was written by year 90. Even the most ardent skeptic will put the earliest at year 70, but even folks like Bart Ehrman will say, no, the Gospel of Mark was definitely written prior to that, maybe the year 40. 


[00:09:54] That's practically unheard of in terms of ancient times, where we can legitimately say, okay, we know these are definitely contemporary, these were definitely written at the time, the, uh, the actual emperor at the time of Jesus birth. I believe that was Tiberius, right? The writings that specifically talk about his reign, I think were written about a hundred years after his life and his death. 


[00:10:16] It's just not something that happened very often, where you would find something that was written within ten years. And the best estimates, I would argue, the most compelling estimates, put the earliest gospel to be Within 10 years, probably even earlier than that, and Lee Strobel has gone into some depths about exactly why that is, and you can look at that in the case, both the case for Christ and the case for Easter and the case for the Resurrection. 


[00:10:40] The point is that the Gospels are an incredibly unique work because nothing has ever been covered to the extent. that Jesus's life has been, and nothing has been covered to the extent that the Gospels have been by so many other sources, and there were so many people who were invested in copying it in its entirety. 


[00:10:59] There are so many copies from within the first 300 years that we have, and there is no other event in history that we can say we have anything even close to that, and still people claim that we just don't know. 


[00:11:12] Cody: Do you think there's any value in the fact that there's three, like the synoptic gospels, the Matthew, Mark, and Luke, being three different authors but having pretty much the same storyline? 


[00:11:24] Ben: So is it that they were basically cheating off of each other? Yeah, 


[00:11:28] Cody: well, I've heard that before but also you'd think that you have like Mark is usually regarded as the earliest written But you also have these other Gospels that are written at different times by different clearly differently people we can confirm that just by writing style and how they were composed but Also, it's a pretty identical story. 


[00:11:52] Do you think that adds value to this argument at all? 


[00:11:56] Ben: Well, the strange thing is that you'll get a lot of atheists who say that there are so many different contradictions between the Gospels. So it's bizarre that you will hear both of these arguments simultaneously. It's, oh, they're too similar, therefore they just used one of the earliest Gospels and copied that. 


[00:12:10] And then you'll simultaneously hear, Oh, there are so many contradictions between them, therefore they couldn't possibly be referring to the same thing. There's a guy named J. Warner Wallace who talks about this in Cold Case Christianity, as well as his podcast, and a bunch of different places. But, the gist of it is that, from a criminal law perspective, if you were interviewing a bunch of different witnesses, you would expect there to be slight deviations between their stories. 


[00:12:35] But, For the most part, line up. And the slight deviations don't mean they're lying or that they're wrong. For instance, one of the supposed contradictions has to do with the time of day where the ladies were going to the tomb. And in one gospel, it talks about it still being dark. And another one, it talks about it being gray. 


[00:12:54] And another one talks about it just barely being light. Are you honestly telling me that's a contradiction? All of them are referring to the same time of day. It's early morning. It's really early morning. And one of them can be talking about when they started. As in, it's really dark out when they left. 


[00:13:11] One can be talking about as they were heading there, talking to each other. It was getting gray. And by the time they reached the tomb, it was light. Just barely. That's not contradictions, and that's the kind of thing you would expect from different witness testimonies, because each person is thinking about it slightly differently, and they're focusing on a different aspect that has meaning to them. 


[00:13:31] Gina: Yeah, also, if you've got somebody ten years after it happened writing a story about it, they're not going to remember every detail perfectly. So gotta have some grace there. 


[00:13:40] Ben: Sure. So we don't even need to say that the Gospels are infallible. That's something that I happen to believe, and we can get into that in the next session. 


[00:13:49] And I do think Cody agrees. I think Gina disagrees with us on that, but we'll get to that. It's going to be an interesting discussion, I think. I'm really looking forward to it. We don't even need to go as far as saying that they're infallible. If it's just witness testimony between a bunch of different people who happen to have seen or known Jesus or happen to know the people who were there. 


[00:14:10] In this case, the women who went to the tomb, because the women didn't specifically write the Gospels. They told the story to the disciples, and the disciples wrote it down, or people who knew the disciples wrote it down, or Luke who was investigating it wrote it down. The point is that those are still first hand accounts. 


[00:14:25] And so, they line up to the point that you would expect for people who actually are telling the truth and were actually there. 


[00:14:32] Cody: Agreed. 


[00:14:33] Gina: I agree. 


[00:14:35] Ben: I was trying to put you on the spot, Gina, it's okay. The 


[00:14:38] Gina: Bible is not a lie, like, I generally No, no, no. I 


[00:14:40] Ben: think that it's something, just briefly going into the infallibility of the Gospels, there is some discussion about what exactly that means. 


[00:14:49] And I am looking forward to fully defining our terms and then finding where we all line up because we agree on so many more things than we disagree on. And I think that as a general rule, that's the case for all Christians. I do think that there is a danger in getting hung up on small details that we really don't need to disagree all that intensely about, and sometimes we do. 


[00:15:10] Gina: And I want to encourage anybody that's listening not to take our word for anything we've just said. Please go do your own research and don't let us spoon feed you because that's not our intention at all. 


[00:15:21] Cody: So, where do the prophecies come into play here? So, you have all of these Old Testament prophecies, and how many were really made about Jesus? 


[00:15:35] Gina: Can you define prophecy before you explain the question, or answer the question? 


[00:15:41] Ben: Yeah, so, as far as Christianity and Judaism goes, like, when we talk about prophecy, we'll have a slightly different definition than what the common definition now would be. Because if you say prophecy, you think, okay, the future. 


[00:15:55] It's a statement about the future, something that hasn't happened yet. The gift of prophecy for Christianity or the act of prophecy in Judaism is something a little bit different. It's essentially a revelation from God. That revelation can be about something that is happening now, something that is It can be about something that happened in the past. 


[00:16:12] It can be about something that has yet to happen. And it can be information about a person specifically. It doesn't have to be about grandiose events, great battles yet to happen, the end of the world. Sometimes it's a revelation about something that someone has done. For instance, Nathan the prophet was given a prophecy, what we would call a word of knowledge, about the king David. 


[00:16:32] Specifically, God revealed to the prophet that David had killed Uriah the Hittite, the actual husband of the woman Bathsheba who David had gotten pregnant. That is Technically prophecy, because it is a revelation that God revealed to the prophet Nathan. That's why they're called prophets, because they hear from God. 


[00:16:55] They prophesy, they reveal what is revealed to them by God. So, when we're talking about prophecies about Jesus, obviously we are specifically referring to things that prophets were revealed about the coming Messiah. About a king, a conqueror, a man who was going to come in the clouds with honor and glory. 


[00:17:16] So, there were a lot of details that were revealed about a figure that was going to come in Israel's future. And it was revealed throughout the entirety of the Bible, at various times, through various prophets. Some people you wouldn't even think of as prophets, like King David, but is technically a prophet. 


[00:17:31] And, The, uh, the overview, what people were expecting is that he was going to be a king over Israel, that he was going to vanquish Israel's enemies, that he was going to bring about an age of peace for Israel as well as for the rest of the world. It's a lot of stuff like that. And there were a number of details that were revealed specifically about him and where he would come. 


[00:17:52] Daniel chapter 9. Is actually a very specific prophecy. So, a lot of times when you hear the term prophecy, it's like, oh, okay, so there's some vague, wibbly wobbly, timey wimey thing. It's, there is, there will be on a set date, a man, and he exists, and he will wear a shirt, and the shirt will be of a color. 


[00:18:12] What color, who can say, but he will be asked a question and the question will be answered and the answer to that question will be one of sustained glory and interest and they'll use a lot of weird words like, yeah, you think, okay, so Nostradamus, great. We have a bunch of weird vagueness that doesn't help us at all, and it doesn't seem to serve any purpose, but it's a reference to something that will happen in the future. 


[00:18:36] When it comes to prophecies about Jesus, it's actually pretty specific. And the amazing thing about Daniel chapter 9, and Mike Winger, Pastor Mike Winger, has done a very good, like, hour long deep dive into Daniel chapter 9. But as just the brief CliffsNotes version, it's a reference, a timeline specifically from the point at which there was construction on the wall in Jerusalem. 


[00:19:01] From that point to when the Messiah was going to come, which is one of the reasons why, when you read the Gospels, it seems like people are expecting the Messiah at that time. There's multiple references to that. A lot of different people were expecting the Messiah, and it wasn't just people in Israel. 


[00:19:20] There were the Magi who were expecting something, and they follow the star, and they find Jesus. Daniel chapter 9 is one of the big reasons for that, because Daniel provides a specific number of years from one point, the starting point, to the final point, which is the birth of Christ, and it is exact. And if you follow it, and you understand exactly what it is Daniel is saying, he is being very specific and very intentional. 


[00:19:43] With the number of years, and the starting point, and the end point, when exactly Jesus is born. And it's an incredibly precise prophecy. It's really interesting when you dig into it. So again, I would really encourage everyone to look at Pastor Mike Winger's deep dive into Daniel chapter 9 specifically. 


[00:19:59] But going past that, There are additional prophecies. 


[00:20:03] Gina: Can I ask a question? Yeah. How many total prophecies are there? 


[00:20:06] Ben: What was it? There's someone who's counted all of them. I think it was, what, 800 and something? It's up there. I don't know the number. I thought 


[00:20:13] Gina: it was 900 and something. 


[00:20:14] Ben: Oh, well, what's a hundred prophecies between friends? 


[00:20:16] But yeah, there was the prophecy given in Micah, but you, Bethlehem, Ephrathah, though you be the smallest among the clans of Israel, out of you will come someone whose origins are of old from ancient times. They knew that the Messiah was going to be born in Bethlehem. They knew the year that he was going to be born. 


[00:20:35] They knew that he was going to be an Azrite on top of that. They knew he was going to come out of Egypt. There were a lot of different things that they knew. And it was specifically due to prophecies, and Jesus fulfilled all of those. 


[00:20:47] Gina: There were 456. 


[00:20:49] Ben: Oh, see, I only had twice as many. Though I do think, to be fair, there is some debate over the number of actual prophecies. 


[00:20:58] Gina: And also how many were actually fulfilled. 


[00:21:00] Ben: Yes. So, there does come some disagreement between Christians and Jews in terms of what specifically is a prophecy for Jesus and what isn't, obviously, because not every single Jewish person is a Christian. But one of the really big things is the prophecy that's outlined in Isaiah 53, which is very interesting. 


[00:21:21] Gina: Isaiah 53. 4 in the NIV says, Surely He took up our pain and bore our suffering, yet we considered Him punished by God, stricken by Him, and afflicted. Should I continue? 


[00:21:37] Ben: You can if you want, but essentially the entirety of Isaiah chapter 53. Sounds like an entire outline for Jesus's life and his death. 


[00:21:46] Oftentimes, if you will read it with a Jewish person, who has never read Isaiah 53, and odds are they haven't read Isaiah 53, they'll think that you're reading specifically from the New Testament, because that's how closely it mirrors it. 


[00:22:00] Gina: Well, you had to write a paper on that last semester for school. 


[00:22:03] Cody: Did I? 


[00:22:04] Gina: Yeah. I 


[00:22:04] Cody: don't remember. That's a shame. That would have been something very interesting to go into right now. I write too many papers for school, so I don't remember that one. 


[00:22:12] Ben: But yeah, there is, so yeah, there is a claim that Isaiah 53 is not actually talking about a person, but about Israel generally. And I believe you included a nice little rebuttal to that in our outline here. 


[00:22:24] Cody: Yeah, so, the general idea, or what a lot of practicing, current practicing Jews that didn't fully complete themselves into Christianity. is that Isaiah 53 is actually talking about Israel as a whole rather than a specific person, but reading the Talmud and some different items there, early rabbis and Jewish believers back then believed it was about a specific person until Jesus came, and it seems like there was this huge cover up with Isaiah 53. 


[00:22:57] Ben: It's understandable, because it does kind of directly seem to be implicating him as the Messiah. 


[00:23:04] Cody: Yeah. And there's also like just doing some research on Isaiah 53 in general, there is a lot of debate of whether it's actually forbidden to read in certain Jewish cultures and a lot of. Still practicing Jewish folk will say that it's not and they still read it, but actually being over in Israel, that is not what we were told over there by people in Israel. 


[00:23:26] So if you hear that rebuttal, it's not true from when I was in Israel from people who are still Jewish. 


[00:23:34] Ben: So you don't get much more authentic than the Jews from Israel. 


[00:23:38] Gina: Gosh, they're very interesting people. 


[00:23:41] Cody: Yeah. 


[00:23:41] Gina: They have a lot of hats. 


[00:23:44] Cody: That one, I couldn't believe how much it cost. The, it was made out of what, beaver or something? 


[00:23:52] Gina: It was like a big, Cylinder. 


[00:23:54] Cody: I didn't even realize there had beaver out there. . I think it was be, it was Beaver, right? I 


[00:23:59] Gina: don't remember. It was some sort of 


[00:24:01] Cody: wombat 


[00:24:01] Gina: animal, but it was meant to be like almost like a sign of humiliation to wear a hat like that because you're not worthy to have your head uncovered in the presence of the Lord. 


[00:24:12] Cody: Oh, I didn't, I thought it was a status symbol. 'cause I thought. No. 


[00:24:16] Gina: Well, it might be, but. I don't know. I thought it 


[00:24:19] Cody: was for, like, Ken of a rabbi or something is why they wore that, but. I 


[00:24:25] Gina: didn't research it that greatly. 


[00:24:27] Cody: Probably making myself sound like an idiot. 


[00:24:29] Gina: Yeah. We saw a lot of hats. 


[00:24:31] Cody: Yeah, there's lots of hats. 


[00:24:33] Yeah. They 


[00:24:34] Ben: do like their hats over there, don't they? 


[00:24:35] Cody: I like their hats. 


[00:24:37] Ben: Hey, who doesn't like hats? 


[00:24:38] Gina: Well, like, just the way that they dress themselves. Like, they take a lot of care in how they appear. Like, they were always in a suit and dressed to the nines. 


[00:24:47] Cody: Israeli police. By far have the coolest logo and hat I have ever seen in my life. 


[00:24:54] What's their logo? It's like an eagle, I think. I can't remember specifically. I looked so hard to find one and the closest anybody could get was a military hat, but I wish I could find one of those. Oh, that's a shame. 


[00:25:08] Gina: We're like so far off topic. No, no, it's 


[00:25:10] Ben: okay. It's okay. Alright, getting back in, because I think we've covered this pretty well. 


[00:25:15] I think we've addressed the evidence, I think we've addressed a lot of the different arguments and the different approaches, but in the end that doesn't really explain why it is he needed to die. So why? Assuming all of this happened, assuming that the disciples weren't lying, and assuming that his life, death, and resurrection really did happen, why was it even necessary to begin with? 


[00:25:38] Gina: Look at Old Testament sacrifice. The only way that God would interact with them, forgive them, bless them, whatever, was if they offered a sacrifice, if they needed to apologize, if they needed to just be in His presence, or even like there were regimented certain times of the year you went and you sacrificed. 


[00:25:56] So, like, why would we be excused, how would we, how else would we be excused from that need without the Messiah? 


[00:26:07] Ben: Well, so do you think it is that sacrifice in and of itself is the only way that sin could be forgiven? 


[00:26:13] Gina: If I look at the evidence, yes. 


[00:26:16] Ben: So why is it that it's necessary for sacrifice to be done in order to forgive sin? 


[00:26:21] Gina: You haven't answered. 


[00:26:23] Cody: I don't know as much about the sacrificial system as I should. 


[00:26:27] Gina: We all have to pay, right? We gotta pay something. 


[00:26:30] Cody: We don't, because we have Jesus. 


[00:26:32] Gina: Well, no, but 


[00:26:33] Ben: Well, so let's expound on that a little more. So, in ancient Hebrew culture, there was the concept of sacrifice. So if you had committed sins, and you knew that you had, or even if you didn't know that you committed sins, but you expected that you probably had at some point, and you wanted to atone for them. 


[00:26:50] There was a process of sacrifice where you would take, there were different types of sacrifices, there were free will offerings, there were fellowship offerings. But the general gist is that you would take the best of something that you had, generally a living animal, typically a sheep, a goat. And it had to be a flawless sheep, a flawless goat, it had to be the oldest, it had to be the first born. 


[00:27:11] And then you would take that and you would slaughter it. And then you would burn it on an altar. And that was the process of sacrifice by which you would atone for the sins that you had committed. Now, why would killing an animal cover your sin? 


[00:27:26] Gina: I don't know. Because if you think about, like, even just, there's certain things in the Old Testament that, if you really think about, like, the original covenant, it was interesting how they, you animal body parts all over the ground and walked through them symbolically. 


[00:27:45] I don't know the logic behind that. 


[00:27:48] Ben: Well, so there was another form of sacrifice that was interesting. It's the idea of scapegoating. So an individual goat would be taken. All of the sins of Israel would be symbolically placed upon this goat and it would wander off into the desert to die. So what do you think that's about? 


[00:28:06] Gina: Me specifically? 


[00:28:07] Ben: Either of you 


[00:28:07] Cody: guys. I 


[00:28:09] Gina: think you owe us an explanation, sir. 


[00:28:11] Cody: I honestly have no idea what it's about. I know that's where we get scapegoat, and I don't know the true meaning behind that. 


[00:28:20] Gina: I have a feeling we're about to get a lesson from Professor Ben. 


[00:28:24] Ben: I don't think you're about to get a lesson. 


[00:28:27] I was just curious if you guys had any insight on that before I started picking my way through it. 


[00:28:34] Gina: I don't have, like, a very articulate way of explaining it other than, like, someone's got to pay. 


[00:28:42] Ben: There have been a number of different people who've written on this and provided explanations, and there are certain things that are hinted at in the Bible as well. 


[00:28:48] But it's the idea that you by yourself can't possibly atone for your own sin. So, yeah. Yeah. And something does need to be given in place of what it is that you've taken from God. Because essentially sin is theft from God. You are taking yourself, and you are imposing your will on your own life rather than God's. 


[00:29:07] And you have separated yourself from him, and so you need to pay him back for what it is that you have stolen. Now the thing is, you're paying him back with something he already owns. But, there is the thought that it wasn't that these sacrifices were actually making any atonement for sin at all. Because ultimately, the Bible also says in the Old Testament, is it sacrifice and the blood of animals that God truly desires, or is it obedience? 


[00:29:35] The idea is that these don't actually cover sin. Killing an animal and using its blood doesn't cover sin. But it is establishing, as part of the culture, the idea that sacrifice is needed. Some kind of sacrifice is needed. And it works more symbolically to reinforce up until the time of Christ, when simultaneously, sacrifice is stopped. 


[00:29:58] There's this reinforced up until his birth and his death that something needs to happen for the sins, not just of Israel, but all mankind, because the rest of mankind wasn't sacrificing. So what about their sins? 


[00:30:13] Gina: Can I ask an off script question? 


[00:30:15] Ben: Certainly. 


[00:30:16] Gina: Why don't the Jews still do sacrifice? 


[00:30:21] Ben: Well, oddly enough, that was part of prophecy as well. 


[00:30:23] Gina: Okay. 


[00:30:24] Ben: But the main reason is because the temple no longer exists. So, yeah, the temple was demolished in, I think, year 70 


[00:30:31] Cody: AD, 


[00:30:32] Ben: and after the destruction of the temple, it was prophesied that for a time, sacrifice would no longer be done. And so the reason that Jews specifically don't sacrifice is because there's no temple to do it in. 


[00:30:43] But it is believed that one day the temple will be rebuilt, and then sacrifices to God will continue. 


[00:30:49] Gina: Interesting. Thank you. 


[00:30:50] Ben: No problem. But all that goes back to the ultimate sacrifice, which is Jesus. So why is it that Jesus's sacrifice was necessary? Well, ultimately there is a price that all humanity owes, and it's one that we can't possibly pay because ultimately the only price that will satisfy is our own lives because that's what's been taken. 


[00:31:10] Now, the only other way that could possibly pay, because God is both good and just, and so for him to take action, he needs to do it in a way that is both good and just. A crime has been committed and there is an imbalance. Something has been taken from him and it needs to be paid back, or at the very least something of equivalent value does need to be put up, because in our own common law, if someone steals from you. 


[00:31:39] You are owed a balance, and that can be forgiven, but ultimately, that imbalance still exists if I've stolen 100 from you. And I don't pay it back and you forgive it, that 100 imbalance still exists. True justice hasn't been done. Grace has been given, but true justice hasn't been done. 


[00:31:55] Gina: So that would explain why God couldn't just forgive us without sacrificing Jesus. 


[00:31:59] Ben: Correct. Because the imbalance would still exist, and He is equal parts good and just. So rather than allowing all of us to have to pay the price for our own sins by surrendering our own lives as payment, He sacrificed his own in exchange for ours to eliminate any costs, any imbalance that would exist. 


[00:32:18] It wasn't the sacrifice of animals. It wasn't the sacrifice and the donating of blood and grain and all of that. All of that was just a type, an indication of what was needed and what was to come. And on that foundation, on that symbology, was built the idea of Jesus coming and sacrificing himself. For all of us. 


[00:32:39] Once and for all people for all time. So yeah, that's my take on it. I don't know if it's correct, but it's the explanation that makes the most sense to me. And this isn't something that I've specifically come up with. This is something that Dr. David Wood has talked about, and I happen to agree with his explanation. 


[00:32:54] I think that it's a solid one. 


[00:32:56] Gina: I believe, for me, the helpful thing about the explanation you just gave is that it's really hard for new Christians, because I've been there and I've talked to a lot of them. In fact, one of them even thought that the Old Testament and the New Testament were two completely separate books. 


[00:33:13] So, this is maybe helpful for somebody who, you looks at the, like, New Testament relationship aspect with God and wonders where that is in the Old Testament. And I think if you can understand that the obedience aspect was there in the Old Testament through sacrifice, like, we're still called to obedience to Christ, but it's through different means now, and that helps explain how God is unchanging, because His expectation for obedience has always been there. 


[00:33:47] It's just played out differently after Jesus. 


[00:33:50] Ben: Yeah, I agree. I think that's a very good way of putting it. One of our last couple questions is, as we're winding down here, assuming everything that we've talked about is true again, and assuming Jesus sacrificed himself for my sins, and assuming that was necessary, and assuming that it did pay the price for my sin, why do I need to believe in him in order to go to heaven? 


[00:34:09] Hasn't that price already been paid? 


[00:34:12] Gina: There is no point at all to believing any of it without the relationship. That's my, like, personal opinion, but that's it. Like, I've never met a Christian that was like, well, it was the most reasonable thing that I heard and I'm just going with it. Like, you have to, in your heart, believe and know and acknowledge through relationship. 


[00:34:33] And there's a lot more than just saying, okay, it's true and that's good enough. You have to actually have that relationship. And I know for people like Cody, it's hard because You don't have that like back and forth like you don't have God sitting in a fourth chair in this room with us like Chiming in so it's hard to imagine what that relationship looks like But you cannot say that you believe in Jesus and not also have a relationship with him 


[00:35:02] Cody: I agree. 


[00:35:02] I think that looks different for a lot of people. And then you get into different aspects of the divine hiddenness and all of that conversation. But the relational aspect is very important and kind of what sets apart. You can have all the facts in the world. We've just went through why we believe it to be true, but also why it's reasonable to believe that this isn't some far fetched, whimsical idea. 


[00:35:30] There is. Facts that we base our beliefs on and evidences of that, the resurrection itself and the belief in the resurrection would actually Kind of remove everybody's blind faith theory because you can't blindly believe that somebody raised from the dead. You have to have evidence of that to believe it. 


[00:35:52] I guess you could, but I think that makes you ignorant, but that's beside the point. But you can have all the evidence in the world, but without the Relational aspect. And I think we talked about this a little bit on another podcast. I don't think you'll fully get there and fully understand. 


[00:36:12] Ben: But I think part of the question, and in one way or another, I've heard this sentiment echoed in a number of different ways, but it's the idea that, okay, Jesus sacrificed himself, paid for my sins. 


[00:36:23] Why don't I just get into heaven? Why do I need this relationship? Not denying that the relationship has value or that it wouldn't be good to have a relationship with him But you have eternity to have some kind of relationship with him presumably. So why would you need to believe in him now? 


[00:36:39] Cody: Why would you need to believe in him now? 


[00:36:41] Because you only truly believe the things that you do I don't think you can if I believe that the Sun is going to murder me when I go outside I wouldn't go outside You And that would be a belief. If you believe that your sin separates you and could cause you not to live eternally, why would you not? 


[00:37:05] change the way that you're living. 


[00:37:07] Gina: If you believe that Jesus is real, and that he died for your sins, and that all of this is reasonable, then you also believe everything he told you in the Bible, all of the things he called you to, which is to love your neighbor as yourself, and to spread the good news, and to treat people with kindness. 


[00:37:27] And if you are not living out the things that Jesus called you to, then you're not living in relationship with him, and you're not obeying him, and obedience and repentance is a condition of salvation. Like, it's not works based, but you have to submit in those ways. 


[00:37:44] Ben: Yeah, at this point, You aren't being punished for your own sins specifically. 


[00:37:50] It's that you are choosing to reject the grace that you've been given. That's absolutely something you can still do. So, inherent in this question, I think, is a bit of arrogance, because it's, oh, well, so, you know, Jesus sacrificed himself in my place. I deserve death. I deserved an eternal separation from God as payment for literally stealing from the Almighty, from taking from Him what is His, and making it mine. 


[00:38:14] He sacrificed himself and has literally condemned himself to that darkness. I should still be able to go to heaven. No matter what I do, no matter what I feel, no matter what I think, I don't even need to have a relationship with him. It's like a rich kid whose dad is bailing him out every single time he goes to jail and still badmouths his dad and has a horrible relationship with him and his dad is constantly trying to help him. 


[00:38:41] I very much get that kind of image. from the people who take this position, but regardless of that, we all, we did kind of address this in whether or not God is good and how he can be good and what goodness is. Ultimately, when you finally come face to face with God, you have a choice. At that point, you have full knowledge of who you are and who God is, and there is no question anymore. 


[00:39:04] There's no doubt. There is only, do you want to spend an eternity with God or do you not? If you don't want to spend an eternity with God, the only alternative is godlessness, and godlessness is torture. So, it isn't just that God has sacrificed himself for you and paid the price for your sins. It's that do you want to spend an eternity with him or not? 


[00:39:26] If you want to spend an eternity with this guy, And you don't love him, why would you even, you're not going to go to heaven. If you don't love him, but you just want an eternity of an easy life, that's selfishness. That is actually rejecting God, because it's not who God is. And I think a lot of people have this misconception where they're thinking, Okay, so there's this nice place and this bad place, obviously I'd always want to go to the nice place. 


[00:39:51] Because being in the presence of God, and for those of us who've been there, it is a beautiful thing. It's an incredible thing, but it's also a terrifying thing. And if you're not in the right space where you've been seeking him consistently, and through fasting and prayer and fear and trembling, you have tried your best to live a life that honors him, and you have a heart that aches for him and what he aches for, and instead you're coming in with arrogance, and with your own feelings at heart. 


[00:40:18] God has revealed himself to people like that. And every story I've ever heard. of God revealing himself to someone like that has been abject terror. You can't spend an eternity with God and be who you are if that's who you are. So either you have to give that up. You have to choose to accept God, Christ, who He is. 


[00:40:39] And like Gina said, you live the life that He's presented you with. Do what he's asked you to do, or you choose your own thing, and God will honor your choice. At this point, it isn't because you automatically get it because of your sin, it's because it's what you choose. 


[00:40:56] Gina: So there's a book I want to reference for anybody that's seeking or wanting to kind of figure out where they're going. 


[00:41:03] sort of add on their spectrum of relationship with Jesus. And the book is called Four Chair Discipling by Dan Spader, and it talks about like the four phases of like a person, not even necessarily a Christian. And if you get stuck in chair one, like you are, You're spiritually dead. You're helpless. And if you can move past that by admitting that and asking for somebody to lead you, whether that's Jesus or your church or whatever, then you can move on to the next chair. 


[00:41:32] But ultimately, if you choose to believe that The sacrifice Jesus made on the cross was good enough and you don't have to do anything. You're going to be stuck in that chair forever. So if you want to pick up that ebook, it's not very expensive, but it will help you understand where you are and where you need to go. 


[00:41:52] Because it's a process, and you don't just arrive suddenly because you've decided that you believe and you think you're obedient, you have to actually talk and walk the same thing. 


[00:42:03] Cody: Yeah, and to further on that and just add more understanding what Ben was asking in that question is, You can't take Jesus into your sin, like, that doesn't work. 


[00:42:15] You can't drag, hold Jesus in one hand and drag him into your sin with you. That's not how it works. So, we believe, I think, collectively, that it's a choice. If you don't think you have that choice, then It's going to happen anyway, so it doesn't really matter, but you have to physically choose. It's not like Jesus died, yes, and that was good enough, is good enough for all, but that doesn't mean all are going to be saved no matter what. 


[00:42:43] This isn't like a universal atonement. It is, you have to choose, you have to change who you are. It's not unconditional atonement either. A lot of people think that it is just, oh, Jesus loves me unconditionally. Yeah, he loves you, but, you know, it's, I think it's endued basically. Talks about loving the person but hating that the sin stained garment from the flesh and you know That is what it is. 


[00:43:13] Ben: Yeah, I agree. So all that being said I think that leads nicely into our final question, which is how can you actually know him? 


[00:43:24] Gina: Read your Bible not a book about Jesus not a podcast about Jesus Not what your best friend's mom says about Jesus Read your Bible. My family thinks that they are Christian because they've gone to a seminar or because somebody gave them a devotional for their birthday, but they didn't actually use it. 


[00:43:48] Like, you cannot categorize yourself as a Christian, and it's not because it's a club or elitist. You cannot categorize yourself as a Christian if you've never explored God's Word. And I use the word explored because it is an exploration. Like each story is incredibly interesting. Granted, there are some like. 


[00:44:10] genealogy lines and how to build a tabernacle and all of that. But there are some very amazing stories in the Bible that you would probably never hear about if you hadn't opened it. So read your Bible. 


[00:44:23] Cody: No, it's, that's awesome. It's all on a personal level, but I think people don't understand Sometimes that when you're reading books by other people or listening to podcasts or listening to sermons You're getting God through the lens of that person. 


[00:44:42] You're not getting God Experiencing God yourself. It needs to happen on a personal level not through the lens of Joel Osteen or another one of the Francis Chan. Get your knowledge of God on a personal level and supplement with other things. 


[00:45:02] Gina: If your daily dose of Jesus is somebody's quippy little two sentence Facebook post that they share every single day, you're not You should feel convicted about it. 


[00:45:16] You cannot be spoon fed by another person in order to have a sustainable relationship with Christ. 


[00:45:22] Cody: And that's not saying that you need to drop everything you're doing, sell your house, sell your car, divorce your wife, and go preach the gospel, because I've heard that on the other side of things. God made this life. 


[00:45:33] Even if sin wasn't the intention, and that's where we are, but we are still given this opportunity and this life to live it. And that is pleasing to God in itself. That doesn't mean you aren't a good Christian if you don't read your Bible every second of every day and preach it either every second of every day. 


[00:45:50] That's not what we're saying. 


[00:45:52] Gina: No, just be without excuse. 


[00:45:55] Ben: Yeah, so there's the term, Christian was originally a derogatory term and it was meant to be taken as little Christ. It was something that the Romans would use on Christians initially, where they were basically saying, oh, look at these little Christs running around. 


[00:46:10] Aren't they cute? They just love this Jesus guy so much. They wanna be just like him on these little Christs running around. And the term stuck because that's ultimately what we're called to be. We're called to reflect Christ in our own lives. If you want to be a Christian, if you want to know Him, you should be His mini me. 


[00:46:30] You should be a reflection of Him, albeit a poor one, because that's all we can ever be. But you should be seeking to be more like Him, and in seeking to be more like Him, you will come to know Him. And, like Gina and Cody have said, the only real way that you can do that is to know what it is He's told you, to know what He's commanded you, and to know who He was, who He is. 


[00:46:55] If you live your life according to what it is He's told you to do, if you take up your cross and you follow Him, you will absolutely come to know Him, and you will come to know Him intimately. But there's a warning that comes with that. There's a reason He describes it as taking up your cross. There's a lot of Christians now who They always say, my faith is private. 


[00:47:15] It's mine. It's my personal thing, and I feel like that's fine. Yes, your relationship with Jesus is personal. On a personal level, you know him, you love him, you respect him, and it is an incredibly intimate thing, but it is not private. He never asked you to make it private. He doesn't want a private relationship. 


[00:47:35] He wants to be out with you in public. He wants to be holding your hand. He wants that open relationship where everyone can see who you are, who it is you love, who it is you're with. 


[00:47:46] Gina: Listen, babe. 


[00:47:47] Ben: I'm 


[00:47:49] Gina: not gonna wear your ring. But I'll be your wife. 


[00:47:52] Cody: Oh dear. 


[00:47:54] Gina: If you treated your spouse or your best friend the way that we treat Jesus, they wouldn't be with you. 


[00:47:59] Cody: Absolutely. No, and if you look at things you truly love too, like, even if it's something stupid like a restaurant, you're telling people about it. I just had this great sushi. This movie was so awesome. You should watch it this this product. It was great. You should really get it 


[00:48:19] Ben: Yeah, guilty pleasure. I absolutely loved Puss in Boots 2 And I've talked to Cody and Gina about it. 


[00:48:27] I talked to everybody about it And it doesn't matter how dumb it sounds, how childish it sounds, I love the movie and I can't talk to people enough about it, I can't recommend it enough. That is a stupid thing for me to talk to people about. And it's silly, and there may be people who judge me for that. 


[00:48:43] That doesn't matter because I love the movie. I enjoyed it. And I want other people to enjoy it. Because there's a connection that establishes between me and that other person. If we all love something collectively together, and that's another thread amongst a massive web of threads that can connect your life and bring someone closer to you even more intimately than before. 


[00:49:02] It's another thing you can enjoy together, you can talk about. And it's another part of a foundation on which you can build an even greater life. And that is a stupid kid's movie. Jesus is the full foundation. He is the heart. He's the heart of an entire belief system, he's the heart of your morality, he's the heart of your feelings, your passions, your dreams. 


[00:49:24] And you want to keep that to yourself? 


[00:49:29] Gina: The hardest thing about being a first generation Christian is seeing hopelessness in my family and wanting them to have the hope that I have and knowing how totally transformed I am because of Jesus. There would be something seriously wrong with my faith if I could look at my family and say, it's okay. 


[00:49:51] They can go to hell. 


[00:49:52] Cody: Yeah. How do you not want that for other people? Not the going to hell part, but Jesus for other people. And if you're not telling people, if you have the mentality that Jesus is private in your life and that's the mentality you take, I would challenge you to reevaluate because It sounds to me like you're embarrassed of Jesus. 


[00:50:15] Gina: If you're afraid of sharing Jesus, With the people that you're around, I would even argue, like, what, what are you surrounding yourself with that so opposes God that you're afraid to talk about Him? Becoming a Christian for me, like, I lost all my friends, I lost my family. It was not just this, like, skipping through a field of daisies thing. 


[00:50:39] It was hard. Like, you want to know Jesus, sometimes you have to leave stuff behind. You don't have to do immoral things to know Jesus. Like Cody shared, we've heard people justify leaving their wives because they want to follow Jesus. You don't have to do that. But if you're embarrassed to talk about him or afraid to talk about him because you think that it's going to impact your relationship with somebody, let me tell you what, your relationship with Jesus is much more impactful and sustaining than the relationship that you're trying to preserve by hiding your faith. 


[00:51:07] Amen. 


[00:51:08] Ben: And it's not that you shouldn't take the time, place, and manner into consideration when you talk about Jesus. There are absolutely going to be times where it's not the right time. And there are going to be times where it is. And one of the ways that you can discern the difference is by getting closer to Jesus to begin with. 


[00:51:28] By listening to the Holy Spirit, by constantly praying. You will generally feel when it's time. You will have an argument with God in those times. I can promise you that. There are going to be points where you will feel like you really should say something, and those are almost always the times when you should. 


[00:51:46] But if you just don't think to say it, if, like, if it doesn't even pop into your mind, and you're talking with someone, and then after the fact, you shouldn't feel guilty because Jesus didn't come up every single time you said something to that person. The point is that there are going to be times where it feels right, where it feels natural, where it fits. 


[00:52:03] And in those times, you shouldn't be afraid to bring them up. 


[00:52:06] Gina: I would agree. 


[00:52:07] Ben: Oh, thank goodness. 


[00:52:11] Gina: I want to tell a story to close us out about what we've just been talking about because it really taught me obedience in my walk with Jesus. But I'm adopted and my biological dad passed away due to COVID and as that process happened, I had never met that part of my family. 


[00:52:34] I'd never met my biological father, my siblings, anybody, but in the process of finding my birth family and all of the genealogy stuff that I was doing, I met some cousins who knew my biological grandpa. And so, when my birth father passed away, one of my cousins called me and said she was really concerned about my grandpa, and he's an alcoholic. 


[00:52:57] And so, I'd been praying, I felt bad, I was really devastated by the entire situation, and God called me to speak with my biological grandfather. And at the time, I was thinking Am I supposed to evangelize? What am I supposed to say? And God told me what to say, but I don't think the point was even that I needed to call my grandpa because of the words that my grandpa said to me when I called him, which was, I don't know you and he hung up on me and I just want to leave with the reminder that if we don't obey the Lord, he won't know us and we won't know him. 


[00:53:37] And there's scripture to back that up. Sometimes God wants to know that we're going to listen to him and he challenges us in ways that we don't expect. And it's not always because it's going to save another person. In fact, we're not responsible for saving other people. That's Jesus's job. But we want to know that at the end of our lives, he's going to. 


[00:53:58] Hug us and embrace us and say well done and we can't know that if we're not obeying him. So that's it 


[00:54:06] Ben: Absolutely. Thanks a lot for sharing that 


[00:54:09] Gina: Thank you so much for taking the time to listen to our podcast today. If you liked what you heard, please feel free to subscribe and share and leave a positive review. 


[00:54:19] And if you would like to connect with us on social media, you can do so on Instagram and Facebook at the logic of God. You can also send us an email at main dot the logic of God at gmail. com. Thanks again for listening. We hope you have a great day.

Was Jesus God? Part 1

00:00:00] Gina: Hello, and welcome to the Logic of God podcast. I am Gina. 


[00:00:20] Ben: I am Ben.

[00:00:21] Cody: And I’m Cody.

[00:00:22] Gina: And today we are going to be talking about our fourth assumption, and that's just going to get into who is Jesus according to Christianity. 


[00:00:31] Ben: Okay, so when talking about who Jesus is, obviously it's tough for any of us to address it with any degree of separation, of neutrality, but doing it the best that we can. 


[00:00:42] Roughly 2, 000 years ago, there was a man who was born, his name was Yeshua in Hebrew. We refer to him as Jesus. His parents were Joseph and Mary. He was born in the city of Bethlehem. As he got older, in his early thirties, he started his ministry, where he preached about the kingdom of heaven. There were a bunch of different things that he talked about, but one of the more famous things that Christians believe is that he specifically said that he was either equal to or was God. 


[00:01:11] The Sanhedrin, the religious leaders of the time, brought him in for questioning. They talked to him about that, questioned him about it, and he verified that was his stance. The Sanhedrin. So, that was, in Jewish law, akin to blasphemy, and blasphemy law said that he could be executed for that, so they had him executed. 


[00:01:28] That was done through the Roman authority at the time, through Pontius Pilate. He was whipped, beaten, tortured. He was crucified. Which was the form of execution that they used where he was put up onto a cross. Nails were put through right beneath his palms into the wrist area and into his feet. And the ultimate way you die through that is through asphyxiation. 


[00:01:50] But after that he was buried in a tomb owned by one of the religious leaders, Joseph of Arimathea. And after a full day, on the morning of the next day, Or rather, not left there, so he died on the, right before the evening on one day, there was a full day, and then the morning of the day after that full day, it's reported by a number of women who went specifically to visit his tomb that he he was gone, that the tomb had been opened, that there were some angels that were there, and told him that he had risen, and he reportedly appeared to a group of twelve, as well as many other people who learned under him, but specifically to rather eleven people, because one of them betrayed him and he's dead. 


[00:02:38] But there were a group of eleven people, the eleven disciples, and Jesus appeared to them after his death, and they went out proclaiming that he was brought back to life, and the religious authorities at the time claimed that these men had stolen his body from the grave that was empty, and one thing led to another, and we get to the modern time, and we have Christianity. 


[00:03:04] Gina: Can you cite your sources? 


[00:03:08] Ben: Oh my goodness, there are so many. The main one is the Bible there, but there are some other things that you could cite potentially. Tacitus is one of the, uh, the Roman sources as well as Josephus, but we'll get into that in a little bit. 


[00:03:21] Cody: Can we trust what the Bible says about him though? 


[00:03:26] Ben: So yeah, I mean, obviously we're a little biased in that area, but I've been talking for a while. What do you guys think? 


[00:03:32] Cody: Yeah, so Whether we decide to believe what the Bible says or not, we got to put together the base of how the Bible was, or what else, rather, it was used for historically, and the historicity of the documents that comprise the Bible. 


[00:03:53] I know there has been a lot of confirmations throughout history. I want to say there's thousands of references that use the Bible as a base rather than some of the other documents, like you have some of Plato's works. You only have, you know, A couple mentions of the work outside of his own, and then the Bible itself has lots of different references that it pulls in and is verified and scrutinized in many more ways. 


[00:04:25] Ben: Yeah, I agree. One of the reasons that we can have as much confidence in the Gospels at the very least, much less the epistles and the rest of the letters that make up the New Testament, is that, for one, There's four Gospels. There's Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. For a lot of people, they assume that all of those were written by the disciples. 


[00:04:45] In truth, only two of them were. And that would be Matthew, and John is still disputed to this day. There are a lot of people who are very adamant about the fact that John definitely didn't write Matthew. The book of John, but generally, I'd say like 70 percent of people do accept, yes, he was the writer. 


[00:05:02] It's just when he wrote that is the contested thing. Mark is a gospel that was written by Mark and Mark was a disciple of Peter, one of the apostles. And so, He compiled pretty much everything that Peter had told him about the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus, and he put that together into the Gospel of Mark. 


[00:05:25] Luke is actually one of the most interesting ones, in my opinion. And that's because Luke wrote both the Book of Luke and the Book of Acts, and he wrote those as letters to a Roman official named Theophilus. As far as I know, we don't know exactly who Theophilus was. I don't know if you've I don't know if you've heard Gina. 


[00:05:46] Gina: Yeah, he was the great uncle of Sam. 


[00:05:49] Ben: Oh. 


[00:05:49] Gina: No, I have no idea. I'm sorry. 


[00:05:51] Ben: I was gonna say, Sam doesn't sound like a Roman name to me. It's very Roman. It's so very foreign. Oh my. But yeah, so, he was writing it to Theophilus to provide a full account of Jesus life. And he was very thorough. For the people who actually read that gospel in the original Greek, the Greek that he uses is It's drastically different from most other Greek sources that you see. 


[00:06:18] It, it's written very much as an official document. It's written very eloquently. It's written very precisely and specifically. Luke is very intentional about all of the details that he provides. And there are occasions where some people like Bart Ehrman, who is, uh, one of the more famous critics of the, of the New Testament, will point to individual details and say, no, that's wrong, that, yeah, that's completely different, so he'll point to times or places and say that couldn't possibly be, or names of specific officials and say that couldn't possibly be. 


[00:06:52] And that's something that's been going on for a long time, and there are multiple points at which Luke has made an assertion about the name of an official. or the name of a location, and it's turned out that he was correct. I can't remember the exact name, but I remember that he makes a reference to a tetrarch of a specific area, and it turns out that the assumed tetrarch that we had for records was wrong, and Luke was correct in the naming of the tetrarch of a specific area. 


[00:07:19] So, Cody, kind of going off of what you said, there is the fact that these Documents are varied, they're from different authors, and they all gel fairly well together, but one of the really big things is that there are early church fathers like Polly Carp and Justin Martyr who make references specifically and quote directly from the Gospels. 


[00:07:41] And then there are additional Church Fathers. So the Church Fathers, Justin Martyr and Polycarp, they're from the 2nd century and late 1st century. So, like, very late, like, year 90, year 100, year 110, year 120. And that's not very far off from when Jesus was alive. In fact, Um, there's an overlap between their lives and the lives of the disciples. 


[00:08:08] I believe Polycarp was actually a disciple of John. And John was the last of the disciples to die. I believe he's the only one who died of old age. So, moving on from that, you have kind of this family tree branching off of different people in those first three centuries who constantly are referencing back to these first four Gospels. 


[00:08:29] And there are some people who try to make the argument, look, it's all arbitrary. We don't really know what the books of the Bible should be. We don't really know what the New Testament should be. The reality is we all kind of knew already prior to the, what was it, the Council of Laodicea? No, what was it? 


[00:08:47] What was the council? Yeah. Sorry, the Council of Nicaea. Yeah. So there was a point which is generally attributed, attributed to be the point where we got the modern Bible, and that was the Council of Nicaea. And prior to that, we basically knew already what all of the books of the Bible for the New Testament were going to be. 


[00:09:06] Cody: And that was around 300. 


[00:09:08] Ben: AD, correct? Correct. It was around that time. I wish I had written down the actual date. That probably would have been a good idea, but prior to that, the reason that we ended up with the four gospels that we did is because they are referenced almost in their entirety by the series of church fathers that led up to that council. 


[00:09:26] And if we lost all copies of the Bible right now and only had access to the writings of that, we could entirely reconstruct the, the four gospels completely in their entirety. Just from the quotations of the early Church Fathers. They were quoted so often, and so specifically, that ultimately all four Gospels were just repeated. 


[00:09:49] Just from quotations from other people. We don't really have a lot of analogs to that. We do have snippets throughout history of people who quote books that are no longer with us, but we can't really reconstruct those books based purely off of quotations from other people. So, I would say that's one of the biggest things that at the very least is an argument for the four Gospels. 


[00:10:11] Because, that's just not something that we have. That's not something that you find at all in history. It's one of the most widely covered events, covered by both believers and unbelievers. It's covered by people like Tacitus, by people like Josephus, who, there is some argument about his covering of Jesus, because it is believed, and I do actually agree with this, that there was kind of a tweaking of what Josephus wrote to make it more pro Christianity. 


[00:10:41] But there's another version that was found that was written in Arabic, which seems more close to what someone like Josephus would have written. So we have an idea of what it is Josephus believed about Jesus. But regardless, there's people pro, people not sure, people against, people violently against. 


[00:10:59] Tacitus was not a fan of Jesus, not a fan of Christianity. But, And then you have the sources that are from the 1st century, from 2nd century, from 3rd century and covered from so many different angles, covering the reported events like the sky turning dark and earthquakes happening. We have specific historians that wrote only about that. 


[00:11:20] We have people who we only know about. because there were rebuttals from people we do have to the stuff that we don't have. So there's an instance of the historian Julius Africanus, who was in the second century, who's writing a rebuttal to a different historian who's specifically addressing, and this, he's addressing a piece that was written in the first century during the time of Christ. 


[00:11:42] And that guy was saying, well, yes, there was an earthquake and yes, the sky did go dark, but I mean, that could have just been a solar eclipse. And Julius Africanus kind of makes the point, well, we know when solar eclipses are supposed to happen. So what, is this just a spontaneous solar eclipse? So all that is, I know I'm kind of rambling here, but the point is that we have a very good reason to trust what it is the Gospels say. 


[00:12:11] And I do think that a lot of Christians try to give ground here. They try to say, okay, let's, like, as much as I love Gary Habermas, he came up with an argument called the minimum facts argument. And he basically says, look, this is all the stuff that everyone agrees on. If you are Jewish, if you're atheist, if you're Christian, if you're Arabic, these are all the things that we can more or less agree on. 


[00:12:34] There's value to that, but I think that concedes far too much ground, and I think that we have very firm ground, grounds for saying that the New Testament as it is, and especially the four Gospels, are reliable, and we shouldn't have any issues with using them as actual historical resources. 


[00:12:51] Cody: Yeah, and those have been proven time and time again by atheist sources, proving that the Bible is historically accurate. 


[00:13:01] Still happens on a daily basis, but a lot of the things that go into that too are also the, how it's been muddied through translation and that has also been disproven. And that tends to be one that a lot of people go to is that you have this. telephone effect where somebody tells a story, somebody tells a story, it changes a little bit, and so on. 


[00:13:23] But the Dead Sea Scrolls were kind of a good validation of this when those were found, and fragments are still being found to this day that just prove that there's not been much deviation. And the manuscripts through the old translations and the copying through the years pre modern era, now you have Certain translations that add quite a bit of wording and change the original intent quite a bit, and that's a whole different argument, but early translations and early copies are so close to the originals that you can rely on those sources. 


[00:14:01] Gina: Well, I mean, we were in Israel a couple of weeks ago, and when we were in Israel, we were faced with a lot of archaeological evidence of scripture being true. I mean, we went to the ancient town of Shiloh and saw the tabernacle structure that, uh, You can still see the footprint of, to the exact specifications that are in the Old Testament. 


[00:14:22] You can still see the temple steps and the places where Jesus stayed, like in Peter's mother in law's house, where she was healed. So it's hard for me, as somebody who's seen those things and known that they're real, to really refute. What scripture says outside of all of the evidence that you guys have just shared, I mean, we have archaeological evidence of the exact places where Jesus taught, healed, lived, and while they don't have his name written on them, they're true to what scripture says as far as where he was, when, and why. 


[00:14:56] Cody: Okay, so we can get past that point. Jesus did exist. He was a real human being on earth, but did he really perform the miracles in the Bible? 


[00:15:08] Ben: Yeah, so there are a lot of people who kind of, you know, take umbrage when you start referring to miracles. Obviously, the greatest miracle would be Him rising from the dead, but there are other miracles that are referred to throughout the New Testament, like Him healing the blind, healing the sick. 


[00:15:23] walking on water. And so from an atheistic perspective, especially, there are a lot of people who just say, well, all of those are impossible. And they're provably impossible because we understand the way the natural world works and the natural world doesn't allow for any of these things to happen. So. I'm kind of interested to hear your guys rebuttals to this. 


[00:15:44] What do you think would be a good way to address someone who would come to you and say, Look, I just don't believe in miracles to begin with, so obviously I can't be a Christian. 


[00:15:51] Gina: You're looking at me. We had our brief conversation before we started about miracles. And my opinion is that miracles are subjective. 


[00:16:01] So if I had a miraculous event occur and Cody was like, that's not a miracle. Like, well, I know what I experienced. I don't know how to prove it to you. So, it makes it challenging, because when you look at scripture for the examples of Christ's miracles, you have to believe that they were real, and the Bible doesn't have lies in it. 


[00:16:23] So, I don't know, I don't have a good rebuttal for that, because I do believe that miracles are kind of in the eye of the beholder, but just because somebody says that's not a miracle doesn't make it not a miracle. 


[00:16:39] Cody: And for me, the miracles, I get the hesitation for atheists and some skeptics to be leery when a Christian says, Oh, I prayed because my keys were lost, then I found my keys. 


[00:16:51] To me, that's not a miracle. I wouldn't dub that as a miracle, but for me, the miracles are anything that breaks the laws of nature, laws of physics. And uh, goes against that. So, and then the ones that we read in the Bible, I think it goes into, we set the foundation of believing it's a historical document and it's accurate. 


[00:17:15] Why would we believe that it's accurate about some things than the other things that these very thorough, Ben talked about Luke, Very well educated, respected guy. Why would we take some of what he says then for the rest? Oh, this is hogwash. 


[00:17:33] Ben: Yeah, so I do think we do need to establish exactly what we mean when we say miracles. 


[00:17:38] And I do think that when an atheist is specifically bringing this up, and I do think it's legitimate because there are a lot of Yeah, hokey things out there. There are a lot of people who will say and do very strange things and claim it. 


[00:17:51] Gina: I like the guy that smacks people with his sport coat. Oh, 


[00:17:54] Ben: bam, 


[00:17:54] Gina: bam. 


[00:17:57] Ben: Yeah, so, to be clear, there's a very good book specifically on miracles written by Lee Strobel. And Lee Strobel, if you're looking into apologetic people, Work generally, Lee is absolutely one of the best people that you could possibly look at because even if his work isn't like 100% explorative into everything, he'll point you to additional work and additional sources that can help expand even more on what he's written about. 


[00:18:24] Cody: Oh yeah. And he, Scott books on stuff. We've covered the case for Christ, the Case for Faith. He's got the case for miracles. He's got 


[00:18:30] Ben: the case for the resurrection. But yeah, the book specifically the case for miracles is very good. And in that he outlines. It's a pretty solid definition for what could, pretty much everyone could agree with is a miracle. 


[00:18:44] And I do agree to an extent with Gina. I do think that God intervening generally in someone's life, you can consider a miracle. It's the creator and author of all things. Changing something even if it can be done within the bounds of reality just for you and that is An astounding thing an astounding mystery a beautiful thing all in of itself and whether or not it's done Breaking the laws of physics or not I'd say that it's just as important, and it's just as impactful, if not more so. 


[00:19:18] But, the thing that Lee gives as a definition that I think everyone could agree with, and we wouldn't have to argue semantics at that point, would be a temporary suspension of the laws of physics to, that God does, to allow him to display his power and his love and his authority. So, yeah, a temporary suspension of the laws of physics, I think, is a pretty acceptable thing. 


[00:19:42] So the question is, do those happen? And the trouble with addressing an atheist's perspective on this is they will only accept a naturalistic explanation as to how a miracle can happen. And if a miracle is by definition an exception to nature, you can't prove it. By natural means. I'll give an example. 


[00:20:05] There was a woman named Barbara, and for the life of me, I'm sorry, I can't remember her last name. I do, I recognize I say this a lot. But there is an instance that Lee writes, I think, both in his book, and then he's had interviews with this woman, oddly enough. She's a woman who, back in the 1980s, 


[00:20:19] Gina: Barbara Snyder. 


[00:20:20] Ben: Barbara Snyder. Thank you. I was gonna, that was gonna really bother me, but yeah, so Barbara, when she was much younger back in the 1980s, she had multiple sclerosis. She had a deflated lung. She was wheelchair bound and she had a hole in the neck that she had to plug in order to speak. And it was a hole that she breathed through. 


[00:20:38] Her muscles were horrendously atrophied. I think she could only move one arm. And there was no hope that she would ever get better. She was slowly getting worse over time. And it was basically expected that she was probably going to die within a few years. And there was one day where she and her family were praying and she heard a voice and it said, get up. 


[00:20:59] And it was a man's voice and she could hear it behind her and she motioned for someone to plug the hole in her neck and she said, I think Jesus just told me to get up. And so she tried to get up and she was able to stand up and the muscles in her legs were restored. She was able to move her hands. Her lung was reflated and she went to church and she just strolled down the aisle and everyone was Going crazy and praising God and she went to the hospital that she'd been to so many times and They thought that they were seeing a ghost I think one of the doctors was interviewed and he said yeah, I thought she was dead and I was seeing her ghost Just walking toward me. 


[00:21:32] That's a reasonable response and there's documentation for this. There's This woman's medical history. She very clearly had multiple sclerosis. She very clearly had atrophied muscles. She very clearly had a hole in her neck that she no longer had. How do you give a natural explanation for any of that? A lot of the times the response is, well, it's spontaneous remission, or it's all a lie, or it was all fabricated. 


[00:21:59] All of those are statements of fact. You don't have proof of that. All we have so far is proof that it did happen. And the only way you can respond is to say, well, all of that's fabricated. Why would you say all of that's fabricated? Because it's impossible. Why do you say it's impossible? Because miracles aren't possible. 


[00:22:17] And why are miracles not possible? Because they're not physically possible because of the laws of nature. It's a continuous loop. It's constantly referring back to itself, and there is no way you can possibly prove it if it does exist. 


[00:22:33] Cody: Gotta love circular arguments. 


[00:22:37] Ben: I find there's a lot of that in atheism. 


[00:22:38] It's a lot of referring back to the central assumption. And just as we have assumptions for Christianity, which is why we're doing these first few episodes about our assumptions here. Every single path of logic has a series of assumptions that you rely on. And atheism relies on the central assumption that everything is explainable through the natural rules and the natural laws we observe. 


[00:23:00] And the problem is that you can't actually prove that. Because there, if there is something beyond the rules and the laws of nature, and unfortunately by definition there has to be because prior to the universe those laws didn't exist, but we'll leave that aside. There's no way for you to prove or disprove something beyond the laws of nature using natural rules itself. 


[00:23:21] Now there is a way to indicate that there's something and that's through empiricism. You can investigate things. You can find information. Evidence for some sort of supernatural thing happening. Something that could not possibly be explained through the laws of nature. Just like with Barbara. There is no natural explanation that exists. 


[00:23:38] Aside from aliens came down and decided to heal her body spontaneously through technology we don't understand. But at that point, you're getting into really weird territory that no one's gonna take you seriously for anyway. 


[00:23:50] Cody: No, it's funny because we're going to go back there when we talk about the resurrection. 


[00:23:53] Ben: Oh boy. I'm looking forward to that conversation. 


[00:23:59] Gina: I just had, this is totally off topic, but it's funny because I just had a relative reach out to me on one of my genealogy websites. And I help adoptees sometimes find their biological families. And this lady wanted help finding out who her grandmother's biological family was. 


[00:24:15] So I found some old family stories online and there was this lady writing about this girl's grandparents and how they had seen aliens and all of this. crop circle stuff. So it's been on my mind lately as a, as an interesting interpretation that people have to miraculous events. 


[00:24:35] Ben: I don't know about all that. 


[00:24:37] And the thing is, I'm hesitant to dismiss Kind of, kind of, kind of addressing that and keeping in with the idea of miracles. I'm hesitant to completely dismiss anything like that. Like just because someone says, Oh yeah, I was, I was visited by aliens and they took me out and then they done probed me with all kinds of weird instrumentation. 


[00:24:55] It's like, yeah, okay. That's weird. It doesn't mean that didn't happen. It does. There could be other explanations and oftentimes it seems there are, but it doesn't automatically mean it didn't happen and it doesn't mean that there isn't something there to look at. So, looking at, going back to Barbara, it doesn't mean that there isn't some other explanation. 


[00:25:14] It doesn't mean there isn't something else that could possibly account for what happened to her. The thing is that, from an atheist perspective, it's all just swept under the rug. It's all ignored, it's all eye roll, whatever, it doesn't count, it doesn't matter. If you're going to try to discern the real truth, whether or not there's something beyond the physical world or not, this is at the very least an indication. 


[00:25:37] That something could be. And, contextually, it seemed to be in response to prayer to God. And not to just any God, but to a specific God. Doesn't mean it's the God who responded. It doesn't mean that it is God who responded. It doesn't mean that it is a supernatural thing. It does indicate that. It is an argument. 


[00:25:58] And the good, the best way to address that argument isn't to say that it doesn't count. 


[00:26:04] Cody: No, yeah, just to write something off is bad, but just to play the devil's advocate here. A lot of the response I hear from Atheists says, we can't explain it now, but we will be able to in the future. 


[00:26:19] Ben: Yeah, so there's an argument that they tend to say called the God of the gaps theory, where they claim that Christians will point to something that science can't explain, and they'll say, oh, that's just God of the gaps. 


[00:26:31] You say that because we can't explain it, therefore God did it. Ultimately, it's the exact same thing as saying, well, even if we don't have an explanation, eventually we will, because it's atheism of the gaps. It's science of the gaps. Eventually we will. You don't know that you will. You don't know that for certain. 


[00:26:49] And the reality is, you can typically see when something will have, eventually, an explanation. You can't really tell me. I'm not, I'm not hearing any reasonable rebuttal. To Barbara's story, in a natural argument. Looking at it, with a context, with them praying specifically to Jesus, hearing a male voice behind her, her suddenly being healed, the only natural explanations that potentially could fit that are aliens playing a prank on us. 


[00:27:21] And you can try to make the argument that's what it is, but I find it very rare that atheists actually stick by that argument. They don't actually claim that Jesus was an alien. They don't typically claim that every single instance of a miracle is an alien performing something with technology, because it sounds crazy. 


[00:27:40] And they know it sounds crazy. 


[00:27:42] Cody: So do you think in biblical times to where we are today with science that Christians or religious folk claimed miracles more often because they couldn't explain it and it wasn't truly a miracle? Or do you think that just because something can be explained naturally later that it is any less of a miracle by God? 


[00:28:09] Ben: Well, so sometimes. We'll refer to things that happened in the past and we'll say that there is a specific natural explanation for it. And that's the truth. For instance, an eruption of a volcano. There would have been a time where native people would have looked at that and said, Oh, clearly the gods are angry. 


[00:28:27] Or they would have looked up at a storm and seen lightning come down from the sky and said, Oh, clearly there's a god that's angry. For things that, like that, that were previously thought to be supernatural in nature, Obviously we have explanations for that, but when you really look back through a lot of the claims throughout history, even for things that Herodotus talked about, there aren't very solid explanations. 


[00:28:50] I'll give an example, because this is actually a really big sticking point for me, because a lot of atheists will make claims like this, and they don't actually know anything about the writers of antiquity, a lot of the older, uh, Historians, Ticus mentioned supernatural things, some pretty crazy things. He talked about ants that were out in the desert the size of Labrador retrievers. 


[00:29:09] What? And they would burrow down into the sand and they would bring up gold, and the natives would come in and they would write in as fast as they possibly could, snatch up the gold and run away. And the ants would chase them. And we're talking actual ants. And the claim is that her doesn't know what he was talking about. 


[00:29:27] It was actually squirrels. 


[00:29:34] So, he specifically talks about ants, uses the word for ants, he talks about them burrowing into the ground the size of golden retrievers, bringing up gold. Talks about a process through which the natives would collect the gold and then run away because they were terrified of these things killing them. 


[00:29:51] And you think that's a squirrel? 


[00:29:53] Cody: I just want to know if it is a squirrel, where do I get one? Seriously? I would love to have a gold burrowing squirrel. It takes golden 


[00:30:02] Gina: retriever to a whole new level. I mean, 


[00:30:05] Ben: obviously he doesn't specifically say golden retriever. I say golden retriever because I think it's funny that it's gold ants golden retriever. 


[00:30:10] But yeah, he refers to them being the size of a dog. A chihuahua, or? 


[00:30:17] Cody: Still, an ant the size of a chihuahua. 


[00:30:20] Ben: True. I don't think they had those. And that's typically something that someone would look at and say, Okay, that sounds kind of fantastical. That sounds like a fantastical animal. Something that was made up. 


[00:30:31] But Herodotus references it as if it's real. And for all we know, it could be. And he could be misunderstanding something that I'm not sure, I can't remember specifically if he says he was there and saw it, but regardless, he's referring to something that he believes exists. And you find a lot of that in a lot of the, the ancient writers. 


[00:30:52] They generally believed in supernatural things being possible, and they reference events and creatures and things that seem fantastical at the very least. And so, like, yes, you can say that a lot of things do have explanations. A lot of things don't. A lot of things looking back at what they wrote about seem strange, even today, and you can either try to shoehorn it into a box that fits modern understanding and sensibility Or you accept the fact that maybe there are supernatural things that used to happen. 


[00:31:26] Maybe not all of it came from God. Maybe there are other forces that work on this world that are not just God. Negative spiritual forces like angels and demons. Well, the demons are the negative, you get what I mean. The point is that There can be things outside of the physical world that exist, and there can be things that act on the world as it is and can alter things similar to the way that God can, and influence things in ways we don't understand. 


[00:31:53] All of that is possible. It's also possible that a lot of these guys were just crazy or didn't know what they were talking about or whatever. The point is that it's possible, and really all you can say looking at it and trying to be objective is, It's possible. Now, how much of it is real and how much of it's not, I don't know. 


[00:32:11] But, for a lot of the things that are specifically in the Bible, going back to the initial question, if you have someone who is dead and has been dead for several days, and then that person is raised to life, that's a miracle. There's a lot of stuff in that vein that's mentioned in the Bible. And I do think that we tend to Even Christians, we tend to look back at people in the past and think they were stupid. 


[00:32:37] So, there are atheists who will talk about the virgin birth and say, Well, obviously Mary had sex with someone other than Joseph. Okay, so you think Joseph was stupid. He didn't know how pregnancy worked. Where Mary is just like, Oh no, God gave me this baby. And he was just like, Oh, okay, since I'm an ancient man, I must be stupid. 


[00:33:00] It specifically says in the Bible he planned to divorce her quietly. That implies he understood how babies were made. 


[00:33:06] Cody: And he didn't want any part of it. 


[00:33:08] Ben: Yeah. But, but we 


[00:33:10] Gina: also know that an angel spoke to him. 


[00:33:12] Ben: That's correct. That was what I was going to get to. very much, Gina. No, you make, you bring up a very good point. 


[00:33:17] The whole point of Joseph accepting what Mary said is not because he was a stupid ancient man and stupid ancient men didn't know how pregnancy worked. Is that he did know that sex makes babies, and the ancient world understood that very well. And because he understood that, he was planning on divorcing Mary. 


[00:33:33] He didn't want her killed or stoned or anything for breaking the law. But he didn't want any part of her. And then an angel came and spoke to him, and he accepted what Mary said. 


[00:33:44] Cody: Do you think that's overlooked more in today's modern society with how frivolous we are with sex? Yes. Okay. I would agree. 


[00:33:54] Because I don't think contextually speaking, understanding that culture that modern society grasps how big of a deal that was back then to have a bastard child from another man and you're going to marry that woman. That was not a common thing to sign up for back then. Well, in Arab countries, 


[00:34:18] Gina: adoption is like forbidden even now. 


[00:34:20] So for a man in Jesus time to raise someone else's son was unheard of. 


[00:34:27] Ben: Yeah, absolutely. He took on not just risk to himself, but he took on potential humiliation if it got out exactly who Jesus was and the fact that Jesus wasn't his son. I mean, he was because he chose to adopt him. And Joseph's part, I do think is underplayed to an extent. 


[00:34:45] Like a lot of honor is given to Mary and rightly so, because she went through a very tough time and it was a big burden that was placed on her. But a very large burden was also placed on Joseph because he didn't have to be there. He could have left if he wanted to. He didn't have to accept what Mary said. 


[00:35:01] He could have divorced her quietly, like he was planning on, and then left her to be alone. But he didn't. He chose to play the part that he did. He chose to honor Mary. He chose to honor God. 


[00:35:12] Gina: And I think that says a lot about God. Because when you're faced with his request or his plan, or with needing to obey him, like he did. 


[00:35:22] I don't really have an example of, in scripture, God speaking to someone with an angel or directly and them saying no, except for Jonah, who ended up going and doing it anyway, and then maybe Pharaoh, but God hardened his heart, so. There's very few examples where people talked to God or an angel and were like, nah, I don't feel like it. 


[00:35:44] Which is, I think, even more compelling when it comes to miracles and, like, Bible stories because if it was so compelling to that person that they dropped everything and changed their whole life and their future forever because of that two minute interaction or whatever, that has to speak so clearly about, like, the character of God and where we stand in obedience to Him. 


[00:36:08] That makes miracles more compelling in Scripture, not less. 


[00:36:11] Ben: I agree. 


[00:36:15] Gina: Thank you so much for taking the time to listen to our podcast today. If you liked what you heard, please feel free to subscribe and share and leave a positive review. And if you would like to connect with us on social media, you can do so on Instagram and Facebook at the Logic of God. You can also send us an email at dot the Logic of god@gmail.com. 


[00:36:37] Thanks again for listening. We hope you have a great day.

Does God Love Us? Part 2

00:00:00] Cody: Hi, thank you for tuning in to the Logic of God podcast. I'm Cody. 


[00:00:07] Gina: I'm Gina. 


[00:00:08] Ben: And I'm Ben. If you're returning, thank you for coming back and if you are a new guest, welcome. 


[00:00:20] Today we're going to continue on with our core assumption discussion around does God love us? We'll tackle topics around divine hiddenness, how could God love us if he allows sin and death? And just his presence and theophanies throughout time and how that displaces love to us. I hope you enjoy today's episode. 


[00:00:48] If God loves us, why would he even allow sin in the first place? If it's so bad for us, if it is so damaging to us, if it prevents us from the relationship with him. Why even allow sin in the first place? 


[00:01:03] Gina: The world is a dollhouse. I'm just kidding. 


[00:01:06] Ben: Oh, okay. That was a twist I was not expecting. Yeah, didn't expect that one. 


[00:01:11] Gina: No. Cody and I have these like, you know, intellectual conversations about The purpose of the serpent and sin and the fallen world and all of it and you know, I think you have to Decide based on what you've studied and taken time to understand do we have free will or not? Does God love us enough to let us choose him? 


[00:01:35] Or does God control everything? And if God controls everything, then then the world really is a dollhouse. But if we have free will and God wants us to have the ability to say, no, I love you because I want to, because I know you because I have a relationship with you and you're good and you're perfect. 


[00:01:53] Like, that's the only way to that response, is to have the ability to sin. I don't think that God wants us to sin, I don't think He wants us to choose that. He wants us to choose Him, but we have to have good and evil in order to choose good. 


[00:02:08] Cody: No, and I think we covered this kind of previously, but if his desire is for us to be free agents and be able to choose for ourselves, and his will is that we are able to love him, uh, what kind of love would it be if we didn't have a choice? 


[00:02:28] And what kind of love would it be, or what kind What would it be if every time we sin, there's this giant sword in the sky following us around that strikes us down anytime we do something wrong? That wouldn't be love, that would be fear. And that, that wouldn't really be a god worth pursuing. And ultimately, I think that's how we come to the idea that he loves us. 


[00:02:51] He loves us enough to let us make our own decisions, and not force them. What he he knows is best for us on us. We're still free agents But he does know what is best for us and calls us to be the best that we can be 


[00:03:08] Ben: Yeah So this does beg the question if the two of you could snap your fingers and make it so that your children Had no choice but to love you and do whatever you said Would you do it? 


[00:03:19] Do I want robots? Essentially, yeah. 


[00:03:23] Cody: No, I mean, again, what kind of love would that be? Like, if you're forcing somebody to love you, it's not really love. 


[00:03:30] Gina: Most of the fun in having our girls is the personality differences and the character that comes out. Even when they disagree and, like, wrestle each other, it's still, like, there's an element of the fruitfulness of the joy and the goodness. 


[00:03:46] I don't think, I don't think we would feel that way if our kids were like, Yes, mommy. No, mommy. Whatever. Perfect little 


[00:03:54] Ben: Steppard wife children? 


[00:03:56] Gina: Ellie's a bag lady. Like, it drives us crazy. She finds bags everywhere and fills them with random things like trash and broken crayons and coins and stuff she shouldn't have that she takes off our desk. 


[00:04:08] And she'll throw it in the car and it'll Disappear for three months one time our keys were found in the freezer But like it's part of what makes our lives with them so much fun. And so entertaining I don't know. Maybe that makes me a really bad mom 


[00:04:22] Cody: I don't think so. 


[00:04:23] Gina: That's 


[00:04:23] Cody: the in between and like I know it'll be easier for parents to understand I don't know how how much people without kids could relate to this but If you tell your child, come sit with me and cuddle me and let's watch it, and you force them to do it against their will, or they decide to come, just plop down in your lap and love on you and snuggle with you. 


[00:04:46] What, what's more rewarding? Rewarding, yeah. Mm-Hmm? . Because it, it's definitely not when you, you force them to do what you want. 


[00:04:53] Gina: No. And when we try too hard, they let us know 'cause they don't come close. If we're like, please come here, let me hold you. Like I do that a lot with the little one. And she's like, no. 


[00:05:04] And she runs away. I would do the same thing. 


[00:05:07] Cody: Yeah. But what kind of love would it be if you forced them? Would that really be love? Yeah. 


[00:05:14] Ben: I think though, that the hangups for a lot of people in this specific discussion is, yeah. Okay. So. Having the ability to choose is important, but the choice is either loving God or death. 


[00:05:28] Is that really a choice? 


[00:05:30] Cody: Can you unpack that a little bit more? The only choice is loving God or death. 


[00:05:35] Ben: An eternal separation from God. So either you can choose to have a loving relationship with the Almighty, or you're separated from Him for all eternity, and that is essentially an eternal death. So is that an actual choice? 


[00:05:48] Cody: I mean, do I think it's an actual choice? Yes. Do I think that people realize the gravity of the decisions that they're making on the day to day? No, it is, especially in the culture we live now, just look at what we have in big cities. Like you can walk outside and you, you might see a few stars here and there, but think of thousands of years ago, walking outside that just Demands the response of giving God glory that that 


[00:06:17] Ben: something's there I think that hang up does make sense to an extent but only because we're looking at things in the scope of eternity it's okay, you can either have an eternal relationship with God and be happy and fulfilled or You're eternally damned. 


[00:06:33] You're just cut off from him forever, and that's an eternal punishment. That doesn't seem like an actual choice. It's like, here, you can either have five grapes, or I can punch you in the face. Okay, I guess I'll take the grapes. I didn't feel like there was a choice. But, when you remove it from that and put it back into the scope of relationships, again, with your guys kids, your kids actually have a very similar choice. 


[00:06:55] It all be it not one that has eternal ramifications. They can choose to have a good relationship with you guys. Or, they can choose to have a poor relationship with you guys. They can choose to accept the things that you say and honor you and give you love, or they can choose to reject you. That's the same kind of thing. 


[00:07:15] The aspects of God are revealed in His creation. And when you look at creation, that same dichotomy exists. We can choose We can choose to do good to other people, we can choose to love, we can choose to do the right thing in our everyday lives, or we can choose not to. I think there are a lot of people who try to say that, no, there's tons of gray area, and to be fair, sometimes there is. 


[00:07:38] But more often than not, we know the right thing that we're supposed to do, and we choose not to do it. And there's always repercussions for it. Not even always just to ourselves. And so, when God presents us with that decision, it's the same kind of decision we've been making our entire lives. You do the right thing that you know you should do, or you don't. 


[00:07:58] But this time, it has eternal consequences, one way or the other. People's hang ups are with the eternal part, that we actually have consequences, finally, to something that we're choosing. Rather than temporary ones where we have the chance to turn around. But I think the reason that in the end it's eternal is because eventually you get to know God in his entirety. 


[00:08:21] And when you're finally face to face with your creator, and there's no more running, there's no more excuses, there's no more I didn't know. God has revealed himself entirely in his goodness, you know who he is, and you know what you're choosing. In the end, there is no coming back from that choice. There has been some debate about something that the Bible describes as the unforgivable sin. 


[00:08:44] Generally, it's accepted that that is blaspheme of the Holy Spirit. And the reason given for why that is the unforgivable sin is because the only way you can blaspheme the Holy Spirit, or blaspheme anything really, is if you truly know and say something that's slanderous, to reject it. If you've gotten so close to God that you know the Holy Spirit, that you felt the presence of God move powerfully within you, And you mockingly reject it. 


[00:09:08] You have been given understanding of God, and you have rejected him directly. So, that's, that's what I would say to the idea of, Okay, well, it seems like it's not really a choice. No, it is a choice. And it's the choice that we make all the time. It's just, it happens to be eternal. The consequence is there. 


[00:09:24] Gina: So then, For people who don't know God the way that you or I do, for the people who are seeking or like maybe just went to church for the first time at Easter, what would be your advice to them on knowing what the right decision is? Because I think sometimes it can be, you know, when you get out of bed in the morning, the first three choices that you make, you know, what would you say is the most practical way of discerning For somebody who doesn't know the full truth yet, how to know which decision to make, what the right thing is, and how to maybe even hear from God personally. 


[00:09:59] Ben: Well, so there's, there's the obvious, which is, okay, start reading the Bible. Yeah. But, I think there's a bit more to it than that. Dr. Jordan Peterson, while he wouldn't call himself a Christian specifically, I don't think, Actually does give some pretty good advice to this effect in that a while back, he describes his journey towards being the person he is today and that he realized that most of the things that were coming out of his mouth were either false or things that made him feel weak, and there was a tiny voice inside of him that was always saying, Well, you don't really believe that. 


[00:10:33] Well, you don't really think that. That's not the whole truth. Yeah, I do love doing the Kermit voice whenever I do. I hope Jordan Peterson never actually listens to this to feel horrible about that. But, I think he gets that a lot. No, he does. And he's actually a good sport about it. The point is, is that when you start analyzing the things that you're saying and the things that you're doing, and you start to choose to filter out the things that make you feel weak, That you know are wrong or that you know are lies. 


[00:11:03] Start with your speech. 


[00:11:05] Gina: So, go to Philippians 4. 


[00:11:07] Ben: 8. And what does that say? 


[00:11:09] Gina: Whatever is true and lovely and good and pure. Think of those things. Yes, ma'am. 


[00:11:15] Ben: That's a very good spot. Very good spot to start. It all starts with how you think and also how you speak because from the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks. 


[00:11:26] So when you analyze the things that you're saying, It's going to change the way that you act because it changes the way that you speak and speaking is an action. Now another thing that's also very important is to just start spending some time in prayer. And it may be tough if you've never really done that before in your life, but start with five minutes. 


[00:11:44] Ideally, five minutes in the morning. The first thing you do when you wake up. It's like you said, the first three things you do. And you may not even take the full five minutes, but just get up. And rather than just laying in bed and shutting your eyes, be intentional. Get up, sit on the edge of your bed, or get on your knees, if you can. 


[00:12:00] Fold your hands, close your eyes, and pray. You don't have to have specific words, just pray what's on your heart. Learn Thank God for the day. Ask Him to help you to be honest, to not cheat people at work, to not cheat on time. Ask Him to be present in your mind. And then, maybe those five won't be enough. 


[00:12:21] Maybe you'll go a little farther, maybe you'll go a little less. But the point is, is that you start with intent. And you start with discipline. And you'll find that when you start inserting discipline into certain areas of your life, you're going to find other areas very quickly where you can add that discipline. 


[00:12:36] And it's going to be a slow change. For most people. For some people, it, it, they take to it like fish to water. It's incredible. But for most of us, changes to discipline life is very difficult. But, over time, you're going to find that there's a voice inside of you that grows stronger and stronger. And you're going to feel wrong when you're not doing the right thing. 


[00:12:58] Even for things that you've done a thousand times, suddenly you're going to start thinking, this doesn't feel right. And when you continue to listen to that voice, it is only going to get stronger and it's going to be harder and harder to do the wrong thing. So yeah, that's what I would recommend. 


[00:13:11] Cody: Nobody's perfect, so, I mean, I think a lot of people get hung up in this, okay, I'm a Christian now, I have to start acting like all of these people who are around me say they are, of these perfect, non sinning believers, and 


[00:13:27] Gina: Yeah, take the Christianity as the people side off of the pedestal. 


[00:13:31] Cody: Yeah, it's, let God work in you. 


[00:13:34] Like, it's not, like you said, I don't think for most people, it's not an instantaneous, sanctification is a big word. And for new believers, they might not. Know that but it's a process. It's not instant 


[00:13:47] Gina: and you never really arrive. 


[00:13:49] Cody: No No, so it's a process you try to get better like anything else to its practice you know, there's some people with just God given talent who can play any sport and pick it up super fast, but for Most people it's, you gotta practice at it. 


[00:14:05] If you want to get better at basketball, you know, you need to dribble. And if you want to get better at shooting and making baskets, you have to practice shooting and making baskets. You can't just expect to think that you're there and not try to get better at all. So that comes with the five minutes, starting with five minutes in prayer, starting with five minutes in scripture. 


[00:14:28] And I dislike when people, you know, Start out with, uh, or, or say, Oh, the, the first 15, that's all you need, because if you're truly getting into the process, it's going to be way more than 15 minutes and it should be, but you got to start somewhere. 


[00:14:44] Ben: What do you think, Gina, what would be your recommendations to newer believers? 


[00:14:48] Gina: So, I have two that come to mind. The first is, you need to take it seriously, the verse, take captive every thought and make it obedient to Christ, because you have so many outside influences trying to convince you that God doesn't love you. And the Bible actually tells us that the world hates us and will hate us the more into our faith that we grow. 


[00:15:11] And so you just have to be prepared to be rejected by people who don't understand and don't want to know. And you have to be prepared to take captive every thought that tells you that God doesn't love you and isn't for you and isn't good for you. Because he is and you're going to see yourself grow in ways that you could have never imagined and you're going to feel healing that you never thought you could have had. 


[00:15:31] But the second thing is just with prayer, I was not raised knowing how to pray. Nobody sat me down as a child and was like, this is how you talk to Jesus. And so for me, it's not a formal thing where I have to get down on my knees and some people are very regimented like that and that's what makes them feel close to God. 


[00:15:48] But like I love praying in my car when I'm driving, I just imagine that Jesus is in the passenger seat and we're just chatting and that is the easiest way for me to unburden myself to God. And for me to feel like God cares about what I have to say because I can envision Him with me, listening to me, and then responding. 


[00:16:10] And, so I just want to encourage you, like, you can say the Lord's Prayer word for word and that is sufficient and that will get you somewhere, but if you really want to experience the relationship that God has for you, I would encourage you to talk to him like he's your old friend and not just some guy in the sky. 


[00:16:27] Ben: Yeah, I agree. And you can absolutely talk to God anytime, anywhere. And I do too. I do it all the time. One of the reasons I recommend that people be intentional to start out with is one, it's mostly the discipline. Because discipline is something that you have to learn. It is a skill. And when you're intentional about the way that you're talking to God in the morning, instead of just a thing where you're rolling over, your alarm's going off, you're like, well, okay, I gotta pray. 


[00:16:54] Ugh, God, thank you. No, you know you're gonna be groggy. You know you're gonna be tired. And if you need to, what you can do is you do it at the end of the day. But another reason that I kind of say you might want to be intentional about the way that you're doing it. God is gonna hear you no matter what. He already hears you. 


[00:17:11] And I think that most of the time when you pray, it should be as to an old friend, as to a man, your father who loves you, Abba father. But looking at modern culture, it seems that there's a lot more familiarity that we've gained with God and a lot less reverence. 


[00:17:27] Gina: And 


[00:17:29] Ben: I do think that the familiarity needs to be there because looking at the way the church interacted with God in the past. 


[00:17:36] There were periods where it was 100 percent reverence, there was no familiarity. He is a cold, distant man who is going to smite you with thunder and lightning. But now we've kind of gone in the opposite direction. Where it's, it's not that God is God. That he is beyond our understanding. That he is something we should be in awe of. 


[00:17:56] We're just kind of, okay, he's, he's there. 


[00:17:58] Gina: Yeah, hey God, how's it going? Hey buddy. No, you don't want to be like that. No. 


[00:18:02] Ben: And Like I said, there is absolutely nothing wrong with just talking. Sometimes when you're having a hard time, you just say, God, could you help me out here? And that is every bit as legitimate a prayer as someone who gets down on their knees and folds their hands and close their eyes. 


[00:18:18] All I'm saying is that there is a point in your life where you should be intentional, where you give God a measure of deference and you're intentional and you're disciplined about the way that you do it. Just as there are times in my life where I'm intentional and deferential to my parents. Not always, but sometimes. 


[00:18:39] Gina: No, that's a great point. And for somebody who is seeking, having a routine, having spiritual disciplines, if you don't know what that is, you should look it up because that will help you figure out your routine for reading your Bible and praying and you have times of fasting and supplication and there's just different ways of praying and of speaking with God that Show him different levels of reverence like you were saying ben. 


[00:19:06] So thank you. 


[00:19:07] Ben: Oh, no problem And thank you for bringing up that they don't have to because I do think that we're going to have some Some people who are seeking god maybe for the first time in their lives and they don't know very much and they they may be Intimidated when they go to church for the first time and they hear all this church speak Yeah, and it sounds like everybody's got everything figured out and there are all these rules and say the reality is is that there are no rules Specifically when talking to God he has heard you your entire life and there are probably points where you have Specifically prayed to him and maybe not even realized you were doing it So I would encourage whoever is listening if you are one of those people who doesn't know anything about church at all And all of this seems intimidating to you, and all of it seems scary. 


[00:19:50] Don't let it scare you. The church speak develops over time because it's kind of just a cultural thing. But you don't have to be fluent in it. Please don't let it scare you, and please don't let that drive you away from church. 


[00:20:01] Gina: And don't feel like you have to know the big words to talk to God. Like, I'm several years in now, I've been a Christian for almost eight years, and sometimes the first words out of my mouth are, God, I'm so angry! 


[00:20:14] Cody: Well, the Bible actually tells us not to have big words. Yeah. That's true. Like the pagans. God doesn't hear 


[00:20:21] Ben: bigger words better. I actually do think he can get bored. I've known some people who, who would pray like, Oh, heavenly father. Oh God. Oh Lord almighty. The one who raised up the dead raises the dead. 


[00:20:35] Now the God, the father of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Oh God, the almighty, the provider, the, and they go on for a good 


[00:20:43] Gina: alphabet of every name of God, 


[00:20:47] Ben: the ABCs of the almighty. Oh, I pray. And, and God, I imagine is, is sitting there in the audience going, is he going to get to it at some point? I don't think the prayer started yet. 


[00:21:03] Cody: Obviously, we need a podcast on prayer though, because we got a little bit off topic. Just a little bit. Yeah. But, uh, but 


[00:21:10] Gina: that's a huge part. 


[00:21:11] Cody: It is. It is. I don't think the church does a good enough job of. Teaching people what prayer is and how to pray agree If you 


[00:21:21] Gina: want to feel love from God prayer is your avenue you want to if you want to really think about The relationship side prayer is the relationship side 


[00:21:31] Ben: Because all it is is talking to God and you can't really have a relationship with someone unless you speak to them 


[00:21:36] Gina: Right. 


[00:21:36] Ben: But 


[00:21:37] Cody: prayer can also be listening too, like it is the relational aspect. So being silent in prayer is also a good thing. 


[00:21:43] Ben: Which is another one of those things that is frequently passed over in terms of prayer. We always talk about things we should pray about. But oftentimes we're not told to just have moments where we're silent and we're seeking God's word in our lives 


[00:21:57] Gina: I think that's called being prayerful 


[00:21:59] Ben: prayerful 


[00:22:02] Cody: Yeah prayer is not used to unload on God of all of your wants on this relational aspect though If God loves us Why does he seem so distant the the average person if if even churchgoers? 


[00:22:20] You would say that they've not had a real burning bush encounter with God. And if he loves us, why doesn't he give us that? 


[00:22:31] Gina: And I think you should add that you've literally said those words about yourself. I'm 


[00:22:36] Cody: speaking that from experience. I've, I've said that, like, why don't I get that burning bush experience? 


[00:22:43] Like, where's my, you know, why can't I go into the 10 of meaning every night and just glow and. What you would expect from our worldly view of relationship. 


[00:22:57] Gina: Can I interrupt you to share like a quick story about that? 


[00:23:00] Ben: No, but you can tell a quick story. 


[00:23:04] Gina: So. Cody used to talk about really wanting that burning bush moment, and I was not very knowledgeable at that time in scripture. 


[00:23:14] And one of the things that I noticed about him was that he would get so, like, hungry for God that he would just bury himself in the Word and, you know, all of these crazy books that break down scripture in ways that I had never heard of before. And I would tell him like, Cody, you glow, like you glow when you read scripture and when you're hungry for God, you do glow. 


[00:23:37] And I didn't know that Moses glowed. And he kept talking about all of these experiences of Moses and here he was and he was glowing. And so, you know, when I told him that, I think he started to realize that. He was having those experiences with God, but it's not something that came easy to him. And I think sometimes it takes being vulnerable and saying, I don't think I'm hearing from him in order to really hear from him. 


[00:24:03] Ben: Now, I think for a lot of the people who ask this question specifically, it's, okay, why doesn't God specifically manifest right in front of me? Why doesn't he just talk to me in plain English? Why do we have to go through all this rigmarole? Well, part of it is that he has done this in the past. He has revealed himself directly to individuals and The the example that was given earlier today when he revealed himself to the entirety of Israel Pretty much everyone was terrified and they asked him never to do it again So, that isn't to say that literally everyone in the world would have that reaction. 


[00:24:39] And there are actually stories that have been told, assuming they're telling the truth, of people who have heard directly from God, who have heard him speak directly to them, audibly, and in a voice that they could actually hear. There was one woman who was a former shock jock. What is that? Basically someone who's on the radio who says very shocking things. 


[00:25:00] Oh. 


[00:25:02] Gina: Okay. 


[00:25:03] Ben: Um, and she was one of the most foul mouthed people you could possibly hear. And she was constantly slandering God and saying absolutely horrible things. And she described one day when she was in front of a live studio audience, and then she heard the voice of God come from the audience. And he basically told her that she would not be able to speak. 


[00:25:22] Like, her mouth would be shut until she could recognize that Jesus Christ was Lord. 


[00:25:27] Gina: Oh, wow. 


[00:25:28] Ben: And during that specific show, she suddenly lost the ability to speak. Alright, that's God talking to you. So, there was more to her story than that as well. And it's a pretty good story. I wish I could remember her name. 


[00:25:41] But The point is, is that there are people that he does reveal himself directly to. And it does seem to be that there are frequently cases where It was just about the only way to reach somebody. And there are other instances where God has revealed himself directly through dreams and visions. It's actually a fascinating statistic. 


[00:26:00] One out of every four Muslims that comes to Christianity and converts came specifically because they saw Jesus in a dream. And Jesus came to them and told them that, I mean, obviously all the dreams are different. But the through line that you find through a lot of them is that one, they see Jesus. All of them actually recognizes Jesus to the point where there are actual billboards up in certain parts of the world with the image. 


[00:26:24] And it says, have you seen this man in your dreams called this number? And so they see the same man that everyone can recognize. And then he will tell them something specific. Frequently a person that they need to meet at a specific time. And then they go and At that specific place, at that specific time, they see that specific person they saw in their dreams, and then that person talks to them about Jesus. 


[00:26:49] So, I do feel like the question is more, Okay, so why doesn't he do that to everybody? 


[00:26:53] Where's mine? 


[00:26:54] Ben: Yeah, where's mine? Why do I not get that? And, maybe it will happen. But there are a number of reasons for why that might not happen. 


[00:27:02] Gina: And I would just like to tell for myself, It has not happened for me unless I was absolutely desperately seeking him and not because I wanted anything other than just intimacy with him like you can't just command God to speak and expect him to do so you have to chase him for the right reasons and you Even then you might not hear exactly what you're looking for. 


[00:27:33] Cody: You know, if you look at these encounters and I don't think people in myself when asking that really understood what we were asking for, because one, you mentioned that Ben, where He did present himself to people and they were just terrified. And throughout biblical theophanies, that's what you get is just people end up in the fetal position on the ground and terror, not being able to comprehend the glory that his presence demands. 


[00:28:08] And I don't think people realize that. And the second thing that I think kind of goes without acknowledging is, you know, if you do have this encounter, you're kind of removing the gospel call. You're removing salvation by faith. There is no faith if you know 100 percent for a fact that there is a God. So, you don't, I don't think you're gonna get that God is gonna just smack you in the back of the head, fly you through, you know, millennia past, and you're gonna see all this stuff for the average person. 


[00:28:46] I don't think that's a reasonable ask. 


[00:28:48] Ben: No, you're absolutely right. The more God reveals himself to you, the more responsibility you have for the decisions that you make going forward. 


[00:28:57] Right. 


[00:28:57] Ben: Because at that point, like we said earlier, the fool believes in his heart there is no God. At that point, God has revealed himself to you. 


[00:29:05] There is no question. But when you choose to sin, you are actively turning your back on a God you know is there. There is no question, no interpretation, no doubt. And as horrible as all of those things are, the, the, the inter Well, maybe it wasn't. Maybe it was something else. And the doubts that you feel, those serve a purpose. 


[00:29:27] God is giving you a chance to turn back. He's always giving you the ability to come back from your mistakes. But once you know, more is going to be asked of you. But beyond that, too, one of the reasons that he will often not appear, maybe not directly, but, Giving you experiences, giving you miracles in your life, making his presence felt. 


[00:29:54] Things that are less direct, sometimes he does seem distant in those ways as well. And sometimes the reason for that is the barriers that we put up in our own lives. Sometimes we're actively making choices that are going to push him away. And if he was to break through those, that is a traumatizing thing. 


[00:30:14] It's like with the Israelites, when God emerges in his full glory and a thunderous roar emerges around you, What is true goodness is breaking through into you, into your life, through all of the barriers that you've put up between you and God. And that is a horrifying, traumatic thing. You're being broken apart. 


[00:30:33] That's one of the reasons why we can't stand before God as we are and live, because that would break us. And so in order for him to peacefully do this to a willing person, you have to examine your own life many times, and you have to look at each individual obstacle, which is one of the reasons why this is such a painful and long process. 


[00:30:55] Is that we have so many different things in our lives, and God slowly highlights them. It's why we always feel like, okay, I feel like this wasn't a problem in the past. No, it was. We frequently come to things and we think, okay, I didn't feel like I had an issue with this. You probably did. 


[00:31:09] It's 


[00:31:09] Ben: just God didn't make you feel horrible about it yet because he wanted you to address things one at a time, and God really does feel sympathy for us. 


[00:31:19] He is kind His. His yoke is light. It's one of the things that scripture says, and it does feel weird considering all the horrible things that we do and all the things we constantly doing wrong. But God doesn't expect you to become perfect overnight. It's one of the reasons he sacrificed himself for you is because is because he knows that you're not perfect. 


[00:31:38] And in this lifetime you never will be. And he is slowly sanctifying you. He is slowly exposing the parts of you that aren't right with him. And he's making them right. And so until all of that's right, you're not going to be able to stand before the Almighty. And during that process of sanctification, God is going to give you little road signs. 


[00:31:56] As C. S. Lewis talked about, you're going to see little things every once in a while. And sometimes big things. And sometimes the things that you manage to clean up in your life will actually bring you so close to God that it feels almost like he's in the room with you. I've known people like that. I think Gina's kind of like that. 


[00:32:13] I don't know Gina super well, but for my father definitely He's not a perfect man But the aspects of his life that would stand most strongly between him and God aren't there the same way that they are with me And so he's able to go into the Holy of Holies So often he spent so much of his life there And he spent so much time in the presence of God, and he's always hungrily waiting for more things to be told to him. 


[00:32:38] And, you know, it's something that I envy about my dad's relationship with God. But just because you don't have that, it doesn't mean that God dislikes you. Or he doesn't have favor with you. Because often times, the struggles that you have, you're having for a reason. And the understanding that you get through fighting those struggles is something you're going to be able to teach to someone else. 


[00:32:59] Gina: Well, and they're gonna, they're gonna teach you where to turn. 


[00:33:02] Ben: Absolutely. 


[00:33:03] Cody: There's a lot to the hearing God and one, like you mentioned Ben and Gina, is there could be something you're doing that's preventing you and you're getting in your own way. You could be hearing God and not recognize His voice. You could be hearing God and rejecting His voice because you don't like what He's saying to you. 


[00:33:25] But if, if you're also looking at the examples we have in scripture. Where even the, the old priests, the act of preparing themselves to go into the presence of God is lost on a lot of people today because covering themselves in blood and just the massacre that that is. And it's not to be gruesome, it's not to be gross, or God demands this weird stuff, but what it takes to prepare you to be in the presence of God too. 


[00:34:00] And we don't have to worry about that as much because we're on the Other side of the sacrifice of Jesus and his cleansing of us for that purpose of communing with God directly instead of having, and not necessarily having to, but the Old Testament has the kind of mediators like the prophets and priests and kings where we're called a royal priesthood after Jesus now. 


[00:34:28] That we can commune directly with him, but just the idea of preparing yourself for that mental space. How many people do that before they ask for this encounter? How are they preparing themselves for holiness or being in the presence of God? How are they preparing themselves for that? 


[00:34:47] Gina: So, I don't know, we're, our conversation is kind of reminding me of an experience that I recently had. 


[00:34:55] And just why it's a big deal to be in God's presence and, and how strongly his presence affects us because like we want the burning bush and we want the. overwhelming encounter, but then we're not necessarily prepared for what it brings. And, you know, the fetal position thing that Cody talked about, it's like, if you're fully in the presence of God, a lot of times it does bring fear. 


[00:35:20] My uncle died on Easter Sunday and I was there when he passed. And the presence of the Holy Spirit in the room was so overwhelming that I almost passed out. And I, that had nothing to do with me. It was all to do with my uncle. But God's presence is more powerful and impactful than anything that you could imagine. 


[00:35:43] And so having that desire, you should also have an awareness that you're asking for something more powerful than you've ever thought of in your mind. Like just his presence alone, you know, through the Holy Spirit can overwhelm you or heal you or kill you. But to ask God for his theophanies, it's, um, you're, you're biting off more than you can chew. 


[00:36:14] Ben: Now, you can't hope to contain the ocean in a thimble. 


[00:36:18] Gina: Yeah. 


[00:36:19] Ben: It's an interesting 


[00:36:20] Cody: thought experiment. 


[00:36:22] Ben: Yeah, that was another thing from, from Joy Lewis. Actually she, C. S. Lewis's wife, she mentioned during her conversion, how she felt the presence of God during an absolutely horrible moment in her life. Yeah. 


[00:36:35] where she was fully open and vulnerable and God stepped in. And it was only for maybe 30 seconds. But in those 30 seconds, God was present in that room with her. And those 30 seconds of just God being there, not saying anything, but just being there, was enough to completely divert her for the rest of her life. 


[00:36:56] And I don't know that she ever felt God's presence the same way. But that's the way she described it. It was only for 30 seconds, but Can you put, can you scoop up the sea into a thimble? You can't. 


[00:37:08] Gina: No. 


[00:37:10] Cody: And I think. Especially today, I mean there's a more modern philosophical thought going around of the argument of reasonable non belief or divine hiddenness, I think is another term that they use for it. 


[00:37:27] And the idea is that God isn't real because he doesn't make himself known. If he, Loved you he would make himself known but that kind of takes away from what we do have that we Know is from God or I expect from God, you know We have the Bible that is an expression that demands a response on God's end from us the same thing with The death of Jesus, you know, that was an ultimate act of love that demands a response from us. 


[00:37:59] So you have these different instances and you can go through the Bible like Adam clearly had interaction and he was active and Adam had a role to play in creation of naming and being the first and all of these different roles of the model idea that God had for us when he first made humans. And then sin enters, and you have Adam and Eve hiding from God. 


[00:38:32] So they were actually the first ones to hide from God, not God hiding from them. And then you can continually follow this out through the Bible, where it just seems like he's getting further and further away. You have the Israelites had the presence of God with them, and then they screwed that up, and that presence left. 


[00:38:51] And the more sin that enters in, or the more They let outside cultures affect how they interacted with God, that hiddenness almost became more prevalent in the interaction with God. So to take this modern philosophical thought of divine hiddenness, and you just have to throw away all of these steps that God has made towards us, and the relationship with us, and us knowing him, and just reject those to, to get to that point. 


[00:39:26] Ben: But I think that the philosophy also rejects the very concept of meaning itself as a proof for God's existence. So again, with modern sensibilities, we tend to say that, no, meaning is whatever you ascribe to something. If I decide that something has meaning, then it does. But I don't believe that anyone actually thinks that. 


[00:39:47] Like when, when you see a sunset, we understand that it's beautiful and beauty is in essence a describing of meaning, that there is something meaningful. Something truly incredible. Something unique and special about a sunset. That we would describe it as beautiful. Why? It's a sunset. It's, it's a bunch of clouds, and it's the earth rotating, and the sun also moving relative to a bunch of other planets. 


[00:40:15] Uh, celestial bodies and moving in a galaxy in a spiraling. 


[00:40:19] Cody: If you described it like that, I'm like, why in the heck would we think 


[00:40:23] Ben: that's beautiful? But the truth is, is that it is. 


[00:40:26] Yes. 


[00:40:27] Ben: And when we're talking about meaning, most of the time it's about us orienting ourselves around something that is objective. 


[00:40:35] If you don't see the sunset as something that's beautiful, if you don't find life a particularly important thing to preserve, generally there is something that is considered wrong with you. It isn't that you just subjectively have something different about the way you perceive beauty. And there are people who will say, No, you know, I find toilets beautiful. 


[00:40:59] And then they'll put them in modern art exhibits. But then, you know, When you ask, why? It isn't simply because, well, I just see it as that. No, they'll give it a Well, you see, a toilet is actually a thing that takes the waste of mankind away. It pulls it, and it takes it away from us. And then it takes that into an area where it can fertilize fields and bring new life. 


[00:41:23] It's taking something that is disgusting, and the justification for it being beautiful is other things that we find beautiful and meaningful. That's the whole. The arguments that they use to try to say that beauty and meaning itself is subjective relies on beauty and meaning not being subjective. 


[00:41:43] Because otherwise all you would have to say is, I just feel it. It just is. I 


[00:41:48] Cody: don't even know how to respond to that. It just is, because I said so. It 


[00:41:54] Ben: just is because I said so. And that's, it's something that does feel much more modern. And it's a bizarre thing. When you look at art from, you know, ages past in every single culture, There are throughlines through all of them, where you can see an attempt at mastery, at either attempting to capture reality in itself through paint, or to try to accent specific aspects of reality that we all would recognize as beautiful. 


[00:42:18] Every single culture throughout all the earth has produced art that is beautiful, that all of us can look at and say, it has value. And then there's some of it more recently where we look at it and we say, okay, what, what, what's the point? And even that stuff, you can argue is beautiful, or has meaning, or has value, because of things that we all agree objectively do. 


[00:42:39] You can say that Picasso's work has value because it's subversive, because it forces you to look at things in a new way, and that that in and of itself is valuable. And we all agree that looking at things in a different perspective is valuable. But yes, you have to use the objective standard to prove the objective standard doesn't exist, which is a bizarre thing. 


[00:42:59] Cody: Yeah, I like the argument from Beauty, too, because I'm gonna paraphrase Romans here, but, um, Romans 1. 20 talks about God's invisible qualities and divine nature is known from creation, and art has been something that's kind of transcended time, like, people still love art from hundreds, thousands of years ago, and That's going to be how it progresses through the ages, usually it grows in popularity. 


[00:43:25] But that's just a poor imitation of what they're actually trying to capture in the first place. You know, you have these landscapes. Okay, who made the landscape? You have starry night. To me, the stars just speak of the splendor of creation and the peak of creation. You know, how can you look at, if you've ever been to a dark night sky area and seen the Milky Way with your naked eye, like, it's hard to not just think, or to think, okay, this is just random coincidence that we're here, for me anyway, but. 


[00:44:05] No, yeah, I agree. 


[00:44:07] Gina: I want to close out just with this final question, and this is, I just want to know from everybody's perspective how you know that God loves us. 


[00:44:21] Ben: Well, for me specifically, the reason I know that God loves me is the same reason I know that my dad loves me. It's because he showed me. And ultimately, that's going to be the greatest proof for anyone. 


[00:44:34] It's not because you're specifically told. If I was simply told that my dad loved me by someone else, who wasn't him, like, okay, okay, it may be the truth, but how do I know? In the end, the best way that you're going to know that God loves you is that He reveals that to you. And He will reveal that, as we talked about, through prayer, through time with Him. 


[00:44:55] And that first time where He He shows himself to you, where he reveals even the tiniest part of his presence to you. It is a life changing event. Because you feel an ocean of love. You feel emotions that you don't really understand. You feel a magnitude of someone being there. You always feel when someone else is in the room. 


[00:45:22] Like you, it's, it's not as if you always sense when someone else is in a room, but whenever someone else is in a room, you, you get a feeling. It's a different feeling from when you're completely alone, but when you're sitting alone in a room and suddenly you feel the Lord come into it, it is a more full room than you've ever felt before. 


[00:45:40] It's as if the whole world is full and everything beyond it is full and there's nothing else but that room. Everything is full and nothing is there. And you're just there with someone who loves you, and he may not even say anything specifically to you in that moment, but you feel him there. For me, the first time it happened, it was only a fraction of a moment. 


[00:46:03] It wasn't even a few seconds, but it was there. And I felt God in his entirety. And it is enough to change a person's life. And when you feel him, it's impossible to ever conjure up the same feelings again. But your spirit remembers. It remembers. And if I ever turn from God, I'm going to have to reject that. 


[00:46:23] And I couldn't in good conscience do it. 


[00:46:26] Gina: Thank you for sharing. 


[00:46:27] Ben: Yeah, no problem. 


[00:46:29] Cody: What about for you? Why do you know God loves you? What's your proof? 


[00:46:36] Gina: I think I remember what it felt like when I didn't know who Jesus was. And I remember scrambling all the time. to find a way to feel the kind of love that I knew was out there for me, but I didn't know where it was. 


[00:46:56] And the second that I accepted Jesus, my life didn't dramatically change. I didn't have this, like, I'm brand new experience. My life got harder. But as I've grown in my faith and in my maturity, I've understood that God loves me and has saved me from more than I understood at the time. And the experiences that I have are going to help people who are going through the same thing feel like They're not invisible and it's just going to grow that love. 


[00:47:34] It's just going to spread it. And so that's, that's the thing that gives me hope is knowing that like the hard stuff I've lived through wasn't for nothing. It wasn't just you live and you hurt and you die and um, you know, then there's Christ. If you've ever watched the passion and just tried to imagine the kind of stuff Jesus went through for us. 


[00:48:00] You can't deny God's love, because there's not a single person on this earth that I would truly pull that off for Even my children like I don't I don't know how jesus bore that. What about you cody? 


[00:48:18] Cody: for me sometimes In the past i've thought to myself That I wish I didn't grow up in a Christian household because I didn't know the drastic difference with God or without God. 


[00:48:36] There's no time in my life that I can think that I didn't know God or I didn't believe in God. Even when I was going through processing my own beliefs, you know, after I got out of the house and you're introduced to the world and you're more pressured into that lifestyle and that way of life. There has never been a time where I, I just rejected God or didn't believe that there was a God. 


[00:49:01] But with that, I also think I've been blessed because I can't think of a time where I've struggled with a situation that I haven't been able to give to God. Like you mentioned earlier, because yoke is light. And it's not that I haven't dealt with difficult things in my life, but I've also always had this. 


[00:49:23] person, not necessarily a person, but this God, this dad to run to and give what I'm struggling with to, and that be taken away from me and makes no sense. So that's how I've felt loved by God. 


[00:49:47] Gina: Thank you so much for taking the time to listen to our podcast today. If you liked what you heard, please feel free to subscribe and share and leave a positive review. And if you would like to connect with us on social media, you can do so on Instagram and Facebook at the logic of God. You can also send us an email at main dot the logic of God at gmail. 


[00:50:09] com. Thanks again for listening. We hope you have a great day.

Does God Love Us? Part 1

[00:00:00] Cody: Hi, thank you for tuning in to the Logic of God podcast. I'm Cody. 


[00:00:08] Gina: I'm Gina. 


[00:00:09] Ben: And I'm Ben. If you're returning, thank you for coming back and if you are a new guest, welcome. 


[00:00:20] Gina: Today we're going to be discussing the subject based on our core assumption of God loves us. And that assumption delves into What it looks like to be loved by God, how God could possibly love us, why he would love us, and how to access that love through a relationship with him. So we hope that you enjoyed today's episode and we hope you have a great day. 


[00:00:48] Ben: Why would God love us to begin with? Because even according to the Bible, humanity is pretty twisted and evil. So why would he love us? And a couple of verses that we could pull from there would be Genesis 6 5 and Psalm 8 4. For Genesis 6 5, 


[00:01:07] Gina: Do you want me to read it? 


[00:01:08] Ben: Yes, please. 


[00:01:09] Gina: When the Lord saw that human wickedness was widespread on the earth, and that every inclination of the human mind was nothing but evil all the time, the Lord regretted that He had made man on the earth, and He was deeply grieved. 


[00:01:25] Shall I continue? 


[00:01:27] Ben: No, I think that's enough. Okay. I think the whole, every inclination of the heart and the mind all the time, 24 hours a day being evil, I think that covers it. Yeah. And then for Psalm 8, 4, 


[00:01:39] Gina: What is a human being that you remember him a son of man that you look after him I feel like I'm in the wrong version. 


[00:01:46] Ben: No, that's fine. 


[00:01:47] Gina: Okay. 


[00:01:48] Ben: I mean, I do think we'll probably have some Listeners who were sicklers about the version. Yeah, 


[00:01:52] Gina: that was the CSB. 


[00:01:54] Ben: Well, okay carry on 


[00:01:56] Cody: KJB 


[00:01:57] Ben: only But that's a subject matter for a future episode 


[00:02:03] Gina: Okay. So what about these verses leads you to Believe that God could possibly love us. 


[00:02:10] Ben: Well, those verses are more just a reinforcement of the idea that the Bible does point out the fact that the human heart is inclined towards evil. 


[00:02:20] And it's not just these verses, there are others as well, but this is more just a couple of quick points to point out. So that does ultimately lead to the question why does he love us? And there are a few answers. Uh, but first I'd kinda like to pick your guys' brains about that. Cody, you, what do you think? 


[00:02:38] Cody: Why does God love us? Because he created us. We're in his image. 


[00:02:44] Ben: I mean, that kind of brushes on the idea of why. I mean, we, you guys are both parents, you love your children. And, I mean, sure, I'm sure you guys love other people's kids, but your kids specifically are yours, and you made them. And I'm sure that you love them much more than you love other people's kids. 


[00:03:02] Because they're yours, 


[00:03:04] Gina: right? 


[00:03:06] Ben: That's also an assumption. We'll call that assumption number five. I assume you guys love your own children more than you love other people's children. 


[00:03:13] Cody: Oh, yes. 


[00:03:14] Gina: Yeah, don't mess with my kids. 


[00:03:16] Ben: Absolutely. 


[00:03:18] Gina: For me, when Cody and I are having conversations about growing our family, sometimes the topic comes up of like, like, why do we want to have children so bad? 


[00:03:31] I don't know. In comparison to why did God want to make us? And the only explanation that I can come up with is just that he wanted us and he chose us and he loves us and I can't explain what about me he would love because when I consider my character and my past and what the Bible says about me like we're not it. 


[00:03:54] Really logically that lovable but he loves us. Anyway, 


[00:03:59] Ben: yeah So I would say a big part of it is that part of God's nature is love Addressed in one of the other episodes. What is goodness? Anything that leaves to love joy peace patience kindness goodness, which I recognize is redundant goodness kindness faithfulness gentleness and self control All of those are gifts of the Spirit. 


[00:04:19] I probably should have clarified in that episode, so I'm sorry about that for those of you who don't know the scriptures super well. But according to the Bible, according to the Apostle Paul, the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self control. 


[00:04:34] Against such things there is no law. And so, these are all the fruits of the Holy Spirit, and that is an aspect of who God is. So, if one of His fruits is love, you would expect Him to love, and what would He love? Well, He loves the things that He's made. He loves Himself. He loves the Son, He loves the Spirit, and He loves the Father, because those are all a part of Him. 


[00:04:57] But also he loves his creation and in part that is because that is who he is now We'll go into some of the the harder parts of that in a bit, but for now Love being a part of his character is something that's stated. And So yes, we do have inclinations to evil. We do have inclinations to reject God and to push him away But it is still a part of who he is You That he loves us because that is a central aspect of his unchangeable unshakable nature. 


[00:05:33] It doesn't matter what we do, his love will always be a part of who he is and thus he will constantly express it. 


[00:05:40] Cody: Does he express that in the same way that we do though? 


[00:05:43] Ben: Yeah, that's a good question. 


[00:05:46] Cody: Because in certain aspects, love in the full spectrum of Earthly, humanistic love brings all kinds of emotions. 


[00:05:57] Anger, joy, jealousy, selfishness. Like it brings a full spectrum of emotions. Does God get those from loving us as well? 


[00:06:09] Ben: I wish I could remember the verse, specifically. I do remember. Is it Mark? It's, I believe it's James 4, 5. That God jealously longs for the spirit he has caused to dwell within us. 


[00:06:20] Gina: James 4, 5. 


[00:06:22] Or do you think scripture says without reason that he jealously longs for the spirit he has caused to dwell in us? 


[00:06:29] Ben: I do think that his love, rather, our love is shadow of what God's love is. It is a lesser form because we're made in his image. But because we're made in his image, we're capable of the same feelings and emotions that God is. 


[00:06:47] They're just not quite the same. They're a shadow or a copy, as C. S. Lewis would say. 


[00:06:52] Gina: I wouldn't even argue that they're, like, human emotion is It's heavily unstable compared to God. 


[00:06:58] Ben: I'd say that's probably a good characterization. 


[00:07:01] Cody: And even in that James scripture, does, like, when we have jealousy, is it the same as God's jealousy for not worshiping other gods before him? 


[00:07:13] Ben: No, I would say that it's very different. I know when a lot of people see the word jealousy, they think, oh, okay, so God's sinning there. Well, no, because when humans are jealous of something, Like, let's say that I look out the window here, and I see a really nice truck sitting in that driveway, and I think, well, you know what, that truck's not mine. 


[00:07:30] I wish that truck was mine. You know what, you guys have a very nice truck, and I, dang it, I just, I don't own it. I wish I did though. When God looks at his creation, that's all his. He's allowed us to reject him. He's given us the ability to choose whether or not to follow him and to accept his love. And so when we choose not to, he does long jealously for the things that we shift our attention to. 


[00:07:58] Our love and our affections and our wants and desires. But that's because he has the right to it. And so, when we take that away, He allows us to do it. But in the end, it doesn't change the fact that it's His by right because He made us. So yeah, His jealousy is different because He does own everything. 


[00:08:17] It's all His. 


[00:08:19] Cody: I do like that, because we are His, He did create us, but also, in this topic of love, does God love us? And jealousy that He has, Is he knows what's best for us in that love and us not reciprocating that to him. He knows that's not what's best for us. So he gets jealous of that and there, there is negative consequences for not following through with that reciprocated love back to him. 


[00:08:49] And I think that's where a lot of his jealousy comes from. is stemmed from is actually still in the root of love, not necessarily just the fact that he created us so he deserves that love, yes, but also because he knows what's best for us and he does love us. So that's where that's coming from. 


[00:09:07] Gina: But I want to even take a step back because I don't think humankind's definition of love is even related to what God's love looks like. 


[00:09:19] I think we can sometimes attack the word love from a perspective of romance and like worldview love, which has more to do with love between two people than love between people and God. I don't think that we can really form, like, a healthy understanding of love without first knowing what that, like, definition of God's love is, and you would have to basically train yourself out of believing that what you see in a Hallmark movie is true love. 


[00:09:54] Ben: Yeah, thankfully, we are actually told what God's definition of love is. Do you have that verse up? There is actually a verse, I can't remember exactly where it is, but if you've been to a wedding, you've probably heard this before. Yet love is patient, love is kind, it does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud, it is not self seeking, it keeps no record of the wrongs. 


[00:10:14] Gina: It's 1 Corinthians 13. 


[00:10:16] Ben: All right, would you mind bringing that up? 


[00:10:18] Gina: Sure. 


[00:10:19] Ben: Because I don't, I can't do it all by rote. I've been to enough weddings in my family that I've heard enough times that I know the gist. 


[00:10:27] Gina: Love is patient. Love is kind. It does not envy. It does not boast. It is not proud. It does not dishonor others. 


[00:10:35] It is not self seeking. It is not easily angered. And it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil, but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, and always perseveres. Love never fails. 


[00:10:50] Cody: That's awesome. I love that definition of love, but like, I also think the culture that we live in today, and just the American culture we live in, and the English that we have fails us because there is not multiple definitions of love in our vocabulary. 


[00:11:10] Love is the same love that you use to say, I love my wife or I love my kids or I love this piece of cheese. It's all the same, but if you look at other languages, they have different descriptive ways to say love of, you hear the agape love in the Greek. We don't have that in. Our English language that I'm aware of. 


[00:11:33] Gina: But that's why we play the game that we play with our children. We're not allowed to say we love something. That's not something. Would you die for it? Yeah. 


[00:11:43] Ben: Yeah, so Cody, you bring up a very good point and bringing up the words like agape and eros. So the Greeks actually did have a number of different words and those words are used in the Bible, not interchangeably, they are used with purpose. 


[00:11:56] So there's agape or agape, there's phileia or phileo or eros. And I think those are the three main ones. There's Agape, Fileo, Eros. And C. S. Lewis actually did a number of different college lectures on this back in the day and they were recorded. And I'd highly recommend anyone go and look those up because they are very good. 


[00:12:19] It's kind of weird hearing C. S. Lewis. In an actual lecture, he talks very sophisticated and dro kind of English, but agape, , . See, he brings, he brings up a lot of very good points, distinguishing the different kinds of love. And it is true that in English we just kind of have love, just that one word, which is unfortunate. 


[00:12:48] I'm not sure why it is that we have the one word, whereas our root language has the different ones. But, yes, I, there is kind of a through line though with all of the loves. And it is that at the foundation of each love, there is a desire to see the best in the person that you're looking at. Whether that's man's love for God, or man's love for his brother, or man's love for Oh, Storge! 


[00:13:15] That was the fourth one. Sorry, I just broke the flow completely. There were four. But yeah, the through line is your family, your close family, your friends, God, or the person you love. You're always seeking the best for that person. And what Paul put down is that through, that through line. Through all of the loves, that's what you should see. 


[00:13:36] But more than any is that love that God has for us and that we should have for God. 


[00:13:41] Cody: Yeah, and where I was going with that is, like, you have all these different definitions in these other languages, but God's definition is so much greater than what we can express or even put on paper with any descriptive factor. 


[00:13:58] Gina: Well, it's like a marriage. You sign up for a marriage through a covenant and it's for better or for worse. We had this conversation with our daughter earlier today. It's like if your marriage goes bad and her example was, well, what if your significant other like hits you or is an alcoholic? It's like you don't just give up and throw it away. 


[00:14:19] And our definition of love is so twisted that we don't even really understand the value of the covenant or of for better for worse. And God actually does. God is unconditionally going to love us no matter what we do. But We have to have the repentance factor. We have to have the faithfulness factor and the acceptance of Jesus Christ. 


[00:14:44] And if we don't have those things, then we're excluding ourselves from that love. But that love is perfect. And it's so perfect that it's like not even really understandable to us. 


[00:14:54] Cody: So when we're not perfect though, does God feel the same emotions that we do when somebody is unfaithful to us? And like a good scriptural reference to this, or idea from scripture is like this, Book of Hosea, and how Israel is related to this prostitute. 


[00:15:19] So, does God feel the same emotions? And what does that look like in relation to how we experience love with our significant others or friends who might backstab us or are unfaithful to us, and then we, on the other hand, also do that to God? What is his emotional reaction to that? 


[00:15:39] Ben: If the Bible is any indication, some pretty visceral and hard emotions when it comes to betrayal. 


[00:15:47] And it's not because he doesn't see it coming, he obviously does. But the reality is that he is so many different things to us. Not only is he just, he's our ultimate father, our heavenly father. He's our creator. And he's the creator of everything around us. He's the one who allows us to feel the good feelings that we feel. 


[00:16:07] He's the one who enables us to have the free will that we have to reject him in the first place. He's the one who continuously forgives us for all of the negative things that we do. He is ultimately the judge and the jury when it comes to our judgment. And he's the one who has the absolute standard for the good and the evil. 


[00:16:26] He understands better than anyone what it is. I like that. And so, when we decide we're going to take ourselves from him, and by all rights, he has the right to us, we are performing the ultimate betrayal. And the more you know about what you're doing, the more it hurts. And I would say that the times where God shows the most visceral reactions are when people know better. 


[00:16:57] than to do what they do. When God punishes Israel, oftentimes it's in the wake of Him doing something incredible. A point where everyone has viewed his power and his love and his grace and his ability to bring them up out of impossible odds. One of the best examples is the worshipping of the golden calf when Moses goes up the mountain. 


[00:17:19] He has just brought them out of Israel. He's bringing them through the desert. He's providing for every need they possibly could have. They know he is real. They know he's there. They know that he is willing to help them through everything. And he's bringing them to a land that he promised them generations ago and is finally here. 


[00:17:36] Fulfilling in their lifetime something they knew was going to happen, that they had prophecies for. And what do they do? Because Moses has gone a little too long, they decide to make some golden calves to worship. Now, we all laugh at that, and we all say, that's just the dumbest thing ever. And to be fair, it is. 


[00:17:58] We all do that to an extent in our own lives. I think that oftentimes we'll go from a period where we're very close to God and we can feel his presence. We can practically hear his voice in our heart, in our head. We know what he wants us to do and we'll even see miracles in our own lives often. And then we go from that high to, okay, I can't hear you. 


[00:18:22] I can't feel you. I don't have direction. And you just came from a point where God proved himself to you. And now, through this period of your life, for whatever reason he's distant, and maybe he's asking you to wait, maybe he's trying to teach you something, maybe you have put an obstacle between yourself and him that's enabled you to block him out, and you don't realize it. 


[00:18:47] But so often, our first reaction, even after God has proved himself to us, is, well you clearly don't love me. The fool says in his heart there is no God. So often we attribute that to atheism. That's not actually what the verse is about. When we sin, we are essentially convincing ourselves in that moment God doesn't exist. 


[00:19:10] Because if he was standing behind us watching us, just like if our boss was standing behind us at work, we wouldn't cheat on time or we wouldn't cheat on assignments. If we truly believe God is there, we would understand and we would behave. We would seek him out. We would do what's right. In those moments, we reject them completely. 


[00:19:30] And it's the same thing that the Israelites did. Sorry, that is a bit of a tangent, but 


[00:19:35] Cody: no, I like that. And I think it's relevant to the discussion we're talking about why or how God could love us, but also What makes us forget so easily, we read this and you brought it up to the Israelites that you read it and you think they're dumb because they go through all of these miraculous events and you put yourself there and it's like, Oh, I would never do that if God was parting the waters or making, what is it rain from heaven and like all of these different things that happened to them. 


[00:20:10] But then we take what has happened in our own lives and so easily forget it as well and we're in the same boat Why do we? Forget so easily 


[00:20:22] Gina: because we're waiting and we don't like waiting and there's a verse for that second Peter 3, 9, The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. 


[00:20:35] Instead, he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. That's my verse for that, because we have to wait, and we have to exist in a world that is completely imperfect. The reward for that waiting is heaven, but we have to be patient. And if we get distracted and we make a golden calf and replace God and reject him, then we're defying his desire to have unity with everybody that he's ever created. 


[00:21:06] Ben: And we've been given every tool to be patient. We've been given the knowledge of who God is. We've been given For many of us, and I'm guilty of making my own golden calves in a sense as well, we've all been shown in one way or another His goodness, His grace, His love. And even if you've never felt that personally, and I do pray that every single person listening to this has or will, you have been given the ultimate gift in that Christ Himself, God incarnate, came and took your burden. 


[00:21:39] Your sin and your punishment and he took that on himself If you know that and you truly believe that when you go through a hard time For whatever reason God has for putting you through it suddenly the fact that it's tough and the fact that it hurts Causes us to doubt and we've been given every single tool to say no, it's okay There is a reason and there was actually I'll A little bit before this podcast, we were discussing Job, and Job is one of those interesting stories where Job is given every single reason to doubt God, and he's given No justification at the end of the story for why God does what he does. 


[00:22:19] And in any other culture, in any other situation, you would expect the story to end where God comes out and reveals exactly why everything happened to Job. And it would explain like, look, this is, your children sinned against me, that's why I took them from you. And you did X, Y, and Z, and that's why I allowed all these horrible things to happen to you. 


[00:22:37] Or this is what will happen to you in the future as a result of what, but God doesn't do that. Instead, God comes forward and says, It's not about what you think you deserve. I am God and I know what I'm doing. And you don't. And that is a very hard pill to swallow. It's the hardest pill. Because we do feel like we're owed an explanation. 


[00:23:01] Because why, why do these bad things happen to us? In the end, God does have a purpose for that. And you can either accept that, and accept that good will come from it because He is good and He loves you, Or you can doubt that and that will slowly lead you to despair. 


[00:23:19] Cody: Yeah. And we, a lot of people get caught up on that concept of job that you're describing and like the only thing I can tell people is just we have such a small linear view of what is going on. 


[00:23:34] We have no idea really. What is going on behind the scenes? And I wish I could remember the topic or where it was at, but Jordan Peterson basically went on this huge tangent of even in his profession and field of study, you don't instantly see the negative effects. But if you take one negative action and trace it over a long period of time, you'll end up seeing what negative response that action caused, no matter what it is. 


[00:24:07] If it goes against God's purpose, It's going to be, have a negative impact on your life in one way or another. 


[00:24:16] Gina: I just, I don't know. I really liked what Ben shared about how you use those trials for us, Cody and I going through multiple miscarriages. Like I made the decision. When it started happening that I was going to be mad at God and that didn't do me any good and it threw us into marital problems and depression and problems with our living children and Family problems just everywhere we went there were problems And it was really because of the decision that I had made without consulting Kody or God or anybody That I was just going to be mad at God and accuse him of causing it it and allowing it. 


[00:25:00] And that was so wrong. And after it's been five years now, we have finally gotten to a point where we can use it for God and for his glory and for people who are going through something similar. And I think the lie from Satan is that nobody could understand what you're going through. Cause it feels too big and too bad and too hard. 


[00:25:21] And it's just such a lie. So I just, if you're listening and you're mad at God right now, I want to encourage you to stop and consider how you could use what's going on for God's glory, because you're going to find that you're less lonely than you've ever been by using your trial for God's glory than if you use your trial just to be mad at God. 


[00:25:43] Cody: 100 percent agree with that. Like, and end the moment. It sucks. After the fact, it still sucks. But being able to see the bigger picture after coming out of it, we weren't perfect going through it. But, you know, thankfully, we got to a point where God was able to reveal to us the purpose that we went through those trials. 


[00:26:06] And not that you should be happy that you're going through that, but it can be used for good. And 


[00:26:13] Gina: He received us. And I think it's just because we made the decision to use those things that we struggled with. to serve him instead of to hate him. 


[00:26:39] Ben: Well, I think we also, first, thanks a lot, you guys, for sharing that because that is a very intimate thing. 


[00:26:45] And it's, I imagine that was a very hard time in your lives. I think we tend to get a picture when we're going through these things that God is sitting there aloof and rolling his eyes as we're questioning him. And as we're going through those very hard times. There's a story that C. S. Lewis son, Douglas Gresham, tells about his own walk with God and his own journey to Christianity. 


[00:27:10] There was a point where C. S. Lewis wife, Joy Gresham, She had cancer. It was the first of, I think, two times where she had it. And she was dying, and she was in a very bad state, and Douglas had been informed of the fact that she was not doing well, and he was walking, I believe, home at the time. And he was walking by a church, and he felt compelled to go in, and he said that he opened up the gate, and it felt as if he was passing from the Shadowlands into the real world. 


[00:27:40] That everything felt true and vibrant and real and full of life. And he sat down in the church and he felt the presence of God there with him. And the thing that struck him was that the presence that he felt there felt anguish. It was sad. It was more sorry about what was going on than he felt. There was more grief than the grief he felt. 


[00:28:10] And there's more to Douglas story, but the point of bringing that up is that God doesn't do this because he's enjoying it. He actually feels worse about the pain that these situations inflict than we feel about the situation. He knows that you're hurting, and he isn't happy about it. And the only reason he's doing it is because it's necessary. 


[00:28:38] Gina: Well, and I would even clarify, like, God doesn't kill, God doesn't steal, God doesn't destroy. So if those things are happening in your life, those are not coming from God. 


[00:28:49] Ben: He can certainly allow those things to happen. And he can stop them if he wants to. So ultimately, if he is not stopping them, He has a reason for doing it. 


[00:29:01] And it kills him inside. It brings him an enormous amount of pain and anguish to allow these things to happen. He can feel sorrow. He can feel grief. He can feel pain, just like we do. And it's, again, just like with the positives, to a much greater degree than we do. But, just because he feels those things, that he empathizes with your position, it doesn't mean that he's going to stop it, just because you feel pain. 


[00:29:29] Because he can see the ultimate fruits of what's going on. 


[00:29:33] Gina: And there's scripture for that, James 1, 2 through 4. 


[00:29:38] Ben: Go for it. 


[00:29:38] Gina: Consider it all joy, my brothers and sisters, when you encounter various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing. 


[00:29:53] There's so many more. 


[00:29:54] Ben: Oh yeah. I'm pretty sure that there is an actual verse that says, and we do have a God who empathizes with our struggles because he became human like we are, but that is a subject for another episode. 


[00:30:09] Cody: Yeah. 


[00:30:10] Gina: Well, even with our, yeah, even with our struggles, once I softened and talked to God about it, I mean, he spoke to me and he said, Gina, do you think I don't understand what it's like to lose a child? 


[00:30:26] And Jesus died in ways that were much more devastating than an embryo. So, we have to take into consideration the fact that God has way more experience than we do. 


[00:30:40] Ben: Yes, that's 


[00:30:41] Cody: very true. More experience and, like, that was devastating because the weight of the world was on his shoulders. I can't say that all babies go to heaven, I don't know. 


[00:30:50] What happens there, but my personal belief is yes, they do. I'm with you on that. I agree like Maybe not all babies go to heaven was the wrong words, but the age of what do they call it the age 


[00:31:04] Ben: of accountability? 


[00:31:04] Cody: Yes, so I can't say that's a whole other And I 


[00:31:09] Ben: do think that we could probably do an entire episode just on the age of accountability But yes, I do agree that I think Generally, it's accepted that babies are innocent. 


[00:31:19] They're brought into this world 100 percent pure and they haven't done anything wrong. And they die and they more than likely go to heaven, but we don't know that for sure. We aren't told. So I wouldn't recommend anyone build an entire doctrine around that idea. But for me, I don't see anything wrong with saying that babies go to heaven. 


[00:31:41] Gina: Well, I've had visions and encounters with the Lord that tells me what I believe. Well, 


[00:31:46] Ben: my family has too, but it's tough to, like I said, it's back it 


[00:31:49] Gina: up with doctrine. 


[00:31:51] Ben: It's usually best to back these things up with biblical things. And there isn't much in the Bible specifically about that. So except for one thing from David, but that was with a baby that had been born where it said, I will go to him, but he will not come to me. 


[00:32:08] And he could just be referring about death there, but I don't think so. 


[00:32:12] Gina: Does God have favorites, Ben? 


[00:32:15] Ben: Yeah, I wouldn't say that he has favorites exactly. What I would say is that there are definitely people that he is closer to. Kind of like how there are kids who are closer to their parents and parents who are closer to specific kids. 


[00:32:28] And a good example of this would actually be David. He's a man who is labeled a man after God's own heart. And this isn't a label that's typically given. In fact, I think he's the only person who's been labeled that. Yeah. In the entirety of the Old Testament, and it's kind of weird because when you look at David, you think, okay, so he's a man who committed adultery and murder. 


[00:32:50] He kind of let some things slide 


[00:32:52] Gina: and he like wallowed in self pity quite often. Yes, 


[00:32:55] Ben: he did. He kind of let Israel be taken over by Absalom for a period of time. He shirked his duties a little bit there, not to mention his fatherly duties with one of his daughters, but that's a PG 13 rated R story at best, so I won't go too deep into that, but when you look at David's motivations, when you look at The times in his life where his back was up against the wall and he had every right to take things into his own hands. 


[00:33:24] When Saul was, King Saul was chasing after him just because he was jealous of David's fame and when he had every right to take Saul's life because Saul had attempted to kill him so many times. He had two different times, two different points where he had Saul in his sights and he could have very easily killed him and he chose not to. 


[00:33:47] The reason he gave was because God anointed this man to be king. And he wouldn't lay a hand on God's anointed. David's pursuit was God. He loved God. He spent hours and hours writing psalms about God. All this man could think about, all this man could talk about was God. Pretty much every time you ever see him talk is, it is in some way related to God. 


[00:34:14] Or about tying someone to God. Or about the actions that someone takes that glorifies God. He talks about Goliath being the man who defies the armies of the living God. He talks about Saul being God's anointed. He talks about the Philistines being uncircumcised. And that being a negative against them, because that is a commandment from God. 


[00:34:37] Everything that David was oriented toward God. Now that doesn't mean that he always succeeded, because he didn't. He failed miserably. And I honestly, if I'm being 100 percent honest, that is very comforting to me. Because the man that God says is after his own heart was a flawed person, who failed. And if someone like David could fail as miserably as he did and still be loved by God, that means that we all probably got a little bit of forgiveness there for some of the worst things that we do. 


[00:35:10] A chance to be loved by God as well. But all that is to say that, yeah, there are individuals in the Bible like David, Who are selected for whatever reason typically it's because of their love for God and their motivation But we don't always know that Enoch. He's a guy who didn't die. We don't really know why he didn't die He just didn't die and Elijah He didn't do nearly as much as Elisha did but he was taken up in heaven by chariots of fire Why that was why he was allowed to bypass death. 


[00:35:39] We don't know Maybe he's one of the two witnesses that comes at the end, but that's a story for another time You People have theories about these things, but there's just the truth that God treats certain people a little bit differently. And frequently that is due to either their obedience or their heart. 


[00:35:57] So it's not so much that God has put someone in his sight arbitrarily and said, you know what, this person, I'm going to like them. This person is now favored by God almighty. And now he's going to be amazing. It's more that God knows the heart of a person and chooses them based on that. 


[00:36:16] Cody: And even talking about David, the story how David was selected over his brothers, it was a heart thing. 


[00:36:24] Rather than an appearance or birthright or whatever, it was God saw the heart of David and that's why he picked David. 


[00:36:32] Ben: And the curious thing about David and Saul's story is that Saul was chosen seemingly because of his appearance. He was a full head taller than everyone else in his village. He was strong. 


[00:36:45] He was good looking. He was capable. He was a fierce warrior. But in the end, he was not a good choice. And when you read the story of Saul, when Israel comes to Samuel, who was the last judge of Israel and a prophet, and they ask him to give them a king. Samuel goes to God and he's like, these people want a king. 


[00:37:09] I don't understand, is this okay? And God says, look, it's not a good thing. Explain to them that everything is going to be taken from them. That their lives aren't going to be theirs, but it's going to belong to the king. That the king is going to take the best of everything that you have. But recognize that they are going to choose a king over me. 


[00:37:29] In the end, they are choosing to reject me. It's not simply that they're choosing a king. And so God gave them the king they were looking for. The first king of Israel was what Israel wanted, and it was not a good choice. And the second king of Israel was the king that God chose for himself. 


[00:37:46] Gina: Well, we researched all of the kings of Israel at one point, and there were very few that actually finished well or even did well at all. 


[00:37:56] So Yeah. The construct that they came up with kind of let the rest of the world down. 


[00:38:04] Ben: There were literally only three kings in Israel that actually ruled all of Israel, which is kind of weird when you think about it. All because Israel decided they wanted a king. If they had never chosen a king, if they had never come to Samuel and instead had allowed God and the judges that he chose to continue to rule them. 


[00:38:26] They still would have gone through cycles like they had been where they would fall into sin and their enemies would surround them and then they would cry out to God for help and then God would help them. That system still would have existed, but the second they decide they want a king, a lineage, a bloodline that's going to rule them, that's what causes the fall of Israel and their separation. 


[00:38:52] Within. A couple generations. Sorry, little bit of a tangent. It doesn't have a whole lot to do with God loving us. It's just something I thought was weird. 


[00:39:01] Gina: No, I think the Israelites are kind of the, the perfect example of God's love and just comparison to where we are now, because we don't even have the benefit of seeing all of those miracles and having the same access that the Israelites had to God's presence. 


[00:39:21] Yet. Like we're just as forgetful and ignorant of God's love. 


[00:39:34] You look like you don't agree. 


[00:39:36] Cody: It depends on how you define the presence. I mean, the Israelites had the smoke and fire and the Ark of the Covenant and the mercy seat and all that, but that was done away with and the Holy Spirit came after that. So 


[00:39:58] Gina: The Holy Spirit is a whole lot harder to encounter than something that you don't have to invite in. 


[00:40:05] Cody: Yeah. It's a topic I've been interested in researching but haven't so much as did the Israelites have access to the Holy Spirit like we do now? Or did when Jesus died and he promised the Helper would come, was that the only time that the Helper was there? 


[00:40:26] Ben: Well, I would argue there was not as ready and access to the Holy Spirit. 


[00:40:32] And the prophets do indicate that there was a reason for that, that there was going to be a time that would come in the future where the law would be written on our hearts. And then, of course, there's also what you just mentioned, where Jesus said, I have to leave, but I will send a helper. A helper is coming. 


[00:40:47] And the helper was the Holy Spirit that came down in tongues of fire. And there was a massive outbreaking of all kinds of spiritual gifts that you didn't see In the Old Testament where you did see individual prophets, but there were, they were exceptions rather than the rule, whereas suddenly the Spirit was accessible to anybody. 


[00:41:06] But there are a number of points where you see the Spirit of God coming on someone. There's the prophets obviously, but then there are also people like Samson. Samson's probably one of the more famous examples because he was given an insane amount of physical strength through the power of the Holy Spirit. 


[00:41:23] But it was something that was done based on a condition of obedience. And it was an oddly specific one where he had to leave his hair long. And some people think that's kind of weird. Okay, why would God give such a weird, random hair of all things, come on, but the reality is when you look at a number of different stories, there are seemingly arbitrary things that God asks people to do to walk around the walls of Jericho to throw a stick into the water, and then that will cause an axe head to come up to ask a man to bathe in the Jordan River seven times. 


[00:41:56] And then he'll be cured of leprosy. God asks you to do things that are strange sometimes because 


[00:42:06] there are things that you would expect, things that you would accept, things that you would think, okay this is what I have to do and then because I did X, I will get Y. Sometimes God asks you to do an odd thing or he holds things back for odd reasons because then you know it, there's no other explanation, it had to be him. 


[00:42:27] It is such a strange thing. There's no other explanation. It had to be God. You can't possibly explain in any scientific way why a long hair would give someone super strength. 


[00:42:39] Cody: No. Yeah. 


[00:42:40] Ben: And it seems like an arbitrary thing, but God said, no, don't touch your hair. It is a specific thing. It's a simple thing. 


[00:42:47] It's an easy thing. And yet Samson couldn't help but tell someone it was his hair. Because, well, it's not specifically said why, but it's implied, one, because he was getting frustrated. But also, it seems to be because he didn't think that it would actually leave him. It seems to be that he thought he was actually invincible. 


[00:43:10] That the strength was truly his. And when his hair was gone, it was revealed, no. It's God's. It was always God's. And obedience to him was what gave him his strength. 


[00:43:22] Cody: Yep. Obedience. Yep. Stories that are so crazy that it can only be God. Yep. I like the bronze serpent one. That's just it. So crazy it has to be true. 


[00:43:34] Gina: So if God loves us, why does it sometimes feel like he is constantly punishing us? 


[00:43:47] Cody: Because we're stupid. 


[00:43:51] Ben: This kind of goes back to the periods of time where we feel he's distant and where hard times are happening and We don't understand. You know, Bad things can happen for a number of different reasons, and we also addressed this with the Job story. We won't always be given an explanation as to why. 


[00:44:11] What's important during those time periods is that you choose to be faithful to God, and that you remember that He is who He is, that He loves you, and that He's allowing this to happen to you for your benefit, even if you don't see how it's even possible that could be. Sometimes it's to refine you as gold is refined in the fire. 


[00:44:29] Sometimes it's meant to teach you something, and sometimes it is because of our own doing. And I think it's that more often than we'd like to admit. Sometimes we're making decisions that put a wedge between us and God. We develop an addiction to something that is unhealthy for us. And it's not always something as nefarious as pornography or drugs or whatever. 


[00:44:53] Sometimes. We develop an addiction to a TV show or something. It could be that there was a period of time in your life where you were reading the Bible regularly at night, and you started edging that out because that was the disposable thing in your life. And you start replacing that with something that will satisfy yourself. 


[00:45:13] So, it's not always. Because you deserve it. The story of Job demonstrates that, but I would say that a lot of time it is not specifically that you deserve it, but that you're doing something that's pushing God out. And when you push God out, something else will take his place. And if it's not God, it's not good. 


[00:45:32] Gina: Oh, T shirt. 


[00:45:36] Cody: Well, that would be a good T shirt. 


[00:45:38] Gina: So as far as the different comparisons that you're making between the Old Testament and now, Is God somehow different? Like, then versus now? 


[00:45:49] Ben: Well, no. So, there is a, another verse that says that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. He's unchanging. He is as good now as he was then. 


[00:46:00] The main difference, and I think we will cover this more when we cover the scriptures themselves. When Christ came, He paid the ultimate price for our sin. All sin, the wages of it is death. The free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord. When you look at the Old Testament, There are people there, one, Christ's sacrifice hadn't been done yet, but even setting that aside, these were people who knew, they knew God very well. 


[00:46:31] They saw the fruits of God's labor. They knew him intimately in many cases. And there are points where God revealed himself in his entirety to all of Israel. There's one story in particular where he does actually reveal himself completely, bypassing Moses entirely. And all of Israel hears him and they're terrified and they shrink away. 


[00:46:54] It is through Jesus and through the Spirit that we're able to gain a better access to God. And so, it may seem like he's different, it really isn't. The law now is written on our hearts, and we have access to God through the Holy Spirit. And so Much of the distance that existed because of our sin that pushed him away from us is not there so much. 


[00:47:18] And when you look at a lot of the punishments that were doled out, it was to people who knew better than what they were doing. Now granted, You can say that we'd know better than to do the things that we're doing now, and I would say yes, absolutely. 


[00:47:30] Cody: No, it's, I think people forget too, and one of the reasons why I kind of dislike the New Testament, Old Testament makeup is because you have thousands of years of the Old Testament and the New Testament is centered around about a hundred years. 


[00:47:50] So, it is very small that you can even say that, okay, the God of the New Testament and Old Testament are different. Because it's a very small scope. And then, they forget that in Revelation, it's talking about how Jesus is gonna come back and judge everybody and throw the sinners in the lake of fire. So like, it's not, there is no difference. 


[00:48:13] Ben: Yeah, you bring up a very good point. So, in both the Old and the New Testament. God is represented as both being completely just, but also being completely merciful. We do tend to focus a lot more on the mercy aspect, in part because we love that. We all know that we've sinned. We all know that we've done horrible things. 


[00:48:33] Or most of us do. But we all recognize that God loving us is a wonderful thing, and we love to focus on that love. But the book of Revelation, And a number of points throughout the New Testament even, indicate that God is still just. He is aware of the fact that humanity has placed a wedge between us and Him. 


[00:48:52] And in the end, He is going to judge all of humanity. And that judgment is going to be harsh, it's going to be hard, it's not going to be pleasant. But even looking at the Old Testament. There's the story of Jonah. I don't know how familiar our listeners are with the Assyrian Empire or the story of Jonah, but the idea is that Jonah is a prophet and he's told to go to Nineveh, which is the capital of the Assyrian Empire. 


[00:49:17] The Assyrians are some of the worst people of the ancient world. They would go to various cities that they conquer and they would completely exterminate the populations. They would dash the heads of babies against walls. They would rape, pillage, and plunder. They would do all of the worst things that you could possibly imagine. 


[00:49:32] They kind of made it into a game to see how horrible they could be. Jonah was asked to go to these people, to warn them. And Jonah didn't want to go for a number of reasons, but one of the reasons he gives towards the end is very telling, where he says, I know that you are slow to anger, abundant in mercy, and you are going to give them a chance to repent. 


[00:49:54] And you have, and you've spared them. The worst people you can imagine. That's one of the starkest examples of God's mercy anywhere. The greatest is obviously sending Jesus Christ, which we will cover in the next episode. But in the Old Testament, there is no greater example of God showing his mercy to a people than the capital of one of the most egregious abusers of human rights in any time period. 


[00:50:26] Some of the worst people you can imagine doing some of the worst crimes you can imagine. And God looks lovingly on these people and says, I will send someone to save you. I will send someone to warn you, and if you don't turn, I'll punish you. But if you do, I will accept, and I will turn my wrath away from you. 


[00:50:44] So, I do think that we have a tendency as Christians, like you said, to focus on the Old Testament and New Testament as completely different. And there are differences to be sure, but God is the same between the two of them. And He longs to show mercy, but part of His character is mercy. His unchanging character is also justice and he has to act on both. 


[00:51:07] Gina: Thank you so much for taking the time to listen to our podcast today. If you liked what you heard, please feel free to subscribe and share and leave a positive review. And if you would like to connect with us on social media, you can do so on Instagram and Facebook at the Logic of God. You can also send us an email at Maine dot The Logic of god@gmail.com. 


[00:51:30] Thanks again for listening, we hope you have a great day.

Is God Good?

[00:00:00] Cody: Hi, thank you for tuning in to the Logic of God podcast. I'm Cody.

[00:00:16] Gina: I'm Gina.

[00:00:16] Ben: And I'm Ben. If you're returning, thank you for coming back and if you are a

new guest, welcome.

[00:00:37] Ben: Okay, so yeah, today we're going to be covering assumption number two, which

is the second assumption that we laid out in our first episode. This assumption being that both

God is good and perfect in his goodness. So yeah, last episode we talked about some of the

evidences for God existing. Now we're going to be talking about his character, who he really is.

[00:00:58] Gina: So, in our last episode, we talked a little bit about morality, but I want to unpack

what is good and what is evil a little bit more. So what do you think? What is good and what is

evil?

[00:01:10] Ben: So there are a couple of ways to approach this. One is the easiest way, which is

to just say, whatever God says is good is good, and whatever he says is evil is evil.

[00:01:19] But that's not super satisfying in a philosophical context. That's what I would say. Is

any action that brings about love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

gentleness, and self control, is good? And all actions that lead to unnecessary, long term

suffering, is good? Or, anything that stands in direct opposition to love, joy, peace, patience,

kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self control, is evil.

[00:01:48] So, there is the theory that has been put forward by the author J. R. R. Tolkien, is the

idea that evil cannot create, it can only corrupt what exists. So, when God first made creation, all

of creation was good. And God's character is, as I said, I won't keep repeating it, but love, joy,

peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self control.

[00:02:09] All of those things are a part of God and who He is.

[00:02:12] Gina: Also known as the fruits of the Spirit.

[00:02:13] Ben: Correct. And, Lord willing, we will be covering that in more detail in another

episode. The idea is, is that there are opposites to each of these virtues. So for love, there is

hatred. For joy, there is agony. For peace, there is strife.

[00:02:27] For patience, there is impatience. For all of these things, there is a corrupted variant

of something that is good. So evil in and of itself is not something. It is the absence or the

corruption of a good thing. So we all feel to an extent love or joy or peace, etc. But, there are

things that happen in our lives which we can consider to be bad, and either we can allow those

things to drag us down and cause us to feel despair, or they can lead us not just to have more of

peace or more of love for the people in our lives, but to, to experience a greater understanding

and a greater depth of those virtues.

[00:03:06] A greater degree of love and understanding what it is to love someone. A greater

understanding of peace and more of it in our lives. So, in that sense, a bad thing can be used for

greater good. And so, that does cause some complication for what good and evil are, because if

something bad happens but can be used to increase something else that is good, can you really

say it's evil?

[00:03:29] I would say, yes, it's just being used for something that is ultimately good. That being

said, ultimately, that's how I would describe good and evil. Those sets of virtues that God

describes as, uh, the fruits of his spirit, and then evil is either the inverse of those or actions that

lead to long term meaningless suffering.

[00:03:48] Gina: But Ben, isn't that, like, subjective based on a person's experience and

conviction? Saying eating meat is evil, for example.

[00:04:00] Ben: Well, so there are a lot of things that, you're right, that do come into the

subjective area. There are people who say that, I just won't eat meat because it comes from

animals. There's a lot of that.

[00:04:12] It's built off of a foundation of saying that because an animal is alive and has

emotions, that it has the same value as a human. No, it doesn't. If you believe that God exists

and you believe that God created us with the faculties both of reason and morality which

animals don't have, and we kind of covered that in the last episode, animals don't have a moral

law.

[00:04:35] They don't have things that they know they ought to do and know ought not to do.

Unless they specifically interact with humans, in which case, to a degree, They do. We all, we've

all seen a dog's guilty face. They know when they, they do things

[00:04:46] Gina: they shouldn't do.

[00:04:47] Ben: But in the end, this, uh, this idea that we are exactly the same as all of the

animals is, is kind of silly.

[00:04:54] But I think, Gina, your, your question kind of goes to a broader thing, which is, isn't all

the ideas of good, like, love and joy and peace, these are all things that manifest in a kind of

personal way. Well,

[00:05:05] Gina: there's like homosexual love, you know, there's Somebody deriving joy from

hurting animals. Like, there are so many different examples of those things being used for bad

things or things that God condemns, and yet, we are still being told that they are good.

[00:05:22] Ben: And I think that in those instances, the best way to tell if they are good or evil is

to check adherence to purpose. So, sex is something that is very pleasurable, I think. I think the

jury's not exactly still out on that point. I think we don't have any discussions left on that. I think

we all know. And yes, it is meant to be pleasurable.

[00:05:44] And it's meant to have a number of other functions aside from pleasure. What a lot of

people have done now is removed those extra functions. They've removed the aspect where it is

meant to be a truly intimate act. They've removed the idea that it's supposed to be an act, that's

main purpose is the creation of children.

[00:06:02] They've separated the biological function of sex, as well as the spiritual aspect of sex,

and the role of a man and wife coming together, the two shall become one flesh. All of that has

been cut off, and all that's been left is the pleasure. And that is ultimately a corruption of its

original purpose. So when we look at all of these individual different things, I don't think that it's

wrong for a person to choose not to eat meat.

[00:06:28] Gina: No, I mean, there are Christians who have convictions about swearing or

drinking and, you know, they believe that those behaviors are evil and satanic and a foothold for

the enemy. And I think the reason that I even brought up the fact that good and evil can be

subjective is just because even in the church, we're seeing differences of opinion on what is

good and what is evil and It would be nice to just, I think, lay out a foundation for, you know, as a

human being what the testing portion of good and evil looks like.

[00:07:02] I think you've already laid it out pretty well with the Fruits of the Spirit, but I don't know

if you have any other thoughts.

[00:07:08] Ben: Cody hasn't jumped in for a bit. I'd like to hear what he has to say on this stuff.

[00:07:11] Gina: No,

[00:07:12] Cody: and we could cover. the good and evil topic on its own episode for sure.

Absolutely. We got to differentiate between natural evil and moral evil.

[00:07:23] We'll be covering it, covering more moral evil on the topic of God's character being

good. But with that said, I mean, uh, I think you've explained it exquisitely. Thank you. Wow. Um,

I, I couldn't really add to that at all.

[00:07:43] Gina: So, I think we've established that we're pretty fallible as people, but what does

it mean for God to be perfect in His goodness?

[00:07:52] Ben: In both the Christian and Jewish traditions, it's the idea that God doesn't flip

flop. He doesn't change what He says is good and what He says is evil. He is the same

yesterday, today, and forever. If he says that truth is an important value, he doesn't the next day

say, but I kind of like that, this whole falsehood thing.

[00:08:11] I think I might give this a try. I think it's kind of fun. It's kind of saucy. I'm going to mix

things up. He doesn't do that. Now, there are people who claim that he does because there are

instances in the Bible where he commands, say, you are not allowed to punish a child for his

father's sin. But then he will order that an entire family be killed because of something that one

person in the family did.

[00:08:34] The difference there is that when God is commanding us to do certain things, He's

taking into account that we are finite creatures, that we can't see the greater picture. We can't

see the sins that would have been created by the child if we're the parent. We can't see the

greater impacts of the sins that we've made.

[00:08:50] And we can't see the exact impact of what our decisions are having, and will

eventually have on our current family, or what our punishments will do to society in general. So,

when God says, you can't do that, He is saying this because we don't know what the cause of

our punishments will be. You can't punish a kid for what his father does because you don't know

what that will do.

[00:09:15] All you can say is that you know the father did something wrong, and there are laws

that He has passed down to us that tell you that it's wrong, as well as punishments for how to try

to rectify this imbalance that's been caused. When God looks at something that has been done

wrong, he sees, overall, the great damage that that does, or the insignificant damage that does.

[00:09:35] And that's why there are times, like with Cain, there's the story of Cain and Abel

where Cain commits the first murder against his brother. And ultimately, there's not all that much

that God seems to do about it. In fact, God seems to be very generous towards Cain. Sure, he

kicks him out of his current home, and he sends him off to live in the land of Nod.

[00:09:52] But Cain laments and says, I'm gonna be killed by somebody. And God says, I will

mark you so that you aren't going to be harmed. And he ends up building a city, and he lives the

rest of his life out there. Okay, well, he committed the first murder against his brother who didn't

deserve it. I don't feel like that's a very good punishment.

[00:10:07] But the reality is, when you follow the story, Cain does seem to turn his life around.

Like, he starts a city of his own, he does continue to have a family out there, he does make a

change, and we're not told the exact extent of that change, but God knew what that change

would be.

[00:10:24] Gina: It's an interesting take, because I was just reading this story, and I kind of felt

like it was a worse punishment to make him stay alive than it was to let him get killed.

[00:10:35] Ben: To an extent. I think it does depend on how you view the punishment of life

versus the punishment of death. But when you look at his life, you do see that God doesn't

create a situation where he's going to remain in agony and constantly punished forever. He does

provide an avenue through which he can find some measure of fulfillment, and he does,

because he creates one of the first cities in the land of Nod.

[00:10:55] So, the point is, is that when God dishes out a punishment, whether that punishment

is on one person, or on multiple generations of the same family, Or, God shifts the punishment.

A good example of this is, uh, the punishment that God says he's going to meet out on Ahab.

There's a story in the Bible where, uh, Elisha calls out Ahab because Ahab really wanted one

guy's vineyard and he ended up framing him for a crime and then having the people stone him

at the testimony of two people who were lying.

[00:11:25] And Elisha says that he's going to die in a specific, that Ahab is going to die. Sorry, in

a specific way. And Ahab repents, and God says, through Elisha, that because he repented with

sackcloth and ashes, the punishment he was going to give to Ahab would not come during

Ahab's life, but rather, during the reign of his son.

[00:11:43] That doesn't seem like a very fair thing to do, but, when you see the reign of Ahab's

son, He was even worse than Ahab. God knew that this guy was going to come along after

Ahab. And whether you say it's because of the way Ahab lived his life, or his son's own choices,

or whatever, his son was worse than his father.

[00:12:02] And he deserved the punishment he got. God sees the big picture, we don't, and

that's why he gives us specific rules for punishment of crime that he doesn't always seem to

follow. Because at the heart of it, the point is, is that we don't see, and he does.

[00:12:18] Cody: I think that's good, and I think even today, there's been a lot of study done

where you kind of, Do you see the bigger picture of what certain decisions in, you know, the

hierarchy of family make on the offspring after?

[00:12:35] So, uh, makes logical sense.

[00:12:37] Ben: You're absolutely right. There are a lot of studies that indicate that for fatherless

households, the odds of, of the child brought through a single, a single mother's house. Is much

more likely to have a series of very serious issues. Is much more likely to become a criminal. Is

much more likely to be learning impaired.

[00:12:55] Is much more likely to be sociopathic. There's a long list of things that come from the

result of two people deciding they want to sleep together. But at least, at the very least the father

decides he doesn't want any responsibility after that and leaves. And that does have an impact

on, it doesn't mean that the kid's life is decided by that.

[00:13:13] Cody: No.

[00:13:13] Ben: But there is a pattern we can't really deny here.

[00:13:16] Cody: Oh, and that's where your Sam Harris is, you know, atheist determinist come

out.

[00:13:23] Ben: It's always weird when you have atheists who are also Calvinists.

[00:13:28] Cody: Yeah, there's, I mean, and that's a good way. I love how you put that because

it's a great way of explaining because that's something I struggled with for a while is, you know,

we're told on one hand that the, the, the Sons will not suffer for their father's decisions, but then

you see the story of Noah, you know, Ham makes a bad decision and Canaan is the one who

has to suffer because of it.

[00:13:53] So good explanation. Well, thank you.

[00:13:57] Gina: So, okay, my life verse is actually Philippians 4. 8. I'm going to read it to you

and then I want to pose a question. So finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is

noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything

is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things.

[00:14:20] So, my question is, how do we define all of these good things in God's standards to

understand his character?

[00:14:31] Ben: I see. So how do we look at whatever is pure or noble and

[00:14:35] Gina: How do you know what that is?

[00:14:37] Ben: How do we know? Um, it's, I, I would say it's very similar to what we know is

good. A lot of those things are very similar to just saying, whatever is good in this world, think

about those things.

[00:14:49] And I would say that the, the same things that would be defined as good earlier, love,

joy, peace, patience, those things, the, the actions that you would take that would provide that in

greater abundance and in greater understanding, I would say, is what you should be focused

and thinking on.

[00:15:08] Gina: I'm in agreement.

[00:15:09] I was just wondering if you guys had a different take, especially because it, it is hard

to take captive your mind to focus on such things. And I think there's a reason why God wants

us to focus on those things.

[00:15:24] Ben: Well, I think there's a reason that Paul didn't just say, whatever is good, think

about these things.

[00:15:30] When you think of nobility, when you think of purity, when you think of whatever is

true, These are all different aspects of goodness, generally. It's like, we can say think of colors,

but then there's an individual color. There's red, there's yellow, there's blue, there's green. When

you think about the truth, okay, so there are true things.

[00:15:53] Not every single true thing is going to necessarily bring You joy in the short term, but

if you live your life according to the truth, whatever it happens to be, and you orient yourself

around it, though there may be some short term suffering, long term you will find peace, you will

find joy. And so I think when Paul is using these different words, he's alluding to the different

aspects of God specifically.

[00:16:15] And each of those individual things does require a shift in focus. These things all do

lead into one another in many ways, but the things that God will put us through to really explore

them are often very different, is what I mean.

[00:16:31] Gina: Yeah. What about you?

[00:16:34] Ben: Agreed.

[00:16:34] Gina: Hahaha. Well, then why does it matter if God is good or perfect?

[00:16:40] Ben: Well, there's a verse in Romans, it's Romans chapter 3, verses 5 and 6. And it

talks about, it's a little bit straying from this, but not by much, where Paul is posing a

hypothetical, where someone might say that, you know, God is using bad things. But

[00:16:59] Cody: if our unrighteousness serves to show the righteousness of God, what shall

we say?

[00:17:05] That God is unrighteous to inflict wrath on us? I speak in the human way, by no

means, for then how could God judge the world?

[00:17:15] Ben: So yeah, there's an accusation that God is not being righteous because of his

judgments. And if he was unrighteous, he would have no right to judge the world, which is

essentially what Paul is saying.

[00:17:27] Yeah, it's very important that God be perfect, both perfect and good, because he is

the one who passes judgment. He is the one who judges our actions, who says if they are good

or evil. If he is not consistent in that, if he's not the ultimate arbiter of what is good or evil, if he's

not the ultimate arbiter of what is perfect, he couldn't possibly look at us each individually and

say if we're doing good or evil.

[00:17:53] In fact, good or evil wouldn't even exist at that point.

[00:17:56] Gina: Well, many, many people, and this ties into what we shared in our last episode,

but a lot of people believe that there is no judgment. So if there is no judgment, then you don't

really need a scale of good and evil.

[00:18:07] Ben: Well, the problem with a lot of that is that no matter who you are, you do believe

in judgment.

[00:18:13] Because whenever someone, whenever someone does something, even in the most

tolerant of all Unitarian churches, if you look at When someone has something horrible done to

them, suddenly all of these ideas about good and evil not really existing, about punishment not

really existing, go out the window.

[00:18:31] Gina: Yeah.

[00:18:32] Ben: Ultimately, when you have mass murderers, when you have rapists, when you

have swindlers and liars and sociopaths who are willing to sacrifice other people's lives for their

own gain. Even setting aside the universalist stuff, the average person, if you really ask them

about it, will admit, yeah, absolutely, there are people who exist out there who do bad things.

[00:18:50] In fact, if you ask most people, they say that they don't like most people. How often

have you ever heard, oh yeah, I hate people? People are terrible. People are disgusting. People

are awful. I have a volunteer,

[00:18:58] Gina: she's 17, and she says it all the time. She loves people, but she says she hates

people. Mm

[00:19:02] Ben: hmm. And it's a sentiment that we can all feel, because when we look at the

world around us, we feel like it's constantly falling apart, and that people are constantly ignoring

things that are obvious and true.

[00:19:13] Not us, obviously. I mean, obviously, we're the good people who are not. You know,

with our heads in the sand, ignoring all of the, the real things that are happening. We know

what's going on. We have our heads screwed on right. Obviously, we're the good people. And

that's kind of always the way that it is. It's that the rest of the world has fallen apart.

[00:19:31] We're fine. We're okay. I mean, God would look at us and say, You're, you're okay. I

mean, why wouldn't he? But everyone else kind of sucks. So.

[00:19:41] Cody: Yeah. No, it makes sense.

[00:19:43] Gina: I'm made in the image of God, and He's perfect, therefore I'm perfect.

[00:19:48] Cody: I think, therefore I am.

[00:19:50] Gina: Perfect.

[00:19:51] Cody: For me, this one is a very, um, in depth question, so I'll try to answer it shortly.

[00:19:59] Or

[00:20:00] Ben: longly, it's okay.

[00:20:02] Cody: Why does it matter if God is good? So, why it matters is One, if God is not

good and perfect, then why serve him? But two, if God is not good, then there is no absolute

moral goodness. And that would mean that moral relativity. is true. But when you take moral

relativity to its fullest extent, you wind up with Hitler doing what he did being okay.

[00:20:32] Because, you know, he was doing what was best for him and what benefited him the

most. And when you're living in a reality where that is all that matters, then that's good to that

one person. And that, that can't be true. So, without God being good, there is no absolute

goodness, so I, I think that, that would be how I'd answer it in a short way.

[00:20:58] Yeah, and I think that's a good answer. But, on the opposite side of that, why does

evil exist if God is so good? Well, it kind of goes

[00:21:06] Ben: back to what Tolkien said. Evil itself is not something. It is the corruption of

goodness. Or, if you want, it's the absence of goodness. So, darkness in and of itself, since

there are a lot of parallels between good and evil and light and dark, darkness in and of itself is

not something.

[00:21:24] It is the absence of light. Cold in and of itself is not something, it is the absence of

heat. Evil in and of itself is not something, it is the absence of good. Thus, as a concept, it has to

exist, because good is something, and to remove good from something is to create evil. Now, if

you're going to create something that has free will, something with the capacity to choose, then

by necessity, evil does have to exist as a concept.

[00:21:52] Because if it is able to choose, it has to be able to reject that which exists, that which

is.

[00:21:59] Gina: So, did God create evil?

[00:22:02] Ben: No. He created something with the capacity to choose. Which is a pretty

significant difference.

[00:22:07] Gina: Yeah.

[00:22:07] Ben: It's a bit like saying that when you get a dark room by shutting a door, that the

light made it dark.

[00:22:13] No. You made it dark by shutting the door.

[00:22:17] Cody: I like that analogy.

[00:22:19] Ben: Thank you.

[00:22:20] Cody: So is it possible to be good without God?

[00:22:22] Ben: No. Why? Well, that's a bit like saying is it possible to light up a room without

light?

[00:22:28] Cody: But we're created in his image, don't we have light?

[00:22:32] Ben: So we kind of discussed this in the previous episode.

[00:22:34] What I believe that means is that we have three parts to our being. Which is mind,

body, and will. Those things, as God created them, were good. But all three of those things can

be corrupted to be evil. It's just like the, uh, the creation of Lucifer, Satan, the devil. The name

Lucifer means bringer of light.

[00:22:55] He was not made to be evil. He was not made to be a dark force in the world. He was

made to be good, but he made a choice, because he also, like us, was given free will. And he

made the choice to rebel against God, to turn his back on him, and to try to be his own son, his

own center of the universe, his own light, and to put his desires above the will of God.

[00:23:17] And ultimately, that led to his fall, and that led to him being the Prince of Darkness

that we refer to today. So, no, it isn't possible for us to be good without God, because although

we are made in His image, we are capable of corrupting that image. And once that image is

corrupted, the only person who can save it is God.

[00:23:37] Cody: But what about people who are not Christian, but donate to a good cause, so

to speak, or, you know, go out and serve the community. Is that not good?

[00:23:48] Ben: Well, I've been tackling these questions for a bit. Gina, do you have any

thoughts on this? And actually, Cody, you should probably answer a couple of these yourself to

[00:23:55] Gina: answer your own questions.

[00:23:56] Seriously,

[00:23:57] Ben: be like every good intellectual and answer your own questions. You sure you

already know, you already know the answers.

[00:24:04] Cody: I have the perfect answer to my own question. I hope you do. I bet you do. No,

go for it. What do you think?

[00:24:11] Gina: I'm rereading the question.

[00:24:14] Cody: I don't think that one was on there.

[00:24:16] Gina: Okay.

[00:24:16] Well ask it again.

[00:24:17] Cody: I don't remember what I asked.

[00:24:23] Ben: So the idea that Cody presented was if There is a person who doesn't know

God, but just kind of, you know, gives to charity, does good, would be someone that everyone

around him would say is definitely a good person. Isn't that enough?

[00:24:38] Gina: No.

[00:24:39] Ben: Why?

[00:24:40] Gina: Because if you want to have the relational aspect of salvation, you have to

acknowledge God's goodness and what he did for you through Christ.

[00:24:53] And it's nothing less than that acknowledgement will do. I

[00:24:58] Cody: like it. Yeah.

[00:25:01] Gina: Here's a question, but it kind of jumps ahead so maybe I should say it. Yeah,

[00:25:06] Ben: I think Cody still hasn't answered his own question that he forgot.

[00:25:09] Cody: So, how I'd answer this, can you, can somebody do good without God? Or

rather, can someone be good without God?

[00:25:17] Can someone be good without God? It depends, again, on how you define that and if

you have no absolute answer. Truth, then, you know, you get into the, uh, relativity realm, but

what would be the purpose of somebody doing good without God? It serves no purpose. It

would be in vain. You know, we're but a mist here today, gone tomorrow.

[00:25:42] Like, what purpose would it serve if there's no absolute goodness? If you're not doing

it for the absolute goodness, then you're really not doing anything good at all. You're just doing it

in vain.

[00:25:56] Gina: Calling yourself good doesn't make yourself good, and I know lots of people

who are self proclaimed atheists that say, Well, I'm a good person, and it's pretty messed up that

God doesn't want to take me as I am and save me.

[00:26:08] And they completely miss the point.

[00:26:11] Cody: But with the option of free will, and this is where I kind of probably contradict

myself on the surface of this question, because if there is always the choice to do good or bad,

even absent of God, then yes, you can do good, but it doesn't really serve a purpose.

[00:26:32] Ben: Well, the idea is, can you be made right in God's eyes by doing good separate

from Him?

[00:26:41] That's completely different.

[00:26:42] Gina: Well, we, we know we don't accomplish that because the Bible tells us that we

don't accomplish that through works.

[00:26:49] Cody: We all have blemishes. We can't be made perfect without God in that sense.

Can you still do good things without God, though, is what I was asking. I don't know.

[00:27:00] Maybe it's a weird question.

[00:27:04] Ben: What? Another thing to keep in mind, which is very important, is what was the

first sin? It was a pretty banal thing. It was eating fruit from a tree that we were asked not to.

[00:27:15] Gina: I would argue that it was, I mean, I know that this will be controversial, but I

mean, I think believing that God's a liar would be the sin that preceded eating the fruit.

[00:27:27] Ben: That potentially. It isn't necessarily that they'd have to believe that. They, they

may put, take it into consideration, but not be like, well, I don't know. Not knowing is not

necessarily a sin. But I, I, I, I, I, it's a

[00:27:41] Gina: direct instruction,

[00:27:42] Ben: correct? So the first you, you could say that the first actual action that was

taken, but regardless, it doesn't really change that much.

[00:27:50] The idea is, is that, and you could be right. So let's even go with that, that the first, the

first sin that ultimately led to the cascading Massive sins after the fact. Was them believing God

was a liar. We can go with that. Or you can go with the person being, eating fruit from a tree. No

matter what, the first sin is a pretty banal thing.

[00:28:12] It wasn't a horrendous act of torture. It wasn't a killing. It wasn't something that we

would consider in modern society to be absolutely horrendous. And more importantly, for the

cultures that came before us that weren't as sheltered as we are, that were more regularly

exposed to evil and death and suffering, the idea of believing God to be a liar, Entertaining the

idea, even.

[00:28:36] Or disobeying and eating the fruit. That's not that big of a deal. The point is that sin is

such a horrendously corrupting force. It doesn't matter how little of it you allow into your life. It is

a horrendous, terrifying, corrupting thing. And it took a single act and it transformed an entire

pure and perfect world into a cursed one.

[00:29:01] God cannot allow even a tiny bit of that in heaven. He cannot allow a tiny bit of it in

his presence because it can't be, because darkness can't exist in light. As long as you allow

that, any amount of it, in your life, you will be destroyed in the presence of God. You cannot

stand in the presence of God.

[00:29:23] There are so many stories that come from the Old Testament of people, imperfect

people, Coming into the presence of God and they weep and they fall to their knees and they

tremble because they know that there is a part of them inside of themselves that is not natural

and is still there and is in the presence of something that is true and pure and glorious.

[00:29:42] So when you say that you're mostly good, but you got a couple areas that you need

to work on, but ultimately God should still let you in and you don't have to follow his other rules

because you're mostly good. That is entirely missing the point, which is that a single sin, a banal

sin, led to the world becoming what it is.

[00:30:02] And God is not going to allow that in His presence, because He can't. because you

won't be there if he does.

[00:30:10] Cody: Agreed. So you can't do, and this sounds more like, you know, you can't do

works to get to heaven, but outside of the getting to heaven, do you think that non Christians do

good things? Yeah, absolutely.

[00:30:25] Okay. I know

[00:30:26] Ben: that is, that is kind of a separate question entirely because as listed, what are

good things? Things that bring love, joy, peace, bad things can result. In good things, even

actions that are taken that are objectively bad, like the death of a loved one, that is objectively

bad, can lead to people growing closer together, can lead to loved ones who've never spoken to

one another, or haven't spoken for years, and who have damaged relationships come back

together and repair what has been broken.

[00:30:55] So, yeah, I would say that the same way that bad things can be used for good, that

yeah, anyone can do good things. But like you said, it's pointless. What is it? Yes. It's something

that is being used by God for something, with or without your expressed consent or desire.

[00:31:14] Gina: I think also like, okay, I'm good. Like I'm good, but it's not the same as

sanctification.

[00:31:20] Ben: No.

[00:31:21] Gina: And when you don't have sanctification and refinement in your life, like in good

is good enough, you're never going to become Your potential which like the potential that God

has for you is so much better and more and is Perfected by comparison.

[00:31:39] Cody: Did we answer why would God create things that are capable of evil?

[00:31:44] Ben: I don't think that we specifically indicated that but I we kind of covered it in that

that is a part of free Will but I don't think we actually explained why God would bother making

something that has free will to begin with

[00:31:56] Gina: That's such a hard question.

[00:31:58] Ben: Yeah.

[00:31:58] Gina: Like the question that we've been kind of talking about is like, why do people

want to have children?

[00:32:06] And why did God want to create us? That's, that's a really hard question.

[00:32:11] Ben: Well, and going off of that, you guys have a few kids. If you had the power to

snap your fingers and make it so that they could never disobey you and never disrespect you

and always listen to you. And always love you, no matter what.

[00:32:25] Would you snap your fingers and make that happen?

[00:32:27] Gina: No.

[00:32:27] Cody: No,

[00:32:28] Ben: it'd be pointless.

[00:32:29] Gina: Well, our, our children are very colorful individuals, and that would completely

drain the life, like the color out of the relationships. And part of the fun for me is butting heads

because I learn a lot. Like if, if they were obedient, little, like, I don't know, brainless people, it

wouldn't, there would be no, no back and forth.

[00:32:52] It would, they would have to love me and it wouldn't feel worth it.

[00:32:56] Cody: It wouldn't be love.

[00:32:58] Gina: No,

[00:32:59] Cody: that's, that's not love. That's not relationship. That's not, Anything worth

having, like having a robot, like that's becoming prevalent in our culture right now is, you know,

AI robots is it beneficial for accomplishing stuff?

[00:33:17] Sure, but from a relationship standpoint, it's lifeless.

[00:33:23] Gina: Well, we like Cody and I went through. Um, like a three year season where we

couldn't have Children, like we lost babies, three of them. And then, like, we were diagnosed

infertile and it was not easy. You know, it wasn't possible for me to just be like, okay, I'm I don't

need any more.

[00:33:46] Like there is an overwhelming desire in me, even now having three children to like,

go do it all over again. And I can't explain why other than just knowing what I have and believing

that. In a little, simple, feeble way, like, we're mimicking God's own creation and love for us

through parenting.

[00:34:11] Cody: I would also argue that, you know, if God's law is written on our hearts, that's

one of the first commands in the Bible is to be fruitful and multiply.

[00:34:21] Gina: I believe that. That fruitfulness does not equal having children.

[00:34:27] Cody: No, I think the multiply part would be having

[00:34:29] Gina: people combine the two. And I, I like making that point.

[00:34:32] Cody: I like that.

[00:34:33] Ben: Yes. The end is a very important separator.

[00:34:36] Gina: Yeah.

[00:34:37] Cody: No, I just assume that's how most people took it.

[00:34:39] Ben: Yeah. I'll be honest. That is the way that I took it, but.

[00:34:43] I'm glad that you have a different interpretation there. That does actually make things

very interesting.

[00:34:48] Gina: Fruitfulness does not always equal having children,

[00:34:51] Ben: indeed,

[00:34:52] Gina: especially for people that like where we have a lot of friends that are going

through infertility and don't know when or if they will have children.

[00:34:59] And if being fruitful and multiplying is the same exact thing as having babies, then

they would never be able to fulfill that. And God would not ask people to do things that are not

possible. This is the logic of God.

[00:35:13] Ben: This is the logic of God. Thank you very much for tuning in.

[00:35:17] Gina: So, I'm just going to go for it because we were talking about having children

and there's a lot of, there's a lot of people that I know that ask this question and it just sort of

leads into our last question, which is why would God, why would a good God send people to

hell?

[00:35:35] And we talked a little bit about it in our last episode. About, you know, people who

have never even had the opportunity to know God and, you know, what happens to them. And

so I want to unpack both of these questions because I think God's goodness deserves an

opportunity to speak for the people who never had an opportunity to know Him, like our babies

that passed away.

[00:35:58] Cody: I think if you tackle this topic or this question, you're taking a lot of authority on

yourself or a lot of speculation or both. At the end of the day, I don't think we know how God

judges people, like what his specific requirements for each specific person living completely

different lives is like. Is it going to be, you know, one over all, or is he going to give everybody an

opportunity to hear the gospel?

[00:36:31] You know, an argument can be made, you know, God's not coming back or Jesus is

not coming back until everybody's heard the gospel, but if people have died without hearing the

gospel, is Jesus never coming back? So at some point, somewhere, I think everybody gets the

opportunity. to choose God or reject God, but that is personal speculation.

[00:36:53] I can't really back that up with solid scripture, but why he would send people to hell is

just the, the, the rejection, the, the, the sin causing blemish that Cannot be in his presence So

one of the things we

[00:37:10] Ben: should probably address is what exactly hell is because There are a lot of

people who have this Kind of image in their head of a bunch of guys in red underpants dancing

around with pitchforks and poking people And all kinds of inventive tortures, and they bring up

Dante's Inferno on the different layers of hell.

[00:37:29] There are a few different specific mentions of hell throughout the Bible. Mostly in the

New Testament. There's mentions in Luke, in Revelation, in Matthew. Typically what it is referred

to as a dark, fiery pit, where people are bound and thrown, where there is weeping and

gnashing of teeth, where there is separation from God.

[00:37:49] Whether or not the fiery pit aspect is a kind of colorful description, a way for us to kind

of conjure an idea of dark suffering, or it is literally a dark pit in which our souls are going to be

thrown, is a matter that's up for debate. But ultimately, What it is, regardless of its physical

manifestation or spiritual manifestation, is separation from God.

[00:38:12] Gina: Eternal.

[00:38:13] Ben: Eternal, complete, all encompassing separation from love, joy, peace, patience,

everything that is God's character. If you choose to reject God, all of those good things are

gone.

[00:38:28] Cody: Man, that sounds like hell.

[00:38:30] Ben: I know, right? And so, regardless of how that actually looks, wherever hell is,

that's functionally what it is.

[00:38:38] It's a quarantine zone for all people who have rejected God.

[00:38:42] Gina: Can I ask you a question?

[00:38:43] Ben: Please do.

[00:38:44] Gina: Do you believe that hell goes on forever, or do you believe that hell has an

end?

[00:38:50] Ben: Uh, from everything that we've been told, it seems that hell goes on forever. And

that certainly makes sense to me to an extent.

[00:38:58] I'd be lying if I said that I didn't wonder If there was some way for people to get out, if

there was some way for God to extend his sacrifice to the people who are there now, I don't

know. There's nothing in the Bible that says that it does. And as much as I hope that there, there

is hope. For those people there, I can't find anything in the Bible to support the idea that there is

an escape.

[00:39:22] And that certainly makes sense, because there is, this is a bit off topic, but there is

one unforgivable sin that is mentioned in the Bible. And it's blaspheming the Holy Spirit, or it's

widely assumed that that is what the one unforgivable sin in the Bible is. And it seems strange

that that's the one unforgivable thing, the one thing that God would not forgive you for doing.

[00:39:44] Why that? Well, the idea is, is that God sends His Holy Spirit to the people who call

on Him, who know Him, who truly love Him, and are pursuing Him. When you know God in His

fullness, when you know God as good as any person possibly can, and you truly love Him, that's

the point where you know, and reject, you know exactly what you're rejecting.

[00:40:07] There's no turning back from that. There's no argument to convince you. If you've

lived in God's light, and suddenly you decide it's not good enough for you, you know what you're

rejecting. Most of us have the benefit of a level of ignorance. But at that point, God's revealed

himself to you completely, and you've rejected him.

[00:40:24] Once we're dead, and once we've gone to our final judgment, The like, like Cody

said, there's a lot that we don't know. Mm-Hmm. . And I think we're not told for a very, very good

reason. If we knew that the gospel was gonna be taught to people after they died, why would we

even bother teaching the gospel? We wouldn't.

[00:40:42] There would no be no incentive. And maybe that is what happens, and maybe not, we

don't know. But the point is, is that God is ultimately just. He is the true arbiter of justice, and as

we've discussed, he is complete in his perfection of goodness. If he is truly good and he is truly

just, then no matter what it is he does, we can't look at the decisions and make any reasonable

argument to why he could have done something else.

[00:41:09] So maybe there is no hope for the people in hell, and it seems that that's the case,

because once you're in hell, you have made your decision. You've rejected God, and as a result,

what could you be told to get you out?

[00:41:21] Cody: I like that explanation, because it kind of, a question, not that I've had myself,

but I've heard asked before is, Do the angels have a chance at salvation?

[00:41:33] And, you know, they would have blasphemed the Holy Spirit or God at that point, and

it's unforgivable. Like, they, they were in the presence of God. They're in a completely different

position than we are, and they rejected that. So, I like that.

[00:41:50] Gina: It's so interesting that the angels have been in the presence of God and in his

counsel and still struggle with his sovereignty.

[00:41:59] Mm hmm. Like, we have a, a lot to take on in becoming a Christian because there are

a lot of questions that there are no good answers for, and that's where faith is required. And I

know that's a cookie cutter response that Cody hates, because people will be like, you just gotta

believe. And that's not a fair answer either, but.

[00:42:22] You know, faith is really important in believing in God's goodness, outside of all of the

evidence that exists.

[00:42:30] Ben: Yeah, I agree. One of the most interesting books in the Bible, one of my most

favorite, is the book of Job. And the reason is because not only is it a story about a guy, Who

has an absolutely horrible time.

[00:42:44] The worst suffering that any person could possibly have. Where all of his family

except his wife is wiped out. And all of his property is completely destroyed. And all of his

livestock is taken away. And his health is taken away from him. And his friends turn on him. And

his wife turns on him. And he's sitting alone, a miserable mess.

[00:43:01] Scraping at boils with pieces of broken pottery. And his friends come up to him and

tell him that he obviously deserved it. And he tells them that he didn't deserve it. And he keeps

trying to find a way to reconcile God's goodness, his justice, his perfection with his current

situation, and he can't. And he says, I would argue my case before God, even though I know it's

pointless, because I know I don't deserve it.

[00:43:26] And every single friend attacks him in a different way, saying, clearly you deserved it

because you're here. And God finally shows up, and what does God say? It's not about

deserving. I am God. And that's it. He restores Job's fortunes. He gives him back everything that

he had. He rebukes the friends that were around him telling him that he deserved it.

[00:43:47] Because he clearly didn't. And he tells Job to pray for his friends. But it's like, in every

other story, you would have God come forward and say, This is why I did it. This is the reason

for it. Or he would say, Job, you clearly did deserve it. And there are a lot of people who teach

that Job somehow deserved it.

[00:44:06] Completely missing the end of the story. The point is, you aren't owed an explanation

for every single thing that happens to you. And sooner or later, you're gonna come to a point

where there's a question that you have that you won't get an answer to. Or something will

happen in your life that is absolutely horrible, and you'll be suffering and not knowing why.

[00:44:27] You're not owed an explanation. At that point, you have to understand God is God,

and he has his reasons for what he's doing, and whether he explains himself or not, that will

always be the truth. And you can have the faith to accept it, or you can reject it.

[00:44:42] Gina: But the special thing about those situations is where you choose to use it as

your testimony and help other people going through the same exact thing who have even less

answers than you.

[00:44:54] Ben: Absolutely.

[00:44:56] Gina: That's how you glorify God. That's how you prove his goodness in those bad

times without an explanation.

[00:45:02] Ben: Personally, I find a lot of those testimonies to be some of the most powerful.

And I think we all have an immense amount of respect for the people we see around us who

suffer, but still choose to love and who choose to put the needs of other people before them.

[00:45:15] Gina: The enemy wants you to shut up and sit down and pretend like everything's

fine, but you're allowed to talk about it, especially with people who need you.

[00:45:23] Ben: Absolutely.

[00:45:24] Gina: Awesome.

[00:45:26] Ben: What do you think, Cody? No, I agree.

[00:45:31] Cody: I like it.

[00:45:40] Gina: Thanks for listening to Logic of God podcast. If you liked what you heard,

please subscribe and share and leave a review. If you'd like to follow us on social media, you

can find us at the logic of God, and you can also send us an email at the logic of God at gmail.

com. Thanks and have a great day.

Does God Exist?

[00:00:00] Cody: Hi, thank you for tuning in to the Logic of God podcast. I'm Cody. 


[00:00:16] Gina: I'm Gina. 


[00:00:16] Ben: And I'm Ben. If you're returning, thank you for coming back and if you are a new guest, welcome. 


[00:00:35] Ben: The topic that we're going to be covering today, following on from last week's topic is the number one assumption that we listed in that, which was that God exists. So today we're going to be expounding on that a bit and we've written up a series of questions that should help. Explore what exactly this assumption is and what it means, why we have it. 


[00:00:56] Yeah, first question tied to that assumption is who exactly is God, which I think is kind of an important thing. If we say God exists, we should probably say what we mean when we say God exists. So, any thoughts, anyone? 


[00:01:10] Gina: I had pulled up your verse that you listed in Exodus, and it's Exodus 3, 6, and I'll go ahead and read it. 


[00:01:16] Ben (2): Please do. 


[00:01:17] Gina: Yes, it is when God is talking to Moses, and he says, I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. At this, Moses hid his face because he was afraid to look at God. God is, for me, he is the creator. And he is the most powerful force in existence. But I think we need to get into the technical side of God. 


[00:01:47] The logical side. 


[00:01:49] Ben: Yeah, it makes sense to me. 


[00:01:52] Gina: I work in intangibles. 


[00:01:55] Ben: And that's why we love you, that's why you're here. Yeah, when I say God exists, the God that I'm talking about specifically is the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob. He's the figurehead of the Abrahamic religions, so we're talking Judaism, we're talking Islam, and we're talking Christianity. 


[00:02:11] And as Christians, obviously, we are referring to God as depicted in Christianity, which is very similar to Judaism in large, large part. Some differences to Islam, which, Lord willing, when we cover Islam, if we ever get to that, we'll go into more depth. But essentially, we're talking about the version of God that is depicted in Genesis and Exodus in the Old Testament that was provided through the Jewish faith. 


[00:02:35] And that continues on through the Christian and Jewish faith today. Yeah, a lot of the times we're going to be referencing Scripture. I mean, obviously, this is the Logic of God podcast, and we're all Christians here. We're going to be referencing the Bible a lot. And we'll be going into why we reference the Bible as one of our other core assumptions later. 


[00:02:51] And like I said, this is why we're going into the assumptions, and the assumptions will lead into one another. The foundation of all of our arguments really is based around these core assumptions. So, going into God exists, question number one, because this is a big part of who Christians say God is, the Trinity. 


[00:03:09] What is the Trinity? 


[00:03:11] Gina: He's obviously Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. He is the representation. We're created in the image of the triune God. And so you see, Father is God, Son is Jesus, and then we have the Holy Spirit, who came after Jesus resurrected. And, Ben and I have very similar takes on the Trinity and the functions of it, and kind of how I explained it to our children, which takes it on a very simple, child like explanation, but we have our soul, we have our mind, and we have our body, and each representation of God is in those things in us, and that's the easiest way to help our children understand how God can be three in one, if that makes sense. 


[00:03:54] Ben: Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so when we talk about the Trinity, this is actually a really big sticking point for a lot of people when they're introduced to Christianity. And for our listeners who don't understand, it's like what Gina said, the Trinity is the idea that there are three parts to God, and this is taught in the Christian faith. 


[00:04:11] So there is God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, and all three of them are part of the same God. One singular God, three parts. And if you haven't been raised on this doctrine, it's actually, it's really confusing. And there are a lot of people who will say, well, an egg is made of three parts. 


[00:04:29] There's the shell and wide and deep inside is the yolk. And you see it's three parts to the same egg. And. That doesn't help. And then you talk about water, and it's like, well, there are three different stages of water. There's water vapor, and there's liquid water. There's the ice. It's a solid water. So there we go. 


[00:04:48] That's God. And these are all illustrations of how things can be different things. They're not explanations of how one person can be seemingly three different people. So, the best explanation that I've ever heard, and I wish I knew the name of the man who explained it like this, because I didn't come up with this, but to, to the Greeks, human beings were composed of three parts. 


[00:05:12] There is your mind, your body, and your will. And all three of those parts made your soul. Your essence, who you were. The term soul being used as spirit is a much more recent thing. Soul originally meant you as your entirety, what you are in essence. And so, if we are made in the image of God, and that image is what the Greeks supposed, which is mind, body, and will, God also is one soul, one person who is God, that is composed of three parts, which is God the Father, which is his mind, God the Son, which is his body, and God the Spirit, which is his will. 


[00:05:50] And I, I really do like that explanation because it does, when you think about it, your mind can think things, it can have knowledge, it can have information, and then your body can feel things, can feel aches and pains. It can be telling you that you're not well, or it can be telling you that you're hungry, or it can, you can feel a deep yearning in your bones for something that you don't understand. 


[00:06:11] Your will is separate from those two things. It can quiet your mind, it can force your mind to be silent. It can Exert its control over your body to force it beyond what you would normally allow. And sometimes there are particularly strong people who will force themselves to do things without even understanding why they'll do it. 


[00:06:29] And the teachings of the Bible and a lot of the teachings and Stoicism and stuff is about quieting your mind, is about finding your way to get a balance of all three aspects of your body to be one cohesive whole, fully balanced. And this is something that is actually referenced by Christ himself. I can't remember the exact chapter and verse, but there's the famous saying that he did, what benefit is it to you to gain the world but lose your soul, lose yourself? 


[00:06:56] And that's what he's referencing, the balance of those three parts, to gain the world but have to give up your peace of mind or the health of your body or the force of your will and to live in that kind of hell for the rest of your life. So yeah, that's typically the way that I describe the trinity again I wish I knew the name of the guy who who passed on that doctrine I'm sure somebody knows it but I 


[00:07:18] Gina: have a really good resource for that because it It aligns very much with what and it could be the same thing, but there's a video. 


[00:07:25] It's actually not about the trinity It's about fasting, but it's a sermon on youtube by todd mozingo from revive church and he does this like Physical reenactment of what, like, the interaction between the triune God and ourselves and how that kind of mirrors itself. And so that, that would be a really great video for anybody who's listening to watch. 


[00:07:48] You'll learn about fasting, but you'll also get to see, like, a very tangible representation of how God interacts within himself. 


[00:07:56] Ben: Yeah, that'd be an interesting resource to pass on. I'd like to see that. All right. 


[00:08:00] Cody: And that, that's one of the reasons I like that one so much is because when you use the water one is what I've heard most growing up and what I still hear most people use, but it opens the door for some of those other, I want to believe, I want to say it's called monalism or monalism. 


[00:08:18] But that the Trinity can't operate outside of itself, so you can only have one of those An operation at one time rather than the sole explanation where all of them can be an operation at once and be independent of each other but also one cohesive thing. 


[00:08:39] Ben: Alright, so hopefully that was helpful to you folks. 


[00:08:42] This is one of those things where you really could go on for hours. We could even potentially dedicate an entire, an entire episode just to this. And to be honest, for most of these subjects we could. But moving on from there, Take care. So what does it mean for God to be all powerful? 


[00:08:59] Gina: That's a trick question. 


[00:09:00] Ben: example of what we mean here is can God make a circular square or a rock so big he can't lift it? Or could he create another version of himself that is more powerful and still beat it? These are all different things that I've personally have heard. I'm sure everyone here has heard some variant of these questions. 


[00:09:15] And while sometimes they're asked mockingly, there are people who genuinely want to know, they ask these questions as, okay, so what does it mean for God to be all powerful? 


[00:09:25] Cody: Yeah, no, and this is definitely a question if you've talked to an atheist or a, a skeptical Christian, as I call them, you'll definitely run into this question. 


[00:09:35] And it's, for me, it's an illogical one. It's a circular reasoning type of question, so it's not rational. So you're trying to fit a rational God into an irrational question. Doesn't work and I do like your explanation of it Ben that you shared with us earlier But I kind of throw it out the window. You kind of humor the people asking it more so than I do but I Kind of nip that one in the bud whenever I hear it. 


[00:10:05] Gina: I think it's hard to Have that conversation with somebody who's genuinely curious Because, for me, it's like, okay, well, we're human, we're feeble minded compared to what God's power is. And so we put this, like, lid on power, and we believe that, like, to a certain extent, we have power, and crystals have power, and the moon has power, and then we've watched all of this TV and movies and things that have told us what has power. 


[00:10:35] And we're comparing God to what we've been told power is. And I think in order to even answer this question with any kind of knowledge, you would have to actually know what it means for God to have power, like what God's power is, because we're basing this question on what we believe power is, and it's not actually powerful. 


[00:10:55] Does that, does that make sense? 


[00:10:57] Ben: No, absolutely. All right. My, my personal go to for when I have discussions about the power of God, oftentimes there's someone who will ask, okay, so can God make someone so powerful that he can't, that it's more powerful than him? And then can he beat him? What I will answer for questions along those veins is both yes and no. 


[00:11:18] And typically the response is, okay, well it has to be one or the other, either he can or he can't. And then my response is, well, you're asking a question that fundamentally doesn't make sense. And thus, you are expecting God to adhere to the rational yes or no, while asking about an aspect of him that makes no absolute sense when you're referring to it. 


[00:11:38] So, both yes and no. Yes he can and no he can't. Yeah, if you're asking an irrational question, don't expect a rational answer, because if God truly is beyond the bounds of rationality itself, if his power is so great that he could do literally anything, then no, you don't need to have a yes or no answer, because even yes and no don't apply to him. 


[00:11:59] Now, that's not what we view God as. That's just one of the ways that I deal with the inherent bizarre questions that come. Because obviously you shouldn't expect a coherent answer to a bizarre question. But if you really want to know what it is that Christians believe, what the doctrine tends to teach, it's that God has a nature of his own. 


[00:12:21] His nature is beyond our own. It's not tied to the physical world. God can do whatever it is he wants in the physical world. He's not bound by the laws of physics, by the laws of nature, by the laws of men. He can do whatever it is that he wants. He can turn water into wine. He can raise up from the very earth itself and create men and animals and water and the sky above and the entire universe just with a word. 


[00:12:47] He can do all of that. That's all in the physical world. However, God himself does have a nature that binds him, either because he chooses to have this nature or because it's a part of him. But it's a nature beyond our own. Supernatural, if you will. You can say, well, he has a nature, that means he's not all powerful. 


[00:13:04] Okay, whatever. If that's really the direction you want to go, if you want to be pedantic about it. There are things that limit God. Obviously. Because he is good. That's the next assumption we're going to be referring to in the next episode. And this is why these core assumptions feed into one another so importantly, and that's why we refer to them as assumptions. 


[00:13:23] These are things that ultimately have evidence for them, and that we can argue. But you cannot make mathematical 100 percent proof repeatable every time that is going to satisfy everybody that this is the way it is. But because God is good, in order for him to be good, There have to, by its very nature, be things that he cannot or will not do. 


[00:13:46] And because of that, there are specific patterns that you will find in the physical world as well. Certain things that he cannot do in the physical world because he will not cross certain lines. He will not contradict himself. He will not act in terms of evil. He will not contradict his own personal nature. 


[00:14:06] And so, if you want, those are limitations. But they're not limitations in the sense of the physical world, because again, he can manipulate atoms, he can manipulate all of reality, he can manipulate time. He's not bound by those things. So that's typically what we were referring to when we say God is all powerful. 


[00:14:23] Gina: That's awesome. 


[00:14:24] Ben: Thank you. 


[00:14:25] Gina: Yeah, it kind of, it leads me into the question that, where I started as a child with God, and it's just like the origin of God or the beginning of God. Like what? What is God's creation story? And that is something that like from six years old, I remember going into my mom's room and being like, mom, if God created everything, who created God? 


[00:14:45] And she was like, I don't know. So I would love to hear Cody and Ben's take on how could God not have a beginning? 


[00:14:55] Cody: So for me, this one kind of falls along the lines of outside of our general grasp. It's like, It is like defining and comprehending truly infinite. We as humans understand and are capable of explaining what infinite is, but we're all finite. 


[00:15:18] We can't truly grasp what that is like. We can explain it, we can wrap our heads around it, but not truly. Like, numbers are infinite, but We'll never get there, we'll never see him. Yeah, 


[00:15:30] Ben: sure. 



[00:15:31] Cody: sure. 


[00:15:31] Ben: It is, it is a weird subject. And absolutely, no matter what, there are going to be limitations on what we can understand in terms of infinity. 


[00:15:39] You're absolutely right. I think we, we do have an easier way, an easier time understanding forwards infinity, or countable infinity, where like, okay, I can start at the number zero, and then count forever. Okay, well I had a start, so I can just keep going. What people have trouble with is, okay, I didn't have a start and I've always been counting. 


[00:16:00] Gina: I am. 


[00:16:02] Ben: Yes, ma'am. 


[00:16:02] Gina: He is. 


[00:16:03] Ben: Yes, he is. That is literally his name, but we'll probably get to that during the actual scriptures. 


[00:16:10] Gina: But that's like the description of his age, of his existence, like, he is. 


[00:16:16] Ben: So yeah, I think that's actually a very profound answer. The God that we worship gave to Moses is I Am. And when, when Christ speaks, and at other points where God himself passes word along to his prophets, he refers to events in the past with his name, I Am. 


[00:16:36] When Abraham was, I Am. Whatever will be, I currently am. His name itself is not, is an indication that he's not bound to time. All time is the present for him. He is beyond it. And that's another thing that we would have a tough time really grasping because we live life in terms of cause and effect one moment to the next. 


[00:16:57] We have a present, a past, and a future. God doesn't have a past and a future. He just has him. 


[00:17:03] Gina: He wasn't born and he will not die. 


[00:17:05] Ben: Correct. Now as far as that's possible, unfortunately there's no real way to give you how that's possible because Typically, when we explain how things are possible, we're referencing the cause and effect. 


[00:17:18] If you have someone who's beyond cause and effect, you can't say how something was caused. What we can do is look at the fact that, well, we exist. And let's say that you don't believe in God and you remove him entirely from the equation. Well, currently we're here. So what is it that you think caused us? 


[00:17:36] And if you're not super updated on the whole James Webb telescope stuff. And they're still going off of the Big Bang and the 13 billion years ago or so. Then, okay, so we all came from a singularity that expanded at a certain point. What was prior to the singularity? Well, nothing. Because the singularity was an explosion of time and of space and of matter. 


[00:18:01] There was no time before time. And thus there is nothing that could have kicked off This time. The start of time. You can't start time. Because if time doesn't exist, there's no thing that can start it. So, the problem with that, is that, well, there had to be something that allowed for the existence both of time and of space and of matter. 


[00:18:21] For us to explode into existence. And so there's been the presupposition, maybe there's the multiverse. There's some kind of thing that's constantly making universes over and over and over again. Pfft. Maybe, but the thing is, you haven't gone anywhere with that explanation. You're referring to something that's always existed, that has rules and laws, just like God, and that has always existed and has never had a start. 


[00:18:46] It may be that multiverse had a start, but then, okay, you haven't gone anywhere again. You're referring to a multiverse of a multiverse, and then a multiverse of a multiverse. I'm sorry, this is a bit of rambling, but the point is, no matter what, You can't escape the fact that at some point, you have to refer to something that had no beginning. 


[00:19:05] Either the universe itself is part of an endless cycle of creation and destruction of universes that has always existed and will continue to exist long after this universe ends, and has stretched on long before our universe even began, or we have a God who is the same. Always stretches on before, and will continue long after it's gone, if it ever ends. 


[00:19:27] So no matter what, we're kind of stuck with this issue. 


[00:19:32] Cody: Yeah. And I think you can get into some different details of why a God that stretches on forever, a creator that stretches on forever is more plausible than just a universe that constantly blows up and creates thing is plausible. But. At the end of the day, you have to have, like you said, some form of something that has existed forever. 


[00:20:00] Ben: And I'm glad you brought that up, Cody, because that kind of leads into our next question, which does have a series of things that we can refer to it. But the next question, is there any evidence for this version of God? So, you're kind of approaching it from the cosmological or the scientific argument. 


[00:20:17] Why don't you expound a little bit on that? 


[00:20:19] Cody: Basically, the, the cosmological arguments, whatever begins to exist has a cause of its beginning. The universe began to exist, therefore the universe has a cause of its beginning. Yeah. 


[00:20:36] Cosmological argument in shortest form. 


[00:20:39] Ben: And Dr. William Lane Craig has built a lot of his career around the cosmological arguments. If you guys want, you can check out his stuff because he covers this in depth in a lot of different ways and He brings a lot to the table as far as the science and the philosophy of it. 


[00:20:55] Essentially, yes, there's, the universe has a cause. At some point you have to go to an uncaused first cause. And that would be God, because he had no cause. He exists beyond the rules of causality of time. So, because of that, he caused the universe and that's how we ended up here. There's also the argument from design. 


[00:21:17] Where it's typically called intelligent design. And it's a bit more of a common scientific approach. It's some, something that Dr. David Berlinski talks a lot about. He would consider himself an agnostic, a skeptic, but he does believe that some form of God probably exists. And it's mostly because the universe itself, Appears to be created. 


[00:21:39] We can tell when things happen by accident. We can tell when there are patterns in the sand appear to be written, like words and letters and things, and we can tell when there are just random patterns that emerge in the sand that appear to have no rhyme or reason to it. We can tell when there are a bunch of bricks that have fallen into a mound and are chipped and just kind of ended up in that way, and we can tell when they've been stacked to form a house. 


[00:22:02] We can tell when there are things that have when things are put together that have And when we look at human beings, when we look at our genetic code, when we look at The things that we're able to do, we seem to be like incredibly capable machines. And we have DNA and we have machinations inside of us that seem to operate on a set of rules. 


[00:22:25] And they seem to have a higher function and a higher set of intentions and sub intentions. They, they seem to work in a way as something would be designed to work. It doesn't look like a shambled mound of mutations and calluses and tumors and stuff that just somehow works, and we don't know why. It all looks intentional. 


[00:22:46] And even people like Richard Dawkins, a very famous atheist, will refer to the fact that at the very least it looks designed. So, The argument from design is one of the more powerful ones. Typically the rebuttal to that is, well, we just live in a multiverse or the universe is just so big that the odds of something like us happening are essentially guaranteed because the universe is just so darn big, you guys. 


[00:23:09] And that's, I don't find that to be particularly compelling. I think we can go into that another time. If we decide we want to cover just this, but. 


[00:23:19] Cody: I don't know, I wanted to cover cheese people. 


[00:23:22] Ben: Cheese people. Yeah. The, one of the easiest rebuttals to the idea that, well, the universe is just so darn big that anything can happen. 


[00:23:29] Well, do you believe in Batman? 


[00:23:32] Gina: Yeah. 


[00:23:33] Ben: Batman totally exists. 


[00:23:35] Gina: He's just a rich guy with a car. 


[00:23:37] Ben: Well more than that, he lives in Gotham City. Does Gotham City exist? 


[00:23:41] Gina: In my heart it does. Well, don't worry, 


[00:23:44] Ben: because I have a 100 percent fool proof answer. Proof that Batman exists. Is there a tiny chance that a place like Earth would happen by accident? 


[00:24:00] Well, scientists claim yes. Is there a tiny chance that life would appear on a planet like Earth? Well, yes. Is there a tiny chance that something like humans would develop because of that life? Answer is yes. Is there a tiny chance that on this planet, with this life that is exactly like humans, that has developed just as we are, there is a place called Gotham? 


[00:24:21] Yes. Is there a tiny chance that there is one of those humans in that place called Gotham where a guy develops who is a billionaire and his parents died exactly the way it's described in DC Comics? Yes. Well, yeah. And is there a tiny chance that this guy, whose name is Bruce Wayne, in this other planet that isn't Earth, would then go on to fight crime. 


[00:24:44] As Batman. 


[00:24:47] Ben: Yes. Batman. 


[00:24:49] Ben: And this is the problem with saying that anything that is possible because the universe is so darn big. Basically has to happen, that it will happen. Because literally anything that you can conceive of that is physically possible, you can't say doesn't happen. You can't say that in this same hypothetical world, that another person from another planet that is bigger than Earth shows up, and his name, once he crash lands on Earth, is Clark Kent. 


[00:25:20] And he was from a bigger planet than Earth, which means that he's stronger than Earth. Then Bruce Wayne. 


[00:25:24] Gina: Now you can't even push the little eerie alien button on your mixer. I 


[00:25:29] Cody: would push the crickets button. 


[00:25:33] Ben: Is there a possibility that there is a planet larger than Earth that sustains life that is humanoid? 


[00:25:37] Sure. Is there a possibility that there would be a guy named Zor El who would send his son Kal El after his planet is about to be destroyed? Maybe. A really small chance, but it doesn't matter how small the chance is. 


[00:25:51] Cody: On the spinoff, 


[00:25:52] Ben: we 


[00:25:52] Cody: have 


[00:25:53] Gina: You know what, with the metaverse, all of this is possible. 


[00:25:56] Ben: Yes, all things are possible with the metaverse. 


[00:25:58] Yeah. Just like with God. 


[00:26:01] Ben (2): Oh man. I'm just kidding folks, that is 


[00:26:02] Ben: not even remotely close to true. 


[00:26:03] Cody: Zuckerberg would love you 


[00:26:05] Ben: right now. I'm sure he would. Not. I don't think he and I would get along very well, because I don't get along with lizard people. 


[00:26:14] Cody: Which two can exist. 


[00:26:17] Ben: So yeah, that's more or less covers the argument from science. 


[00:26:21] Gina, was there anything you wanted to add to that? 


[00:26:24] Gina: I just think it's silly to base an argument on a possibility that we have no evidence for. Um, we have evidence for God's existence from science, from history, from morality, from so many different sources, and especially from history, just the way that the Bible played out. 


[00:26:43] We know, just historically, people who are not Christians acknowledge that the things that happen in the Bible really happened. So saying hypotheticals about other planets and other people and aliens and multi universe and all of that, like, Okay, but where's your proof? That's all. 


[00:27:03] Ben: Well, yeah, so there is the theory Occam's Razor, which states that in the absence of conclusive evidence, the theory that takes the least number of assumptions is typically the correct one. 


[00:27:14] And I agree with you, Gina. I think the reality is that you have to take a large number of assumptions to claim that everything has happened purely by accident, undesigned, and, you know, And we don't know how it happened. It just kind of did and whatever 


[00:27:29] Gina: chance and we come in and we leave and we make no impact. 


[00:27:33] Like that's a really sad and meaningless existence. 


[00:27:36] Ben: Absolutely. 


[00:27:38] Gina: Yeah. 


[00:27:39] Ben: But I think that does lead well into the next argument, which you briefly mentioned there, which is the argument of history. So there is the history of Israel, which is recorded in the Old Testament, as well as a couple other sources outside, but not too many. 


[00:27:52] More or less, the Old Testament is the main source of information for Israel's history. And it's tough to go through all of the sources on this. There are a lot of different people who have written at length, and I think Cody probably can fill in a bit more on this as well, because I'm not super versed in everything outside of the Old Testament. 


[00:28:09] The Old Testament, but there are a lot of different archaeological digs that have been done. There are a lot of different people who've written at length. There are certain people like Lee Strobel who have written books kind of compiling some of this information. And I'd say in general, Lee Strobel is actually a great resource for most any question that you have. 


[00:28:26] Whether it's miracles or, you know, Jesus Christ himself, or the reliability of the gospel. He's written books about most of these things, and all of his books are compilations of other people's work, so you can reference them, and go deep down these various rabbit holes that exist for the evidences of the Bible. 


[00:28:43] But, without going too deep into that, essentially, we are fairly certain that the biblical representations of Israel's history are accurate. It is what happened, and at the very least, The Hebrew traditions state very clearly that God has been involved in their country from the beginning and even prior to it. 


[00:29:06] That the people who founded the country, the patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, 


[00:29:14] They, they all knew God, this specific God, Yahweh, even though they didn't know his name. And God has always been involved in Israel's history, its founding, its creation, their exodus out of Israel, the foundations of their laws which were given directly by God, and the prophets who constantly kept bringing Israel back from its crooked ways, and the judges who existed before many of the prophets, who were leaders who were directly chosen by God rather than a formal government. 


[00:29:41] It's like, they are so deeply ingrained and intertwined with God and his word. An entire country for thousands of years. And it's tough to say that all of that, 100 percent of it, is wrong. It's Just stories that were told. Because when you look at it, the Bible repeatedly references areas, and things, and landmarks. 


[00:30:05] And it says, go here and see for yourself. This, it makes references, I believe, to the twelve stones that were taken from the Jordan River, and were piled, and exist to this day. The exist to its, exist to this day line is said repeatedly in the Old Testament. And it's the writer's way of letting you know, this happened, And we have things that are left over from it, and you can see it for yourself. 


[00:30:31] Cody: Yeah, no, I mean, I think that's a huge one, and Lee Strobel's great, I like him, and I can't remember the author of it, but Evidence That Demands a Verdict is a really good book. And, uh, Habermas? 


[00:30:45] Ben: Gary Habermas, yeah. 


[00:30:47] Cody: Habermas, he has some good historical evidence that you can appreciate even if you aren't of the Christian persuasion. 


[00:30:54] Yeah. But even just throughout our modern history, the Bible is used to fact check a lot of other different cultures and archeological digs and different things that have happened throughout time are basically filtered through the Bible and I want to say it's the, Smithsonian has an article about the, how many different points are fact checked by the Bible and confirmed by the Bible that they find outside of biblical history that are confirmed by biblical history. 


[00:31:29] So it is the foundation of a lot of what we have today and have proven and take as fact and history. But yeah, there's still so much question about this book that we're basing a lot of our current history off of. 


[00:31:48] Ben: Yeah, very true. And so that, that does lead nicely into the, the next argument. The argument from morality. 


[00:31:57] So, My take on this argument is, and it was, it was posed very well by one of the, the greater, more well known apologists, Ravi Zacharias, and whatever you think of Ravi, because his life was 


[00:32:11] Gina: Didn't end well. 


[00:32:12] Ben: No. He was one of the Christian leaders who did not finish very well at all. But a lot of his teachings were very solid. 


[00:32:19] And one of the things that he talked about is that if you presuppose that there is some kind of moral law. You have to also acknowledge that there is a moral law giver. Now, there are a lot of people who argue, Well, no, we don't. There's just, moral laws exist. Okay, well, when exactly did they start existing? 


[00:32:39] Because, at the very beginning of the universe, there was no moral law that stated that it was wrong for galaxies to form a certain way. It would be unethical. That doesn't even make sense. When the first life forms formed, the first bacteria, if you subscribe to the theory of evolution, Was there an improper way? 


[00:32:56] For a single celled organism to conduct itself. No. What about the first multicellular organisms? What about fish? What about plants? Is there a ficus code of law? Ficus code of conduct? No. Yes. Okay, sorry, what is it? What is the moral law for a ficus? 


[00:33:14] Gina: Be nice. 


[00:33:16] Ben: That's all they can be. 


[00:33:18] Cody: I don't know, there's some mean ficuses out there. 


[00:33:22] Yeah, let's move it on to animals. I mean, let's talk about dogs. I mean, is there a certain way that dogs should act? Well, around humans, certainly, but to each other? No. But the point is, there's nothing in the animal kingdom that indicates that there are proper ways of conducting yourself. Moral good, moral evil. 


[00:33:44] Once you get to humanity. Suddenly, all of nature seems to be in opposition to us and what we are supposed to do. Every culture, regardless of whether it subscribes to Christianity or not, has a code of conduct that you're supposed to follow. And even those codes of conduct that stand in opposition to the teachings of Christianity typically demand that Christian like conduct from the people who interact with them. 


[00:34:11] They demand honor, they demand kindness, they demand respect. If they break a treaty with somebody, they say that there had to be a very good reason for it, and if someone breaks a treaty with them, they claim that it was, there was no possible explanation for this, that it's the greatest injustice. 


[00:34:26] Everyone expects some version, no matter who it is. of the Biblical teachings that God gave to us, either through the commandments or through Christ's teachings as well. Some variant of that, or at the very least we long for it. We long to be forgiven of things. We know that we have done wrong, that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. 


[00:34:48] Gina: I, uh, I sometimes, so we raise butterflies in backyard. I say we, Cody does not raise butterflies. He has no interest. He gets very annoyed with me when I sit out there for like three hours and watch one hatch. But I was sitting outside a few weeks ago with our oldest daughter and we were talking about how they just know what to do. 


[00:35:06] They eat their milkweed, they climb up the fence, they make their chrysalis, they emerge and they fly away. And then the cycle repeats. And we were talking about like. What a blessing it must be to not have the consciousness to question what you're supposed to do. Like, it's so challenging to have the consciousness and the questioning that we do, and the curiosity, and in some way that has to mirror God, but I struggle with this argument of morality and good and evil just because I do think that evil is rampant right now, and it is changing morality into something that it's really not. 


[00:35:49] It kind of leads me into my question about, as far as experiential or emotional experience, does that count? Do you think that counts as logical, reasonable evidence of God? Because I think we get really caught up on like my truth and not the truth. And then we lose the argument altogether. 


[00:36:09] Cody: Yeah, I mean, for me, personal revelation or personal experience is a lot hard because it's not empirical evidence. 


[00:36:18] So it's not good for everybody. A lot of people can say, jumped over the moon and believe it. But it's hard to prove that to somebody else or even make a reasonable argument for that to, to somebody. Okay. 


[00:36:34] Gina: One for me that's been hard is like, just word of mouth, like, Oh, I heard a story about somebody experiencing this. 


[00:36:42] And I'm like, yeah, okay, well, I'll see, I believe it when I see it. And that's, I think, a stance that we have to combat with the existence of God because they're not going to see it yet. 


[00:36:55] Ben: So my position on this is actually that yes, not only is the experiential emotional evidence, but I would say it's actually probably the most compelling of all the evidences for God, which may sound a bit strange coming from me as I'm someone who's professed to be a very rational, yeah, very reasonable person. 


[00:37:15] The reason that I say this. You're right, there can be people who say, Oh, I just, I was alone in my room, y'all, and the other day, I felt God speak to me, and he's like, Girl, you can go out, and you can do whatever it is that you want, because no matter what, I'm gonna love you. Oh yes, I'm gonna love you, and you can marry that man who's a bit of a deadbeat and isn't good for you, but you know, I'm gonna love you anyway, and you're gonna love him, and you're gonna have a great life with him. 


[00:37:41] Oh yes, that's what he told me. Like, yeah, there's that kind of thing. We do have a lot of people who say, well, God will validate whatever it is that I feel, and what I feel is this. And they equate their feelings with God. That's not really what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is, there are people like my mother and my father. 


[00:38:00] People who, I think the best example would probably be my father and his early life. Where his grandmother was very actively involved in the church and was very active in teaching him about God. And she became very ill. And my dad was very sad. He was completely struck by this because he loved his grandmother. 


[00:38:22] She was a big part of his life. And he felt the Lord speak to him. And said, Can you go on without your grandmother, essentially? And he said, No, I can't. I need her. And the Lord said, Okay. She'll get better. It's okay. She won't die until you're ready. And that became true. She didn't die until many years later, after which he could see that she was in pain. 


[00:38:46] She wasn't dying. But she was in a lot of pain and he remembered what the Lord told him, and he said a prayer, Lord, it's okay. I can let go, I can do it, I'm gonna be fine. And she died shortly after. That is the foundation for a person's whole life. A life of knowing God, truly knowing Him. You can't build on a bunch of stories. 


[00:39:11] Gina: Right. 


[00:39:12] Ben: I can talk to someone to death about information and knowledge and statistics and different people and Gary Habermas and the rebuttals to Bart Ehrman and all that nonsense. In the end, the only way they're going to really know God is if they know that God loves and cares for them. And the only way you're going to know that is one, if you hear about other people telling you what God has done for them, and two, if you've encountered it yourself. 


[00:39:37] Gina: Right. Thank you. 


[00:39:39] Ben: No problem. And I know that you've got. Similar stuff to that. 


[00:39:43] Gina: Yeah, I mean, I wasn't raised like you guys, so my knowledge of God is much more experiential than it is logical, or I haven't read all these 30 books sitting here. I've peeked over his shoulder a few times, and I've done my own studies, but It didn't take Cody Talking me into believing it took me Experiencing God myself in order to have that relationship and really believe so 


[00:40:11] Cody: and I think everybody has to get there I think we've talked before about the you can get 85 percent there, but the other 15 percent you're gonna, you can get 85 percent there logically through study and coming to a reasonable decision that Christianity is the correct worldview, but for the other 15 percent to be bought all the way in, you're gonna have to kind of experience God on your own. 


[00:40:38] Ben: When you see the kind of change that God, and specifically Christ, can make in someone's life. Like, my mother is an incredible example of that. She was a part of the Catholic Church when she was younger, but her whole family turned their backs on the Catholic Church and God generally, and they became militant atheists. 


[00:40:54] They really didn't like God, and that, that became ingrained in my mother and who she was. And then eventually she turned back to God after she married my father, and my dad turned back to Christ as well. And, the changes that she went through, the kind of person that she became, as a result of turning to Christ, she's one of the most noble and incredible women that I know. 


[00:41:18] And, When you hear her full story, I don't have the right to tell her full story, and I wouldn't want to put her and her family in the spot. But to know where she's come from, and to know the things that she's overcome, and to see the kind of peace that she's had, especially with the death of my brother, and the things that she's been able to go through with the troubles that my own family has caused her at times. 


[00:41:38] She's always been the harbor in the storm. She's always been the person you can turn to. And if you ask her how she's able to do that, she will point to Christ and say that He is the So yes, that's by far, I mean, I'm glad you put this point in here because you can argue science and history and morality till you're blue in the face. 


[00:42:00] But in the end, if you've met the man, you don't need it. 


[00:42:03] Gina: Right. 


[00:42:05] Cody: Yeah, you stop worrying about that as much for sure. But that brings us to the next point is why choose Christianity when there is so many religions available? I mean, you can drive around anywhere in the US and you're going to find 15 different religious gathering places, all with different beliefs, different gods, different deities, some multiple And all of 


[00:42:30] Gina: them with convicted believers who think that they have experienced their god too. 


[00:42:36] Cody: And that they're correct in their belief. Right. Yep. So, why Christianity? 


[00:42:43] Ben: Well, the first question, is it true? It's kind of irrelevant to ask about all of those other gods if they're not real. And you can have whatever feelings that you want about things. We can all base feelings around things we eventually can come to know aren't true. 


[00:42:59] If I think that my brother hates me because he said something to me one time, and it was a comment that he made haphazardly, and he wasn't even thinking about it, and then eventually we talk, finally, and he's like, no, dude, I love you. Why would I, why would you think that I hate you? For however much time I spent not talking to him, I thought that he hated me. 


[00:43:16] It doesn't influence reality. It doesn't mean that those feelings about things aren't real, those feelings are absolutely real. But So are you 


[00:43:26] Cody: saying perception is not reality? Unfortunately that is exactly what I'm saying. 


[00:43:32] Gina: Darn. Meow. 


[00:43:35] Ben: But Gina is still a cat. 


[00:43:37] Gina: So Ben, you wrote on our notes universalism and I would like to hear where you were taking it because I had some thoughts. 


[00:43:46] Ben: Well. One of the things that a lot of people put forward is, well, okay, so there's so many different religions out there, why would I even choose one if God exists? And, you know, there's probably any number of ways to get to Him. And if He really loves me, then He's gonna meet me halfway. He's gonna meet me where I'm at. 


[00:44:03] And that tends to be what Universalism is. It's this idea that God is truly loving, and in order for Him to be truly loving, He's going to manifest Himself in whatever way it is the best way to reach Him. Is he the version that the Muslims worship? Well, absolutely, he has to be. And if you worship him truly and fully with your whole heart as a Muslim, you'll reach him. 


[00:44:26] Do you not really follow God, but you're just kind of an agnostic who believes in some kind of God who exists out there? Well, God's gonna meet you halfway if you're a decent person and you really are pursuing this thing you don't know. Then God's going to meet you there and he's going to still love you and bring you up in heaven when all is said and done. 


[00:44:43] No matter what religion, what relationship you have with God, if you really are focused on trying to get to him, he will come to you. 


[00:44:53] Gina: But if Jesus is true, then we can't leave him out. And by following religions that do not acknowledge Jesus, they're missing the most critical part of our eternity. 


[00:45:13] Cody: I mean, and Christianity is not necessarily a club, but, you know, there's strict rules to being a Christian. 


[00:45:22] God's described as a jealous God and you can't throw every other God in there and pay them their dues and still think that is not affecting the God of the Bible. So, not all religion can coexist together, if you follow those religions to what they are to the fullest. And, I'm not too familiar with other religions and their beliefs, but besides Hinduism, I don't know many other religions that allow Tons of gods in that are outside of their general 


[00:45:54] Ben: core It's been said that it's a very common thing for people to say where all religions are basically the same That there's superficially different but fundamentally the exact same I would argue that it's the inverse and it has been argued that it's the inverse that they're superficially the same but fundamentally different And when you look at the heart of each individual religion, they're trying to get to something very different But they all almost all Without exception, follow the same idea of you have to do something to earn. 


[00:46:23] You have to give your life in service to the people in order to earn salvation. You have to kill a certain number of people to cross the great river and achieve your eternal Valhalla, or whatever it is. They're the five pillars of Islam, in the Muslim faith. There's, uh, Certain things in pretty much every single religion that tell you how you have to act in order to earn some greater powers, love, and attention. 


[00:46:51] Christianity is different in that it says you cannot earn it. No matter what, all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. You are a fallen creature. There is nothing you can do to make up for that fallenness, that darkness that lives within each of us. And Christ God has already met you halfway by taking whatever punishment you deserve for all of that and taking it on himself. 


[00:47:16] And all you have to do is now turn to God and say, God, I want to follow you. I will accept the thing that you have done, the service you have done, the sacrifice you have done on my behalf. You have to accept that. And what I find a lot of people who take the universal Unitarian thing is they're essentially saying, well, it doesn't really matter what I do. 


[00:47:38] I'm a decent person by most metrics, and I don't really want to put in any work to find out who God is. But God's definitely going to care about what happens to me, and I don't have to do anything specifically. And I don't really want to. I want to do what I want to do. 


[00:47:55] Gina: But God's not going to judge you. 


[00:47:58] Ben: Yeah. Unless he does, that's always the cast there until he does. Yeah. They say that he's not gonna judge you except if he does judge you, because there are certain things that are no nos, no matter what, no matter how accepting you may feel you are. 


[00:48:10] Gina: I mean, unless you're a minor attracted person. Yes. 


[00:48:13] That's 


[00:48:13] Ben: what I mean. 


[00:48:13] Gina: Unless you're identifying as something that you're not being harsh. But 


[00:48:19] Cody: no, I mean, and universalism is rampant in the Christian Church in America anyway of. I'd separate it a little bit between the, what is it, the Unitarianism, because they believe there is no hell, which I don't get how you come to that conclusion reading the Bible and believing in Christianity, but it's also a very, a vein that is picking up steam in the church 


[00:48:49] Gina: today. 


[00:48:49] Our daughter is turning 12. And we have a blended family, so Cody is the stepfather, and our daughter goes and visits her dad. And one of the arguments that he makes against God is, well, if God is going to, he says, I'm a relatively good person, and if God is going to send me to hell anyway, that's pretty messed up, and why would I want to believe in that kind of a God? 


[00:49:13] And this is also the child who has a Jehovah's Witness grandmother, a Muslim stepmother, and just a whole bunch of other religions. I don't know, this subject specifically hits home for us because we've been trying to battle these conversations with a 12 year old for a really long time, and these are questions that she desperately wants to have clear and concise answers for because they attack her so often with judgment for her faith, but I think the harsh reality in proving and sharing about the existence of God is that you're always going to have people who say, that's just not true, no matter how much evidence you bring them. 


[00:49:55] So, is there anything we can discern about God without using the Bible? 


[00:50:00] Cody: That's a tough one. That's a common theme for skeptics. What happened to all of the people who didn't get evangelized or those remote cultures, do they have a chance at God? And usually what I, what I believe and what I think is Abraham, Isaac, All of them didn't have the Bible and they still had direct interaction with God. 


[00:50:28] He made himself known. So, what would stop God from personally revealing himself to other people? When you get into other cultures and other stories about having a, a God that is one and that's a whole different other vein, but Also, I believe it's Romans 1, 16 and 17 that tells us that God has made himself known by creation and that no one can live without excuse. 


[00:50:57] The creation and the world we live in is a good enough explanation to how we can come to a reasonable decision that there is a God and try to come in contact with that God outside of the Bible. 


[00:51:14] Ben: So there was an attempt by C. S. Lewis through the work Mere Christianity, which was a series of talks that he did over the radio, and was eventually compiled into a book. 


[00:51:24] But he made a stab at trying to get to the point of the biblical God without specifically citing the Bible. And I would highly recommend that everyone take a look at it. It is great fundamental reading, both if you just want to understand the Christian perspective, and if you want to know your foundational ideas a lot better as a Christian. 


[00:51:48] But, he does cover the ideas that, when you look at nature, kind of like what I was talking about before, when you look at nature seems to be completely alien to us as people. It seems to operate on a savage scale, a primal scale, where there is no right and wrong, there's a lot of destruction, there's a lot of things that we feel are very dark, and yet we, for whatever reason, when we fall into that same pattern, that's considered evil. 


[00:52:17] And most, if not all, civilizations pull themselves away from that, and one way or another, they all seem to have some version of morality. Not as different as A lot of people would argue when you really look at it. Because at the very least, they still have ways they would prefer to be treated by others, and there are still certain ways that even if they will act, if they will act with aggression towards other people, if that same level of aggression is enacted on them, they consider it to be evil. 


[00:52:48] So yeah, we're all hypocrites, we all recognize that. But it seems that there is a kind of universal way that we all seem to want to be treated. As humans. And What C. S. Lewis more or less refers to is the idea that a fish doesn't think it weird that it's wet when it's in the ocean. We think it's weird that we're here. 


[00:53:08] We think it's weird that we experience things, that we experience morality, and we get this feeling that things are wrong, that the world itself isn't right. Why would we feel that way if this is really the way the world, one, has always been, and two, is meant to be? 


[00:53:27] Gina: That's our most exploited emotion. It's what is running Money in america right now. 


[00:53:34] It's where everybody's money is going is to fill this void 


[00:53:37] Ben: the sense of unfairness this Inequality this injustice that seems to exist 


[00:53:43] Gina: I got my brick right here. I found a desire within myself that no experience in this world can satisfy the most probable Explanation is that I was made for another world C. 


[00:53:53] S. Lewis. 


[00:53:54] Ben: Yep That's a good quote. That's a very good quote. C. S. Lewis is kind of full of those. 


[00:53:59] Gina: I know. 


[00:54:01] Cody: Yeah, he's a good one liner. 


[00:54:04] Ben: But in the end, I think there are limits to how far you can get without the Gospels. I think that you can learn a decent amount about God. You can come to an understanding of who it is he should be. 


[00:54:18] Oddly enough, C. S. Lewis wife, Joy. It talks about her coming to God. And one of the reasons she ended up turning to Christianity specifically was because of her experience with God separate from Christianity, where one night when her husband was nowhere to be found and they had no clue where he was, and she was terrified and she was sitting all alone. 


[00:54:39] She described a moment where God was stalking her like a cat. And at that instant, that tiny moment of complete vulnerability, God pounced. And she felt there was someone in that room with her in 30 seconds of her life. She felt God was physically there. And she felt everything that God felt. And it was like trying to fit the ocean into a thimble. 


[00:55:04] And she could feel the immense compassion and the immense love and the immense caring. And everything that comes with the biblical version of God that we know was there. And so eventually when she was trying to find the God that she felt, the God that she knew existed, she came upon the Gospels. And she was a Jew, so she'd kind of been trained to feel innate hostility towards just the very name of Jesus. 


[00:55:34] But when she really looked at it, she knew, without a shadow of a doubt, that Jesus was the person she met. So I think there are valuable things you can learn separate from the transcript. From the doctrine of Christ and from the Bible itself. But in the end, most things that people discover will lead them to it. 


[00:55:57] Gina: That's beautiful. Good job. Thank 


[00:56:00] Ben: Good job, Joy. 


[00:56:03] Gina: So can we trust our feelings, our gut or discernment without using or even knowing the Bible? I say no. It's okay, you can say no too. If that's what you believe. 


[00:56:19] Cody: I mean, I would say no without using the Bible. I mean, if It depends on where you base it. Like, do I look for the answers of life? 


[00:56:28] Do I need to This financial investment. Where is the Bible gonna tell me which stock I need to put money in? No. Or like 


[00:56:36] Gina: feelings of safety. 


[00:56:37] Cody: But filtering, like my world view is from the Bible and my decisions are filtered through that world view. In that sense, yes. If that makes sense. 


[00:56:48] Gina: Yeah. I kind of ask this question with Ephesians 4 14 in mind. 


[00:56:55] Which is, then we will no longer be infants tossed back and forth by the waves and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming. I know that's not necessarily talking about emotions, but that's how I feel emotionally a lot. Like it's up and down and it's tossing me back and forth in the waves. 


[00:57:18] And I can't trust my own emotions the way that I can trust the stability of God. If that makes sense, 


[00:57:25] Cody: it makes perfect sense. 


[00:57:28] Gina: But that's something I've had to learn cause I used to get caught up and almost like addicted to those big feelings and it would prevent me from having the stability in my relationship with God. 


[00:57:39] And it was sort of like I depended on those big feelings and big experiences in order to Feel like God was with me and feel like he was real and it took me a while to realize he's always with me And he's always real 


[00:57:53] Cody: Yeah But I think if you turn that around and you do filter it through a Christian worldview those feelings can be used for Your benefit rather than your detriment. 


[00:58:05] Gina: No, I think it's just like figuring out what is reliable like testing everything and If you're testing everything you have to have Like a rule to test it against and scripture provides that 


[00:58:19] Ben: for sure So to an extent I do agree However, I would actually argue that our feelings, our gut, and our discernment can be more reliable than It's argued in Christian teachings a lot of the time. 


[00:58:38] One of the reasons I give is because, one, it's said in the Bible that God writes His commandments on our hearts. And it's not just Christians and Jews and whoever it is that believes in God. It's all of us, so that we have no excuse. If we truly have no excuse, then it should also be possible for someone who is not a Christian, someone who is not acquainted with the Bible, to have those commandments written on his or her heart. 


[00:59:02] And to be able to make discernments about what is right or what is wrong based on the commandments written on their heart. 


[00:59:08] Gina: Definitely. 


[00:59:09] Ben: So, if a person is truly pursuing what is right and what is wrong, they should be able to, using their gut, using their discernment. Know what the right decision is. And I would say a good example of this is actually Dr. 


[00:59:22] Jordan Peterson. Because he's not a Christian specifically. Though he's grown a lot closer to that in recent years. And he's studied the Bible a lot and he has his series on the Daily Wire. But in talks with how he started on this path a long time ago. He would, he, the story goes, I believe, that he would be talking to people, Oh, sorry, I need to use the Jordan Peterson. 


[00:59:45] I'd be talking to people, and I would be in conversation with them, and I would say certain things. Are you 


[00:59:49] Gina: Kermit, or are you Jordan Peterson? I'm Dr. 


[00:59:52] Ben: Jordan Peterson. He sounds exactly like Kermit. It's part of the joke with him, and he's aware of it. It is very funny, and he's a good joker. He's a good sport about it. 


[01:00:01] But yeah, he'd be saying how he'd be talking to people and he'd be in conversation with them and he'd say something and there was a tiny voice inside of him that would say, well, you don't really believe that, that idea isn't yours, you know, that's not true. You're saying that just to get on this person's good side. 


[01:00:20] And he said, I realized that most of the things I'm saying, I don't believe or are wrong or are lies or make me weak. And I made a conscious. Decision to listen to that voice and I stopped saying those things and I cut out 90 percent of the things that I said but that remaining 10 percent was strong and I built my life around that and a similar thing was said by C. 


[01:00:44] S. Lewis that his turn to Christ actually started around the time where he made a conscious decision to start listening to his conscience I do think that there are a lot of people who make claims about their feelings and their emotions and they follow those I And they substitute their feelings and their emotions in temporary things that give pleasure or comfort With things that they know to be true. 


[01:01:05] I do think that ultimately Everybody does know what right and wrong is But right and wrong are difficult things Especially if you want to follow the truth if you want to dedicate your life to being good, that's really hard. 


[01:01:19] Gina: It's hard to stay relevant And people want to be relevant. 


[01:01:23] Ben: Yes. And so the easiest thing to do is to lie to yourself. 


[01:01:27] And say, it doesn't matter. Or say, no, what I'm doing right now is good. And you can typically tell people who are lying to themselves. Even people who are lying to themselves can tell when other people are lying to themselves. And you can tell the absolute hell that a person can put themselves in by lying to themselves. 


[01:01:44] So yeah, all that is to say, I do think it's possible. And I do think it's actually fairly common for people who don't know. The story of God or the Gospels. To have an intuition that is right on these things. Because God has ultimately written it on all of our hearts, so we have no excuse. 


[01:01:59] Cody: But if God is real Why does it seem that he is so hidden to us? 


[01:02:11] Ben: Probably Because we're not looking. Oh 


[01:02:16] Cody: Care to expand on that? I have Some discussion on this one, but 


[01:02:20] Ben: Sure, and I'll be quick, because I've been talking for a while, and I would like to hear your points on this as well as Gina's. But, for me personally, there was a time fairly recently where I was seeking God for something very specific in my life. 


[01:02:34] And the church had gone through a period of prayer and fasting, and I had been seeking for that specific thing, and I didn't hear from God. And then I had another time of specifically just fasting like a pure fast because the church's fast was a bit different There was we were just abstaining from certain things And I did a full fast of not eating for about a day and a half and I didn't hear from the lord directly for anything But my life started to change very quickly after that oddly enough cody the day after I finished that fast brought up this podcast and oddly enough You The day after I finished, I was looking into starting to do Russian Samba, which has been a great add to my life, and there was another friend of mine who suddenly contacted me and asked me about a couple of different things, which I won't go into, but my life started changing dramatically after that point. 


[01:03:27] And the Lord did speak to my heart with something, and he said, If I gave you the answer to the question you're asking, would you accept it? If you're seeking God. And you think that he's hidden. If he revealed himself to you, as he really is, would you accept him? I think for most of us the answer is no. 


[01:03:54] Because what if you say that you're looking for him and you find him, and he says, everything you are doing is wrong. Everything. And I demand your whole life. I demand everything that you are, and everything you will ever be, will be. And your past, and your loves, and your hates, and your fears. I demand all of that. 


[01:04:16] Come and follow me. If that's who God is, are you the type of person who would say, Okay. 


[01:04:25] Cody: That's a good question. 


[01:04:27] Ben: Now I'm not saying that God would demand all of that from you necessarily. 


[01:04:31] Gina: But he has. 


[01:04:32] Ben: But he has, yes. There are people who've been asked to do any number of different things. 


[01:04:39] Gina: Kill their first born son. 


[01:04:41] Ben: And ultimately, he wasn't killed, but yes. Right, 


[01:04:44] Gina: but we're not asked to do that kind of stuff, and yet we don't even make the smallest sacrifices a lot of times. 


[01:04:49] Ben: No. So that's my feeling on it. It isn't truly that God is hidden. It's that if he were to reveal himself to us, we would reject him. And so to keep us from the ultimate sin of rejecting him directly after he reveals himself to you, he holds himself back, and he slowly, Agonizingly slowly at times, reveals himself to us in ways we can accept. 


[01:05:13] At first through our logic and reasoning, if that's how we're able to understand him. At first through our emotion and our feelings, if that's the only way we can understand him. But very slowly, over time, we start to see him. 


[01:05:26] Cody: I like that. 


[01:05:27] Gina: It's really interesting how you just described that. Cause I had a dream this week. 


[01:05:32] That, like, Jesus was coming back, and when I realized what was going on, I, like, yelled no. Cause I wasn't ready. I didn't have my kids with me and we weren't prepared and together. And then I realized like the horrible fact that I said no to Jesus coming back. And then my dream, I was like, yes, come, I'm sorry. 


[01:05:54] And it was like, the moon was like a timer and it was like counting down and I hadn't missed the boat, but just my attitude, like my heart posture about seeing Jesus, like in person on the earth. I was like, panicking about all of the things that I was worried about, instead of just being obedient and, I don't know, worshipping Jesus in all of his glory. 


[01:06:19] And we spend a lot of time looking for somebody who's already here. So, I don't know, that was the biggest thing for me in becoming a Christian, was the realization that through everything I've ever been through, and I've been through a lot, God was there and kept me alive when I should not have survived and protected me from people and things and situations that in hindsight I didn't realize and now that I can look back at the whole picture, like he's always been there and I missed him. 


[01:06:48] He didn't miss me. So for those who feel like God is hidden, he's actually with you right, right now. He's omnipresent, all knowing, and he's not hiding. 


[01:07:01] Cody: Oh, I like that. I'd come at it from a little bit of a different angle. Definitely agree with what you both said, but Also, to me, if Just, we have the Bible and that is how we understand God. 


[01:07:19] One of the ways we can understand God. And we learn a lot about his character through the Bible. We understand that he is a relational God and wants that authentic, more authentic relationship than just kind of this self imposed relationship with his people. And if God was ever present from just start to finish, and I guess I should lead with that there, there is in the Bible, this holiness aspect to God that we can't really comprehend and what that demands. 


[01:07:52] And obviously sin is the separation from our true communication and communion with God. And we still live in a fallen world and that has sin present. So there is some disconnect there, but if we're living and we're still sinning, and every time we sin there's this giant sword that follows us around in the sky that strikes us down, would you choose to follow God, if, or, or choose to love God, if that was the case, it would be more a relational love out of fear rather than a true, okay, I buy what you're saying. 


[01:08:31] I understand you. I love you for the sacrifices that you made for me. I think it's a lot different. I think he is hidden because if he wasn't and the, the holiness and perfection that he demands, Couldn't be known by us, but also if you look at any theophany in the Bible, most of the time those people fall down and cower in fear when they see God, and I don't think that's the relationship He wants with us. 


[01:09:05] Ben: Absolutely not. I agree. 


[01:09:08] Gina: That was beautiful. 


[01:09:09] Ben: Absolutely. 


[01:09:11] Gina: So, is it even necessary for us to acknowledge God's existence? 


[01:09:18] Cody: Is that a real question? 


[01:09:21] Gina: It's written on my paper, I had to ask. 


[01:09:24] Ben: Oh, darn it. Foiled again, curses. I mean, yeah, I would say that it is absolutely necessary to acknowledge God. I do think that there are a lot of people who don't. 


[01:09:36] I think there are a lot of people who feel like, Okay, I'm alive, I continue to exist as I have throughout my entire life. Throwing God into the equation isn't going to change anything, because I'm still me. And what on earth does a big guy in the sky care about what it is that I do? But in the end, one, if you're even interested in the truth, yes, objectively, if God exists, if the ultimate father of creation who made you and all before you and everything around you, if that guy exists, yeah, that's worth knowing and that's worth acknowledging. 


[01:10:09] Especially if he is the version that is presented by both the Jews and the Christians and even the Muslims. who is aware of you specifically and is aware of what you're doing and has passed down commandments of what you should be doing. Yeah, obviously it's important for you to know, to acknowledge that he's there, because that's part of not just acknowledging reality, but the first step towards learning what it is that you should be doing, what your purpose is, and how to fulfill that purpose. 


[01:10:44] Cody: No, I like that, and for me I agree that it does. Demand Acknowledgement And there's a guy that used to go to our church that used to tell this funny story about how the first time he told his wife that he loved her she didn't respond for weeks and he went in to say when Jesus sacrificed himself on the cross for us that was a that was an expression that demands a response And I, I agree. 


[01:11:17] It demands a response. It demands acknowledgement that the creator of our lives would put his own on the line for us to be in communion with us. It demands acknowledgement. 


[01:11:34] Gina: And there's a certain element of declaration that goes with salvation. So, Salvation requires an acknowledgement. 


[01:11:45] Ben: Absolutely, you can't acknowledge something that isn't there or that isn't real. 


[01:11:51] Gina: Thanks for tuning in to Logic of God. If you liked what you heard, please subscribe and share and leave a review. You can follow us on social media or send us an email at logicofgod at gmail. com

Is Faith Logical?

[00:00:00] Cody: Hi, welcome to Logic of God podcast. I'm Cody. 


[00:00:14] Gina: I'm Gina. 


[00:00:15] Ben: And I'm Ben. Today we're going to talk through some of the reasons of why we think that faith is logical and what that means for faith. 


[00:00:36] Ben: All right, so starting out, I think the first question would be, is it possible to apply logic to God in any way, to religion generally? Because there is kind of a stigma in our culture of, okay, there is logic and reason. And then there is faith, and the two don't intersect at any point. So is it possible for us to be reasonable and apply logic to our faith? 


[00:00:59] Cody: Definitely so. I would say yes. One of the ways that we do that is how we look at and analyze scripture. So there's different methods you can use for analyzing scripture. Hermeneutics is one of those processes and different types of digesting theology and systematic theology. How we approach God logically is we go in with some presuppositions. 


[00:01:21] The first one being God exists. I think we all believe that God is at least a possibility of existing, but I mean. Just just a little bit. Maybe maybe I'll grant you that one. The next one would be, you know We believe God is good and perfect in his goodness. The next would be God loves us So God God loves us. 


[00:01:45] The next would be he came as a human So he came to live among us and came in the form of Jesus. He suffered he died He rose again and is alive now The next would be scripture and how God speaks to us, whether through personal revelation or just through scripture. There's many different avenues, but that he does talk and speak to us. 


[00:02:10] Ben: Yeah, and I would say that we do have other assumptions aside from just these. Part of these assumptions are informed by our life experiences, by our tendencies. So like, Cody and I are very logical, reasonable people by nature. To a fault to an extent. We can try to pursue Knowledge and understanding of a topic before we would pursue the emotional or the passionate or the faithful side of it first, whereas Gina doesn't struggle with that. 


[00:02:39] It's not that she's not intelligent or she's not reasonable, but that's not 


[00:02:42] Gina: debatable. I would say 


[00:02:43] Ben: not. I mean, you're a part of this podcast for a reason, but that's not the thing that. You're pushed to it's not your nature to to pursue that to I'd say a radical degree like Cody and I do You say what we do is radical in a sense. 


[00:02:58] I maybe not 


[00:03:00] Gina: I think the pursuit of logic for Cody. I can't speak for you But for Cody it it prevents him from having the relational aspect of God because Cody's like, all right I'm looking for you. Where are you in in pages of Scripture and God's like Dude, I'm right here. 


[00:03:20] Like, hello. 


[00:03:21] Ben: And I would say I'm, I'm very similar in a lot of respects. I don't know if it's a super common problem. And it is a problem that can be addressed. It is something where you can take some steps back. You can understand the things that you can reason through and the things that you can't. And that's some of the stuff we'll be talking about on today's episode. 


[00:03:39] Going into it. Yes, those are our core beliefs. And we chose those specifically because they're shared amongst. I would say all Christians. I can't think of any denomination that would disagree, strictly speaking, with any of those individual points. 


[00:03:53] Gina: Would love to hear from you if you do disagree with those. 


[00:03:56] Seriously, 


[00:03:57] Ben: like, if you agree, if you disagree as a Christian with Christ's existence, I don't know why you would be a Christian to begin with. But, Or God's goodness or his existence. I would really want to know if you don't believe God actually exists. The point is, is that we do have other assumptions, but I think all Christians can agree on these. 


[00:04:17] And from these, we should be able to expand and interpret scripture and interpret the ideas presented in scripture in a way that is consistent and can help us to understand God more, to understand his glory, his nature, and bring us to different doors that we do need to walk through. I don't believe that logic can lead us to open these doors, but I do believe that it can bring us to them, if that makes any sense. 


[00:04:42] Cody: No, for sure. Definitely agree it would lead you to those doors. I think the more that you read or dive in, the doors, there's more doors to go through instead of having to wait till they're presented to you. I think you could find a lot of that through study and through applying yourself to study. 


[00:05:01] Gina: I do want to make a quick comment because it kind of leads into the first question that we've kind of typed out here, but if you're the kind of, you know, Christian that Google searches what the Bible says about something, or you, you know, cherry pick your way through the Bible, you're not going to have the same success in processing the logic behind God. 


[00:05:25] And I want to challenge you because that's how I used to be in this specific episode to lean in and. And I think that's what's going to be better about reading in your Bible, because you're not going to access any logical parts of God by cherry picking your way through the 


[00:05:40] Ben (2): Bible. Yeah, 


[00:05:41] Cody: absolutely. On that, I'd like to say you hear context is king a lot. 


[00:05:44] Even in our church, you hear context is king a lot, and that doesn't mean the verse right before the one. There's a whole lot more context that goes into understanding, you know, who the people were that were being written about. So you have a cultural aspect. And how they were raised and the audience, how, how they would receive it. 


[00:06:04] You also have the different timelines and a, a lot more aspects into context, quote unquote than, than just the verse before and the verse after for scripture. It goes 


[00:06:15] Ben: perfectly into our first question, what does it look like to analyze scripture? Yes. So, yeah, kind of going off of what you were talking about, a lot of that is. 


[00:06:24] There is the historical context, there is the biblical context, obviously, where you're looking at the verses before and after, reading the Bible in its entirety, but even reading the Bible in its entirety, there are a lot of things that the Bible talks about, individual historical events, that it doesn't expound upon. 


[00:06:41] It doesn't give you a whole lot of information about what it's talking about, like Korah's Rebellion. Like, what's Korah's Rebellion? Why are we talking about this? Why is it even being brought up? And so, it helps to look at additional resources, it helps to go into the original wording of different things. 


[00:06:58] So, in the original language, what do certain phrases mean? How do they translate? What was the process by which the original Hebrew, Or rather, the original Aramaic, and ancient Phoenician scholarscript, and Greek, and all of the different languages that kind of came together to make the Bible. How did all of that happen? 


[00:07:17] What was the author's original intent? Is this always the way the Bible has been written? Have there been any changes? All of these are very important things to look at when you're trying to analyze Scripture. Because it will inform a lot of different things. If the Bible has been changed a lot, okay. If it's been changed a whole lot over the course of years, how do I trust it? 


[00:07:37] If it hasn't changed a whole lot, was it right to begin with? 


[00:07:41] Gina: So Ben, what are tools that you use to, to learn those things? 


[00:07:44] Ben: The internet's a really helpful thing. Typically, the, the resources that I use are other authors. So there's J. Warner Wallace. He's a great guy. He wrote a lot of different books. One of them is Cold Case Christianity. 


[00:07:56] He is a great resource. For a lot of information on the New Testament, specifically about Jesus Christ himself. There are other guys like Lee Strobel who have compiled a lot of different books. There's like The Case for Miracles, The Case for Christ, The Case for the Resurrection. And he compiles a lot of different information for you. 


[00:08:12] He doesn't go super deep into everything. If you want super deep, And, to be fair, if you read a lot of these books, he will give you references to those books. And then if you're looking for external stuff, there are other guys like Dr. Gary Habermas. He's the guy who created the minimal facts argument. And There are some people who have issues with that argument, and we may go into exactly what that is at some other time, but that's not super important right now. 


[00:08:38] Gary's written a lot of different works, and he's compiled a lot of different extra biblical information, as well as sources that aren't Christian. So, hostile sources, some people like Bart Ehrman, who are textual critics and historians, who don't necessarily agree with the divinity of God. Christ or the inerrancy of scripture or anything like that, but who do have some information that they can provide as far as maybe dating of the gospels, people who are not necessarily friendly to scripture and what they have to say about it. 


[00:09:08] And that's a lot of useful stuff when trying to figure out exactly where we stand and why we stand in what the Bible says. 


[00:09:15] Gina: That's awesome. Cody, what about you for your resources? I know you've got probably four feet of them sitting next to me. Yeah, all that stuff should be 


[00:09:23] Ben: on a bookshelf. 


[00:09:25] Cody: Books, definitely. 


[00:09:27] I read a lot of dead people. I think it's good. You know, I like lately a lot of Second Temple literature to kind of dive into the Old Testament. They're closer to that time. So I think their writings were a little bit more Useful than current modern writers on Old Testament understanding and interpretation. 


[00:09:46] Just got Logos for many other exegetical works and commentaries, it's great. And just plain old Google. 


[00:09:53] Ben: Yeah, I mean, the internet is the source of all evil, but it's the source of some good. It can be occasionally useful. 


[00:09:59] Gina: I'm a fan of the concordance and also blue letter Bible and the Bible project. Those have been really helpful for me. 


[00:10:06] I'm not as, as deep in theological as, as Cody and Ben, and I take it a little, a little lighter. So if you're looking for a lighter, go there. 


[00:10:15] Ben: Well, and to be fair, you really don't need to go in as deep as Cody and I do. Right. Kind of like I said, at the very beginning of this, he and I take this to a kind of crazy degree. 


[00:10:26] Yeah. And the average Christian ultimately doesn't need to know the names of every single objection to the Bible as well as 15 different counter arguments against it. For most people, there are a set of things that you should pursue that are reasonable. You should know who was Jesus. Is there evidence for him that he actually existed? 


[00:10:46] Is there a solid, good reason for us to believe in the Bible? Is it reliable? If so, how so? How much reliable? Like, how much should we invest in the reliability of the Gospels and the Bible in general? All these things are questions that have been asked for thousands of years, as long as the Bible has been around. 


[00:11:05] And you'll find a lot of people who have invested their entire lives in answering these questions. And so you don't need to have the answer to every single question. Sometimes it is enough to know that there are people who can answer it. But I find that there's always a certain set of questions that all of us struggle with. 


[00:11:21] And that really depends a lot on who you are. For Cody and I, the questions are often very logical in nature, and they tend to send us into spirals of arguments and counterarguments and counterfactuals and all sorts of nonsense. But there are other people who struggle with very different things. The most common thing that I see people struggling with, oddly enough, is the question of evil. 


[00:11:42] And I don't think we'll go into that in this episode. It's enough to say that individual issues have been addressed. Individual Christians in the past, large numbers of church fathers, large numbers of missionaries and good men of faith, people who've been Christians forever and people who haven't, have written works about this, and who have genuinely taken it to heart. 


[00:12:03] And also, it's important to know that these things are things that we do struggle with as Christians all the same, even when we know the answers, or we feel like we know the answers. 


[00:12:12] Cody: No, yeah, for sure. The Bible's been around a long time, most likely the issue you're dealing with is not new. So, 


[00:12:18] Gina: nothing is new under the sun. 


[00:12:20] You can. That sounds biblical. 


[00:12:23] Cody: Yeah. And everything is meaningless. No. Yeah, there's, there's lots of different topics that have been covered over the course of history that are not new, but sometimes you get, you know, a resurgent of certain topics and everybody thinks it's new and a hot button issue, but it's been around for. 


[00:12:41] quite some time. So definitely can research on if there's a specific issue bothering you. There's probably a lot of old authors that have written about it in the past, 


[00:12:51] Gina: but don't just look for like a one sentence verse that you can put on your Facebook page, like actually study it like real study. 


[00:13:00] Ben: Yeah. 


[00:13:01] The pursuit of knowledge for this, like deeper understanding is very important, but that does bring up. A good question, which I believe is our next one. When does my desire for logic or knowledge or understanding become idolatry? When is it too much? 


[00:13:15] Cody: That's a good question. Yeah. I've definitely hit that wall multiple times because the pursuit of knowing definitely can become all encompassing and just take up all your time. 


[00:13:26] I remember when I first got into kind of just deeper study and getting into things, the just realm of Calvinism and free will thinkers and just the, the rabbit hole of everybody fighting on that definitely got consuming. And, you know, you want to take a hard stance and, and whatnot, but you also got to remember your first love at the end of the day, you know, being Jesus and, and following him and what that looks like. 


[00:13:53] Gina: Can you guys speak to your motive behind the desire for the knowledge? 


[00:13:57] Ben: It's tough to say exactly why anyone desires something specifically. For me, it's the way my mind works. I'm not a naturally very emotional person, or rather, I don't enjoy exploring emotions to a deep degree. I like to explore things intellectually. 


[00:14:13] I like to amass knowledge and I like to use that knowledge to control things. And that's one of the things about knowledge is that it allows you to affect the world around you. And not just, you know, physical things, and it allows you to affect emotional things. If you understand that emotional people exist, and how their emotions manifest, and what those emotions drive them to do, then you can affect those people, for good or for ill. 


[00:14:35] And, yeah, so ultimately, the reason that I'm I feel the drive to do intellectual studies into Christianity, into God, is just because that's my natural inclination. That's the way I look at the world generally. I actually have a degree in physics, so by my nature, I look at the world as something that is understandable. 


[00:14:54] It's a series of numbers and letters. If you have enough information, you can predict and understand anything. And that's ultimately one of the issues that I've had in Christianity, is that there's only so much you can do to understand God. At some point, he is beyond your understanding. It's not that logic isn't useful. 


[00:15:13] But it is that if you pursue knowledge for knowledge's sake, you're attempting to try to gain a one up in many ways over God. It's kind of like what I was saying before. If I understand a person's emotions, if I understand what drives them, I can manipulate them to an extent. And I can do that for good reasons or bad reasons, but God's not that way. 


[00:15:33] He knows me. He knows my heart, and He's the one who made me. And ultimately, if I'm trying to constantly learn more and more about Him, it's because I want to find a way to control Him. And I can't. No matter what I do, there's always going to be the vast majority of Him that I can't understand or control. 


[00:15:49] Gina: Thank you for sharing. 


[00:15:50] Cody: No problem. 


[00:15:51] Ben: How about you, Cody? 


[00:15:52] Cody: No, I, I relate with that a lot. Definitely try to put God in a box for sure. To, manipulates an interesting word for it, but at the root, I think that, that is, you know, the, the more you understand about somebody, the more control you have over them. Our feeble minds maybe go that direction with God too, um, pathetic when you think about it. 


[00:16:15] But just what you said, I definitely agree with, but the thing that definitely drives me to further my knowledge and have come to realization because I, I felt weird about it in the past. Also reading Matthew 22, 37 when, you know, we're told to love God with all of our heart, soul, and mind. If I'm not putting what God put in me to use and furthering my knowledge on Him, then I'm not really loving Him with my mind. 


[00:16:44] But again, I also want to be able to relate that knowledge that I learned to other people. So use it for good. Absolutely. 


[00:16:53] Ben: And Gina, what specifically drives you to understand God in the way that you do? 


[00:16:58] Gina: I have a much different perspective than Cody. I have pretty frequent interactions with God. He speaks to me. 


[00:17:08] And my family tells me I'm crazy when I say that, but he does. You know, the Word helps me understand the history, the story, you know, sometimes the purpose for things, but my desire for, for knowing and understanding God is, is more relational. It's because I want to know Him the way that He knows me. And I, I know that that's not going to be possible earth side, but that's not going to stop me from trying. 


[00:17:37] So that's, that's it. 


[00:17:40] Ben: Well, it's definitely not bad. And in a lot of ways, I think that actually does bring you much closer to God than That the logical or the reasonable path will. 


[00:17:48] Gina: Yeah. 


[00:17:49] Ben: A direct connection is always much better than trying to tangentially try to understand God through something he made. 


[00:17:55] Gina: It definitely makes it interesting in our marriage. I guess I should share, like, Cody and I are married. Yeah, that might have been a good idea 


[00:18:01] Ben (2): to 


[00:18:01] Cody: start with. And I'm not the family that calls her crazy when she No, I 


[00:18:05] Gina: have, yeah, I have a very non religious family. But it makes it very interesting in our marriage because He, he doesn't experience God the same way that I do. 


[00:18:15] Cody: No, we experience God, I'd say, pretty much completely differently. 


[00:18:21] Gina: And when I share certain things, you'll give me your logical explanation for how that's not miraculous or whatever. And I'm like, but you don't understand. So 


[00:18:31] Ben: sometimes, well, something may have. Ultimately, a scientific or a rational explanation, but that doesn't mean that God's not involved in it in some way. 


[00:18:42] Gina: Right, right. And I'm, I'm much more emotional and I'm a woman and you know, that's just the way that I think most of us are wired. You know, I think as far as, as far as like watching Cody as his wife, like in his desire for the knowledge and the logic and the explanation and the reason, like all of that, I think You know, I, I want you to have that emotional relationship with God. 


[00:19:04] And I think you're building that, you know, you've had different experiences in the last year that you didn't ever have before. And so I know there's growth there, but I get worried sometimes that. You know, because you're so hyper focused on study that you miss the opportunity to have those relational interactions with God. 


[00:19:23] And so that's why I actually wrote this question on the outline, because I'd really like to know from your perspective when that desire does become an idol instead of, you know, the path of knowing the Lord. I mean, 


[00:19:36] Cody: for me, when it becomes an idol, I definitely think that's when it's You try to put limits on what God can do, like what I do when you interact with God. 


[00:19:47] You know, if I'm trying to constantly explain it away with logic, I think that's an issue. 


[00:19:54] Gina: Yeah. I'm sorry. I wasn't trying to make it personal. I just. 


[00:19:57] Cody: No. And, and, and I think, I think there is a lot of that in the modern day today just because how do I say this without sounding like a jerk? 


[00:20:08] Gina: Just try. Yeah. 


[00:20:10] Cody: mean, so like, you, you have Benny Hen on one end who does a, you know, sport coat run through thousands of people and knocks them all over. And anybody who is a logical or reasonable person probably is just going to write that off as bullcrap. These people are stupid. You know, they're, they're not experiencing anything, but I've also met some people who speak very highly of him and said that. 


[00:20:35] They've encountered God through him, so it's an interesting position to be in and writing things off just as, I'm not going to say perception is reality, but in some instances I think that that is the case. 


[00:20:50] Ben: So then what would you say is the the limit of logic when we're trying to understand God? 


[00:20:55] Gina: There's always going to be an element of mystery. 


[00:20:58] Cody: There is, and that's one of the things, you know, I have this list of topics I want to study, and divine hiddenness is one of those things, because I don't think, and I've heard somebody say it before on some podcast I listen to, but there's a giant sword in the sky that followed you around, and anytime you did something evil, it slashed you down and killed you. 


[00:21:19] Nobody would do anything bad. Like, if you had instant consequences, there would be no evil or bad in the world, so there really wouldn't be a choice. So there definitely has to be some sort of mystery aspect to God, because there wouldn't be a choice if there wasn't. If everybody knew that God is who he says he is, then there wouldn't be a choice. 


[00:21:44] Sure. I think the direction I would go with that. 


[00:21:48] Ben: So I love to talk about one particular Christian apologetic minister, who unfortunately died a few years ago, Nabeel Qureshi. I bring him up all the time, because I think he probably was one of the greatest Christian apologists who have existed in the past ten years. 


[00:22:02] And I don't say that lightly, considering a lot of the different names that have come up. But in his book, Seeking Allah, Finding Jesus, he talks about how he argued with his friend, Dr. David Wood, who was another Christian apologist. And he spent years, I think it was about three years, Combined arguing with him about Islam versus Christianity and slowly confronting each individual misconception He had about Christianity and coming to an a mental understanding about the different aspects of God in the Bible and about how his objections to the New Testament were And at one point he says that he's 85 percent sure that the New Testament is reliable and that it's correct in what it says about Jesus. 


[00:22:40] And ultimately I don't think you can get much better than 85 percent in most anything when it comes to real life. Because there's always a chance that you're wrong about something. So logic and reason and argumentation got him up to the door. In more ways than one, but it did get him through it. Once he got to that point where he didn't have any more ammunition left, he asked God directly to reveal himself. 


[00:22:58] And he describes in the book that logic and reason got him to the point where he was, where there was nothing else between him and God except himself. That there was no more information, no more knowledge, no more objections. But he was still him. And God was still God. And so he didn't know what his nature really was like, and the only way he could truly know God's nature is through God revealing himself to him. 


[00:23:21] And he did that through one vision and three dreams. So it wasn't through studying the Bible, it wasn't through intellectual understanding, and it wasn't through thinking really, really hard about it. In the end, it was God revealing himself to Nabil. And then there was one more thing towards the end of the story where he had confessed his faith to God. 


[00:23:44] He had said he believes Jesus Christ is Lord. At that point, he had intellectually accepted the gospel. But the point he describes as him truly becoming a Christian is when he broke the news to his family. And it broke his heart. And it broke his family's heart. And it nearly destroyed their relationship. 


[00:24:03] And he went out crying into the street and he's like, God, why didn't you just kill me? I could have taken that, my family could have taken that, I would be with you, and they would have believed that I was still a Muslim and our relationship would have been fine, why didn't you just kill me? And the Lord spoke to him and said, because it's not about you. 


[00:24:21] And at that point, he was truly a Christian, and he felt As if the whole world looked different, and he saw the world the way God saw things, and not the way that he wanted to see them. And, so yeah, all that is to say, there is value in reason. There is value in textual analysis. There's value in looking at the history of the Gospels. 


[00:24:43] But it will only bring you up to the door. In the end, you have to talk to God to open it. And he's the only one who will. You can't do it yourself. 


[00:24:51] Gina: That's really good. 


[00:24:52] Ben: That is amazing. 


[00:24:54] Gina: I have so I want to share maybe I shouldn't I don't know 


[00:24:58] Ben (2): go for it 


[00:24:59] Gina: Okay, 


[00:25:00] Ben (2): or no, I don't know 


[00:25:02] Gina: So I have this like routine at bedtime where I try to Envision the Holy Spirit being present and it helps me fall asleep. 


[00:25:11] And the Holy Spirit to me looks like a pink sparkly cloud and it like hovers. And to me, it doesn't. So one night I was going to bed, I was feeling really unsettled and I couldn't fall asleep and I couldn't see the Holy Spirit. And so I started to get like angry. And I like curled up in a ball and I went into this vision and in this vision I was standing in front of these doors. 


[00:25:41] And so it just reminded me of, you know, in the, in the dream or in the vision or whatever it was, I wasn't asleep. There was like an angel and it said like, you have to knock. So I had to actually knock on the door and ask to be let in. And then I was let in. And so what you're just describing about. You know, you have to actually talk to God to get the door to open, like you absolutely do have to take that initiative because He will not just let you in and He will let you stand there. 


[00:26:06] You know, it's not like when our five year old stands outside waiting to be let in from the backyard. You actually have to ask to be let in. 


[00:26:15] Cody: So yeah, and I mean salvation is through faith. So I don't think you'll 100 percent be able to remove the need for faith like the story of Nabil that you shared There's always gonna be that further step. 


[00:26:30] You can you can only get there. You can only get so far with logic 


[00:26:34] Ben: Well, and you know, what? Dr. David Berlinski. Dr. David Berlinski is a well known skeptic He's he's not hostile towards Christianity or Judaism or any faith. Really? Hebrew is not the kind of man who would dedicate himself to a religion. He wouldn't call himself necessarily religious. 


[00:26:50] He's read the Bible. And he appreciates it, and he thinks that it's a very good book, and he recognizes its importance. And he looks down on aggressive atheists who talk about how there definitely isn't God. And when you listen to him talk about these different things, he talks about how there are no proofs. 


[00:27:07] It's arguments. You can make convincing arguments, you can make unconvincing arguments, and then you can make counter arguments to the convincing arguments, but in the end it's all And Dr. Berlinski is a mathematician. He's accustomed to numbers and those numbers telling the same story every time and being able to walk those numbers to a logical conclusion that will happen no matter who goes through that process. 


[00:27:27] So when he looks at things like the Bible and faith and things like that, he's looking for something that will be 100 percent every single time. This is it in order to believe it, because that's how he is. And he will recognize that it doesn't mean that Christianity isn't true. It means that for him to believe, there has to be a standard, an actual proof rather than an argument. 


[00:27:51] Faith doesn't step into it for him quite yet, I don't think. I pray that it does. I pray that eventually he gets to that point. But I think he really is the manifestation of how far reason by itself can get you. It can get you to an appreciation for God and an appreciation for Christianity and for Judaism. 


[00:28:09] For And to some extent other religions as well, but it can't get you through the door. 


[00:28:14] Gina: Do you think that it requires, like, humility? 


[00:28:18] Ben: Yes. I think the pursuit of knowledge is fueled in large part by pride. 


[00:28:22] Gina: So how would you respond to James 4 6 that says God opposes the proud? 


[00:28:29] Ben: I would agree. 


[00:28:30] Gina: So you're blocking yourself with your pride from having that access of getting through the door. 


[00:28:37] And God is actively opposing you in that. 


[00:28:40] Cody: For sure. 


[00:28:40] Gina: Yeah. Okay. 


[00:28:43] Cody: 100%. Subtle dig, Gina. Thank you a lot. What are you trying to say? 


[00:28:48] Gina: That I love you. And so does Jesus. 


[00:28:50] Cody: Is that an I told you so moment? No, 


[00:28:53] Gina: no. I just, I felt like I needed to make that point for the listeners. 


[00:28:57] Cody: Yes. It's for the listeners, you see. It's for their benefit. 


[00:29:01] The listeners. Yes. So. All of this logic on our end, and we try to put this God in a box of logical reasoning, is God himself logical? Well, so, 


[00:29:16] Ben: I suppose that depends on what you mean by logical. 


[00:29:19] Cody: So would he ask us to do anything illogically? 


[00:29:24] Ben: Well, yeah. 


[00:29:25] Cody: Why is that? 


[00:29:26] Ben: Well, in part, it's kind of like what Gina just referenced with the book of James. 


[00:29:31] It's that he opposes the proud. Oftentimes we look to logic and patterns because we're trying to ascertain the likelihood of success. We're trying to exercise a measure of control. When God asks us to do something that doesn't make sense to us, he is asking for us to relinquish control to him. So like, when he asked the Israelites to walk around Jericho, that didn't make any sense. 


[00:29:53] He never had asked them to do something like that before. He never asked them to do something like that again. And prior to that, he'd asked them to walk around in the wilderness for 40 years. And prior to that, he brought them out of Egypt, the place where they had been enslaved forever, And they had to do a lot of stepping out in faith in that process because Pharaoh came after them with, you know, a few hundred chariots and was planning on either forcibly taking them all back or killing them. 


[00:30:14] There were multiple points where they were told to do something that didn't make sense. And he told them to do it in that particular way because he's God and because they needed to relinquish control to him. 


[00:30:24] Cody: So, would you label all faith as illogical? 


[00:30:27] Ben: Not at all. Okay. Because the thing is, is that the reason you listen to God is because you know He's correct, and you know that He loves you. 


[00:30:35] That's one of the reasons why we've laid out the core assumptions at the very beginning. Just because God asks you to do something that doesn't make sense given the patterns you observe in the universe generally. It doesn't mean that it violates the core assumptions. That God is good, that God loves you, that He knows what He's doing. 


[00:30:53] Those are not violative of what He asked. Asking you to walk around the walls of Jericho, whatever your personal Jericho is, I imagine we've all been asked to do something irrational at some point, something that didn't make sense to us. We're told to do that the way that God tells us to do it, because He is God, because He loves us, because He sees the big picture. 


[00:31:12] And if he asked us to do things the reasonable way, we wouldn't need his help. 


[00:31:17] Cody: Yeah, we could reason our way out of it. 


[00:31:18] Ben: Yeah. 


[00:31:19] Gina: Which I've done before. You end up in the belly of a whale, just to warn you. 


[00:31:24] Ben: I feel like that's also biblical, 


[00:31:25] Gina: in some strange way. But 


[00:31:27] Ben: for the life of me, I can't imagine which story that would be. 


[00:31:31] Gina: Cody shared with me, like probably two years ago now, there was this really sweet video on YouTube and the, there was a pastor and I'm really botching this story, but he basically said that God does not tell us things that are not reasonable. So like, you know, he's not saying thou shall not flap your wings and fly. 


[00:31:50] He gives us like, Things that are actually possible and the example that I'm relating this to from my family is the New Age Spirituality so I want to tackle Logic there because I think a lot of people believe that they can become enlightened enough and spiritual enough to where they don't even need God and I'd like to tackle that just briefly because I know it's not something that we could probably fit in one episode 


[00:32:15] Ben: Sure, so as far as, what are we tackling first? 


[00:32:18] The idea that God never asks us something that is logically impossible? 


[00:32:23] Gina: Well, I wouldn't say that, but I would say more like with the things God tells us not to do. 


[00:32:30] Cody: So, like, the command not to practice necromancing or witchcraft and channeling the dead type of mentality is kind of the bad spectrum and, like, faith to move mountains. 


[00:32:45] Gina: Like, you have the one side of the spectrum that's, you know, New Age spirituality and channeling and crystals and all of that, and then you have like the whole other end that is the faith to move mountains. So I would like to compare and contrast a little bit. 


[00:33:00] Ben: Yeah, there are certain things we're told not to do, like, like witchcraft and a lot of, you know, different vague spiritual things. 


[00:33:07] Tarot readings and whatnot. Not every single thing that we decide not to do as Christians is specifically outlined in the Bible, but you can generally get a feel for what it is you're not supposed to do. And typically when you look at all of these different things, they're actually attempts to take control away from God, spiritual control away from God, and give it to you. 


[00:33:26] And you see this with a lot of new age spirituality, and it It pulls a lot from Eastern influence, like from India. It's the idea that you, at your heart, are the divine being. And because you are the divine being, you are God. You are a part of God, therefore you are God, and therefore the things that you think and the things that you feel are divine. 


[00:33:46] And so you can exercise that divine control in any way that you see fit, because you are God, and God is God, and he can do what he wants. Or she wants, because, you know, if you are a woman and you are God, you are a she. So there's also a big push against intellectual consistency, which kind of ties into the logical theme that we have here. 


[00:34:06] Because when you look at Hinduism, there are so many different gods from so many different pantheons, and Jesus is thrown in there, and they all have different origins for the universe and their births, and it doesn't make sense. You can't actually combine all these things together. But it doesn't matter, because that's just the Mutual exclusivity is not a part of the religion. 


[00:34:26] It's fine. Anyone and everyone can believe whatever, and because it all has an element of truth to it, because it all has an element of the divine, because it is all coming from us, and we are humans, and therefore we are divine, and therefore we are God, and whatever we make is good. So, when you look at a lot of these different practices, they are attempts to rob God of His control over our lives. 


[00:34:46] When you look at the miraculous things that God works through man, whether through spiritual gifts, which, you know, Lord willing, we will address at some point, or miracles that He will work through us without the gifts specifically. And, you know, he does this throughout the Bible, he'll, you know, like, sending birds with, yeah, birds with food to, to the prophets, or, you know, creating manna out of the, the sand of the earth, or whatever. 


[00:35:08] All these things are things that God does, and he doesn't need us to do it. With the practices of witchcraft, or sorcery, or whatever, you are attempting to take that power from God. and use it yourself for your own means. And to an extent, Moses actually practiced this. It's a bit of a niche point in scripture. 


[00:35:27] There's a point where God tells Moses to speak to a rock, and it will open up and gush water. Instead, he strikes it. There was no reason for him to hit it, and it still gushed water. But in the end, he was punished for this, and his punishment was he never got to see the promised land. He chose to work the miracle the way he wanted. 


[00:35:45] That was taking power from God, honor from God, and giving it to himself. And so that's, that's where I'm at with a lot of this stuff. The main reason that it's wrong, aside from inviting demonic influence into your life, which I think we will also probably cover in another episode. And if you don't believe in demons, fine, whatever. 


[00:36:02] But it's the idea that you are trying to pull from something that isn't God to influence the world around you, to take control from him and use it for yourself. 


[00:36:11] Cody: Great explanation. 


[00:36:12] Ben: Thank you. 


[00:36:13] Gina: You said Chef's kiss. 


[00:36:16] Ben: Grazie. 


[00:36:18] Gina: So when is, when is the knowledge good enough? At what point can you comfortably stop? 


[00:36:24] Or can you? 


[00:36:26] Ben: In the words of Habakkuk, his greed is as wide as the grave and like death is never satisfied. I would say that for the people who live off of this stuff, knowledge is never enough. And to an extent, I think that's okay. I think that the constant hunger to know God, if it's tempered with the, the knowledge that at some point when you reach these doors, when you use the knowledge to get to each individual door, you have to ask God to let you in. 


[00:36:54] And in the end, you can't force the doors open with enough headbutts, so to speak. As long as you preach that approach with the required level of humility, I think it's fine. But I don't think I'm ever going to have enough knowledge. I don't think it's ever, it's going to be a. Probably eternal long after my death, I'm going to continue trying to know more and more and more. 


[00:37:14] And I think, you know, all bad things are just a good thing that's corrupted. In the end, a thirst for knowledge I don't think is bad. I think it's when you try to substitute God and your need for Him with your pursuit of knowledge. That's when it becomes a bad thing. 


[00:37:27] Cody: Right, and I think hoarding it for yourself is bad. 


[00:37:31] Absolutely. So it's what you do with that knowledge I think plays a big part. 


[00:37:36] Gina: Well, you guys are practically bursting with it. So 


[00:37:38] Cody: I wish I'm a layman 


[00:37:42] Gina: for now. I don't think you're a layman. I would say I'm more of a A basic layman. Oh, come on. You guys are, your hunger is very inspiring and I wish that more Christians took their study of the word as seriously because I just, I know so many people in so many groups that I lead that they're like, well, I was having a bad day, so I Googled, what does the Bible say about this? 


[00:38:07] And it's like, oh no, no, no, no. 


[00:38:11] Ben: I mean, Google's a tool. It's an okay tool. 


[00:38:13] Gina: It is, but like, God has such a personal explanation for not just like the instance that you're in, but just for your total testimony and getting to watch you guys in your studies and your hunger. Like, I'm hungry for God in a totally different way. 


[00:38:32] And your example over our household has been very, very helpful. Like we were watching our five year old read Genesis today, which Would not happen if you were not as in the word as you are like morning noon and night and it Creates a love for the word in our house For our three children that and for me that I would not have had otherwise, especially with my upbringing So I appreciate that in you. 


[00:38:58] Ben: You're welcome. 


[00:38:59] Gina: Thank you 


[00:39:00] Ben: Well, honestly, I think it's the union of your two perspectives that actually makes you guys work so well together because I think ultimately it's just It's the balance that you should be pursuing. It's the balance of logic and reason versus faith and passion. And when you have all four of those elements together, that's when you can truly know God. 


[00:39:18] And since the two of you are together as man and wife, you're one person. And together, you're pursuing God. And so I think, I do see, Gina, your influence in Cody. And Cody, I do see your influence in Gina. And both of you together influence your children. And I think that that's an incredibly powerful thing. 


[00:39:33] Cody: Thank you. No problem. No, for sure. The logical side, at least for me. The, the logical side definitely hampers the relational side, and I think that's what I've been missing. And what a lot of people who follow the more analytical approach are missing is the relational side with God, which He wants. 


[00:39:53] Gina: Well, it kind of brings us to the last little point, which you already mentioned is Matthew 22, 37. 


[00:40:01] And you love God with all your mind, and He knows that. That's And I think it's just perfecting the other two, your heart and your soul. And the soul is, I think the hardest because it requires like supernatural God stuff in order to accept that was not an articulate way to say it, but 


[00:40:20] Cody: break that down for us. 


[00:40:21] Ben: Well, isn't that some radical supernatural God stuff? Amen. Put it on the shirt. 


[00:40:31] Gina: Yeah, you can pick that up in our merch site on our blog. 


[00:40:34] Ben: Yeah, tune in to Logic of God, buy our merch. Thanks a lot, folks. We're out. Now, I agree. I'm not sure what word exactly is used for soul here. Typically, the Greek word This kind of goes into one of the first points we talked about, where context is important. 


[00:40:50] In the Greek, they had a different interpretation for soul than we do. They had a different term, spirit, for the immortal essence of a person. Soul was actually the union of a person's mind, a person's body, and a person's will. Essentially, what the book of Matthew is saying here, what Christ is saying, and what the Old Testament that he was citing is, the first and greatest commandment is to love the Lord with everything that you have. 


[00:41:15] That's really all it means. Every, every aspect of what you possibly can have. Your emotions, mind, body, will, your spirit, everything. And, yeah, I, I think, while Cody and I do absolutely struggle more with, I think, the heart aspect. Looking around in, in common society, Before I rail on the current state of the world, I think it's important to say that throughout history, when you look, different cultures at different times have struggled with different aspects of loving God. 


[00:41:46] When you look at certain things like the Puritans, they had a very robust, you know, Intellectual understanding of God during that specific societal period. But if you were to, if you were trying to pursue a relational part with God, that would have been a bit more difficult. They were very strict. They, they, they didn't want any kind of sinning whatsoever. 


[00:42:05] Because logically, why would you ever allow any kind of sin? It doesn't make sense. It logically follows that if you know what the right thing to do is, then you only do what is right. And you expunge any kind of resistance to that fact. It logically follows. Right now. We don't have that problem. I would say right now we kind of have the opposite problem. 


[00:42:24] Gina: We have no boundaries. 


[00:42:25] Ben: Yes, there are literally no boundaries. And while it's a lot of, in common culture today, it's very funny to you know, make fun of the Puritans and the Puritanical. All those fundamental Christians from way back in the 1980s, you know, touched by an angel. I mean, in. Yeah, we had a lot of corny stuff from, you know, not that long ago where it was very focused on heaven and angels and the Bible and it was, it was everywhere in pop culture. 


[00:42:50] And now we've gotten to the point where you are your own God. You, whatever it is you decide, whatever it is you feel is God. 


[00:43:01] Gina: Well, you have truth and then you have my truth. 


[00:43:03] Ben: Yes. There is no the truth anymore. It is just whatever truth you feel is the truth is your truth. And I have my truth, except for when your truth interferes with my truth, then my truth is actually the truth. 


[00:43:15] So you better be careful not to interfere with my truth, because then you're going to be in trouble. 


[00:43:20] Gina: That also interferes with my always being right, because that's how I identify. 


[00:43:23] Ben: I also identify as always being right. How can that be possible? That's just my truth. My 


[00:43:29] Gina: uniqueness. It just makes me that special that I can, yeah. 


[00:43:33] Oh, 


[00:43:33] Ben: moral 


[00:43:33] Cody: relativity. That's five episodes there. 


[00:43:38] Ben: To be honest, God willing, we'll get to that as well. But the point is, is that right now, society generally seems to be suffering from a lack of introspection. from a lack of analyzing its own beliefs and seeing if they are intellectually consistent and Lord willing the pendulum will swing back and at some point we'll find a nice middle ground where people Pursue an intellectual understanding of God, but understand that yes, you do need that emotional depth to it as well That's where we're going to try to go with with this podcast specifically. 


[00:44:11] Cody: Yeah 


[00:44:12] Ben: And, you know, thank God we have the, uh, the robust representation here that we do with two logical people and one person who's much more in tune with the spiritual and emotional side. Sorry, Gina, you are a little outnumbered. But No, 


[00:44:22] Gina: that's okay. 


[00:44:23] Ben: But considering how much you love the Lord, I do think you do more than enough work to balance things out. 


[00:44:27] Gina: I try. 


[00:44:28] Cody: But it's the Logic of God podcast, not the Emotionalness of God podcast. 


[00:44:33] Gina: Well, and that's something I put on my, like, notes. You know, I, I believe that we're made in the image of God and emotions. represent a portion of God. So, you know, we have the logical side of God, but we also have the emotional side of God among other sides as well. 


[00:44:52] Cody: Are we going to get into the sevenfold spirit? 


[00:44:54] Gina: No. 


[00:44:56] Ben (2): For another time. There are only so many things we can cover on a single podcast. I suggest we not overdo it, love. 


[00:45:04] Gina: We could make it, like, the revival and just never stop. 


[00:45:07] Ben (2): You know 


[00:45:07] Ben: what? The never ending podcast. Granted, at some point we do need to actually release this thing. 


[00:45:13] But We'll just live stream it. 


[00:45:16] Gina: It'll be on the news. Three people sitting in a room, never leaving. 


[00:45:21] Ben: They have no clue what we're talking about. 


[00:45:25] Gina: Well, thank you for tuning in to The Logic of God. We hope you enjoyed our episode. If you liked what you heard, please subscribe and share and also feel free to leave a review and also follow us on social media. Have a great day.