What is Hell? Part 2

[00:00:00] Cody: Hi, thank you for tuning into the Logic of God podcast. I'm Cody. 

[00:00:14] Gina: I'm Gina. 

[00:00:15] Cody: And I'm Ben. If you're returning, thank you for listening. Coming back. And if you are a new guest, welcome.

[00:00:30] Ben: I think that all of this conversation centers around one central issue and it's around what would be just, what would be just for God to do? Would it be just for him to allow someone to suffer for all of eternity for their own sins? Or would it be just for him to destroy them? 

[00:00:47] Gina: This is like the argument of the, gosh.

[00:00:49] Cody: I don't think that's centered to the argument at all. 

[00:00:52] Ben: I think that it's a big aspect of it at the very least, because If it is just for God to do it, it's what he does. But it's just for God to 

[00:01:00] Cody: do anything. Like Job and 

[00:01:01] Ben: Romans tell us that. It's not just for him to do literally anything. There are things he can't do.

[00:01:07] Gina: But this is like the argument of the atheists that are like, how could a good and loving father wipe out entire civilizations? And how could a good and loving father allow children to die of cancer and 

[00:01:19] Ben: or send someone to hell for not believing in him or something like that. Especially 

[00:01:23] Gina: if they didn't have the possibility of learning about him.

[00:01:26] Ben: I think that there are a lot of people who take the annihilist perspective and I'm not saying that you do specifically, Cody. But I think there are a lot of people who look at the idea of suffering for all eternity in hell based on human sin. And they really struggle with that idea. Being conscious and suffering for all of eternity.

[00:01:44] And truthfully, it is not a position that I like very much either. I would much of the two prefer that people stop existing after a certain point. Because that seems merciful to me. And God has infinite power. He could very easily do it. Maybe not easily like I don't want to say how difficult something is for God, but it's hypothetically possible.

[00:02:05] It's Conceivable that God could cause people to stop existing and so they wouldn't have to suffer in hell for all eternity 

[00:02:13] Gina: Whether they suffer or not the eternal aspect I think the more important focus is that they are eternally communicated from his presence, from his love, from his attention. And whether you are tormented forever or for a time is irrelevant because either way you've lost your father.

[00:02:37] Ben: No matter what, you are absolutely right in that either way you are separated from God for all of eternity. The question really is though, because there are a lot of people who struggle with this. There are a lot of Christians, especially new Christians who hear about the concept of hell and they struggle with it and they think why on earth would God Was God going to send me there if I had died prior to being a Christian?

[00:02:58] Is God going to send my brothers and sisters there? Is God going to send my parents there if they don't find out about Jesus? 

[00:03:05] Gina: Yes, and that's something Cody and I actually fought over in our early relationship. Cause I have a sibling that's transgender. And it was very much, you understand, right, that he doesn't believe in God and he is like a sweet, innocent person, but also he is guilty of sin and doesn't believe in God.

[00:03:24] So he would not go to heaven. And I was like, you're wrong. God's not cruel. He can't help it. Like I, I believed a lot of lies and it was very offensive to me. And I literally was like, I don't know if we can be in this relationship if you're going to talk about my brother like that. Spiritual maturity and growing in my faith and learning has helped me to see the truth there.

[00:03:47] But that is not an easy thing to overcome, is knowing that people in your life that you love deeply, that reject the Lord, will not be saved. 

[00:03:58] Ben: And I think there are a lot of people who would take comfort in the idea that they won't suffer for long. That eventually their suffering will cease and even if they are suffering in a sense eternal separation from god It is because they won't suffer anymore.

[00:04:11] They're just gone 

[00:04:12] Gina: But I believe like in my family's case, I believe that god is so merciful That he could reach them if they had a weak moment. So like it's their responsibility Like no, they're still living right? Like I can't be responsible for You know the salvation of other people. That's Jesus's job.

[00:04:33] And if I'm putting myself in that position where I am personally invested in the salvation of somebody else to the point where I think I control it, then I'm not allowing Jesus to do what he came here for. 

[00:04:46] Cody: No, and I think everybody here agrees, and we've talked about, we can't determine anybody's salvation in and of our own.

[00:04:52] Or 

[00:04:53] Gina: condemnation. Correct. 

[00:04:54] Cody: And we don't know their final position with God. God could reach somebody on their deathbed, that's happened. Not saying that's the case most of the time, but. 

[00:05:05] Gina: People also keep their faith secret. So Um, Yeah. In America, it's harder to contextualize that, but in other countries where it's, like, illegal to be a Christian, their relationship is entirely internal.

[00:05:18] Ben: I believe the stat is one out of every four Muslims who comes to the faith comes because of a dream that they had of Jesus. Where Jesus reveals himself to them and he calls to them now There are people who will hear that and say, okay, that's great. But why doesn't he do that to literally everybody?

[00:05:34] It's every time there's a miracle is why doesn't that happen to everybody's 

[00:05:37] Gina: merciful? He meets people where they're at and if they're in a hostile environment where Jesus isn't an option Then it makes sense that God would do everything he could to chase them down. Why else would we say he leaves the 99 and chases down the one?

[00:05:52] Ben: But why doesn't he appear in a dream to literally everybody? Like it seems like that would cause everybody to believe. I understand those people who say that at the same time, if God is reaching people through dreams and visions. Then he's doing it and he's doing something beautiful the fact that certain people he doesn't reach that way that bothers you Okay, fine, but he's doing it.

[00:06:10] Gina: One of the things that I love about human nature like There are so many billions of humans that have existed in the history of the world, right? Every single one of them is made in the image of god and there is a unique combination of traits that each one of them has and so Like when you look at the Beatitudes and you look at like the different personalities that Jesus is talking about being blessed everybody is gifted and given a different personality that still aligns with their maker with the triune God and so just because One person is given a vision and they take it at face value and suddenly love Jesus and believe in him.

[00:06:50] Like there are other people like Cody who would have that dream and pick it apart and evaluate it and then maybe even remove the meaning that God had for it because they're so analytical. Like, we can't make it a level playing field, personality wise, because it's not. 

[00:07:06] Ben: And at that point, you would be guilty of an even greater sin than if he had never reached you at all.

[00:07:11] So, yeah, we do sometimes forget, some of us as Christians, I think our Calvinist brothers listening to this would be like, oh yeah, obviously, you dummies, he's sovereign. But for those of us who aren't so Calvinist in our leanings, it's important to remember that God is ultimately sovereign. God knows, whatever it is that you're struggling with, he knows you better than you know yourself.

[00:07:32] I think there are some conversations here that are very tough to have. There are conversations about children. At what age are they accountable for the things that they do wrong? Are newborn infants sent off to hell? 

[00:07:44] Gina: Unborn infants. 

[00:07:46] Ben: Are unborn infants sent off to hell? Are seven year olds, eight year olds, nine year olds?

[00:07:51] At what point are they held accountable? What about people who've literally never heard of Jesus at all? What about 

[00:07:57] Gina: special needs? 

[00:07:58] Ben: What about people who were alive at the time of Christ, but lived on the other end of the world? What about them? They had literally no way of finding out about Jesus until long after the fact.

[00:08:10] There are individual passages to help us out here. In terms of children, how many times did Jesus, in reference to children, say, you must become like a child to enter the kingdom of God? There was a point in one of the Gospels, actually a few of the Gospels, I think, where Jesus literally took a child, brought it amongst the midst of the disciples, when they were saying, who among us is the greatest?

[00:08:30] And Jesus says, look at this kid, whoever is like you, Whoever is like this kid, 

[00:08:35] Gina: the kingdom of God, 

[00:08:36] Ben: belongs to such as these. Jesus loved children. Yes, we don't have any solid answers, 100 percent satisfactory answers to that end. Jesus loves them. You know that he does. He made that abundantly clear. 

[00:08:51] Gina: And he put special guardrails in place for protecting children in scripture.

[00:08:57] Ben: And he literally says that, Whoever is responsible for leading one of these little ones astray, it would be better off if they had a millstone tied around their neck and be thrown into the sea. Jesus loves the little children. All the little children of the world. Red and yellow, black and white, they are precious and it's, yeah, we have the song.

[00:09:17] We know. 

[00:09:18] Gina: Oh my gosh, that's Shiloh Sings, Who Built the Ark. No. No, she says no one. 

[00:09:23] Ben: Oh. 

[00:09:24] Gina: Sorry. Totally off topic. 

[00:09:26] Ben: Those Darwinian interpretations of Genesis are really getting to her. But, yeah, that isn't to say that there aren't some difficult questions that the Bible doesn't give us 100 percent satisfactory answers on.

[00:09:39] The Bible doesn't tell us what happens to people who've literally never heard about Jesus. There's one throwaway line about people who are, the gospel being preached to those who are now dead, and I wouldn't build a theology on that. And the Bible doesn't tell us specifically what happens to children, though it makes it abundantly clear that Jesus loves children.

[00:09:57] And we don't have a cutoff point signed up in the Bible about when, if there is an age of accountability and if there is, when it applies. 

[00:10:03] Gina: Listen, Jesus was teaching in the synagogue at 12. We know. 

[00:10:07] Ben: Basically. What we do know is that God is both good and just. Whatever the answers end up being when we finally get into heaven, it is enough for you to be still and know that he is God.

[00:10:21] Where were you when he laid the foundations of the earth? That he knows. He knows better than all of us. And so, when we finally get there, if he sees fit to give us an explanation, and we're not owed an explanation, if he did sit us down and explained everything, we would see that it had to be this way.

[00:10:37] And there was no better way to do it. Just because we don't know, doesn't mean that's not the truth. And that sucks. It's terrible to get that answer. None of us wants that answer. That's the biggest takeaway I've gotten from Job. 

[00:10:49] Gina: We don't like being told, because I said so. 

[00:10:52] Ben: And that's literally what, that is the moral of the story in Job.

[00:10:55] It's because I said so. Yeah, Paul says that in Romans somewhere too, basically. Yeah, but who are you, a human being, to question God? And every time I read that portion in Romans, I roll my eyes and, thanks, Paul. Crap. Come on, Paul. All that is to say, as it pertains to this specific question about whether this human soul is annihilated in hell or allowed to persist for all eternity, there are people who struggle with this particular aspect because one side seems unjust.

[00:11:26] I think a lot of people really do think, how could you possibly justify

[00:11:33] Gina: How many books in the Bible quantify how many books warn you of what your fate will be if you don't believe? 

[00:11:41] Ben: But for the people who've never read that, they don't know. 

[00:11:44] Gina: No, I know, but you look at why people are called into evangelistic ministry and, like, why people become missionaries and there are corners of the world that are forbidden to know Jesus now, but Statistically speaking, America is receiving a lot of missionaries from places that we used to go as missionaries, as Americans.

[00:12:10] So that excuse kind of flounders for me just because, We live in an age of technology, we have people listening to Catching Foxes in, like, countries in the world that are considered third world countries that really don't even have cell phone towers and running water. So it's hard to believe that it's not possible for the message of Christ to be spread pretty much everywhere.

[00:12:40] Ben: But it wasn't always that way. No, 

[00:12:41] Gina: not always. But now, like, I think we're running out of excuses. 

[00:12:46] Ben: Absolutely. At the very least in the modern times, it's tough to imagine someone who hasn't at the very least heard of Jesus. But even there are a lot of people who struggle with the idea that let's say that everyone has heard of Jesus.

[00:12:57] There are people in this world who live perfectly decent lives, who are very pleasant to everyone else around them, and who maybe go to church twice a year, but are otherwise pretty decent people. Maybe they've had sex outside of marriage. And maybe they cuss every once in a while. And maybe they cheat on their taxes maybe once or twice.

[00:13:15] But it's not as if they're going around murdering anybody. And they die, they're supposed to go to hell because they didn't really know Jesus. They didn't really confess with their mouth Jesus is Lord. But they were culturally Christian? 

[00:13:28] Cody: The sacrifice that Jesus made demands more of a response than that.

[00:13:33] So if you've heard about Jesus and what he sacrificed for you, there, there is a level of response that is demanded from that sacrifice. It's like when somebody, you're newly dating and you say, I love you for the first time. I love you usually demands a response. That response, what most people want back is I love you back, not I love you.

[00:13:58] And Gina was to say, I like you, like, 

[00:14:01] Gina: just thank you. 

[00:14:02] Cody: Yeah, just thank you. Like, that is not the same. Like, that is not what was demanded by the I love you. You're expecting something in return for that. And I, We can't not see that in the sacrifice of Jesus. 

[00:14:16] Gina: It's more than just a cross. We have this verse, I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

[00:14:22] We interpret that culturally as, I can do anything. I can walk on water. I can turn water into wine. I can perform the miracles of Jesus because Jesus did. But that's not really, I think, what it's saying. If you look at the walk that Jesus took with a tree on his back before he was crucified, to be hated and spit on and ridiculed and tortured and beaten, lots being taken for his belongings and clothing and his family and friends and followers standing by in horror or just totally denying his existence.

[00:14:54] If Jesus can go through that kind of torment, I can literally experience anything that this world can throw at me, that the devil can throw at me because he could do it in a way that made sure that my future was secure. Like, I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me because I get strength from that walk and from that crucifixion.

[00:15:15] It should not be about me elevating myself to the level of Jesus. 

[00:15:20] Ben: I believe I've mentioned this story before, but in case I haven't, or for those of you who haven't Back when my brother Jacob was alive, he was in A relationship, an adulterous relationship with a married woman. Now, this married woman's husband was aware of this relationship, and this married woman had a consensual relationship with a consensual man being my brother.

[00:15:41] Now, my family was very aware of this, and we were aware of the fact that it was a very unhealthy, not good relationship. Modern culture would say that because it's consensual and everyone's aware of it, and the husband's not being lied to, and he's allowing it to happen, that obviously, There's nothing wrong there.

[00:15:57] Modern culture would say, that's just fine. Maybe there are some consequences somewhere in there, but overall, it's not the worst thing ever. However, it would, it was something that drove a wedge between him and me and my parents. And at first we were very harsh and it would come up a lot and there would be a lot of very angry words said.

[00:16:17] Eventually that changed and there was a very different atmosphere. And eventually my father, who was very adamantly against it, started to have a much better relationship with me. With my brother Jacob and they patched things up, but no matter how much we patched up that Relationship drove a wedge between us and it was not possible to get past it And it was a wedge that drove us farther and farther apart despite the fact that we repeatedly told him that we loved him and he Knew it And he loved us, but that wedge just eventually forced us to the point where he left and he went up to Daytona Beach, and that was where he died.

[00:16:54] Despite the fact that we loved him, despite the fact that God loved him. Despite the fact that otherwise he would have seemed like a perfectly wonderful guy, and there was not a person who had a bad word to say about him at his funeral. Believe me, I get it. But, sin is sin. It's a horrible thing. It's a corrupting thing.

[00:17:09] It will tear apart your life. And to say that just because you don't see the depth of destruction that your sin causes to Christ himself, to God himself, you don't see the pain that causes, you don't see the furthest reaching issues. It doesn't mean it's not there. And yeah, so what? You haven't killed somebody.

[00:17:28] How many times have you wanted to kill somebody? How many times have you had the opportunity to do it? Or how many times has it made sense? 

[00:17:35] Gina: How many times have you used your mouth for the power of death? Like, we know our voice has the power of life and death. Like, it's not just murder because you killed their body.

[00:17:47] You can kill their spirit. 

[00:17:48] Ben: Absolutely. You don't know what effect your words have had. And I have not once, ever in my entire life, been a pirate. I have not gone on the high seas and killed people for gold on the high seas. Do I get virtue points for that? No. I have never been in a position where that would have been reasonable for me.

[00:18:11] I have never killed someone for food. That does not make me virtuous. There are people who were starving during the Second World War in France, in Germany. There were people who had reason to kill for food and didn't. There were people who would have been killed for hiding somebody. Hiding a Jew. Hiding a gypsy.

[00:18:29] Hiding somebody who, according to the German government, deserved death. Those people are virtuous for that. I've never hunted anybody. I never had a reason to. Why would I be counted as righteous for something I haven't done because I had no reason to? People look at virtue today and say I haven't done anything wrong.

[00:18:47] Why would you have needed or wanted to do any of those things? You're not virtuous because you haven't done those things. You haven't been tempted to. But what in your life have you been tempted to do that is wrong and you've said yes? What standard do you use for other people that you don't use for yourself?

[00:19:03] That's what the Bible warns. The standard you use for others will be used against you. If you don't want to use God's standard, fine. He'll use yours. But you gotta be careful because it's the one you're using for someone else. 

[00:19:15] Gina: And it's gonna land you in eternal separation, destruction, torment, whatever camp you're in.

[00:19:21] Either way, you lose God. You lose your eternity with God in a place where there's no weeping and no sickness and no death. We had this conversation like during like our little dinner about how like it's really hard to have this conversation with a new believer because You don't want to influence them to fear going to hell so much that their relationship with God is solely based on that Because how can you really have faith and love?

[00:19:47] When you're just basically like, I'm going to check the boxes so that I don't go there. 

[00:19:52] Ben: And there have been Christians I've heard of who started from the position of, I don't want to go to hell. That can be something that sends you in the right direction, but it can't be the reason you love. But yeah, I do think that there are a lot of people who use that fire and brimstone, like the whole, if you don't, if you don't believe you don't love, you're going to die and suffer eternal torment.

[00:20:13] Gina: It's sad because like I was not raised Christian, so. My experiences as an adult, but it seems like there's two camps in like the American Protestant kind of maybe megachurch scene where it's either, we don't talk about hell or we're going to preach it like in your face. And I haven't really seen it in between.

[00:20:40] And I think that conversation is really lacking because without a solid understanding of God's expectations. And I think that And the kind of full life, like a lot of people think, Oh, if I become a Christian, it's so limiting because then I can't do the things that the Bible forbids, but really it's not limiting.

[00:20:58] And I think we need more. pastors and more teachers explaining the boundaries and the benefits from a perspective of new believers because it's very overwhelming and it can cause defensiveness to have the fire and brimstone lecture, but then it also creates this like Really big lack of like morality when you don't talk about it at all.

[00:21:22] Ben: I think there are a lot of people who view evil vices as Options as freedom and to become a Christian is to leave your freedom behind in reality The Bible treats evil much more as a drug if you're a person who is addicted to a drug and you were thinking I can't get off the drug because then I won't be free Free to do what?

[00:21:49] Those of us who live in sin are slaves to it. Your sin is the thing that's determining what you do, how you think, the way you spend your time. To become a slave to Christ is oddly enough to become free. To become a slave to responsibility, to a higher calling, is to not only have greater understanding for the evil you're rejecting, but to finally understand the alternative.

[00:22:12] And that doesn't mean you'll never turn back to evil. That's part of the choice that you now have. Suddenly you're not a slave to sin, but you can turn back to it. It's not good that you do it, but suddenly you have much more of a choice. It's what Paul talks about, where once he understands evil, he was much more capable of it, and he understood the damage of even the most minute evil.

[00:22:33] Gina: It's really hard for me. Once you wake up to sin, it's really hard to go back to sleep. There were so many things I had wrong before I knew Jesus. And it doesn't make me more virtuous because I'll have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and I still sin. There are character flaws that I have. I'm very judgmental.

[00:22:51] I'm very quick to get angry. I have road rage, and it is what it is. But, like, I have to take those thoughts captive and fight with myself. Like, I'm at war with my flesh. And that's very biblical. And we know that, you know, The world is going to hate us and the devil is going to come after us. There's so many things that we know about following Jesus.

[00:23:15] So even though the burden is easy and the yoke is light and all of that, it's not easy to be a Christian. It's the harder option, but ultimately the payout is greater and the confidence in yourself and the love that you have that is from Christ is so much more meaningful. Like it is truly transformative kind of a love.

[00:23:37] And the way that you look at other people and the way that you look at the world and creation and God and like it is worth it to make that decision. 

[00:23:46] Ben: And I think in many ways, the reason Jesus says that his yoke is light is because the yoke that is not his is unbearable. It isn't that it isn't difficult to be a Christian.

[00:23:58] It's that if you live a life without purpose, you can't live. 

[00:24:01] Gina: He ain't talking about here. 

[00:24:03] Ben: So last episode, Cody went into his opinion on conditional immortality. We had a little bit of a back and forth. And I went into my, I don't even know that I'd say my opinion necessarily, but the direction I've leaned for most of my life, which is the more traditional view of hell.

[00:24:18] But Gina actually has her own kind of interpretation of things. Not necessarily of just hell, but I think more the lake of fire and how that's going to come about. 

[00:24:28] Gina: Yeah, so Cody and I have spent a lot of time in our marriage like studying together and just, I don't know, like I've looked over his shoulder and absorbed information and There's no real, uh, like explanation or source for why I believe this, like I can't back it up with factual information or defined scripture.

[00:24:48] There's some stuff in Apocrypha that kind of aligns with it, but there's nothing that I've really ever found in the Bible that's confirmed or denied what I think, other than just a couple of short verses that could be taken in pretty much like five different directions. So it's hard for me to justify.

[00:25:07] My view, but my active imagination likes to have this view. 

[00:25:13] Cody: So what's the view? 

[00:25:14] Gina: Just that, like, when Jesus comes back, people will be judged. And those who are not saved will burn and suffer. And it will be here on Earth. I don't necessarily think that there's, like, another place called Hell. I feel like the soul might go somewhere else, but, like, the burning portion, I think, is here.

[00:25:35] If that makes sense. 

[00:25:37] Cody: So once the earth, or would it be like as soon as everything's burned up, your soul like is now that's the outer darkness? 

[00:25:45] Gina: Kind of, yeah. Okay. It's hard to explain, but. 

[00:25:49] Ben: So what's your basis for this? 

[00:25:51] Gina: So, basically, Cody did this revelation study with his men's group last year and we went to Israel and I started doing the revelation study in February and we went to Israel in March and one of the things that stood out to me that the pastor who was leading the study on the YouTube videos talked about, which was Dan Plourd, talked about the process of the burning and revelation, and to me, it didn't sound like, There was like a transportation happening that some people think like they go to hell, but it seemed like to me they stay here.

[00:26:30] It talks a lot about the current earth burning up and going away. 

[00:26:34] Ben: So where does it discuss that? 

[00:26:35] Gina: Isaiah 51 6 says lift up your eyes to the heavens and look at the earth beneath for the heavens vanish like smoke the earth will wear out like a garment and they who dwell in it will die in like manner but my salvation will be forever and my righteousness will never be dismayed.

[00:26:52] Also in two Peter three 10 it says, but the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved. And the earth and the works that are on it will be exposed. Talks about the earth passing away a lot in Revelation and in Matthew 24 35, heaven and Earth will pass away.

[00:27:14] But my words will never pass away. I don't know if that answers it. 

[00:27:19] Ben: Definitely there are individual pieces there that you could say allude to Potentially what you're talking about the earth itself becoming hell eventually 

[00:27:29] Gina: just because of the like way it lines up with Like scriptures talking about the earth burning up and passing away and ceasing to exist and if the earth is going to burn It makes sense to me that those who are being judged on the earth will also burn with it.

[00:27:44] Ben: I think there are a lot of people who take the position that there's, you know, the new Jerusalem that is created and then that would be put on the current earth. But this isn't the first time that Gina's actually brought up this opinion. We've talked about it a bit and I've done some ruminating on it.

[00:28:01] And honestly, while initially I was dismissive, which is one of the reasons why we're doing this I really shouldn't have been because Some of the scripture that you actually brought up is a bit more firmly in your court than I think you may believe. For instance, you talked about 2 Peter, uh, I'll read verses 9, 10, and 11, real quick here.

[00:28:23] Gina: Okay. 

[00:28:24] Ben: The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead, he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar, and the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.

[00:28:46] Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives. He reaffirms what you read in verse 10 in verse 11. Since everything will be destroyed, he's not being poetic there. He's literally saying that everything on earth and in heaven is going to be destroyed.

[00:29:07] And this is something that I never really noticed being mentioned a few times in the New Testament. It says the world in its current form is passing away. They use that terminology a few times. I don't remember exactly where. 

[00:29:20] Gina: There's Matthew 24, 35 talks about that. Revelation 21, 1 talks about that. And then 65, Isaiah 65, 17 talks about that.

[00:29:32] Ben: And I think the traditional view interprets that to mean, yes, like, eventually everything on earth is going to be different. Like, the events in Revelation will devastate the earth, everything is going to be destroyed, like the whole population is going 

[00:29:48] Gina: And I'm not good at breaking down Revelation by any means.

[00:29:51] Like I'm not, it's not easy for me to articulate end times or hell because I feared studying it until about like 18 months ago. I'm not super confident in explaining it, but I do feel like it's valid. It's just hard for me to 

[00:30:08] Cody: Yeah, there's a lot, like Revelation 21. 1, Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.

[00:30:18] Then there's Isaiah 65. 17, For behold, I create a new heavens and a new earth, and the former things shall not be remembered or come into mind. 

[00:30:28] Ben: Yeah. So, I don't think you give yourself quite enough credit here, Gina. I think that you had a pretty strong intuition on this. And I think that intuition is, I don't know if it's right, honestly, but there's a lot in the Bible that makes it clear that what exists right now will pass away.

[00:30:44] It's going to be gone and something new is going to take its place. And so the question is what happens to that old that passes away? It does make sense that the old that passes away is going to be the lake of fire because we're told that it's going to be destroyed by fire. 

[00:31:00] Gina: It just has made sense to me.

[00:31:02] We're the Logic of God podcast. It's logical to me that it's all one in the same because it's not clear that to me, it's not clear that, that it would be two separate things. 

[00:31:15] Ben: So is there anything more that you were basing this off of? Cause as it turns out, there's a decent amount of Bible to back it up.

[00:31:20] Gina: Yeah. There's some stuff in like extra biblical texts, which again, I'm not extremely well versed in, but Cody has read a couple of things to me from Enoch and then reading and Siroc, if that's how you pronounce it. But reading it in Sirach, it talks a little bit about it as well. So knowing the context of when things were written and how reliable they might be is helpful for reading extra biblical texts and it's not gospel, but it is helpful for me like it feels affirming.

[00:31:55] Cody: In the Sirach is Deuterocanon, so like it's in some Christian Bibles, i. e. the Catholics

[00:32:06] Maybe 

[00:32:07] Ben: the Syrian Church of the East? 

[00:32:08] Cody: There's a few others, and basically anybody that's not a Protestant, I think, actually has that in there. 

[00:32:16] Gina: It's a really cool book. 

[00:32:17] Cody: And it's not canon, but It's a reliable source in the sense, like, it's not, the pseudepigrapha is given a bad name because usually, um, that's somebody's trying to place somebody else's name on the book to give themselves more weight in their writing to catch on faster.

[00:32:39] But Sirach, the Wisdom of Bensirah, he's writing to the Hellenistic Jews at the time. If he's coming to those thoughts, like, it reaffirms that you're not the first one to come up with this, and it limits the crazy that's there that you could think. Like, you're not alone in your thinking. 

[00:32:58] Gina: If I think about end times in the crazy layers, it's overwhelming.

[00:33:05] And this is where my brain took me. It's helped me to stabilize a little bit in processing it because it's not, it's like heavy and dark to think about people like burning and, um, Being judged and all of that 

[00:33:19] Ben: and it's tough to imagine God completely destroying this world But then on the exact same one Rebuilding it And there are individual elements about the New Jerusalem that don't make much sense if you view them in the context of the same heaven and same earth, like the same universe that we exist in right now being the place where the New Jerusalem is.

[00:33:43] It's like the portion in Revelation that talks about how there will be no sun, God is going to be the light. Okay, so what happens to the Sun? Is he gonna explode it? Is it not gonna matter? Is he basically just saying it doesn't matter, there's not gonna be a day or night, because he'll just be there all the time, but the Sun's still gonna be there?

[00:34:00] Like, what's the reasoning behind that? And it does make sense if we're going to a new place that's specifically made around this idea that God is the true center of our universe, like physically and spiritually. That does make sense. Now that doesn't mean that because it makes sense, it's true. But like I said before, I was dismissive of your opinion on this originally, because it's outside of the standard interpretation.

[00:34:27] And I think it's still a valid interpretation. And the more I think about it, the more I lean towards it possibly being right. 

[00:34:35] Gina: Thanks. 

[00:34:36] Ben: No problem. 

[00:34:37] Gina: No, honestly, it's hard because like I'm a first generation Christian. I wasn't, we were just talking about this. Like I wasn't raised in the church the way that you guys were in.

[00:34:45] My foundation isn't as deep. And so I come to certain conclusions like just reading and it's helpful. But then also it's, is that true? And I've had to like process with Cody and with trusted friends and see what I think. After I've put some study into it, but being newer in my faith, it's hard not to have like a weird imagination sometimes, but I'm glad I'm, I feel validated and after studying, I felt validated and like it helped me to feel like secure and like the Holy Spirit helping me interpret whether it's right or wrong ultimately is out of my control.

[00:35:26] But you know the thing that makes me sad about the earth like burning up and passing away is like there's so many beautiful parts of creation I've never gotten to see and I want to, I just want to. 

[00:35:38] Cody: But he's gonna make it new and better. 

[00:35:40] Gina: Yeah, he will, but is it gonna be the same? We don't know. 

[00:35:44] Ben: There's an interesting article related to this that C.

[00:35:47] S. Lewis once wrote. There's a lot of people who, when thinking about the rapture, think, I sure hope it doesn't come now. I've got so many things I want to do. Yes, you are definitely going to write that novel that you've always been planning on doing but never have, and maybe compose that symphony that you definitely are never going to do.

[00:36:07] Like, the glory that's waiting for us in heaven is infinitely greater than what we have here, and the new world that takes the place of this old one is infinitely greater in beauty and splendor than the one we have now. Yeah, it's tough because there is absolutely beauty in the world we have now. And there are echoes of the grandeur of creation that we had at the start that are still here.

[00:36:31] I hold to a literal view of Genesis and the things that I've seen from guys like Dr. Kurt Weiss and Dr. Steve Austin and Dr. Andrew Snelling. It reveals an earth now that's still recovering from the flood. Like, you have the tops of mountains that have been sheared off and vibrated 50 miles away from their bases, and the earth still settling and groaning because of this punishment that was once enacted through it.

[00:36:57] There's beauty in that, but at the same time, the earth as it exists now is not anything like what it once was when God made it good. 

[00:37:04] Gina: It's still so pretty. 

[00:37:05] Ben: It is. There's a lot of beauty in it still. 

[00:37:08] Cody: Yeah, but how much more beautiful was it? I was about to say beautiful er. 

[00:37:13] Gina: Listen, we live in a fallen world.

[00:37:16] Ben: That we do. But all that is to say, Gina, I feel like There is a tendency for people who've been Christians for a long time to shut down questions that come their way that, that seem to question fundamental assumptions that we have. The whole reason that we laid out the five core assumptions is because that's what That's the mere Christianity.

[00:37:39] That's the base level that we all need to agree on before we continue forward in our discussion on Christ. And I think that all of us take a lot more than those base assumptions, especially those of us who grew up in Christianity. 

[00:37:51] Gina: Yeah, because you get Other people's opinions like imposed on you. And when you're young and like impressionable, it's easy, especially for the younger generations.

[00:38:02] Now it's easy just to take someone's word for it. And so a lot of what we've formed are, you know, theology on as Christians now is more like what pastors and famous people have said or acted in movies or done on TV than it is actual scripture. And so knowing that I got where I got from just study, like reading the Bible, asking my husband, who's wiser than me, and then just, you know, looking at it objectively without any other input.

[00:38:33] Like, it brought me to that conclusion where I feel comfortable. 

[00:38:38] Cody: And it's off topic, but something I've struggled with in, you know, approaching scripture. Are we supposed to approach scripture with presuppositions that we have? If we're truly going to be doing good hermeneutics and exegesis, like, are we supposed to bring our presuppositions to that text?

[00:38:58] And, uh, the obvious answer is no to that, but it is very hard to remove yourself from that situation. 

[00:39:05] Ben: There have to be some presuppositions that you take in. Like, the idea that you can test Scripture. How do you test Scripture? You have to use some measure of reason. And reason, while it comes from God, is not explicitly something you get from the Bible.

[00:39:22] Reason is something that you have to use that is yours and you apply it to the Bible now your reason can be faulty But you can still test the Bible with it and you can learn the faults in your own reason and logic That's part of life experience But the point is that there are instances in scripture where it says that Jesus proved from the scriptures It was proved proof Involves reason and explanation and understanding.

[00:39:48] And all of those things are things that people who aren't Christians have. And it's one of the ways by which we bring people into the faith. Through appealing to reason and understanding and logic. But there's also appeals to emotion. And we have to also be able to understand emotion to understand the Bible.

[00:40:04] Because there are appeals to emotion in the Bible. There are very emotional, beautiful, and terrifying things that happen. So, obviously there are things that we take into consideration. our exegesis and our hermeneutics, but at the same time, we have to be careful what it is that we take in because I think sometimes we take doctrine automatically as read before we even start seeing if it's true.

[00:40:28] Gina: It's like Cody and I were reading Galatians. And all of this stuff, like we were reading together and all of this stuff, we were like, I didn't know that. I didn't realize that Paul said things that we didn't realize Paul had ever would have ever said, or would have even been in the Bible. Like, He was a tough cookie.

[00:40:49] And I think sometimes we go in with our presuppositions or like whatever sermon we heard last and that's what we believe. And then suddenly we're studying and all these details come. And so it's not necessarily the foundational presupposition that's the issue. It's the things that start coming to you through the Holy Spirit through reading and interpreting and studying.

[00:41:12] Not just reading but studying and then you get like these details which gives you a much richer picture than just some sermon you heard 

[00:41:19] Ben: And I think there are a lot of Christians today who have something of a simplicity bias like the simplest you can make The text in the Bible is probably where the truth is.

[00:41:31] So there's a lot of consolidation of these different terms. You have Hades and Sheol and the abyss and the lake of fire. And we consolidate all of those into one thing because it's the simplest. And it feels like there's no need for anything else. It's just, okay. The ultimate place of punishment, obviously that's hell and bad people go to hell.

[00:41:53] Well, eventually 

[00:41:54] Gina: the idea, I don't need to worry about that. Cause that doesn't affect me. 

[00:41:58] Ben: That is so common. It's, sadly, extremely common. I can't believe how often I hear that. It doesn't matter. I don't read the Old Testament. It doesn't affect me. And I don't care about Revelation because it doesn't affect me.

[00:42:11] Like, it'll happen no matter what. Why does it matter? 

[00:42:13] Gina: But you learn so much about God. Like his character. Cause if you're really chasing a relationship, like we talked about in the last episode we recorded, which is actually our next episode, we talked about the hunger for knowledge and like what we use it for and what.

[00:42:31] Our actual like pursuit is And if your pursuit is knowledge of the lord so that you have a relationship with the lord You have to read that stuff 

[00:42:41] Cody: it's hard like people look at the Old testament and it's hard to connect with a lot of it. It takes a lot more effort because a lot of study now, and people are realizing more and more the importance of getting into not just a context of scripture, but like a historical and cultural context of what those people were thinking and what these idioms or different ways of expressing situations in the Old Testament.

[00:43:13] had a much bigger impact because it was directly speaking to how they view the world, how the ancient person 

[00:43:20] Ben: sees the world. And I think that there is a general attitude amongst modern people when looking at people in the past and we think they were just stupid. 

[00:43:28] Cody: Oh, yeah. Doesn't make sense. I would have never done that.

[00:43:31] I found myself doing that. The Israelites going through all of the ups and downs. Oh, they're stupid. I would have never turned away from God and same with the disciples. These guys were 

[00:43:42] Ben: thick. 

[00:43:43] Gina: Jesus is right there 

[00:43:44] Cody: telling. Then you're like, Oh crap. I do that all the time. 

[00:43:48] Gina: Yeah. But they're still stupid.

[00:43:50] Cody: Aren't we all? 

[00:43:51] Gina: I get so mad reading about the Israelites. 

[00:43:55] Cody: Yeah. They didn't have iPhones. So they were definitely. Stupid. 

[00:43:58] Gina: We are programmed to be stupid in our era because, like, you Google something and it tells you the truth and then you can trust it and that's it. But thousands of years ago, like, you had to memorize scripture, like, all of it, if you wanted to know it and share it.

[00:44:15] and teach it. 

[00:44:16] Cody: Common practice as a Jewish person was to study. 

[00:44:21] Gina: And now we're like standing up on a stage with our 11 year old. We don't have an 11 year old, but this is an example. I know John 3, 16. I know Jeremiah 29, 11. And we're so proud of that. And that has nothing to do with the general meaning of scripture.

[00:44:36] Ben: When I'm sure someone is listening to this and thinking, okay, but you three, are you guys all, you memorize all the scripture and no, it's not that we have. an amazing command of knowledge of scripture. 

[00:44:47] Gina: Hardly. For me, no. 

[00:44:49] Ben: It's again, going back to, I love quoting C. S. Lewis. Everyone loves quoting. C. S. Lewis himself would have also agreed he was not a master of scripture, but he wrote an analysis of the Psalms, and in the analysis of the Psalms, he says there's a lot of value.

[00:45:02] In people who are learning, sharing the things that they've learned. And he was still a fairly new Christian at that point. He came to Christ very late in his life. But he accomplished an insane amount in the fairly short time that he was a Christian. And so for us, again, going back to your view on health, Gina, it's very humbling.

[00:45:22] The fact that I can learn things from someone who has not been studying this nearly as long as I have. Seriously, it's not to say this in an insulting way. The Bible says God uses the foolish things of this world to shame the wise. That doesn't mean that I think that you're foolish or anything, but it's that people who don't have extensive exposure or knowledge about the Bible, God can use those people to teach the people who have all of that, who have every advantage and should know, but don't.

[00:45:50] And that's a beautiful thing. It's an example of the power of Christ, and it's wonderful. And I hope that going forward, both I and the Church generally don't try to squash that. Every time we hear a question, To something that we think is fundamental, but really doesn't have to be. 

[00:46:05] Cody: Yeah. 

[00:46:05] Gina: There's a lot of times where Cody's, I need to know.

[00:46:09] And I'm like, but it doesn't change anything. 

[00:46:12] Cody: No, it doesn't, but 

[00:46:14] Ben: I still need to know. The Bible talks about these things for a reason. Like going back to what we were saying earlier with some people just saying, I don't need to know. I'm not going to hell. I don't need to know. The truth is that the more I've looked into this and the more we've talked about it, the more I see that the potential answers to these questions can help a lot of people who struggle coming to the Lord because they see all the evil happening in the world and they hear the idea that they go straight to hell.

[00:46:43] And they think, why? Why would God do that? If he loves me, why would he do any of this? And the truth is that a lot of the views on these different subjects, hell especially, as it turns out, it was a lot more complicated than I ever thought. I always thought for the longest time, it's just the one place.

[00:47:00] And then you guys talk to me about it potentially being more than one place. And I thought that's dumb because I have this, the simplicity bias, simplest thing is the easiest thing. And also it doesn't affect me. But it could be that there's more than one place for a very good reason, and we'll go into that.

[00:47:17] Gina: Thank you so much for taking the time to listen to our podcast today. If you liked what you heard, please feel free to subscribe and share and leave a positive review. And if you would like to connect with us on social media, you can do so on Instagram and Facebook at the logic of God. You can also send us an email at main.

[00:47:36] thelogicofgod at gmail. com. Thanks again for listening, we hope you have a great day.

What is Hell? Part 1

[00:00:00] Cody: Hi, thank you for tuning in to the Logic of God podcast. I'm Cody. 

[00:00:19] Gina: I'm Gina. 

[00:00:19] Cody: And I'm Ben. You're returning. Thank you for coming back. And if you are a new guest, welcome.

[00:00:34] Ben: So after covering a fairly non controversial subject like heaven, we figured we'd go into a very controversial subject, which is hell. Hell. 

[00:00:43] Gina: Hell. It doesn't exist. So 

[00:00:47] Ben: we'll get to that. 

[00:00:49] Cody: I can't believe you just said that on the podcast. It's H E double hockey sticks. 

[00:00:53] Ben: Oh, yes. Yeah. There are some people who will get very offended if you even call it hell.

[00:00:57] If you say its name, there are some folks who say it doesn't exist. There are some people who are very adamant that it does exist and are very angry with you if you don't get it right. Bearing all that in mind, in that spirit, we sit forward. 

[00:01:09] Cody: Or all of those. 

[00:01:10] Ben: Yes. We will address everything and more. First question, what exactly is hell?

[00:01:16] What do we mean when we say hell? 

[00:01:19] Gina: The Oxford definition is a place regarded in various religions as a spiritual realm of evil and suffering, often traditionally depicted as a place of perpetual fire beneath the earth where the wicked are punished after death. However, Webster says, a nether below world in which the dead continue to exist.

[00:01:44] The nether realm of the devil and the demons in which condemned people suffer everlasting punishment. 

[00:01:51] Ben: So already we're getting labeled on hell and that both those definitions mention it being a nether or a below place, as in below the earth. Is hell like a physical place? 

[00:02:03] Gina: I don't know how to answer that.

[00:02:05] I don't like, I don't like Why me? Cody, go. One, two, three, go. 

[00:02:09] Cody: Traditional Christianity would say yes. You 

[00:02:11] Gina: Okay. 

[00:02:12] Cody: Okay. Is that satisfactory? 

[00:02:14] Ben: Not particularly, but we can go into more, we can go into more detail a bit later because there is the more common interpretation, like the modern interpretation, because both those definitions are okay, but they're fairly political in that they're trying to hold their hands back and say, look, everybody believes in some kind of hell.

[00:02:33] It's just some kind of general nether below place where bad people go. As far as, like, the modern depiction or understanding, like, whenever you see a TV show and someone goes to hell, what you kinda get is something that's a derivative of something from Dante's Inferno. And a lot of modern depictions of hell draw heavily from Dante's Inferno.

[00:02:54] Everyone's probably heard Dante's Inferno somewhere before. Essentially, in Dante's Inferno, There's nine circles of hell, and the punishments at each level get worse as you go down. Each person that is sent to hell is sorted into a different layer based on the sin, Um, this version of hell is not based in the Bible at all.

[00:03:13] It actually draws a lot more from Aristotle's views on the nature of evil and the nature of the soul. And the upper levels are dedicated to animalistic desire or lack of knowledge, where your sins, you don't, you commit them less with understanding and more from impulse. And the lower levels are crimes dedicated to intent and understanding.

[00:03:33] So like at the top level. Which would be for the least of the people going to hell. There would be Limbo. Which is where people go who never heard of Christ. Then the second level is Lust. Third level is Gluttony. Fourth level is Greed. Fifth level is Anger. Sixth level is Heresy. I really 

[00:03:50] Gina: thought that was Hershey.

[00:03:52] Ben: Hershey. It's Hershey. 

[00:03:54] Gina: It's sinful. 

[00:03:55] Ben: Jaina, it's Hershey. Your honor, I say Hershey. Yeah, seventh level is Violence. Eighth level is fraud, and ninth level is treachery. You'd think there'd be a lot more bad things for people to do than just those nine, but 

[00:04:10] Cody: Why is fraud worse than violence? 

[00:04:13] Ben: Yeah, so, the layout of hell and the nine circles, one, like we said, it is not biblical in any way.

[00:04:21] I do think, though, it's interesting trying to set up Hell in terms of punishing crimes of intent versus crimes of passion, or just things where your animalistic desire would drive you to do something. Do you guys feel like there's anything in that, or is that just completely off base? 

[00:04:38] Gina: I mean, we serve a jealous God.

[00:04:40] We serve a wrathful God. So there's certain human emotions that I think some people mistake for sinful behavior that's actually righteous behavior. So like a crime of passion, depending on the circumstances, I could see somebody being technically biblically justified, thou shall not murder or covet or you have the 10 commandments to give you a really good guideline for how to behave within passion.

[00:05:08] Ben: But do you think there's something to be said for worse punishments meted out for people who live their lives committing crimes that are with understanding of what they're doing versus people who don't understand what they're doing? 

[00:05:20] Gina: Are you asking me if I believe that they deserve a greater punishment from God?

[00:05:24] Ben: Sure. We can go with that. 

[00:05:26] Gina: I'm just trying to understand. 

[00:05:28] Ben: So in the concept set forward in Dante's Inferno, it's that at the highest levels of hell, there are people who are sent to hell, but they, they're there because they don't know Jesus. And it's just they were never told. And so there are plenty of people who we would generally consider to be decent people.

[00:05:43] And their only crime, according to Dante's Inferno, is that they just didn't know Jesus. And then as you go further down into hell, it's people who really legitimately did a lot of things wrong. Now, obviously, you can't sort people into these different layers of hell as listed because there's people who, like, everybody has done more than one thing wrong.

[00:06:02] It's not as if one person has literally just committed one act of anger, one act of heresy, one act of violence, and one act of fraud. 

[00:06:09] Gina: That's why there's treachery, because it's like the catch all for the worst of the worst. 

[00:06:12] Ben: So 

[00:06:13] Cody: basically, it should be one 

[00:06:14] Ben: to Hitler. 

[00:06:15] Gina: Oh, Cody. He had to bring it up. 

[00:06:18] Ben: Yeah, that does still beg the question.

[00:06:20] Do you think that people deserve to be punished eternally differently based on the different amounts of evil they've done? 

[00:06:28] Gina: I can't make that assessment. That's up to God. I don't know if I believe that is a possibility or a truth for hell. I struggle with that, but I take this side of, I don't know. 

[00:06:41] Cody: I think there could be an argument made biblically that there is worse punishment for your actions.

[00:06:47] We're going to be judged off of our actions. So if somebody has better actions than the other, I could see a reason to punish one more than the other. 

[00:06:56] Ben: The question is, does the Bible actually show different punishment in hell? 

[00:07:02] Cody: No, not in hell. I do think it shows different punishment in earthly. 

[00:07:07] Gina: The descriptions of what will happen in hell for Satan versus for people, those are two different things.

[00:07:15] But I don't know that for people, it's on different levels. We'll get to 

[00:07:19] Ben: that. And I absolutely agree with you in that the devil, um, It seems was the most capable and knew the most about evil unless he's held to the highest level of account. And that does make a lot of sense. In terms of what Dante's Inferno puts forward where not there are nine circles of hell and whatnot.

[00:07:35] No, I don't buy that. No. 

[00:07:37] Cody: No. Yeah, I 

[00:07:37] Ben: don't agree with the Dante's 

[00:07:39] Cody: Inferno. 

[00:07:39] Ben: Yes. However, I do think that there is definitely biblical basis for saying that If you go into leadership, for instance, the Bible makes it abundantly clear that it's something you shouldn't do half heartedly or without a sufficient thought, because if you teach people wrong, you will make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.

[00:08:00] Gina: Yeah, there is a lot of scripture about like teachers and leaders and people who cause children to stumble. So I could see there being some foundation for it, but it's definitely not organized the way that this Dante's Inferno book is. 

[00:08:15] Ben: Yeah, if anything, I would say there's a stronger case to be made that people will be judged and then punished.

[00:08:22] The punishment is ultimately the same. It's hell. But the discernment of whether or not you will be sent there is gonna be different for leaders versus the average person who maybe doesn't know that much or understand. Now, I'm not a hundred percent married to that concept, but there are parts of the Bible that talk about, that talk about how leaders will be judged more harshly, and whether that judgment is upon judgment day or just God's everyday judgment where he decides to punish you to try to straighten you out, that's a bit up in the air, and I can see either way, and I don't want to give people the impression that I'm saying that, no, you can lose your salvation because you said the wrong thing as a leader, and God is going to throw you into hell.

[00:09:02] Gina: There is the verse. In John chapter 9, verse 41, he talks about the Pharisees and their level of guilt. And Jesus says, if you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin, but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains. So that's another example of knowing that there is some level, like a higher level of accountability for somebody in a position of like teaching or leadership.

[00:09:27] But yeah. Then also, on the flip side, the innocence of guilt because of not knowing. Mm hmm. Yeah, and there's some, 

[00:09:36] Cody: I can't remember which one of the Johns it's in, one of his letters talks about the sins that, you know, lead to death versus other sins. 

[00:09:46] Gina: That's, Deuteronomy had that. Like the whole list of all of the types of sin that God condemns people for 

[00:09:53] Ben: and it's definitely in the book of James where it Talks about sins that lead to death.

[00:09:57] I had said before in one of our previous episodes. That was Paul. That was actually James But yeah, the tough thing there is the Bible absolutely does say there is a higher standard for leaders Question is does that standard apply to God's judgment? In the hereafter, like on Judgment Day, when we're all judged together, or is it judgment that is put on us during our life, where God judges each of our individual actions and decides if we need correction?

[00:10:24] Gina: Both. 

[00:10:25] Ben: I think that it's probably fair. At the very least, we know that it's while we live. But it could very well be that God will judge you harsher at Judgment Day, because you decided you wanted to be a teacher and lead people astray, and you should have known better. 

[00:10:38] Gina: Jude talks a lot about false teachers and how we need to snatch people from the fire of false teachers.

[00:10:46] Absolutely. I don't think that alliteration is there for no reason. 

[00:10:49] Ben: So those are a bunch of kind of secular references for hell. What does the Bible actually say about hell? 

[00:10:56] Cody: A lot. It 

[00:10:57] Ben: speaks about it more than 

[00:10:58] Cody: heaven. 

[00:10:59] Ben: Which should tell you something. So yeah, as far as the Old Testament goes, I couldn't find a lot of direct references to hell.

[00:11:06] However, there is an allusion to hell in Daniel chapter 12 verse 2. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 

[00:11:19] Gina: I think it's worth, and you know more about it than I do, but I think it's worth noting that the Jews previous to Jesus didn't believe in an afterlife necessarily.

[00:11:29] Cody: Yeah, and you saw that in the New Testament, the Sadducees and Pharisees, like the Pharisees believed in a bodily resurrection, the Sadducees did not. But there's not a whole lot of reference to resurrection in the Old Testament either. Most of their depiction is more like Sheol type mentality. 

[00:11:51] Ben: Yeah, I think it's safe to say C.

[00:11:54] S. Lewis wrote some about this in one of his works. I can't remember exactly which one, but he talked about how The people in the Old Testament didn't really have much of a conception for heaven or hell. They very clearly believed that heaven existed. Like we see mention of that in Ezekiel. But the thing is that they only believed what God revealed to them.

[00:12:12] And so if God hadn't said anything about hell or heaven up to that point, they had no way of knowing. And honestly, that's one of the reasons why I believe in the Bible as much as I do, because it doesn't tell you something it doesn't know. Or at the very least, the people writing it don't say more than they knew at the time.

[00:12:26] They say only what God revealed to them. And so you're right. Exactly. Cody. What is that? By the time of Christ, there were people who were like, God is immortal and eternal. And so there's probably a spirit within us and we probably go to heaven because there are angels and whatnot. And there are Sadducees who said, no, there's none of that because we don't have any evidence of that.

[00:12:45] And there is some evidence. There's obviously David who says about his son who dies, I will go to him. He will not come to me. And there's reference that Solomon makes. Where he says, who knows if the spirits of men go into the air and the spirits of dogs go into the ground. There's a bunch of musings of various people, but nothing much that's concrete at the very least in the Old Testament.

[00:13:07] It's not until we get to the New Testament where we see much more solid revelation about both heaven and hell. Because Jesus tells us. So yeah, going from the Old Testament, and again, there's a little bit of reference in there. Daniel at the very least tells us that there is going to be everlasting punishment.

[00:13:26] But moving on to Matthew, chapter 8, verses 11 through 12. I tell you, many will come from east and west and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. While the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness, in the place where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

[00:13:44] So yeah, there's that bit from the Webster definition and the Oxford definition about hell being another place under the earth. It's not under the earth. Like, it's an out, here it's referred to as an outer darkness, but you'll see the general motif is that it's not beneath anything. It's not a physical place.

[00:14:03] It's a place where your spirit goes. So yeah, building off of that, 2 Peter 2, verse 4, for if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until judgment, there's more there, but that's the mention of hell. Then there's Luke chapter 16, verses 22 to 24.

[00:14:24] The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. And he called out, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in the flame.

[00:14:46] So, again, we come back to the parable. We come to this parable for reference to both heaven and hell. And just as we said in the, or at least, I feel like we're all in agreement as far as the heaven episode is concerned. Just because it's in a parable doesn't mean that everything in it is 100 percent as it actually is.

[00:15:04] Jesus was telling a parable. I think there are bits and pieces that we can pull from that, but we can't create a cohesive understanding of heaven or hell just from that one parable. But so far, what do you guys think? 

[00:15:16] Gina: It's interesting that some descriptions of hell describe it as like burning and fiery and other descriptions call it like darkness and gloomy.

[00:15:27] It's hard to have light with fire, or no light with fire. So, It's an interesting dichotomy. 

[00:15:34] Ben: Yeah. And we'll get more into that in a bit, but that's a good thought to hold on to because there's a possibility that it's referring to two different places, but we'll get to that. 

[00:15:43] Gina: Yeah. 

[00:15:44] Ben: So do the devils and demons rule hell, like in popular depictions, you know, where they're running around with pitchforks and they're probing people's butts and whatnot.

[00:15:54] Probing people's butts. We'll take that, we'll take that part 

[00:15:57] Cody: out. No, I leave it. I 

[00:15:58] Ben: like it. 

[00:16:00] Cody: No, absolutely not. I don't, where does that come from? 

[00:16:04] Ben: There's just a lot of, yeah, there's a lot of art depictions from like the medieval era that show the fire and torment. And I think like some, from some of the verses that we read before, the demons are going to be down there and people are going to be cast down there as well from what the verses were saying.

[00:16:21] And so if we're all going to be down there together, then. And who knows what's going to happen? What are demons going to do except torture people? But it's certainly not something that's said in the Bible. It's not saying that demons are there to torture people. 

[00:16:35] Gina: Some people, I think, get that he could be the ruler of hell or of darkness because scripture calls him, like, I think it calls him the prince of something.

[00:16:48] Ben: He's, he's the prince of the kingdom of air. 

[00:16:51] Gina: And then there's another one that says that he is like the father of lies. So it gives him like, there's certain wordplay that makes it seem like he has more authority than he does. And people are fearful. 

[00:17:05] Ben: Wait, so the verse that you're talking about him being a prince is actually one that's written down here.

[00:17:10] And you were dead in trespasses and sins. In which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience, among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, And we're by nature, children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

[00:17:35] So hell is not set up to be a place where the devil rules. The devil didn't rule hell. 

[00:17:41] Gina: No, but as a person who's only been a believer for eight years and who was afraid to study hell because of my background. Like, it is easy to believe that there would be some kind of yin and yang situation going on.

[00:17:56] And it's not true, but it is a common misconception that I think it is more common than we probably realize being in the church. 

[00:18:05] Ben: Yes. And there's a lot of talk of that dichotomy of light versus darkness, of hot versus cold, of good versus evil. And so in order to help people understand the nature of God, you talk about light and dark, and the Bible talks a lot about light and dark, and you think, okay, so equal and opposite powers.

[00:18:22] Even in that, these forces that we're talking about, light and dark, hot and cold, they're not equal and opposites. It is the presence or absence. Darkness is not anything in and of itself. It is the absence of light. Cold is not anything in and of itself, it is the absence of heat. Evil is not anything in and of itself, it is the absence of good.

[00:18:44] There are a lot of people who fall into that trap of thinking, Okay, there has to be a king of hell, just as there is a king of heaven, and good and evil are basically fighting, and there are a lot of people who take that position just to say, What one person says is good, another person might consider to be evil, it's all two sides of the same coin.

[00:19:00] No, that's not the way the Bible represents good or evil. It's that the devil is a loser. Like Christ conquered sin and death, he conquered the devil. He conquered this world from him. He took his dominion away. And now the devil is basically just biding the rest of his time waiting until he's cast into the fiery pit.

[00:19:16] In Revelation chapter 20, verse 10, And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were, and they were tormented day and night for ever and ever. So the devil will one day be thrown into hell. And that is the place he suffers. It's a quarantine zone for him and his angels.

[00:19:36] Gina: And the condemned. 

[00:19:38] Ben: So, there's also Luke chapter 8 verses 30 to 31. Jesus then asked him, What is your name? And he said, Legion. For many demons had entered him. And they begged him not to command them to depart into the abyss. Demons don't want to be there. So yeah, going back to the central question, do demons rule hell?

[00:19:58] They don't want to be there. They legitimately begged Jesus not to cast them out of this man and be sent into the abyss. So there's also Revelation 9 1 and the fifth angel blew his trumpet and I saw a star fallen from heaven to earth And he was given the key to the shaft of the bottomless pit Revelation chapter 19 verse 20 and the beast was captured and with it the false prophet Who in its presence had done the signs by which he had deceived those who had received the mark of the beast And those who worshipped its image.

[00:20:31] These two were thrown alive into the lake that burns with sulfur. So yeah, hearing all this, one, is there any comments that you guys have so far? 

[00:20:39] Gina: No, I think you're on point. Thank you. 

[00:20:42] Ben: So this does bring us to the next question. We're hearing a lot of references, both of an abyss and a lake of fire. And Gina, you mentioned before that, you know, there's a lot of talk about darkness versus fire, and it seems strange that there would be light in a place where there's darkness and whatnot.

[00:20:59] So, yeah, there, there are really a couple of different terms that the Bible is using here. There's like Hades. There's the abyss. There's the lake of fire. Are these places different or are they all different names for the same place? 

[00:21:13] Gina: I'm going to let Cody answer that one because he's all into the language.

[00:21:17] Cody: I was under the impression that they're all the same, but I'm open to be wrong. I mean, it's tough because Hades is the translation of Sheol, um, which Sheol from Ancient Hebrew was more thought of in the world, but utter darkness doesn't really fit into that category for me. So I could see them being different, but it's not something I've really 

[00:21:43] Ben: looked into.

[00:21:44] I don't know if I just read it or if it was referenced somewhere else, but the Bible does talk about demons being thrown into the abyss when they sinned. That's Peter, 

[00:21:57] Cody: 2nd Peter. For God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and commended them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until judgment.

[00:22:05] Ben: So yes, presently there is a pit that demons have been thrown into. And they are being held in chains until the day of judgment. And there are portions in revelation that talk about the keys to the pit. And that's another thing that we recently just read. The keys, there's an angel that falls and there's a keys to the abyss and the abyss is opened.

[00:22:27] Now that is not the lake of fire. It can't be the lake of fire. 

[00:22:31] Cody: If you take that position though, 2nd Peter then says that they're cast them into hell. To be held. So as hell in the lake of fire, not the same 

[00:22:40] Ben: as well. So again, this is a, a difference in terms here. It seems like once again, as there's the word heavens, Heaven is a reference to multiple things.

[00:22:51] It seems that hell here is also being referenced to multiple things. The Bible does seem to say that there is a place that is an abyss. And it's the place where angels are currently thrown. Revelation chapter 20 verses 11 through 15. Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence, earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them.

[00:23:13] And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne. And books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it. Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.

[00:23:35] Then Death and Hades were thrown into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death, the Lake of Fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the Book of Life, he was thrown into the Lake of Fire. So Death and Hades are thrown into the Lake of Fire. You can't throw hell into hell. It seems to me, and this is something that I found just researching for this episode, and I want to see what you guys think because this is actually just something that I found while genuinely reading these verses with a fresh eye.

[00:24:06] It seems like the abyss is a separate place from hell. The abyss is the place where the dead and devils are thrown for now, being held until the time of judgment. Once the time of judgment comes, the Abyss gives up all that is in it, and both humans and devils are judged, and then thrown into the Lake of Fire.

[00:24:26] The Lake of Fire seems to be a separate place. 

[00:24:29] Cody: In this context, I would agree, but his death is depicted as an individual place. But Hades is usually the translation for Sheol. It says death and Hades, two individual 

[00:24:43] Ben: places. Yeah, I'd have to look up the actual words used there. So there's a little bit up in the air.

[00:24:49] But still, the Bible is talking about the place that it says people were. In that same set of verses, in this same chapter, it talks about that death and the grave. Death and Hades give up those who are in them. And then death and Hades are thrown into the fire. 

[00:25:03] Gina: If demons are shackled, currently in an abyss, how is their spiritual warfare on earth?

[00:25:10] Ben: So not all of them are thrown in there. Remember, the ones in Legion begged not to be thrown down. There are demons that presently are there, but not every single demon is there. 

[00:25:21] Cody: Sorry, but I think that would back up my position on demons being the fallen. Potentially. There are a couple of different explanations.

[00:25:27] If you take Peter for that, if God didn't spare the angels when they sinned and shackled them, then did he spare some angels? 

[00:25:36] Ben: The question is, sinned for what? So, is there like a gradual sinning? Is it like all of them sinned all at once and then were all sent down at the same time? Or did they sin at different times doing different things?

[00:25:50] So like the gods of Egypt, there were presumably demons who sinned prior to them and did bad things, because we talk about the Nephilim. So, by definition, there had to have been angels who sinned prior to them, because the creation of the Nephilim would presumably be a sin. And then there's the gods of Egypt who would also have to be demons.

[00:26:07] The generally assumed to be fallen angels. Although you could also argue those were spirits of Nephilim or something like that. But at this point, I think we're getting into kind of a semantic game. You could absolutely be right. And it could be that over time, the angels of heaven that turned into demons, that turned against God eventually rebelled and were thrown.

[00:26:24] But there were the spirits of Nephilim that were still causing issues on earth. I don't know that's the case. No matter what, we're told that there are demons that are in this abyss and those that are there will be brought up to be judged. And then once they are judged, they will be thrown into the lake of fire.

[00:26:40] Cody: So it's interesting. I have a hard time with Revelation on the heaven and hell talk with its genre. I would need to look up and find other connections scripturally for the two independent places. 

[00:26:54] Gina: So Cody has a rule that if you can't back one book up with another author, then it may not be as credible or reliable to build your faith on.

[00:27:06] Cody: Yeah. If you get a doctrine from Paul and you can't back it up anywhere else in the Bible, I think you need to look at that a little bit more strictly than you would anywhere 

[00:27:14] Ben: else. And I would have to go a bit more in detail and studying the word usage here. We have seen so far, though, that there is word usage for the abyss.

[00:27:25] And the darkness, and we have seen word usage for the lake of fire, referring to the ultimate eternal torment. So it seems that both are being used, and it's just in Revelation, it seems to me, at the very least, that they're being used to refer to two different places. And to an extent, this actually goes into our discussion before about, you know, heaven versus a kind of purgatory place where people would be held instead of going straight to heaven.

[00:27:52] Gina: Like a holding cell. 

[00:27:53] Ben: And in a sense, that does make sense. They haven't been judged yet, so they're being held until the time where they're judged. It doesn't make sense to throw someone into a place of eternal torment just to bring them back up and say, okay, now we're going to judge you. 

[00:28:06] Gina: Pause for a second.

[00:28:07] I just got to tell you everything you've done wrong after I've already abused 

[00:28:11] Ben: you. Yeah. So it does make sense that God would put someone in the equivalent of a holding cell. They've been accused, at the very least, of wrongdoing. And so they need to wait their day in court. Now, again, it doesn't make sense.

[00:28:24] Doesn't mean that it's right. And like you said, we do need to hedge our bets here a bit. We do need to take a step back and say, we need to find enough of this throughout the new Testament to say that we would, you know, back this horse, so to speak. 

[00:28:37] Cody: No, and it's an interesting concept. I do think it backs up the idea that there is a holding place.

[00:28:43] Um, that's another scripture. And, um, Luke, I think backs that up more than hell versus heaven between Lazarus and the rich man, um, as a holding place. Cause, um, later on in that parable, it talks about, um, the rich man wants to tell his brothers. Um, and then basically Jesus says or Abraham says they had Moses and they didn't believe.

[00:29:06] I think that depicts more of a holding place rather than hell itself or the lake of fire in this context. 

[00:29:14] Ben: Yeah, it could. It's interesting at the very least. And I wish that I had thought more about it or knew more about this. opinion because I hadn't searched much to see if anyone else was really talking about this interpretation and I probably should have.

[00:29:28] Cody: No, it's a good, I missed that going through the outline. It's a good thought. 

[00:29:32] Ben: The truth, I only came up with it like a day ago. After looking over the verses that I had written down, I realized there was something there I hadn't noticed before. 

[00:29:42] Gina: That's good, and that's the Holy Spirit speaking to you, so.

[00:29:45] Cody: Only if it's right. And that's good for this conversation, too, and I don't think we've outlined it as well as we should, but, um, I think you mentioned earlier, but don't take our word for it. No, please don't take our word for it. Come to your own conclusions. 

[00:29:59] Gina: There's like, really, I think three main camps of thought on heaven and hell, and Like, you may fall in between, but it's very sensitive and touchy, and some churches and some theologians take a really intense stance on what happens in the afterlife, and I'm willing to be wrong.

[00:30:18] Cody: I do have to say that, uh, with absolute confidence, I don't think you're going to get a test at the end of your life and what you believed in hell, and that's going to determine whether you are saved or not. That is not what the Bible teaches. 

[00:30:33] Ben: Absolutely. 

[00:30:34] Cody: Your, your view on hell is not going to determine your salvation.

[00:30:37] It's your. Faith in Christ and Christ's work that determines that. 

[00:30:41] Ben: Yeah. And like we said at the very beginning of this episode, there are a lot of people who are very passionate about this particular subject. And to be fair, I think there are people who are passionate about just about every realm of scripture.

[00:30:54] They feel as if you question their particular interpretation or a traditional interpretation of scripture, That your act of questioning means that you are leaving the faith or you are challenging the faith and that's not at all what we're doing. And that's not at all what people who have questions are doing.

[00:31:12] They have questions. 

[00:31:13] Gina: All of these conclusions are based on interpretation. You can look at every different opinion on hell and what it is and where it is and who goes there and all of that, what happens there. You can draw your own conclusion. And it might align with somebody else's, but ultimately it's all based on somebody else's interpretation.

[00:31:35] Ben: Now that doesn't mean that there is not truth. There is absolute truth. There is an ultimate answer. And while we all do have our individual interpretations, the best thing for us to do is to accept that we are fallible people, looking at the infallible Word of God, and we are trying to discern the true meaning.

[00:31:53] And we are servants of Christ. You are not someone who can judge someone else's servant. So just keep that in mind if you get really angry the next time someone talks about hell and they mention something, an interpretation, maybe purgatory or something, and you think that sounds silly to you. Now again, it might be good for us to touch briefly on purgatory again, because that is, uh, in a sense tied to this.

[00:32:14] It's both tied to heaven and hell. We covered it in the last episode, but for those of you who weren't with us for that particular episode, there's the Catholic position. And I don't know if the Orthodox churches or the Assyrian church of the East or whatnot also hold the purgatory exists, but it's the idea that once again, there are So, two classifications essentially of sins.

[00:32:33] There's venial sins, which are easy to forgive, and mortal sins, which require a sacrament to cover. If you have sacraments that cover each of your mortal sins, so like you go to mass regularly, then your mortal sins have been covered by God's grace. However, Your venial sins are still with you, and if you commit too many venial sins, there's something in heaven called the treasury of merit.

[00:32:55] And that's where all of the different good deeds of all of the different people who've been heroes of the Bible or Christians, like Mary's good deeds are there, Jesus's good deeds are there. And so if there are not enough good deeds in the treasury of merit to cover over your venial sins, you go to purgatory and you suffer for a certain amount of time so that by the end of it, you have suffered enough to where you are purified and can go to heaven.

[00:33:18] It's a weird, Middle ground between heaven and earth. Do they believe that 

[00:33:21] Cody: Jesus's good deeds are also in there? From my understanding, yes. How does it not cover everybody then? It's a way off topic, but I didn't put too into it. So if they believe that Jesus's good works are in this box of goodness, like, how do, how does anybody make it into purgatory?

[00:33:43] Ben: Because everyone else has used those good deeds up. His good deeds are worth a lot, but a lot of people do a lot of bad venial sins. 

[00:33:51] Cody: Okay. Sorry to get off track there. I 

[00:33:53] Ben: hadn't heard 

[00:33:54] Cody: that 

[00:33:54] Ben: one 

[00:33:55] Cody: before. It's like, Oh, Jesus. Okay. 

[00:33:59] Ben: But it's supposed to be that the good deeds of other people cover your good deeds.

[00:34:04] And you can also hold masses, I believe, for people who are dead. And you can give offerings for people who are dead, or at the very least you used to be able to. The idea is that you can get people out of purgatory faster by the people who love you taking certain actions and getting you out sooner. Some people may see this as a similar idea to the abyss, where it's a holding place for people who've sinned, and then when judgment time comes, they're taken out.

[00:34:30] I don't see that as the same thing at all. 

[00:34:33] Cody: Agreed. I don't see that as the same at all. Purgatory is completely different. 

[00:34:38] Ben: Yeah, it's a place for you to suffer, so that you can go to heaven. Whereas the abyss seems to be a holding place for the people who stand condemned before God. Eventually he will judge them and then they will be cast into the lake of fire.

[00:34:50] But yeah, that does beg the question. The Bible says that the devil will be sent to the lake of fire for all eternity. Will humans be sent there forever as well? And we're starting to get into the territory where there's going to be some disagreement amongst, uh, those of us here. And actually, I'm really looking forward to this, because it's going to be a fun discussion.

[00:35:08] But, we start with Matthew chapter 10, verse 28. And do not fear those who kill the body, but cannot kill the soul. Rather, fear him who can destroy both body and soul in hell. From this verse alone so far, it seems to indicate that destruction of body and soul can happen in hell. So while it is clear, both from Revelation chapter 20, and also from Matthew chapter 10, that humans do go to hell, the question is, do you stay there for all eternity like the devil does?

[00:35:39] And the devil does very clearly stay there forever. It does say that he's tormented there forever. Are humans tormented there forever or are they destroyed? 

[00:35:47] Cody: I would say finish out the like traditional view. 

[00:35:51] Ben: Okay, so first we'll start, we'll finish with the traditional view. So the traditional view in the Christian faith is that yes, if you are sent to hell, You burn there for all eternity and there's uh, a few verses that can be used to back that up.

[00:36:06] So there's two Thessalonians one, six through nine since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction. Those who afflict you afflicted as well as to us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God. And on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus, they will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.

[00:36:35] So the destruction is eternal. But again, eternal destruction could mean you are destroyed for all of eternity, as in gone. Destruction could be interpreted here to mean you're just suffering a whole lot, but it could also be interpreted as destroyed. But still. That's generally something that's used in defense of, you suffer for all eternity, eternal destruction.

[00:36:56] Then there's Mark chapter 9 verses 47 through 48. And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, where the worm does not die and the fire is not quenched. The fire doesn't die, you're, the worm that is with you never dies, the fire's never quenched.

[00:37:18] It seems to indicate there that you will be suffering for all time. But again, it's not specifically saying that you're going to suffer for all time. It says, the worm does not die, the fire is not quenched, the fire is there for all eternity. And it's tough to say what exactly it means, the worm doesn't die.

[00:37:35] Maybe it's talking about maggots eating your body. It's very unpleasant. Some people have interpreted that way and what do you guys think? 

[00:37:41] Cody: Yes, so annihilationism or conditional Atonement, I think is a reasonable position to take not necessarily fact, but it definitely has some biblical weight to it that you can make a reasonable defense of it Um, so starting off on immortality, um, so the, the concept of a soul being a mortal is kind of a platonic, like a Plato philosophy that was introduced through Augustine to the church.

[00:38:14] You get a lot of that influence there, but in Genesis 3, 22. It says, And the Lord God said, The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat and live forever. So right there you have almost a God is sustaining life for man, that it is a continual thing that he has to take.

[00:38:39] So not necessarily immortal from the beginning. So on immortality, um, you have a lot of early church fathers who also had this as this thought and theology, you know, Clement of Rome, Athanasius of Alexandria, Theophilus of Antioch, Irenaeus of Lyons, all corroborate the conditional immortality. Viewpoint, uh, more modern scholars.

[00:39:09] You have John Stott and Fudge all corroborate this as well. And some of the drawbacks or some of the potential touch points that, uh, eternal conscious torment leans on is some of the like eternal fire, uh, scripture. So just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire.

[00:39:36] Serve as an example for undergoing the punishment of eternal fire and that's Jude verse seven doesn't necessarily mean that it is a fire that you will live in for all eternity. The eternal fire here is God, like God is a fire that can't be put out. The fire of God can't be put out and you know this because Sodom and Gomorrah are not still burning to this day.

[00:40:02] that that fire has gone out in Sodom and Gomorrah, but the fire that burned them is not extinguished. And you have another instance of Sodom and Gomorrah of turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes has condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly.

[00:40:22] So that's second Peter two, six, again, pulling on this Sodom and Gomorrah imagery of something that has gone extinct, Sodom and Gomorrah is not there anymore, and that is what's going to happen to the future ungodly. And then, But on the day when Lot went out from Sodom, fire and sulfur rained from heaven and destroyed them all.

[00:40:46] So will it be on the day when the Son of Man is revealed. So again, you have this Sodom and Gomorrah imagery. You have, that's what happened to Sodom is going to happen to the ungodly, and they're going to be destroyed. And that's Luke 17, 29 through 30. And the eternal fire, um, that's depicted as the Lord.

[00:41:09] So the, so, um, there's some scripture for that as well. For the Lord, your God is a consuming fire and a jealous God consuming there being a key factor, Deuteronomy 4, 24. Know therefore today that he who goes over before you as a consuming fire is the Lord, your God. He will destroy them and subdue them before you, so you shall drive them out and make them perish quickly as the Lord has promised.

[00:41:36] Um, another one that the ETC original view or, um, traditional view of hell points on is, uh, Daniel 12 too. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life and some to everlasting contempt. So that, that can be used, um, for the traditional view, but a good analogy of that is, you know, Hitler was very much alive.

[00:42:03] He's surely dead now, but he's also viewed pretty much for the rest of mankind in contempt. He is not living still, but he is still thought of in contempt. That could also be how you could perceive the ungodly going forward. Revelation 21 for he will wipe away every tear from their eyes and death shall be no more neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain anymore for the former things have passed away again that's more of a depiction of heaven but if there is this eternal conscious torment I don't know how those things could for sure be passed away If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through the fire.

[00:42:50] Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's spirit dwells in you? If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy and you are that temple first Corinthians 3 15 through 17 and that one Paul is actually pulling from Isaiah 43 to when you walk through the fire You should not be burned and the flame shall not consume you so that you have that eternal fire God's fire again present and a lot of the original depiction and you know, uh You C.

[00:43:26] S. Lewis is famous for quoting it, that there's a thought that souls are eternal no matter what, and I think there could be good argument that, um, it was introduced by Augustine. He's very influenced by Plato's writings. And that's kind of where the idea of the immortal soul comes from. The idea, though, contradicts Augustine's affirmations on the view of evil, though.

[00:43:49] The notion that evil is not part of reality, but rather a perversion or lack of goodness. Prevation. or lack of goodness. Hell cannot exist in any fashion if the cessation of evil is reality for all of creation. That's going through my notes, but 

[00:44:07] Ben: Well, let's walk through some of the stuff that you've read.

[00:44:10] Going back to Genesis and the Tree of Life, were people going to die Before 

[00:44:17] Cody: the fall. If cut off from the tree of life, I believe so, yes. You have this depiction of a necessity for the tree of life, whether that's God or something else. So, death was a 

[00:44:29] Ben: part of God's design before the fall. It was a potential.

[00:44:33] We're not talking about potential. There was all kinds of potential. Did God design things like humans and animals to die at the beginning? I would think so. Yeah, I mean. The problem is that the book of Revelation talks about death being thrown into the lake of fire, death being an unnatural thing. When Lazarus died, Jesus wept.

[00:44:53] Death is not a good thing in and of itself. God uses death because we live in a fallen world and death now is inevitable. But it seems to me that death was not a part of the Garden of Eden. It wasn't a part of his creation at that time and it was after the fall. And that seems to be the general interpretation.

[00:45:12] That after the fall, death and sin, sin and death. That is the combination that is mentioned throughout the Bible. God conquered sin and death. Jesus conquered sin and death. He has the keys of death and of Hades. Death is an evil thing that needed to be conquered. 

[00:45:27] Cody: Yeah, but the command, the first commandment of God is if you eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, on that day you are surely died.

[00:45:35] You shall. Yeah. So death was at least a possibility if disobedient to God's command. 

[00:45:43] Ben: Sin was a possibility because the idea, kind of going off of what Augustine said, is that a rejection of God, a rejection of good is what evil is. Once we let sin into the world, then capacity for death was realized. And that's implied by the idea of saying that if you eat of this fruit, you shall die.

[00:46:00] That implies that before that they wouldn't have, or at least you can make that argument. For sure, if they lived in perfection, I don't think they would have died. And that's kind of the point. The idea is prior to that, if they had not sinned, would they have died? If they had stayed with God and had not rebelled in any way, and it said no to the serpent, would they have died?

[00:46:20] No. That's what I was asking. Okay. Once they sinned, then they could suddenly die, right? Once they ate of the fruit, 

[00:46:27] Cody: yeah. Yeah, once they 

[00:46:28] Ben: ate of the, once they sinned effectively, they died. Prior to this point, they had eternal life. At this point, then they could have had eternal life with sin. 

[00:46:37] Cody: So you, they didn't technically have like eternal life.

[00:46:41] They weren't. 

[00:46:42] Ben: without creation. I'm talking about going forward. Eventually we are going to have eternal life in Christ. That isn't to say that we exist from everlasting to everlasting. We would live forever going forward. Correct. The point is, how is God treating this? The idea of a person living forever with sin?

[00:47:01] The question is, is he trying to prevent that from happening because that would be torment and wrong and bad. It would be bad for us. 

[00:47:09] Cody: The argument could be made there. Yes. 

[00:47:11] Ben: Yes. And so I don't think it's clear from the text and from the arguments being presented that automatically it's a blessing for God to allow someone to live forever.

[00:47:23] I think it was for our benefit that God prevented us from living forever with sin. Because hypothetically it was possible if he removed us from the garden and kept us from eating from the tree. That implies that it would have been wrong for us to be able to live forever and also possible for us to live forever with sin.

[00:47:40] And that would be bad. Why would that be bad? I think it would be torture to live for the rest of eternity with sin. And that, in a sense, is what hell arguably is. Living forever with your own sin, with all good things removed, and God withdrawing his presence, and you are consumed by your own negativity.

[00:47:59] All of the bad things that you are without God. 

[00:48:02] Cody: So, he's taking away the tree of life so that they can die, but then giving them access to live forever again through the tree of life. 

[00:48:12] Ben: Through the proper means. So, the question is, is what exactly do we mean by eternal life in the heavenly sense? Eventually, we die and we are judged.

[00:48:21] And that's kind of the point. We are, in taking the fruit and kind of trying to bypass. This process we would be living forever, but living with our own sin. We don't ultimately know what would have happened if we had access to immortality, but we also were sinful. 

[00:48:34] Cody: But how would you make sense of John 3 16 then the you know the gift of You know for God to love the world that he gave his one and only son that whoever believe how shall have eternal life But 

[00:48:47] Ben: the question is, what do we mean by eternal life and what do we mean by everlasting destruction and death?

[00:48:52] As we talked about earlier in the podcast, there is a verse in Revelation that specifically says that the devil will be tormented day and night for all eternity. At the very least, we know that the devil is eternal. Is consigned to eternal life quote unquote, but he will be suffering for that entire eternity.

[00:49:10] It's not a true life 

[00:49:11] Gina: Sorry, there's also the verse that talks about the devil also Suffering forever with his demons and false prophets. 

[00:49:20] Ben: Yes So we know that there are plenty of people who are going to be there suffering for all eternity, right? So making the argument that humans are different But i'm open to the argument about um annihilationism Like, I'm not completely against that, but saying that simply existing for all eternity is eternal life and a reward, thus God wouldn't grant it, looking at Genesis, that's not clear to me.

[00:49:47] It seems to me like God is preventing a horrible mistake on behalf of mankind from being committed because already one has already happened. But through that mistake. There are positive things that can come, and we've kind of talked about that throughout, you know, the various other episodes that we've done.

[00:50:03] The nature of evil and why God would even allow evil to exist, and then the process of sanctification and coming to overcome our sin through the power of Christ. Through Christ and communion with Christ, we can experience true eternal life. He is that life. Without Him, we can't. 

[00:50:20] Cody: Why would he not condemn the devil and his angels to face the same death that humans do and be cut off from the life that they currently have?

[00:50:32] Ben: Well, it does talk about them being cast into the abyss, which is the death that we encounter. So, kind of going back to what we talked about earlier in this podcast, Um, it talks about how like the, the souls of people are cast down into the abyss. And it also talks about how demons, when they sinned, were cast down into the abyss.

[00:50:51] So in a sense, like all of us that sin are cast into the same waiting area, so to speak. This is not the eternal lake. This is not the lake of fire, but there is a place that both humans and devils who sinned against God are all alike being held. And like Gina said, we are all destined, those who sin, the devil, demons, the false prophets and the people who are separated out from the believers are all thrown into the lake of fire.

[00:51:17] And so in that sense, we get the same punishment. Now it manifests differently because we're flesh and blood and there's purely spirit. But once we are spirit, we end up in the same place. In both instances, both in the Abyss and in the Lake of Fire. 

[00:51:29] Gina: Continue, I have nothing to add. 

[00:51:32] Cody: Sounded like you had something to 

[00:51:33] Ben: add.

[00:51:34] I think that the crux of the argument kind of centers around two points. The first is to say that eternal life is some kind of reward. That's not apparent to me. From Genesis or talking about the destruction that happens with Sodom and Gomorrah. Like from the eternal destruction that it talks about for Sodom and Gomorrah, I could just as easily see that being a reference to the fact that all of the people in Sodom and Gomorrah were 100 percent evil.

[00:51:59] And that's the point that Abraham was getting from God. If there are even 10 righteous people, there weren't even 10 righteous people. All the righteous people left that city. Every single person in there was bad to the bone, and thus is destined to eternal destruction. 

[00:52:12] Gina: You know why I think I want annihilationism to be true?

[00:52:16] You're gonna laugh at me, but in, like, all of the children's movies when we were growing up, they, like, resurrected these bad guys over and over, and it's like, just kill them already! 

[00:52:30] Ben: We know that the devil serves a purpose for the time being. And that's the only reason why he's allowed to continue. Once the purpose of evil has been fulfilled, it is cast into the abyss.

[00:52:40] Death is cast into the abyss. Everything, the abyss is cast into the abyss. Everything is cast into the lake of fire. It is destroyed, quote unquote. The big question here is what does that mean? Because the Bible does use the term destruction a number of times. We've already referenced it a few times in this episode.

[00:52:57] And Cody, you brought up a few. additional instances. I think there are enough instances of the term destruction and saying the second death and whatnot to make the argument that eventually these souls will perish. However, that seems to only apply to the human ones because again, it is made abundantly clear that the devil will be tormented day and night for all eternity.

[00:53:22] And granted, that is the only time that we get that. is in that one passage in Revelation. However, we only get one passage in the book of Job that tells us how old Job was when he died. There are plenty of instances where we are only told the one piece of information the one time. And it doesn't discount it that we're only told once.

[00:53:41] If we're told abundantly clearly, Like, there's no contesting what it said, there's no going to the context and trying to figure out if the word in Greek means something different sometimes. We were told twice in two different ways in the same passage. So, the devil is going to be suffering for all eternity along with the demons.

[00:53:58] They are pure spirit. Once we are pure spirit, it also makes sense that we would suffer for all eternity. The question is, do we? And I think there's enough evidence in the Bible to say there's some gray area, maybe we are eventually suffering. In a sense, let off the hook. And I don't know that I would use that term.

[00:54:12] Cody: No, 

[00:54:12] Ben: I 

[00:54:12] Gina: don't think it's let off the hook because you'd cease to exist. 

[00:54:15] Ben: Yeah, that's the thing. I feel like there are a lot of people who they feel like the annihilationist perspective is letting people off the hook that because you're not suffering and conscious of it for all eternity, that somehow this is a better option.

[00:54:28] In a sense, I feel that way. But I, I do feel like it's a merciful option rather than being cognizant and conscious and being unable to move or do anything and just be always suffering with no relief. 

[00:54:41] Gina: But think about our generation, like our generation has this crazy desire to remain like known and relevant, to be made irrelevant, to be made insignificant, to not exist.

[00:54:55] That's quite a punishment still mm hmm just food for thought 

[00:55:00] Cody: no and and just the the point of this I think is to make it like there's enough terms of things burning up like we're constantly You know the chaff is is used for those who don't believe and that burns up like it has a finite Endpoint and then there's the Sodom and Gomorrah references more than more than one time about you know You This is how it's going to be at the end times and Sodom is not still continually burning right now so I think there is foundation biblically for an annihilationist view do I think that's absolutely correct do I think I'm gonna get quizzed at the end of time whether I believed in eternal conscious torment or annihilationism and it is dogma You know, or if it has anything to do with my salvation, I don't think my view of hell has weight on salvation.

[00:55:57] Ben: Agreed. And it's not that I think that any of your points are bad or anything. Like, it's not that you're making massive jumps or leaps in logic. And it's not even that this is you specifically. You've cited a lot of other people who've taken this position. Some heavy hitters throughout Christian history, honestly.

[00:56:11] And so it's not that it's stupid to believe this. And there was a time where I'd heard this position and thought it was stupid. It's not stupid. There is. argument to it, there's reason behind it, and there is Bible to back it up. But I think my issue with it is that it's taking humans And putting us aside from the devil and his demons and saying that they will suffer for all eternity.

[00:56:36] We will not. It's not that that's impossible. It's just, it seems odd to me that that would be the case. And I don't fully understand why not understanding something is not, you know, evidence for or against, it's just my own personal hangup. 

[00:56:50] Cody: We've talked a little bit about. About that though, and like the consequence for like dwelling with God and knowing God should be more severe than, you know, the, the divine hiddenness that humans experience in this life.

[00:57:06] Ben: Yeah. But that is actually taking the position that Annihilationism is mercy. 

[00:57:11] Cody: Not necessarily, but it's more a checks and balance. Like there, there is more severe sin than other sin. 

[00:57:20] Ben: Well, again, to say that the devil being tormented for all of eternity along with his angels is more severe and thus the punishment is more severe implies that the less severe punishment.

[00:57:32] is being eradicated completely. Yeah, I don't The point is, is that earlier we were talking about how it's tough to say if one is more severe than the other. The argument you're making is that one actually is less severe than the other. And it's not necessarily that I disagree, that could actually be a point in annihilationist favor.

[00:57:51] But, it is taking a definitive position on the idea that one is a merciful gesture. 

[00:57:56] Cody: My whole thing is like, annihilation is thought of as like blasphemous, and a lot of people have held it to, you know, there's no biblical foundation, there's no good hermeneutics in an annihilation standpoint, but I disagree with that strongly.

[00:58:13] I think you can come to eternal conscious torment or annihilation from a very biblical standpoint. In both of those camps and still be a very faithful, very hermeneutically driven Christian. 

[00:58:28] Ben: I agree. I think this is a rib and not a spine issue. And I do think that you're right, Cody, like you said, we're not going to get a quiz on this before we enter heaven and St.

[00:58:37] Peter's not going to kick us straight down to the abyss if we get it wrong. 

[00:58:41] Gina: No, but there's a reason that you guys are having this discussion. And I think it's because you are going, your ministry is only just starting and you are going to have to have this conversation a lot. 

[00:58:53] Ben: Probably. Don't count yourself out, Gina, you're going to have to, you're going to have to talk to people about it too.

[00:58:59] Gina: Yeah. But ladies are a little different. Like, we're more emotionally driven and, like, the concerns that I have as a Christian are not necessarily the concerns that you guys have. And that may not always be a gender related thing, but, you know, hell is the ultimate punishment. So, what happens there really, like, is irrelevant to me.

[00:59:19] I'd rather help people not go there than worry about what happens there. 

[00:59:25] Cody: Oh, and I think that's why it's beneficial to bring up universalism because at the end of it, whether it's annihilation or eternal conscious torment, I think everybody here agrees that there's no turning back from that once you're in hell or not.

[00:59:42] Um, there, there's some camps of camps of universalism who just believe, you know, God's going to have mercy on everybody and take them straight to heaven. But there's also different camps that believe that when you go to hell, you'll. Burn according to your sin and because God is all merciful, you know after you've paid for your sin You'll end up going to heaven to which is purgatory.

[01:00:03] Yeah, it sounds very much like purgatory without the Catholicism That that is kind of the outlier Um, and, and I don't see scriptural evidence to back that one at all, um, besides the fact that we serve a merciful God. 

[01:00:21] Ben: I think the reason there are people who would lean in that direction is because a lot of people find it very difficult to believe a loving God would allow people to suffer for all of eternity.

[01:00:32] I think it's because we don't have a full understanding of the magnitude of what sin actually is, because we don't live with the full consequences of our sin. Like we never have. None of us do. God sees the big picture and He knows exactly what our sins have wrought on the entire world. One single sin was enough to corrupt an entire line coming from Adam and Eve.

[01:00:55] All of us struggle with sin because of them. And that's one. It's one sin. And you can make the argument it was the fruit from the tree and not the sin itself. Well, it was the sin to take the fruit. So, yes, it is tough for us to understand why it is that anyone would be sent to suffer or to be obliterated for all eternity.

[01:01:14] But the reality is, is that the Bible tells us that's what happens. So first and foremost, if the Bible tells you that's what happens and you're a Christian and you take issue with that, you got more issues than just interpretations of hell on you. 

[01:01:26] Gina: Yeah, that's, that's a confession issue. 

[01:01:29] Ben: Ultimately, the question is, is what is the just action for God to take?

[01:01:33] Sorry, again, I know I reference Nabeel all the time, but in Nabeel Qureshi's book, Seeking Allah, Finding Jesus, he was having a discussion with his friend, Dr. David Wood, about this subject, kind of. And David was talking about the nature of sin. Effectively, when you commit a sin, you are stealing from God.

[01:01:52] What you are stealing from God is a human soul, which is infinitely valuable. You are saying that that is yours. And you are taking what rightfully belongs to God and making it your own. What can you possibly give to God that is infinitely valuable? Infinitely valuable enough to pay for your own life.

[01:02:08] The own soul that you have taken from God. There is nothing. You can't work for all of eternity to pay it off. The closest thing that you can do to pay it off is to suffer in a prison effectively, using human standards. You would throw someone in prison for, you know, An amount of time that makes sense for the value of the thing you have stolen.

[01:02:25] And if what you have stolen is of infinite value, then you are thrown away for all eternity. That would be the call for justice. God is equally just, but also equally merciful. So God has paid that price himself. But you have the choice to accept his substitution for you. Or you can say that you are your own God.

[01:02:43] You are enough. You will take your own life. You will keep it. And then God says, okay, then you accept my judgment. And with judgment comes punishment. Now that may still not be satisfying to a lot of people, I understand, because again, we're talking about eternity, never ending, but that's the nature of it.

[01:03:00] That's what we're told. 

[01:03:02] Gina: Thank you so much for taking the time to listen to our podcast today. If you liked what you heard, please feel free to subscribe and share and leave a positive review. And if you would like to connect with us on social media, you can do so on Instagram and Facebook at the logic of God.

[01:03:19] You can also send us an email at main dot the logic of God at gmail. com. Thanks again for listening. We hope you have a great day.

What Is Heaven?

[00:00:00] Cody: Hi, thank you for tuning in to the Logic of God podcast. I'm Cody. 

[00:00:15] Gina: I'm Gina. 

[00:00:16] Cody: And I'm Ben. If you're returning, thank you for coming back. And if you are a new guest, welcome.

[00:00:35] Ben: At this point, we've covered angels and demons. So, we figured It would make the most sense to move from that to heaven and hell. First we wanted to cover heaven. So what would be the kind of modern understanding, the common culture depiction of heaven? Like when you say heaven, the first thing that jumps into your head.

[00:00:53] Gina: Puffy white clouds and little angel chair, a baby flying around and somewhere, maybe there's like a throne room. 

[00:01:01] Cody: The bearded white man sitting up in the clouds. 

[00:01:05] Gina: With dogs, all the dogs. 

[00:01:07] Cody: And I think that's a cartoon from the 90s, All Dogs Go to Heaven. I know, 

[00:01:12] Gina: but I loved that show, and literally when I think about heaven, I think about dogs now.

[00:01:17] Cody: It was a movie first, guys. Come on. Yeah. That's what I meant by show. 

[00:01:22] Gina: I literally drew in elementary school, like we had to make these greeting cards ourselves, and I literally drew. A eight year old depiction of that movie as all dogs go to heaven. And that was the card. And my mom ordered 250 of those cards before she knew what they said.

[00:01:40] Ben: Yeah. 

[00:01:43] Gina: I think about dogs every time I think about heaven because of that. 

[00:01:47] Ben: It's actually something we might want to cover. Are our pets going to heaven? We can cover that somewhere in here. Yeah. But yeah, it's, there's this kind of image that people get of what's up in the clouds. There's like these big gates and St.

[00:02:01] Peter's there and there's a long line of people just waiting to get in. And Peter's got the 

[00:02:06] Gina: DMV. 

[00:02:06] Ben: Yeah, basically like the DMV and everyone's got these white robes on. There are these angels flying around that look like babies that have got these harps that they're just playing. God really likes harp music.

[00:02:16] I don't know. And yeah. Is any of that. Is any of that true to what the Bible says? 

[00:02:23] Gina: I don't know, I guess we'll figure it out. 

[00:02:25] Ben: I suppose so. I think the first thing we should cover is what exactly is heaven? What do we mean when we say heaven? 

[00:02:32] Gina: We'll start with facts, and then I think maybe go into opinion a little bit more.

[00:02:37] Ben: Sounds good. 

[00:02:37] Gina: Yeah. There's a couple of dictionary definitions. Oxford defines heaven as a place regarded in various religions as the abode of God or the gods and the angels, and of all the good after death, often traditionally depicted as being above the sky. And then Webster says, The dwelling place of the deity and the blessed dead.

[00:03:00] A spiritual state of everlasting communion with God. 

[00:03:04] Ben: Of those two definitions, do we feel like both of them work? Does only one of them work? Do neither of them work? 

[00:03:10] Gina: I have an opinion, but I don't know if it aligns with any of those definitions. 

[00:03:15] Cody: As far as the more biblically accurate one, I'd say the Webster's Dictionary is more biblically accurate.

[00:03:21] Um, but I think both of those honestly are what most people think of when they think of heaven. 

[00:03:29] Ben: I would definitely agree. I think the Webster definition definitely gets a lot closer to it, at the very least the spirit of what we mean when we say heaven, eternal communion with God. Amen. But neither one is specifically wrong.

[00:03:41] And I think the Oxford Dictionary definition is much more an outsider's view, attempting to just remove all bias and, because there are a lot of different religions and philosophies that have the concept of heaven. So they're just trying to encompass all of that, where I think Webster is talking more about the Christian, Jewish, or, uh, Islamic version of heaven.

[00:04:02] So, what does the Bible say about heaven? 

[00:04:04] Gina: I'm just reading through the Hebrew word. Is it shamayim? 

[00:04:11] Ben: So, in the Bible, the word, the Hebrew word that's given for heaven is shamayim, which is either like water, or a dry wind, or the heights. There seems to be a lot of debate on what exactly. The word is like where it came from and what the roots really come together to mean I think like water makes the most sense because when it's first given it's in context with Genesis and then there's the waters and the land So like water makes sense because in part heavens are referring to the clouds, but we'll get to that in a little bit So in Genesis 1 1 it says in the beginning God created the heavens or the firmament 

[00:04:52] Gina: the firmament 

[00:04:53] Ben: Yes, and the earth.

[00:04:54] So what is the firmament? 

[00:04:56] Gina: Cody, Cody did this really funny. Okay. Cody, you watched this, like, movie about it, about something, and Oh, 

[00:05:05] Cody: just super conspiracy theorists, like, the firmament, kept saying that, and the ether. Good friend Marvin sent it to me, asked me to watch. Good ol Marvin. Spent two hours of my life that I'll never get back on this conspiracy theory of the firmament and the ether.

[00:05:24] how all the old churches and windows are really ways to channel this, uh, ether. I think they called it ether. I can't remember what it was, but he said the firmament like 150 times throughout this video. Every time he 

[00:05:39] Gina: said it was like this ominous, 

[00:05:42] Cody: that was bad. 

[00:05:43] Gina: What is the firmament? Firmament. Firmament.

[00:05:46] Ben: The firmament. 

[00:05:47] Gina: What is it? 

[00:05:49] Ben: The atmosphere. Honestly, there's been a lot of people trying to take this word firmament and take it to mean something crazy. There's one guy I heard was talking about how the firmament is actually like a sphere of water that borders the entire universe, and it consists of the universe's borders.

[00:06:08] There are some people who are like, the firmament is actually a layer of like quasi ice that existed before the flood, and then that collapsed, or it was a layer of water in the atmosphere. Yeah, there's a lot of Claims like that for me. I don't see any issue with just saying it's clouds like God God created the heavens everything in the sky So he created the clouds and he created the atmosphere He created the stars in the sky and he created the earth in the beginning.

[00:06:34] Cody: Yeah I have no problem with that, but I'm not a flat earther like everything, everybody you just described. 

[00:06:41] Ben: That not all of that falls into flat earthers, but there's also the thought that by God created the heavens and the earth, that means that God created heaven with the angels and everything. And he created the earth.

[00:06:55] So, it's very clear throughout the rest of the Genesis story, which we'll get to in a little bit, that God did create the stars in the sky and the sun and the moon and whatnot. And he created the atmosphere around the earth and the clouds in the sky. But, did he make the heaven where he resides, too? At the beginning.

[00:07:14] Cody: It's a tough question because you can go down lots of rabbit holes. Where did he reside before he created the heavens then? 

[00:07:22] Gina: He hovered. That's 

[00:07:23] Cody: it. Over the waters. 

[00:07:25] Ben: Technically he wouldn't have needed a place to reside. He's eternal from everlasting to everlasting. He's not required to be in a singular place.

[00:07:35] He's not required to be in a singular time. And so the idea is it seems like heaven is in some way bound by time. Not that it has to be, but that time progresses, that events happen in heaven. So it seems like time has to exist in heaven. God isn't bound by time, so it would make sense that God created this place, heaven, With the angels at the very beginning along with earth and that was when he created time itself So, it's tough.

[00:08:02] We'll get into that a little bit more later, and it's just an interesting thing to bring up now since we just started with the firmament. But yeah, in Genesis 1. 8, it says, God called the expanse heaven, and there was evening and there was morning the second day. Genesis 1. 14 says, And God said, Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night.

[00:08:24] And let them be signs for the seasons and for days of years, Genesis 1 20 says, and God said, let the water swarm with swarms of living creatures and let the birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the heavens. So here you get a separation. At this point, we've been talking about heavens in terms of the sky, the stars, the sun, the moon, but now it's talking about birds flying in the heavens.

[00:08:46] Then there's Genesis 1 28. And God blessed them, and God said to them, Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the heavens, and over every living thing that moves on earth. It seems like when the Bible says heaven or heavens, it's using a plural.

[00:09:06] It's referring to, basically, there's our, the air above us, where the birds fly. There's the clouds in the sky, because there was a separation of water from water. I actually didn't include that verse in here, but it's the verse. I don't remember exactly, but it's let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water.

[00:09:23] And that's the clouds. So that's another expanse that is the heavens. So yeah, you have the sun, moon, and stars in the heavens. You have our atmosphere, the heavens, the clouds, the heavens, the air above our heads, and then the birds flying in the air above us, which is the heaven. So basically it seems like the heavens.

[00:09:44] It is just a way of saying everything above us and beyond us, including the place where God resides. So I can see why a lot of people in the past would look at the clouds and think that's where God resides. Really, that's not what it's saying. But that does bring up a good question. So where exactly is heaven, as in the place where God lives?

[00:10:02] Gina: In the book of Revelation, it tells you exactly where heaven is. Where is it? It's hidden. It's not known exactly what the location is. We know what, we know that it is, but we don't have a spaceship that can hunt it down and go there. Sure, 

[00:10:23] Ben: but by the same stroke, no one knows where my stash of exotic cheeses is either.

[00:10:27] Oh my god. But we could find it. Yeah, presumably, if you were to have an eternity and enough shovels. And enough sniffer dogs, you could eventually find my stash of good smoked Gouda. But, sure, something could be hidden, but is it in physical space? If you were to pick a direction in the sky and had an infinite amount of time and traveled, could you eventually get to heaven?

[00:10:47] It's above the stars, 

[00:10:48] Cody: wherever that is. 

[00:10:49] Ben: So where 

[00:10:49] Cody: are you getting that from? I think it's in Isaiah. Did you put that on the outline? 

[00:10:53] Ben: Oh yeah, you did. I was a 

[00:10:55] Cody: good boy! Oh, that's in Psalms too. 

[00:11:00] Gina: Oh, I see. 

[00:11:01] Cody: No, just in Isaiah and Ezekiel. 

[00:11:04] Ben: It's in a few places, but we'll cover that. So yeah, there are a few places, like you said, Cody, where it says that his throne is beyond the stars, but let's go into them.

[00:11:11] You mentioned Isaiah. 

[00:11:12] Cody: Yeah, Isaiah 14, 13. So God's throne is above the stars. 

[00:11:26] Ben: And there's also a mention in Ezekiel, which we covered when talking about, uh, angels. 

[00:11:32] Gina: It's possible though. That type of story from scripture is like individual expression or like vision, but not necessarily literal heaven.

[00:11:44] Ben: There's also another verse in Psalms chapter 93 verse 2. Your throne is established from of old, you are from everlasting. This could imply that. God's throne heaven is eternal as he is so it is from everlasting to everlasting thus heaven is existed for all eternity But I don't know that's what Psalms is saying there.

[00:12:06] Gina: No, I think it's his authority that they're referring to I 

[00:12:09] Ben: agree To be fair, I do think that Isaiah is actually pretty clear there, and that it's saying that his throne is above the stars, that heaven itself is beyond the stars. And when we talk about Ezekiel chapter 1, which talks about the four living creatures that are the wheels within wheels, with the eyes all over and the wings, and his throne is set upon them.

[00:12:31] What we talked about before, and I looked into some other commentaries, it seems like that really is the way it's generally taken. That is effectively saying that God's throne is above the heavens. That the four living creatures could represent angels, but more or less they're representing all of creation.

[00:12:45] You know, the wheels within wheels, the eyes being like stars. And so it's saying that his throne is above all creation. And that he is everywhere and sees everything and that makes sense to me. 

[00:12:55] Gina: It also makes sense from the grand scheme of just space, like outer space is so vast to have it, it be with the stars and everything like that's a large quantity of space.

[00:13:09] Ben: And the idea that's basically just the wheels on his chair. Like that's a fascinating thought to me. 

[00:13:14] Gina: So above the stars, cool, still super vague. 

[00:13:19] Ben: I think the idea is that it's just, it's not in physical space. You're not going to find it anywhere. And so this idea that if you were to just go up into the clouds and look around for a bit, you'd find it.

[00:13:30] Or that people in ancient times were just silly people and thought, yeah, God's just up in the clouds. That's not what the Bible teaches and that may be the way that some people took it, but that's not what the Bible actually says. 

[00:13:42] Gina: This is a total side note, but do you think anybody will ever track down the cherubim blocking the doorway to Eden?

[00:13:49] Ben: No, I think that's the reason they're guarding it. Like the idea is that they're guards. So if they're decent guards, then no one's going to find them. 

[00:13:58] Cody: Well, in like the instance with the donkey and Balaam, like they had to make themselves known too. I think they can hide in plain sight if they want 

[00:14:14] Ben: to.

[00:14:14] Yeah. Now, there is a, a counterpoint to this idea. If heaven isn't in the universe or in physical space or in the clouds, then why was it that Jesus rose up into the sky? But when he was leaving and he was telling his disciples that he was going to prepare a place for them Like he went up into the sky. 

[00:14:32] Cody: I think there's multiple connections I think they're connecting the son of man and Daniel in the clouds, but also I think Being an Ascension I think gives that thought a little bit more meaning 

[00:14:46] Gina: I Agree, I don't have a lot of thoughts on that.

[00:14:49] Ben: There are a few things there one is I agree with you 100 percent Cody it's it meant something and And There is the verse in Isaiah about him coming in the clouds with glory and honor and power. And so he said, and the angels said, sorry, the angels there said, why do you keep looking at after him? One day he will come back the same way you saw him leave.

[00:15:11] So He could have just snapped his fingers and wiped away. In fact, he did that a number of times where he just disappeared from amongst the disciples. Another thing is that there were actually not just the 12 disciples there. Supposedly, there were dozens, if not hundreds of people there who are all looking at Christ and witnessing his ascension, rising up so that everyone can see you in an undeniable way where it's not just he's there one second and then gone.

[00:15:35] That's a powerful thing. 

[00:15:36] Gina: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was just thinking that too, like with him returning, it's going to be interesting to see how all believers could even possibly see him at the same time when he comes back, like without him descending. We're done. 

[00:15:56] Ben: That's it. Okay. So jumping from that point. What does heaven look like?

[00:16:01] Does the Bible tell us? 

[00:16:03] Cody: Yeah, there's lots of different depictions of what heaven's going to be like from a visual standpoint. But it is all, gosh, what's the appropriate term? It's all poetic description. 

[00:16:18] Ben: Yeah, I think mainly the imagery that we get of heaven comes from Revelation. And I think there are a lot of people who see the description of New Jerusalem.

[00:16:28] Yeah. And that's actually where we get a lot of the imagery that you see of heaven, of people talking about streets paved with gold, and the pearly gates, and whatnot, that actually comes from, let's see, Revelation chapter 21, verses 11 through 14. Having the glory of God, its radiance like a most rare jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal.

[00:16:48] It had a great high wall with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels. And on the gates, the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel were inscribed. On the east three gates, on the north three gates, on the south three gates, and on the west three gates. And on the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

[00:17:12] It goes on to talk about, like, streets being, Paved with gold as pure as glass. So most of the descriptions that we hear in modern culture and see of heaven, it's actually the New Jerusalem. So this is a place that doesn't exist yet. When Jesus says, I go to prepare a place for you, this is the place he's preparing.

[00:17:31] And when he returns, this is the world he's going to create. This isn't how heaven actually is, unless you assume that the New Jerusalem is basically a version of the heaven that exists, which honestly could be true. You But, that's not specifically what we're told. Are there any descriptions that we know are specifically of heaven?

[00:17:50] Gina: I made a list. 

[00:17:51] Ben: Alright, go for it. 

[00:17:52] Gina: I put the names of heaven in scripture, like the different describing words. There's the Father's house, home, paradise, the city, the kingdom of Christ and God, the heavenly Jerusalem, the kingdom of heaven, the eternal kingdom, and the better country. Those are all in scripture, in different places, describing heaven or naming heaven without saying the word heaven.

[00:18:17] Ben: Mm hmm. Yeah, there are definitely a lot of different words that describe what it is, but there are, are there any places that describe it? From a visual sense. 

[00:18:25] Gina: John 14, two in my father's house are many rooms in Hebrews 11, 10. It talks about the city and its foundations. So it gives vague ideas of what it could look like, but it's not like you can't paint a mental picture with those descriptions.

[00:18:44] I think culturally back then, there's probably context that we're missing that would probably help us visualize it better. But. It's hard to imagine many gates, and if I hadn't actually been to Jerusalem myself, I wouldn't know what that was talking about. 

[00:19:00] Cody: The only time in scripture that I can think of that there might be some inclination to what heaven looks like now is in most of the prophet stories when they're called to heaven.

[00:19:12] by God, they have this courtroom setting, which we've talked about before, this kind of throne room of God, where they'll either prostrate before God and commission him like Isaiah. It's where his, he touches his lips and they're like fire. And you have this throne room setting or this assembly, divine council, whatever you want to call it setting where there's this throne room at their end.

[00:19:36] And that's really, I think the only. repeated depiction of what you could potentially say heaven's like because it's a repeated theme throughout scripture and it's where God is now, which would be 

[00:19:49] Ben: heaven. I do think that there was, there is the chapter four in revelation that kind of does expound on that, which is one of the reasons why I do think that While Revelation chapter four, there's a lot of symbology in there.

[00:20:03] I do think some of it is representative of heaven and it goes into talking about the 24 thrones with the 24 elders and the four living creatures. And that kind of expands off of what we're told in Ezekiel and also what we're told in stories like in Job and in first Kings. So ultimately we're not told really what it looks like.

[00:20:23] We're told that there is a throne and that there are other thrones there. And we were also told in other places like where people ask if they can sit at the right and left hand of Jesus. So presumably you could do that. In order for you to do that, there have to be thrones. But we're given the image of a throne where God rests and then thrones on either side where there are 24 elders.

[00:20:46] We're told of living creatures who praise God day and night. We're told of seven golden lampstands, which also may be symbolic. So there may not even be lampstands there. One of the interesting things here is that you'll notice that in all the descriptions of heaven that we are specifically given, we're not told about what, where we will be.

[00:21:04] We're told about where God is. So that really does beg the question. Okay, so is there a separate heaven that we're a part of? Are we all going to be there? Is this just like the place where God is and we're going to be separate from him or are we going to be there with him? 

[00:21:19] Gina: Depends on your interpretation.

[00:21:22] I know what I believe, but I don't know that you would necessarily agree. And I don't know that there's necessarily scripture to back it up, but it just depends on personal interpretation. I think we all have to be okay with agreeing to disagree or not knowing. That's the hard part about Christianity to me is you know where you're going because you're told where you're going to go, but you don't really know anything about it.

[00:21:45] And you're told that it's perfect and wonderful and there's no sin and there's no crying and there's no sickness, but then you don't really know what you're going to do there. 

[00:21:54] Ben: The Bible says that we'll worship Him forever and ever. And when I was young, I'll admit, I thought, That sounds really dumb.

[00:22:00] That's terrible. I'm just going to stand there singing all the time? That sounds really boring. And is God really going to be happy with me doing that? But the truth is that we worship God through what we do. In addition to, you know, praise and worship. We're using our talents to honor him. So when it says we're worshiping him always, it means that he's going to have the proper place in our lives and at the center of everything that we do.

[00:22:24] Now, as far as whether or not we're all going to be there with him, that's tough to say. We're really not told. We'll get into that in a little bit. So I think we can put a pin in that for now. As far as Jewish tradition for heaven, It does segment heaven into several different little, I guess you could call them domains.

[00:22:43] So there's like Vedon, that's the place where the sun is. Rahia, and that's the place where the moon, the stars, and the planets are. And it's also where the sunlight shines. Shehakim, and then that's where there are the millstones. where they make the manna for the pious. I don't know if God made that specifically to make manna or what.

[00:23:02] I don't know the context for that. There's Zabul in which resides upper Jerusalem along with the temple and the altar. And it's also the place according to tradition where Michael, the chief angel prince offers sacrifices. Maon where the angel of ministry is located. They are said to sing at night, and are silent during the day for the sake of the honor of Israel.

[00:23:26] A lot of this is confusing. Mekon, which contains the treasuries of snow, hail, and chambers of noxious dews. It also houses the receptacles of water, the chamber of wind, and the cave of mist, whose doors are of fire. There's Araboth, uh, where justice, judgment, and righteousness reside. It also contains the treasuries of life, of peace and of blessing, the soul of the righteous, and the spirits and souls of those who are to be born in the future.

[00:23:55] That's that seventh heaven seems to be where we go when we die and where we go before we are born. So God creates the souls that are going to go down to earth. 

[00:24:04] Gina: Now, this is not biblical, right? 

[00:24:05] Ben: Correct. This is not even remotely biblical. None of this is explicitly said in the Bible, but this is taught as part of Jewish tradition.

[00:24:12] I don't know how many Jews actually believe this as is. There's probably plenty of discussion and debate about this amongst the Jews, just like there is amongst the Christians in terms of what heaven is. But this is what I could find in terms of what But, like, central Jewish tradition is, as taught by the Talmud.

[00:24:29] I don't know if the book of Enoch says anything to this effect, supposedly in the third book of Enoch it mentions this. 

[00:24:35] Cody: Even in one Enoch, like, this is very Enochian literature, um, I can't quote anything, but, um, especially, um. like the sixth layer there, the chamber of wind, the hail snow, like there's different sections and chambers that house these things.

[00:24:52] I think that's towards the end, like 60 through 90. I can't remember. It was, this is very 

[00:24:58] Ben: Enochian 

[00:24:58] Cody: literature 

[00:24:59] Ben: sounding. Yeah. And this is where the idea of seven heavens come from. I don't know if we have any people who grew up in the nineties, there was the show seventh heaven. You probably have heard the term before.

[00:25:09] Um, this is that concept, the idea of seven heavens. Now, I'm not a huge fan of this setup of heaven, in part because there's a strange overlap between spiritual heavens and non spiritual heavens, and some of these spiritual heavens have strange physical implications. But to be fair, that's always been the way that it's been looked at.

[00:25:31] It was believed that angels were involved in the motion of the stars for a very long time. So, it's not surprising that this is a part of Jewish tradition. It's just One, I would like it to actually be in the Bible if we're going to talk about it seriously. And it definitely isn't. And two, part of it just seems fairly superstitious to me.

[00:25:51] And maybe that's unfair. It could just be because this is, you know, 

[00:25:54] Cody: stuff I didn't grow up with. I think that's fair. Like, just reading these in depth now of what you put on the outline, it's like, Zubel, what was Michael sacrificing? Like, what was he sacrificed? Sacrificed 

[00:26:07] Gina: lambs to Mary. No? 

[00:26:09] Cody: But Mary would have only been, I guess she could have been in the seventh heaven, so maybe.

[00:26:14] What, but, so are there 

[00:26:16] Ben: herds of cattle in heaven? Yeah, that's as the spiritual cattle are they not real cattle that's 

[00:26:21] Cody: what I was like, how what is he sacrificing there? Sorry Like that's what jumped out to me reading these is okay. What's Michael sacrificing? 

[00:26:31] Ben: Yeah, I don't know I'd have to go into more depth Sadly, this is it's not something that's very easy to research.

[00:26:39] There's not a whole lot of Attempts to compile this in such a way where people outside of the Jewish faith are going to understand it So I'd have to do some more deep dives into the Talmud and actually try to parcel it all together But that's just a kind of general overview of the seven heavens at least as far as Jewish tradition in Christian tradition We're not again, it's not explicitly stated how heaven is or how it works or anything But it seems like in the Bible the world is split basically into three separate heavens You So, there's the Earth's clouds and atmosphere, then there's the universe, the broad universe where there's stars in the sky, and then there's the third heaven, or paradise, where God lives.

[00:27:18] And we get that from 2 Corinthians 12, verses 2 through 4, where Paul says, I know a man in Christ who 14 years ago, whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, only God knows, such a man was caught up to the third heaven. And I know how such a man, whether in the body or apart from the body, I do not know, God knows, was caught up into paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak.

[00:27:45] So in there, Paul specifically talks about the third heaven and referring to paradise. Again, he could actually be talking about the traditional understanding, but just slapping a new label on the third heaven here, but that is what? Yes. The third heaven is Shehakim, which would be where the millstones that produce mana is.

[00:28:07] So, I don't think Paul is talking about getting caught up into the place where there's the production of mana, and he saw inexpressible things, and he called that paradise. Moreover, this is the same word that Jesus uses where he says, I tell, truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise. So, they were gonna go and, Grind up some mana together on that day like it seems to me that Paul is referring to something entirely different where he's saying There's the third heaven the actual heaven and I went up there or this man who he's talking about Went up there and saw inexpressible things No one's permitted to tell and that makes sense to me and honestly that seems to be a much more coherent position to me where there's, okay, there's our atmosphere, that's one heaven.

[00:28:49] Then there's the universe broadly, that's the second heaven. And then there's the realm beyond that, which is where God lives. That makes sense to me. But that doesn't mean that's what Paul meant. And that is the more general interpretation I saw, but there are other interpretations, but I've been talking for a while.

[00:29:07] What do you guys think? 

[00:29:08] Cody: No, again, it's all speculation. I think on this point, I don't think there is true, definitive biblical information on this. Even like the Talmud, if you guys don't know what that is, it's basically a commentary compiled by, um, Old Jewish rabbis, not the Bible, not really a whole lot to do with the Bible.

[00:29:30] You have the mention here in second Corinthians, but that's about it on layers of heaven. And there's a lot of speculation on what people believe behind this one. But 

[00:29:41] Ben: what's frustrating is that it's very clear. Paul knew what he was talking about, but he doesn't explain what he was talking about. He knows what he meant by third heaven.

[00:29:50] We don't. We can, like you said, Cody, we can make some assumptions. And we can make some inferences, but we don't truly know. 

[00:29:57] Cody: Yeah, I think the big one there is paradise. Like, I like that you put Eden there. I think there's a lot of connection. Um, you know, when Jesus mentions being in paradise and Paul here mentions being in paradise, uh, there's a lot of connection back to that Eden story and what God intended life to be like.

[00:30:18] pre sin. So there's connection there. There's a lot of good garden connection actually, because after Jesus rises for the first time, he's mistaken for a gardener. And there's a lot of cool connection with that and claiming his kinghood because kings used to have gardens and rich people could only really manage gardens.

[00:30:41] So there are a lot of cool connections there. Absolutely. 

[00:30:44] Ben: And I think just calling it paradise is actually very helpful. We don't need a whole lot of descriptors about what it is. We know one, that there is God's throne. And so God rules from heaven. And we also know that it is paradise. It is according to the word used there in Greek, Gan Eden.

[00:31:02] It's the same word that Jesus used for paradise. So it's supposed to be a beautiful place. It's a perfect place untouched by sin. It's pure and that's where we're going. You don't need to know much more than that. It's where God is and that's where eventually you will be. Now, there are probably different.

[00:31:19] In fact, there most likely are a lot of different aspects to heaven. And that kind of leads into the next question. Do we go to heaven immediately after we die? Is there a waiting place as a part of heaven? Hmm. Cause that's the tough thing, cause there could be a place in heaven where you wait that's still going to heaven, but there could be a place separate from heaven where you wait, but it's not heaven, but it's like a heavenly place.

[00:31:44] That's like heaven, but not. 

[00:31:46] Cody: This is a tough one because this, everybody's lost somebody that they loved and everybody likes to think that everybody just goes straight to heaven and is in perfect bliss 

[00:31:58] Gina: or like watching over you or. 

[00:32:01] Cody: Yeah. Peeking 

[00:32:02] Gina: down over the clouds, staring down at you. 

[00:32:04] Cody: So this touches people very personally when you talk about this subject.

[00:32:09] So it's hard to do that delicately. Agreed. And you should do it delicately, but to me, I believe it's more of a waiting place pre heaven, so to speak, where we are in like a happy place. bliss type of thing. And we talked about it before the podcast is this Abraham's bosom type of terminology that is popular in Jewish tradition.

[00:32:35] And even looking at Jewish tradition, even what the disciples thought of heaven before was not like this place where you go to be with God immediately. They were aware of resurrection and what that meant. But even when Jesus was Telling them about what was going to happen, the idea that he would die and then be resurrected.

[00:32:56] They couldn't really grasp that and that he would do it before everybody else. They didn't really get that. They thought it was more of a community event as well. The second coming of what a lot of people believe. 

[00:33:09] Gina: If we're waiting for judgment the way that Revelation describes. And heaven is the prize after the judgment.

[00:33:17] I don't see personally how we could go straight to heaven when we die since the rapture hasn't happened. 

[00:33:24] Ben: So that's the big question. Is heaven the ultimate prize? 

[00:33:27] Gina: Do you want me to just lay it out on the table and tell you what I think? Sure. Because I, I believe that we die and we wait. And then once Jesus comes back, we get judged.

[00:33:40] And if we're judged that we have been saved, then we will go to heaven. And then we will go to the new earth. That's what I believe. It's hard to piece it all together in a way that makes sense with the little tiny bit that we have in scripture, reassuring us on these things, but that's what I believe. 

[00:33:58] Cody: No, and I think there's scripture to back that up.

[00:34:01] Jacob talks about mourning Joseph when he still thought Joseph was dead and eaten by wild animals, about mourning him down to Sheol. Sheol's usually directly translated to Hades, but there needs to be a separation here from Hades and what hell is, and we'll talk more about that in the next episode. But Sheol and Hades is not necessarily the eternal conscious torment that you realize until judgment happens.

[00:34:32] Gina: It's a peaceful rest. 

[00:34:33] Cody: For some. 

[00:34:34] Gina: Well, that's, I'm talking about believers that are going to heaven. 

[00:34:37] Cody: Yeah. So, and David also talks about going to Sheol and you could make the argument that they're just talking, you know, every man goes to Sheol, every man dies. Uh, but I think there's some Old Testament connection to this holding place as well.

[00:34:54] They, they believe that there was some sort of. in between before resurrection happened. 

[00:35:00] Ben: So my understanding of the term Sheol is that it literally translates to the grave. It's not referring to a place that you go, it's referring to the fact that you die. And at the time that they were using the term Sheol at first, in the earliest parts of the Old Testament, keep in mind, they'd only just been told what God's literal name was.

[00:35:21] So at this point, they didn't even know much about heaven at all. They didn't even know if heaven existed, and even up until the time of Christ there was debate on that fact. There were the chief priests, the Sadducees, the Pharisees. There was some argument as to whether or not angels existed or demons existed or dark spirits or spirits of any kind existed.

[00:35:39] So, there were a lot of things already up in the air prior to the time of Christ, and that is especially true at the time of Moses, as Moses was the first person to learn what God's actual name was. When we're pointing to times that far back, it's tough for me to to extrapolate more than just them saying they didn't know.

[00:36:01] They referred to God with a name that they didn't know what his name was. They knew he existed, they just didn't know his name, and so they called out a name in his place. And then finally he gave them the name. Eventually, God revealed more about his nature and about his kingdom, and he revealed more about heaven and about earth.

[00:36:18] Now, as far as whether or not we go to heaven immediately, there are a couple verses that seem to indicate this, but I'm not sold on it. So just giving them a, as a reference, there's Luke chapter 16, verses 22 to 23, the poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.

[00:36:46] So that was a parable that Jesus was telling. And we, as we've said so many times about this story specifically, this is a parable. And then there's also Luke chapter 23, verse 43. And he said to him, truly, I say to you, you will be with me in paradise today. This guy, the thief on the cross next to Jesus was that very day going to be with Jesus in paradise.

[00:37:21] The same word, Gan Eden. That Paul uses for the third heaven. Again, tough to extrapolate too much there. It could be that both the waiting place where you will be and heaven itself where God is are put under the same umbrella because they are beyond time and space. They're beyond the physical universe at that point I don't know if it matters too much if we're pedantic about it and say okay There are these two different places and they're both equally beyond the universe and you go to one to wait But then there's God in this other one You could just call them different layers of the same heaven if you wanted to But even if we don't even if we say that it's a separate thing altogether And we say that's the place that you wait.

[00:38:02] Or if we don't and we say that there isn't that place and you just go straight to heaven. Heaven, in the end, is not the place we are meant to be. The new heaven and the new earth is. So even heaven itself is the place we would wait if this waiting room didn't exist. So in one way or another I agree with you guys.

[00:38:20] Like whether it's a separate place that you wait or heaven itself is the place that we wait. We're waiting somewhere. 

[00:38:24] Gina: Yeah, it's not the final resting or waiting room. 

[00:38:28] Ben: Absolutely. See, it's not that I think we disagree or anything. It's just I don't, I feel like it's an argument of terms. Like it's just a semantic discussion.

[00:38:38] For 

[00:38:38] Cody: sure, it's semantics. And to be clear, the waiting place is nothing to do with purgatory. Yes. That is not at all what we're talking about here. 

[00:38:48] Ben: Yeah, actually, it might be a good idea for us to cover this a bit. It's not in our outline, but there is, uh, The kind of Catholic, Orthodox Christian belief in purgatory.

[00:38:58] In heaven there's this place called the Treasury of Merit. In this treasury, this great vault, and inside this vault, there's a collection of all of the various good deeds that have been done throughout all of history by all the saints, by all the good people, the heroes of the Bible, and beyond that. Your bad deeds deduct from this treasury.

[00:39:17] And if there are not enough good deeds to cover, Your bad deeds, you go to purgatory, and when you're in purgatory, and you're a believer, and you haven't died outside of grace, you stay there until you have suffered enough to where you can leave purgatory and then go into heaven, and you are purified by the process of suffering.

[00:39:36] And you can actually get out early by people giving indulgences to the church. Back in the day, this was done through giving money directly to the church. But people can say prayers to you and make offerings and whatnot and speed your suffering. There are a few issues I have with this, not the least of which is that if the whole point is that you're there to suffer for your sins, other people shouldn't be able to do something to get you out of it faster.

[00:40:00] I would agree with that. 

[00:40:02] Gina: I've talked about abusive relationships before. That's all I'm going to say. 

[00:40:07] Cody: Oh. 

[00:40:08] Gina: Like, it's not. No. 

[00:40:11] Ben: Okay. 

[00:40:11] Gina: You can't hold God in money, so. No. There you go. No, you 

[00:40:15] Ben: cannot. And to be fair, I don't Well, actually, I'm not even sure what the modern Catholic position is on it. I don't know if you still can offer, like, monetary offerings to the church, and that speeds along a recovery from purgatory.

[00:40:30] I don't know if that's the case anymore. I'd heard from some Catholics it's not, so I don't know, but 

[00:40:37] Cody: I 

[00:40:37] Ben: bet they wouldn't 

[00:40:37] Cody: shy away from you saying, hey, can I offer you this money for my brother who wasn't too good? 

[00:40:44] Ben: It certainly doesn't hurt. 

[00:40:45] Gina: I think it's just a sign of Our own grief and insecurity when we lose somebody that we're not certain did all of the right things.

[00:40:55] And I think that's why it's so important that we invest the time in them while they're alive. Because we're not promised tomorrow. If you want to beat purgatory, so to speak, then I think the best thing you can do is be the salt and the light that Christ called us to be and make sure that everybody in your life knows how much you love them and knows how much God loves them.

[00:41:16] What they choose to do with that is up to them. You don't get to influence that outside of your example, but at least you've lived in a way with them that is honoring to the Lord and glorifying to the Lord. I don't think that it's fair to take on the personal responsibility of somebody else's salvation.

[00:41:37] Ben: I do think there are, I agree with you, Gina. There are a lot of people who, once they lose a loved one, feel powerless and they want to be able to do something to help out. They want 

[00:41:48] Gina: to guarantee they're going to see them again. 

[00:41:50] Ben: Absolutely. And, or at the very least, Have this feeling like they can do something like they're not completely finished with their loved one.

[00:42:00] And so they can do something to help them out, do something in love to honor their memory and to do something that they know is actually going to help them. But in the end, I don't think that's really a healthy way to look at this. I don't think one, the question is whether or not it's even true. And I don't believe it's true.

[00:42:18] There's nothing in the Bible that specifically talks about believers going and suffering for their own sins. I believe genuinely that it flies in the face of Christ's sacrifice completely. What is the point of His sacrifice if you need to suffer for your own sins? He died for your sins. 

[00:42:33] Cody: I absolutely agree.

[00:42:34] Like, you're cheapening God's sacrifice at that point. 

[00:42:39] Gina: It doesn't change the fact that we will all be judged. Like, we will be, we know that, but Christ's sacrifice is sufficient. We acknowledge his sacrifice to be saved. Our deeds are irrelevant. 

[00:42:54] Cody: Mm hmm. Got something you want to say, Cody? I don't know if I would say deeds are irrelevant.

[00:42:58] I don't think that's what you meant. 

[00:42:59] Gina: But I'm talking about just salvation. Yeah. 

[00:43:03] Cody: Your deeds have no merit on salvation. Absolutely agree. Your actions are important, though. Absolutely. And I think you agree with that. Mm hmm. Absolutely. 

[00:43:11] Gina: That's why I believe. To live as the salt and the light, which I have tattooed on my arm, like

[00:43:22] But honestly like your only guarantee with somebody that you love passing away is Whether or not you had the courage to share the gospel with them, and I've seen that at work in my own life That's why I say that 

[00:43:37] Ben: Yeah, I think one of the toughest things and one of the greatest things about the Great Commission is that you are not responsible for someone else's salvation.

[00:43:45] It's not on you to get someone into heaven. That's on God. God didn't say that you are responsible for saving everyone in your family. What he did say is that you're supposed to go forth and make disciples of all nations. You're supposed to spread his word. 

[00:44:00] Gina: Through action and through word. Absolutely.

[00:44:02] Ben: Absolutely. The book of James makes it very clear that we're supposed to live in such a way where our faith produces action. And Paul makes it abundantly clear that we really need that faith in Christ. But Peter also talks about how, or is it Peter? Is it, was it Paul who talks about how Apollos, Paul saw, sowed Apollos water?

[00:44:22] Yeah. Yeah, I know. Coda's mentioned the verse a few times, and I thought it was actually a very good one. It's that ultimately the growth is unto God. That you may sow the seed for faith. But you're not the one who makes it grow. You're not even the one who waters it, necessarily. 

[00:44:39] Gina: And we serve a God of mercy and grace.

[00:44:42] We serve a jealous God. We serve a wrathful God, but we also serve a merciful and gracious God. And I think we have to remember that when we're grieving, God is close to the broken hearted and also God is close to the people who are dying. And a lot can happen in their heart between them and God that we don't know.

[00:45:03] And it's very challenging to say with finality, Oh, they were saved. Unless they lived a long life of knowing they were a Christian. Some people on their deathbed, like my sister, decided I want to be a Christian and Didn't have time to necessarily get dipped in water, but doesn't necessarily mean she's not saved We don't know for sure, but I believe that she's saved I believe that there are sinners that have chosen on their deathbed to follow jesus and For that very short moment that they chose to follow jesus that was sufficient.

[00:45:37] So We can't take it on ourselves, other people's salvation, while they're alive or after they've left. 

[00:45:45] Cody: That's good and biblical. 

[00:45:46] Ben: And I think that actually leads into a question I didn't include on this outline, but I think does need to be asked. How exactly do you get into heaven? 

[00:45:55] Cody: You tap your head, you rub your belly, and you spin in circles at the same time every day for an hour a day.

[00:46:01] Gina: Declare with your mouth that Christ is Lord. Like, genuinely, if you declare that Jesus is the Messiah, that he died for your sins, that he rose to heaven, all of those things are true. You will be saved, declare with your mouth and believe in your heart. 

[00:46:20] Ben: But if you were like a genuinely awful person, like let's say that Adolf Hitler himself in his last few moments reflected on everything and realized the error of his ways and said, I am a sinner, Jesus saved me.

[00:46:33] And then he died. Would he have gone to heaven? 

[00:46:36] Cody: Ben just slapped you with one of the hardest, like atheist questions nowadays. 

[00:46:43] Gina: It's the same thing. Like. There's another one. I'm trying to remember exactly how it's phrased. So, it's like Judas walking with Jesus. Like, he knew that he was going to betray him and murder him, but he still walked side by side with Jesus.

[00:47:01] I don't think Jesus came for these, like, perfect, beautiful people who were like, whoop oo, Jesus. I think that Jesus came for the lost and the people who needed his example. And if we were really humble and able to put away our pride, we would see that there's parts of us that are really disgusting and weird and disturbing that need that savior.

[00:47:25] Is it possible for Adolf Hitler or any other horrible person in our world to be saved at the very last second? Yeah, I just said that about my own sister. So I, I do believe that. I just, I also believe personally, and I know that this isn't necessarily biblical, I do believe that there has to be an element of repentance for something like that.

[00:47:48] So if Adolf Hitler was on his deathbed and he said, help me, Jesus, or I really want to go to heaven, but I'm not sorry. I don't know that God would feel the same way. Like, I think repentance is an element. 

[00:48:04] Cody: Oh, absolutely. I was going to bring that up if you didn't. 

[00:48:07] Gina: Yeah. 

[00:48:08] Cody: Realizing that you're a sinner. 

[00:48:11] Gina: And you need saved.

[00:48:13] Cody: Yeah. You have nothing but filthy rags to present, I think, is part of the salvation process. 

[00:48:22] Ben: I think where a lot of people get hung up in this subject is the idea that. From the atheist perspective, when they ask this question, they're generally thinking, okay, all you need to do is believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that God exists.

[00:48:38] And if you do that, then suddenly you go to heaven. 

[00:48:42] Gina: He's not Santa Claus. 

[00:48:43] Ben: No. That's not even what the Bible says. In the book of James, it says you believe there is one God, good. Even the devil believes that and shudders. The point is not simply that you believe. The point is that you accept, that you turn and repent, that you admit that you need him.

[00:49:00] Gina: But the element of repentance is not. stressed heavily enough in our culture. 

[00:49:05] Ben: Agreed. I think that In many ways I actually do appreciate when atheists ask this question because it is highlighting the issue with our modern culture Where a lot of people view jesus as the get out of hell free card as the go to heaven free card Where it's just okay.

[00:49:21] I just believe that jesus exists and he loves me Therefore he's going to bring me into heaven. What 

[00:49:25] Gina: personal sacrifice does that really present to you if you're just like, okay Yeah, he's real Sure. I agree. Let me in. 

[00:49:33] Cody: It sucks from the human perspective. This is an ethic and moral argument that's brought up here because you can be an absolute terrible person and then on your deathbed, turn your ways and repent.

[00:49:46] But it's also. Some of the hard pill Christians have to swallow, too, is that, accepting that, because that's what Bible teaches. Like, there's lots of scripture. The prodigal son is one of them that kind of teaches this theory, but even more so the parable of the workers. all getting the same wage. Like, people can come in almost at the end of the day and still get paid the same as the people who were working the entire day.

[00:50:15] Does it seem fair? Not really, no. 

[00:50:18] Gina: But you look at, like, Paul, who wrote a huge chunk of the New Testament, who was a murderer and a Pharisee and just an all around horrible person to Christians. Did he deserve in his time to be saved and to be Somebody who is a major author and contributor to the New Testament.

[00:50:36] Did the religious people back then of Christianity believe that Paul deserved it? Obviously, they listened to him. If he can be redeemed, anybody can be redeemed. 

[00:50:45] Ben: And Paul always called himself the worst of sinners. That's what God did for him. He saved him. And he knew that he needed to be saved. And so if Paul, calling himself the worst of sinners, could be someone who could be saved, then obviously someone like Adolf Hitler could be too.

[00:51:01] And the big thing here is the verse in the Bible that says, If any man be in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away. You are not the same person. Whatever you were before, that's not who you are after you turn to Christ. 

[00:51:18] Gina: There are ugly horrible things even Christians have done like look at Ravi Zacharias.

[00:51:24] He's he did not end well But his ministry still changed millions of people's lives for the better. So like, you can't, as a human being, determine somebody else's salvation because it's something that happens internally between a person and God. 

[00:51:44] Ben: Yeah, I was actually just about to ask that as a follow up question.

[00:51:47] Can we even know if someone else has gotten into heaven? 

[00:51:50] Gina: No. 

[00:51:51] Cody: Ultimately, I don't think so. Because scripture talks a lot about the secret matters of the heart and people, other people not being able to know the depths of the humans. So you can see somebody on the outside that has lots of fruit, but does that necessarily mean they're going to heaven now?

[00:52:13] Ben: No. I do think, just speaking from my own personal experience and the experience of my family and I think, to an extent, your guys experience, you can receive assurance from God that individual people, born or unborn, or whatever stage of their life they happen to be in when they die, you can receive assurance from God that he's with them.

[00:52:32] Gina: Definitely. I remember last year when my uncle died. Feeling the Holy Spirit in the room, it was like a crazy feeling of something pressing down on the air pressure in the room, like it was a sense of like weight, but not burden and compassion, like overwhelming compassion and just knowing, like through that peace and that presence that as he passed, like that the Lord came and took him.

[00:53:00] But it's not something that other people would hear and be like, Oh, I understand that. You have to live through something like that. Or even like having a vision or a dream, because I know you and I have both had visions of our loved ones with the Lord. 

[00:53:15] Ben: Yeah, for me, there was a period of time, I don't remember exactly how long it was after my brother died, but there was a point where, I had been sleeping, and I dreamed of heaven, and I dreamed of speaking with my brother.

[00:53:28] And it was such a strange and vivid, and yet at the same time, ethereal dream. And when I was coming out of it, it felt like I was literally coming back into my body, and I was aware of the fact that I had been sleeping, or at least my body was sleeping. It's tough to describe. And I wanted to go back, and I couldn't go back.

[00:53:48] It was such a strange state to be in, and I've never had a dream like it before, then, or after. And that doesn't mean that what I saw in the dream was true, or that it really was from the Lord, or that it was anything. And yet, it's tough for me to deny what I saw, and it's tough for me to say that it wasn't some measure of assurance from God that my brother was with God in heaven.

[00:54:08] Now, I don't extrapolate any theology from what I saw or what I remember, and I think it's important for us to, to remember that we need first and foremost to interpret what it is that we see or experience through the lens of scripture. That's our solid rock, our canon, the measuring rod. But I do absolutely think.

[00:54:28] That even if you don't have, that sometimes there are people who, like you said, you're in the room with someone when they die, and you can feel the presence of the spirit. Is the spirit really showing up to, to carry someone off to heaven, but then bring them straight to hell? I don't believe so. Again, that's not to say that you can be 100 percent certain, just like you can't be 100 percent certain of anything.

[00:54:49] But I do think that the Lord, through the Spirit, one way or another, can and does frequently give people assurance. 

[00:54:56] Gina: If I hadn't had the courage to talk to my uncle about salvation before he went into a coma, I wouldn't have the reassurance that I do. God gave me an assignment. And when I traveled to visit my uncle and care for him, he said, make sure that you share with him.

[00:55:14] And I did. And we prayed together and I knew that through that prayer, he was secure. And that was the reassurance I needed to live with myself after the fact and have no regret. And God prepared me for that because he knew that I would be upset if I didn't do it. Both of my biological parents died before I had that chance, and I regretted not having the courage to reach out as a stranger, to say, hey, this is who I am, and this is who I love.

[00:55:43] The Lord, and he gave me instructions on how to do it when I had the chance. So I did, and I have no regrets and I'll never do it different because he gave me instructions. That's why I share the way that I do, but we don't know. We don't have a contract that God mails us like a death certificate. That's heaven or hell check.

[00:56:05] Like it doesn't work like that. It's a lot of faith and belief and study and knowing what you can, but it's still a mystery. And whether they're in heaven or waiting room or whatever, like it's 

[00:56:21] Cody: It doesn't matter. God gives you personal revelation, as Ben mentioned. It's not something you build theology on, but God loves you and wants to comfort you and reassure you.

[00:56:32] And I don't think there's anything wrong with that. You know, pouring into, you know, when we lost our three babies. Gina had a similar instance where she saw God carry them to heaven, and there's nothing wrong with believing that's exactly what happened. And it might not be the case when we're on the other side, but it, honestly, I don't think it'll matter at that point.

[00:56:59] Gina: He's given me so much assurance about that, plus myself, so the vision that I had with our babies was I was holding them too tight, and I wasn't letting them go, and he was like, Gina, you have to let them go. So he, his giant hand came out of the sky in this vision, and he asked me, like, put the babies in my hand, and I did.

[00:57:20] And he carried them up into the sky. And there were other instances where I had visions where he was like, you gave me your dead babies, but not your living ones. And so we went through this tug of war in this vision where I was like, I can't give them to you. And He was like talking me through it, and then at the end of it, it was like I don't want to be separate from them or from you, and he was like, you need to get in my hand too.

[00:57:49] It's not necessarily even that God was reassuring me that my babies were going to heaven. It's that my babies are His, and I am His, and sometimes I just have to trust Him. I do believe they're in heaven. 

[00:58:00] Ben: No matter what, they're with the Lord. 

[00:58:02] Gina: Exactly. And they are His, just like us. 

[00:58:06] Ben: And I think all of the biggest lessons that we learn as we go through our lives on earth and our walks with Christ is we constantly have to face up to the repercussions of what it is that we believe.

[00:58:19] We have to find out what it means to truly trust the Lord with everything. And once we finally do, and we go beyond that head knowledge that it's something we should do, and we finally cross that line and go into actually doing it, Then we find that piece that surpasses all understanding. And we finally understand why it is that God asks us to do it.

[00:58:39] And it's a very long and it's a very rough process, it's like what Cody's always talking about with sanctification. It, it, it is, it's a rough process, but it's a worthwhile thing to do. 

[00:58:49] Gina: I agree. I put some questions at the end. I don't know. Yeah, I 

[00:58:53] Ben: noticed that. I think it actually might be nice to just ask some miscellaneous questions here.

[00:58:56] Gina: Okay. Do you want me, I'll ask them. Yeah, 

[00:58:59] Ben: go for it. 

[00:59:01] Gina: Are certain people in heaven now while everyone else is waiting? For example, Enoch and Elijah. 

[00:59:09] Ben: I think no matter what, even if we go with, like, the waiting room approach, where there's a place where everyone else waits to be judged, I genuinely believe that both Enoch and Elijah are the two witnesses that are referenced in the book of Revelation.

[00:59:22] I understand there's some argument about that, but they're the only two people who never died. So, it makes the most sense to me that they are going to be the two witnesses that show up at the time of the end, because not only are they physical witnesses to God and his glory, but it seems that all of us, including Christ himself, owe life a death.

[00:59:44] And so it makes the most sense to me that since Elijah never died and Enoch never died but were brought up into heaven, that at some point they're going to die. So I understand there's a lot of argument there. Pretty much everyone agrees that Elijah is going to be one of the two witnesses. It's just, whether it's Enoch or Moses, it seems to be some argument there.

[01:00:02] But regardless, in order for those two to be witnesses, they have to witness. So they wouldn't be simply in the waiting area with everyone else. I believe they genuinely have to be witnesses to God himself and his glory. So I would say no matter what, they're with God, whether you subscribe to the waiting room approach to heaven or the in God's presence approach to heaven.

[01:00:26] Gina: Do you have any thoughts? 

[01:00:28] Cody: Gariffa and like second temple literature has a lot on these two, especially Enoch. And, like, their walk with God, but, uh, the idea that they're in is more of, like, an Eden setting. Again, I agree with Ben, it doesn't really matter whether they're in heaven or in a holding spot. 

[01:00:50] Gina: Okay, my next question, I'm jumping back up to the top, but My next question, because these are all questions that I've had as I've learned that maybe you guys haven't thought about, I don't know, but it's stuff that I've heard taught in sermons that I've been like, eh, I don't like.

[01:01:08] So does heaven have special rooms and floors for people who are extra special to God? 

[01:01:17] Ben: I don't know where, do you remember where they taught that from? 

[01:01:20] Gina: It's not in the Bible. It says that the house has many rooms and some people, some KJV translates it to mansions. So, some people believe that everybody gets a mansion, and some people believe that there's different levels of heaven that more pious and special people get to go to, and that's not anywhere in the Bible.

[01:01:40] Cody: There's lots of places that I think that's pulled from and where. They get that train of thought from like storing up treasures in heaven and stuff I think is one of the ones that's popularly used for that train of thought. That's a tough one for me because I don't really know where I believe because you have different scripture where we're going to be judging the angels and there's a great article by, or a dissertation by, his name's Burnett, I can't remember his first name right now.

[01:02:13] But basically he talks about the Abrahamic covenant and how the, you'll be like the sand, but like the stars of the sky as well. It's a quantitative and qualitative covenant where he's also going to be like the angels, the stars in the sky. And, judge them. And it's a really great dissertation, but I think a lot of that is pulled into there.

[01:02:37] And I really don't know what I believe on that. Do I think there will be different levels of people's responsibility on new earth? Yes. Do I think some people are going to have a Joel Osteen 20, 000 square foot mansion while other people are living in hovels? I don't really know. 

[01:02:55] Gina: If it's in heaven, but it's a cardboard box, at least you made it.

[01:02:59] Ben: Yeah. That is true. You should count your blessings, really. The Bible does talk about, in two different places, really, people having different honor. So there's the 24 elders that sit on the thrones with God, but that's only 24 people. And there's also the 144, 000 from each tribe of Israel. So those are also people who have greater honor.

[01:03:23] So we have 24 and then 144, 000 that are in heaven and that God seems to have set aside for a special purpose. So not everyone is going to have the same measure of honor in heaven. But when you look at the qualifications for being one of the group of the 144, 000 is people who've never had relations with a woman or anything.

[01:03:45] And they're people who are basically spotless, the best that you could possibly be. They're people who sacrificed a lot on earth. And Jesus himself said that whoever sacrifices, like, however much you have sacrificed on earth, you shall receive much greater in heaven. And there are many ways to take that, but in taking in some total, the people who gave everything, literally everything, like their bodies, their hearts, their minds, everything to God, God gives infinitely more back to them and they have greater authority.

[01:04:15] Now, as far as whether that translates into great mansions and stuff, I think that's actually completely missing the point. The point is never that you get a Range Rover in heaven and everyone else gets maybe a Mercedes S class. Who knows? Like 

[01:04:30] Gina: Honda Accord 

[01:04:32] Ben: because we all have to be in one accord. We all have to share it.

[01:04:36] They get the Range Rover, but everyone else in heaven has to be in one accord. That's right. 

[01:04:40] Gina: I just need to go to the grocery store. I'll be right 

[01:04:44] Ben: back. But I think it's a completely wrong way of looking at it in terms of physical things, like actual possessions. The only thing that I can remember that I think of as far as what people have is the crowns that the Bible talks about us having, and we surrender those to God.

[01:05:04] The one thing that it seems that we have that is directly proportional to all the things that we did, that we have in greater abundance than other people, we surrender back to God in the end anyway. What the honor that God gives us is being able to give more to him at the end again I think it is the complete wrong way of looking at that that some people have we're like, yeah I'm gonna have a bigger house and everyone else No, I think you're gonna have the smallest house if we go on based on houses But no, that's not it at all 

[01:05:31] Gina: the penthouse on the top floor of heaven 

[01:05:33] Ben: But I'm with you Cody.

[01:05:35] I think that there are definitely gonna be people who have more responsibility But as far as that translates to a mansion, that's the wrong way of looking at it. 

[01:05:43] Gina: The honor and the glory is the Lord's. If we're to worship Him, we cannot be worshiping man. And, or God's creation, it has to be God Himself and His Son.

[01:05:56] So, having honors because of the life on earth that we're not even sure we're going to remember in heaven. Like, it's silly to me, but that's why I asked, because some people, like, that's the hill they want to die on, and I don't like it. 

[01:06:12] Ben: I think there are a lot of people who desperately want to have there be actual, like, great monetary rewards that we can understand in heaven, and that's not what God wants to offer you, and that's not what God wants you to focus on.

[01:06:24] Cody: Yeah. For my sake, I hope there's not, cause like, how can you compete with Paul or any of these early church fathers or monks? I hope there's not. 

[01:06:35] Ben: Like Paul drives up in his Corvette, he's like, how you doing, holy scrubs? 

[01:06:40] Gina: No. 

[01:06:40] Ben: Get good, losers. 

[01:06:43] Gina: Do better. 

[01:06:44] Cody: Do better. 

[01:06:46] Gina: That was like a whole off topic, but anyway, 

[01:06:49] Cody: yeah, that's a good one.

[01:06:51] The competitive side of me doesn't want that to happen. I'm with you on that. 

[01:06:55] Gina: Okay. My last question that I think I have is, so Jesus does a lot of talking about how he's preparing a new earth and a new heaven. The people who lived before Jesus, will they go to heaven? And where was God storing their souls previously?

[01:07:16] Because it wasn't ready, it wasn't prepared. 

[01:07:19] Ben: The whole point about Christ saying that he goes to prepare a place for us is that's the new heaven. That's the new earth. I don't think he was going to prepare the regular heaven. And then while that's being prepared, he's also preparing the new heaven, a new, there's a lot of construction in heaven.

[01:07:32] Like it's just, it's crazy. Like they got that scaffolding everywhere. Like during that council scene, I'm pretty sure there was like just random ladders and spackle, like buckets of spackle all over the place and construction noises and stuff. 

[01:07:45] Cody: Probably. Yeah. It sounds like there's lots of construction.

[01:07:48] Ben: But this is actually a very common question, and it's a good one. Did the people who lived before Jesus go to hell, or did they go to heaven? The closest thing I think that we get to an answer is, I believe, in 1 Peter. Yeah, it's 1 Peter 4, verse 6. For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead.

[01:08:12] So that they might be judged according to human standards in regards to the body. It's important to not invest too much into that one specific scripture. Because that's a lot of theology to try to extrapolate just from one part of the Bible. And it might not even be referring to the people who lived before Christ specifically.

[01:08:30] However, there are other parts in the Bible that talks about how Jesus died once for all. For all implies the people who lived prior to him. So, it does make sense to me in taking that into account, and the verse in 1 Peter, that it seems to me Christ's sacrifice really was once for all time. And that for the people who died prior to his sacrifice, they were told about his sacrifice.

[01:08:56] And they were given a chance, just like we have, to accept and to repent. Now, who knows exactly how that works? And I think that this is actually probably one of the best examples of why there probably is some kind of waiting place. Because were all of these people in heaven? Or were there someplace else, some kind of waiting place?

[01:09:11] It could be that they were in heaven. It could be that they were all in hell. And then Christ dragged them all up from hell and then told them about his sacrifice. And then they fully understanding what exactly it is that their sins wrought them were able to make a decision. Who knows? We're not told.

[01:09:28] And there are a lot of implications no matter what direction you take, but I do genuinely believe that Christ's sacrifice included the people who came before him. 

[01:09:35] Cody: I would agree with that. I do think this is one of the reasons I lean more towards a holding place or a place before the place. That, and there's that big question of where did Jesus go when he died then, because you don't read about his ascension until three days later.

[01:09:53] Ben: That was a bodily ascension. 

[01:09:55] Cody: Yeah. 

[01:09:55] Ben: And the thing is that he could ascend in spirit into heaven, and then he had to be somewhere. So he either was in heaven or he was in the holding place or he was in hell. He could have been in all three places. He could have been in just one of them. Like the point is, is that.

[01:10:10] Like, no matter what, you face the same kind of interpretation. 

[01:10:13] Cody: Yeah, but did he go die, go to heaven, come back in body, resurrect, go back to heaven? Again, like in body, I don't know, there's a lot going on there. No 

[01:10:25] Ben: matter what, there's a lot going on. But I'm with you. It does make sense to an extent. And I'm not married to any one particular interpretation.

[01:10:32] The reality is we just don't know. And I'm okay not knowing. Yeah. 

[01:10:36] Gina: You just gotta have faith. You just gotta 

[01:10:39] Ben: believe. Gotta have faith. Cody hates that. I do. I gotta have faith. The faith. Not that. The answer is you just gotta believe. No, I agree. It is a tough pill to swallow no matter what. But honestly, that seems to be one of the biggest takeaways from the Book of Job.

[01:10:58] It's that you gotta trust that he is God. And that's the example that we were given from Elijah. Be still and know that I am God. And it sucks, but it does seem like that's the biggest lesson no matter what that God wants us to take away, because the truth is we're not always going to have an answer. 

[01:11:14] Gina: But we know the nature of God, we know His characteristics.

[01:11:18] He has been described and we have experienced Him. We can trust Him. We have to know that. If you are like sitting through this episode and really wrestling with it, you should probably evaluate through wise counsel and discipleship what you're creating God's identity to be in your mind, because you will feel peace when His identity is.

[01:11:45] Correctly ordered in your mind. Thank you so much for taking the time to listen to our podcast today. If you liked what you heard, please feel free to subscribe and share and leave a positive review. And if you would like to connect with us on social media, you can do so on Instagram and Facebook at the Logic of God.

[01:12:05] You can also send us an email at main.thelogicofgod@gmail.com. Thanks again for listening. We hope you have a great day.

What Is Spiritual Warfare?

[00:00:00] Cody: Hi, thank you for tuning in to the Logic of God podcast. I'm Cody. 


[00:00:14] Gina: I'm Gina. 


[00:00:15] Cody: And I'm Ben. If you're returning, thank you for coming back, and if you are a new guest, welcome. 


[00:00:36] Gina: We talked a little bit about everything is spiritual warfare. What about everything is a sign that Jesus is coming back? 


[00:00:44] Cody: Oh that hold on. Let me put my tinfoil hat on Honestly, do you 


[00:00:48] Gina: want to cover that during the heaven and hell one or at a different time? 


[00:00:52] Ben: we can always cover it again if you feel the need to but as far as My opinion on it every single generation from the time of christ to now has believed that it was the end I believe as they did I believe that it's very possible. 


[00:01:07] We are living in the time of the end You And every generation was instructed, we have to live as if that's the case. The parable of the virgins with their oil lamps. You have to keep your lamps trimmed and burning. You have to have that extra oil. You have to live as if your prince is coming. 


[00:01:24] Gina: Aw. We don't hear that one very often. 


[00:01:27] It's a good one. It 


[00:01:28] Ben: is a good one. And that's the truth. It may be disheartening. It may be a source of mockery and ridicule for those who don't believe, but it's the truth. Every generation has believed it was their time. And I believe the same. And we all have to live as if that's the case. 


[00:01:45] Gina: I think we all hope it's the case. 


[00:01:47] Because every generation has been like, can it really get worse? 


[00:01:52] Ben: Yep. And humanity's 


[00:01:53] Gina: met. 


[00:01:54] Ben: It's funny because I was talking with my parents a few years ago, talking about how bad things were getting, and we were curious if things could get worse, and we couldn't picture it. And then every year after that, it has gotten worse. 


[00:02:06] And we've had the same conversation many times. And we, more recently, we've been more musing about the fact that we could have never pictured things becoming the way that they are now. And, obviously, things can get worse. You'd think we would have learned the lesson. Things can always get worse. The question is, when do you hit rock bottom? 


[00:02:23] When do you hit the point of no return? 


[00:02:26] Gina: When the world is on fire and you're too late. 


[00:02:29] Ben: Essentially, yeah. But every generation has had their own fair share of issues. I'm sure the people who lived at the first World War thought it was the worst thing ever. And you got people like A. A. Milne, who's the guy who wrote Winnie the Pooh, who also wrote a book about how he just wished no one would fight ever again. 


[00:02:46] And then the whole world decided actively that they just would never fight again, except Germany, who decided, nah, they needed World War the sequel. And drag the rest of the world into World War the Sequel. Every generation has been faced with true horror. It can always get worse. And in fact, we're promised in the Book of Revelation that it will get worse. 


[00:03:05] But until that time comes, the hour or day, no one knows. 


[00:03:10] Gina: I woke up this morning and I was like, Is that you, Jesus? Please? We've made it to point three. I don't know if it even bears talking about. It's the marriage of Satan and escaping the demonic. 


[00:03:28] Ben: I think there are all kinds of roads that lead to this. 


[00:03:32] There's some people who point at certain things like video games, and they say, oh, because you played Doom 3, obviously you're possessed by the devil. The devil's in the video game. The devil's in the movies. 


[00:03:43] Gina: No, now they're saying that it's in programming behind the screen, and it's flashes 


[00:03:48] Ben: AI. 


[00:03:50] Gina: Brainwashing. 


[00:03:52] Ben: The thing is There, there's all kinds of programming on TV, and on the internet, I would say is absolutely terrible for you and you should never watch. That doesn't mean that I think that people who watch it are possessed by the devil. I think there's programs like Game of Thrones, and there were plenty of absolutely horrible, Scenes in there that a lot of people found very titillating and would have been very enticing and as a result would have been very wrong. 


[00:04:19] But just because people watch it doesn't mean that they're of the devil. I think it's just not a healthy thing to do or to focus on. Actual entertaining of the devil, let's say like a direct appeal to him, is something different. That doesn't mean, however, that you shouldn't be careful about what you take in. 


[00:04:37] Gina: I did want to ask you personally a question. Should we avoid New age healing, if it is scientifically proven to work, even like salt rooms, 


[00:04:49] Ben: as far as salt, there's literally a salt spot that my, uh, brother in law and my sister ran. And as far as that goes, I wouldn't have called it new age. There were certainly people who came there who treated it as new age, but my sister and my brother in law didn't treat it as that. 


[00:05:04] And there were actual scientific reasons for why the salt treatments would work. Obviously salt has been used as a treatment for. Legitimate injuries for a very long time. If you have a big gaping wound and you throw a whole bunch of salt in it, it dehydrates it, it kills all the bacteria and allows you to heal much faster. 


[00:05:20] Salt is helpful. However, there are people who add a spiritual dimension to it. And so if the idea is that, let's say there's someone who Offers you a coupon to a salt spa. Should you automatically say no? No. However, if this is a crazy Wiccan healer who says I want you to come with me to the salt spa so that we can Explore the the astral plane and go throughout the universe and there were people like that who went to my brother in law And my sister's salt spa. 


[00:05:47] You sound like my 


[00:05:47] mom 


[00:05:48] Ben: I yeah, i'm not pulling this out of nowhere that stuff. There are people who believe in that stuff If someone like that offers you anything, say no. There are all kinds of people who will take the most mundane, simple things and try to add spirit to it as flavor. 


[00:06:04] Gina: So what do you think about vibrational healing? 


[00:06:08] Do you know what that is? 


[00:06:09] Ben: Uh, 


[00:06:10] Gina: it's like where you have a bowl with a mallet and you like, it's makes noise and you can go in a circle around the edge. And there's all kinds of different like alternative healing. And I'm just curious, should Christians just blanket avoid them, or if they actually are scientifically proven to work, is it something that would be useful that wouldn't be considered bad? 


[00:06:34] Cody: My opinion on this is, if it's scientifically proven, then I don't really think it's wrong. The vibrational healing stuff is really cool as far as God's creatures, cats, the reason that they purr and the frequency that they purr at is actually healing to their body. That's how they found a lot of this vibrational healing stuff. 


[00:06:57] So there, there is stuff to frequency and its ability to heal scientifically. But if you're going into it because you think that, That's going to align your chakras or whatever, then you're not doing it for the right reason. 


[00:07:14] Gina: So it's a bad intention. 


[00:07:15] Cody: I think so. 


[00:07:17] Gina: I, I agree with you. I just wanted to talk about it because like, I'm going down a homeopathic route a little bit with our family and a lot of the doctors claim to be Christian, but also have these like chakra aligning weird things that they do. 


[00:07:34] And it's like, they're trying to cater to both. And I've been thinking about it. 


[00:07:40] Cody: Oh, it's like yoga. Some people think it's absolutely evil and opens you up to demons. I don't think that. I used to stretch and do yoga poses that I didn't even know were yoga poses, but stretched certain parts of my body. And I don't think I was open, opening myself up for demons when I was doing that. 


[00:08:02] Ben: Agreed. It's all about the attitude with which you approach them. As far as a lot of these homeopathic cures and whatnot, as a general rule, I am incredibly skeptical of pretty much all of them. 


[00:08:12] Mm hmm. 


[00:08:13] Ben: And with good reason. Having been a part of Assault Spa, there are always tons of people who are coming in and talking about all sorts of crazy nonsense. 


[00:08:22] There are two different branches when people talk about scientifically proven. There's empiricism and then there's actual. Pure statistical, mathematical, proven science. As far as empirical, where it's just, you can interview a whole bunch of people and find out what they think. Obviously, you can do a scientific empirical study on just about anything. 


[00:08:43] You could do a scientific empirical study on, say, the effects of witchcraft on healing, and you could find out if it succeeds. If scientifically, Witchcraft was proven to heal people. I would say don't do it anyway. I don't think science is the line across which we should set this. The idea is, what is the attitude with which you are approaching this? 


[00:09:05] It's the same thing with food sacrifice to idols, and I know I reference that verse all the time, but it really is a great point to make. For a lot of these issues that so many Christians choose as the hill to die on. If it's literally food that was sacrificed to idols and Paul says, It's okay, it's food. 


[00:09:24] The question is, with what attitude are you approaching this and what is the effect? Same thing here. What is the attitude with which you're approaching these treatments and what is the effect? Now, setting that aspect aside, the, the spiritual, there's also the, is this going to work? That's a separate question. 


[00:09:41] And that is something you need to take up with your doctor. I don't know. Oh yeah, no, I'm not asking 


[00:09:46] Gina: that. I'm really asking because there are several doctors that I'm talking to about different things that are more about. overall health, not targeting specific health problems. And some of them are suggesting participating in things that I know my mom does as a part of her rituals that are in the occult. 


[00:10:08] And I felt very offended and triggered that they even offered those things to me because I've always associated them with darkness and evil. And I'm seeing in some people, Aspects where I have prejudices against things that my mom just does and may or may not be spiritual. And I think I'm giving a little too much credit. 


[00:10:31] So that's why I was asking. 


[00:10:32] Ben: Potentially. It is also worth keeping in mind that a lot of these alternative medicines, let's say, do attract a certain crowd. 


[00:10:42] Gina: Right. 


[00:10:42] Ben: And thus you need to be very careful. Cautious of that and plus just my backgrounds in physics most of these things as far as I can tell don't work 


[00:10:50] Gina: and it's not that I would even entertain doing them because I know that they're a waste of money and It's like body drumming, like weird, like weirdo stuff, like nudist colony. 


[00:11:00] Like I would never go to stuff. And so I'm not saying I would do it. I just, it's had me processing lately. And I was just curious what your thoughts were since you worked in a salt spa. 


[00:11:11] Cody: What about the opposite side of that and the Christian realm, refusing any form of medical treatment? Because God will heal you if he chooses to. 


[00:11:23] Ben: He can heal you through physical means. 


[00:11:26] Gina: Or you can go and be with him, which is like the ultimate healing. 


[00:11:31] Ben: Yeah, so like this kind of brings up the story I was once told of a guy who was on a roof, and there's a flood. And then there's a boat that comes by, and the boat's like, Hey, do you need help? And he's like, No, God will save me. 


[00:11:44] And the boat's okay, and then it goes away. And then, yeah, there's a helicopter that comes by and it drops a ladder down and says, Hey, do you need help? No, God'll save me. And then, yeah, the water's up to his neck and his whole house is completely underwater and he's just swimming there. And then another boat comes by and says, Hey, you need some help? 


[00:12:00] No, God'll save me. And then eventually he drowns, and then he comes face to face with God and he's like, Why didn't you save me? And God said, What are you talking about? I sent three people to save you and you said no. For me, a lot of this is people trying to control the way in which God will heal them. 


[00:12:18] They don't want to go to a hospital, they want God to miraculously heal their body. And you can't force God to do anything to you. 


[00:12:25] Cody: Thou shalt not put the Lord your God to the test. 


[00:12:28] Ben: It's a bit like saying, God gave me a certain base level of strength, therefore I will not do any strength training. Or God gave me a certain amount of knowledge, and any knowledge that I would receive is what God wants me to have, so I'm not gonna go read books. 


[00:12:41] I don't think it's a consistent worldview. I don't think that it works. 


[00:12:46] Gina: We've seen it not work and the people that we've seen it not work with have all come to the conclusion that God wanted them to seek medical treatment because they discipled nurses and other patients. They built their testimony and developed courage that they didn't have before. 


[00:13:05] They ended up perfectly healthy with no more problems to worry about and the things that they were afraid of happening because they were like Catastrophizing in their mind didn't end up happening So they took a leap of faith in getting this medical intervention that made them uncomfortable temporarily, but ultimately saved their lives and potentially impacted other people's eternity through salvation. 


[00:13:31] That's more meaningful than the like, ta da! 


[00:13:34] Ben: It is. And honestly, I think this is, it doesn't just apply to the field of medicine. I think there's a big temptation with a lot of Christians to say, God did X, therefore, I'm not going to do anything. For people who are seeking a husband or a wife, they'll say, God will bring in somebody just because they don't want to go through the effort of meeting people and heartbreak and all that. 


[00:13:56] It's just, no, God loves me. Therefore, God will bring the right person and not have to put any effort into it. And that's a very tempting way of looking at it. If I'm honest, that was the way I looked at it for a long time. I just didn't want to bother with it, but that's not the way that God commands us to live. 


[00:14:12] Cody: It's hard not to bring up Calvinism right now. 


[00:14:15] Gina: I was just thinking how we have this empty chair. 


[00:14:19] Ben: Thanks, Gina. 


[00:14:20] Gina: She's coming. I'm not a Calvinist. She's on a KJV. I'm on a KJV. So how can we escape the demonic? Do we want to go there? 


[00:14:30] Ben: I think it's about time. 


[00:14:32] Gina: Okay. Exorcisms. For everyone. 


[00:14:37] Ben: To be clear, exorcisms are a thing. 


[00:14:39] They are shown to have happened in the New Testament. And there are times where it is called for. Okay. But it's not as if that's the rule. That seems to be the exception. And there are times where people are just struggling with actual, just legitimate mental health issues. And thus, they need to be treated as such. 


[00:14:58] And treating them as if they're possessed by a demon is actually not going to be very helpful for them. 


[00:15:04] Gina: Definitely. 


[00:15:06] Ben: On the flip side, there are a lot of churches these days who have gone so far in the opposite direction that they're actually terrified of treating anything as spirit. They're just like, look, we have a lot of counselors. 


[00:15:18] We have a lot of great services that they don't have anything. Or they don't, they'll have literally nothing. They just hope that somebody comes in and takes care of it. 


[00:15:26] Gina: Or that you'll leave. 


[00:15:27] Ben: But more often than not, it seems to be the three different tiers. Either at the lowest tier, they just have no clue. 


[00:15:31] There's nothing. Next tier up is that maybe they have some connection with social services. They have some mental health professionals. Some people they can reference you to. But as far as like actual spiritual service. You are being demonically oppressed, more likely, or possibly you know someone who is possessed. 


[00:15:49] They have no clue what to do. Go to the Catholic church, they might have something for you. But a Protestant church, not so much. However, if you go to certain churches like Pentecostals, oh, they will gladly cast a demon out for you. They can't wait. They're just sitting on the edges of their chairs, sitting in the pews, just hoping someone bursts through those doors and says, I got a demon! 


[00:16:09] God bless them. They can't wait to be involved in that kind of thing. 


[00:16:12] Gina: We have a couple of friends that are very enthusiastic about That type of thing. And I've never personally, I I've seen what I grew up around, but I've never seen the Christian side of it. 


[00:16:25] Cody: There's crazy and Christian side of it. Only 


[00:16:28] Gina: thing I've ever seen is when we accidentally went to the Pentecostal church and we didn't know it was a Pentecostal church. 


[00:16:34] And there was like, there were, I think three people literally intentionally beating their head against pews. And that was as close as I've ever gotten. So. I was scared and never went back. 


[00:16:47] Ben: Can't blame you. 


[00:16:48] Gina: They weren't friendly either. They were like very into it and then they all left and they didn't talk to each other at the end. 


[00:16:54] Cody: What do you say? The Holy Spirit stays there. It doesn't follow them home. 


[00:16:58] Gina: Oh, it's like the Holy ground. Like you were doing in school. 


[00:17:01] Cody: Oh yeah. 


[00:17:03] Ben: Oh, 


[00:17:03] Gina: sorry. Way off. 


[00:17:05] Ben: No, it's okay. But yeah, it's tough because it's not something that. The church seems to confront much. And when you look at a lot of the writings of the early church fathers, there was a lot more talk about this kind of thing, about driving out demons and healing people and delivering people. 


[00:17:21] and trying to fight the good fight on the spiritual front. These days, it seems to be something that people are afraid of because the prominent view is materialism. And for the people who are talking about spirit, if they were actually confronted by a legitimate case of demonic oppression or possession, they would have no clue what to do. 


[00:17:40] Gina: They haven't. Historically, with my situation with my mom and seeking wise counsel, I have yet to find a pastor or somebody with experience in what they consider to be deliverance to actually have anything of value to say about the situation or even understand the situation. Literally. And I've talked to dozens of pastors and church leaders and professors trying to get information and none of them have been equipped. 


[00:18:08] Cody: No, and they'll usually in our instance tell you to pour back into that relationship and just dive deeper in she just needs a little bit more of your Jesus influence and I think that's terrible advice too Not that 


[00:18:21] Gina: when it's actually demonic when it's actually satanic You don't lean in 


[00:18:27] Cody: no, that's the 


[00:18:28] Gina: worst advice you can get 


[00:18:29] Cody: terrible even if she's not possessed or oppressed like They're dabbling in stuff. 


[00:18:34] They have no idea and you can't force people to change their minds 


[00:18:40] Gina: if you look at the bible and the stories of people who were demonically oppressed and influenced and possessed You, you don't have stories of their family, like chasing them down and being like, Hey, Jesus loves you and you're going to be fine. 


[00:18:57] No, actually like they're homeless and alone and raving mad and it takes them being outcast and hated. And Jesus comes in and rescues them through what ministry he does. Like it's not even biblical advice. There's no example of just loving someone through their demonic. stuff. If that was enough, then Jesus wouldn't have been necessary. 


[00:19:22] Cody: There's time to shake the dust off to your sandals and move on. 


[00:19:26] Ben: Now, as far as the path to deliverance goes in these situations where there is possession or oppression, we'll start with possession because that's the one I know the least about. It's the thing I have the least interaction with, but it's not something that is completely alien to me. 


[00:19:43] It's something that my father's talked about. So He was involved with the driving out of a demon at one point. And I think that my old church back in Wisconsin did handle that on more than one occasion. In instances where you have someone who is possessed, one, you actually need to know that they are. 


[00:20:00] But part of that is spiritual discernment. And there are people who have spiritual gift of discernment. That's something that Paul literally talks about. People who have the ability to discern between spirits. One, you need to have a group of people. This isn't something where you literally walk into a room, see a person who is convulsing and crawling around on the ceiling and you say, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ I rebuke you, get out of him. 


[00:20:21] This is something where you need to have a group of people who you know and you love and you trust. All of whom are anointed by the Spirit. All of whom are active in prayer and who pray with one another and meet regularly. You need to have a group of people. If you are going to confront this at all, you need to have a group of people who are your peers, who are warriors in Christ. 


[00:20:41] Men and women doesn't matter. And the Bible specifically says, Where two or three are gathered in my name, there I am. If God is there, he is the only one who will save. Therefore, don't do this alone. Do it with people who you know and trust and are with you in Christ. And that, honestly, is the solution for all of these problems. 


[00:21:01] Having people who you know, and you love, and you trust, and can meet together and pray in Christ is the solution to the majority of these issues in spiritual warfare. It may sound too simple. It may sound silly. There has to be more to it. This is the base. 


[00:21:15] Gina: When he gets you alone, he knows that he's got a real good shot. 


[00:21:20] And that's why I think people who are homeless and don't have a lot of human interaction, they lose their minds. Because the only voice they're hearing is the evil whisper in their ear. 


[00:21:30] Ben: And when you're facing these issues alone, it is very easy for the enemy to convince you that you're crazy. Or for other people to convince you that you're crazy and you're not seeing something. 


[00:21:39] When you're confronting something with a group, the people will always be able to have your back. If they're people that you know and you trust and you love, and who you know through long time experience, aren't crazy. If all three of us were to confront something together, I would trust what you guys had to say about it. 


[00:21:54] I'd especially trust Cody, since he's the type of guy who'd usually be very critical, and he's not gonna be easily swayed by something. So if Cody were to say, oh yeah, that dude's possessed, then yeah, we would know. 


[00:22:04] Gina: Yeah, because he's not, Cody is not one to like, go into the fantastical side of things. I 


[00:22:10] Cody: feel like on the podcast I come across way more fantastical than I actually am. 


[00:22:17] Ben: That's only because in these past few episodes we've been forced to talk about the fantastical. And the trouble when you're addressing things with the logic of God, when you're trying to ascertain the way things really work. But you have to follow the path, the information that we have has given us, and that's what you're doing. 


[00:22:36] And you've repeatedly emphasized that you don't know if it's 100 percent true, but that seems to be where the information is leading us. As far as your everyday life, that's not, that's the same way that you are. You follow what is the truth. 


[00:22:50] Gina: If it weren't for his direct encounters with my family, I don't think that he would necessarily believe some of the things that we've experienced, that they were even real. 


[00:23:01] Cody: I mean, I do, when we were, like, long distance, not knowing your mom at all, it was like, oh, there's two sides to every story. I really, it can't be that bad. What you're saying can't be that bad. I know it's bad, but Not trying to diminish her perception of it, but it's okay. What's the other side of the story? 


[00:23:22] Because that's who I am. I always want to know the other side. And it's okay. Yeah, this is bad. 


[00:23:29] Gina: Yeah, once you were in it, you were like, Did she really just say that? Did she really do that? 


[00:23:35] Ben: And tying this back to the idea of handling demonic possession or oppression, that is why going into it, you need people with you. 


[00:23:44] Gina: people who can identify it as not being normal, not being typical of like human behavior. And that's one of the reasons why I really like the way that Catholics handle it in terms of exorcism is because they pull in experts on psychology and humanity before they jump to the conclusion that it is absolutely demonic. 


[00:24:07] Ben: And they frequently have atheists do it because they, they want atheist psychologists to interview these people because if an atheist psychologist says that person's possessed, you can probably take that to the bank. Now, there is some question as to how many of these actual exorcisms that the Catholic Church do are real. 


[00:24:24] I don't think all of them are made up, but who knows how many of them are real versus fake and how many of the miracles that they've supposedly done or witnessed have been real versus fake. However, that's not the subject here. The idea is that for, uh, The average listener, the average Christian who somehow comes into contact with this. 


[00:24:42] What do you do? That's exactly what you do. The first thing that you start with is you ask yourself, Do I have a group of people who I know and meet with regularly and can pray with? If you have nobody, don't do anything. 


[00:24:54] Gina: Don't lean on your own understanding. 


[00:24:56] Ben: Don't lean on your own understanding, and more importantly, don't do anything yourself. 


[00:25:01] Get someone else involved who does, who either has some experience with this, or more importantly, who you know is blessed with the gifts of the spirit and has other people who this person knows, who also have gifts of the spirit and can meet together and pray and do something. 


[00:25:15] Gina: And if you don't have that, flee. 


[00:25:17] Ben: Correct. Distance is an important thing to maintain if you know nothing. Your ignorance in this particular situation will get you hurt. In some ways it protects you, but in this particular instance, you are choosing to act in ignorance. Choosing to act in ignorance is stupid in and of itself, by definition. 


[00:25:36] Gina: By operating on your own understanding, you're not operating within the armor of God. Correct. You are opening yourself up to things that will hurt you. 


[00:25:43] Ben: And I'm glad you brought up the armor of God here because that's actually another very critical point. You need to be fully equipped in the armor of God because you're in for the fight of your life. 


[00:25:53] It may not be something that is a literal fight. But it's spiritual warfare. 


[00:25:58] Gina: Satan and his minions do not want you to have success in Jesus name. So if you see something that you perceive to be demonic oppression or possession, and you are taking it upon yourself to handle it, and you're opening yourself up to be vulnerable without having the armor of God or the wise counsel, Spiritual warfare will come down on you and the person that you think you're trying to help. 


[00:26:24] It creates a domino effect of chaos and of devastation that you are not prepared for. It's not like playing with a Ouija board. 


[00:26:34] Ben: No, no, there are people who We'll frequently ask, okay, is there some kind of mystical chant? Do I need to use oil? What are, what are the, the processes for, for this? If, one, if you're asking those questions, you're asking the wrong questions. 


[00:26:47] Don't do it. Just don't. Flee. Yes, flee. As far as what you need to do, you aren't doing anything. It's not you. It was, it was never you. If you're asking about what's appropriate to do, if you have all of the prerequisites here, you have the people you know and love and who know and love the Lord, and this is on your doorstep and you need to handle it, is there something you have to do in order to convince God to cast the demon out? 


[00:27:12] No. You pray. 


[00:27:14] Gina: You don't have to talk him into it. 


[00:27:16] Ben: No. The idea is that you go in and you use the power of God. It's in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ I rebuke you. It's throughout the New Testament. People who weren't even Christians were using that. 


[00:27:29] Gina: Backfired. 


[00:27:30] Ben: Yes. In the instance of people who weren't Christians. 


[00:27:32] And that's one of the reasons why we say if you know nothing, if you're approaching this in the wrong spirit, if you're doing this in ignorance, flee. Don't bother. But if you're a grounded Christian and you, there are people who will just be afraid of this. Because there's reason to be nervous, but there are people who are experienced Christians who could very well do something who will stay out of it because they have no experience in it. 


[00:27:54] It's weird. It's creepy. It's spiritual, but they'll just not do anything. And it's not you. That's the whole point. It's not you. If God puts this on your doorstep, if you are an experienced Christian, you have people in your life who, you know, can help you and you can gather two or three. And in God's name, he will be there. 


[00:28:12] You can do something then. And the thing that you can do is let God in. 


[00:28:16] Gina: Just don't expect smoke to come out of people's ears and their eyes to roll back in their head and all kinds of movie theater style exorcism symptoms. What You would be doing would not necessarily look like anything you've ever seen before and I've never seen it But I'm saying that because we know people who are like I saw a demon Did you though? 


[00:28:39] Ben: No, no now as far as moving it out of possession because that's fairly rare 


[00:28:45] Mm hmm 


[00:28:45] Ben: and not something that most people would deal with as far as oppression. I'd say the same thing The exact same kind of thing. If you know nothing, if you're a fairly new Christian, if this is all new to you and you're approaching it in ignorance, don't. 


[00:28:57] Don't bother. Don't do anything. 


[00:28:58] Gina: Oppression is more common, and I think it makes it worse than possession, because we don't really see possession, especially in the church. Like, in the body of believers who are covered in the armor of God, possession doesn't happen. So if you're going to see it, it's going to be an outsider coming in. 


[00:29:16] But, if you are experiencing oppression, you can be in the body, in the armor of God and experience spiritual oppression. We've talked about that. 


[00:29:26] Ben: Yeah, it's when you were fighting. And there was a period where both of you guys were having, you know, really bad dreams. Yeah. Yeah. And I believe that was genuine demonic oppression on you guys. 


[00:29:38] And so 


[00:29:38] Gina: do we. 


[00:29:38] Ben: Yeah. And we prayed together. And so I, I don't know, I, from the few times I'd asked you guys after the fact, you weren't having dreams. And the only time that came back was like when the packages, and then you were getting the headaches and Cody started having the dreams again. And so, 


[00:29:52] Gina: And the day that the packages got taken, we got in a horrible car accident and then everything got better. 


[00:29:57] Ben: To me, it's the same kind of thing. We all got together when you guys told you guys basically told me that you knew it sounded crazy and I probably wouldn't believe you, but you were having dreams. No, obviously I believe you guys. And the reason I believe is because I've experienced similar things. I spent literally 30 years of my life dealing with this. 


[00:30:17] The thing 


[00:30:18] Gina: about the dreams is that Cody had never really believed in the demonic before that. And then he started having these dreams about demons, and he had sleep paralysis. And, like I shared earlier, like, when you're so scared that all you can do is say the name of Jesus because that's all you have in you, that's what happened to Cody. 


[00:30:37] I don't know if you want to share about that. 


[00:30:39] Cody: You pretty much summed it up there. I had sleep paralysis growing up, so I know what that is. But this was completely different. A dark shadow was hanging over me. I'm very confident in my sleep paralysis. cognitive position where I know if I'm dreaming or not dreaming, and I wasn't dreaming. 


[00:31:01] And it was, if you don't know what sleep paralysis is, you're basically awake, but your body still thinks you're sleeping and you can't move, but you're coherent and know what's going on in your surroundings. And that was happening to me, but there was this dark figure that carried on from my very vivid dream. 


[00:31:21] And again, grew up dreaming. Um, know the difference between a normal dream and something that's not normal. Again, very, 


[00:31:32] Gina: But you couldn't move. 


[00:31:33] Cody: I couldn't move. I couldn't speak. And it was a lot of effort to just mutter the name of Jesus and instantly could move again. Um, could 


[00:31:46] Gina: You didn't have to go back to sleep. 


[00:31:48] You were like, fine. 


[00:31:49] Cody: Yeah. I woke up, got some water, moved on and went back to bed. 


[00:31:54] Gina: Yeah. 


[00:31:55] Ben: But I think there's a really good lesson in there. And that for a long time, you guys were just struggling with that. And you thought I was going to think you were crazy. 


[00:32:03] Gina: You don't understand how many other people thought we were. 


[00:32:06] Cody: And that's, I didn't tell anybody else. I sound crazy when I speak about it. If I was myself, I wouldn't believe myself. So I will put that out there. If I was listening to myself as an objective third party, I wouldn't believe myself. But 


[00:32:21] Gina: we went to like seasoned Like, pastors and church leaders who had been in ministry for 60, 70 years, and we got told that it wasn't real, and that we were just dreaming it up, and that we shouldn't worry about it, and that we needed to lean in more and evangelize more to my family. 


[00:32:43] And we tried that, and everything kept getting worse. Like, the people that we went to couldn't help us. And that's why I say flee. We fled. We ran like hell to get away from that, because every time that it tries to reinsert itself in our lives, crazy stuff starts happening. And I don't know why she keeps trying to come back into my life because I've set very hard boundaries and there is no going back because of all the stuff that's happened. 


[00:33:15] But That, like, the demonic oppression that comes into our lives every time she tries to come back. I'm done. I'm running. Like, hell. 


[00:33:24] Ben: I think it's important to delineate. As we've just established here, it's very possible for believers to be demonically oppressed. And that's because that's the nature of fighting. 


[00:33:33] It's the nature of conflict. They are the enemy, and so they will attack you. And they will try to get any foothold that they possibly can. 


[00:33:39] Gina: And it's not that I'm saying my mom is a demon or my mom is possessed. My mom plays with fire and it rains on me too. 


[00:33:49] Ben: And that's why for oppression versus possession in a sense is much more simple, though it is dangerous. 


[00:33:58] The driving out of a demon that possesses somebody who let it in, like technically from what the Bible says, even non believers can do it, though it's very ill advised. It's very stupid. It's the power of Christ that drives them out, and ultimately, Christ is the one who has to save them after the fact. Or else, that house is empty, and can always be reoccupied. 


[00:34:18] As far as oppression, you have to figure out what's causing it. Because it doesn't come out of nowhere. And like you guys were saying, 


[00:34:25] Gina: It's influence. 


[00:34:26] Ben: It's influence. And it's not always obvious where that influence was. For myself, I struggled with it. for a very long time. And it was, it wasn't because of something that I did. 


[00:34:37] I was a little kid and I saw something and you can argue that I, I was just a little kid hallucinating something or whatever, but whatever it was that I saw, it followed me for my entire life. And it wasn't until a few years ago when I went through a period of fasting and prayer, I was finally free of it. 


[00:34:54] And I believe that the reason that the Lord let me go through that was to convince me of the fact that this isn't stupid. This isn't crazy. And to take it seriously when people come to me with this stuff. Or when I see people who are struggling with it. Because I think it is actually more common than we would like to believe. 


[00:35:11] Gina: We had our conversation, I think it was about a month ago, and we brought the guitar in here and prayed. And literally the very next day, we went to church and somebody came to me and asked for prayer because she was feeling like items in her home may have carried spiritual oppression to her because they were gifted to her from people that were spiritually oppressed. 


[00:35:34] And you had prayed for me to have confirmation from the Lord. That's what was going on. And the very next day I had somebody come to me saying, this is what's happening in my life and I don't know what to do, whether or not that was confirmation. I think it was, but I think it was confirmation that it's more about what's in my heart and how I'm protecting and defending my family and not feeling victimized by the person that is in influencing whatever spiritually over me, but I'm saved and I have the armor of God and I have the power of Christ living inside of me. 


[00:36:07] It's not my power, it's not my might, it's the Holy Spirit. And when we are, like, defending our families and protecting ourselves, we have to remember that. It's not our own understanding and it's not our own power. But thank you for praying because it has helped and your testimony has helped us and it's been very edifying to know that we can talk openly about these things together and not get treated like we're literally crazy. 


[00:36:34] Ben: When I know you guys well enough to know that you don't just say stuff because you feel like it or because your fevered imaginations have conjured something and you just want to talk about it. You're both actually fairly grounded people and you're grounded in very different ways. Cody, you tend to be much more practical and. 


[00:36:50] You like to walk through things in a logical process, and Gina, you're much more emotionally mature. You approach things from the emotional side, but it's through a seasoned, reasoned, emotional position. Where, yeah, through, through great, it's like the Bible says, through great effort and discernment, you've learned to separate right from wrong. 


[00:37:07] So when you both talk about stuff that's bothering you, that's spiritual in nature, but you can't talk to anyone about it, that's a great tragedy. And I see that as a pretty common thing in the church, where people can't talk to their pastors about this, because they know they'll just be told that they're crazy. 


[00:37:23] They feel like they're crazy. And that's one of the reasons why you know they're not. 


[00:37:28] Gina: That's a spiritual stronghold right there that the enemy keeps us boxed in thinking we're crazy, keeps us isolated, thinking that we can't reach out and get help. That's when fleeing is powerful. That's when using your voice with discernment is powerful and the enemy can whisper in your pastor's ear. 


[00:37:48] The enemy can influence people working in the church just as much as he can influence you and me. If we're getting whispers in our ear. Or we're doubting things spiritually. Why wouldn't our pastors also have those same things? We can't expect that church leaders are going to have all of the answers, but we can't lean on our own understanding. 


[00:38:12] Ben: Now, I do think that there is an important question that we need to address, and that's how do you know if you're dealing with demonic oppression versus just something like depression or some kind of mental health issue that's, you know, perfectly rational and explainable through physical means. 


[00:38:29] Gina: You have the scripture that says God gives us a spirit of sound mind. 


[00:38:33] God doesn't give us a spirit of fear other than the fear and trembling of our salvation. If you're feeling fearful, if you're feeling anxious, which we're warned not to focus on anxiety, if we're struggling with our sanity, those I think are obvious signs that are not from the Lord. And I would say at that point, you could evaluate it from an analytical It's not from God, so who's it from? 


[00:39:02] Cody: Definitely go into any situation with prayer, um, you know, asking where the feelings are coming from. Yeah. You know, if you're depressed, um, finding the root of that is very helpful, and if you're depressed for no reason, okay, you can rule out one aspect of therapy. 


[00:39:26] Gina: It's a process. I've been in therapy. You don't just get a therapist and instantly click. 


[00:39:31] You have to be so tenacious and, like, outspoken about your own well being, whether it's with a pastor or with a therapist. It's not just, oh, you're going to the doctor and they're going to prescribe you something and you're going to be all better. No. It's more nuanced than that. 


[00:39:46] Cody: Yeah. Prayer and seeking wise counsel in this situation, getting an outside opinion. 


[00:39:52] Gotta seek wise counsel. Prayer and seek wise counsel to diagnose. 


[00:39:58] Ben: Yeah, I watch a lot of Jordan Peterson videos, and he talks a lot about the different patients that he's had. And, you know, for a lot of these people, there will be an underlying issue. And it's very clear what the issue is. So there'll be a young man who'll come in and he has his life and it's completely fallen apart and he doesn't have a job and his room is a complete mess and then Jordan will ask him to just find one thing that he can do, just one thing to fix. 


[00:40:26] And start with the smallest possible step that he knows he will do. Sort a pair of socks. And it sounds silly, but if it's literally the only thing that the guy will do. He talked about one instance of, he asked the guy to vacuum his floor. And the guy literally put the vacuum In the threshold of his door, and then left it there, and was too lazy to either bring it all the way into his room, or put it away. 


[00:40:49] So he just kept stepping over it for the week between his visit to, to Dr. Peterson. And yeah, he felt ashamed, and he was like, yeah, I couldn't even bring myself to vacuum the floor. Can you at least put the vacuum back? And so yeah, you find the lowest thing that you could possibly do, and then slowly build your, your life up from there. 


[00:41:08] Slowly increasing the number of things that you can do until eventually all of the issues that you feel are insurmountable are fixed. That is where a lot of issues for people come from. It's you feel like you have so many issues in your life, and there's no way to address all of them, but through time and patience and effort, you'll get there. 


[00:41:25] And through what the Bible teaches you, you can address them. That in itself is, in a sense, spiritual warfare. But that's not demonic oppression. Where you find something like demonic oppression is a person who otherwise has their life completely together and then out of nowhere an issue arises. So one of the reasons I suspected that you guys had a legitimate case of demonic oppression was there's no reason for you guys to be struggling with what you were. 


[00:41:52] And the undertones behind the dreams that you guys were having were similar to things that I'd struggle with too. So part of it is wisdom. Part of it is personal experience and learning through the power of discernment, through the power of the spirit, to discern right from wrong or spirit from spirit. 


[00:42:09] And part of it is that you have to ask the question, where is this coming from? If it's coming from literally nowhere, it doesn't automatically mean that it's demonic oppression or it's spirit or whatever. Sometimes there are instances issues that come out of left field. But a good indication really is, where is this coming from? 


[00:42:28] If you can't figure out where on earth any of this is coming from, it's possible that it is spiritual warfare. And at the same time, if you can pinpoint where it's coming from, then the question is, okay, what is this source? And Gina, you've talked a lot about how your mom was involved in the occult. Once you start bringing the occult and things that are clearly spiritually evil into the equation? 


[00:42:49] Then you do have to suspect it. There are a lot of people who will immediately hear that. Oh, you talk about witches. You're burning Yeah, it's throwing them into the lakes and if they sink they're a witch and if they flow if they're 


[00:43:00] Gina: left handed. 


[00:43:01] Ben: Yeah We get it. There's superstition. Absolutely. 


[00:43:05] Gina: No, but what I was connected with wasn't superstitious It was evil and it was chaotic like I think it's funny because a lot of people that I've talked to about my experience, they think that the word occult signifies some sort of organized crime almost. 


[00:43:23] And it's not like that. It's so chaotic and just craziness. And that's another good indicator of what it is. If it's super chaotic, and it comes out of left field, it could be mental health, but if it's like an established, stable person, like you said, and this chaos just appears, I would evaluate carefully. 


[00:43:45] One thing that I wanted to mention too, along the lines of psychology is if you have like past trauma because that's something Cody and I have had a lot of education on through foster care training and then also through ministry training, there's like a quiz you can take just in the privacy of your own home to evaluate your personal past trauma. 


[00:44:06] It's called the ACEs test or quiz. And it will help you evaluate your markers for childhood trauma based on your responses to questions for things you might think are normal that aren't necessarily normal. And that can help you identify if you have an unmet psychological need as opposed to spiritual warfare that is demonic. 


[00:44:29] Because, Cody, I don't know if you want to share, but 


[00:44:33] Cody: No, definitely. I'll share on this one, and like, where there's a difference, and why seeking wise counsel, or knowing the root of what the cause is very important. Because we were going through the foster care training, and I was abused by my father growing up, and like, I had come to terms with that, and thought I was good. 


[00:44:53] But then we go into this foster care training, where you're, Role playing certain situations and they're depicting what these kids go through to get into foster care and that hit me like a ton of bricks coming to the realization that my childhood was a lot worse than I was giving it credit for. And I am not an emotional person at all. 


[00:45:18] Gina jokes all the time that I only have one emotion, but I was just brought to tears and that's not like me at all. And obviously. Pretty easy to connect the dots there of where that trauma and, um, issue was laying, but that's why I think it's important to know the root. Stuff comes up. Yeah. 


[00:45:40] Gina: Stuff comes up from the past and I have to remember, this is trauma, not demonic. 


[00:45:47] Cody: And I was, like, depressed after that for quite some time, just dealing with it. And it wasn't, like, spiritual oppression, it was just trauma from my past that 


[00:45:58] Gina: Processed. 


[00:45:59] Cody: Processed, came back up. So, okay, gotta deal with this now, finally, and 


[00:46:04] Gina: Like you mentioned, we bury stuff, and then it comes back. We pay for it. 


[00:46:10] Ben: And oddly enough, even with that, having a group of people in your life who you love and who you respect to be able to talk with about this stuff is incredibly important. It's incredibly powerful. If I could just say one thing and someone take that to the bank. It's to grow with a group of people who you love and respect, to find a group of people, to find a Bible study, to find a handful of people who are at your level or maybe a bit higher to try to shoot for someone who is further along in their journey to try to shepherd you and help you. 


[00:46:42] Gina: We have episodes that will teach you how to do those things if you're interested. So look back at our older episodes because we give you advice. 


[00:46:49] Cody: Absolutely. And don't hide behind being an introvert. I've caught myself as, Oh, I'm an introvert. That's why I don't talk to people. Or that's why I don't go do this. 


[00:47:01] I'm just inner introverted. That's who I am. And 


[00:47:04] Gina: there's that song that we like, it's called show me what it means by land of color. And he says, I spoke in tongues. but did I love and I love that because you and I pursue a lot of Bible spiritual things, but then we're like, but I'm an introvert, so I'm going to stay home and we haven't shared that love with other people and we have to, we need to, we must, because we've grown the most, we've been encouraged the most, we've been edified the most, we've helped the most, we've been helped the most by being in community. 


[00:47:41] Cody: To all the super analytical introverts out there, amassing knowledge for yourself and doing nothing with it is Gnosticism at its core. If you're doing nothing with what you're learning and you're just trying to get to higher knowledge, then you're not doing anything good. 


[00:48:00] Ben: And a certain level of discomfort is actually necessary for all of us. 


[00:48:04] If you feel absolutely no discomfort in anything that you're doing, And clearly, you're not a threat to the enemy. Clearly you're not doing anything worth doing. 


[00:48:14] Gina: And if you're getting attacked, don't you dare turn around. 


[00:48:18] Cody: That's so good. That's such a good point. Cause, and I probably sound like an old man, but like in basketball, they always said, if you're not pushing yourself to failure or lifting weights, if you're not pushing yourself to failure, then you're not growing. 


[00:48:34] If you're comfortable, you're not growing, you're not getting better. It's the same in our spiritual journey. Absolutely. 


[00:48:43] Gina: If you give up, he's won. That's what he wants. 


[00:48:48] Ben: And remember, the victory isn't yours. It's the Lord's just because you're weak doesn't mean that you're going to fail. And it's like you mentioned before Cody, when there was that instance where you felt paralyzed and you were lying in bed and all you could do was speak the name of Jesus, there was nothing you could do. 


[00:49:05] Cody: Oh, and it was a struggle to get that out, like I couldn't even, I was just like barely uttered the word Jesus and there is power in his name. I will say that. But you're 


[00:49:16] Gina: not leaning on that as your magical, 


[00:49:19] Ben: I don't 


[00:49:20] Gina: know, abracadabra. 


[00:49:21] Ben: It's not a magic word. It's not bibbidi bobbidi boo. It's not, it isn't magic. 


[00:49:27] However, there are times where literally all you can do, you're driven into a corner, you have no power, no ace up your sleeve, nothing left to give, and all you can do is cry out to Jesus. Clamavi de profundus, from the depths I cry out. There are times where we are so badly beaten down and oppressed and there's nothing we can do but cry out. 


[00:49:47] And in those instances, God let you get to that point so that you would cry out to him. And in those instances, you will find he answers. 


[00:49:56] Gina: Our dependence is essential to our relationship with God. If we ever put ourselves at his level or higher, we've totally failed. And I think that's the key to not just spiritual warfare and the demonic, but also just the relationship. 


[00:50:14] We have to keep ourselves in perspective because we are not the point. Thank you so much for taking the time to listen to our podcast today. If you liked what you heard, please feel free to subscribe and share and leave a positive review. And if you would like to connect with us on social media, you can do so on Instagram and Facebook at the logic of God. 


[00:50:35] You can also send us an email at main dot the logic of God at gmail. com. Thanks again for listening. We hope you have a great day.

Who or What is the Devil? Part 2

[00:00:00] Cody: Hi, thank you for tuning in to the Logic of God podcast. I'm Cody. 


[00:00:14] Gina: I'm Gina. 


[00:00:14] Cody: And I'm Ben. If you're returning, thank you for coming back and if you are a new guest, welcome. 


[00:00:33] Ben: Can the devil make you do anything? 


[00:00:35] Gina: No, we have free will. If God doesn't make us do anything specifically, doesn't force his will on us, then why would someone less powerful and less potent be able to? 


[00:00:48] Ben: So there was a point in scripture that we talked about earlier where It's the Last Supper, and Judas dips the bread in the dish with Jesus, and then Jesus says, what you're about to do, go do it. 


[00:01:02] And it says, at that moment, Satan entered into him. Was Satan controlling Judas from that point on? 


[00:01:09] Gina: There are a lot of different beliefs about what can happen with Satan. bodily possession and some people believe that bodily possession means that the person like you've seen movies where it's like Oh, I can't I go into a trance and I can't control myself and they do whatever and I wake up suddenly And I don't remember anything like Again, knowing my upbringing, I don't know really what I think about that. 


[00:01:37] There has to be an element of, like, acquiescence, like you agree to it. In order for it to happen, it just doesn't happen to you. What do you think? 


[00:01:47] Cody: I don't know, honestly. Because I've never witnessed possession, I've never experienced it myself. So to me, everything thereafter is hearsay. And I don't know. 


[00:02:01] Gina: What do you think about like those horror movies where it's like demon kids living in the walls and they can contort their bodies into crazy shapes? And do you think that's rooted in any kind of truth, the media portrayal of possession and that kind of stuff? 


[00:02:18] Ben: First, going back to Judas, you're right in that when you said that it seems to be something you have to welcome in. 


[00:02:27] It's not as if Judas. Up to that point had been a saint and was a really nice guy. And he was 


[00:02:33] Gina: skimming for however long. 


[00:02:35] Ben: Yeah. He was literally betraying Christ that entire time. He was helping himself to the purse. And at that point he had already agreed for, for a literal bag of silver. He was going to take. 


[00:02:48] A group of people to Jesus. He'd already made that agreement with the Pharisees. Essentially, my understanding is that this was Jesus basically last, odd enough, turn to Jesus moment. It was basically him giving Judas one last chance to not do this. And that was why, at that point, the devil entered him. 


[00:03:08] Because at that point, that was the point of no return. 


[00:03:11] Cody: You had already been, Jesus 


[00:03:13] Ben: literally confronted him is, I know what you're going to do. I know what you're going to do. Go do it. And he could have said, you know what? I'm sorry. This, this whole thing is too much. This is a terrible idea. I'm sorry. I repent. 


[00:03:25] He could have done that. Instead, he literally did just go and do it. Now, there is some discussion as to whether or not he could have made any, like, do you think 


[00:03:34] Gina: he set up a Ouija board and like painted goat blood on the wall? And then that was how he got involved with Satan? 


[00:03:43] Ben: No. So we talked about this before in the demon episode, When people talk about rituals and all that jazz, I don't believe that it's literally the rituals or the blood or anything that has any mystical properties that somehow creates a channel and makes demons able to do things. 


[00:03:59] In this particular instance, literally all it was Judas making that final decision he was going to betray Jesus, that he was going to go through with it. He was going to leave that room from the presence of the Almighty and go and grab some soldiers and betray his Lord. And just that decision. That open rejection of Christ was enough for the devil to enter him. 


[00:04:21] And I believe it's the same concept with anything else. It's that when you're making these crazy, gaudy, over the top rituals, it's not that the rituals have any power whatsoever. And when you go to a Ouija board, it's not that a little flat piece of wood with a bunch of letters put on it has any power in it whatsoever. 


[00:04:39] However, there is the general idea about what it is that you're doing. You think you're playing around with something that has power and a devil sees that and then says, Oh, so you think this is funny. You're going to play around with this. You're going to be cavalier. You're going to open yourself up to this. 


[00:04:57] Okay, then I'm going to take you for a ride. You're welcoming them in and granted there are a lot of people who act out of ignorance But I don't think ignorance protects you 100 percent just like if you were to commit a crime in ignorance There's still damage from that crime. 


[00:05:14] Gina: One of the things I've seen Popularized lately it used to just be and maybe I'm ignorant because I'm a newer Christian and that I've been a Christian less than a decade, but soul ties used to be talked about commonly in church as Sexual, like relationships that you had in the past that damaged your purity and created what was considered a soul tie. 


[00:05:39] I've heard it spoken a lot more lately that there are spiritual soul ties because of like satanic or demonic interactions that you've invited onto yourself. Do you believe that there is such a thing as like a demonic or satanic soul tie? 


[00:05:56] Ben: I guess it depends what you mean. I think there's just like 


[00:06:00] Gina: a curse on you or something that you carry with you as like a mark against you. 


[00:06:06] Ben: So I think. Taking the supernatural out of it for a second and talking about something else like alcoholism. If a person struggles with alcoholism, is that something that they carry with them for the rest of their life? 


[00:06:18] Gina: Yeah. 


[00:06:19] Ben: I think that it's true with literally anything that is deep and is an issue and is scarring. 


[00:06:25] And there are a few issues that are deeper than that. And more scarring than spiritual ones. And so it's not that I think that there's a soul tie, or demons that will follow you around literally for your entire life. I think that once you've struggled with something as deep and as horrifying as that, the horror and the struggle will follow you for the rest of your life. 


[00:06:46] And there is always the possibility that pain and that struggle opens you up to something bad. 


[00:06:53] Gina: I think what I don't like about the term soul tie Especially in terms of demonic things is that it still gives the implication that you can somehow sell yourself soul. 


[00:07:04] Ben: Yeah That's why I wouldn't call it a soul tie I think it's a different way of addressing something and it's addressing it in a way that it doesn't need to be addressed 


[00:07:14] Gina: I think repentance is sufficient 


[00:07:16] Ben: agreed. 


[00:07:17] I think that if there is any soul tie quote unquote It's because the person is unwilling to let go 


[00:07:25] Cody: I think it's because they can't forget. Like, even with alcoholism, if that person never tasted alcohol or experienced that, they would have no connection to that later on in their life. If you've not had connection in a deep way with a demonic being, you're not going to have connection with it later on in life. 


[00:07:44] Gina: Unless you choose to open yourself up to it. Yes, 


[00:07:46] Cody: and once you choose that and it happens, you can't forget, we can't forget things easily, especially if it's, I can't remember the scientific term, but there's certain memories, especially if they're traumatic, that will stick with you no matter what. 


[00:08:02] Sometimes we bury them and we disassociate, but those disassociated memories usually present themselves 


[00:08:14] Gina: When you don't want them to. 


[00:08:15] Cody: In a different way too, not necessarily as a bad memory or a trigger in certain instances, but you'll have a tick or Tourette's or something like that. And there, there is something to like. 


[00:08:28] We're not 


[00:08:28] Gina: saying Tourette's is demonic. 


[00:08:30] Cody: Not by any means, but there is something to, you can't unlearn things most of the time. You can't forget it. 


[00:08:38] Gina: Yeah, 


[00:08:39] Ben: I agree with that. It's like what the Apostle Paul said, once he understood what sin was, he was tempted to repent. To a greater degree to do sin and the sin that he committed was worse as a result because he understood what he was doing So yeah, I agree 100 percent and I think there's also a very good reason why we have such harsh punishments For specific crimes that involve the destruction of innocence Once you rob someone, and that really is it, robbing someone of their innocence, they have no choice in that, and yet it is something that they do frequently carry with them for the rest of their lives. 


[00:09:13] By the grace of God, you can regain your innocence. I think, Gina, you've talked about that, where you've approached certain things with a degree of innocence that you almost wish you didn't have. But it's a beautiful thing in that God can restore your innocence and your purity. 


[00:09:28] Gina: Definitely. And I don't want it to sound hopeless for people who have experienced trauma, whether it's spiritual or sexual or anything. 


[00:09:36] Because God truly can restore that and can take away the burden, but you have to fully surrender it. So if you are dabbling in this supernatural stuff that you really don't understand, cause none of us understand it, no matter how wise and elevated you think you are truly like the only path to that purity and to that protection is repentance. 


[00:10:01] Ben: So what exactly can the devil do? Like, you can't sell your soul to him, and he can't, like, mark your soul forever, and he can't soul tie you. So what exactly can he do? 


[00:10:15] Gina: Trick you. Deceive you. Accuse you. 


[00:10:18] Ben: Is it mostly just whispering in your ear, that, that type of thing? Can he do supernatural things around you? 


[00:10:26] To try to rope you in 


[00:10:28] Gina: I have a very unique personal walk that not everybody has and my perspective First of all when I've shared my experience people have questioned my mental health and that's discouraging It makes it hard for me to share some of the things that I've seen and experienced. He's tricky And I loved what you said about Jesus, trying to trick Jesus into doubting himself, because if we really believe that Jesus was fully man. 


[00:11:01] He would have had to have had some self doubt if we if he ran the gambit of human emotion and experience and He was tempted in all ways It makes sense that self doubt and kind of comparison and different things that we struggle with today Would be things that Jesus at least blinked through that doubt right there's is enough to get us to do a lot of stupid stuff It's hard because I know that demon possession exists, and I know that it's not Satan himself can possess because of what happened to Judas, but I don't know, like, I feel pretty secure in knowing that I'm safe from that. 


[00:11:40] I just, I hate to even think what happens to people when they get involved in that. He can. I don't think he often does. I think we do a lot ourselves. 


[00:11:51] Ben: Yeah, I think that's actually where the majority of our focus should be. You're absolutely right. There are things he can. Hypothetically do and you Cody mentioned before that. 


[00:12:02] Yeah, there's plenty of stories of people who are Satanists who claim that they communed with the devil and gained a measure of clairvoyance. They could see events that were going on around them and weird and spooky and creepy and terrifying things would happen around them. It seems clear that the devil can do supernatural things, though. 


[00:12:21] It seems that there's a pretty tight leash on him as far as what he can do. Right. 


[00:12:24] Gina: There's a whole realm of supernatural spiritualism that we don't know. Scripture tells us that, and we serve a logical, ordered God. So we know that these things exist. The fact that they exist, and the fact that Satan exists in that realm, more than he exists in our realm, I believe means that our lack of understanding There's like a wall. 


[00:12:49] We can only go so far, and he can only go so far. Either way, we're tethered because of our humanity, and he's tethered because he's already been defeated. Really, the problems that we're seeing with satanic stuff, demonic stuff, a lot of it has to do with our own human nature and fighting with our flesh and getting tricked into believing things that just aren't true. 


[00:13:11] And it's really, that's as far as his influence has gone. And like you said, in our last episode, there's like a level of impotence for the demonic, like since Jesus's resurrection, it's become very emasculated in a way. Like it's just. It's not as strong as what we think. 


[00:13:30] Ben: The other was once a time where there were staves turning into snakes and water turning into blood and now the most he can hope for is to get a bunch of really crazed weirdos to try to commune with him and then he can tell them something that he sees. 


[00:13:46] Gina: Or talk them into committing horrible things. 


[00:13:49] Ben: To, yeah, to not leave them alone and give them visions. And ultimately the biggest focus that we should have is not on what the devil can hypothetically do, on what his powers, whatever they might be, are. Because in the end, as long as you turn to Christ, As long as, you know, you're living for him, you're safe, you're fine. 


[00:14:09] The question is, what can he do to ruin your life? What is it that he, he most commonly does? 


[00:14:17] Cody: He lies. This one's tough for me though, because if we take Job's account as Satan, then he does have control of environmental aspects, like the, the wind that blew the house down or the controlling of the raiders. 


[00:14:34] So he still has environmental access to control things in our world and do 


[00:14:43] Ben: that, but I don't know. Even then, we've all gone through periods in our lives where it felt things were really bad. And yet through all of that, if there are any decent spiritual people in your life, they say, God is still God. He has a plan. 


[00:14:56] It's not that God is literally forcing all the horrible things in your life to happen necessarily. Sometimes it's due to other people's choices. Sometimes it's due to things completely beyond your control. Sometimes it's due to things that you do, and it's all your fault. But in the case of Job, while the devil, assuming that is who it is, Was doing all those horrible things in the end. 


[00:15:17] God was still in control The devil couldn't do anything that god didn't let him do 


[00:15:23] Gina: you know what bugs me though. He didn't resurrect his original family like Which also lends credibility to Cody's thought of maybe God knew what was gonna happen in the next step Which was that something else bad was gonna happen and they should have been wiped out But we don't know we're not God, but that always drove me crazy. 


[00:15:41] He really loved his wife and children Why didn't he get them 


[00:15:44] Ben: back? His wife didn't die. But yeah his children. 


[00:15:46] Gina: Yeah 


[00:15:47] Ben: Yeah, and in, in that case, the question is what happened to his children in heaven. Eventually, we are all going to die. And whether God takes you now or he takes you in 800 years, eventually you die. 


[00:15:58] None of them would be alive today. And no matter what, death itself is an evil. And because we introduce death into the world, we are all taken from this world by evil. So whether or not you are taken, your life is taken by bandits, or it's taken by natural causes, that is natural evil. No matter what, you would be taken by evil. 


[00:16:18] Gina: But because we have eternal souls. It's not really death. 


[00:16:21] Ben: Correct. And that's the biggest thing in all of these discussions where people bring up What about all these people who died or what about all the children who would have died here? What about all this suffering in the end in the grand scope of eternity? 


[00:16:33] It's nothing we all live forever And if god is truly good and truly just then justice is done and goodness will be given to you in heaven a thousand times More than what you left behind 


[00:16:43] Cody: if you want to feel insignificant In this life, go read Ecclesiastes. 


[00:16:48] Gina: I read it every day. 


[00:16:50] Cody: We are but vapor. Here today, gone tomorrow. 


[00:16:53] Ben: A wave tossed in the ocean. 


[00:16:55] Cody: No, I like that a lot because there's, this is, if you're a Christian and believe what the Bible tells you, then this is just a small fraction of what's in store for us. And what we have to look forward to is so much greater than we can ever imagine here. 


[00:17:16] Gina: But back on the topic of Satan and being a Christian, what is our assurance that he can't hurt us? 


[00:17:25] What does scripture say for us? Because I don't know how it is for men, and I'd love for you guys to share on it, but there's this very strong, I don't know if it's a trend, but it's just something about some Christian women. They're like, Ooh, that's satanic. That's demonic. I rebuke that. Is that something that is true? 


[00:17:50] And should we be rebuking things and like getting goosebumps and saying that's demonic? And is that founded in reality or is that human emotion? What do you think? I 


[00:18:05] Cody: think that's a bunch of Karens, but I don't know. I don't know the specific instance. It sounds like some church Karens there. It sounds like the people who are gonna 


[00:18:17] Gina: You Airbnb and you're like, Nope, I feel a demonic presence. 


[00:18:21] Cody: All the Jezebel spirits all up in here. 


[00:18:25] Gina: No, I'm serious though. This happens and I want to talk about it. 


[00:18:29] Ben: So I think we can go in two different directions with this. You You can either say, actually three different directions with this. You can say, literally everything is spiritual warfare. The devil's just always up in your business. 


[00:18:44] And every bad thought you ever have is actually the devil's fault. And nothing that you ever think is wrong, but it's just this darn devil's always messing with you, man. And then there's the other side, which is the devil does nothing. And he has no control over me or anyone else, and I'm not actively seeking out anything evil, therefore why would I ever have anything from him? 


[00:19:04] Therefore I don't need to worry about spiritual warfare. And then there's the middle position, which is sometimes one, sometimes the other, and you need wisdom to know the difference. I think the third option is the truth. The trouble is that it's altogether too enticing to take literally every single bad thing that ever happens, or more importantly, every, every single thing you think is bad that happens and slap the devil on it because it implies that God has given you authority to label what things the devil has done. 


[00:19:34] And there are a lot of moral busybodies in the church that, you know, that take that position. I've been, I used to attend a Pentecostal church where there was, you know, some of that going on. So, I do think that there is great danger in both extremes there. Because if you label everything as spirit, like there was one instance a pastor talked about where there was a man and a woman, you know, who were not getting along in their marriage and both of them were very Christian and they were, every time they had an argument, they were rebuking one another in the name of Jesus because both of them were, they were just being assaulted by the devil, no matter what, both of them were doing and saying horrible things and not being obedient to one another and thus they were just rebuking each other in the name of Jesus and nothing was going anywhere. 


[00:20:17] That's the wrong way to look at it. Obviously, those problems were there. But at the same time, there have been points where, just talking on a personal level as a man, there have been times where I've just been sitting, just alone, by myself, and then just suddenly this random thought will jump into my head. 


[00:20:34] And it's not a good one. It's not a pure one. It's not one that the Lord would approve of. I didn't go seeking that. I didn't try to welcome that into my life, but it just jumps in. And at that moment, you have the choice to either focus on it, embrace it, and then make it yours, or you can rebuke it in the name of Jesus and move on with your life. 


[00:20:54] That, I would say, is more frequently what we talk about when the devil whispering something. It's just that you're going about your daily business, not doing anything wrong, and then suddenly it feels like there's just this thought that comes in, this frequently cynical or frequently aggressive, frequently dour, just wrong thoughts. 


[00:21:14] Something you automatically in your soul know is wrong. And then you focus on it and make it yours. That I think is what we should be focused on as Christians. Learning the discernment, both of God's voice, that still small voice that we know isn't ours and the devil's voice, that very loud, angry voice that we want to make ours. 


[00:21:38] Gina: Do you think that Satan pursues people as ardently as? Do you think that Satan wants everybody to bow to him the way that God wants everybody to love him and obey him? 


[00:21:52] Ben: I think the devil doesn't care who you bow to as long as it's someone other than God. I think he just hates God so much and is in so much rebellion that he is looking for anything and everything to hurt God with. 


[00:22:05] Cody: At this point, yeah. This is where the pseudepigrapha I'm reading right now is interesting because I'm going through the, I can't remember what it's called, it's in Latin. Basically, it's like the Testament of Adam or something like that, and there's this, Again, don't agree with anything in it. Don't think it's inspired. 


[00:22:26] Don't even really think this is edifying for the most part. But this one conversation, Adam basically asks Satan, like, what did, what did I do to you that you're pursuing me this way? Like, why, how did I offend you? What, how did I wrong you that you're trying to actively get me out of God's presence? And Satan basically goes into when God created Adam, Michael said that these are in God's image, we need to take care of them and worship them. 


[00:22:57] Adam's in God's image, bow to him, you're going to serve him and Satan's, but I'm higher in the pecking order. I was created first and he hated that and that's technically where the fall came in for Satan in this story, but it's interesting that he wanted Adam to bow to him and not You, you see that, yeah, when you were talking about, he was telling Jesus about him. 


[00:23:23] I saw that play in there, but. 


[00:23:25] Gina: So does that mean we have authority then? That we're not aware of or not acknowledging over darkness? Or good? 


[00:23:32] Cody: I think through Christ, like, we have authority through Christ over the darkness. And, uh, Um, I was going to cover this in the like deliverance portion, but even in like researching the like exorcisms for ancient Judaism and for even some Greek literature, like they had like in their incantations, some form of rebuking the spirit in the gosh, what is the name of the Tetra Tetragrammaton? 


[00:24:03] Yes, the Tetragrammaton. Rebuking it, and this is Greek pagan crap, but they use the Greek version of the Tetragrammaton to cast out this evil spirit. 


[00:24:12] Ben: For those of us who don't speak Christianese, what's the Tetragrammaton? 


[00:24:16] Cody: Basically the connection to when God tells Moses what his name is, Yahweh. 


[00:24:23] Ben: Yeah, I thought it was like the 72 letter version of his name or something like that. 


[00:24:29] I can't remember exactly what it is. 


[00:24:30] Gina: I feel like I'm in geometry class. 


[00:24:32] Ben: It feels 


[00:24:33] Cody: like that. It is. Basically, they're still casting it out in God's name, and I thought that was interesting. 


[00:24:40] Gina: I have a Bible story about something like that, but it's later. 


[00:24:45] Ben: We can read it now, since when do we ever go in order? 


[00:24:49] Gina: I know. 


[00:24:50] Ben: We're bad about sticking to the outline. 


[00:24:53] Gina: So the seven sons of Sceva, Sceva, Sceva, in Acts 19 11, it was like the seven evil sons of the high priest that were calling on the name of Jesus, even though they were not believers and casting out demons. And then it ended up backfiring on them and they got stripped and beaten and then basically humiliated. 


[00:25:16] Yeah. 


[00:25:16] Ben: As it pertains to whether or not we have authority over the devil or demons. Yeah, we definitely don't. You can't just walk up to a person who's possessed or being demonically oppressed and just say, you know what, get out of there. 


[00:25:32] Gina: You just scram. 


[00:25:33] Ben: You skeedaddle. 


[00:25:36] Gina: Is Satan more powerful than we are? 


[00:25:39] Ben: I suppose that depends on what you mean by power. 


[00:25:41] So, seemingly, he's not constrained by the laws of motion that we are. He can be basically anywhere that he wants to be at any given time. It seems also not 


[00:25:52] Gina: to be confused with omnipresence. No, 


[00:25:54] Ben: it's not that he's omnipresent. I think this is probably something we should have specified earlier God is omniscient. 


[00:26:00] He's all knowing. He's omnipresent. He's Omnipotent. He's all powerful in all places at all times and The devil is not He is not all powerful, he is in one place, but he can be in a lot of places very quickly. He can move very quickly. And he exists in the same time that we do, moving through time in the way that we do. 


[00:26:22] There's also some debate as to whether or not he can read your mind. It's generally said that he can't. 


[00:26:27] Gina: If you're a believer, it's pretty much guaranteed that he can't because of the different scriptures that exist, but that's 


[00:26:36] Ben: Yes, going back to the whole parable that Jesus said of if the demon is driven out of a person and then eventually comes back and find it clean and in order and Open and also the idea of if the home is guarded by the strong man, you first have to tie up the strong man. 


[00:26:53] The idea is that if Christ is in your life, the devil is very limited in what he can do. He can basically whisper in your ear. Just any of us can talk to each other. What? I'm just talking. I'm not doing anything. And if you do anything, that's your bad. Basically, if you choose to accept what he says, then that's on you and it is on you. 


[00:27:12] But that's basically all he can do to a believer, unless God specifically allows him to do something more. And in that case, who cares? Because it's God letting, God is directly allowing something to happen, meaning God has a plan for it. And so, I'm not so concerned about instances like that, where maybe the devil has the ability to cause a car accident or something like that. 


[00:27:34] But, In such instances, that's only because God allows it. For every time else, it seems the only thing the devil can do is whisper in your ear. He can't read your mind, but he can observe. And it's been posited that while he can't read the minds of the believers, he's very good at figuring this out. 


[00:27:50] Gina: He's good at psychological warfare. 


[00:27:52] If you look at the patterns of abuse and, like, different types of abusive relationships, where there's, like, physical abuse and then emotional and psychological abuse, he's very good at emotional and psychological manipulation. 


[00:28:04] Ben: And it's very effective. 


[00:28:06] Gina: Yeah, literally can drive people insane. 


[00:28:09] Ben: Now, is this the point where we want to move on to deliverance? 


[00:28:11] Or is there some more we want to cover on the devil? Because this actually might be a good point to move on to deliverance. 


[00:28:16] Cody: Last point on the devil, I'd like to make in just his omnipresence and just the demons. And I heard somebody say once, be careful what you say out loud because it can be used against you. 


[00:28:29] And that's not to promote keeping things in, where two or more gather, the Lord's there, so if you welcome the Holy Spirit into that time, I don't think sharing and seeking wise counsel on something that could be used against you is a bad thing. But, Just the gossip and other stuff that happens that we know is a sin and speaking that out is Welcoming its use against you or somebody else. 


[00:29:00] Agreed. 


[00:29:01] Gina: He's a freak on a leash 


[00:29:03] Ben: That's an interesting way of putting it. 


[00:29:05] Gina: He is. He's a really sad dude. Like I almost want to feel bad for him because He's so, he's so far gone. 


[00:29:13] Cody: There was something I wanted to ask. I commonly have heard people saying that the devil can't do anything to you unless he asks permission from God. 


[00:29:25] Gina: That's not in the Bible. And 


[00:29:26] Cody: they cite the Job instance where he had to go to God to basically torment Job beforehand. 


[00:29:33] Ben: I would say that he can only have influence over the physical world at this point. If he goes to God first, and that would be especially, maybe there's ways he could do that outside of the instance in Job, but as far as Job is concerned, he could not literally mess with the physical world as it pertains to a righteous person unless he got the okay from God to do it. 


[00:29:58] Like we talked about before, there is maybe some question as to whether or not demons and the devil could do things in the natural world elsewhere, you know, influencing animals and things like that. 


[00:30:08] Cody: Global warming. 


[00:30:10] Ben: Oh, it's always been an issue. He is hell. But God always protects those who are his. He set aside Israel for himself. 


[00:30:18] And every time Israel strayed from him was when The enemies would come in or death or famine or destruction would happen for the people that God loves. He protects. And so, in the case of Job, I would say it's a very good example of this concept of Christians being protected. Job was a righteous man who loved God, and as a result, God protected him. 


[00:30:41] And so the only reason that the devil would be able to do something as far as the physical world is concerned is if God let him. Now, I do believe that. The devil was working through his wife and just tormenting him mentally. 


[00:30:56] Cody: And I want to make this clear because bad things happen to good people. 


[00:31:01] Absolutely. You're talking about specifically satanic influence or demonic influence, not natural evil. 


[00:31:09] Ben: Correct. There is the normal natural course of events at this point in world history where bad things just happen. As a matter of cause and effect, if I were to take a marble and chuck it on a street, eventually someone might slip on that marble. 


[00:31:23] That doesn't mean that the devil moved the marble there. However, in terms of the devil doing things directly to try to hurt you, Or drive you away from God and influencing the physical world. He can't do it to you unless God lets him do it. However, that doesn't mean that he has to get permission for literally everything, 


[00:31:43] Gina: and it doesn't mean that God was like, yeah, that's fine. 


[00:31:46] Ben: God didn't specifically tell him to do all of the bad things that he did. He just gave him permission to do it on the condition that he didn't kill. Job as it pertains to Christians, it seems to me, and again this is extrapolation, it's not explicitly said, but. Using the Bible and what it says as a foundation and assuming that was Lucifer, that was the devil in Job. 


[00:32:09] The devil can't just cause your whole house to explode because he hates you, because he wants to do that to all of us. If he had the ability to do it, he'd be doing it non stop all the time. The whole earth would be burning. 


[00:32:20] Gina: Imagine how mad that makes him that you just said that. 


[00:32:22] Ben: Oh, I know. 


[00:32:23] Gina: Go home and pray, Ben. 


[00:32:26] Ben: Oh, I'm sure he, I'm sure he's looking for an occasion against all of us at this point. But, he doesn't have the power to just make bad things happen as often as he wants. However, there's nothing that says he can't just come up beside you and whisper. Try to ruin your marriage. Try to ruin your relationships. 


[00:32:42] Every time you do something wrong, he'll be there to whisper in your ear, You just screwed up too bad this time. He'll whisper little white lies and half truths, getting as close to the truth as possible to make a lie sound appealing, and then drive you away from God. He can absolutely do that, but the reason he can is because he's not actually doing anything. 


[00:33:03] He's just saying something. You have the power to say no. You don't have to listen once on 


[00:33:08] Gina: a leash, but he's not muzzled. 


[00:33:11] Ben: That's actually perfect. I wish I had a thought of that. 


[00:33:13] Cody: Dang it, Gina. 


[00:33:14] Gina: Put that on a T shirt. 


[00:33:16] Cody: That's why being above reproach in those instances is so powerful because in Job's instance, You have the ultimate humiliation for Satan in that story, where he's only good because you only bless him. 


[00:33:31] And then at the end, Job is still worshipping. How humiliating is that for Satan, who's not all knowing, who doesn't know what Job's gonna do. He probably fully thought that Job was gonna turn and curse God because of what was happening to him, but Job stayed faithful and praised God in the end. And how humiliating. 


[00:33:53] Ben: Absolutely. I think that because the devil understands humanity very well, it's all the more frustrating when he fails. Because it doesn't make sense to him. I think God's grace is confounding to him infinitely more than it is to us. 


[00:34:08] Cody: Oh, and if pride is one of his main weaknesses, then humiliation is a great weakness. 


[00:34:14] Combat strategy. 


[00:34:16] Gina: I don't know. I think humiliation would be motivating to Satan 


[00:34:19] Ben: Motivating for vengeance, but the thing is like god didn't give him authority to do stuff to job for his entire life Once that chapter of job's life was closed god blessed him immeasurably more than that time before And I see that exact same kind of pattern in my own life, if I'm honest, where there are periods where it feels like I'm distant from God and where you hear that little voice whispering in your head, trying all the harder to get you to do something stupid. 


[00:34:46] But then you move on from that, and then it's like you go on to a golden age where it's like you're basking in the glory of the Lord, and you have some of the best years of your life. 


[00:34:55] Gina: It's the hills and valleys of just being alive. So are the valleys like spiritual warfare, though? Is it a battle, or is it just a valley? 


[00:35:06] Ben: I'd say that, yeah, it's generally spiritual warfare. And spiritual warfare doesn't always involve the devil. Sometimes it is just you. 


[00:35:16] Gina: It's spirit against flesh, and flesh against flesh. 


[00:35:20] Ben: Did we 


[00:35:21] Cody: talk about sun nature enough? 


[00:35:22] Ben: No, I don't think we did. So why don't you 


[00:35:25] Cody: So, we, we touched on, there's a lot of cultures out there, a lot of people in society who go in and, the devil made me do it. 


[00:35:35] If I sin, the devil made me do it. Or I do something wrong, the devil made me do it. And this is where I wish that they would look at total depravity. I don't agree with it, but we're pretty awful. Like us as human beings is pretty awful. And especially in America, I think the principalities that are not good, that are at play have a really easy job in America with how terrible we are. 


[00:36:08] Gina: There's a lot of influence in Western culture that allows us to believe that we are better than we are and more deserving and empowered than I think we probably are. 


[00:36:18] Cody: Trying to remember the quote. I had a great 


[00:36:21] Gina: You didn't put it in the outline? 


[00:36:23] Cody: No. 


[00:36:23] Gina: What is with you tonight? Both of you, not putting your quotes in the outline. 


[00:36:28] Ben: It was C. S. Lewis, I assumed everyone already knew it. Uh huh. That says 


[00:36:33] Cody: Tozer, so it's right there, 


[00:36:36] Ben: but I can't remember. What exactly would you think is the balance here between what the devil does and what our own human nature drives us to do? 


[00:36:46] Gina: There's a buffer. It's the armor of God. I almost said the logic of 


[00:36:52] Cody: God. 


[00:36:53] Ben: Six of one, half a dozen of the 


[00:36:54] Cody: other. I don't think there's a problem treating them the same. If you attack the flesh with scripture, that's not a bad strategy. If you attack spiritual warfare with scripture, that's not a bad strategy. 


[00:37:07] Gina: Is it true that if you just declare the name of Jesus that it all flees? 


[00:37:13] Ben: It has to be done with the right heart posture. It has to be done with the right attitude. 


[00:37:18] Gina: So you can't just say the name of Jesus and then suddenly everything's fine. You have to have meaning behind it. There is understanding. 


[00:37:24] Ben: There is power in his name. Absolutely, but it's not as if just saying his name by itself is the answer to everything that will ever happen to you. 


[00:37:36] Otherwise, you would never have any problems. Anytime you felt temptation, like, as men, we feel temptation all the time. And if every time we had some kind of random thought in our head, we would just said, Jesus. And that's it. Now, there's a reason why the Bible has lessons in it. It teaches us. It teaches us wisdom. 


[00:37:55] It teaches us things that we rely on, that we fall back on when our reason abandons us. And Jesus teaches through parables, not just to say his name and then that will solve everything. He teaches you wisdom. Now, when it comes to the fiery darts of the enemy, this is like you mentioned before, Gina, the, the armor of God. 


[00:38:15] It's not simply God's name. It's his armor. And so it's the fruits of the spirit. It's also learning the word. It's the shield of faith, the helmet of salvation, the sword of the spirit belt of truth. Like 


[00:38:28] Gina: shoes, don't forget 


[00:38:29] Ben: the shoes of the gospel of peace. Yeah. They got these little wings on them too. 


[00:38:33] They're beautiful. But the point is that it's not just one magic bullet that can be used to kill the enemy. It's that you have to assemble the full armor. And each individual piece of armor provides a different service. The sword of the spirit is the method through which you attack the enemy. And so when you say, through the power of the spirit, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, I rebuke you, that is an attack on the enemy. 


[00:38:57] And that generally is what we talk about when we say rebuking the devil in Jesus name. You are through the power of the spirit rebuking him. Now, at the same time, there is the shield of faith to prevent any of the texts from even reaching you in the first place. When you are living a life that is faithful to God, when you truly trust in God, it's not simply having faith, but living a life that is faithful, then the devil doesn't really have many opportunities to attack you. 


[00:39:23] And the helmet of salvation is the thing that protects your head, and going back, Gina, to what you said before, he can't read your thoughts. Salvation is the thing that protects your mind, it protects your head. He can say whatever he wants, it'll get through, it'll get through, but he can't do anything to you. 


[00:39:38] Gina: That was one thing growing up in the household that I did. One thing that was constantly under attack, and it triggers me now very badly, is my sanity. My mom would make me question my sanity because she would gaslight me. into thinking that what was going on was normal and that what I was experiencing wasn't really what I was experiencing. 


[00:39:58] And then going into churches and saying, Hey, I need help. Help me. And they would think we're not really equipped in actual spiritual warfare. So let me tell you about the deliverance ministry in terms of like mental health and spirits and like moods more than experiences and things that actually happened. 


[00:40:20] And that really triggered me. But knowing that I have salvation and knowing that I have the armor of God, I feel very secure in my sanity. And that's always been something that really bothered me, because I really thought for a really long time that I was crazy. That what was going on in our house was driving me crazy. 


[00:40:40] And meeting Cody and having been introduced to Christ in scripture and churches, and having him see some of it for himself and being like, This isn't normal. Let's talk about this has helped me to feel very secure, but mental health and insanity, I think, goes hand in hand with spiritual warfare and the demonic and satanic things. 


[00:41:03] And we overemphasize on that. The evil spiritual stuff. And we under emphasize the mental health side of things. And I think that the helmet can be a very helpful tool in combating that because we get so caught up in what sounds, you know, miraculous or, you know, outside of the laws of physics and logic, but really we need to focus on what's in here, our head. 


[00:41:29] I'm pointing to my head. 


[00:41:31] Ben: Thank you for specifying to our 


[00:41:33] Gina: listeners. 


[00:41:34] Cody: It's hard because in a culture today, we have these catchy songs where it, you know, we have, there, there's power in the name of Jesus. There's no greater name than the name of Jesus. And your name 


[00:41:46] Gina: is a light that the 


[00:41:47] Cody: shadows can't deny. 


[00:41:48] Gina: Thank you. 


[00:41:49] Cody: And. I'm not saying any of that is not true, but I think we get this misconception that if we just put on loudspeaker Jesus over and over again throughout our house that we'll be safe and everything will be perfect. And that's not what It's 


[00:42:05] Gina: part of it. But it's not the end. 


[00:42:07] Cody: Yes, and just like saying Jesus without context, I don't think does anything. 


[00:42:13] I think in certain instances it can, and it has for me in certain instances. This idea that just saying Jesus is gonna be good enough So I don't need to study my Bible if I get spiritually attacked I'll just say Jesus and I don't need to put on the armor of God every single day because Jesus and Jesus and it's He's great. 


[00:42:37] There is power in his name. There is Instances where we read about they hear his name and shudder like it There is power to it, but it's not the cure all and the fix all and the reason to not study your Bible. Not equip yourself with all of the armor that Ben just went through. 


[00:43:00] Ben: Yet, to know God is to pursue truth, to pursue Him. 


[00:43:05] Part of knowing God is knowing His name. That is absolutely true. And for a great many people, like I've heard so many stories about people who just learn His name. And it changes their lives. Just saying his name out loud for the first time was enough to drive certain people to tears. The thing is, if you just stop at that, let's say that's where the story ends. 


[00:43:24] I learned the name of Jesus and I said it out loud and it changed my life. The end. You're not growing any closer to God. Imagine if after Cody, I met you at a church service and imagine if you came over to me at that service and you were like, Hey, so do you want to join a Bible study? Oh, sure. But then I never go. 


[00:43:47] I said yes to a Bible study and it changed my life. I learned Cody's net. If we never progressed any further than that, what would be the point? Yeah, it was a diverging point for my life, but only because we continued to do things. 


[00:44:00] Gina: Sometimes in your life, there will be moments where all you can do is say Jesus's name. 


[00:44:05] You'll be frozen in terror. The only thing that you can come up with to say is Jesus. It's Jesus, and it's help me, but it's not, you're not always that helpless. And by growing and maturing in your faith, you won't be that helpless. I 


[00:44:25] Cody: know that God knows every hair on our head, but what are we doing so that God knows our name? 


[00:44:33] This whole good and faithful servant concept. What are you doing that God is going to call out, Cody, you've done well, my good and faithful servant. I know my actions through you and I'm calling you home. Like, where does God know your name? Is it just because he knows everybody's name? He's all knowing he knows your name 


[00:44:55] Gina: That's something i've been praying about lately like not my name, but There have been things like my word for the year's voice. 


[00:45:02] And so i've been learning how to talk again because I had a very quiet season and one of the things that I felt very convicted about was Some of the stories that i'm getting ready to share i've never talked to god about he knows everything but I haven't taking the time to talk to Him about it. So what good does it do me to talk to people about it when I haven't even gone to God? 


[00:45:30] He should be our first choice, not our second or last choice. And He won't say our name if His name isn't first on our lips. 


[00:45:42] Cody: No, depart from me, I never knew you. How is God going to know your name? 


[00:45:48] Gina: Not that salvation is works based, but you have to put in work. It's not good enough to just say, I got dipped in water and I repeat it after my pastor and I am saved. 


[00:45:59] That may be true, but are you really secure? 


[00:46:04] Ben: The whole point of the analogy of the armor of God is that armor is meant to be worn in a battle. You aren't sitting at home. In a suit of armor, with a shield and a sword, just chilling. 


[00:46:17] Gina: You sure? 


[00:46:18] Ben: God intends for you to be a warrior, to fight the good fight, to finish the race, to keep the faith. 


[00:46:24] Those are all actions. God calls you to action, and so you have to answer the call. And in the end, that's the only true way you can find peace. There is great peace in that initial call, but eventually you have to answer. 


[00:46:40] Gina: Thank you so much for taking the time to listen to our podcast today. If you liked what you heard, please feel free to subscribe and share and leave a positive review. 


[00:46:49] And if you would like to connect with us on social media, you can do so on Instagram and Facebook at the Logic of God. You can also send us an email at Maine dot the Logic of god@gmail.com. Thanks again for listening. We hope you have a great day.

Who or What is the Devil? Part 1

[00:00:00] Cody: Hi, thank you for tuning in to the Logic of God podcast. I'm Cody. 


[00:00:15] Gina: I'm Gina. 


[00:00:16] Cody: And I'm Ben. If you're returning, thank you for coming back. And if you are a new guest, welcome. 


[00:00:35] Ben: At this point, we have addressed angels and we have addressed demons. It seems there is one more figure in here that we should probably address, and that would be the devil himself. Jesus. 


[00:00:47] Gina: Sorry. 


[00:00:47] Ben: No, we talk about Jesus all the time. We talked a lot about Jesus, and God willing, we're going to talk a lot more about Jesus. 


[00:00:53] But after talking about demons or devils, there is the devil or Satan. 


[00:01:01] Gina: He's got many names. I made a list. 


[00:01:04] Ben: Oh, please go through the list. 


[00:01:06] Gina: Now? 


[00:01:07] Ben: Why not? 


[00:01:08] Gina: It's later. 


[00:01:09] Ben: Okay. So, there's a lot of different theories and a lot of different approaches to talking about the devil. Some people say that he is one, that's just one figure. 


[00:01:20] Satan, the devil, Lucifer, all of those are one person. There are other people who make arguments that there are different entities that split up to make what is the modern interpretation of the devil and they should be treated as separate. And I've heard that from a few different individuals. So, Let's try to address this as best as we can, from a biblical perspective, who is Satan? 


[00:01:40] Gina: Cody made the first point, is he one entity or many? 


[00:01:44] Cody: Did I make the first point? 


[00:01:45] Gina: Get out. Get 


[00:01:47] Cody: out. You're banished. So, is he one entity or many? It's along the lines of, you have the depiction of, what is it, the prince of Persia, or It seems like they're talking about Satan, but they're also talking about Prince Tire. 


[00:02:04] Oh, you mean the, the prince of tire? Yeah. Tire, yeah. And then you have the job account and, and Job one six where he's the, the Hebrew there is the Satan. Which can be a position or title, not necessarily a proper noun, and that is a potential. And then you have just many names for him, where he's connected to different deities from different religions, like where the name Lucifer comes from, I think is Hillel Ben Shahir, which is actually a Canaan Mesopotamia. 


[00:02:40] God that Isaiah is connecting to. 


[00:02:43] Gina: I've also heard Beelzebub Referred to as the devil. 


[00:02:49] Ben: It's a bit difficult to tell just automatically if this is referring to one person or multiple people Generally the explanation that I've been given is just that it is many names just like there are many names for God There are many names for the devil and all of them essentially describing different things that he does So the first point you actually have here Cody is from Job chapter 1 verse 6. 


[00:03:15] Cody: Yeah, Job 1. 6, Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them. So in the text there, you have sons of God. So we've talked about that in the previous episodes, that's going to be connecting to the angels. Satan is also presented in this text and most English translations have capital S, Satan in there, but the original Hebrew is Hasatan, which can also just be a title. 


[00:03:47] And throughout the Hebrew Bible, the Old Testament, Satan is actually used in different positions, not referring to Satan himself, not connected to that serpent in Genesis there. So there's two different interpretations of Job there that are popular. 


[00:04:06] Ben: So what are those interpretations? 


[00:04:07] Cody: So the traditional interpretation is that that is speaking of Satan proper noun, the devil, the serpent in the garden is connecting there. 


[00:04:18] And then there's the Hasatan, which actually would be a title. So somebody who is the accuser, but on God's payroll. 


[00:04:27] Ben: So, basically, a good angel, but his job is basically just to try to poke holes in God's logic? 


[00:04:33] Cody: To test people, to find people who need tested or, in Job's instance there, and there's some connections to in the sacrifice of Isaac, that story of the same kind of play here in Job, where you have this, if they, If they truly loved you, they would do this. 


[00:04:52] And in this Job story, it's, he's had a great life thus far, of course he's gonna worship you. But if you did, let me do these things, then I'm sure he would turn from you. 


[00:05:02] Gina: Do you think the ambiguity of not knowing really when Job was written or what era he lived in creates some confusion about who this Satan character could be? 


[00:05:13] Cody: Definitely not having a date for the text is problematic for certain 


[00:05:18] Ben: interpretations. No matter what, it's not as if Job takes place before the fall. And it's, I believe it's generally asserted that it takes place after the time of Noah. And one of the reasons given is because Job lives into, I think his 400s. 


[00:05:35] And when you follow the lineage that's presented through the genealogies in Genesis, there's a point where there's a precipitous drop off in the number of years that people live. Prior to the flood, it lists people as living close to a thousand years. And then after Noah's flood, there's a period where there's fairly high lifespans, but they start to drop very quickly, where it's like still in the upper 800s, lower 900s, then it's 800s, then it's 600s, then it's 500s, 400s, and then by the time of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, like, you're basically consigned to living less than 200 years, and then by the time of Moses, 120, and I think It's posited that there's actually a very good reason why it's 120 because in Genesis, God says, I will number their years 120 and that seems to be an effect that starts to apply after the flood where our years are slowly reduced until Moses and his introduction of the law where Moses obeying God's law lives only to the year 120 and it's made abundantly clear in scripture that he could have lived longer That, you know, his strength had not left him, that he was still in good health. 


[00:06:45] He just died. And it implies that the reason is because that is the point at which God's law, what he's ruled, is implemented. He only lives 120 years because that's what God said. All that is to say, there's a reason that people typically date Job to after the flood and pretty recently after the flood, but most likely after the flood. 


[00:07:06] Now, all that being said, as far as that pertains to the devil. And whether or not this is Satan, the common interpretation, the devil, where he's this evil singular entity or he's just a good angel who, it's his job, it's just what he has to do. The tough thing for me about taking the interpretation where this is just an angel and this is his job. 


[00:07:29] Is there a human on earth who knows the Lord and loves him and chooses to make someone's life hell? There are people God uses, but usually there are people who are evil. And God chooses to use them, because if He doesn't, then it's just evil for the sake of evil. There is no greater purpose behind it. I think there are people who have issues with God using evil. 


[00:07:50] If He doesn't, you're presented with two different issues here. Either one, He uses evil and ultimately uses it for good. All things work together for good for those who love God. Therefore, evil has to work for good. Or, God has nothing to do with evil, in which case He has no control over it, and all the consequences of evil are beyond Him. 


[00:08:08] He has to be in control of evil in some way, and we're presented with that issue here. Either this is an angel, and God is literally commanding this angel to cause natural and human evil on Job and his family, or this is the devil, and the devil really wants to do horrible, evil, disgusting things. And the reason I take that interpretation more favorably, and this is the biggest thing for me, is that the argument that, God and the devil or Satan here have is in regards to the nature of why God would allow evil to happen to someone who is good in the first place. 


[00:08:46] The devil essentially makes the argument, if you only allow good things to happen to good people, then it's possible that people who are evil will only do good things, just so that good things happen to them. But if a truly good person has horrible things happen to them, and they still hold fast to their righteousness, that is a truly good person. 


[00:09:05] And God agrees with that argument, and I think that it's actually a pretty firm argument. That is why God allows bad things to happen to good people. But I could be off base here, I don't know, what do you guys think? 


[00:09:17] Gina: I think you should share, just I don't have a I don't have as much of a well rounded exposure or understanding of Satan as far as the types of study that I've seen Cody do. 


[00:09:30] Honestly, up until about two years ago, I was like afraid of even talking about Satan. So I've had a hard time putting a lot of work into understanding if he's one single entity or many. And I'm not sure that fundamentally to me it matters. I think for Cody it matters because he wants order and logic. 


[00:09:52] But this is one of those things where I just have faith. So I don't have a real strong opinion. I think it's really interesting, but it's not something that I would climb up on the hill and die for. 


[00:10:04] Cody: Yeah. And that's where I'm at too. I can take either way, but this is another one of those divine counsel settings because you have the angels. 


[00:10:13] coming before God, the sons of God coming before God as well as Satan. And you have this council that we've seen with the lying spirit and the prophets of Ahab. And then again, and I'll bring it up later on the podcast, the evil spirit that torments Saul, and you have that. And so you can see where God uses. 


[00:10:35] Angels or entities to not always do what we could, would consider loving. And, you know, we're constantly told throughout scripture that God's going to test us. And that with, um, Job here, but also specifically with Abraham's story and Isaac, a, a just completely ridiculous test in that as well. So that's the defense that they use for this interpretation. 


[00:11:00] Again, I'm not married to either. Or, but I can see how it can go both ways and not clash with my specific theology. 


[00:11:11] Ben: Yeah, I guess for me, it's just, it's tough to reconcile the concept of God creating an angel to do bad things to good people. And that's his sole purpose. It is much easier for me to understand allowing bad things to happen to someone and using that for good. 


[00:11:28] Cody: But if God's going to test you, is he just using bad things? For good in that instance, or is he actually putting a challenge in front of you that will test your faith? 


[00:11:39] Ben: The question is what exactly do we mean when we say evil and in order to address that we need to look at how things Were at the very beginning. 


[00:11:47] There was no death. There was no disease There was no suffering all of those things were considered by God to be bad Thus and God saw that it was good and God saw that it was good and there was evening and there was morning the first Day second day third day there was no suffering or evil You At the very beginning, so at this point, the reason that God would use suffering and pain and death and evil is because suffering, pain, death and evil are already in the world and in order for us to confront it and to even more importantly to confront the evil that exists within us. 


[00:12:22] God uses evil and puts it in front of us in a way that we can't possibly ignore. And when we confront evil, we have to lean more and more on the good. We have to lean more on Him. That's why it's important for us to face evil. Because the more evil we see, the more we have to rely on good. The more darkness we're surrounded with, the more we need the light. 


[00:12:42] So, that is the justification for why God uses it. But to create an angel from the very beginning to do evil, and that is evil. Because if it wasn't there at the beginning, then it wasn't good. Then, God literally created something to be evil. And there's people who make the argument that God made the devil, thus he made evil. 


[00:13:01] No. All angels from the beginning were good. But they had free will just like we do. So yeah, it's tough for me to, again, it's, I'm with you guys more or less. And that could be the truth. And maybe there's something about this that I'm not seeing. It's just tough for me to reconcile that position. 


[00:13:19] Cody: Yeah, it is. 


[00:13:20] And my question I would ask you as well is with angels having free will, how much leniency and forgiveness did they have when they screwed up? I would imagine they don't have very much. Okay, but there is a margin there where they have it. Is there? I would think so. If they have free will, are they perfect? 


[00:13:42] Is Michael perfect in everything that he does? 


[00:13:44] Ben: The trouble with addressing this is that, again, this is conjecture. However, we're told in the Bible that The more responsibility you have, the more God expects of you, the more, like when Paul talks about how when he knew the law, he suddenly was capable of sinning in much greater respects. 


[00:14:03] And the more understanding you have, the worse even the most nominal of sin is. There's a reason that we don't treat the sins of children the same as the sins of adults. Once you know better, even the most basic of sin, like running around and shouting as an adult, It's not something that you would ever expect someone to do when you think very poorly of an adult. 


[00:14:23] A child is different. In the case of angels, they are literally face to face with God. And I think they can make mistakes, but I don't believe that they can intentionally say no to God and then have that be okay. We can because we have a degree of ambiguity. We don't know for certain if God is really there. 


[00:14:42] We assume that he is, and we see evidence of that. And God proves himself to us time and time again, but we have very short memories and we often can oversimplify or overcomplicate or justify things to ourselves. We see a miracle and we think, I could have just pictured that in my head. I could have imagined it. 


[00:15:00] It could have not happened at all. So as long as we're in the flesh, we have a degree of deniability. And I think that we've talked about that before, this divine hiddenness of God that serves a purpose. Angels don't have that. So I would say even the most basic thing, God saying, bring me a cup of water. 


[00:15:15] If an angel said no, they are willingly and fully denying God. So I don't think they do have wiggle room in that respect. 


[00:15:23] Cody: But so if God tells you that. You can test somebody, but leaves it ambiguous, and you take it too far. Are you rejecting God's will? 


[00:15:35] Ben: In this instance, the angel was literally doing evil. 


[00:15:38] He was causing raiders to murder someone's family. That's not a good thing. No. Murder is inherently evil. 


[00:15:44] Gina: But if God can harden Pharaoh's heart in the story of the Exodus, Like, having a hard heart against God would be considered evil, and yet God caused that to happen. 


[00:15:53] Ben: There are two separate questions there. 


[00:15:55] One, was Pharaoh a good guy to begin with? 


[00:15:58] Gina: He was created by God. 


[00:16:00] Ben: At some point when he was a baby, he was good. The question is, did God, was he a righteous person like the level of Abraham? And then suddenly God forced his heart to be hardened, and then he was a terrible person. 


[00:16:09] Gina: What about Judas? 


[00:16:11] Ben: Let's address one thing at a time here. 


[00:16:13] So first, addressing Pharaoh. In Jewish tradition, and I happen to agree with this tradition, the idea is that when the Bible says that God hardened Pharaoh's heart, what it's saying is that his heart was hardened to the supernatural. Normally, if you were to see incredible supernatural things happening all around you, you'd be terrified. 


[00:16:31] What God did was he hardened Pharaoh's heart and just let him act the way he normally would have if he was presented with just normal facts and evidence. And so, he acted with the evil that was in his heart. So, it wasn't that God forced him to do anything. If anything, he was enabling him to act in the way that he truly would think. 


[00:16:50] Now, as far as Judas is concerned, Again, we talked about this before. There is the question of whether or not God specifically forced Judas to do anything. I don't believe that he did. I believe that there was any number of ways that all could have played out. It's just the reason that the result that happened was prophesied to happen was because it happened. 


[00:17:11] I don't believe that God forced it to happen because it was prophesied. I believe it was prophesied because it happened. Which is a weird way of talking like that goes into God's perception of time and the nature of prophecy and everything We I think that's a bit too intellectual here The point is that there's no place in the New Testament where it specifically says that God forces Judas to betray Jesus 


[00:17:34] Gina: But Judas walked with Jesus. 


[00:17:36] Ben: Mm hmm 


[00:17:36] Gina: like he was in his presence often and still betrayed him and still loved money and His purpose was what it was. So I don't know the Bible also have diverging 


[00:17:50] Ben: the trouble with that is that the Bible also says very clearly that it would have been better for him to have never been born or For him to have yet been had a millstone tied around his neck and be thrown into the sea than have ever been born Like it makes it very clear that his existence was not good It was very bad what he did and that Satan literally entered into him To say that God forced that to happen means that God literally forces people to commit evil. 


[00:18:16] Can God force people to commit evil? 


[00:18:19] Gina: No, he's perfect. 


[00:18:20] Ben: So then we're at an impasse here. Either this happened because God allows it and God just knew that Judas was going to do that because he exists in all time and all places and just incorporated it into his plan, which is what I believe. Or God literally forced him to do it, which I think is in part the Calvinist position. 


[00:18:39] Gina: If you look at the stories, like in, especially the Old Testament, there's a lot of meaning for us, for future people. And a lot of times you'll see there's one person who sacrifices for the good of all and whether they're committing good or evil, the message comes across to us as a lesson of how to respond when horrible things happen to us or how to respond to other things. 


[00:19:07] And So I, I do see that there could be a divine purpose in putting these examples in scripture of questioning if God could or would create evil or force evil, but I don't know. 


[00:19:24] Ben: There's a point where Paul is talking and he brings up a hypothetical conversation where people are saying, let's do bad so that good would result. 


[00:19:32] Gina: Yeah, no. 


[00:19:33] Ben: And their condemnation would be justified. If it's wrong for us to do it, why would it be right for God? And that's not an argument that I think holds weight in every situation. There are plenty of things that God allows or God does that he's justified in doing because he sees the full picture. 


[00:19:49] But if, by nature, it's wrong to specifically do bad, so that good would result. God does not lie. God does not tempt. God does not do evil. But if he would specifically create things and force them to do evil, I don't see a difference. 


[00:20:04] Gina: But he doesn't There's no iron clad promise in a gold box when you get baptized. 


[00:20:10] That's nothing bad is ever going to happen to you. And while we do pray, God, please release me from this or save me or whatever. Sometimes I would say even a lot of times God doesn't. Move in the way that we want or expect because life isn't perfect and this ain't heaven I don't think that god is causing it I think it's just he's developing us and we have all kinds of scripture about trials and you know it's just it's hard for me to Put this whole idea into a box and close it and say it's not possible because we do get tested and we do get built and Having these bad things that happen like joe Like, developed Job and proved his faith and faithfulness, which is an example to me, so. 


[00:20:52] Cody: It's a difficult question with, and this is where the common free will side of the spectrum falls short for me, and I lean more towards the Calvinist side, is with God's sovereignty. In Job's instance, he could have used this. What we're calling evil right now, knowing that his family would have been tormented by something later on down the road, is a quick death better for them in this instance, and evil is still being used for good. 


[00:21:26] That's something we don't know, and that's where God leaves Job at the end of that book is, where were you when I was laying the foundations of the world? Do you feed the donkeys or whatever? I can't remember the exact verbiage, but ultimately, and Paul makes reference to it as well, is we don't get the big picture like God does. 


[00:21:47] Ben: Sure. I think this actually lends well into a separate question that also partly involves the discussion of angels and demons and their purpose. When you look at, not just taking Job into account, but looking at nature generally, there are a lot of plants and animals. that exists that seem absolutely cruel. 


[00:22:05] There's a specific type of wasp that will lay eggs in a worm while it's still alive. And like the larvae inside will devour the thing while it's still alive and it's in horrendous pain. And we 


[00:22:16] Gina: literally just had this happen in our garden to a monarch butterfly. 


[00:22:20] Ben: It's not a worm, a caterpillar. But yeah. 


[00:22:23] Can you picture God specifically creating something that works that way? 


[00:22:29] Gina: We talk about this a lot. I'll be like, I wonder if it was like this in Eden. 


[00:22:33] Ben: So yeah, there's, the reason I bring it up is because there was a recent video I saw from Dr. Gavin Ortland where he talked about how similar to the idea behind the divine counsel, there was also the thought that. 


[00:22:46] After the fall of man, there was also angels doing evil. And there's the general thought that I was taught, that once humanity did evil, that the world was cursed. But then there's an additional thought, and this is something that was actually taught by a lot of people. C. S. Lewis took this position, Tolkien took this position, where angelic evil actually corrupted creation significantly. 


[00:23:07] That they had a specific hand in the corruption Of animals and plants to the point where when we see a lot of the horrendous examples that just seem to come out of nowhere in nature that don't seem to serve any purpose, that's actually essentially a spitting in the eye of God, so to speak, 


[00:23:24] Gina: like a parasite 


[00:23:25] Ben: and would also explain why it is that the flood was necessary because it wasn't just humans being mean to one another. 


[00:23:31] And so God punishes everybody. It's that it's humans being horrible to one another and angels. Essentially becoming corrupt and running amok over the surface of the earth and corrupting his creations to the point where he needs to save only a handful of it, that is the least amount of corrupt, and then destroy everything and start anew. 


[00:23:51] That makes a lot of sense to me. But, if that is the case, Then when we're looking at God using evil, like you, you can allow evil for the sake of a greater good, which is things choosing to love you and choosing to obey you, but then God specifically creating things to be evil. And then that evil running amok on his planet because he forced it to be evil, and then he destroys the things that he forced to be evil, and then forces things to continue to be evil after he wiped the slate clean. 


[00:24:20] It doesn't gel for me very well. 


[00:24:23] Gina: Definitely. 


[00:24:24] Cody: It's interesting, and I would love to know the sources for Lewis and Tolkien on that, because that's basically what the Book of Enoch is about. They probably did. 


[00:24:35] Ben: I used the book of Enoch. I actually have a couple of quotes from them here, if you want. No, you 


[00:24:39] Gina: didn't put them on the outline. 


[00:24:40] How dare you? So this 


[00:24:41] Ben: is, yeah, this is from C. S. Lewis's Miracles. Nature's positive depravity calls for a very different explanation. According to the Christians, this is all due to sin. And send both of men and of powerful non human beings, supernatural but created. The unpopularity of this doctrine arises from the widespread naturalism of our age, and will disappear as this error is corrected. 


[00:25:07] Beings in a different nature and higher nature, which is partially interlocked with ours, have, like men, fallen and have tampered with things inside our frontier. 


[00:25:18] Gina: It's interesting because in the story of Noah, God makes a covenant with the animals as well as the people. 


[00:25:26] Ben: And God frequently uses animals as part of human covenant as well. 


[00:25:30] Gina: We're off topic a little bit. A little bit, but 


[00:25:32] Ben: this ties into the nature of who the devil is and what his purpose is. And sorry, go ahead. 


[00:25:37] Cody: No, this will lend well to the, I want to cover human nature in a little bit and I'll But it's also interesting that they bring that up because a lot of the, Divine council worldview and then the, like, the book of Enoch goes into the sin of the watchers, watchers being the fallen angels or angels, then they're fallen and there's that, there's that. 


[00:26:01] But the sin and depravity that the world got to pre flood was just so messed up because of the angels, fallen angels influence on the world. It just kept on growing and growing. We would have never gotten to that level of depravity anywhere we may have later on down the road, but as fast as we did without the influence of the fallen angels. 


[00:26:30] Ben: Now, I think it is once again important to emphasize this is not explicitly outlined in scripture. You can at best say that it's hinted at and Cody, you've actually read the Book of Enoch. I haven't. This is more just stuff that I've. I've heard from other people like Lewis and Tolkien and also Dr. Ortlin, Dr. 


[00:26:49] Ortlin's video, which I would highly recommend everybody look at. But, in the end, it's not something that we could say with any level of certainty. It's just something that makes sense and that is a part of Jewish tradition that goes back for thousands of years. But still is tradition and might be wrong. 


[00:27:07] Gina: And we don't all have the same agreement on all of it, which I like, because perspective is everything. If I was set in my way or you were set in your way and we weren't willing to discuss, we would be extremely unlovable. 


[00:27:21] Ben: And while I, you know, while earlier Gina and I were disagreeing a bit, the truth is that you could entirely be right on this. 


[00:27:28] And it's not even that we're that far apart on anything. They're just individual things I think both of us look at and have questions on and it's tough to reconcile a lot of these harder Deeper spiritual issues. 


[00:27:39] Gina: Yeah, I think I don't know. I have a very Special relationship with god and I don't say that because i'm conceited and it's not that i'm god's favorite or anything It's just i've done really dumb stuff And I've been assured by God that even in my evil behaviors, sinful behaviors, like, I'm still loved by Him, and my nature is so known by Him that even when I mess up, He still sees me as His precious daughter, and I don't have to have it right. 


[00:28:10] The pressure's off. Because, I'm learning, and I'm growing, and I'm not stopping, and I'm still hungry to know more about him. I'm still going to screw up. I'm still going to get it wrong. The next section is just all scriptures that reference the devil, and I left that as reference for the whole episode in case there was a story that you wanted to bring up that you couldn't remember. 


[00:28:30] So we can skip that unless something stands out to you. 


[00:28:34] Ben: Might be a good idea to just start with reading some of these scriptures just so that way because we've just come from a point where we were just talking about Job and saying that there's a lot up in the air. So maybe we should actually go into reading some of the actual scriptures that are cited about him. 


[00:28:49] Gina: Yeah. Anyone stand out in particular? 


[00:28:52] Cody: Let's start with Genesis for sure. 


[00:28:55] Gina: Now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, did God actually say you shall not eat from any tree in the garden? So he's a serpent. 


[00:29:09] Ben: Yeah. And we've talked about this before. 


[00:29:11] Like it's possible that's seraphim. 


[00:29:13] Gina: Or poetry. 


[00:29:15] Ben: Any number of things. Yeah. A lot of that is up in the air. Are there, is there any 


[00:29:19] Gina: poetic and literal at the same time? 


[00:29:22] Ben: Correct. 


[00:29:23] Gina: Talks about him being a fallen star in Isaiah. 


[00:29:27] Ben: There's also the bit in Ezekiel, which we talked about before. It's still questionable whether or not this is just the Prince of Tyre, or if there's a parallel being drawn between the Prince of Tyre and the devil. 


[00:29:37] So that's Ezekiel. 28 verse 15, you are blameless in your ways from the day that you were created till unrighteousness was found in you. 


[00:29:46] Gina: Kind of fits very well into your opinion on God not creating him for evil or to be evil or. Having evil in him 


[00:29:54] Ben: though that does require that it's both referring to the king of Tyre and the double So I don't want to you know die on that hill so to speak. 


[00:30:01] I just think that it fits 


[00:30:03] Gina: Yeah, 


[00:30:03] Ben: then there's also isaiah chapter 14 verse 12 How you are fallen from heaven, O day star, sun of dawn. How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low. That does lead to an interesting question. How did he lead the nations low? How can all of that be put on one person? 


[00:30:22] Cody: And this is like why the Divine Council is interesting, to say the least. 


[00:30:28] Ben: Absolutely. And I know we keep referring to the Divine Council, but it really is an interesting idea. Yeah. 


[00:30:35] Cody: It opens a lot of different scripture up to, okay, how do you interpret this without that viewpoint? How did he make the nations low? 


[00:30:45] All of the nations low, did he? 


[00:30:47] Gina: Is he omnipresent? Is he omnipotent? 


[00:30:50] Cody: And you could argue, oh, he just had influence on the whole world. He was going to and fro. 


[00:30:55] Gina: They had Twitter back then, so it was easy. 


[00:30:57] Cody: It's X now. 


[00:31:00] Ben: I guess this is actually a good point to launch into the next point in the outline. What exactly was his role? 


[00:31:06] Good 


[00:31:06] Gina: question. Was created as a being created by God with a mind, will, and emotion. And this means that because he was created by God, he is not equal to God. 


[00:31:17] Ben: But Gina, there's this common understanding that he's like the king of hell. Like, he's running around with goat legs and a pitchfork and he's all red. 


[00:31:25] And like, he's got these flames all around him. Is any of that true? 


[00:31:29] Gina: No, hell is his punishment just as much as it is anybody else that denounces Christ. He's gonna die there. 


[00:31:36] Ben: But do you have any evidence of that? Because I saw so many TV shows, and it's all very obvious to me that he's definitely the dude with the pitchfork who rules hell. 


[00:31:44] Gina: Yeah, no. Let's see. So, in Matthew 25, 41, it says, Then he will say to those on his left, Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. So, I would say that's pretty good evidence that God is preparing the fire for Satan who introduced all of us to evil. And it's for him, but also for those who don't love Jesus, 


[00:32:13] Ben: for those who follow him and for the humans who would reject Jesus as well. 


[00:32:17] Gina: Yeah, that bears the question though, Cody, does Job 1. 6 mean Satan still has access to God in heaven? 


[00:32:24] Cody: I mean, if you take the literal interpretation and traditional interpretation of that, he was, presented before God. So I would say yes, he's there. So 


[00:32:37] Ben: I would say this is probably one of the strongest arguments against it being the actual devil, because it is tough to make the argument that evil can be in the presence of God. 


[00:32:48] Now there are ways around that. Technically, God is literally everywhere on earth and evil people exist on earth, but there seem to be different levels of God's presence. There are times in all of our lives as Christians where we feel really close to the Lord, and His presence is really powerful. And then there are times where we feel very distant, and He's still there, it's just He doesn't feel as close. 


[00:33:10] So, there are ways you can get around that, but seemingly, This is a section of Job talking about some events in heaven. Can the devil go up into heaven? The interesting thing is that a lot of this seems to be taking place what Cody said before in a courtroom setting and in a courtroom setting you do need opposition. 


[00:33:30] So I would say that this is something that is allowed as an exception. Because by the very nature of the courtroom, you need an adversary. You need someone to stand on the opposite side and present the counter case. So, in order for God to be truly just, He has to have someone who is not Him to make a case for the opposite. 


[00:33:51] Gina: There's also instances in Scripture where God has instructed Satan and he has obeyed. Which I think lends more credibility to the fact that it's, Multiple entities than just one because I don't believe that Satan himself would obey God 


[00:34:08] Ben: I think he has to 


[00:34:09] Gina: really 


[00:34:09] Ben: for instance if the devil were to possess someone and You were to command him in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ to leave would he have to leave? 


[00:34:17] Gina: Yeah, 


[00:34:19] Ben: so then he has to obey, 


[00:34:20] Gina: but then they can come back. 


[00:34:21] Ben: Yes, but that's the thing You don't say come back and literally never return ever again Maybe we should tell people maybe we should should tell demons that more often but the point is that this isn't It's something where even in that moment. He has to obey He has to leave now whether or not he can come back Eventually the whole point of that section in the Bible is about him coming back and then there is nothing there if Christ takes his place He can't return. 


[00:34:46] As long as the house is empty, he can. There are rules to it. The point is that there are rules. No matter what, there are rules the devil has to follow. If he is truly rebellious and is therefore constrained by nothing, why are there rules he has to follow? 


[00:34:59] Gina: I always picture him as this really ticked off dude on a leash. 


[00:35:04] It's like when you see a toddler on a leash and their mom's like holding it and they're walking and then they come to a total stop but the kid is still walking and then is jerked backward. That's how I imagine him. 


[00:35:15] Ben: Now you still could be right Gina, like it's possible that there are different entities that do different things and we all just have bumped them all in and naming them the devil. 


[00:35:23] And the thing is, is in the book of Revelation, there's a bunch of different. Things like there's a beast and there's a dragon and then there are other beasts and they surrender their authority to the dragon and So it's possible that there have been a few different things that we considered to be the devil But there are actually different things and they surrender their authority to the actual big bad devil It's like the capital D devil. 


[00:35:45] Gina: We're not given a hierarchy. 


[00:35:47] Ben: Not really. 


[00:35:47] Cody: No, and through scripture you still have the, you have the Christ motif, the Messiah motif. I think you have that as well on the, the Satan or devil side because Jesus calls Peter Satan. Get behind me Satan. And, um, you know, a lot of people are called, gosh, what is, I can't think right now. 


[00:36:09] But basically they're called sons of the devil. Yeah. Does that mean that they're literal sons of the devil? Does that mean that Peter was literally Satan there? No, but he's getting behind Satan's plan. And the Bible project actually has a really good series called the chaos dragon and stuff. And like you, you can, and then Tim Mackey goes into where you can be part of the chaos. 


[00:36:34] which is anti God, or you can be within God's will. That doesn't mean you're that all the time, but you can be chaos if that's what you choose, and that's the path you choose. You can be sons of the devil if that's what you choose. You can be Satan and following his plan, like Peter was, basically telling Jesus he can't do what he's going to do, and basically be Satan. 


[00:36:59] That's my two cents on that. Taylor 


[00:37:01] Gina: Good one. 


[00:37:02] Cody: You do it. 


[00:37:03] Gina: What's next? Do you believe that he rules over the demonic? Do you think they have to have organized leadership? 


[00:37:10] Ben: Yeah, the question is, what does that even mean? And again, if we don't go with the divine counsel thought, and it's not that we have to, it's just, it seems to be the thing that makes the most sense. 


[00:37:21] But if we don't go with that, then what does it mean that he rules over demons? 


[00:37:25] Cody: It's hard because you get a lot of scripture that backs that up too, that there is a hierarchy to the, the fall, so to speak, or they at least elected him as ruler because it's the devil and all his angels. And the, there's multiple references to him being the king or the prince, the specific area. 


[00:37:45] So you have this hierarchy. That he is placed in throughout scripture So it does seem like there is some sort of hierarchy and he is the worst of the worst 


[00:37:57] Ben: Again, I I do really apologize because I I know that we i'm talking about the divine council idea all the time But functionally it seems like it's the best solution. 


[00:38:08] It's that there were a bunch of logical. It is logical Whether or not it's correct It seems to me the most logical sense that there were a bunch of angels who were put in charge all over the earth And they, many of them became corrupt and essentially started working as gods and being worshipped as gods and demanding horrendous human sacrifice. 


[00:38:29] And then the devil basically came in and he conquered all those lands. He basically forced into subjugation these angels under him. Because he's the strongest. And you see this kind of hierarchy in human evil as well. Even amongst the worst. Most crooked organizations and nations on Earth. There's almost always a, uh, some kind of social structure underneath which the worst person reigns. 


[00:38:54] So it does make sense to me, even with the most chaotic and evil creatures you can imagine, there would be a hierarchy. It's just, it's not one that we have access to. We don't really know much about it, if anything. 


[00:39:05] Cody: No, and we keep going back to it, because one of the best explanations of just how you form your beliefs is, I've heard you have all these different colored rocks on the ground to make a mosaic, but you use scripture as the filter to only let the right size rocks through. 


[00:39:28] Gina: That would be Philippians 4, 8. 


[00:39:31] Cody: And then it just falls into place and putting this divine counsel worldview lets a lot of things pass through that just make a lot of sense and make a bigger picture of that mosaic. 


[00:39:46] Gina: While still keeping God in control and good. 


[00:39:49] Cody: While still filtering it through the Bible, like backing it up with the Bible. 


[00:39:54] Ben: And ultimately, it's something that lets God be God, and lets the Bible be the Bible, and lets the evil in it be the evil in it, and the good be the good. It's just some additional details that help sort some things out. 


[00:40:07] Gina: Welcome to the box we've shoved our religion into. We're such people. That's the thing, 


[00:40:12] Ben: like, no matter what, there is a box. 


[00:40:15] The question is, whose box are you putting everything into? If you say that the Bible is truly the inspired word of God, then automatically you've created a box. This is inspiration. Is anything else inspiration? It's outside the box. 


[00:40:29] Gina: But let's think outside the box. We complicate it so much as people. 


[00:40:34] Ben: Because there always has to be a better explanation or something smart or something that makes more sense to us. 


[00:40:42] Cody: There's always a bigger box too. I don't care how many people fight me on this. The Bible is not the answer to every freaking thing in the world. 


[00:40:51] Gina: We'll fight. 


[00:40:52] Cody: It is not. And I think it's very foolish to claim that. 


[00:40:58] Gina: Shots fired at your wife. 


[00:41:00] Cody: I know you don't believe that. 


[00:41:02] Gina: I do. There's a lot of things that I could draw the parallel and connect it in my own heart. I don't know that it would always work for other people for me to explain it the way I see it. But for me it works. You're not like me. 


[00:41:16] Cody: In certain respects. 


[00:41:17] Yes. Maybe all moral issues. Sure. You can get what toilet paper should we buy? 


[00:41:24] Gina: John the Baptist. 


[00:41:26] Ben: The answer is none. I think. The Bible is ultimately the foundation. Absolutely. That's what the Bible calls Christ, what it calls even itself. Scripture and Christ is the firm foundation. The foundation is not the whole building. 


[00:41:42] And so you're right, Cody, like in the context of this analogy, yeah, you like, just because you have that foundation, you need to build something on it. And so if you were to just sit cross legged in your house and read the Bible every day, you would not get anywhere in life. At some point, you need to start applying the Bible. 


[00:41:59] And applying the wisdom you've learned in it, and in doing so, you will learn things that is not specifically in the Bible, but the foundation of that knowledge is found in it. 


[00:42:09] Cody: And so we talked about it on our, the, the inspiration episode, did God, did God give us the word and the whole meaning of Canon is measuring rod. 


[00:42:21] What are we supposed to be measuring if it's not stuff outside the Bible? Absolutely. So we're told to test everything. What are we supposed to test? Everything against the Bible to see if it's good and it's pure and it doesn't contradict the Bible in any way. Then you have a little bit more leniency there. 


[00:42:41] If you've put it to the test and it passes, then you can, Take that and run with it. I think 


[00:42:47] Gina: that's where the Holy Spirit comes into because you get like personal conviction and you hear from God And if he's hey, you don't do that and you feel convicted and then you do it Anyway, then you're sinning So you have your measuring rod and thanks to Jesus and his sacrifice and the fact that we get the Holy Spirit now Like we do have an additional layer For accountability 


[00:43:09] Cody: and inside of that too, you have community as well. 


[00:43:12] I think it's important to also run things past different people as well. Exactly. And that's scriptural. That's part of kind of the testing the spirits process that scripture outlines is okay. Sanity check on this bin and my way out of left field here. 


[00:43:31] It's, so that's the point of having community and that's why we're called to be a part of the bigger body of the church. Way off topic now 


[00:43:41] Ben: though. Not really. I think there's a way we can tie this in. Give me a second. I think I can tie this all in. 


[00:43:45] Gina: Satan tries to nullify the Word of God. So if we're using the Word of God as our measuring rod and Satan's coming against that and that's in scripture. 


[00:43:55] In multiple places, like, we know that he doesn't want us to trust it. He tries to convince us that it's not true. He tried to convince Eve, and he was successful. So, I'm sure he's successful with the majority of the world that doubts. 


[00:44:08] Cody: And he knows scripture. He 


[00:44:11] Ben: will use scripture against you. He literally did that to Jesus when he was tempting him in the desert. 


[00:44:15] Can you 


[00:44:15] Gina: imagine the audacity? 


[00:44:18] Ben: Yeah, especially 


[00:44:18] Cody: with Some people who think God literally penned the Bible, but 


[00:44:24] Ben: Now that actually brings up an interesting question, now that we brought up Jesus being in the desert. Because there's the thought, while he was out in the desert, and there's the point where the devil says, all you need to do is bow to me. 


[00:44:36] There seems to be some hint there, that essentially that would be Jesus selling his soul. Is it possible for people to sell their souls to the devil? 


[00:44:45] Gina: That's just silly. 


[00:44:47] Ben: But Jesus, there was the story. 


[00:44:50] Gina: You're gonna burn. If you bow down to Satan, you're going to go to hell. If Jesus had bowed down, we wouldn't be saved. 


[00:44:57] Ben: So do you think that was actually an example of the devil trying to get Jesus to sell his soul to him? Or is that something else? 


[00:45:05] Gina: I have to believe that Satan did not comprehend that Jesus was fully God and fully man. Like how could, and I know that I'm probably wrong because I know that when Jesus was born, a lot of angels didn't like it. 


[00:45:19] And so God had to have revealed information to the angels about the purpose of Jesus and what he was coming to do. But like, how stupid. 


[00:45:29] Cody: But there's also, I can't remember where it's at, but it also, scripture says that The whole reason that Jesus spoke and taught in parables was to keep the things hidden from him until the appropriate time. 


[00:45:44] I can't remember where that's at and I'm paraphrasing drastically there. But that was one of the whole reasons that Jesus taught in parables is so that The principalities that are beyond our world didn't know what was going on. 


[00:45:59] Ben: Yeah, I think in this particular instance, this actually wasn't the devil trying to get Jesus to sell his soul to him. 


[00:46:06] I think it was literally him trying to get him to do one evil thing. If even one sin happens, If he loses faith in God in himself for even one second he wins 


[00:46:20] Gina: That's so good ben because of the faith that we lose in ourselves and we give into stupid stuff and he saw jesus as a man 


[00:46:28] Ben: He saw him as a man And that was there is no other time where he could have possibly had any chance against god in a face off And as a man and if he is fully man and fully god That was the one thing the one time he could have gotten him in any meaningful way You And so, it seems like all of that temptation was literally just trying to get him to falter. 


[00:46:52] Like, he, he shows him the nations of the world, and he's, you don't have to sacrifice yourself. I'll make it all irrelevant, I will give you the world, just bow to me. That would be losing faith in himself. That would be rejecting himself, and turning to evil. And even if he didn't give him everything, it didn't matter. 


[00:47:08] Gina: What a beautiful addition to Jesus humanity. Thank you for that. 


[00:47:14] Ben: No problem. But that does go to the wider question. So maybe that wasn't what the devil was doing there. And all he was trying to do was tempt Jesus to do one evil thing and thus completely destroy God. However, can the devil actually get people into contracts where you sell your soul? 


[00:47:33] Gina: I don't know. I mean, he's going to be judged, or he's going to be imprisoned, judged, and executed according to Revelation. It doesn't sound like he has a whole lot of power. 


[00:47:42] Cody: And like hearing some of the testimonies of like the, the Satanists out there, the, their coming to Jesus is pretty powerful in, in the way that they've talked about their, their Their conversion and just the lies that Satan or the demonic will will play especially to those even if they're not believing This whole evil thing anymore. 


[00:48:09] They feel trapped because they've they've made this quote unquote blood contract and I don't know how I feel about all of that, but It's interesting because it's definitely, you can see the mental torment that a lot of these people had during those experience because they truly thought that they had a contract and did sell their soul. 


[00:48:31] Ben: I think there is power in the perception that you can sell your soul to him. And I think that's one of the reasons why I think the devil does encourage that idea, that you can. That there is a line of no return once you sign something over to him. Then one, you no longer have your soul, but give it to him. 


[00:48:49] And two, that he can somehow do things as a result of that. I think there's a lot of misconceptions as far as how all this operates. For one, you don't own your soul. You can't give it to him. 


[00:49:00] Gina: It's like those shows where they go to those storage lockers and buy other people's stuff. We don't own it, and we can't give it freely. 


[00:49:11] And the price of our soul was Christ's sacrifice, and we don't have to accept that, but we've been bought at a very high cost. We can't. Relinquish that that's up to Christ and he's not gonna let go. 


[00:49:29] Ben: I Think oddly enough the best example of what I think is really how this works is A movie called bedazzled starring Brendan Fraser. 


[00:49:41] I know this sounds weird, but In that movie, Brendan Fraser's just a normal guy, and this woman, this very attractive British woman shows up, and she's the devil, and she tells him to sell his soul to her for a certain number of wishes. And every single wish goes horribly wrong. Are you looking at what we 


[00:50:03] Gina: I'm just looking at the movie now. 


[00:50:04] I'm sorry. 


[00:50:06] Ben: Sorry. I, I think that it's going to get a thousand times more traffic now that we mentioned it for the first time in 15 years. 


[00:50:13] Gina: It's from 2000. 


[00:50:15] Ben: It's, it, I keep forgetting what year it is. Yeah, mentioned the first time in 23 years. 


[00:50:21] Gina: Just gonna bless you with that picture of him. I 


[00:50:23] Ben: know. It is one of the, it is a hilarious movie and I actually enjoy it. 


[00:50:28] It's not very well reviewed and not a lot of people seem to enjoy it, but I really like it. But there's a point in the movie where Brendan Fraser's character is thrown in prison and the devil has basically convinced him that Yeah, no matter what, even though these wishes are all going horribly wrong, and he's not getting anything, that, in the end, he still has given up his soul. 


[00:50:52] And he's in prison, and there's this guy in prison with him, and he's like, What are you in here for? And Brendan says, I sold my soul. And the guy says, I hope you got something good for it. He said, I actually didn't get anything. That sounds about right. Anyway, the devil can't possibly take your soul. It's not yours to give. 


[00:51:09] It belongs to God. And the devil may try to confuse you. And get you on the wrong path. But in the end, if you trust him, he'll bring you back. And I think that's the truth. The devil does not own anything. You can't give him anything. He doesn't own anything. He doesn't even 


[00:51:25] Gina: own hell. 


[00:51:26] Ben: No. He does. 


[00:51:28] Gina: That's his tomb. 


[00:51:29] Ben: And that is one of the biggest common misconceptions that the devil is the king of hell. He's not. You're right, Gina. That's the place he's going to be thrown at the end. It's his quarantine zone. It's the fruit of his labor. It's the wages of sin. 


[00:51:42] Gina: I can't wait to talk about hell. 


[00:51:44] Ben: We'll get there. But yeah, you can't make, you can make deals with him, but those deals aren't binding. 


[00:51:52] You can say to him, Hey, I'm giving you my soul. And he'll gladly make you think that you can and that you've given it to him and he'll torment you and he will give you nothing in return. But in the end, the deal means nothing, because you can turn, and you can turn back to Christ. And I don't, can't think of anything dumber that a person could possibly do than try to make a deal with the devil. 


[00:52:11] Thankfully, it isn't a permanent thing. They 


[00:52:11] Gina: don't pay. 


[00:52:12] Ben: No, it don't. 


[00:52:13] Cody: But I want to be famous. 


[00:52:16] Gina: Look at, it's almost a scale of insanity. And we will cover human nature and mental health in a little bit. But it's almost like we are self defeating enough that he doesn't even have to lift a finger. And once we think that we've tied ourselves up in evil, like demonic or satanic things, it's almost like we slide down this slippery slope on our own and he doesn't even have to do anything. 


[00:52:41] We're so self destructive. I think there's a lot of credit that's given to the devil that we really deserve ourselves. Thank you so much for taking the time to listen to our podcast today. If you liked what you heard, please feel free to subscribe and share and leave a positive review. And if you would like to connect with us on social media, you can do so on Instagram and Facebook at the logic of God. 


[00:53:07] You can also send us an email at main dot the logic of God at gmail. com. Thanks again for listening. We hope you have a great day.

What Are Demons? Part 3

[00:00:00] Cody: Hi, thank you for tuning in to the logic of God podcast. I'm Cody 


[00:00:14] Gina: and Gina, 


[00:00:15] Cody: and I'm Ben. If you're returning, thank you for coming back. And if you are a new guest, welcome. Now, 


[00:00:42] Ben: I do think that it's worth it. Covering here because I know someone is probably going to bring it up That there is a mention in the Old Testament of an attempt to contact the dead That seemingly succeeds and that's the story of I believe it's the witch of Endor 


[00:00:59] Gina: and Samuel. 


[00:01:00] Ben: Yeah and Samuel Now, there are a few issues with that story. 


[00:01:03] Real quick, going into the story, uh, the king Saul at the time was struggling a lot, and he was trying to inquire of the Lord. There were no prophets left for him to inquire through, and he wasn't hearing from God at all. In the end, he tried to seek out a medium, or a spiritist, to contact the spirit of Samuel so that he could talk to Samuel. 


[00:01:24] Samuel was a prophet who would live during the time of Saul, so Saul knew That Samuel was a prophet and a holy man and probably have answers from God about what it is that he's searching for. So he went to the witch of Endor and he talked to her and she supposedly conjured up the spirit of Samuel. 


[00:01:43] Gina: He wasn't happy about that. 


[00:01:45] Ben: No, there are actually a few issues with that story. One, the witch is surprised when it happens. If this is something that she habitually does, then why would she be surprised when it works? Two, Saul doesn't see anything. Only the witch does. If you actually read the text, it says, What do you see? Meaning Saul talking to the witch. 


[00:02:05] And she sees According to her, a spirit rising up from the earth. Three, she basically tells him exactly what it is he already knows. She just tells him that his reign's over. Which anyone paying any attention at that time would have known. That's not to say that she didn't see something, Or that 


[00:02:23] Gina: God didn't do something. 


[00:02:24] Ben: Correct. Or that God didn't do something. However, there are just too many details in that story for someone to look at that and say, See, obviously this means that objectively, You can call on the spirits of the dead and a ghost will show up. But I don't know. That's my position on it. What do you guys think? 


[00:02:39] Gina: So I grew up and I've shared, but I grew up with my mom, single mom. She was very involved in the occult and she used to have mediums come to the house with a group of people and we would get told, don't get, don't come out of your rooms. And they would have these seances and things showed up. And I knew this because of the way that. 


[00:03:05] They talked afterwards when they didn't really think I could hear, and some of the stuff that was said, and some of the stuff that was made known, even though nobody in the group knew these things. And also, just the feeling in my home, like the spiritual feeling, was so heavy and dark when those things were happening and afterwards. 


[00:03:29] It was like being smothered feeling. So, you pay a lot of money to have somebody come and tell your fortune or talk to the dead or whatever. And then, you have this like, blanket over your head that you can't really take off. You're like, you're suffocating feeling. And, so if you're calling on something and, expecting it to tell you something, like you're probably going to hear something. 


[00:03:52] It's either a very manipulative, intelligent person that can take advantage of you, or it's something truly evil that knows your weaknesses and is preying on them, but it's not a dead person. There was a time where my stepmom went to see a medium and the medium told her that they saw her mother with a baby that had passed away in the womb. 


[00:04:16] And Of course, she's freaking out, my stepmom, thinking, Oh, that's Gina's baby. Cause I had just lost a baby. And she was like, tell your daughter that her baby's safe and that your mom is taking care of it. And I was, like, really hurting at the time. So I was like, why? What does this mean? And I know now what it meant. 


[00:04:36] But I was trying to figure it out for a couple of months and Cody and I talked about it and it was just sad. Like, it was hurtful to even have it brought back up. It's sad. And to hear, like, that the child's with some dead lady instead of 


[00:04:49] Mm hmm. 


[00:04:50] Gina: And to tell me that the baby is safe and stuff. Like, I was already reassured of that. 


[00:04:55] Demons know stuff. Like, they watch. And they poke us when we're weak. And it's not like Satan wants to get our attention when we're low and bring us what we think is comfort and information and healing and closure. What I've learned is that this pursuit doesn't really bring you closure. It costs you a lot of money, it costs you spiritually, and you end up always wanting more. 


[00:05:22] It's never satisfying. And that's what I've seen in my whole family, because they've all dabbled in it. My mom was the worst. But you just don't understand what you're asking for. What you're really bringing down on yourself and your family, because Satan didn't just prey on my stepmom's vulnerabilities. 


[00:05:39] He preyed on me through her and it was very slick and There were a lot of tears and a lot of confusion and I knew better But it was still very shocking and confusing to me Be careful Even who you talk to about these things because if you're associating with somebody who's doing it Satan's still gonna try to get at you 


[00:05:58] Ben: and that does actually bring us nicely into our next section here 


[00:06:02] Gina: Do we want to say quickly what are not demons? 


[00:06:05] Ben: Sure. So what, we've talked about what demons are, what aren't they? 


[00:06:10] Gina: They're not all knowing. They're not all powerful. They can't read our minds. 


[00:06:15] Ben: So how do you know that they can't read your mind? 


[00:06:17] Gina: Because only God is omniscient. I have to invite them into my mind. And I haven't done that. So, I don't believe that my mind is accessible to the enemy. 


[00:06:27] I don't know what you think. I've heard 


[00:06:30] Ben: from a lot of different people that the devil and demons and whatnot can't read your mind. I don't know if that's true. I know that they can whisper things into your mind. They can make you think things, or In the same way that when I say something to you, I can make you think something because I'm speaking words to you. 


[00:06:48] They speak words inaudibly, and the message gets into your head. And if you accept that thought and make it yours, then it's yours. But if you don't, and you just roll your eyes and you move on with your life, it's not you. How involved they are with your mind at that point, I don't know. Whether it is literally the same thing as just speaking into your ear, and you not hearing the words, but getting the idea. 


[00:07:10] Or them literally connecting to your mind in some way and Sometimes the things that they'll do are a little on point and it's tough to see how they could know certain things Without having some insight knowledge, but it's also been said they're just very good at reading people 


[00:07:27] Gina: Satan is a master manipulator. 


[00:07:29] Like he invented manipulation if you think you're good at it. Satan's a hundred thousand times better and What I've learned from my mom is that if my name is on her lips because of what she's doing Then my name is on Satan's ears and he knows things about me that I haven't shared because of her and That's what I've seen in different attacks that we've had different situations where Cody's have felt evil and Just had really weird experiences I know for a fact that my mind is closed to the enemy But I know that things come up because other people have shared things I've never personally experienced having my mind invaded in that way. 


[00:08:15] And I lived through a lot of occult activity that I haven't shared, but it's, I don't know, I feel very confident that. My mind is not accessible to the enemy. 


[00:08:24] Ben: And if I'm honest, that does make sense to me. If you live your entire life thinking, Oh my goodness, this God hears my thoughts, but also demons hear my thoughts. 


[00:08:32] So I got to be careful about literally everything that I think, no, you should be careful about what you think anyway, but to neurotically feel like the enemy is just crouching in a corner of your mind, listening to your every thought, and it's going to use every thought against you. And twist your thoughts and change you. 


[00:08:48] That's insanity. 


[00:08:49] Ben: That will drive you insane. And the truth is, while we are emphasizing the fact that this is not something that you play with, in context, demons are losers. They have lost. And everything that they are doing is a pathetic, sad attempt at revenge against God. 


[00:09:07] Gina: It's like creature on a leash. 


[00:09:09] There's only so far they can go before their chain runs out. And you have to live in confidence of that because media wants you to believe that Satan knows everything and has all this power. And there's all kinds of TV shows and movies and even Christian stuff that overplays his cards a little bit. 


[00:09:25] He's not that strong. 


[00:09:26] Ben: And I'm glad you brought that up because there is the common trope that's presented in TV of selling your soul to the devil. What do you guys think? Can you? 


[00:09:35] Gina: You can commit your eternal soul and that of your family to marry. We know that. 


[00:09:41] Cody: This is not an episode on that. Do I think you could sell your soul? 


[00:09:45] No. Do I think people are tricked into believing that they can and it prevents them from pursuing God later on? Yeah, I think people are naive and stupid and will believe anything. If you believe that the devil can buy your soul, then, or you can sell your soul for fame, I don't think he has more power than God. 


[00:10:06] If God wants your soul, he's going to get it. 


[00:10:09] Gina: Do you believe that those sacrifices that like people will make to sell their soul, whatever it is that they're agreeing to, do you believe that? Gives a modicum of power to the enemy or to demons or do you believe that they are status quo forever? Does the attention or the sacrifice actually mean anything to them 


[00:10:29] Ben: from what I understand? 


[00:10:30] It means something in as much as The symbology means something. You can't boost a demon's power in any way. Their power is their power. What God lets them do, effectively, is what they can do, seemingly. And what they can do is not very much. However, there are people who do rituals or whatnot, and effectively, that's a very open way of saying, Hey, come here and do whatever you want with me. 


[00:10:56] That is the thing that lets the enemy in. It could be literally anything. 


[00:11:00] Gina: So you're putting spirit into flesh. 


[00:11:03] Ben: Mm hmm. 


[00:11:04] Gina: And it's living out or acting out through a human being, whether it's through possession or influence or oppression. And 


[00:11:12] Ben: we'll get to that. Yeah. But essentially, the rituals themselves don't do anything. 


[00:11:16] Lamb's blood or ram's blood or cow's blood. It doesn't actually have any mystical properties that somehow empower something to do something. It's all symbology. 


[00:11:28] Gina: So what you're doing is swearing loyalty, which is getting you access. 


[00:11:32] Cody: They get the spit in the face of God, which is what they want. And that's what they're getting out of that transaction, so to speak. 


[00:11:43] Having somebody constantly spit in the face of God by doing this blood sacrifice or whatever it is that a demon would request. They're just pushing that further corruption. Even if it's the same thing over and over, you're repeating the corruption and repeating the process of spitting in God's face. 


[00:12:04] Ben: Effectively, animal sacrifice at the very beginning was supposed to be something that pointed the Jewish people in the direction of God. It was letting them know that they couldn't atone for their own sins. And one day, God was going to supply the offering, but they were constantly being reinforced over and over that there needed to be an offering, and no matter what, they could not make themselves right with God, and ultimately, God was the one who, like in the time of Abraham, when Abraham was going to sacrifice Isaac, God provided the sacrifice. 


[00:12:34] Then, now, God has provided Christ. Evil looks at that and says, That's great. I hate God. I hate everything that he's made. I hate everything that he loves. This is meant to be a symbol of his love for man. His ultimate sacrifice. The thing that he is pointing toward. I'm going to corrupt this. I'm going to make it a mockery. 


[00:12:56] I'm going to corrupt it in every reasonable and unreasonable way possible. That's what I want. That's what I want you to do. And effectively, when a human being partakes of that kind of thing, they are also saying, I also, like you, hate God this much. I spit in God's face. I turn my back on everything that God has to offer. 


[00:13:15] I turn my back on his love. Now let's turn our backs on God together. And human beings, being as we are, as limited as we are, don't understand what that means. And there are plenty of people who buy into that, because they don't know what they're doing. And then later on in life, they feel regret. Because when they were young and stupid and feeling edgy, they did something really dumb. 


[00:13:38] Doing stuff like that does not automatically seal your soul off and give it to the devil. The reality is, your spirit is not yours. Christ's sacrifice ensured that. No matter who you are and what you've done, unless you in full knowledge reject God, then there is a way forward for you. No matter what you've done. 


[00:13:57] But still, It's a stupid thing to do. In fact, it's one of the most stupid things you can do. And you're not going to gain anything from it. 


[00:14:06] Gina: You think you're going to get the world, but you don't really want the world. The world is going to burn. It's going to be your jail cell. And, more than likely, people who are operating from that perspective are already very much imprisoned. 


[00:14:22] Ben: Now, Gina, before you mentioned demonic oppression versus possession, what do you mean by that? 


[00:14:29] Gina: So I think it's actually threefold. I think it's oppression, possession, and disease. 


[00:14:34] Okay. 


[00:14:35] Gina: I say that because of what happened in the New Testament when Jesus healed people of spirits that weren't necessarily demons, but more like illness. 


[00:14:46] Cody can talk to that a little bit more, I think. 


[00:14:48] Cody: I think scripture outlines the difference between a Disease versus a possession. There is some instances where, uh, a demonic possession manifested as seizures, but not all seizures are demonic possession, and the Bible is very clear about outlining those terms. 


[00:15:09] different cases. Like, when Jesus healed people, it wasn't always because they had a demon possession that they had the blind man or the lame man. Like, that wasn't a demon possession. There's a clear delineation when Jesus casts out a demon, that's not what he's doing when he's healing. And there's difference between disease and healing. 


[00:15:33] And because you hear a lot, especially in our modern time, that those weren't really demons, they were just sick. They're schizophrenic, they were epileptic, they were mentally ill, and that's what it was. But there's a clear differentiation between illness and demonic that 


[00:15:55] Ben: is in the Bible. I think you're right, and I think there are different conditions for being oppressed versus possessed. 


[00:16:03] For demonic oppression, it seems as if literally anybody can be demonically oppressed. It does seem to happen more frequently with people who are connected in some way, immersed in it. Either they're directly involved in the occult, or they're connected in some way to someone who is involved in the occult. 


[00:16:21] And it can be a few degrees of separation, but that's one of the reasons why you're told not to mess with it. That brushing shoulders with someone who is knee deep in that stuff, it's infectious. It's horrendously terrible. As far as possession, though, there aren't as, nearly as many instances in the New Testament of someone being possessed as oppressed. 


[00:16:44] And I would actually file disease as oppression when it's, when it involves an impure spirit. Because typically it involves something where there's nothing physically wrong with a person, but for whatever reason, something has manifested. Either they have some kind of manic thing where they just can't see or can't figure out what they're looking at, or there was a child who would, you know, throw himself into the fire, but seemed otherwise, you know, Just a kid, but for possession, there was the one guy. 


[00:17:12] I think his name was Simon. I can't remember if it, what, what the guy's name was, if he was even named, but there was a guy who lived off in the middle of nowhere and he was just living off in caves and. this particular area of Israel and no one could hold them down. Anytime they tried to bind them with chains, you could break the 


[00:17:30] Gina: legion. 


[00:17:31] Ben: Yes. 


[00:17:32] Gina: Yeah. 


[00:17:32] Ben: That wasn't the guy's name. 


[00:17:33] Gina: No, it was like the number of spirits. Yes. 


[00:17:35] Ben: There's a guy who claimed to be possessed by just a massive number of spirits. And Jesus asked for the name and he said legion for we are many, meaning there were just tons and tons of impure spirits in the sky and they basically had possessed him and they were speaking through him. 


[00:17:51] That is something that seems to be very rare where someone is fully taken over by an impure spirit or a demon or whatever you want to call it. Or 


[00:17:58] Gina: many of them. 


[00:17:59] Ben: Yeah, or many of them, and Jesus even makes reference to the fact where you can cast out a demon or an impure spirit, it wanders around for a while, it's like, you know what, I'm going to go home, comes back, finds everything well in order, and then invites seven other impure spirits more evil than itself. 


[00:18:13] So, from that you can extrapolate a few different things. 


[00:18:17] Gina: The demons just want to be cool, man. 


[00:18:18] Ben: Yeah, they're just bros, man, just hanging out. But from that you can extrapolate a few things. One, you can't be accidentally possessed. Oppression is a different thing. That's something where Either because you brush shoulders with someone and it's of no fault of your own, or for whatever reason, somehow a demon is just oppressing you because it just hates you, and because it hates God. 


[00:18:41] It can happen through no fault of your own. And in those instances, the cure is actually pretty simple. You rebuke it in Jesus name. In fact, that's the cure for all of this, whether it's demonic oppression versus possession. Christ gives us a very clear cure for all of this. You cast it out in Jesus name, and that's it. 


[00:19:01] Cody: Yeah, sometimes it requires fasting and prayer, but mm hmm. Yeah, it's pretty much cast it out in Jesus name. 


[00:19:07] Ben: And oddly enough, this is something that even non believers could do. It's not simply that the church has been given authority to cast out spirits, it's that Christ's name has the power to do it. 


[00:19:19] And there was a group of non believers who were going around just doing it, saying, in the name of Jesus Christ and, or sorry, in the name of Paul and of Jesus Christ, who Paul teaches, we command you to leave. And they were doing that to impure spirits all over the place and having great success, until eventually they encountered one that required fasting and prayer, and he said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know about. 


[00:19:42] But who are you? Which, oddly enough, I think is actually a point in the favor of fallen angels being the ones involved. Because if it knows Jesus, then wouldn't that imply that it was there to know him? There where? As in heaven. Meaning it had to have been in heaven at some point to have met Jesus. 


[00:19:59] Potentially. It's a point, yeah. He knew of 


[00:20:02] Cody: Paul as well. Yeah, he 


[00:20:03] Ben: said it knows of. So it said Jesus I know, as in I personally know him. Paul I know about, or know of. So, he personally knew Jesus and he knew of Paul. 


[00:20:13] Gina: I'm just thinking the story of how Adam was like made by the clay. I'm just thinking, what was the process for angels, like, how did God? 


[00:20:21] Ben: Yeah, that's, that would have been an interesting subject to cover for angels. Like we really don't know. 


[00:20:28] Gina: I know but it's maybe that's how he knows Jesus just from that one moment. 


[00:20:34] Ben: Mm 


[00:20:34] Gina: hmm I'm a dreamer 


[00:20:37] Ben: It's definitely an interesting thing to think about it said that we don't know more maybe one day we will 


[00:20:43] Gina: what do you guys think? 


[00:20:44] About the statement God can deliver people over to Satan, but believers cannot be possessed 


[00:20:50] Ben: So I think it depends on what you mean by believer 


[00:20:54] Gina: Christ followers 


[00:20:55] Ben: If you are someone who is actively in the spirit That is correct. You can't be possessed. 


[00:21:01] Gina: But the Bible doesn't specifically say that. 


[00:21:03] Ben: Agreed. 


[00:21:04] However, when you look at the analogy that Christ gave of the house being put in order and empty, the reason he gave that analogy is because someone needs to be in the home to keep the spirit out. He was saying that simply casting out a demon or a spirit isn't enough. There needs to be something there so that there is no empty home for them to come back to. 


[00:21:25] The implication, then, is that if a possessed person has the spirits driven out, they should become a believer, or else the same thing's gonna happen again. 


[00:21:34] Gina: But worse. 


[00:21:35] Ben: Yes, but worse. 


[00:21:37] Gina: What about Christians who also practice tarot or have crystals or believe in their star signs? 


[00:21:44] Cody: You're not a Christian. I was gonna say, a Christian, what? 


[00:21:47] Gina: We know people like that. Oh. Are they, is it our place to judge their salvation if they're practicing the occult, but also going to church? 


[00:21:56] Ben: You cannot drink from the cup of Christ and the cup of demons. That's something that's scriptural. I don't remember exactly where, what chapter and verse that is, but that is something that Paul says, I believe. 


[00:22:07] Oh yeah, and he, yeah, so he says that in reference to eating food sacrificed to idols. After saying that you can. Provided that you understand what it is you're doing. He also says that realistically you still shouldn't. Because in context, you're eating food that has been sacrificed to a demon, and you can't drink from the cup both of Christ and of demons. 


[00:22:32] So yeah, I can't remember the exact verse, but yeah, that was the gist of it. And that's the idea. If you are actively entertaining things that are demonic, you can't actively be with Christ. Now I think you can be protected by your ignorance to an extent, but once you understand what it is you're doing, you can't keep doing it. 


[00:22:52] Gina: I'm gonna get spicy for a second. 


[00:22:54] Ben: Please. 


[00:22:55] Gina: What's the boundary? At what point do you cut the world out? Movies that have witchcraft or Halloween or Easter eggs and bunnies. At what point do you say this is the line? How can a Christian be reassured that they're not practicing something demonic? I 


[00:23:13] Cody: think that's part of sanctification. 


[00:23:15] Conviction. The Holy Spirit's here to convict us. So I think if you're having a conviction of that and you continue to ignore it, that's not a good thing. If you're not constantly trying to further yourself in knowledge of what is holy and what is righteous, I think that's I'm not a huge fan of them, but I like the quote is you only believe as much as you follow. 


[00:23:40] If you don't believe what the Bible says, or if you say you believe what the Bible says, but you don't follow it, then I don't think you truly believe it because it says you're going to burn in hell if you don't. So, either you believe that knowing that you're going to burn or you don't truly believe it. 


[00:24:02] Gina: So you have to base it on personal conviction? 


[00:24:06] Cody: I think that's where part of the community and what being part of the body of Christ as the church is. Like people 


[00:24:14] Gina: should If the church is celebrating Halloween. 


[00:24:16] Cody: Ask why question. We've gone to churches that celebrate Halloween. 


[00:24:21] Gina: I know. 


[00:24:22] Cody: And we didn't agree with it, but I don't think celebrating Halloween is inherently bad for everybody. 


[00:24:29] Gina: Is not celebrating a holiday that would be considered pagan or condemning the use of crystals, does that make us superior? Do we have the right to hold that over somebody's head? 


[00:24:43] Cody: No, we're not supposed to boast in ourselves. 


[00:24:46] Gina: What if we're calling them to be accountable? 


[00:24:48] Cody: You can only Bring a horse to water. 


[00:24:51] You can't force them to drink You can call somebody up, but at the end of the day, it's going to be their decision. Paul plants, Apollos waters, the growth is of God. So you, you plant that seed and you water it. You've, you've done your part. You can continue to water it. You can continue to, this is why I don't do, this is why I don't find this holy. 


[00:25:14] We're supposed to set our minds to what we believe is holy and only think about those things. So that's a pretty good defensive. Not celebrating Halloween just in that. 


[00:25:26] Gina: I just wanted to make it a little spicy for a minute. 


[00:25:29] Ben: Am I off base here, Ben? I don't think so. So, you and I, a while back, were having a conversation with a friend of ours, and I believe it was him taking the position that Celebrating Easter wasn't good and celebrating Christmas wasn't good because they are based around pagan holidays that were adopted by Christians and turned into the resurrection of Jesus and the celebration of his birth, whereas it was originally the winter solstice and a celebration of fertility. 


[00:25:57] And he was taking the position that because they are adapted, therefore they are evil, they're tainted by the original celebrations that were taken over. I then asked, what is the third day of the week? There's Sunday, Monday, Tuesday. Tyr's day? Do you know who Tyr is? He's a Norse god. And that's his day. 


[00:26:19] Wednesday, Odin's day, Thursday, Thor's day, Friday, Frey's day. All of the names of the days of the week are pulled from Norse gods. Are we suddenly going to rename the days of the week? Are we, if you're saying, thank God it's Friday, thank God it's phrase day, you just gave thanks, you just gave thanks to two different gods there. 


[00:26:39] How dare you? That's why they're all going out of business. I'm with you, Cody. A lot of this comes down to personal conviction. If you feel that it threatens your immortal soul, if it really genuinely bothers you. to worship God on Easter, or to even do specific, just specific practices, the bunny and the eggs and all that doesn't make any sense in terms of, of Easter. 


[00:27:02] Bunnies don't lay eggs? What? They do. They're just not chocolate. They may look like chocolate, but they don't smell like chocolate or taste like chocolate as it turns out. Do you, are you speaking from experience? Not, not, not personal experience. I know someone who may or may not have had one when they were a child, but That poor soul. 


[00:27:20] Poor soul, who is not me. But there are people who genuinely struggle with these things, and in those instances I do my best not to hound them. I used to. But this is something that, again, I reference this verse all the time, but it's because it's relevant. When Paul talks about food sacrificed to idols, food in and of itself is just that. 


[00:27:40] It's food. And when you eat it while giving thanks to the Lord, it is done unto the Lord. What you are doing is done unto the Lord. If you have a brother who sees you and doesn't have the same courage, The same confidence, the same faith as you, and it causes him to stumble, just don't do it. And that's my opinion on most of these things. 


[00:27:59] It does come down a great deal to personal conviction. Your personal conviction may not be right, but if you do it unto the Lord and that is your conviction, then fine. 


[00:28:10] Gina: Do you think that Celebrating these things is akin to inviting spiritual oppression in any way. 


[00:28:19] Ben: I would say again, it can be depending on your personal conviction. 


[00:28:22] If you personally were to feel like going out for a trick or treat was an act of inviting the devil in, And you did it, then like I said before, with these rituals that people do where it's like the blood of lambs and whatnot, that is not, does not have any power in and of itself what it is, it's a symbol. 


[00:28:41] And if you apply that same idea, then doing something which you believe is wrong and would invite the devil in, you do that knowingly and willingly, while still believing that? Then, yes, it suddenly does become that. 


[00:28:55] Gina: Is it that because of guilt more than it is that because of interaction with the spiritual? 


[00:29:03] Ben: It can be a few different things. I think the enemy takes every position that he can. Any and all of them. I think that there are times where we can feel incredibly guilty for things we don't need to be guilty about. And in those instances, it's important for our brothers and sisters to help liberate us. 


[00:29:20] from our own little delusions, and we all have our own little bugaboos, our own little delusions that we need to be freed from. But there are some times where we're living in sin and we don't understand it, and the effects of sin carry with us. You can be unknowingly sinning. Absolutely. And in those instances, it's important for your brothers and sisters to call you out. 


[00:29:39] Now, there are things that aren't sinful, but because you do them and to you, you genuinely feel like they are sin, then they're sin. For instance, let's say there's a book on the table. Let's say I genuinely had a conviction in my heart. I genuinely felt this, and it's wrong. But I felt like if I picked up that book and set it exactly back where it was on the table, that Gina would die. 


[00:30:02] And I just got so mad at Gina. I said, you know what, Gina? And then I picked up the book and then I put it down and I closed my eyes and I hold my hands back because I think, oh my goodness, I just killed Gina. I just killed Gina. And then I open my eyes and you're still here. Would you feel really upset if I did that and I felt that? 


[00:30:18] You probably wouldn't feel good for many reasons, but Yeah! One, you were crazy enough you thought that doing that to a book would do something. 


[00:30:24] Gina: That's like the step on the crack and you break your mother's back. Yes. 


[00:30:28] Ben: If your mom is with you and you genuinely believe that stepping on a crack will break your mother's back, if you start dancing on that crack, Yes! 


[00:30:35] Cody: Normally I did test that theory to see if it actually worked. Does it? No, it does not. But 


[00:30:40] Gina: it electrocutes her. 


[00:30:42] Ben: Cracks are shaped like lightning, so that makes sense. 


[00:30:45] Gina: Yeah. 


[00:30:46] Ben: But yeah, even with that, there are people who hold superstitions and these superstitions aren't real. But because they do them thinking that specific things will happen, that makes it evil. 


[00:30:56] It's not that burning incense is in and of itself evil. It's if you think that you're doing it to accomplish something evil, then it is. 


[00:31:03] Gina: At what point, what's the boundary between conviction and legalism? 


[00:31:08] Cody: In a word, humility. 


[00:31:09] Gina: I like that. 


[00:31:12] Cody: Paul says that all things are fine to do, and I'm widely paraphrasing here, all things are okay to do through Christ because Christ has paid the ultimate sacrifice. 


[00:31:25] Anything we do can be covered by Christ. Does that mean we should continue doing it? 


[00:31:30] Gina: No, I think I ask these questions for a few reasons one because my family a lot of them are still tied up in what I grew up in and i've been accused of trying to force my religion on them and being legalistic and condemning them Even though they haven't chosen jesus and i'm just trying to explain and i'm not i've not always been delicate or articulate or eloquent and i've learned a lot god has taught me a lot but These are the types of things that, as I've gotten away from the occult, they have stood out to me as meaningful. 


[00:32:08] And I have felt convicted about, and so I have stopped participating in and not everybody understands why, and I don't expect everybody else to be like, Oh, you're right. But I feel that way. And I think sometimes I feel that way because of fear, but also conviction. So I wanted to bring up these points because I haven't always been gentle and I haven't had a good delivery, but also I don't think it's universal, so. 


[00:32:35] I 


[00:32:36] Cody: mean, there's certain things like knowing your family that is, you know, it's like the rib versus spine issue. Actively worshiping idols is a no go. I don't care who you are. That is a hard line. But me not being able to get your family to believe Reformed theology, but they're in the free will boat. That, that can go. 


[00:33:02] Gina: Yeah. Well, and that's, I had a dream this week about my aunt and just studying the Bible with her. And God was like, you don't have to convert her because she's a Catholic. Just get her to read the gospel. So it helps to have the guidance from the Lord and to learn new like types of delivery, but, and I'll never give up, but I did want to touch on like the aggression that can come with. 


[00:33:27] Halloween and things that are meant in good fun as opposed to meant to worship something evil. 


[00:33:34] Ben: There's a verse in Ecclesiastes that always used to bother me when I was younger where Solomon says don't try to be too good or too evil. Why destroy yourself? That didn't make any sense to me as a young Christian, because you would think you should always be seeking to do what's right all the time. 


[00:33:59] And it's Ecclesiastes, you're not sure if this is Solomon being his usual pessimistic self, if he's having a little nugget of lucidity in his little Wisdom. Yeah, in his little bout of self pity. But I think that is something that's right. It's not that you actively seek to do evil, you do always seek to do good, but if you're trying to be perfect all the time, you're gonna go insane. 


[00:34:27] If you have a very strict moral code, and you believe that what you believe right now is 100 percent correct, and you have to follow it, because otherwise you're intentionally doing evil, and intentionally doing evil is a no go. You just have to adhere to the rules. 100 percent to your standards at all times that would drive anybody crazy. 


[00:34:46] Gina: You have to remember grace. 


[00:34:49] Cody: It's hard for us to give ourselves grace. At least for me. It's hard for me 


[00:34:54] Gina: There's this journal that I have called a standard of grace. It's for women 


[00:34:58] Ben: You say that like you have to explain it. It's for women. 


[00:35:01] Gina: I wish that there was more like that for men, cause I haven't, maybe it exists, I haven't seen it though. 


[00:35:06] But we are culturally perfectionists, especially with the influencer culture, we want to put our best appearance forward and we care a lot about that, but we need to extend grace to ourselves and to others. And that's very hard, and it does take humility, like you said, it takes grace. Like, you have to decide, is this a hill that is worth dying on, because if it's, if it's a hill that impacts their eternal soul, it is probably worth going there. 


[00:35:35] But if it's just a legalistic kind of pride thing where it's, you're wrong. You know the, I know the history, do you know the history? Let me throw it in your face. 


[00:35:43] Cody: I don't think there's anything wrong with expressing your reason for not believing that's something holy to do. 


[00:35:51] Gina: No, but to throw it in their face and be like, I'm better because, and if you did this, you'd be better too, but I'm still better because I did it first. 


[00:36:02] Cody: It's, yeah, then you just got to think of Paul, like, Paul or any of the disciples. Paul I reference because he talks about it a lot, but the milk of a new believer. how dumbed down and how he probably just wanted to shake the crap out of people because they're just not getting it. Like he was this wealth of knowledge and he knows the right way, but he's constantly talking about how you guys have been on milk forever. 


[00:36:31] Let's move on. Let's start doing more holy things. Like we have the foundation we're going through Hebrews right now. He even 


[00:36:38] Gina: acknowledged the backsliders who went back to milk. 


[00:36:42] Cody: Hebrews mentions that too, is like the, we're basically having to re, relay the foundation. You guys are still on milk and you should have progressed much further than this, but now I'm having to teach you the foundation again. 


[00:36:57] And it's very relatable in these situations. And it's not that you're necessarily right and that they're wrong, but there is reasons that you will view something and know somethings that sin that people won't agree with you on. I think 


[00:37:13] Gina: there's great value in these conversations. We learn a lot just having these conversations together, but having them with other people, it's helped develop our maturity. 


[00:37:24] And if you hold it all in and you're like secretive about whatever you're doing, whether it's convicted you or not, like you're not necessarily going to grow as quickly because you're not. You're not sharing. And I know we got off topic, but I wanted to talk about that too. 


[00:37:42] Cody: How awkward would it have been? 


[00:37:45] Paul says when you're with the Gentiles, you act like the Gentiles. How awkward would it be for. Like his first time doing that, like when he came to that realization, he was the Pharisee of all Pharisees. So Gentiles were not a thing. Associating with them. 


[00:38:02] Gina: Go be them. 


[00:38:02] Cody: Yeah. And then now he's, Oh, when you're with Gentiles, act like the Gentiles. 


[00:38:07] Ben: I think God definitely, if not a sense of humor, has a very strong sense of propriety. That's about the most fitting thing I can think of. That the guy who is the most uptight, adherence to the law, the pharisee among pharisees being taught by the highest pharisee of the time, He has to go out and talk to these unclean, uncircumcised guys who know nothing about anything. 


[00:38:30] They don't even have the foundation of the basic scriptures from the Old Testament. And he has to bring them from the ground up. And yet, he started to grow to have much more respect for that group of people. Because they so hungrily devoured the good news. And with the Jewish people, he constantly had to keep going back to And I think it was because they were just so grounded in the old ways. 


[00:38:54] In the value of circumcision and the value of the law, and that's why so much of Paul's focus when he talks to the Jewish people is specifically about those things. 


[00:39:04] Cody: I 


[00:39:05] Ben: mean, tying this all into, you know, legalism versus personal conviction, it's all about, you know, It's like, when you're looking at someone's bad behavior, is this something that is producing fruit that's poisonous, that's dangerous? 


[00:39:20] If so, then it really needs to be addressed. 


[00:39:22] Gina: What about when in church, you hear people describe things like, I saw a demon come out of this person. Or they say, she has the spirit of Jezebel. When it comes to like demonic stuff in the church, those are the types of things that I'm hearing currently. So how can you speak to that? 


[00:39:42] Is that something that's real? Is it valid? Is it demonic truly? Is it spiritual truly? Or is it just somebody judging another person through legalism? 


[00:39:53] Cody: I hate this spirit of Jezebel talk like it. It's so common and like every, I know I was 


[00:39:58] Gina: recently accused of having it every 


[00:39:59] Cody: single church and like it, it pops up. 


[00:40:02] She's got the spirit of Jezebel. She's just this charlatan and it's so freaking frustrating because one, you're talking about your brother and sister in Christ and 99% of the cases and. Two, like, how is that not fall under gossip? Like, you're, you're taking on that spirit more than the person that you're accusing on in most of these cases. 


[00:40:27] And it's just thrown out there. Read who Jezebel was. She was a terrible person. She 


[00:40:32] Gina: was a murderer. She was promiscuous. That's the piece I was thinking of. She was a thief. She was a liar. 


[00:40:41] Cody: And I bet that Susie is not any of those things. So putting that on her is just wrong. 


[00:40:48] Gina: Is it some, in some way, a form of spiritual warfare or is it truly just the flesh? 


[00:40:54] Cody: As far as somebody having the spirit of Jezebel? Or 


[00:40:56] Gina: being accused of having it? 


[00:40:58] Cody: I think all accusations of somebody having the spirit of Jezebel are just purely gossip and 


[00:41:04] Gina: So it's flesh. 


[00:41:05] Ben: Yeah to be fair. I do think that it is spiritual warfare. Just not in the way the people bringing it up Think it is I think that there is a genuine potential for an evil spiritual influence, let's say. 


[00:41:20] For the people who are actively going around accusing people of having the spirit of Jezebel, those tend to be people who are always doing that kind of thing. Yeah, they're the Oprah Winfrey of the spirit of Jezebel. 


[00:41:32] Gina: The moral busybodies that we've talked about? Yes, 


[00:41:34] Ben: the moral busybodies. And it is almost like there is a negative spiritual influence over that person's life. 


[00:41:40] They feel compelled to constantly be involved in everyone's affairs. And they're the gossips. They're the people who have no real benefit to the church, no real benefit to anybody. And they always feel like they have to be inserted into everything. When these people accuse you of having the spirit of Jezebel, it is not the case. 


[00:41:58] If anyone has a spirit of Jezebel, it's them. 


[00:42:01] Gina: I would say too, Jezebel was a person. She wasn't a demon. She wasn't an angel. She wasn't a spiritual being outside of being made in the image of God, just like all of us. I have to say as a woman and just studying in women's ministry, I don't believe that there's such a thing as a supernatural spirit of Jezebel. 


[00:42:19] I don't believe that she is a ghost haunting us and can inhabit our bodies and minds and and act out at other people. I think it's an excuse. Like it's a, it's like name calling and I just don't see it as a valid spiritual like phrase, I guess, or title. 


[00:42:37] Ben: Yeah, I think people are effectively swapping the word attitude with the word spirit. 


[00:42:42] Saying someone has an attitude like Jezebel is closer to what they're actually saying, but they're trying to apply a veneer of spirituality to it. And I agree with you. It's not that Jezebel herself turned into an evil, wicked spirit that's traveling the churches of the continental U. S. and causing all kinds of havoc. 


[00:43:00] Oh, especially in the South. 


[00:43:02] Gina: Bless her heart. 


[00:43:04] Ben: But, It. That's it. That isn't to say that there aren't negative spiritual influences in the church. Yeah. Or over individual people, but you'll find that in those instances it's not helped at all by gossips in the church pointing to people and saying that they have a negative spiritual influence. 


[00:43:20] Gina: Jezebel. 


[00:43:20] Ben: Exactly. 


[00:43:22] Cody: How come guys don't have a cool, like 


[00:43:24] Gina: you are, you're under biblical spirit of Baras. 


[00:43:27] Ben: Yeah. Something like that. I . I'm with you, Cody. I feel left out. 


[00:43:32] Gina: I'll have that Standard of Grace book cover it when it's written for men. 


[00:43:35] Ben: Oh, awesome. Thank you. 


[00:43:38] Gina: So what about the people who like, they come into church and they're like, I was in small group last night and such cast a demon out of someone. 


[00:43:48] Is that real? Does that really happen? Is that possible? Is it credible? 


[00:43:53] Cody: Possible? Maybe. Probable? 


[00:43:56] Ben: Not likely. So the question is, who is saying this? Once again, you can usually tell with the type of person. If there's the same kind of woman who's been saying spirit of Jezebel comes to you and says, Gina, you know, the other day I saw a demon get cast out. 


[00:44:13] Oh, it was a spirit of Jezebel. Odds are. Probably hyperbole. Probably exaggeration of some kind. But if it's someone like Cody, and we are coming from a Bible study or something, and Cody comes to you at night, and he takes you aside, it's the craziest thing ever. I don't really know what, how to describe it. 


[00:44:31] I don't even know if it really happened, but I think There might have been casting out of a demon or something like people who generally go through these things. There's an element of doubt of fear of uncertainty because you don't even want to believe the thing that you just saw. And it usually comes from people you can trust. 


[00:44:49] Always take it with a grain of salt. Who is telling you this? What is the situation? Nabeel Qureshi himself talked about how there were a couple of demons that were cast out by his prayer group from when he was an early Christian. And I happen to believe Nabeel because Nabeel has no reason to lie about this stuff. 


[00:45:04] Plus I got to see a lot of him from his later years where sadly he had developed stomach cancer and whatnot. But, yeah, he's a man who genuinely believed and loved the Lord and that was reflected in his life by the fruit of the tree I know him. 


[00:45:16] Gina: Growing up, having experienced demonic, dark stuff, somebody that comes to you with a smile on their face, And tells you that they saw a demon come out of someone's ears or whatever uh, they don't know what they're talking about and they probably didn't see what they think they saw and Mental illness especially is present Very strongly right now in our culture and I think it gets confused a lot with demonic But I don't think it always is demonic and praying really hard for somebody and then them feeling healed doesn't equate necessarily to demonic exorcism. 


[00:46:02] And I want to say that from personal experience. If you have seen that. You're not singing it from the rooftops like a bird, you're holding that and analyzing that and praying about it and sharing only as wisely as you can, because you guard your heart and you don't lay your pearls before swine. So, I ask that question because we hear that a lot, being in ministry, and it comes from people of all walks, like very mature people, very immature people, but I think that it's misunderstood or misinterpreted a lot. 


[00:46:37] If it was real, you would be afraid. God is in a spirit of chaos and God is in a spirit of fear. But if a demon came out of a person in front of you, that would bring a certain element of trauma, I think. 


[00:46:49] Ben: Potentially. I think no matter what, it does evoke strong feelings. It's your coming face to face with true evil. 


[00:46:56] It's not natural evil. Natural evil is bad in and of itself. But spiritual evil, it's like a whole different dimension to evil we can't wrap our minds around. It's the idea that there was something that was once good and pure has fully rejected God and turned itself over to the most debased, debaucherous, disgusting inclinations possible. 


[00:47:22] Fully and with complete knowledge turning away from God. Turning away from anything good. What on earth would something like that be like? And to see that be in a person, and to see a person finally be free of it. That's not a fun thing. That's not an interesting thing. That's not a oh, you know what chaps the other day Yeah, I I happen to spy a little curious thing. 


[00:47:47] It's not a curiosity 


[00:47:49] Gina: and it's not something that can be done The stories in scripture where it was done improperly Made it worse. It didn't make it better Mm 


[00:47:59] Ben: hmm And even if you do succeed unless the Holy Spirit comes in to replace what's kicked out you might as well have not bothered 


[00:48:08] Gina: Yeah, you've done more harm than good, I think. 


[00:48:12] Thank you so much for taking the time to listen to our podcast today. If you liked what you heard, please feel free to subscribe and share and leave a positive review. And if you would like to connect with us on social media, you can do so on Instagram and Facebook at the logic of God. You can also send us an email at main. 


[00:48:31] thelogicofgod at gmail. com. Thanks again for listening. We hope you have a great day.

What Are Demons? Part 2

[00:00:00] Cody: Hi, thank you for tuning in to the Logic of God podcast. I'm Cody. 


[00:00:16] Gina: I'm Gina. 


[00:00:17] Cody: And I'm Ben. If you're returning, thank you for coming back. And if you are a new guest, welcome. 


[00:00:35] Gina: Do we want to get into the descriptions in scripture of spirits and demons? 


[00:00:41] Ben: No, we can talk about some of these things. So are there examples outside of the devil himself of demons or spirits like that in the Bible? 


[00:00:50] Gina: There are a couple of different things described. Like, it's hard to know sometimes if they're really demons or not, because there'll be like spirits and then there's different beings that sound like they could be evil but may not be evil. 


[00:01:04] You can find the full version of this podcast on our website at www. thebibleconversation. com. It can be confusing, and if you watch TV shows and movies that kind of explore, like, demons, it makes, it adds, like, a layer that you need to unlearn in order to study these accurately. 


[00:01:21] Ben: I'll be honest, I haven't found many references. 


[00:01:26] There's words that are typically, in Christian tradition, attributed to the devil. So there's Belial, there's, uh, The accuser, there's the devil, there's Satan, all of those seem to refer to the same person in general Christian tradition. Though there are some Christian traditions that treat them as different spirits, but in the end it's all evil. 


[00:01:48] It's all under the same umbrella of dark, evil things you shouldn't be playing with. For myself, I don't really need it to be anything other than that, but I don't know. Cody, you know anything about that? 


[00:01:59] Cody: Besides, like, specific names, like, I think Azazel's the one that they use for, like, the hairy goat. 


[00:02:06] Ben: Yeah. 


[00:02:06] The, the one that consumes the scapegoat that's sent off into the desert, though I don't believe Azazel is actually named in the Bible. 


[00:02:13] Gina: No, it's not. It's Jewish mythology. Yeah. Jewish 


[00:02:16] Ben: mythology. What is in the Bible is the idea of the scapegoat, where all of the sins of Israel would be put on the scapegoat. 


[00:02:22] The goat and it would be sent off to wander into the desert which is typology for christ going off into the desert 


[00:02:29] Gina: So there's a couple of creatures named in scripture There's of course the nephilim and giants and then levi leviathan and behemoth 


[00:02:40] Ben: Those I wouldn't but they're not demonic. 


[00:02:42] Gina: No, they're just creatures that i'm like, I don't know. 


[00:02:45] They're like spiritual Things in the bible i'm just trying to but then there's Beelzebub, which was in Matthew, and there's I 


[00:02:56] Cody: mean, you have the four horsemen are usually depicted as separate entities from the devil, but yeah, those could be something that God commissions as well. 


[00:03:06] Ben: They could be purely symbolic. 


[00:03:08] They could be actual spirits working on behalf of the Lord. The tough thing with talking about the actual naming of anything aside from the devil himself is that we're not really given names for anything. We're given Like the Egyptian gods and that may not be their actual names. So like raw 


[00:03:28] Gina: deities and stuff like that 


[00:03:29] Ben: yeah, so like Dagon and Ball and Ashera Like these are all most likely demons, but one it may not be their actual names and two they're just false gods They're either demons or they're just idols that people worshipped and did terrible things to to honor 


[00:03:47] Cody: Yeah, one of the ones I hear a lot, though, is I think it's Mamum or Mammon. 


[00:03:52] Yeah, the love of money. I don't know exactly how they get that. I know that's used in, I think, Matthew or something. I think it's because the spirit of Mammon or something like that. Yeah. Is that similar to the spirit of Jezebel though? I don't know. Like, what do you guys think? So in 


[00:04:06] Gina: Revelation 18, Babylon is given over to the spirit of Mammon, which translates to money, wealth, and material possessions. 


[00:04:13] Ben: Yeah, I'll be honest. That's weak in terms of saying that this is an actual spirit. Because we talk about spirits of greed, spirit of anger, spirit of 


[00:04:23] Gina: I put, so I put the described spirits from scripture because we have more now. And I wanted to take it back to the roots. So we have seducing spirits in 1st Timothy 4, 1. 


[00:04:36] We have lying spirits in 1st Kings 22 and 2nd Chronicles 18. Foul spirits from Revelation 18. Familiar spirits from Leviticus 19, 20 and Deuteronomy 18. 11 and then 1 Samuel 28 9 evil spirits and judges 9 23 1 Samuel 16 14 through 23 I'm not even going to read the rest and then the prince of the kingdom of Persia in Daniel 10 13. 


[00:05:05] And then there's also spirits like frogs as apocalyptic symbolism that John wrote about. And that's literally it. That's all I could find. 


[00:05:14] Ben: Yeah. And when you compare that to the names of angels, which, again, fairly sparse, you don't get much that's solid. 


[00:05:23] Gina: But at least with angels, there's some descriptions. 


[00:05:27] It's hard because in the Bible, demons appear to be across the board like mysterious and they might look like people, but they might look like frogs, but they might look like hairy goat dudes or serpents. So it can be really confusing. And I think people get obsessed with wanting to know what they're called and what they look like, because they want to know what to be on their guard against. 


[00:05:49] But I think there's a reason that it's ambiguous and mysterious, because if God wanted us to know what they look like and seek it out, he would have told us to do it, but he's telling us not to. 


[00:06:00] Ben: I think In terms of angels, we're told what they look like. For the times where we see Gabriel, or we see the commander of the armies of the Lord, which could be Michael or it could be Jesus, there are points where we're shown things and said, this is an angel. 


[00:06:14] And either they look like they're human, or they are humanoid, meaning looking similar to humans, but they have certain characteristics other than humans. Like they have Wheels. I'm talking about actual named things. But yeah, they have Skin that's like metal, and they have brilliant shining eyes, and they have wings. 


[00:06:30] So, they look more like glorified versions of us. Which makes sense because, you know, they're spiritual, and they serve God directly. There's, there's a beauty and an honor to them that we don't have yet. When it comes to things like demons, it seems like they're just pathetic. Like, even in the times in the Old Testament, where they're seemingly referenced dark and impure spirits, it's, they're, they're tools that have chosen to rebel against their use. 


[00:07:01] They're things that have rejected their creator. And so they just fall into dishonor, and so you wouldn't really expect them to have that same honorable, glorious form. Even when they talk about the devil, it's, he masquerades as an angel of light. He isn't an angel of light. He has to masquerade as one. He has to disguise himself. 


[00:07:21] And, yeah, I would imagine they don't look like much. They've forsaken what it is God made them to be. And so, they'll look like anything and everything. They're ultimately in rebellion constantly. 


[00:07:34] Gina: It's interesting, too, because there's a lot of animalistic references for demons, like pythons and mermaids and stuff like that in certain translations of the Bible. 


[00:07:48] You don't really hear angels being described as animals, but you do hear demons and evil creatures being referred to as animals. It helps differentiate, I think, like, their value in the spiritual realm. Like, they are, they're not equal to people. They're even as low as an animal. And 


[00:08:08] Ben: when you look at the biblical curse, When you talk about the Garden of Eden, you will crawl along the earth on your belly and you will eat the dust of the earth, and there will be an end between your offspring and hers, and her offspring and yours, and you will snap at his heel and he will crush your head. 


[00:08:29] They get the shaft end of this exchange. You get the feeling from the very beginning, they were doomed to a life of disgrace once they turned their back on God. 


[00:08:39] Gina: We talked a lot about what demons are. I want to ask a question and then I want to ask, or I want to talk about what demons are not. What do ghosts and like, mystical spirits have to do with demons? 


[00:08:54] Cody: I don't know. I don't really believe in the whole supernatural haunted house ghost stuff. Like 


[00:09:01] Gina: what about like a medium who channels the dead? Is that a ghost? Is that a demon? What would you say like your belief is? Because that's to me as somebody who grew up in the occult, that's one of the more common curiosities is like channeling and mediums and stuff like that. 


[00:09:23] So I would really like to know what your perspective is. I know what I believe. And I know that scripture doesn't necessarily. say, but I would like to address it just because that to me, it's not, there's no difference, but what 


[00:09:37] Cody: would you, it's hard because I know we've said on previous podcasts is God wouldn't tell us to do something that's not possible. 


[00:09:43] So contacting the dead and what mediums and sorcerers are about is forbidden. And I think it's logical to believe that it's forbidden because it can happen. Do I think most mediums and fortune tellers of today are contacting spirits? No, maybe some of them. I might give some of them the benefit of the doubt of connecting something. 


[00:10:08] I don't think it's good if they are, but I also think most of them just have a, either a good way about reading people, or usually the people who go to those want something out of it, and they're very forward about what they want out of it, so it's easy to play the psychology game with those people. 


[00:10:27] Ben: Agreed. I think that most of the time There is a natural, reasonable explanation for what a medium or a spiritist does or says. However, just pulling from my own personal experience, and we'll get into that later, I won't go into it now. I would say that yes, it is possible for there to be something like a haunted house or something like a spiritist or a medium actually contacting a spirit. 


[00:10:57] I don't believe you can contact the dead. I don't believe you can contact the ghosts of loved ones reaching into heaven or hell once you're there. And there is some discussion in Christian and Jewish tradition about how long the spirits of the dead hang around the earth. There is no benefit to that discussion whatsoever. 


[00:11:19] None. Because there is no answer. That the Bible gives us at the very least 


[00:11:24] Gina: so would you say then that more than likely it's either a very unkind person or Something demonic that is speaking to or through someone for the purposes of just perpetuation of evil not necessarily actually accomplishing Something honest. 


[00:11:44] Ben: It's either a charlatan or a demon. 


[00:11:46] Gina: Yeah 


[00:11:48] Ben: And that's one of the reasons why I believe the Bible says you should be so careful about getting involved in any of this. Like you said, Cody, it's, the Bible doesn't tell you not to do something when it's impossible. In this particular instance, however, it's not that your reaching out to the dead is wrong because reaching out to the dead is wrong. 


[00:12:08] It's, reaching out to the dead is wrong because you can't, and instead you'll find yourself in contact with something infinitely worse. 


[00:12:15] Cody: Correct. We're trying to play in a realm that we know nothing about. Yeah. Like, how do we verify it's our loved one that has moved on? 


[00:12:26] Ben: Mm hmm. And, this is one of those areas where it's just, if someone is trying to convince you to go in and do a spiritual reading or something like that, don't entertain it. 


[00:12:36] Just don't. It doesn't matter if it's a charlatan, it doesn't matter how badly you want to hear from a loved one, it doesn't matter what it is you're struggling with, just please don't do it. 


[00:12:46] Gina: There's a lot more healing available with God than there is with something else. And more hope. And I think as Christians, Keeping in mind our duty to share the gospel, like, you don't want to have those regrets where you feel like you need to contact them after the fact. 


[00:13:06] If you share the gospel with people and are confident that they've received it from you, Like it's not your job to save them, but at least you have the confidence that you did what you needed to do. You said what you needed to say while they were here, and you know where you're gonna see them again. 


[00:13:24] Ben: Now, I think one of the largest concerns that a lot of spiritual teachers have when reaching this subject is the very real concern that people will try to dive too deep And be drawn in to try to reach out in an unhealthy way to either angels or demons and effectively end up doing something dark, doing something stupid. 


[00:13:46] Gina: And there are valid emotions that lead people down that path, like grief and loss and destitution and desperation, but it doesn't make it valid that you're turning in that direction. 


[00:13:59] Cody: Now, and some people enter in with the right, the right intentions, like understandable intentions. Yeah. I've been personally at a point reading the supernatural events in the Bible. 


[00:14:14] You hear more about the demonic stuff nowadays than you do any of this spiritual gifts, so to speak. And if my mental process through that was if I could prove that there's demons, then obviously there's God on the other side of that. So if I see a demon, then I'll know there's a God. And it came out of an unhealthy place of questioning faith. 


[00:14:42] Gina: Like wanting to hear that voice and have that tangible experience. 


[00:14:47] Cody: Yeah, because I would, I would tell myself that, okay, I'm not hearing from God how I want to, so the alternative would be encountering a demon. Not that I wanted to do anything with it or learn from it, but if that is true, then God is also true. 


[00:15:04] You can't have spiritual possession and there not be. God on the other end of it. 


[00:15:10] Ben: Yeah, it's a reasonable thought, and I have known of a lot of Christians who feel like, because they haven't interacted with negative spiritual things in any meaningful way, or at least they don't think they have, that somehow there's something wrong. 


[00:15:26] That they really should be driving out an evil spirit or something. And in some ways it's going to be a confirmation. Because we all have doubts. No matter what. No matter how many things that we see. No matter what miracles God works in our lives. There's always an element of doubt. The Apostle Paul himself said, If we're wrong about this, we are the most to be pitied. 


[00:15:46] Even he had doubts. John the Baptist had doubts, and he literally did backflips in his mom's womb when he came close to Christ. So, we should expect to have our own doubts, and we need to be able to deal with them. And it is unfortunate that there are a lot of people who feel like the best way to confirm is to have some kind of interaction with true spiritual evil. 


[00:16:06] And, from the bottom of my heart, don't. Don't seek it out. Do not do it. 


[00:16:13] Gina: You're gonna hear some stories tonight. You don't know what you're biting off 


[00:16:17] Cody: and I think a lot of Christians go in with the mindset that oh, I've got the Holy Spirit I'm untouchable type of thing and I do think that's true to a certain extent But that is a terrible mindset to have I do feel like that is Putting the Lord your God to the test at that point and we're told not to do that 


[00:16:40] Ben: God is not an everything proof shield. 


[00:16:42] He's not going to protect you from every bad thing in the world. I do think that he will protect you from being possessed. I do think you actually have to actively seek that evil in order to be possessed by it. However, that kind of evil can cling to you. You guys had talked about some struggles that you had just a few weeks ago, and we can go into that later if you guys want. 


[00:17:05] I know you have other stories. But as for myself, This isn't a story I've shared on this podcast before, because I find that it's tough to believe if you've never encountered this kind of thing before. Cody and Gina have heard this story before, but for those of you who haven't One of the earliest memories that I have is I was back when I was a kid and I was living in Wisconsin. 


[00:17:28] I was probably about four years old. I was sleeping in my brother's bed and I don't know why I was there, but I was laying in that bed and I rolled over on my side and in front of me was a man without a face. It was just a dark silhouette, a man without a face made of pure darkness. And I looked at him and I thought, since I was a really little kid, I thought it was my brother because I was in his room and I was sleeping in his bed. 


[00:17:54] And so I reached out and I just slapped the side of my bed because it was annoying. It's like, I'm trying to sleep and this faceless dude who I guess is my brother, I can't see too well, is here. And then he just, Flip back and disappeared over the side of the bed and I quickly got up and looked over the side of the bed and it was gone and I thought that was weird. 


[00:18:12] I saw him. I know I saw him. He was right there. I found out later just talking to my parents and some of my brothers and sisters. I kept this memory with me forever. But it was when I was still fairly young but heard the other stories. But I found out I wasn't the only person who saw stuff in that house. 


[00:18:32] My mom one night was just sitting in the kitchen, and a black cat just walked into the kitchen and then walked out. And my mom was sitting there thinking, Huh, that's weird. Wait, we don't have a cat. And she jumped up and she ran over to look where the cat was, and the cat had disappeared. There was another night where my mom and dad were trying to sleep, and then they looked up and there was a faceless man crawling around on the ceiling. 


[00:18:55] Gina: It's so weird. I'm sorry to laugh. It's because Cody's had dreams like that. 


[00:19:00] Ben: Yeah, it's weird the commonalities that you find when you stop being ashamed of these stories and actually start talking to people about it. My sister Jessie talked about how she was going to sleep one night, the door was open and there was a light on and so it was a bit illuminated and then there was a woman in the doorway. 


[00:19:17] And she looked up and she thought it was mom and this shadowy woman, just a completely dark silhouette walked toward her and she looked up and reached out and said, I love you mom. And the shadow bent over to kiss her head and then disappeared. There's a lot of dark, creepy, weird stuff that happened in that house. 


[00:19:34] There was actually an angel that showed up to my father, apparently. We don't think it was actually an angel. But it told him it was his time to die. 


[00:19:41] Gina: Oh, my. 


[00:19:43] Ben: And he said, I can't die. I got family here. There were so many dark, weird, twisted, creepy things that happened in that house. And it wasn't right. And that followed me, legitimately, until a few years ago. 


[00:19:58] I slept with the covers over my head until I was about 16 years old. I was terrified to sleep anywhere that was dark. It didn't matter if there were people in the room with me or not. The second everyone else was asleep, I was still awake because I was terrified I would see something. Eventually I was okay with that, as long as there was someone else in the room. 


[00:20:16] Still slept with the covers over my head. Eventually I could sleep without the covers over my head as long as there was someone else in the room. Then it was, I was okay as long as there was someone else in the house. And then eventually it was, okay, now I gotta live on my own. And that sucked. That was horrible. 


[00:20:31] And it felt like there was this thing following me everywhere. It kept me from sleeping. It kept I I didn't get more than maybe five, six hours of sleep any night. For most of my life. There were a handful of days where, if there was a day off, like over the summer Summer was great for me. I loved summers more than most anyone else because I could finally sleep. 


[00:20:50] Yeah, I could sleep in as late as I wanted. My thought, my parents thought it was funny how late I was sleeping. They didn't know what was going on. They know now and they feel really sad about it. But how could they possibly know? But eventually, through a period of fasting and prayer, I was finally able to get rid of that. 


[00:21:07] But it all culminated in a night just a couple years ago. It was a few months, I think maybe a half a year after I'd bought my house. But I was feeling horrible every night. It was like there was something. evil in my room, something that was evil and angry that hated me, and I couldn't sleep, and I couldn't close my eyes, I couldn't feel comfortable, and I went through a period of fasting and prayer with the church during the Daniel fast that we were doing, and suddenly it all culminated one night where I felt something just out of place. 


[00:21:35] Hovering over my bed. I didn't open my eyes. I was terrified to and it felt like it was just hovering inches from me like it was just about ready to open its mouth and say something horrible. And then suddenly it felt like there was a light that built up inside of me and just like it. It's weird because like, how do you describe it? 


[00:21:52] It's it felt like there was literally a light from God that built up inside of me and flashed and banished it and it was like, I had never felt peace like this being alone in a room ever. Yeah. I finally felt like I was actually alone in a room. And I've slept perfectly fine pretty much every night since then. 


[00:22:10] There's been one or two nights where it's felt wrong. But I think that's the Lord using that. Letting me know when something's wrong. But all of that is to say, I didn't ask for that. That didn't happen because I was searching for something. That's something that followed me for most of my life and that I had to deal with, and I had to deal with it through fasting and prayer. 


[00:22:29] You don't want to deal with this. I promise you that. If you go looking for this stuff just to satisfy your own curiosities, just to try to prove to yourself that God exists, I promise you there are better ways to do it than that. 


[00:22:43] Gina: It's the path to destruction. 


[00:22:44] Ben: It is. 


[00:22:45] Gina: Of your mental health, of your life, of your relationship with God, so many things. 


[00:22:50] Ben: And you're assuming that God is just gonna protect you from everything. He's not. He's not. If you didn't protect me, strictly speaking, from this when I was young, and he had his reasons for letting this happen, but if he didn't protect me from this, and I didn't ask for it, and I didn't do anything wrong, you, when you're looking for it, You're looking for trouble. 


[00:23:07] You're going to find it. I pray you don't find it. I pray you fail miserably because that's the best thing that could happen to you. 


[00:23:14] Gina: I really appreciate you sharing that. I know it's not easy, but it is going to help people. And I think that's part of God's plan is to build your testimony. And I hate that you had to live like that for so long, but. 


[00:23:26] I'm really glad that you can talk about it now and that you have freedom from it and that you have clear instructions that are biblically oriented that helped you get rid of it. 


[00:23:38] Ben: And it's made me not, since I have had success in fighting it back by the grace of God through fasting and prayer, now I have an understanding, a sympathy of other people who are struggling with it and I can help to an extent. 


[00:23:51] I can't provide. Explanations for everybody, but at the very least for the people who know what I've been through They don't they're not afraid to talk to me about this stuff for the stuff that you guys have been through You're not afraid to talk to me about it. You know, I'm not gonna look at you as crazy 


[00:24:07] Gina: But some people don't understand and that's good I don't want people to understand the types of things that I've seen I'm gonna share them tonight because I feel like I need to and part of My commitment to God this year is to use my voice and my testimony to help others and to grow their faith, but I'm telling you, it doesn't matter if you signed up for it or not. 


[00:24:30] Other people's influence over you has a big deal to how the demonic and how the spiritual world interacts with you. And God doesn't tell us not to do something because it's impossible. if consulting with the dead and alchemy and witchcraft wasn't possible, God wouldn't warn against it and he wouldn't have punishments outlined for it. 


[00:24:54] Cody: I think that's a good point to make and a lot of people skate over those verses in Deuteronomy's Deuteronomy, where God lists the different spiritual activities that we shouldn't involve ourselves in and just. brush it off, but God isn't going to tell you not to do something that you can't do. Like it, it's makes no sense to do that. 


[00:25:21] It's illogical. We serve a logical God. He's not going to tell you not to do something, have punishments for doing it, but it's not really anything. Establishing that and moving from that point, I think is good. 


[00:25:35] Gina: I was raised in a culturally Italian home, and I was adopted out of foster care as a baby, so I am not actually culturally Italian. 


[00:25:46] However, the environment that I was raised in was. So there was an element of kind of cultural pride at being Italian. And if you are Italian, then you understand. It's just, that's just, it's a unique breed. My grandparents immigrated from Italy and they were staunch Catholics. They weren't practicing Catholics, but they loved the fact that they were Catholics. 


[00:26:12] And that seems to be like a common thread in Italian American culture. And so growing up, I knew that my family identified as Catholic. We didn't actually go to the Catholic church very often. I was brought up Going at like Easter and Christmas and there were some seasons where my mom would take us on a regular basis But mostly we didn't go to church and I call myself a first generation Christian Because my family does not understand the personal relationship with Jesus Christ So just to give you some context my mom and my dad divorced when I was two My adoptive parents and my mom really started going down a dark path and I don't know at that point in my life where it started for her. 


[00:27:02] It could have been well before I was born. She went to college during the seventies when everything was free sex and love and experimentation and who knows what she learned back then, but she became very involved in occult activities from a very young age for me. Um, and. I didn't understand that it wasn't normal and it wasn't right until I got older. 


[00:27:28] I took on a caretaker role with my mom really young. I remember my parents divorcing and then being about six and my grandma dying. My mom's mom died. And I remember her Laying on the floor often in the middle of the night and hearing her like screaming and crying and coming to find her and she would be like crying and weeping and sad and she had every right to be sad and grieving, but she would say things that were really confusing to me. 


[00:27:59] And maybe I should just slip my wrists and I say all of this because and it sounds crazy, but it. At six years old, learning about what slitting your wrists is, what suicide is, it inflicted some things on me that I acted on at a very young age while living in a home that was heavily influenced by the occult. 


[00:28:22] Now that I am an adult, I look back and I think, I wonder if what she was doing was more like a blood sacrifice for me. Because I remember sitting in my room cutting myself in elementary school and being in like a trance and not even being able to stop. And feeling this oppression in my home, like hearing lies that were like, nobody loves you, nobody wants you, you don't belong here, your birth family didn't want you. 


[00:28:56] Growing up in that environment, a lot of it probably was my mom's own mental illness. But, as an adult, I've been able to look at the books that she owns, and study the people she's studied, and look up the conferences that she's gone to. And now that I know what she's really following, I know what she did to me as a child was satanic and demonic. 


[00:29:24] And, It is really weird because now that I know, I don't want to be connected with her at all. She stole from me for my whole life. And there were times when we went no contact while I was an adult where she would go to mediums and astrologers. And I remember one time she texted me and she was like, what time of day were you born at? 


[00:29:49] And this was during a season when we weren't speaking at all. And it just came out of nowhere after months of no contact. And I was like, okay, I know what you're doing, which was consulting astrologers and mediums, trying to get them to give her information on me, sort of weaponizing the situation. Cause she wanted to be in contact with me and I did not want to be in contact with her. 


[00:30:11] And she was looking for ways to gain information because I wasn't providing information. And so having, I withheld that information from her, but, and also the time of day and stuff, but I do know that people do consult, my mom consults with that, and puts my name on the ears of whoever she's talking to, whether they're demons or charlatans, who knows. 


[00:30:37] But I personally know I won't go near it with a 10 foot pole. So I know that was heavy, but it's just, that's how I was raised. That was normal. And I was like that until I became a mom myself. So the influence that she had me under had me in a fog and that was my experience with the demonic It's so much deeper than that. 


[00:31:02] There's so much more. There's been so many attacks on our family Cody is somebody who doesn't normally believe in demonic activity and he has had so many dreams and weird encounters that We just couldn't ignore it, and we've had to study it to protect ourselves. I don't know what you want to edit out, but I didn't know where else to start. 


[00:31:25] Cody: Why would I edit anything out? 


[00:31:27] Gina: Because it's deep and dark, and I've never shared that before. 


[00:31:31] Cody: Thank you for sharing, seriously. 


[00:31:32] Gina: Yeah. It, it's, you don't want to play with it. 


[00:31:36] Cody: No. It's hard because I knew my previous position, and if I didn't know you two, like, I'd say, oh, that's a hard situation, but not really believe you guys, and being on the other side of that, and it's not like my eyes being opened and 99. 


[00:31:54] 9%, like, if I didn't know you guys, I'd probably still feel that way, even going through what I've gone through, and most stuff I hear, I still don't. Hold any weight to so talking about this stuff is difficult for me because I know how I receive that stuff But yeah, like with your mom asking for your birth Minute like two days before that I had back to back oppressive dreams and I'm very confident in my consciousness 


[00:32:27] Gina: when you're awake, 


[00:32:28] Cody: when I'm awake and not awake. 


[00:32:29] And I had these dreams where there, there'd be different interactions. And then all of a sudden, like a demonic person would pop up in my dreams and then I would wake up, but I would still have this floating dark presence, like the faceless man almost. And. I know I was awake. I wasn't thinking I was awake. 


[00:32:52] I wasn't dreaming that I was awake. And I literally had to call out to Jesus before I could move because I was also sleep paralysis. And I've had sleep paralysis before in my life growing up. I was a very vivid dreamer. And It wasn't like this, like, it wasn't like calling out to Jesus, like the sleep paralysis that I had before was completely different and yeah, but again, I know how people like me take these types of situations, but 


[00:33:25] Gina: It's not, I'm not trying to sensationalize it. 


[00:33:27] In fact, I'm like humiliated by some of the stuff that I've lived through. There's so much, but I can't like the attacks that you and I have had since trying to escape it. Honestly, I feel like I've fled a war zone and we've had search parties looking for us and we've had to be very cautious what we've shared about the kids and who we've shared it to and where we're going and what we're doing and what we believe in. 


[00:33:58] Because. It gets weaponized by demonic forces and it gets confusing very fast. 


[00:34:04] Ben: And in truth, Cody, your approach is not a bad one. There are so many people who take their own personal negative emotions, their own personal evil and apply spirit to it. Just give it a spiritual tinge because it's easier than accepting the fact that you might be a bit messed up. 


[00:34:24] Cody: Yeah. Yeah. The devil made me do it mentality. 


[00:34:27] Ben: Yes. And the truth is that a lot of times, it really is just you. And you better hope it's just you, because that's an easy fix. Not easy, but simple. It's you, there's something in your life that's causing suffering. Find a way to address it. There are people in this world who are very good at helping other people suffering in that way. 


[00:34:50] Find what's causing the issue, and helping you to get rid of it. This is something that Dr. Jordan Peterson does all the time. And he's got so many stories about people who, if you saw them, you would think, Oh my goodness, this is a poor shell of a human being. They are struggling with horrendous personal demons. 


[00:35:06] And he helps them through very slow, incremental manageable steps to become better people, to become brave and to face the dark things in their life. And that's an important lesson here too. Not every single negative thing that happens to you is because of a demon, 


[00:35:19] Gina: right? 


[00:35:20] Ben: Not all of it's because of a spirit. 


[00:35:21] I would say even most things are probably you. And even if there is some kind of demon or spirit trying to whisper some evil into you, the fact of the matter is, most of the time, it's like what the Screwtape Letters approach is. It's just an idea. It's just a thought. And it's you that takes that seed of a thought and plants it and nurtures it and cultures it. 


[00:35:43] Cody: I agree and I honestly think C. S. Lewis's Screwtape Letters is a good fiction place to start for reading about the demonic if you want to get the interaction. If you try to read these biographies or Um, Gina and I are currently reading a deliverance book written by, um, 


[00:36:05] Gina: a Nigerian pastor, 


[00:36:06] Cody: a Nigerian pastor, highly recommended by some people that we know and, you know, reading it, it's, you know, it sounds great, but. 


[00:36:14] There's a lot of red flags, and there's not a lot of Bible in it. There, there's, and he, he puts a lot of Bible in it, but there's not Bible backing that up. You, you gotta be careful with what you consume on the oppression. 


[00:36:30] Gina: Yeah, people are so voracious for information. There are some podcasters that I follow. 


[00:36:36] On social media that live near us, and one of them used to be very into the occult and witchcraft, and she has started drawing pictures of demons, which, like, they look like Pokemon, they're well drawn, and amusing to look at, but as somebody who has Lived through demonic oppression like I can tell you I didn't have Goober Pokemon looking people creatures running around my home That's not that that we have realms unseen and scripture talks about that these things are not just like little things to be joked about and trifled with and If you're describing your demonic history for views and likes, like, you haven't left that lifestyle. 


[00:37:27] I'm sorry. 


[00:37:28] Ben: No, literally the only reason we're talking about our own experience in this is for instructional purposes. I hope we never have to bring this stuff up 


[00:37:36] Gina: again, 


[00:37:37] Ben: but it's important for us to talk about our own experiences here. One, because Cody's position is actually very valuable as more of a quasi outsider. 


[00:37:45] Where you've come into this stuff, and it's like the Catholic Church's position of bringing in atheists who don't believe in demonic possession, who are psychologists, to assess people who are possessed to see if they're possessed. Because if an atheist psychologist says you're possessed, you're probably possessed. 


[00:38:01] Gina: Mm, yes. 


[00:38:02] Ben: Makes a lot of sense. And so the outsider perspective is very valuable, but for Gina and me, Like, honestly, you had it much worse than I did. Mine was literally just one encounter when I was very young that just stuck with me. 


[00:38:14] Gina: Mine was constant. 


[00:38:15] Ben: Yeah. 


[00:38:16] Gina: For 25 years. 


[00:38:17] Ben: And it's one that's still not letting you go, whereas mine has. 


[00:38:21] Gina: It is very hard to disentangle yourself from somebody when you have been their sole source of food for your entire existence. And that is not just referring to the demonic, it's referring to my mother. She has a personality disorder and when you have mental health tied into the demonic, it can be very challenging to identify which is which. 


[00:38:43] And that's why we have issues in churches where it's, is it a spirit of fear or is it a spirit of anxiety or is it a demon? We don't know. 


[00:38:51] Cody: I want to specify though, she doesn't have clinical diagnosed mental disorder. She has a lot of Narcissistic personality traits, like textbook narcissist, and that's what you mean by mental disorder. 


[00:39:07] Gina: Yeah, she's so crafty that she's never been diagnosed. 


[00:39:11] Cody: Yeah. 


[00:39:12] Gina: And she's been able to talk doctors into taking her side and her word at face value my entire life. So, of course, she hasn't been diagnosed. Look at what she's tied up in. But. She uses the same psychological tactics, and that's something I learned through seeing a psychologist myself. 


[00:39:33] So it's not my assessment, it is my psychologist's assessment. And that's a whole other layer of the trauma of my upbringing. 


[00:39:42] Cody: I want to differentiate between that because the Bible does this as well. There's a difference between disease and demonic oppression possession. Like the Bible clearly lists sickness and disease in a completely different category as, uh, any kind of demonic encounter. 


[00:40:04] Demonic encounter, um, diseases, you can be epileptic and you can have certain other, um, 


[00:40:13] Gina: You can be mute and blind. Illnesses that's 


[00:40:15] Cody: not caused by demons, and the Bible identifies that. And then there's stuff caused by demons that can also present itself as an illness, but is demonic, according to the Bible. 


[00:40:33] Ben: And I do think, once again, there are two different camps here. There are people who try to ascribe spirit to literally everything. I remember there was one story that a pastor of my old Pentecostal church told me. where there was a man and a wife who were having an argument, and she was rebuking his spirit of disobedience and resistance in the name of Jesus. 


[00:40:53] Then he was rebuking her in the name of Jesus, and they were just going back and forth, rebuking each other in the name of Jesus. Both of them were just terrible people, and they needed to learn to be good. But yeah, they're, they're people who just take everything as spirit, and they just rebuke everything in the name of Jesus. 


[00:41:10] Every bad thing is a demon. They're always being oppressed. And they need deliverance. Hallelujah, Lord. On the other side, there are a lot of people who say, No, literally everything is not spirit. That's ridiculous. That's superstition. That's stupid. You're being illogical. That position is every bit as illogical as saying that literally everything is spirit. 


[00:41:33] Not everything is physical. Not everything is material. And not everything is spirit. 


[00:41:38] Gina: There are examples in scripture of spirits that are specified for a certain purpose or described as doing a certain thing. But that's not the same as what we're talking about here. 


[00:41:54] Ben: And if you go through life. I've known a surprising number of Christians who have taken the position of, well, there's no spirit at all, there's no possession, there's no oppression, it's just you. 


[00:42:04] You're just screwed up, you've got a mental illness, you need to take some lithium, you'll be fine. 


[00:42:08] Gina: Or there might be some secret sin that you're holding on to. People have said that to me about 


[00:42:18] Cody: It's funny because I find it, and maybe it's just the type of people that I interact with, but it tends to be Christians who deny the existence of God. any kind of demonic oppression rather than atheists or the modern culture now accepts spiritualism more than most church folk. 


[00:42:43] Gina: Spiritualism is all about, right now, what's popular is channeling, meditation, yoga, crystals, manifestation, energy exchange, like those are all things that are tied up in that spirituality. 


[00:42:58] It's like mystical and woo. And people are so attracted to it because it's like, it's self care and it builds you and it edifies you and it makes me stronger. And this crystal is going to help me make friends and people aren't going to hate me anymore. It's like. 


[00:43:16] Cody: Yeah, I want to read this quote in relation to Christians who fall down that line real quick, though. 


[00:43:33] In opposition to the explicit statements of the Bible, which cannot be rejected without rejecting the authority of scripture altogether, or adopting such principles of interpretation as to destroy the value as rule of faith. And that's from Charles Hodge, Systematic Theology. And I agree with that, like, you can't reject angels and demons without rejecting the authority of scripture. 


[00:44:03] Ben: Yes, it literally outlines multiple times Christ cast out demons. He cast out impure spirits. He healed the sick. There is spiritual stuff that we have to deal with as a church, and I do think a lot of this kind of general spiritualism has been a response to the church's general move to move away from the supernatural, oddly enough. 


[00:44:24] The modern culture, for a while, was everything is physical, everything is scientific, everything is observable and understandable. Thus, we have to interpret all of the Bible through that lens of materialism. And if you don't, you're stupid. And if you don't, you're ignorant. And if you don't, you're superstitious. 


[00:44:43] And so there was a really big push by a lot of very prominent spiritual leaders to try to filter, The Bible through the lens of science. Everything that happens in the Bible can be explained. Everything that happens in the Bible can be understood. Everything that happens in the Bible is physical. Jesus said that he was going to send his advocate. 


[00:45:03] He said he was going to send his spirit. Does the spirit literally only help us with physical things? Do all we have to lean on is this idea that the spirit shows up and then makes you feel better? Or does he do things that we are a little uncomfortable with? Can he do supernatural things? The church in many ways moved away from that, and then there was still this hunger for so many people throughout the world. 


[00:45:26] As this massive push of atheistic materialism came in, there were so many people who were hungry. They knew that there's this innate sense that we have that there has to be something more. And what we've seen now is the church has been edged out and this new age spiritualism has taken its place because people rightly assume there has to be more. 


[00:45:45] And the church hasn't been providing that food for them. They look for that food somewhere else. 


[00:45:50] Gina: And for people like me, who have a very intense spiritual past, it is overwhelming for pastors who have no knowledge or training because that knowledge and training doesn't exist. in the Western culture. So many pastors I've met with and tried to explain what has happened and what I'm trying to get away from and what I have gotten away from in a lot of ways. 


[00:46:16] And they're like, have you considered counseling? Cause they don't know what to say or do. And it's a, yeah, of course I've been to counseling. I did like decades of counseling. I've been in counseling since before I left my mother's home. So counseling isn't the answer. Jesus is the answer. God is the answer. 


[00:46:35] And I've figured it out myself with Cody because I haven't had a support system. If the church was equipped to deal with actual demons, We would live in a totally different world. 


[00:46:46] Ben: Yeah, and you'll note that the Solution that's being presented to you by the church is the physical material one and it's 


[00:46:54] Gina: secular. 


[00:46:54] Ben: Yes. It's the secular explanation It's okay. It has to be some kind of issue that you can resolve by therapy that you can resolve by talking things through It's not spirit. It's not Something that the power of the holy spirit needs to work in any more than he just helps you with your general life 


[00:47:12] Gina: And if you evaluate like just for a second because i've had a lot of people dismiss me because they think that it's like sensationalized or Just not true or like i'm perceiving it as being demonic, but it may not really be demonic Maybe I was just abused if the if you look at the fruits of god in my life and my children and my marriage deliverance You can't not see deliverance because I am fully transformed. 


[00:47:41] I am not the girl that I was. And there is evidence of the Holy Spirit in our lives. And if you got to know us, you would see that. But to the people who hear these types of stories and they're like, Oh, you're crazy. What are you talking about? It's not a fair assessment, especially when there's fruit from God. 


[00:48:03] It's scary to talk about, but when you see fruits from the Lord, when you see evidence of the Holy Spirit, when you know that person has changed and is in their word and they're not pursuing those things, but those things are pursuing them, there needs to be more than just, Hey, go to therapy or let's just not talk about it. 


[00:48:25] I want to be your friend and I like where you are right now, but don't tell me about back then. It, it's real. We have to acknowledge that. Thank you so much for taking the time to listen to our podcast today. If you liked what you heard, please feel free to subscribe and share and leave a positive review. 


[00:48:44] And if you would like to connect with us on social media, you can do so on Instagram and Facebook at the Logic of God. You can also send us an email at main dot the Logic of god@gmail.com. Thanks again for listening. We hope you have a great day.

What Are Demons? Part 1

[00:00:00] Cody: Hi, thank you for tuning in to the Logic of God podcast. I'm Cody. 


[00:00:16] Gina: I'm Gina. 


[00:00:17] Cody: And I'm Ben. If you're returning, thank you for coming back and if you are a new guest, welcome. 


[00:00:30] Ben: We have talked a little bit about demons as well as angels, but we haven't gone much in depth into the subject of demons. For a very good reason, honestly, because while it's one thing to talk about angels and God's messengers and their purpose, It's tough to talk about demons without also setting a few ground rules, and we may have to re emphasize these a few times So I do apologize for everyone listening if we repeat ourselves here, but it's important to To stress some points 


[00:00:59] Gina: definitely I made a list which I've already read, but I can read again if you want 


[00:01:04] Ben: Please do 


[00:01:05] Gina: Ephesians 5 11 says take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness But instead expose them Matthew 6 13 says and lead us not into temptation But deliver us from evil 2nd Corinthians 11 14 and 15 says and no wonder for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. 


[00:01:31] Their end will be what their actions deserve. Second Peter 2. 4 says, For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell, and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness, to be kept until the judgment. Leviticus 19. 31 Do not turn to mediums or necromancers, do not seek them out, and so make yourselves unclean by them. 


[00:01:53] I am the Lord your God. Deuteronomy 18, 9 through 12. When you come into the land that the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominable practices of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer or a charmer Or a medium, or a necromancer, or one who inquires of the dead. 


[00:02:22] For whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord. First John 4. 1 says, Do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see if they are from God. For many false prophets have gone out into the world. And Revelation 21 8 says, but as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death. 


[00:02:51] So if that doesn't make you not want to study demons, I don't know. 


[00:02:56] Ben: Inlaid throughout scripture is a very strong warning. If you mess with any of this, You are rejecting God. And if you reject God, in this particular way, you're rejecting him for eternity. Not that witchcraft or sorcery or anything like that is a sin that is unforgivable. 


[00:03:17] But the closer you get to this side of things, the more You push away from the material world and try to accept the spiritual, the harder and harder it is to turn back. And once you fully accept the world that demons occupy, you accept them, and they are evil. They have fully rejected God, and there is no redemption for them. 


[00:03:36] So, please be very careful if you're gonna look into the subject. Do it with a humble heart, in fear and trembling to the Lord. And remember, That this isn't fantasy. These aren't fake. They're not things that you can just point and laugh at. 


[00:03:53] Gina: Satan masquerades as an angel of light. People think, oh, it's light. 


[00:03:57] I'm not doing anything dark. I'm not worshiping the devil. I'm just seeking wisdom and higher knowledge and power. I want to see, you know, mystical things like just because it looks light doesn't mean that it is light and it doesn't make it any different than doing dark things according to scripture. 


[00:04:14] Ben: And if you are pursuing knowledge of either angels or demons because you would like to something spiritual, the reason you might be doing that is because you're not getting it from God. If God is not giving something to you as an experience, there is a reason for it. Don't try to get around Him by pursuing angels or by pursuing demons. 


[00:04:39] And by that I'm not talking about pursuing them directly, but trying to find people who are possessed. Trying to find people who are oppressed. Seeking that out. It will find you in one way or another if you are supposed to find it. It is better for God to lead you to it and you to be the right person in that circumstance. 


[00:04:57] And we're going to talk a little bit about some of this tonight not to entice you or make you feel like this is all 


[00:05:04] Gina: Fascinating. 


[00:05:04] Ben: Yeah, it's not fantastical. It's real and it's not something that's part of a murder mystery novel It's not something part of a J. R. Tolkien story. It's real stuff. 


[00:05:15] Gina: It's the stuff that will ruin your life Literally eat you alive. 


[00:05:19] Ben: It will. We all have had experiences with it in one way or another, which we will eventually get to. But to start with, we need to get away from personal experience and the subjective. And start with what the Bible tells us. Because if the Bible tells us something, it's for a very good reason. What exactly does the Bible teach us about demons? 


[00:05:37] Gina: Scripture has described demons in a couple of ways, and I want to start by saying I don't think that we all necessarily have the same, like, agreement on what demons are. I think Cody has a different view, and I think you and I are more aligned, Ben. So, I want to lead with that because Cody may say something totally different than what I'm about to say or might disagree, but I welcome that because I think scripture only says so much and we do have to come to our own conclusions about some things, but ultimately we know the warnings. 


[00:06:10] Scripture describes demons in a couple of ways. It calls them devils, demons, spirits, and also fallen angels. In the Hebrew word translated devils in Leviticus, 17. 7 and Deuteronomy 32. 17 refers to a hairy, shaggy goat beast, but sometimes the word devil doesn't mean the goat beast. So it's, it can be confusing when you're reading scripture to determine what kind of evil thing it's talking about. 


[00:06:40] Because, like, in Psalm 106, 37, it can just mean a malignant spirit or demon, and that's taking it back to the Hebrew words, which I'm not even going to attempt. 


[00:06:50] Ben: So that's a lot of different descriptors and words that can potentially mean the same thing. 


[00:06:56] Gina: Yeah. 


[00:06:56] Ben: What exactly is a demon? 


[00:06:58] Gina: I would say a demon is a fallen angel. 


[00:07:01] I don't think Cody agrees, though. 


[00:07:03] Cody: I do not. 


[00:07:04] Gina: Why? What do you believe? 


[00:07:06] Cody: Demons as far as possession. It doesn't add up to me because in scripture, what I see and how I see it is they're usually described as angels still, even if they're in the fallen state or evil spirits, so to speak, but demons is usually not referring to those same things. 


[00:07:26] And as far as possession goes, you don't see angels, good angels possessing other people, but then all of a sudden in the fallen state that they can possess. People, doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. 


[00:07:41] Gina: Do you have any thoughts? 


[00:07:43] Ben: As far as possession, that actually makes a lot of sense to me, mostly because it is the ultimate violation of God's will to enforce your will on that of a human. 


[00:07:54] And also it's something that can't be done just literally at any time for any reason. It seems to be that someone has to be willing and accept it. So in the same way that the Spirit of God can carry someone along to the point where they can write infallible scripture, in that same way, The spirit of evil can take over someone and completely destroy their life. 


[00:08:15] Gina: But the spirit of evil is not anywhere near as powerful as the spirit of God. 


[00:08:19] Cody: Correct. I'd see that more as oppression versus possession. I 


[00:08:24] Ben: don't see much of a distinction between the two, but we'll get to that. 


[00:08:28] Gina: Okay. 


[00:08:28] Ben: So, what would you consider then? The things possessing people to be 


[00:08:34] Cody: so in Jewish tradition and is some early church fathers. 


[00:08:39] It's believed to be The disembodied spirits of the Nephilim. I tend to lean that way I'm not gonna die in any one of these camps or for it, but Logically breaking it down for me. That makes sense Because you have, did we cover Nephilim already up to this point? 


[00:08:57] Ben: So we covered it when we were talking about angels, but it's best to just jump back in here and redefine in case someone is lost. 


[00:09:04] Cody: So Nephilim, Genesis 6, 4, the sons of God saw the sons of man, women, beautiful, came and made babies and their offspring was Nephilim. That's 


[00:09:16] Gina: a theory. 


[00:09:17] Cody: That's 


[00:09:18] Ben: in the Bible. So, yeah, the, this kind of goes back to the discussion that we were having before about the divine counsel, which hopefully Cody can go into more. 


[00:09:26] He mentioned it briefly, but I think it's worth going into the, the theory of the divine counsel. But essentially there is a phrase, sons of God, that is used in the Bible. In reference to seemingly angels because like we said in the angels episode The term angel just means messenger and is not a reference to a heavenly race of some kind We use it as that today and even in the New Testament It seems like that's what they are using it for as well. 


[00:09:53] But at the time of the Old Testament That's not the way they were referring to things Angel literally just meant messenger. And at times, it seems like Christ himself shows up as the messenger. Which is why you can have an instance where there are three angels that go before Abraham, but Abraham talks directly to God face to face. 


[00:10:11] And he talks about, okay, if you find ten righteous souls, will you spare the city of Sodom? Yes, if I find ten righteous souls, I will spare the city. That's one of the reasons why there's some confusion about what an angel is. In modern times, angel, it would be argued, is a son of God. As in, a direct creation, a spiritual creation of God that is not physical. 


[00:10:33] And they could look like different things, we're not entirely certain. There are a few different physical descriptors, which again, we went into in the angels episode. We won't go into now. As far as what the Nephilim are, there is the reference of the angels. A few different ones. We, I, we recently stumbled across another one in Job. 


[00:10:48] But the phrase, sons of God, seems to be used in Job. Depending on the translation of the Bible that you use, in Genesis, in Deuteronomy, and in Job. But there aren't that many references to the sons of God. And usually it's made in such a way with a kind of off handed kind of reference. So yeah, it's the sons of God. 


[00:11:09] They lived on the earth at the time. What are they on about? It seems like There was a kind of cultural understanding at the time these works were written and they already knew what, what was being talked about. In these instances, I'm with you, Cody, in that you can go to Jewish tradition and some external Jewish sources to try to figure out what it was their cultural understanding of these terms would be. 


[00:11:32] But It's still tough because it's not explicitly said in the Bible. I think, before we go anywhere here, it's enough to say that there is evil in this world, and whether it's all fallen angels, or it's fallen angels and the disembodied spirits of the Nephilim, it's all evil, don't mess with it, it all falls under the same umbrella of Just don't. 


[00:11:49] It's better to stay away. It's better to stay away, and through the power of Christ, you can fight it, and we'll get to that eventually, but sorry, going back to the Nephilim, yeah, and the sons of God, it all really is built around the translation of the words there in Genesis and Deuteronomy and Job to the sons of God, and the context that those phrases are put in Genesis and Deuteronomy and in Job. 


[00:12:14] It changes a lot of things. It's one of the reasons why, if you read different translations of the Bible, it's translated slightly differently. Sometimes it says, sons of Israel, or children of Israel, or something like that. And I've heard a lot of di I'm sure you've heard it too, Cody, and I don't know about you, Gina, but I've heard a lot of different interpretations, a lot of fights. 


[00:12:32] These specific mentions of the sons of God saying it's not angels, it's just the forefathers of Israel. I'm not a fan of that translation, but it could be right, but sorry, I jumped in there for a bit. We were talking about the Nephilim 


[00:12:48] Cody: and what the Nephilim were. Okay, so we covered what Nephilim are. So, it's Generally speaking, they're the offspring of the fallen angels. 


[00:12:58] That's pretty much in most church tradition, and current academics pretty much agrees with that. There's some that are in the forefathers, or the Sethian line, but I don't think that's a common interpretation of that. But So, you have the Nephilim and the offspring, and they're partly divine, so they have this characteristic introduced to them that makes them giants, so that's where you get the giants from that Israel later had to take out, and Goliath was part of that, and all of that, and with this divine, or angelic, portion 50%, there's something that doesn't necessarily decompose like the rest of humans do. 


[00:13:45] Gina: We're made in the image of God, but angels are not said to be made in the image of God. We're not the same spiritual beings. 


[00:13:53] Ben: And while So, that position of there being unclean spirits, that you could also call demons, that are essentially the souls of the Nephilim, there are also some wider implications there too. 


[00:14:08] For instance, where does the soul come from? Does God give us our souls? There is a biblical argument to be made that God is the one who creates the eternal soul. Would that mean that God made the eternal souls of the Nephilim, but automatically made them evil? 


[00:14:24] Cody: I think that would depend on how much involvement you think God has in making every souls. 


[00:14:29] Did he make humans with the ability to recreate what he originally created? So he's not as active as a role in the current soul making, so to speak. 


[00:14:43] Ben: It's tough. Unfortunately, we're getting into really dicey territory where we really don't have any answers. It's pure conjecture at this point. I think it's enough to say that Thank you for bringing it up, Cody, because it is something that is a part of Jewish tradition, and it's not as if there's zero reasoning behind it. 


[00:15:03] And I do think that in the New Testament, the Bible does make a distinction between Where it talks about demons, but also impure spirits. And there are a lot of people who've claimed that impure spirits in the New Testament literally is just another way of saying sickness. That it's not literally spirit. 


[00:15:22] Gina: So, it's hard because you run into that. You run into it in Jesus stories where he's healing people who are You know, possessed by something, but then they're actually just sick, or we can't really tell, it's ambiguous, and, you know, some church denominations take those stories and turn other people's mental and emotional and habitual, I don't know, issues into, you know, It can, it can be really confusing for like the new Christian or the average Christian who doesn't take their study very deep. 


[00:15:53] Ben: And there's also the question of the divine counsel, like I mentioned before, and Cody, you mentioned last time. Cody, could you explain that concept? 


[00:16:01] Cody: The divine counsel comes from Deuteronomy 32, is the origin from a lot of the people who are talking about it right now, and Yeah, so, it all comes, Deuteronomy is the main point, 32, the entire Tire chapter there, but focusing in on 32, eight, when the most high gave the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind, he fixed the borders of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God. 


[00:16:31] So the idea behind that is the different nations he divided up. We know that God took Israel as his portion, but. The rest of the nations of mankind that were divided up were given to the sons of God. And it is believed in this worldview that is the heavenly host or different angels that he commissioned to also lead these other nations. 


[00:16:57] Gina: I'm curious if you guys could pull up 1 Kings 22, 19. And just explain it. It's talking about the heavenly hosts, including all angels. I'm just curious if that includes fallen angels and does the Divine Counsel include fallen angels? 


[00:17:17] Cody: Basically, you have this courtroom setting of God's throne room. And it's depicted as being filled with other spiritual beings. 


[00:17:28] And it's, you have that courtroom setting with God during the decision to sway Ahab. You have that in Psalm 80, 89, that's on the outline, but yeah. Psalm 89, God has taken his place in the divine council. In the midst of the gods, he holds judgment. How long will you judge unjustly and show partiality to the wicked? 


[00:17:52] give justice to the weak and the fatherless. So you have mentioned a divine council there, but all through scripture, you have the divine council or like a courtroom setting. It's the same when, when Job, when Satan or the Satan appears, there's this courtroom setting. And you have that a lot in scripture. 


[00:18:16] Ben: Now, as far as the heavenly hosts here, This is actually the story I've been referencing a lot. This is in 1 Kings chapter 22. The story where the King of Israel and the King of Judah are going to be going to war. And the King of Judah is like, Is there not a prophet of the Lord that we can inquire of? 


[00:18:34] And the king of Israel is, there's one, but he never says anything good about me. Gee, I wonder why, dude. But, yeah, all of the king, all of the, um, prophets of Israel at the time were telling the king of Israel and king of Judah that they should go to war and they would succeed. They finally come to Micaiah, which is the actual true prophet of the Lord at the time, and they ask him. 


[00:18:58] And he says, you're going to lose at first. He doesn't. It's an interesting story. We should, it's worth actually going fully through here. So 1 Kings chapter 22, verses 13, and I'll just keep going until we get to the end of the story, starting at verse 13. And the messenger who went to summon Micaiah said to him, behold, the words of the prophet with one accord are favorable to the king. 


[00:19:23] Let your word be like the word of one of them and speak favorably. But Micaiah said, As the Lord lives, what the Lord says to me, that I will speak. And when he had come to the king, the king said to him, Micaiah, shall we go to Ramoth Gilead to battle, or shall we refrain? And he answered, Go and triumph. The Lord will give it into the hand of the king. 


[00:19:45] But the king said to him, How many times shall I make you swear that you speak the truth to me, nothing but the truth in the name of the Lord? And he said, I saw all Israel scattered on the mountains. And the king of Israel said to Jehoshaphat, Did I not tell you that he would not prophesy good concerning me, but evil? 


[00:20:11] And Micaiah said, Therefore, hear the word of the Lord. I saw the Lord sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing beside him on his right and on his left. And the Lord said, Who will entice Ahab, that he may also go up and fall at Ramoth Gilead? And one said one thing, and another said another. 


[00:20:30] Then a spirit came forward and stood before him, the Lord, saying, I will entice him. And the Lord said to him, By what means? And he said, I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of his prophets. And he said, you are to entice him and you shall succeed. Go and do so now. Therefore, behold, the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all of these, your prophets. 


[00:20:52] The Lord has declared disaster to you. Now in that particular scene in heaven, it's like Cody said, it's a bit like a courtroom. I would say in that particular instance, all of the heavenly hosts are all of the spirits, good and bad, all angels, good and bad, fallen and not fallen. The reason I say that is because one of them proposes putting a lying spirit in the mouths of all of the prophets, who I would say are false prophets. 


[00:21:17] They're not actual legitimate prophets of the Lord. And the reason that I say that is because earlier in this, King Jehoshaphat, the king of Judah asks, is there not an actual prophet of the Lord? Okay. If there were tons of prophets, what would be the point of asking that? There was only one legitimate prophet of Yahweh left. 


[00:21:34] The rest of them were false prophets. Hence, a lying spirit was sent to all of these false prophets and they prophesied falsely. What's always been interesting to me about this story, though, is that God still tells Ahab the truth. He still goes and he dies. 


[00:21:49] Gina: What I find very interesting is that this is evidence of even fallen angels still being under the command of God. 


[00:21:59] Not that God commands them to be evil. But that there is a purpose for God in having the authority over them, but also giving them the authority that he has given them, which is mysterious to us. 


[00:22:12] Ben: In a sense, but I don't see it too different from the authority he's given to us as humans. For instance, we're capable of doing unimaginably horrible things to one another, in many ways worse than what the demons can do to us from what we see in the Bible. 


[00:22:27] From what we see that they can possess us, but it doesn't seem like they can do it whenever they want. It It seems like in many instances they have to have some occasion to do it, some reason. And what's more, if you rebuke them in the name of the Lord, or if you fast and pray and rebuke them in the name of the Lord, it seems like they have to leave. 


[00:22:47] Now, there are some instances recorded in the Bible where there are people who are going around doing this who aren't necessarily Christian and being successful, but they come to one specific man who's possessed and they say, I rebuke in the name of the Lord Jesus, Lord Jesus Christ, who Paul teaches, I rebuke you come out. 


[00:23:05] And the demon replies, I know Christ and Paul, I know about, but who are you? And he beats them up and he sends them off naked and bleeding. Jesus says, specifically, that there are demons that can only be cast out through fasting and prayer. It seems like most of them you can just cast out by invoking the power of God. 


[00:23:26] Not through your own power, but through God's power, and they have to leave. So in many ways, while it seems like they're more terrifying and more horrible and more powerful than we are, in many ways they're infinitely more limited. Because the horrible things we can do, God, more often than not, it seems, lets us do them. 


[00:23:43] Because we have choice, we have free will, and granted it seems like demons do to an extent too, but because they're not bound to physical rules, they're bound to spiritual rules that are different from ours. So, God's authority is still exerted over evil, just like God's authority is still exerted over us. 


[00:24:02] This is why, at the end of all things, He is the sole authority that will judge us, and He will either cast us down into the abyss or bring us into His courts in heaven. Until that time, evil serves a purpose, and we've talked about this a few times. If you give someone free will, they have to choose something. 


[00:24:19] What choice do you really have if evil doesn't exist? You don't have a choice. As long as God wants us to be able to choose, we have to be able to choose evil, because evil is the absence of God. You choose to accept God or reject him. And it seems that choice has been extended both to us as humans and to the angels as to become devils, essentially, because that's the real distinction between them. 


[00:24:43] There's angels who accept their purpose, and demons who reject it and take themselves to be their own god. You're absolutely right, Gia. This story does indicate that no matter what, God's authority reigns supreme, and this parallels the story of Job, where the devil comes into God's presence, into his court, And they're talking about Job. 


[00:25:02] And the devil has to be given permission to mess with Job's life. He can't just do it. He's limited by spiritual law. So, no matter what, they still have limitations on what they can do. But it does seem like they still are capable of rebelling in some way. The full scope of all of this, what they can do, what their rebellion means, we don't fully know. 


[00:25:20] We do know that they rebel. 


[00:25:22] Gina: Any other thoughts? 


[00:25:24] Cody: I don't know if I want to comment on the Satan and Job or not yet. You want to hold on to that? Yeah, probably. Keep that bullet chambered? 


[00:25:32] Gina: We have that under 


[00:25:34] Ben: Yeah, Satan itself. 


[00:25:36] Gina: Yeah. Which is a whole topic unto itself. Yes, 


[00:25:39] Ben: yes it is. Or rather, yes he is. 


[00:25:41] Gina: You'll notice that every time I wrote his name it is lowercase. 


[00:25:45] Ben: Yes, I've done that as well. I've been intentional about doing that. 


[00:25:47] Gina: He's stinky. 


[00:25:49] Cody: He's stanky. But there is a difference between a proper noun and a title being capitalized. He 


[00:25:55] Ben: doesn't deserve it. Either 


[00:25:56] Gina: way, he's lowercase for me. So, in Deuteronomy 32, 17, it seems to me like the pagan deities are described as evil spirits, and I'm curious how you think that fits into the divine counsel. 


[00:26:12] Cody: That fits in a lot, the idea is a lot of these angels, just the common belief that Satan got prideful and fell, it's believed that a lot of these deities from other cultures are actually angels that were supposed to point to God, but took the worship on themselves and called for the sacrifice of children, or whatever it might be, and that would be Like another fall type event or how more angels fell than just, Oh, Satan is prideful. 


[00:26:45] I'm going to follow him because I'm prideful too. 


[00:26:50] Ben: Yeah. It's, uh, again, this is another one of those areas where there is a lot of debate in the church. Part of that debate comes from a translation in Revelation, where it talks about how a third of the stars in the sky were wiped out. And the devil basically took a third of heaven that rebelled against God, and then they were knocked to the earth. 


[00:27:13] And a lot of Christians take that, and they assume that happened. During the time of Genesis, but that's not the time period that that specific event in Revelation is taking place. Contextually, we know that's the case because immediately after that is when there is a woman who has the the 12 stars above her head and the Sun and the Moon that is representative of Israel and she is about to give birth. 


[00:27:40] And so there's a dragon that comes after her. Contextually, this rebellion in heaven happens as a result of the birth of Christ. So, the question is, why would a third of heaven be angry at Christ being born? And we touched on this last time. So, I don't know that there's any need to go too deep into this. 


[00:27:59] Just to reiterate the point, it seems like it does make a lot of sense that essentially God created the angels to be helpers on earth, basically, to watch over God's creation. And then, once there was the fall of man and after the flood, if you believe in all of that, which I do, then at that point God, Essentially distributed his angels over the entire earth so that his creation is watching his creation. 


[00:28:25] They're all fulfilling, you know, purposes that he made them for. But he separated Israel out, and that was his chosen nation. And honestly, that's another thing that had always confused me when I was younger. Why did God just choose Israel? Why didn't he choose the entire world and watch over the whole world? 


[00:28:42] And instead of just letting all of humanity fall apart and turn evil, it felt like he just abandoned the world for no reason and chose Israel. But if you look at it from the perspective of the Divine Council, assuming it's right, then what you get is the image of the, of God saying, to all of his creation, I will let you govern yourself. 


[00:29:03] And in the end, ultimately proving the need for God to step in and reign himself, rather than letting all of his creation govern itself. But, because he loves his creation and because he knew of the eventual need for his own sacrifice, he set aside this tiny section of the world and called it his. But he let the rest of the world reign itself. 


[00:29:25] And slowly, one by one, the angels that he set to watch over the rest of the world turned corrupt. For whatever reason, we're not given exact reasons in the Bible, and this may not even be the right translation anyway. But, I will admit, it definitely makes sense to me, and it does explain why the Egyptian gods seem to be able to do things on behalf of the priests of the Egyptian gods. 


[00:29:48] Now, where we get into some rocky territory, where some reasonable rebuttals to this would come from, The Israelites themselves make some golden calves. Were those demons? Presumably not. 


[00:30:03] Gina: I would say they were, I think the calves came from some, something, some idea outside of whatever it is that God wanted them to be doing. 


[00:30:11] Wouldn't it have come from another? 


[00:30:14] Ben: You could make the claim that it was, they were pulling from some other culture and those calves were a representation of some other deity. However, if you look at certain, If you look at the prophet Jeremiah and just do a word search for gods, every single reference that he makes to gods is the fact that the gods of the world don't exist, that they're just the creations of people. 


[00:30:37] But in those instances, he's specifically referring to idols, to handmade things. And he also does talk about the judgment of the gods of Egypt. Again, this is why we're in rocky territory. The Bible definitely does in both the Old and New Testament. Point to the use of idols and say why are you doing this? 


[00:30:54] These things don't exist. They are the work of your own hands. But at the same time, the Apostle Paul talks about how food sacrificed to idols is sacrificed to demons. It seems to me that you can interpret that one of a few different ways. Either you're attempting to sacrifice food to evil, and thus a representative of evil accepts it. 


[00:31:16] Or, you can interpret it as there is an idol that is a representative of this evil spirit, and so the evil spirit accepts it. Or, you can interpret it as some of these things are actually representative of real things. And some of them are literally just conjured from the fevered mind of humans. I think that's probably the explanation. 


[00:31:37] Some of these gods actually did exist, and were corrupted angels. And some of them were powerless. They were literally just concoctions of stone or gold, and they had no power. But people assumed that they did because they didn't know how any of this worked. 


[00:31:52] Cody: Yeah, or tradition. Mm 


[00:31:53] Ben: hmm. Any number of things. 


[00:31:55] Yep. 


[00:31:56] Gina: Agree. I think it's really, it can be really confusing. I'm not as willing to study, like, demonology or extra biblical information about demons. I tread a little more lightly, and I just blanket it with, I don't need to know. Mm hmm. But there is value in knowing these things because it does point to the need for God. 


[00:32:18] And the point of like free will and needing a savior and stuff. So it helps the story of the Bible from start to finish, make a little bit more sense to me. I don't need it to be true for me to have the relationship with Jesus that I have, but it definitely is. That's 


[00:32:37] Cody: what I say all the time, like I've read Enoch and like, it's, people are tinfoil hat crazy about Enoch. 


[00:32:46] Why is it removed from the Bible? And you got to explain to them that it was never part of the Bible to begin with. It was not, you know, what we have now was not literally written by Enoch, the great grandfather of Noah, I think, or just great grandfather, one of those. It was not. Pinned by him actually there's a lot of issues just right there with it. 


[00:33:09] Is it cool? Does it explain some things that are not? Contradictory to Bible if they're true. Sure, but it's not worth dying for it's not worth going crazy on 


[00:33:22] Gina: But the way that we consume entertainment Excitement, and we talked about it a little bit in one of our recent Catching Foxes podcast episodes, but there's this psychological term that's called hedonic adaptation. 


[00:33:39] And basically it's like you start with a threshold. It's like your baseline emotionally. And then whatever stimulus comes at you every single time will raise your threshold. It escalates. And with study of the demonic or study of extra biblical information, Our brains are so wired to respond, to need more, like to need more stimulus, to need more, like, enjoyment, and more intrigue, and curiosity, and so it becomes obsessive a little bit, and like unhealthy, and It's really important to remember that whatever you're consuming outside of the Bible, you can't necessarily trust. 


[00:34:17] Cody: No, and you test it, just like you test anything else. Whether you believe it or not, it should be filtered through the Bible. If there's contradictions, you need to throw that part out right away. It's not worth keeping. 


[00:34:30] Gina: And reset your threshold for your response and your triggers because if you need more and more, You're like on a path of destruction. 


[00:34:39] You have to reset yourself every single time and say, no, this is what I need. And the baseline is like the five core assumptions. And if you're going outside of that and you say, I need more information or knowledge, like your pursuit becomes. Head knowledge instead of heart knowledge and it really defeats the purpose of your faith to begin with. 


[00:35:00] Cody: Yeah. Yeah, there's no Need for anything outside the bible. Is there value and stuff outside the bible? Yes, but if it becomes oh I need this and adding to The bible or to what you believe is canon I think that's very slippery slope territory. The purpose of getting us to heaven and building the kingdom of God can be found solely in the Bible. 


[00:35:27] Gina: That being said, it is fun to have these conversations. 


[00:35:30] Cody: It helps line up. It's one of those things, and if people didn't ask for this episode and it be so requested by multiple people, we probably wouldn't have been covering it to this extent. Because this isn't a topic I like to teach on or discuss openly because people either don't Take a lot of people off with what you say. 


[00:35:54] Gina: Or you scare them. 


[00:35:55] Cody: Or you scare them. And it's fantastical ideas that in theory sound great and make a lot of sense for other things, but it's not something I would teach from an authoritative position at all. 


[00:36:10] Ben: And we have good reason to be afraid. Not because demons are something to be afraid of, but the Apostle Paul teaches just about when he's talking about the law itself and its purpose. 


[00:36:23] He laments about the fact that he would not know evil if he didn't know the law. Not that he'd be incapable of evil, but once he knew and understood what evil was, he was then suddenly that much more capable. Of committing true evil in full understanding, he could suddenly violate the law completely. 


[00:36:44] Once you know more about both angels and demons because the two are connected, unfortunately, then suddenly you're faced with temptation. You would not have known had you just remain ignorant. Now, I think there is a bare minimum you need to know about both groups here, but I do think that it's okay for us to look at what it is that the Bible teaches. 


[00:37:09] And then say that's enough. And even about some of the ambiguity in the Bible. It's okay. I don't need it clarified. You can listen to the explanations on both sides of the arguments here and go, you know what? Whatever it is, I will find out in heaven. Some of these explanations are more satisfying to me than others, but overall I just won't know until I meet God face to face and he explains it. 


[00:37:32] Cody: Yeah, and it's one of those things that's not gonna eat you up that you don't know either. No. Like it would be cool to know. But, 


[00:37:38] Ben: and if you don't find the discussion edifying, then please don't. Don't feel bad about it. It's okay. 


[00:37:44] Gina: Yeah, like we're about to get into some more specific details and if you're uncomfortable knowing Names of creatures in the Bible. 


[00:37:52] Please don't listen. 


[00:37:53] Ben: Yeah It's just enough to know that evil exists and that God has empowered you to fight it in his name But as for myself with this subject, I was at one time very afraid of it, too But having had discussions with Gina and Cody about it over the past year I found a lot of comfort in The idea of the divine counsel, whether or not it's right, it really does make things feel more complete for me. 


[00:38:20] It makes it feel like the world that Christ came to save was one that was in desperate need of salvation. And if he didn't come, then it would have fallen into complete and total destruction. And I didn't get that feeling for a long time as a Christian. It just felt like a bunch of people being stupid. 


[00:38:38] I In some sense it does, but it felt very grounded, very material, for lack of a better word, like things in the past existed as they do now, just people being mean and doing mean things to one another. And suddenly Christ came in and now we have a savior who saves our eternal soul from our own meanness. 


[00:39:01] But with these additional details, it seems to gain a measure of color. The past isn't the same as what it is now. In some ways, we're not going to understand the world that we left behind when Christ came. And we shouldn't, because it's not a world that was good. It's a world that needed to be saved. 


[00:39:21] Gina: There are some things that align, that are like practices of today, that align with demonic activities of the past. And it's questionable to me. Is this satanic or demonic worship to abort babies or to choose your gender or whatever? There's some different things that, that are still happening now in a more covert or a more acceptable way. 


[00:39:46] What's phrased more acceptable, but it's still the same thing. And it does cause me to stop and think, are we really that different? But looking at it, Through the lens of Christ and knowing what he already has done, it does feel weaker. It does seem like the impact is less, although I think the desire for this mystical knowledge is increasing 


[00:40:09] Ben: and according to the Book of Revelation, eventually these people are going to get exactly what it is they're asking for. 


[00:40:15] Eventually, there's gonna be a sort of resurgence of the evil that was once rejected and conquered by Christ. But I think that's best saved for an analysis of revelation. 


[00:40:27] Gina: Thank you so much for taking the time to listen to our podcast today. If you liked what you heard, please feel free to subscribe and share and leave a positive review. 


[00:40:36] And if you would like to connect with us on social media, you can do so on Instagram and Facebook at the Logic of God. You can also send us an email at Maine dot the Logic of god@gmail.com. Thanks again for listening, we hope you have a great day.

What Are Angels?

[00:00:00] Cody: Hi, thank you for tuning in to the Logic of God podcast. I'm Cody. 


[00:00:16] Gina: I'm Gina. 


[00:00:17] Cody: And I'm Ben. If you're returning, thank you for coming back and if you are a new guest, welcome. 


[00:00:31] So today's episode, we're going to get spicy. Oh dear. 


[00:00:37] Gina: It is spicy, isn't it? 


[00:00:39] Cody: It's spicy for all the wrong reasons. 


[00:00:41] Gina: I know. 


[00:00:42] Ben: Yeah, when talking about angels and demons and their history as it pertains to us, both the church and the earth. There tends to be two different camps of people in this conversation that are the most vocal. 


[00:00:56] There's one, the people, and I will admit I was in this camp for a very long time, who look at the subject and just say, it's stupid to talk about it. Why are you talking about it? It's dumb. The Bible doesn't tell us much about this subject. So. What we do know is that there are angels in heaven, and then there were demons, and are demons, and they're evil. 


[00:01:17] So, do we really need to know anything more than that? I would say no. And there are too many whack jobs who are going into this and making it weird, so just don't bother with it. And then there's the whack job position of no, you don't understand man, there's a secret history of the entire world, and there's gods of the ancient past man, and they were all demons, and they were, like, they ruled the world man, and they conquer everything, and there's Satan's great secrets, and there's Gnostic wisdom and stuff man, you don't even know, and, I understand why there's a lot of hesitancy for people to not touch this subject, because the reality is there really isn't much in the Bible about angels and demons. 


[00:01:58] Gina: Au contraire. 


[00:02:02] Ben: Not much in comparison to actual written history on, say, Israel or Jesus. There are individual verses in the Bible that talk about them, but the truth is we don't know very much about them. However Despite that fact, there is enough there that gives us an image of both angels and demons and their purpose and how they relate to the world and, every bit as important, to us. 


[00:02:28] And so, we've all talked about this subject outside of the podcast quite a bit. And I think Cody was actually the first person to really start softening me on this subject. Because you started reading some of the extra biblical sources, you started reading Enoch and Jubilees, and not only did that soften me on reading some of the other sources outside the Bible, but the idea that while they're not scriptural, they have information in there that That could be true. 


[00:02:52] And at the very least could help fill in some of the questions that the Bible presents and helps build on what's there. But still admittedly is not scripture, so don't take it that way. But there are true things outside of the Bible that we learn just, you know, we believe that the earth goes around on its axis and goes around the sun. 


[00:03:09] That's not specifically in the Bible, but it's true. And there are things that are outside the Bible that are tradition that are referenced in the New Testament. I think the book of Enoch is specifically referenced by Jude. Yes. We trust in scripture to give us dogma and doctrine, and we trust in the Bible only when it pertains to spiritual things. 


[00:03:29] So tonight, addressing this subject, we're going to do our absolute best to let you know when we don't know something or when, at the very least to us, to our knowledge, something is not specifically in the Bible. But we're going to try to start from the very beginning, what's in the Bible about these two groups that have caused so much controversy in the church over the many generations that we've been here. 


[00:03:51] Angels and demons. What do we actually know about them based on the Bible? What should we learn about them? What should we just reject completely as modern fantasy? So coming from that, what are your guys opinions? What are your thoughts going into this subject? 


[00:04:07] Gina: We cannot base our faith on emotional experience and perception. 


[00:04:12] We have to rely on the Word of God to set boundaries, and that's what's going to prevent us to cross into the territory of idolatry or even like unholy curiosity when learning about these things. A really powerful example of something like this would be Eve not trusting God in the garden and consuming things that she was told not to consume. 


[00:04:33] Ben: So you think that one of the big dangers in this is that people will develop a fascination with something other than God and it could lead them into a dark place. 


[00:04:42] Gina: Yeah. Everybody is looking for a physical representation of God on earth. Every, and that's a generalization, but it's common. And then another common one is like power and control over your existence. 


[00:04:56] And God is really in control, but if you can feel in control, if Satan and demons can trick you into thinking that you have some element of control or closure, then they will. And that's something that's very appealing to people, and it's a big trap in studying these things. 


[00:05:12] Cody: I definitely agree with that, and your opening statement goes right along with the C. 


[00:05:18] S. Lewis quote from Screwtape Letters I put there. There are two equal and opposite errors into which our race can fall about the devils, that is, demons, spirits. One is to disbelieve in their existence, and the other is to believe and to feel an excessive and unhealthy interest in them. If we take the Bible at face value and what it tells us not to do, These things are real and it's power that we shouldn't play with or look into. 


[00:05:46] And there is this just glittery speckle in the eye of people that getting this knowledge or higher knowledge that would be appealing to most everybody if they had this access to not necessarily know the future, but have access to a lot more foundation of knowledge and how things work. 


[00:06:08] Gina: Do you have any thoughts? 


[00:06:09] Cody: I 


[00:06:10] Ben: think there are a lot of people who have this feeling about God where it's, they want to have something like God, but not God, because God is too scary. God is this all powerful, all knowing, thing that exists, and he's infinite, he's massive, he's way too much for us to handle. When God spoke directly to the Israelites, for as far as I'm aware, the only time he does it, to all of Israel, they beg Moses to be the one to intermediate, because it's just too much for them. 


[00:06:40] They're like, don't do that ever again, please. And it seems like That's a common affliction throughout humanity. Generally, it's great that we have a power that loves us and watches over us, but he's really scary. He's too much. He's the full truth. He is all things. 


[00:06:58] Gina: He's beyond what our human mind can understand. 


[00:07:01] Ben: Exactly. And angels and demons. seem like an intermediate step between us and Him. That's not what they are, and we'll get to that in a bit. They're just, they're things like us, but have a different purpose. And it's not actually clear that they are any more special than we are. If anything, it seems like the Bible indicates we are more special than they. 


[00:07:21] But we'll, again, we'll get to that. But, they seem to have more power than we do. It seems like they know more about what's going on and know more of the truth than we do. In many ways, we see great spiritual leaders being that kind of middleman, that almost intermediary that Christ should be for us. They will look to angels and demons and think, okay, great. 


[00:07:42] That's an intermediary beyond even that beyond great spiritual leaders. It's a safe thing because it's a finite creature, but it's something that's more powerful, more wise, more capable than me. It's like me. I can understand it. It's not so infinitely beyond me that it seems inaccessible, but it's more than me. 


[00:08:02] And so I can talk to it and get something out of it. And I can picture having a relationship with that thing. And admittedly, it is tough to picture having a relationship with God when He is infinite, when He is in all times and all places. 


[00:08:14] Gina: It is interesting to think about, in scripture, there are examples of angels fighting to protect people, but we're told post Jesus that we have the Holy Spirit who's interceding for us and Jesus interceding for us, but we can't see them. 


[00:08:33] At least in the Bible, you have these stories of these angels that did miraculous, great things for people. They fed people, they guarded people, they gave messages to people, they encouraged people, they destroyed people, and so at least it's tangible. It's something you can imagine and see with your human mind. 


[00:08:53] This idea of the Holy Spirit, this pink cloud that falls on you, it's like, what are you talking about? That's not, that's a feeling, that's not a tangible, literal thing. 


[00:09:04] Ben: And there's more responsibility on you when you approach God directly. It's that his eyes are on you, and it's almost like there's performance anxiety. 


[00:09:13] It's, I know I'm not perfect, but this perfect thing is looking directly at me. Or when you're approaching God through something else, or through someone else, it's almost like some of that burden is being shifted off of you, and onto the thing that you're going through. Whether that's a spiritual leader, which is why I think spiritual leaders are so revered among so many people, and even angels and demons. 


[00:09:33] More specifically, angels 


[00:09:34] Cody: in this instance. And that's one of the reasons just Side note that I think word study for the lay person is dangerous because angel is messenger. Oh, he's just there to relay my messages to God. Because I've heard that before. 


[00:09:49] Ben: Yeah, and it's definitely not what they are. But that actually does bring us to a very important first question. 


[00:09:55] What is an angel? And admittedly, this is not a subject I know an enormous amount about. It's something that fairly recently I've been thinking more about and reflecting more on what's in the Bible, but I haven't read a lot of extra biblical sources that could be right on this. And even then, I haven't focused much of my study on angels, and I know you guys have looked into it a lot more, at the very least, in the past week than I have. 


[00:10:18] So, What do you guys think? What exactly is an angel? 


[00:10:22] Gina: Just to delineate before we even answer that question. Cody has read Much more thoroughly in extra biblical texts than ben and I I have not read any extra biblical texts at all Pertaining to these subjects because i'm trying to keep blinders on and we'll get into that And a little bit of why I feel that way about this type of study, but all of the study that I've put into this outline is specifically from the Bible and from commentaries from very famous, reliable theologians. 


[00:10:56] Ben: And that's at the very least where our foundation for this discussion should be. And no matter what, if you're going to base something on this discussion as true, if you're going to discern it as true, it needs to be something from the Bible, not anywhere else. Other things can be true. And they can be grounded in ancient Jewish tradition and church tradition. 


[00:11:15] But if it's not in the Bible, don't take it as read. It's very important we stress that going forward. If it's not in the Bible, don't assume it's true. As far as it pertains to this subject. 


[00:11:25] Gina: And we will discuss some of the like less biblically founded ideals, but ultimately we will point back to scripture because that's the only thing we can rely on for facts. 


[00:11:37] Ben: Absolutely. 


[00:11:38] Gina: Okay, now that we've said that, angels, the word in Hebrew means messenger, and I don't know how to say this word, but if you want to try it, it's like Malachim. 


[00:11:48] Ben: Malachim. Malachim. Yeah, you gotta do that. It's probably Malachim. 


[00:11:53] Gina: Yeah. 


[00:11:54] Ben: I don't know. Like Elohim? I don't wanna. Malachim? 


[00:11:57] Cody: I don't wanna butcher the Hebrew language, even if it is translated. 


[00:12:02] We're gonna have a bunch of 


[00:12:02] Ben: very angry rabbis sending us strongly worded letters. 


[00:12:06] Cody: So I would love to hear from a rabbi, I'm trying to learn biblical Hebrew. So that would be fantastic. If there is any rabbis listening, great plug Cody. 


[00:12:18] Gina: So, so angel is a title, not a race. 


[00:12:21] Ben: It seems like there is some kind of heavenly race that would be considered angel quote unquote because at some point in the New Testament it does feel like it talks about angels as more of a group of things that exist in heaven like there's the section in Revelation that talks about how a third of the stars of heaven were Wiped out and sent to earth. 


[00:12:43] You could call those, like, heavenly spirits or something like that. We'll get into more of that in a bit. But is there some kind of heavenly race that we could call angel, quote unquote? That would be the common modern understanding of it. I 


[00:12:56] Gina: mean, the only thing that I could think of is just like the heavenly host, which is like a spiritual heavenly being, angelic being. 


[00:13:05] And there's different categories of angels, different titles of angels, but angel is just the overarching name of, of all of the heavenly host. 


[00:13:18] Ben: But the very least, that's what we use the term angel to refer to today. That's not necessarily the way that they did it back in the day. There's some reference that I could find in the Old Testament to the quote unquote sons of God. 


[00:13:33] And there's some debate as to what that is. Again, already we have to take a pause here and say that it's not certain what that is. The Bible means by sons of God, they're mentioned in both Deuteronomy 32, eight and Genesis six, four, and I'm sure they're mentioned other places, but they're not mentioned often. 


[00:13:51] Gina: The interesting thing about sons of God that Cody and I talked about earlier today is just like some interpretations have said that this must be the Israelites, but a lot of the verses that talk about the sons of God. Uh, from before that line even existed. 


[00:14:10] Cody: I mean, there's some arguments for that. Like they'll say Moses was writing it and he knew what was going on. 


[00:14:16] And he wrote all of Genesis so he would have known Jacob's lineage and could have written it down that way. But that would also, I think, open up the scripture to, infallibility questions. 


[00:14:31] Ben: Yeah, and oddly enough, this is something, Cody, that you and I had talked about, and you had mentioned it kind of offhand. 


[00:14:38] And it's weird, you really don't know what people are going to take away from any given conversation that you have, but you had mentioned this verse specifically. And I thought about it for a while, because it was not something that I had been taught. But it is something that's in more modern translations of the Bible. 


[00:14:54] This is Deuteronomy 32, chapter eight, when the most high gave to the nations their inheritance. When he divided mankind, he fixed the borders of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God. But the Lord's portion is his people. Jacob, his allotted inheritance. Who exactly are the sons of God mentioned here? 


[00:15:16] Usually it's translated to Sons of Israel. That's. According to the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Septuagint, it says Sons of Israel. But that's not what the original text seems to say. And there's a lot of argument, it seems. There's a big rabbit hole that you can go down here, specifically. The reason that there is so much argument here is because the implications of either interpretation here are pretty thunderous. 


[00:15:42] They're pretty big. If you interpret it as the Sons of God, like I said before, there are a couple places where it talks about the Sons of God. There's the chapter verse in Genesis that talks about how the Sons of God took wives amongst humans, essentially, human women. They found them to be attractive and then those were the Nephilim. 


[00:16:01] They were the heroes of old, of ancient times, of great renown. And it seems to me, Again, full stop, need to reinforce the fact that there is debate on this. 


[00:16:11] Gina: Yeah, we're playing devil's advocate a little bit. A 


[00:16:13] Ben: little bit. I'm not entirely sure how to take this because I'm not a biblical textual critic, but from what I've seen, there is enough here to say that from this interpretation, it's saying that the world, all of the nations of the world were split up with an angel to look over it. 


[00:16:33] And God kept for himself. The nation of Israel, as his to watch over. The implications for that are pretty staggering, and I don't know that we need to go into all the reasons why just yet, but It does paint a different picture of the events that transpired in world history. For instance, when you get to the time of Moses, and you find that there are priests who are capable of turning water into blood and casting down sticks and turning them into snakes, how exactly are they able to do that? 


[00:17:05] Are they just magicians who are doing sleight of hand? It's not really explored in that light because there are a lot of things that they're able to do. And eventually they're no longer able to do the miracles that they try to do. And they can do quite a few of them. I can't remember all of the things that they're able to do, but they are able to turn stabs into snakes. 


[00:17:24] They're able to turn water into blood. They're able to create gnats, I believe. And I think frogs? I don't, again, I don't remember everything. But they were able to do a lot of different miraculous things. And it, the Bible makes a point of stating, at some point they try to do it again. To match the signs that God is performing. 


[00:17:42] And they can't. And it's interesting, the number of plagues that are put on Egypt is ten. Usually, God's number on anything that he does is symbolic. And it's been theorized that the reason that God goes with the number 10 and the plagues, the type of plagues that he chooses is both judgment on Egypt, but also judgment on the gods of Egypt, that each individual plague corresponds to a god of Egypt or at the very least their domain, the thing that supposedly they have control over. 


[00:18:15] So if you look at this specific chapter verse in Deuteronomy. And it is saying that angels were assigned according to the nations of the earth. And each nation of the earth has an angel essentially ruling over it. And God chooses a nation of his own to call his. A very tiny nation out in the middle of nowhere, just for him. 


[00:18:35] But he lets the rest of the world be ruled by his creation, both angels and humans. Then we start to see a very different parallel history kind of form, where angels are going bad. And we, again, we see this in the book of Revelation, where a third of heaven is wiped out. It's revolting against God's rule and is struck to the earth. 


[00:18:57] For the longest time, I was told that was actually something that happened in the past. That it happened at the very beginning. And the devil rebels, and a third of heaven rebels with him. That's not actually anywhere in Genesis. And that's not anywhere in Revelation. Revelation is talking about events in the future. 


[00:19:12] Or at the very least, events that are happening in the present. And the context of that is that's, that happens in response to the birth of Christ. Why would a third of heaven revolt at the birth of Christ? Why would they be angry about that? There's also a chapter in the New Testament that talks about how the devil shows Jesus all of the nations of the earth, and he says all dominion and authority over these has been given to me. 


[00:19:38] Did God give that to him? That doesn't make a lot of sense, and honestly, that did bother me for a long time. It's like, what, is the devil just giving God back what's already his? That's stupid. But if it turns out that the devil had actually been winning over The rulers of all of these nations, the angels that are actually becoming gods, being worshipped as gods, and being corrupted, and over time surrendering their authority to him. 


[00:20:03] Then suddenly that offer becomes true temptation. It's the devil saying, Hey Jesus, this world is mine. I have conquered it. And all of your servants that at one time or another served you have become evil gods that now I control. I can give you the world. You don't have to sacrifice yourself for them. I will surrender this authority to you. 


[00:20:24] You just have to bow before me and you won't have to take the sins of the world on yourself. Suddenly that becomes true temptation. It's not him just blustering and saying, I'll give you back what you gave me. That's why I say that the interpretation of this verse in particular has some pretty big ramifications. 


[00:20:42] I don't know about you guys, I've been talking for a while, but that's At the very least, it's an interesting take. I'm not sure where I stand on it. I'm not married to it. And I think there is some danger in putting too much investment in one interpretation or the other. But honestly, I find it intriguing at the very least. 


[00:21:00] I don't know about you guys. 


[00:21:01] Cody: It makes some of the ancillary Bible questions make sense, not soteriological questions, but how we got to where we are makes a lot of sense in that, like, train of thought. And I agree, I'm not married to it, but it does answer some questions, or at least opens the door for stuff that is, you know, scripturally not there right in your face. 


[00:21:28] But yeah, there's a whole movement. If you look into the, it's classified now as the divine council worldview. It's very popularized by Michael Heiser and his very famous book right now called The Unseen Realm. But if you look back in church history, it's there. The Eastern Orthodox Church still teaches this viewpoint. 


[00:21:50] And up until the Protestant Reformation, um, was pretty much adapted by the early church fathers, as this was the interpretation and reading and understanding of why we got to where we are. And a lot of people, even in like Baptist communities and where I grew up in, a lot of this was You know, secondhand, like oral tradition almost on what we understood or knew about angels and the fall and all of that, all that jazz was an oral tradition and a lot of people's lives and a lot of angelology, but it's becoming more mainstream, but still is not a very commonly known interpretation or why it even, the implications, like you said, there's. 


[00:22:42] It, it changes your view on a few things. 


[00:22:44] Gina: When you look at some of the questions that people ask for, like from a non believer standpoint, like how could God create good and evil kind of thing, wiping out civilizations and wanting answers to questions from the Bible of stories of old in the Old Testament and like why God did what he did. 


[00:23:07] Viewpoint helps it make sense and helps it still feel acceptable because God created these angels for a specific purpose and they didn't adhere to that purpose and that's caused a lot of chaos and a lot of problems in Civilizations historically but also today and if you look at it As angels versus demons and good versus evil and black and white. 


[00:23:35] I think you're missing some of the richness of the history of it, which is, it's just fascinating, but it's also beautiful because it all points to. The need for a Savior is Jesus. 


[00:23:49] Cody: I would like to note that the like alternative interpretation doesn't really answer any of that specific texts at all. 


[00:23:58] There's a lot of issues at least in the English translation with it being the sons of Israel because Jacob's name is used later on down in that paragraph. The popular interpretation then is not angels came down. It is that, it's the Sethian line of the Demek genealogy that is finding the Cain side attractive. 


[00:24:22] And why does that make giants? No, it doesn't satisfy a lot of the questions that you have. And you have to do a lot of textural gymnastics to explain your way of how that would be the Sethian line, or why is he called Israel in one point and Jacob in the other. And Yeah, 


[00:24:42] Ben: I think there's a big temptation for a lot of people to try to make the world as mundane and material as possible Because in truth the world that we observe today Functions much that way we don't see at the very least in modern America We don't see an immense spiritual presence here at the very least outside of Christ in the Holy Spirit and debatably even then not much of that but in individual communities throughout the u. 


[00:25:09] s You do find a lot of people who are very in tune with the Holy Spirit who love the Lord very much and Miraculous things happen all the time and it's only really coming from God from the Almighty directly from the Holy Spirit not from angels not Through an intermediate step or something like that and on the other side of it. 


[00:25:31] We do see evil. There is absolutely tons of horrendous evil that happens today and There are times where evil is done and you feel like there is something very wrong There's a sort of vile corruption there, but at the same time. It's not like It's not like there are miraculous things happening at the same time that are counterbalancing the sight of God. 


[00:25:54] It feels like God really has conquered the world. He took the world back, if this is true, if this interpretation is true. When Christ died and was resurrected, aside from atoning for all of our sins, for the sins of the world, and taking that on himself, He conquered sin and death. He conquered the world back. 


[00:26:13] He took it back. From his corrupted creation and he put it under his own dominion rule and authority 


[00:26:20] Cody: and to take it down more Logical standpoint. Yeah, everybody nowadays has a very poor view of ancient civilization and just thinking everybody back then is stupid and If the Egyptians can build the pyramids and it be more mathematically precise than most of our buildings in America today, I don't think they're that stupid. 


[00:26:46] Gina: We also don't have an explanation for how they were even built. 


[00:26:50] Cody: There's theories, but yeah, it's It has taken us a long time to even have theories of how it was built. And 


[00:26:57] Ben: a lot of the theories that people will present, like there are probably people listening to this and say, Oh yeah, they just used logs and they put the stones on the logs and pulled them with enough people and enough logs you can pull anything along. 


[00:27:07] They tried to do something similar to that to reconstruct Stonehenge. Just as a modern exercise. They couldn't do it. There's a lot we don't know. There's a lot we don't understand. Stonehenge is literally just a handful of rocks stuck up on their sides, and then some rocks put on top of the other rocks. 


[00:27:23] We have no clue how they did it. It doesn't make sense to us. The pyramids, in even greater wonder, we have no clue how they did it. I do think that there are a lot of people who Get a bit too obsessed with this, like the C. S. Lewis quote that you, you made earlier, Cody. Oh, yeah. They get so obsessed with this, that they say, look, every single thing, that's demons, or that's angels, or that's No, that's angels, or demons built the pyramids. 


[00:27:45] That's a common Yeah, who knows? I don't think so. It could just be that they were real they're a lot smarter than we give them credit for. 


[00:27:52] Gina: If we want to be historically accurate, we know that Egyptians had slaves, like we know that. So why would we doubt that? 


[00:28:00] Cody: But we think they're stupid, but obviously they're, they knew more complex mathematics than we can comprehend that they knew today. 


[00:28:10] Like we don't know how they did it. Their math was very precise, even though they were living in, you know, pre technology era, but somehow still did this super precise. They did it, and with what they had at that time, with the carving granite with copper tools, too. They still don't know how they did it, because they didn't have a lot of other tooling back then. 


[00:28:33] To think that these people are worshipping things that are not doing anything for them, I think is silly as well. 


[00:28:40] Ben: And the Bible makes it clear at the very least that's not. What happened? Correct. Yeah, from what we're told in the book of Exodus, it's very clear that what they worshipped responded to them. 


[00:28:51] And when you look at even what was written about Nebuchadnezzar and his empire, like he had his wise men, his astrologers, his magicians, and supposedly they could do things, like they had power. That's why he appealed to them. But they had limits despite the power that they have. Now, again, we're not told specifically what they could do. 


[00:29:11] It's just implied that they had a lot of authority. They were spoken to directly by the king. So again, there's a lot that we don't know here and we need to make that clear. As many times as we need to say it, not even about, 


[00:29:24] Gina: it's not a matter of study. It's a matter of the fact that the information just doesn't exist. 


[00:29:28] Cody: Yes. My point in that was to connect it, like, where the logic of God. This is a logical path that we're taking of believing in the supernatural. It is not far fetched. Like, most of the people who, Don't believe in the supernatural or more of the analytical type And very reserved like I was in that boat for a very long time me too. 


[00:29:54] Um, 


[00:29:55] Gina: and then you met me 


[00:29:58] Cody: But this is to step into it is logical if you just look at history and data and the bible 


[00:30:06] Ben: I think there are a lot of people who hear the word logic and they think that it corresponds to materialism If something is logical, it must be material. That's not what logic is. Logic is consistent application of first principles. 


[00:30:22] Your first principles, no matter what, are assumptions. At some point, you hit ideological bedrock. There's something that you can't prove. You have to assume it's true. When we're discussing things like angels and demons and heaven and earth, we are assuming that spirit exists. Spirit of some kind. Thing that, something that is supernatural beyond the flesh. 


[00:30:45] If we assume that God exists, and that is one of our core assumptions here, God is not physical. God is not material. He is beyond the flesh. He's beyond the physical. He's beyond the material. We already agreed to that. And we also assume that the Bible exists, the Bible is scripture, and God speaks to us through scripture. 


[00:31:02] We can trust it. That is one of our assumptions. If the Bible talks to us about the existence of supernatural beings aside from God, it stands to reason that somehow we have to incorporate it into our understanding. I know, there are a lot of Christians who listen to this stuff and they take the quasi sadducee approach. 


[00:31:23] Where it's like God exists and sure there are like angels and demons or whatever, but we don't care about them. They don't matter. They don't do anything. Why do you think God made them? Why do you think God made angels in the first place? What do you think God made Gabriel? Why does the book of Daniel talk about how Gabriel was delayed because there was fighting? 


[00:31:43] What was he fighting? Why did the Archangel Michael need to be called out? 


[00:31:47] Cody: Yep. Satan and Michael were fighting over the body of Moses and Jude. Yeah. There's a lot of references to 


[00:31:56] Ben: And, granted, again, we're not told much about it, but we're told enough to be certain that they exist. If we trust, if we assume the Bible is correct, then we have to look at this and try to make sense of it. 


[00:32:08] Gina: The Bible says to be on your guard and to test everything. There's a lot of instruction in scripture for handling the demonic and also the angelic. And if we don't take that information in, then how could we possibly guard ourselves? This isn't the obsessive consumption of information, this is just the study of Bible that allows us to be prepared to have the armor of God, to have the knowledge that we need that's biblical in order to fight off or welcome, depending on what's happening. 


[00:32:42] Ben: So we've touched on this, but what exactly were their roles? Like if not to watch over the earth, if they weren't assigned to essentially be protectors, to be guardians, and their role over time was corrupted. What exactly did they do? Does the Bible tell us? 


[00:32:57] Gina: Yeah. So I, I wrote this, so I'll just go from that. 


[00:33:00] Yeah, 


[00:33:00] Ben: please. 


[00:33:01] Gina: The purpose of angels according to scripture, I've pulled a lot of scripture to describe the jobs that angels have had according to the Bible. I know that there are extra biblical texts that talk a lot more about this. I'm only using scripture. We have angels that were in charge of enacting God's will. 


[00:33:18] That can be found in First King 22, 19 through 23. There's messenger angels. We know that Gabriel was a messenger angel. He gave messages about John the Baptist's birth as well as Jesus birth. There was a messenger angel that spoke to Daniel and answered his prayers. And there were other unnamed angels that delivered messages in scripture. 


[00:33:41] There are warrior and protective angels, like Psalm 9111, Matthew 2653, Matthew 1810. And Matthew 1810 is important just to note that one talks about angels being protectors of children. Then there are angels that were destroyers. I noted that the angel of death is not in the Bible. That's not a biblical angel, but there were biblical angels that came to destroy those that were under God's judgment. 


[00:34:10] And there's examples of that in the Passover, as well as Sodom and Gomorrah, as well as in second Samuel 24. Those are all stories that talk about angels being sent for the purpose of destruction. 


[00:34:26] Ben: Yeah, the one in 2 Samuel was very interesting because I believe that's the story where David had a military census taken of his land, presumably because he was planning on invading someone else's land. 


[00:34:38] And after that was done, he realized it was such a terrible decision. And then one of the prophets came to him and said, okay, so pick your poison. Either your enemies can invade and you'll be on the run from them. There'll be a plague sent by the Lord to strike you down and you'll be at his mercy or It was one other one, I think famine for three years, something like that. 


[00:34:59] There were three different choices that he had as far as punishment. And David said, send the plague from the Lord. And then an angel, a literal angel, like a massive 


[00:35:09] Gina: Raised his hand. 


[00:35:10] Ben: Yeah. Enormous Angel appears, raises his hand, and then it's just a plague everywhere and destruction everywhere, and David literally sees it. 


[00:35:18] It's not symbolic. It's literally there, and he sees it, and he breaks down and he's weeping. He's like, what have I done? Yeah, it's, they have purposes, absolutely. They, they do a lot of different things throughout the Bible. It is weird to think, why is it that God would work through angels rather than doing things directly? 


[00:35:37] Cody: Why would God create? He wants to share in his role. If you look at the Eden story, it is, we're placed on the earth and then we're told to have dominion over it. And this isn't like dominion, you subdue it and make it your slave. This is, you're going to make it better. They're cultivating 


[00:35:57] Gina: it. 


[00:35:57] Cody: Yeah. There's a good. 


[00:35:59] It's called The Drama of Scripture by Bartholomew and Goheen, and I can't, I didn't pull the quote directly for this, but, um. It's got a good quote about the purpose of humans and in the beginning, and he goes in talking about a, like a famous painter. If you're like apprenticing under Michelangelo or something, and he's commissioned to do this painting and all of a sudden he can't do it anymore, or he wants to teach you. 


[00:36:30] He, he gives you the paintbrush and now you're supposed to do it. Are you supposed to do it to the same glory that Michelangelo did? That's what he's getting paid to do. He's getting commissioned to do this. So you're supposed to take what Michelangelo did and do it. do just as good or better. And I think that's the same example that we have in Eden. 


[00:36:53] We were supposed to have dominion and subdue it and make Eden spread and do what God has already perfected and replicate that in the rest of the world. 


[00:37:04] Ben: It doesn't make much sense for God to create both angels and humans and then not have us do anything. It's very clear that God chooses to work through people and it would also make sense that since God made angels he would use them. 


[00:37:19] Yeah, it may seem odd at times that God chooses to work through angels, but it's no more odd than him working through humans. Honestly. Yep 


[00:37:26] Cody: I would agree 


[00:37:27] Gina: There is one more category And it is the angels just for worship of God. So those are also angels that exist There's choirs of angels. 


[00:37:37] Cody: Isn't that arrogant of God? 


[00:37:40] Gina: There's also armies of angels. 


[00:37:42] Ben: Yeah, there's the story of Elisha where he sees the entire army of heaven. Another good question, if they aren't fighting anybody, why is there an army? 


[00:37:52] Cody: If God could just snap his fingers and it happened, why is there an army? 


[00:37:58] Ben: Same reason he chooses to work through people and angels generally. 


[00:38:01] Absolutely. Yeah, it's made abundantly clear time after time that there's a whole world of things going on that we don't see and we don't, you know, And Cody actually mentioned this in a conversation before the podcast recording started. But you said that there's a lot more to Christ's sacrifice than we'll ever really understand. 


[00:38:21] And I think that's very true. Even what the Bible tells us, we don't fully wrap our heads around. But there's clearly further implications for Christ's sacrifice that when he retrieved the keys of death in Hades, we have no idea what that looked like. We have no idea what the reaction. Yes, we 


[00:38:36] Gina: do. Just watch Supernatural. 


[00:38:39] Ben: Oh, yeah, obviously. I get all of my theology from Supernatural. 


[00:38:43] Cody: Oh, those Winchester 


[00:38:44] Ben: boys. Oh, those boys are up to their old shenanigans again. Sam and Dean. 


[00:38:51] Gina: He's half demon. 


[00:38:52] Ben: Yeah, and the other guy's the son of Cain or something, because the Mark of Cain and First Blade, which is made out of a jawbone. 


[00:38:59] Cody: Boy, 


[00:39:00] Ben: they went off the rails in the later seasons. 


[00:39:02] Cody: Fun fact, I did get most of my high school career, I think, I was driving that same car that they had. 


[00:39:08] Ben: Ah, it's a good, it's a good car. 


[00:39:10] Cody: Yeah, 67. 


[00:39:11] Ben: My brother Jack loved that car. He was dreaming of getting that car. He also loved Supernatural, so that's the only reason I saw any of it. But we really don't know what it looked like in heaven and what it looked like in hell when Christ made a sacrifice. 


[00:39:24] We don't know the reaction of angels and demons when that happened. We don't know the reaction of the devil. We don't know the furthest reaching consequences of what happened. We know how it pertains to us and our salvation, obviously. But I think when we finally come face to face with God, we're going to find out that so much more has happened in the history of the world than we understand. 


[00:39:44] Gina: So what do we know about how angels looked and sounded like? 


[00:39:48] Cody: The one that comes to, a few things that come to mind, most people are usually trembling in fear when angels come down, but also they can look human as in the story of Sodom and Gomorrah and the rescuing of Lot. And there's also a couple other scriptures that go into looking like human. 


[00:40:09] Gina: Like, the one that stands out to me would be Hebrews 13, 2. Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for thereby some have entertained angels unawares. So they could look completely not special at all. 


[00:40:23] Ben: But the question is, do they look that way? 


[00:40:27] Gina: Always. 


[00:40:27] Ben: All the time. Is there a true form, quote unquote, of an angel? 


[00:40:31] Gina: We have a true form. So, maybe they do, but we don't know. 


[00:40:35] Cody: Do you think it's the humanoid with big eagle wings? No. Modern version of angels? The common depiction of angels? 


[00:40:45] Ben: There's the depictions that we get in Revelation, and it's humanoid. Skin like brass, and there are wings, and In some sense, it's not completely far off. 


[00:40:57] It's not pulled out of nowhere. It's not as if that depiction of a beautiful human with wings came out of nowhere. It did come from somewhere. But it's not a like for like representation. It's eyes like fire, a voice like thunder, skin like bronze, and I believe they also have wings on their feet. 


[00:41:14] Gina: It depends. 


[00:41:15] Ben: Yeah. 


[00:41:16] Cody: Yeah, because there's ones that wings are all over. There's 


[00:41:19] Ben: ones 


[00:41:19] Cody: that have six 


[00:41:19] Ben: wings. And it's tough because there's the stuff in Ezekiel about the wheel and the wheel with eyes. Is that an angel? 


[00:41:27] Gina: So when it comes to angels, there are some like sects in Christianity that kind of try to outline a hierarchy of angels. 


[00:41:39] I don't personally believe that is a logical approach to learning about angels. It adds layers that are not in the Bible at all. And so I'm going to start by saying, I don't believe in the hierarchy of angels. There probably is because we have archangels and stuff like that. But I don't believe in the man made hierarchy of angels. 


[00:42:00] So starting there and just titling the different angel names that are in the Bible, not names, but maybe 


[00:42:08] Ben: Offices, let's say. 


[00:42:09] Gina: Yeah. 


[00:42:10] Ben: Categories. 


[00:42:11] Gina: Yeah, yeah, categories. But there's the ophinum, which I'm probably saying wrong. It's probably ophinim, but it means wheels. And it's literally, that's what it means. And it's found in the Bible and it's, they're not specifically called angels, but they're like a godly angelic being. 


[00:42:30] And in Ezekiel, um, 10, 12, it says their entire bodies, including their backs, hands, and wings were full of eyes and all are all around as were their four wheels. And it talks about the throne of God being set on these wheels and then pushed by four angels and the wheels. are inside of wheels at cross angles so that the throne can move in any direction without having to turn. 


[00:42:57] And that is in Ezekiel 10, 9 through 13. And that was my paraphrasing, not me reading the Bible. And then this could also be a poetic or artistic description rather than a literal one, and I just add that because God is not confined to a throne. His reign is all encompassing and all knowing and all powerful, so it could have been like a vision intended for specific contextual purposes and not necessarily the angel in its true form or whatever this angelic creature is. 


[00:43:28] So that's the first one. Any thoughts? 


[00:43:30] Ben: No, I think you got it. . Whenever I've read that part of Ezekiel, there's a lot that happens in Ezekiel. That's odd. I believe Ezekiel is also where there are the bones in the desert. Is that Isaiah or is that Ezekiel? I think that was Ezekiel. The dry bones, 


[00:43:46] Cody: the drop bones come back to life 


[00:43:48] Ben: there. 


[00:43:48] There's a lot of stuff in Ezekiel that's strange and it honestly, I should have done. A study of Ezekiel at some point because it really is a fascinating book. But there's just so much imagery in there and it's always a book that I just skim through because it's impenetrable to me. It's something It's overwhelming. 


[00:44:04] It is. And I've never fully understood what any of the imagery in that is supposed to do. What's the point of telling us this stuff? I know that it has a purpose and that's why I really should go back and look at it and You know, look at some of the textual analysis and see what people have been able to get from that. 


[00:44:22] Because it very clearly was meant to mean something to the people who Ezekiel was speaking to, but it never meant much to me. It was always confusing. Okay, so what's, dude, what are you talking about? There's a wheel, and there's a wheel inside that wheel, and a wheel inside that wheel, and there are 


[00:44:37] Gina: eyes. 


[00:44:37] Is, uh, 


[00:44:38] Ben: these literal eyes? Is it like fleshy human eyeballs? 


[00:44:41] Gina: Cody has some contextual information. 


[00:44:44] Cody: That's one of those. Books, right before I started seminary, I did the Bible in a year program and like got some like books I wanted to highlight and Ezekiel was one of those and I never made it there. I want to do a deeper dive into it. 


[00:44:58] But when I was doing the read through in a year, it was Like, I can't remember. I think it was at that free, awesome free used bookstore that I picked up, uh, like Jewish idioms and I have no idea how much weight they hold, but like the wheels is an idiom for the way that. Stars rotate. And eyes was another word for just shiny. 


[00:45:23] Gina: Or stars, I thought. 


[00:45:25] Cody: Okay, 


[00:45:26] Ben: so again, when you think 


[00:45:28] Gina: of it in those terms, 


[00:45:29] Ben: saying it like that, again, this is something that people have definitely put a lot more thought into than I have. This is literally just me thinking on the spot, but it could be, you know, Essentially saying that the heavens are literally God's throne. 


[00:45:41] Cody: Yeah. 


[00:45:42] Ben: That the wheels are the stars in motion, and then God's throne is above them. That makes sense. And when you 


[00:45:49] Gina: think about it in those terms, it's enormous. Yeah. It doesn't confine God to your little wheelie office chair. 


[00:45:55] Cody: But there is still some issues with that contextually, okay? Why is there four? Are they galaxies at that point? 


[00:46:02] But we know there's more than four galaxies. So there's Some weird things to just taking the, the idiom approach or whatever there is. I mean, 


[00:46:12] Ben: you could be saying it's four dimensions. Yeah, makes sense. But that's reading to, why is it four things that are identical referring to four dimensions? Because each dimension is different. 


[00:46:22] But yeah, again, there's probably somebody who's put a lot more thought into it, but reading it as that. It's definitely interesting, but that makes me more excited to go back and look through it, because obviously there's meaning to the, to this stuff. 


[00:46:37] Cody: Yeah, and the same with the, there's actually a lot in that book about the idioms of Ezekiel, like it goes in, you're going to cover, I think the, Is it the Seraphim or Cherubim next? 


[00:46:47] Cherubim is 


[00:46:48] Gina: next. 


[00:46:49] Cody: Yeah, so, after that. Or is this the one with four heads? 


[00:46:53] Gina: Yeah. 


[00:46:54] Cody: Yeah. We've all got four heads. Yeah, but an eagle was an idiom for something, and the 


[00:47:01] Gina: Lion. 


[00:47:02] Cody: Lion is an idiom for lion, I think, or eagle or lion is courage or something like that, and it gave different meaning to why. Ezekiel might use that. 


[00:47:11] And I'm just regurgitating information that I have not fact checked at all. So it's not something I'm going to take to the bank, but it makes you think about things differently too. 


[00:47:21] Ben: We talked about in our episode on hermeneutics, that you need to read the Bible in the context of when it was written and in the context of the people it was written for. 


[00:47:32] It does help immeasurably to understand the Jewish culture and Jewish tradition, because it's the lens through which they would have used to understand what Ezekiel was saying to them. At any rate, that covers the wheelchair. Even God's wheels are angels. 


[00:47:49] Gina: I love that. It's 


[00:47:50] Ben: so 


[00:47:51] Gina: funny. Okay, so cherubim. 


[00:47:54] Cherubim are mostly seen in Genesis guarding the garden as well as around the Ark of the Covenant. It is said that cherubim have carried the throne of God in Ezekiel 10 and in 2 Samuel 22 11, it says that God mounted the cherubim and flew, soared on the wings of the wind. And they look like an angel with four faces, a cherub, a human, a lion, and an eagle. 


[00:48:23] And there's some other descriptions as well. Some people believe that the Ophinum and the Cherubim are one and the same. I personally think it's two different things because in Ezekiel it talks about the wheels and then also the four faced creatures being two different things. 


[00:48:37] Ben: And the wheels could be symbolic. 


[00:48:39] Gina: Right. And supposedly, the devil was a cherubim before the fall. And that can be found in Ezekiel 28, 12 through 18. 


[00:48:48] Ben: Now wasn't that referring to the king of Tyre though? 


[00:48:51] Gina: I'd have to pull it up, I didn't add it. So 


[00:48:52] Ben: I'm pretty sure That chapter in Ezekiel is talking about the king of Tyre, however, there are a lot of parallels to the devil. 


[00:49:01] My understanding is that there's two different ways that's interpreted. One is that it's, strictly speaking, just talking about the king of Tyre. And it just happens to be that there's some language that parallels the devil. And there's another interpretation where Ezekiel is referring to both the devil and the king of Tyre. 


[00:49:19] Gina: I'm just pulling it up. You're right. He is referring to the king of Tyre. 


[00:49:25] Ben: But traditionally people do use this chapter in Ezekiel to talk about the devil, just because the parallels are definitely there. 


[00:49:35] Gina: Now, one thing that this, so Ezekiel 28, 13 talks about is, Every precious stone was thy covering. 


[00:49:43] Sardius, Topaz, Diamond, Beryl, Onyx, Jasper, Sapphire, Emerald, Carbuncle, and Gold. That adds another layer to the appearance of a cherub, if that is in fact what a cherub looks like. So they have four faces, but they're also covered in precious stones and gold. It's also interesting that these are the same stones that were used in the chest plate for 


[00:50:05] Cody: A lot. 


[00:50:05] Not exactly. Yeah. 


[00:50:07] Gina: It depends on which. That's true. No one really 


[00:50:09] Cody: knows the actual. 


[00:50:12] Ben: So it's important. Going into talking about the devil in reference to this chapter in Ezekiel, let's just read some of it starting from the beginning. Ezekiel chapter 28 verse 1. The word of the Lord came to me, son of man, say to the prince of Tyre. 


[00:50:31] Thus says the Lord, Because your heart is proud, and because you have said, I am a god, I sit in the seat of the gods, in the heart of the seas, yet you are but a man, and no god. Though you make your heart like the heart of a god, you are indeed wiser than Daniel, no secret is hidden from you. By your wisdom and your understanding, you have made wealth for yourself, and have gathered gold and silver into your treasuries. 


[00:50:54] By your great wisdom in your trade, you have increased your wealth, And your heart has become proud in your wealth, therefore, thus says the Lord, because you make your heart like the heart of a God. Therefore, behold, I will bring foreigners upon you, the most ruthless of nations, and they shall draw the swords against the beauty of your wisdom and to follow your splendor. 


[00:51:12] So far, it doesn't sound like he's talking about the devil, and there are a lot of points where it does sound like he could be talking about the devil and he could be still talking about the king of Tyre. That's why it's important. To be careful when reading through this specific chapter and saying that it's talking about the devil 


[00:51:31] Gina: or any 


[00:51:31] Ben: real description about angels generally. 


[00:51:34] Gina: So I pulled that from commentaries. That was just a fun factoid that is debated. It's not, none of this is really, it's so mysterious unless you've taken the time to study every word and make sure that it's accurate and then still not know the 100 percent other than your own personal conviction, you're never going to really know whether or not it's true and really it's irrelevant. 


[00:51:58] Satan is Satan. Yes. Whether he was a cherub or not. 


[00:52:02] Ben: We know that he was an angel. We don't know if he worked as a desk job or as a warrior or what, but we know that he was an angel. 


[00:52:09] Gina: Yeah. Any other thoughts on cherubim? Okay. So there's seraphim and they're only mentioned briefly in the Bible. So we don't have a lot of information about them either. 


[00:52:20] But Cody looked up for me, the word root of Seraphim, and it means fiery flying serpent. 


[00:52:29] Cody: Yeah, one of the other flip sides is I've heard Satan was a Seraphim because the original word being connected to serpent and the serpent in the Garden of Eden, and they all, Seraphim could also fly, but God strips. 


[00:52:46] Satan of his flying ability. So you're going to be on your belly, like the birds of the wilderness or the animals of the wilderness. I can't remember exactly. So I have heard that explanation. And again, this is not something that I as excribed to or put out there, but that is something else that's out there that seems logical, but 


[00:53:06] Ben: it would absolutely be fascinating if that's the case, because one of the weird parts The Fall of Man story in Genesis is a snake shows up and is talking to Eve. 


[00:53:18] One, snakes don't talk. Could snakes talk at the beginning? I don't know, maybe. 


[00:53:22] Cody: I've heard the argument about the donkey and 


[00:53:24] Ben: Balaam. Yeah, but that was an exception. It was made clear that was an exception. But as far as a snake showing up and talking to Eve, and then it says, now the serpent was the wisest of God's creation. 


[00:53:39] Gina: No, I'm laughing because could you imagine being like, naked in the garden eating a pomegranate and then suddenly some disabled angel like, wriggles up to you and is, you can eat that, I promise. 


[00:53:51] Ben: How about a nice apple? I promise nothing bad's gonna happen. Like 


[00:53:57] Gina: you're sitting there with your pet tiger and 


[00:54:00] Ben: And all is right with the world. 


[00:54:03] And then some dude just plummets from the sky. 


[00:54:07] Gina: He's like squirming. 


[00:54:09] Ben: Nah, I I gotcha, but if you take it as Seraphim, as, okay, so the Seraphim was the wisest of God's creation, and a Seraphim shows up, and is, hey, I know a lot about God, it's like, yeah, why did a snake know so much about God? Already we assume that the snake is the devil. 


[00:54:28] So at the very least he's disguised as a snake, but if it is true that Seraphim is what the devil was and then There is an actual parallel an actual design parallel between what Isaiah says and what is put in Genesis Then it isn't a literal snake. It's an angel and it's an angel that is corrupted and This is his act of rebellion against God and so God curses him It's you're just you're gonna be bound to the earth. 


[00:54:54] You can't leave I strip you of your wings, you will crawl in the dust of the earth, and what's more, one of this man's descendants is going to tread on your head and you are going to bite his heel. Suddenly it makes a lot more sense. 


[00:55:07] Gina: There's also, they're described as having six wings, two to cover their face, two to cover their feet, and two to fly with. 


[00:55:15] And some of the commentaries that I was reading have extrapolated that, like, it must be so that. Seraphim cannot see the face of God or let their feet touch the holy ground, which is totally not in the Bible, but that's something that a lot of people believe. I was surprised by how popular that thought was, but it just, you know, it's a weird kind of thing. 


[00:55:39] depiction if you try to imagine it in terms of a man, it's really weird, but we can't really like the angels are described in the bible as being made out of things that are not flesh, metal, and stone. So it's just a very interesting. 


[00:55:56] Ben: It's skin like brass. It's not that necessarily they're made out of it. 


[00:56:01] I think it's more that they were just shiny. They're luminescent. Their eyes are like fire. They can, they're, they're brilliant and otherworldly. 


[00:56:08] Gina: And the seraphims saying praises to God that like their voice created fire. So that was another thing in the Bible that I read, their voices created like burning, 


[00:56:19] Ben: and that would explain why the devil was called Lucifer Light bringer, if that's one of the things that they did. 


[00:56:24] Now, again, that's conjecture, 


[00:56:26] Gina: also the fiery pits of hell. I don't know. 


[00:56:28] Ben: Yeah, no, there's in, in some ways it makes a bit too much sense. Again, we're not strictly speaking told that. It's just, it's an interesting thought. It does make sense, but I'm not married to the idea. Cody literally just brought it up. 


[00:56:43] You have a nasty habit of making me really fascinated with the things you bring up. 


[00:56:48] Cody: Oh, it's just those things that are, okay, I like that. It makes sense and like, it's not, you test it with scripture. It's not like anti biblical, but it is extra biblical. You have to make a lot of connections outside of what text says, but they also don't disagree with anything in the text either that I've read. 


[00:57:10] Yeah. So. 


[00:57:11] Gina: Okay. The next one is archangels. An archangel may be a role rather than a type of angel. And only one of them is named in scripture, and it is Michael. And Cody was telling me that there's extra biblical references that talk about there being more than one. Yeah, I think You said Enoch 


[00:57:34] Cody: and Tobit. 


[00:57:34] Tobit mentions, I think, seven archangels. Enoch mentions, I think, four. But The Ark in Archangel is just like first or prince or chief. Like that's what it translates to. And like, you get that sense with Michael leading the army, so to speak. And in the Bible, you get that reference. Theoretical, plausible, not concrete though, that there is more than one. 


[00:58:03] Ben: Yeah, I could see it going either way. I mean, it does make sense that there would be more than one chief angel, if there are armies of God. And ultimately, God is the supreme leader, so there can be as many people under him as he wants. But at the same time, we seem to only have one archangel named, which is Michael. 


[00:58:20] I'm fine with just saying there's one. 


[00:58:23] Gina: Yep. That's easy. Okay. The last one is the most dramatic, I think, and it's fallen angels. 


[00:58:31] Ben: Yeah. Here we go. 


[00:58:32] Gina: But are they demons? 


[00:58:34] Ben: So what do you think, Gina? Are they demons? Yes. Why? 


[00:58:38] Gina: Because if you read in Revelation 12, seven talks about Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon and his angels fought back like there are other texts in scripture that talk about the devil having like workers and Revelation calls them what they are which is their angels. 


[00:58:59] They're just fallen angels There's still demons, and as we get into the subject of demons, we can break it down more, but Ultimately, the answer to me is, yes. Am I wrong? 


[00:59:12] Cody: I don't know. Like, this is another one I'm open to be wrong on. Yeah, here we go. Here we go. I probably lean to that side, but it does seem that they are a little bit different than angels and in their roles and what we see them capable of. 


[00:59:29] We don't hear any good angels possessing humans. We do see demons possessing humans, and if you look at some of the reasons, one of the things that I work with when thinking about the, the role of angels and demons, or angels, so you have angels, you have humans, you have God, the trinity of God, you can describe, I think Ben has described, Or can be described, I don't think you described it exactly this way, like matter, like Jesus is matter. 


[01:00:01] You have the will, which is God, and then you have the spirit, which is the Holy Spirit. And then you have angels. They have spirit and will, but they're not matter like humans are. You have animals who are more just matter and more will, I would say. not necessarily spirit. Then you would have plants as just matter, and then you have humans. 


[01:00:31] So out of everything that God has created thus far, nothing has been in the true image of God. Then you put humans in there and they encompass all three of these. So there is a spiritual aspect to humans. There's a matter aspect to humans. And then there is also the will that we fight with that seems to be separate than the spirit itself. 


[01:00:53] So, putting that into context with angels and demons, I don't see angels doing the same things that demons do. And again, I'm okay with being wrong, but there's a lot of Jewish tradition and that's where we get a lot of our teachings on demons, whether people admit it or not. And one of the common beliefs of these more ancient Jewish writings and teachings is that the Nephilim are When they die, the, because the angels have this will and spirit and then you have humans, there's not a great mixture there. 


[01:01:32] When they die, it becomes disembodied and that's what demons are. 


[01:01:36] Gina: You're saying that from the possibility, not from the absolute. 


[01:01:40] Cody: Yeah, definitely not absolute on that. That's all extra biblical, not in the Bible, but. I 


[01:01:47] Ben: think it's, I think it's important that we have this discussion because you and I actually talked about this a few months ago. 


[01:01:54] And at first I was very against that interpretation, like ardently against it. And to an extent I still am, but I think there's some merit to the discussion here. There are a lot of Christians who will go out of their way to. interpret out the mention of the Nephilim as angels or fallen angels having children with humans, because one, it sounds pagan. 


[01:02:18] It sounds like demigods. It sounds like the myths of ancient pagan cultures that we laugh at and roll our eyes at like really Zeus going around and getting a bunch of ladies pregnant and tricking people and having kids with bulls. And yeah, it all sounds ridiculous and weird and silly and stupid. And it's all superstition, but then we get to this tiny section of the Bible, this one throwaway line, and it's tough to reconcile, because it seems like it's saying that demons had children with humans, and they became the Nephilim. 


[01:02:52] The phraseology there seems to be a reference to something that's somewhat angelic in nature, and immediately after that it talks about the great heroes of old, which we don't see anymore today. And there are certainly figures like Goliath, and there have been attempts to say it's just, it's giants. 


[01:03:10] Giants came about there. It's okay. And 


[01:03:13] Gina: yet behemoths weren't dinosaurs, but 


[01:03:17] Ben: Yeah, no, I got you. There's a lot of attempts to try to translate out things that would be difficult for Christians to digest. No matter what, I do think And we need to face what's written there. It does seem like, and I could be wrong, I'm open to having my mind changed. 


[01:03:34] But it does seem like the Bible is saying that demons did specifically get women pregnant in the distant past. And the question is, what happens to those people when they die? Because it's a corrupt thing having a child with a human. A fully evil, terrible embodiment of evil that has fully rejected God. 


[01:03:56] Does God provide the animating force for that child? Does God provide the spirit for that child? That also begs the question, can demons create spirit? Can they create the animating force for their own children? Presuming that's what the translation is. There are a lot of difficulties in translating that specific verse that way. 


[01:04:16] Which is why I understand why so many people have done their best to make it No, it's not that demons had children with humans. Because it is difficult. There are so many difficult questions that we don't have answers to there. At the same time, and again, I'm open to having my mind changed, I don't know how this works. 


[01:04:36] We will address this later, folks, but there, there are impure spirits mentioned in the Bible, and they seem like they're different from demons. Again, we'll address this later, we'll go into more detail later. If they are different from demons, then it could, where did they come from? Did God just make a bunch of impure spirits from the beginning of the world? 


[01:04:55] I don't know. Did God just make a bunch of evil stuff? No, presumably not. So then where would impure spirits come from? Was it just, people just slapped the label spirits on everything because they were stupid and didn't know how medicine worked? I don't know. It's possible. That's one of the explanations people have given. 


[01:05:11] Another possible explanation is that there are fallen angels that are demons and then there are impure spirits which are the spirits of dead Nephilim. Again, it's, it feels weird to say it. I don't know. I don't know if that's the truth. It is a potential explanation. We'll go into it a bit more later. 


[01:05:26] Just putting a pin in, that's a potential explanation. What do you think, Cody? Is that about reasonable as the subject can be? 


[01:05:32] Cody: I do think that also opens the door for a lot of other tough issues for new Christians or people having issues with the genocide of Jared Canan, we know that 400 years needed to pass from Abraham before they were to their fullest extent of sin. 


[01:05:53] And then you have this depiction of there being giants in the land that it was Joshua and Caleb. Yeah, because they were, Caleb was excited to. Yeah. Use all guns. Yeah. But so you have this reference of giants and then you have the Goliath connection and okay, are these just super humans or because if you look at Goliath, he's more than just tall. 


[01:06:18] He's also ridiculously strong. I can't remember the weight of his sword alone or spear tip was ridiculously heavy for a normal spirit. 


[01:06:28] Ben: Yeah. Yeah. I think. It was like, I can't remember exactly. I think it was something like 17 pounds. And for reference, a sword is less than three usually. 


[01:06:37] Cody: Yeah. It's ridiculous to, to be wielding that type of thing. 


[01:06:42] That's superhuman strength as well. So he's also, he's really tall and he's also ridiculously strong. That doesn't sound anywhere in the realm of humanity to me. 


[01:06:53] Ben: And I believe it was either four brothers or five brothers that he had that were also the same size as him. Yeah. That's a fun fact. That's why David chose five smooth stones, which is, that's pretty awesome. 


[01:07:05] It's like, David chose 


[01:07:07] Gina: the I'm getting them all. 


[01:07:08] Ben: I picture like an action movie with David where there's like a guy who follows him, who's being all smug, and he sees him pick up five smooth stones for his sling and he's like, What, you think you'll miss? He's like, No. It's in case his brothers show up. 


[01:07:19] Cody: You should have pitched that to Angel Studios when they were doing Young David. 


[01:07:24] Ben: Oh, I would gladly write the script for that David movie. Man, that would make an amazing movie. 


[01:07:29] Cody: So there's different. Different doors that open or different explanations that open, because if God's reason for not sparing any of these cultures was to wipe out this abomination of DNA transmission, it makes it more bearable, I think, to the average person of, 


[01:07:50] Gina: especially if those people didn't have the same capability of eternity. 


[01:07:55] Cody: Yeah, and I don't want to diminish the other side, still, because Paul Kopin, he wrote the Is God a Moral Monster and Is God a Vindictive Bully, makes a good argument from the annihilation of those, of Canaan, um, without adding any of that in there. But it makes sense again, not putting my Vatican stamp on it, but there's different areas you can get to when interpreting that specific passage differently. 


[01:08:34] Ben: Like we said, there's. So many implications from just the slight change in interpretation from two verses in the Bible. And if you interpret it one way, there are certain issues that you need to address. And if you interpret it another way, there are completely separate issues that you need to address. 


[01:08:52] But solutions to some of the issues that I've had at the very least from reading the Bible suddenly become a lot easier to reconcile. It's just there are separate questions suddenly that become things you have to deal with. It's just, it's, it is a bit frustrating we don't have any concrete answers to these questions, but I think there's a good reason that we don't. 


[01:09:10] Cody: No, and one of the main issues for taking the Sons of God approach to me is you have to lean a lot into the supernatural. And that means you have to fill in the gaps a lot, because it's not something, one, we really understand anything about, and it's, Another, this too, it's, we don't really have a lot of scripture explaining the supernaturals. 


[01:09:34] It makes sense. It can make sense, but there's also, you got to fill in the gaps a little bit more, I think. 


[01:09:42] Ben: Or at the very least be willing to not have answers to a lot of questions. Yeah. To be willing to just let those gaps be gaps. 


[01:09:51] Gina: Thank you so much for taking the time to listen to our podcast today. If you liked what you heard, please feel free to subscribe and share and leave a positive review. 


[01:10:01] And if you would like to connect with us on social media, you can do so on Instagram and Facebook at the logic of God. You can also send us an email at main dot the logic of God at gmail. com. Thanks again for listening. We hope you have a great day.

How Should We Approach Disagreement And Debate Part 2

[00:00:00] Cody: Hi, thank you for tuning in to the Logic of God podcast. I'm Cody. 


[00:00:14] Gina: I'm Gina. 


[00:00:15] Cody: And I'm Ben. If you're returning, thank you for coming back and if you are a new guest, welcome. 


[00:00:33] Gina: So how do you trust your own interpretation of Bible reading? 


[00:00:38] Cody: You don't. 


[00:00:40] Gina: Don't lean on your own understanding. 


[00:00:42] Cody: Yeah. A lot of interpretation, and I think I've talked about this before on previous episodes, but if you go into Bible study with the intention to disprove somebody, you're probably interpreting Bible not through the correct lens. 


[00:00:59] You're not in the right heart posture or mindset to interpret scripture if your sole intent is to prove somebody else wrong. Now that could be edifying to an extent, but I think that's more of a collateral advantage than, you know, a true fruit of going in with that heart or mind posture. But I don't know. 


[00:01:22] I think to myself or I tell myself that I'm probably wrong about stuff But that pushes me to study further and instead of just going through one or two experts I beat the dead horse and look at a lot of experts 


[00:01:38] Gina: Use resources that are trustworthy. 


[00:01:40] Cody: Yeah, I mean you stuff that is well reviewed or well respected for sure The peer review process is great, but don't just stop with one peer reviewed article Go through many of those, read some dead people, I always say that is all of the problems the church has now, guaranteed they've been facing for thousands of years in the past at one point in time. 


[00:02:04] You can usually find something that speaks to your specific issue or what you're trying to get through and any of the past or early church fathers pretty easily. There's a lot of great search engines out there outside of Google as well. 


[00:02:20] Ben: I also don't think that we need to put down our own reason, our own capacity to figure out what the Bible is saying aside. 


[00:02:28] Like, we don't need to downplay that. This is Homily 33 on Acts, which I thought was really good, and I'm gonna hopefully not go too far into it, because there's a lot to quote here, but it's a good section. But which am I to believe, knowing as I do nothing at all of the scriptures? The others will also allege the same thing for themselves. 


[00:02:48] What then if the others come and say that the Scripture has this, and you that it has something different, and you interpret the Scriptures diversely, dragging their sense each to his own way? And you then, I ask, have you no understanding, no judgment? If he should say what you say about the Christians, there is such and such a multitude of men and they have different doctrines. 


[00:03:09] This is a heathen, that is a Jew, the other is a Christian, no need to accept any doctrine whatever, for they are at variance one with another. But I am a learner, and I do not wish to be judged. But, if you have yielded so far as to pronounce against one doctrine, this pretext no longer has place for you. 


[00:03:27] For just as you were able to reject the spurious, so here also you shall be able to prove what is profitable. Let us not make pretexts and excuses. And all will be easy. So break that down in layman's terms. So basically, the author there is having a mock conversation with himself, theorizing what someone who's brand new to Christianity might say, in kind of defense of their own ignorance, and not wanting to take sides. 


[00:03:55] There's just so much out there. There's no way for me to possibly know. And you might say something is doctrine, but other people are saying this other thing is doctrine, and they say that you're heathens, and you say that they're heathens. I just have no way of knowing. And what the author was saying was, you have the faculties to be able to look at something and say it's absurd. 


[00:04:13] Once you say that about one thing, you've admitted the fact that you're capable of reason. And from that, you should be able to trust yourself to work through this. All will be made easy. And we don't even just need to rely on rationality. If we genuinely believe that the power of the Holy Spirit can teach us things and do work within us, then we should be able to trust that plain reading of the Scripture will get us something. 


[00:04:36] Not that study of the Scripture has no merit at all, because studying the Scriptures and figuring out their original context is very important and it's very edifying. But that's an additional step. At the surface level, you can do plain reading of scripture and learn a lot when you read the Proverbs. 


[00:04:52] You don't need a degree in philosophy to figure out what, what Solomon is saying. He's writing for the benefit of his children. He's writing in a way that people can understand. And the truth is that the vast majority of letters that were written by Paul that were written by the apostles were meant to be read and understood by the layman of their time. 


[00:05:13] They weren't written for theological scholars. It was the good news. Jesus himself was preaching to the average, everyday person. And yeah, there's a lot of depth to what was taught, but that depth you can learn over time. There is the base gospel message, and you can very easily understand that. As far as what we can trust, God has given you a degree of reason. 


[00:05:34] Some of us have an easier time working through reason and what we think than others. And some people have, you know, A much more emotional connection through which they can more easily hear the Holy Spirit's voice. If you genuinely seek, you will find, either way. But honestly, I find that where a lot of people start to stumble is when they start listening to other people explain what the Bible means. 


[00:05:56] Sadly, I see a lot of this in Like, there was a recent debate that I saw between, not, it wasn't a recent debate, but it's just a debate that I recently saw that was an older debate, maybe 10 years old, between James White and there was a Catholic apologist, and they were talking about whether the apocryphal books were part of scripture. 


[00:06:13] And there's the book of Judith, which has multiple very clear historical errors in it. Like, it says that Nebuchadnezzar reigned from the capital of Syria. Which he did not. Yeah, it says Nineveh. He reigned from Nineveh. And that he reigned in a time period where he didn't reign. That the temple was rebuilt before it was destroyed. 


[00:06:34] It has a lot of very serious inaccuracies that are really hard to justify. And when James White brought this up, and the Catholic apologist was confronted with this, he didn't have a good explanation for why this would be scripture. But essentially he said, we have to start from the position that it's scripture. 


[00:06:54] And then from there we have to say that everything in it is true or explainable. Not that because everything in it is true, and God breathed and inspired. That it's scripture, but that we have to say that it's scripture first, and then it's God breathed and inspired. And I find that a lot of these high level, high minded theological discussions are where people are so smart they come around back to being stupid again. 


[00:07:18] They can just convince themselves of anything. I've done this too. This isn't to throw any shade against the guy that Dr. White was debating, because I find that for smart people, And I don't even know that I should call myself that. We, we tend to overthink things to the point we become complete idiots. 


[00:07:32] And it's the simple things of this world that are used to shame the wise. 


[00:07:36] Cody: Yeah. That's why I dislike presuppositional apologetics, but. 


[00:07:41] Ben: Which is unfortunate because we have our five presuppositions. 


[00:07:44] Cody: Yeah. 


[00:07:45] Ben: Yeah. Gina, you've included in this outline, a point on judgment by judgment. Do you mean like discernment, like figuring things out, or do you mean judgment as in judging other people? 


[00:07:54] Gina: Judging other people. Yeah. 


[00:07:56] Ben: Alright, so do you think that there is any point where we can judge believers, non believers, anybody? Is there anybody that we can pass judgment upon? 


[00:08:05] Gina: There's a difference between holy judgment and human judgment. I don't believe that we can pass any form of holy judgment. I don't think that we can make an evaluation on somebody's salvation short of them just saying they're not Christian. 


[00:08:20] Then at that point, they've claimed their own eternity for themselves. But outside of that, I don't think that it is right or acceptable for Christians to declare somebody else's salvation for them. I think that in aggressive arguments with believers and non believers, it becomes really easy to get angry and then you throw your judgment in there. 


[00:08:42] And that would be what I would say is human judgment. There are some examples in scripture that allow for that, but usually it's between believers, not a believer and a non believer. 


[00:08:53] Cody: The judgment thing, I think, gets thrown around quite a bit, especially by non Christians. They tend to cite, judge not lest ye be judged, but I think a better, and this is why research and translations matter, is because I think a better, More accurate translation for that is judge not unrighteously, lest thee be judged, to the same accord of what you are judging that other person to. 


[00:09:20] But I think we are called to judge to an extent. We're told to keep our brothers and sisters accountable. And I think this is where the modern day gets judgment mixed up with just automatically being. Condemning that person, a rebuke or reproof shouldn't be taken as condemnation. If you're doing it accurately, usually you're trying to better that person and help them rather than condemn them. 


[00:09:51] But that is obviously not always the case. There's lots of, what is that famous Westboro or Southboro 


[00:09:58] Ben: Baptist church. 


[00:09:59] Cody: That is not a good form of rebuke, in my opinion. 


[00:10:03] Ben: I think the question is, where are you assuming the authority lies when you're making a judgmental assessment? Are you thinking that you are capable of analyzing the person's soul through what they're doing, and declaring, through the power of God, through your voice alone, they are never going to enter the Holy Kingdom, they are going to the outer darkness, and And condemned to the pits of hell for all eternity. 


[00:10:26] You are doing that. In many ways, I think that's what this discussion is about. Are you recognizing that someone is doing something wrong? In which case, you're recognizing God's authority, because God has passed down to us what's right and what's wrong. And so if you have a brother or sister who is living in a way that That doesn't line up with scripture. 


[00:10:44] You're right, Cody. Like, it's on us to hold one another accountable. And this is something that Paul literally does. There is a man who is with his father's wife, and you are proud of this? Why didn't you cast this person out from amongst your company? Paul makes it abundantly clear what our role is here. 


[00:11:01] We're not pronouncing judgment on someone's eternal soul. Rather, we're looking at what a person is doing. And comparing it to the Bible and saying that doesn't line up with what we're supposed to be doing. Now, I do think that there is the distinction between, you know, looking at a brother or sister in Christ's life and looking at a non believer's life. 


[00:11:21] But I don't know. What do you guys think? Is it different for someone in the church versus outside the church? 


[00:11:25] Gina: Definitely. Nobody ever got saved by being called an abomination. I say that sometimes, but I genuinely mean that. If you're going to be a representative of Christ and of your church, the big C church, you have to be really cautious how you speak to other people in judgment and in correction because you can give them a taste in their mouth that keeps them out of church forever. 


[00:11:49] And that really defeats the purpose of the conversation in my opinion. Like why even have a debate or a discussion at that point if you're just going to turn them away. 


[00:11:59] Cody: Yeah, I think it's clear in the scripture you mentioned about the sexually immoral, uh, inside the church was directed at the congregants and what they were allowing amongst themselves. 


[00:12:12] It, and it actually, it's clear. Was one of the verses that I highlighted. It's first Corinthians 1 9 through 13 I write to you in my letter not to associate with sexual immoral people not at all meaning the people of this world Who are immoral or greedy and swindlers or idolaters? In that case, you would have to leave this world. 


[00:12:33] But now I'm writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister, that's in Christ, but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolator or slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. Do not even eat with such people. What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? 


[00:12:54] Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. Expel the wicked person from among you. So Paul is telling us that it is our job to judge the people inside because they have agreed to be upheld by the standards written in the Bible. Those outside do not. So you don't hold them to the same accountability as those inside the church. 


[00:13:20] God will take care of those. You still preach and show those outside loving inside as well, but we are to correct and You know how, how Paul also talks about presenting your wife, we're supposed to cover our wives in the word, the water and present them without blemish. I think that's also should be a goal of other Christians. 


[00:13:41] If you're in a community, you're trying to cover them in the word, you use scripture as your foundation for rebuke, but you try to present them or make sure that they're presenting themselves as without blemish. 


[00:13:56] Ben: Yeah, I agree. And I don't think it gets much more clear than what Paul said there, as he covered literally everything. 


[00:14:02] Who are we to judge the people outside the church? Now I don't think that means that you just leave all reason at the door whenever you exit the church. And you're like, okay, everyone outside the church, I just, I don't know. They're just doing whatever they're doing. Just chill lives. What does 


[00:14:17] Gina: it mean when you're among the Gentiles to live as a Gentile? 


[00:14:21] That's a verse people have used in this context. I'm just curious what you think. 


[00:14:24] Ben: When in Rome, live as the Romans do. Part of this discussion was addressed by Paul in terms of the cultural practice of eating food sacrificed to idols. On its surface, that sounds like an absolutely horrible thing you should never do. 


[00:14:39] Idols are very and the sacrifices done to them are in the name of the false gods who are demons, and an idol's not even a thing in and of itself. At best, you're Sacrificing to things of wood and stone and metal and at worst you're literally sacrificing to demons So why are you eating that food? You would think the answer to that question can I eat food sacrifice to an idol would be absolutely not never no That's disgusting terrible. 


[00:15:04] You're evil for even thinking about doing it. May you rot in hell forever That's not the position that Paul takes what Paul says is what it's food You give thanks in your heart, you're giving thanks to God, whatever it is you're eating, give thanks for it, and if it's unto the Lord, then yeah, it's fine. 


[00:15:20] Now, the problem comes from if there's another brother or sister who is very adamantly against it, who doesn't share your faith and your confidence, sees you doing that, And then that, because they don't understand, causes them to stumble in some way. They either fall away from the faith, or it strikes up a very ardent discussion, which you know will ensue. 


[00:15:39] That's where you start to get into the rockier territory, but as far as the act itself, in this case the cultural practice of eating food sacrificed to idols of being a part of these festivals, Paul said you can absolutely do it, but don't let your knowledge that you can destroy a brother or sister. And that's what it means, essentially, to live amongst the Gentiles, to be in the world but not be of it. 


[00:16:00] There are cultural practices and things that people outside of the church do in their everyday lives, and we can be a part of that. In fact, we should be. We need to be able to brush shoulders with people to be able to talk to them about Jesus. I came from A culture, a Christian subculture in America, in small town America, I moved from a tiny town in middle of nowhere Wisconsin to just a reasonably sized city, and I didn't, I practically spoke a different language, I spoke Christianese almost exclusively, people thought I was really weird, they were scared of me, they thought I was some kind of serial killer who was going to murder them. 


[00:16:35] And I didn't know any of the references that they were making culturally. And so there was a divide between me and them. And over time, I did eventually cross that divide. And I'm now very capable of talking with people who share my culture, which is American culture, modern American culture. And you can make arguments that modern American culture isn't good or whatever. 


[00:16:55] The point is that I speak the same language, and so I can reach out to them. What Paul said, I am whoever I need to be in order to reach the people I'm speaking to. That doesn't mean you cross over into sin, and that does take a degree of wisdom and discretion, and you need to be aware of your brothers and sisters around you, and how it is they're going to take what you do with the liberty in which you approach your actions. 


[00:17:17] But, you don't create a wall so great that no one can cross it. You don't create a wall and say the evil people who aren't the church are out there and I'm in here. Because you're not gonna reach anybody that way. It's like you say, Gina, no one got saved by being called an abomination. Similarly, nobody got saved by not being talked to. 


[00:17:35] Gina: All really good points. 


[00:17:36] Ben: Thank you. 


[00:17:38] Gina: Cody's done. 


[00:17:39] Ben: I'm not done. What's next? Yeah, what is next? 


[00:17:43] Gina: What about the power of words? Do our words have power, like spiritual power? 


[00:17:48] Cody: I think so, yes. There is a lot of scientific, just to go on a just weird turn, there is a lot of scientific Before 


[00:17:58] Gina: you talk, don't you dare say it about my plant. 


[00:18:00] Ben: Yes. Cover its ears! 


[00:18:02] Cody: Cover its ears. But just the mentality you take with plants, and if you go in screaming at them, calling them names are derogatory and negative, and the Opposite side of that, you're uplifting, you talk to them, you're positive. The negative one will die and produce less fruit, and the one you're positive to is usually more fruitful and flourishes. 


[00:18:30] So even with plants, there is, and they can't measure why that's happening, but it is happening and they can verify it and repeat the process over and over again. So, just on, just reading that, nothing to do with the Bible at all, there is plausibility and your words have power. 


[00:18:51] Gina: Isn't that just an example of manifestation? 


[00:18:54] Cody: You speak it into existence? 


[00:18:56] Gina: Yeah. 


[00:18:57] Cody: Without the Bible, I guess you could take it that way. I would 


[00:18:59] Ben: argue, no. So it's. Essentially mirroring in a strange scientific way the idea that sin corrupts. It's not manifesting anything. You're not actively telling the plant, Hey, grow. I am imagine I am imagining you are growing. 


[00:19:16] You are growing into a mighty tree. Your fruits will be massive and you will feed my whole family. You're not speaking what you want into reality. It's the content of what you're saying and the meaning behind it. If you're aggressively going up to your plant and saying nothing but horrible, awful things, with bile coming out of your mouth, versus saying really nice, encouraging things, your plant In one sense is being destroyed and in the other sense is being built up. 


[00:19:43] I think that's the general idea. 


[00:19:45] Cody: Yeah. 


[00:19:46] Ben: See, I'm definitely not making the argument and Cody's definitely not making the argument that you can manifest there. What Gina is talking about is there's this kind of general idea that's becoming very popular for some reason. If 


[00:20:01] Gina: I say it. It's real. 


[00:20:03] Ben: You speak it into existence. 


[00:20:05] You say the thing that you want to happen and if you really believe it, you really believe it because you believe it and because you said it out loud, it'll happen. 


[00:20:15] Gina: And a lot of times people get paranoid because they'll say, I'm scared that I have a lump and it might be cancer and if I say that then it will be cancer because I'm manifesting it or something along those lines and it's no, actually, no. 


[00:20:30] Ben: Now, to an extent, I think that there is some truth. In this idea, not that you can actually manifest things by saying and believing them. But, let's say that you have a goal, something that you're trying really hard to do. Let's say that you want to learn a language. If you just internalize that, it's probably not going to go anywhere. 


[00:20:49] But if you actively tell other people, you know what? I want to learn a language. You externalize it. Suddenly more people are going to be more likely to ask you, Hey, how's it going learning a language? And if you've literally made no progress, it's You got to tell these people that you have made no progress and so or you 


[00:21:05] Gina: just pull a cody and tell everyone the Japanese 


[00:21:08] Cody: everyone And actually you told her I knew 


[00:21:15] Gina: it I don't even remember how it started I said 


[00:21:17] Cody: nothing I just speak gibberish 


[00:21:22] Ben: But yeah when you actually Externalize things. 


[00:21:25] They're more likely to happen if only because more people are going to hold you accountable. And because you've now made it not something that's just sitting inside your heart, something that you feel, but you're never going to act on. Suddenly it's something that you've externalized. And there's a lot of Psychological work that hasn't been disproven yet to back that up. 


[00:21:44] Cody: No, and I do think I agree with you on that, the manifesting it, quote unquote. If you wake up and pray for something every day, or even say something every day, and that is constantly in your mind, and you constantly strive for that, I think that is not manifesting. You're going to have to work hard for it still, but versus you just, if I sit here and my feet are going to grow to be size 17, like that's not going to happen. 


[00:22:15] Gina: With negative manifestation, there's like something called the body keeps score. And I think that is more logical. The body keeps score is more like if you have trauma that you haven't dealt with, or if you have an old medical issue that you didn't deal with, it will build up in your body to a toxic point, causing major issues. 


[00:22:40] Emotional trauma can be caused by words. Words can bring death or life, so if your body is keeping score and you've had death spoken over you your whole life, then it could be logical that your body is sick or your mind is sick because of the death that's been spoken over you. 


[00:23:00] Cody: I think Jordan Peterson actually talks quite a bit about this. 


[00:23:05] There's one of his short clips that I've seen recently about his patients that he saw, and they're in a clear trouble spot where they're at, and like, they can't think of why that would possibly be happening to him, but he'll walk them back to a certain point in their life where they thought, it's, the, the, I can't remember the analogy that he uses, but he talks about how they're, they did something and they thought they got away with it, and they're trying to twist the fabric of reality. 


[00:23:39] And I think he's talking about sin, actually, but that it'll catch up with you. And I think he also talks about smoking. Smoking, in the moment, you don't reap any of the negative side effects. In the moment when you smoke your first cigarette, but if you keep doing it day after day, you are going to most likely get lung cancer or mouth cancer or something of the sort. 


[00:24:03] So it, it catches up to you. 


[00:24:06] Gina: Why does this matter in argument and debate? 


[00:24:09] Ben: Because argument and debate is done through speech. We got to talk to people to argue with them or discuss with them. And it's a very humbling thing to know that your words can either change a person's life for the best. Or completely destroy them. 


[00:24:24] Cody: And it could be people like, know your audience we've talked about. Could be somebody else watching you just be this terrible Christian debating this atheist. And they're like, I don't want any part of this Christianity if that's how those people act. You've got to be Condemn their soul by your actions. 


[00:24:44] And James, I think James three, one talks about leaders and not many of them, not many people should be leaders because they will be judged more strictly. And if you're getting into a teaching or debate type mentality or discussion. And you're going to be held responsible, I think, at the end times when you're being judged by Christ about that person because you were acting like a complete fool trying to win the argument and you didn't show the love of Christ at all and you're speaking down on them and you caused that other person to fall or not go the direction he should have gone. 


[00:25:29] Gina: But isn't that an excuse? Shouldn't they just have thicker skin? 


[00:25:32] Ben: So thicker skin is definitely something all of us should just be seeking generally to have. We shouldn't be looking to take offense to the things that people say. At the same time, we also need to be aware of the fact not everyone has it. 


[00:25:46] And we shouldn't be using that fact as an excuse to just say whatever we want and say, They should have this, therefore I'm going to treat them with a measure of abuse. It's not good for your own soul to be acting that way. If you're approaching discussion with a spirit of cruelty, then you will become a cruel person. 


[00:26:04] And there's no room for someone like that in the Kingdom of Heaven. There just isn't. It all depends on the attitude with which you're approaching these things. And, in part, the result. Now, the result, in the end, is in God's hands. God is the one who calls people to Him. But, you control your own effort. You control your own intent. 


[00:26:22] And again, if you're coming into these discussions with the intent of I am going to win, I am going to have the glory, I am a proud person, and I'm going to show this person how stupid they are. There's no glory for God in that, even if you win. And believe me, it's very easy to win arguments. People do it all the time. 


[00:26:41] Gina: It's real hard to win a soul. 


[00:26:43] Ben: So yeah, if all you want to do is win, You don't have to be right. Winning is easy, being right is very difficult, and helping someone, convincing someone, actually convincing somebody is really hard. 


[00:26:56] Gina: So how do you, what do you do, how do you respond when you've had these conversations with somebody and you've debated and discussed and argued and prayed and hopefully spoke a lot of life over them, and they're still like, nah, what do you do, when do you give up? 


[00:27:11] Ben: Yeah, I had to face this particular question back when my brother Jack was still alive. He was both converting to Judaism and engaging in an adulterous relationship with a married woman, which was very confusing for me and my family. And we didn't understand why he was taking the position of Judaism was correct and simultaneously not following any of the things taught by Judaism. 


[00:27:36] Because neither Jew nor Christian looks at that kind of a relationship and says it's okay. But my brother was actively trying to justify it. And he was trying to justify why he didn't believe in Christianity despite the fact that for most of his life he was a Christian. And there were so many arguments that I had with him. 


[00:27:53] And I won probably 99 percent of the arguments that I had with him. And he didn't, he wasn't convinced. Hey, this is one of the reasons why I have the opinion about winning arguments that I do, because I won. He would have said I won, and I felt like I was right, and maybe I was right about most of the things. 


[00:28:09] In fact, as far as Christ goes, yes, I was, but I wasn't approaching it in the right spirit. I was thinking, no, he's wrong, and he's stupid, and he's dumb for having left Christianity, and in some way I feel betrayed, and I feel like he's betrayed everything that he's believed in, and so I'm gonna show him how stupid and wrong he is. 


[00:28:27] I was approaching it with a spirit of pride, and it didn't help my brother. And it wasn't until closer to the end of his life when both I and my father started approaching it very differently. And suddenly our discussions about Christianity and Judaism started to become much less frequent. And when they happened, they were much more loving and kind. 


[00:28:45] And mostly we just focused on loving him and letting him know that we loved him. And just letting his own actions speak for themselves. He was his own teacher at that point. And there's a section in the Bible where Paul talks about handing someone over to Satan for them to be saved. At some point, it's not that you absolve yourself of concern. 


[00:29:07] It's not that you stop praying necessarily, although we talked about that before. There is a point where you can just say, Lord, it's in your hands. And you've made it clear to me that it's done. In truth, I never stopped praying for my brother. And I never stopped loving him, even to the day that he died. 


[00:29:22] But there was a point where I didn't feel it was my job to spell out to him how wrong he was every time we saw each other. And our relationship was much better for it. And at that point, he could look at his own actions. He wasn't focused on proving me wrong or arguing with me. He was just focused on the fruits of his own labor. 


[00:29:43] And you know a tree by its fruit, and by the end he knew that what he was growing wasn't good. But, that's the truth. You, you don't have control over the other person. You have control over yourself. And if you're finding that your discussions are actually making you a worse person, then you need to reassess why you're having those discussions. 


[00:30:01] Gina: Thank you for sharing that. I wrote this question at the very bottom. It says, Can we take it too far when teaching others evangelizing or debating? And if it's God's desire to have everyone saved, should we endeavor to make that happen at all costs? Are numbers what we're after? Or is it the depth of the relationship that matters? 


[00:30:22] If I get a million people to repeat after me, is it as meaningful for their eternity as it would be if I had discipled somebody, just one person? 


[00:30:32] Ben: So I've seen so many churches report a decrease in attendance. And so many of them, so many churches, so many people in church leadership have taken the position that because not that many people are coming to church as there used to be, we need to make changes. 


[00:30:50] Some people take that to be a change in presentation, a change in the worship music that we sing, and to an extent I can understand that. But some take it as we need to change the way that we present the gospel. And for many of those churches, they see a short term boost in the number of people who come in. 


[00:31:10] Because you're just telling everybody a watered down version of the gospel. Jesus loves you. He wants you to come in. He wants you to be happy. He wants you to have a good time. But after a while, people realize that's the whole substance of what you have. That's it. They get it on day one. There's no more depth. 


[00:31:27] There's nothing more to learn. And so as a result, either they fall away from the faith, Or they inject more of their own opinions into the faith and further lead the church aside. Or you have a splintering of the church where the people who are really hungry for something more find they're not being fed, and so they go somewhere else. 


[00:31:45] And they bring a whole bunch of those same like minded people from the church with them. 


[00:31:50] Gina: Is that shallow Thanksgiving kind of thing that they've got going on the reason why we end up in these debates to begin with? 


[00:31:59] Ben: Shallow Thanksgiving, what do you mean? 


[00:32:00] Gina: Like, the feast of the good feelings at church. 


[00:32:05] Ben: I think there are going to be seasons in the church's life where there aren't going to be as many people actively seeking because they don't want to feel convicted of the things they know they're doing wrong. 


[00:32:15] In those times, the church needs the most to step up and reveal the gospel message. And again, it's not on you if someone listens. It's on you how you approach speaking to them. You can't control the result, you can control your own effort. And you can, to some extent, control your own heart. We're not called to force everyone to believe. 


[00:32:39] And we shouldn't be looking at the decrease in the number of people attending. And in parts of the U. S. it's actually going up. But there are some churches who are sticking true to the gospel message. And they find that, one, the people who are attending, they're being fed. And that's one of the biggest concerns you should have in the church. 


[00:32:58] It's one of the two. One, are you reaching people outside of the church? And two, are you feeding the people who are coming? You can't sacrifice one for the other. But I am finding that way too many people are sacrificing one for the other now. And so we're not getting these incredible warrior brothers and sisters in Christ. 


[00:33:17] We're supposed to be warriors. We're supposed to be soldiers. But we're not being equipped. Because there's a fear that people will hear something other than this watered down milk version of the Bible and be terrified. Or, Lord forbid, you find out that there's a measure of responsibility you're not living up to. 


[00:33:35] That's true for all of us. Recently, that was something that I was convicted of. It was before we started doing this podcast. I was convicted of the fact I just wasn't doing much. I was going once a week to church and that was it. I wasn't talking to anybody. I went in, sang the songs, listened to the guy talk, and then I went home. 


[00:33:51] But now I started doing this podcast with you and Cody, Gina. And I started doing some projects with Cody working in the community. And I. I started doing more things as acts of service for my family, and that's a huge change. That's the measure of feeding we're supposed to be getting from the church. 


[00:34:11] That's what I hope everybody gets from the church. But if you're actively trying to keep them from leaving, so you don't push them to have that, then what's the point? You're just trying to get people to sit in seats so that, what, for what purpose? So they can stay as children, spiritual children, for the rest of their lives, and hope that they can pass through the gates of heaven. 


[00:34:31] That seems to be the reasoning. As long as they're in church, they're not in hell. 


[00:34:35] Cody: One of the things on that I've seen and have tried to call out, um, and do my best to counteract it. It seems like in, in the parable of the sower you have multiple soil types and it seems like the mega churches and the Prosperity gospel churches are sowing seed only on the, I think it's the rocky path. 


[00:35:04] The one that sprouts up super fast, is on fire for God, looks great, but is choked out because it's not getting, like it's not in the proper healthy soil. It's not getting that foundation of faith to grow correctly and stay. rooted in the soil and you get the numbers there because you're just sowing so much seed on this rocky path and it's shooting up and it looks great and you have all of these plants growing they look like they're growing but at the end they end up just withering in the sun and dying because anytime something counteracts what they have been taught or they realize that it's just the same thing on repeat. 


[00:35:50] they fall away because they have no other foundation to stand on. And you've been talking about Just, the salvation is not on the preacher or any one person for any other individual than yourself. And Paul talks about, Paul's going to plant the seed, Apollos is going to water it, but the growth is to God. 


[00:36:14] But we need to continually water that. 


[00:36:18] Gina: And pull the rocks out and till the 


[00:36:21] Cody: soil. Soil preparation. Stupid, but prep the soil for people. Give them a good foundation, continue to put nutrients, the other aspects of scripture into that, their growth so that they're fed and, and continue to grow. 


[00:36:40] Gina: And that's not just their responsibility of the church, it's our own individual responsibility. 


[00:36:44] And part of soil preparation is preparing our heart to deal with these interactions. Because you gotta expect the unexpected. You have to make sure that you know the who, what, when, where, and why. You have to know your Bible and be able to steer people to that and have it a response for everything. The Bible tells us that. 


[00:37:03] We have to have a defense for everything. Your soil preparation is good soil preparation for somebody else and sets an example that is going to be sustainable for others. So then you're prepared for discipleship. 


[00:37:18] Ben: And what I think is so interesting about the parable that you just cited, Cody, when you think about it, what is soil? 


[00:37:26] It's the plants of the past that have fallen, decomposed, and then the new plants take that in. You need to be tapped into the people who've come before you. You need to be tapped into the people around you. You need to be tapped into the church. You need to be pulling from the wisdom of your fathers, from the wisdom of the church that came before us, from the scripture. 


[00:37:51] From what's been passed on to us. And you need to be pulling from the people around you. You need to be built up by your church brothers and sisters. And them holding you accountable. And together, we're all able to raise one another up. If you don't have that, then there's no point. If you decide that all that matters is just Getting people in and that's it. 


[00:38:13] There is no pulling. There is no, the only way that we get that depth is in part through that leadership, but also through the encouragement of the people around us. Yet you have to be pushed to tap that soil. You have to be pushed to be planted there. 


[00:38:27] Gina: I don't know. It's if somebody's hanging onto a cliff edge and they're like, help me. 


[00:38:32] And you like boop them on the nose instead of grabbing them by the hand. It takes a lot of work to lift somebody up out of that. It's not easy and sometimes you need help. 


[00:38:43] Ben: Yeah, and what is it that James says? There's a, a portion where he's talking about how, what's the point if someone comes to you hungry and you say, I'll be praying for you. 


[00:38:51] Keep warm and well fed. What's the value of your faith? I'll show you my faith by what I do. If we're just interested in winning, if we're just interested in getting butts in seats, what is the value of our faith? What's the value of our prayers? What is the fruit of our labor? There won't be any. 


[00:39:08] Gina: But I'm not seeing a lot of fruit right now. 


[00:39:11] Especially as a woman. And that's why Cody's example to me has been very helpful, but it's not a common thing in women to have these theological debates and discussions. I have a lot of female friends and most of them love talking about what they're reading in the Bible and stuff, but they don't want to be challenged or they don't want to share what they know. 


[00:39:34] And I struggle with that because, like you said, we're warriors, like, we're meant to be soldiers for God. And there's this, like, really diluted, I don't know, culture of women in Christianity right now that I don't like. 


[00:39:49] Ben: I do think that a lot of it does actually have to do with the fact that marriage rates are non existent. 


[00:39:55] Not to say that automatically when you get married to somebody that you're going to become a stronger warrior for Christ. But what you guys have is modeled in the Bible. That's what it's supposed to be. It's supposed to be the two of you building one another up. And it's supposed to be a model of, or a type of, Christ's relationship with the church, the marriage of the spotless bride before Christ. 


[00:40:19] That's what it's supposed to be. And so that's, you know, It's a mechanism through which you can come to know the Lord better. And what I'm finding is true for myself. I'm not married and marriage rates for people my age and younger is very low. It's abysmal right now. It's the lowest it's ever been. And I don't think that's good. 


[00:40:37] I don't think that we're made better by just being single and thinking about ourselves all the time. and not having responsibilities outside of ourselves. One of the benefits of marriage is suddenly you're not on your own anymore. And once you have children, you have a shared goal. And you have to constantly externalize the things that you believe. 


[00:40:56] You constantly have to test the things that you believe. For me as a single man, what am I doing? What do I have to do? I have to actively go out and seek responsibility. I don't have it. So I do think that's an obstacle for a lot of people in the church today. And a lot of women, too. Because if men aren't married, then women aren't either. 


[00:41:18] Gina: Yeah, that's a good point. So is there a point at which you give up? Or not just on an individual, but on people? How many times do you get rejected before you just say, okay, fine, be that way? 


[00:41:33] Ben: I think that does depend on the person. A lot of this, like there is no universal, okay, you forgive a person seven times and then that's it. 


[00:41:43] Gina: No, seventy times seven. 


[00:41:45] Ben: Seventy groups of seven. The Bible doesn't explicitly tell us how many times we should be rejected by somebody when talking to them about the gospel. A lot of that does ultimately come down to, what is the Lord telling you? That's the unfortunate thing, and the great thing about scripture, is that it is very specific in certain things. 


[00:42:06] And in other things, it just tells you there will be a time, but it doesn't tell you anything more. For Paul's part, he does mention people who had been handed over to Satan, so that they could be saved. You don't know exactly what line you need to cross. In order to get to that point, but the line exists, and I do think it's different for each person. 


[00:42:23] It takes wisdom, it takes discretion, it takes the power of the Holy Spirit. And if we had simple, easy, numerical answers for all of these things, we wouldn't need the Spirit. We would just have the numbers. You would just have the formula to fall back on. We have certainties in the areas we need certainties. 


[00:42:41] And for the areas where we don't have certainties, but we know an answer exists, we have the Spirit of God. And we have our brothers and sisters, and we have our understanding and wisdom that we can build through experience. 


[00:42:53] Gina: If you put it back into terms of gardening and preparing soil, like when we were in Israel, one of the things that They pointed out to us was that some of the fields were like, taking a break, because in order to be kosher and adhere to the Jewish law, they had to, every so many years, not grow anything. 


[00:43:15] And there are going to be just seasons throughout the year where you don't grow anything. We live in Florida. You can't grow anything in the summer here because it rains constantly and it's way too hot. If you're expecting yourself to be fruitful year round, that's not very realistic. You grow, I have a rose bush out back, it grows like three times a year at blooms. 


[00:43:36] And that's it. And the rest of the time, it's just a thorn bush and it's not the most pleasant thing to look at, but If you're living your life expecting to constantly be in bloom, you're not being realistic. And I think that applies to speaking and debating and arguing with other people, because sometimes you're not ready, or you're not there. 


[00:43:59] And it's wisdom to remain quiet sometimes. Cody understands. 


[00:44:05] Cody: I do. 


[00:44:06] Gina: Sorry. Do you have anything else? 


[00:44:10] Cody: I don't know. One of the ones, the verses I didn't get to read that I like a lot is, if you claim to be religious, but don't control your tongue, you are only fooling yourself and your religion is worthless. 


[00:44:24] That's James 1, 26. 


[00:44:27] Gina: Your faith means nothing if you're not wise enough to stay quiet. 


[00:44:32] Cody: You gotta know when to hold them. 


[00:44:36] Ben: And honestly, that's a tough lesson for me personally. More often than not, I would prefer to say something than not say something. And over the past few years especially, and doing the podcast too, it's been important to learn when it's time to shut up and let other people talk, and when it's time to actually learn something from someone else. 


[00:44:56] Thanks so much. And it's still not a lesson I've fully taken to heart yet, sadly, but I'm working on it. 


[00:45:01] Gina: We have passion like, we get passionate, right? And it's, uh, I feel so strongly, and I'm so frustrated, and Like, it's easy to generalize or speak unwisely in that passion and you feel so strong about it and then you end up being foolish because you've grouped in people that you love and care about that obviously don't fit that. 


[00:45:22] And we're not basing all of our opinions on churches on one church. This is through seminary and networking and past experiences. This is not. Us constantly bashing our own church. We wouldn't go there if we felt that way about this church. It's just a conglomerate of frustration over the years. Pete 


[00:45:45] Ben: Agreed. 


[00:45:46] Heather 


[00:45:48] Gina: Thank you so much for taking the time to listen to our podcast today. If you liked what you heard, please feel free to subscribe and share and leave a positive review. And if you would like to connect with us on social media, you can do so on Instagram and Facebook at the logic of God. You can also send us an email at main dot the logic of God at gmail.

How Should We Approach Disagreement And Debate Part 1

[00:00:00] Cody: Hi, thank you for tuning into the logic of God podcast. I'm Cody. 


[00:00:15] Gina: I'm Gina. 


[00:00:15] Cody: And I'm Ben. You're returning. Thank you for coming back. And if you are a new guest, welcome. So I came up 


[00:00:40] Gina: with the idea for tonight's episode. Cause, I think, when it comes to etiquette when debating or discussing theology or philosophy, I think there needs to be some boundaries. And we never really went over that. And I think it talks, it like touches on teaching, but it touches on judgment, and it touches on like where to, you Put boundaries in your own personal pursuit of this type of interaction. 


[00:01:07] So, watching Cody has been what influenced me to. 


[00:01:11] Cody: All my shortcomings. 


[00:01:12] Gina: And 


[00:01:14] Cody: your strengths too. Come on. Arguing online? 


[00:01:18] Gina: It's become more in person than it is online in the last few years. Oh, 


[00:01:23] Cody: arguing in person? 


[00:01:25] Gina: No, you've challenged a lot of people and flipped their thought processes on their heads, so it's been a really good thing, I think. 


[00:01:34] Cody: Yeah, it could probably be more gentle. Sending somebody through an existential crisis is probably not the best idea, but I don't know. 


[00:01:44] Ben: I think we should start this out with a question that's related to that. When you're having a discussion with someone, should your pursuit be to win? 


[00:01:52] Gina: No. 


[00:01:53] Ben: As a Christian, if we're discussing, or two Christians discussing, or a Christian and atheist discussing, or what have you, is it important for us to win if we're right? 


[00:02:02] Gina: Okay, my opinion, you want God to win. not yourself. If you're putting yourself in the victor's position, then you're putting pride ahead of God and that's wrong. Re evaluate your intentions and having those conversations. But also we've established our five core assumptions. Outside of that, I am willing to admit that I'm wrong. 


[00:02:23] And if I'm not willing to admit that I'm wrong, I think there's a problem because then I'm not teachable. You have to enter into those conversations knowing that at some point you may be wrong. And being okay with that. Except Cody, because he's right all the time. 


[00:02:37] Ben: But, if we're having a discussion with somebody, and from a biblical perspective they're clearly wrong, what exactly would be the value in not winning the argument, or at the very least, not seeking to win? 


[00:02:48] Like going for the most obvious cases, like a debate or argument, let's say, not debate necessarily because we'll get to that later, but just a discussion between a Christian and an atheist where the atheist is positing that God doesn't exist and you're saying that God does. Wouldn't it be important for us to win those kinds of arguments? 


[00:03:07] Are 


[00:03:08] Gina: you winning them for Christ or are you winning just because you're beating them? 


[00:03:12] Cody: That's a very good question. That's what I would ask. What is the target? When is the target that you proved your point and your superiority over their position? Or is the target that you made them think about their position and re evaluate how they approach it? 


[00:03:27] Gina: I don't think we're ever going to have 100 percent success in those kinds of arguments, whereas they walk away and they're like, you're right. You're right. Most of the time you're planting seeds and hoping that they grow. 


[00:03:38] Ben: It takes an enormous amount of character on either side for someone to actually admit that they're wrong. 


[00:03:45] So it's very rare that, no matter what, you're going to encounter someone who'll go, You know what? I didn't really think about it that way. You're probably right, I'm probably wrong, and you've changed my mind. That almost never, in fact, I can't even think of a time where that has happened, at the very least in the course of the same conversation. 


[00:04:03] I actually can think of a few times where Like Cody and I or Cody, Gina and I have discussed a topic like the best example I can think of is actually things like Cody started reading like Jubilees and I think Shepard of Hermas. Yep. And. As you were reading those and talking, it's not that we ever got into a deep theological discussion or debate about it, but just you bringing them up and talking about reading them and talking about some of the subjects. 


[00:04:29] There was a time in my life where I would have been very much, no, it's not scripture, I don't need it. But just you talking about that from a position that was a bit different from mine and hearing the edification that you got about it and you being very clear about the limits of the text that you're reading. 


[00:04:44] But the fact that there's some things in it that can be true. Like, hearing that, I was like, oh. Yeah, that makes sense. And that did shift my position. And even prior to our episode on, uh, scripture itself and the infallibility of scripture, you guys didn't hear it, but we actually had a pretty long and, not heated, but it was a, like, it was a tense conversation, I could say. 


[00:05:09] An energetic one. We weren't angry at each other or anything, but we were all just bringing up the things that we were thinking about, and that did actually shift my position. I don't know that it actually shifted either of your guys position that day from what I said. I'm pretty sure that you guys remained pretty much where you were, but my position became a bit more soft on it. 


[00:05:30] Not that I think that scripture is not infallible. I think, if you're regular listeners, you should know my position. Scripture is not inerrant. It has no error. The things that it says as true are true. That doesn't mean that there's not the occasional spelling error or a comma that's out of place or something like that. 


[00:05:45] And at one time in my life, that was much more the way that I looked at it, whereas By the time I talked to you guys, I wasn't quite that extreme, but I was still closer to that side of things than I should have been. And talking to you guys really edged me closer to a more, I guess you could say, moderate look at it. 


[00:06:01] And it's not even that you guys outright won the discussion or I outright won the discussion. It felt more like we ended in kind of a, I guess we just got to go our own separate way for now. But I didn't give you guys an indication that I was really thinking about it or that you guys made great points. 


[00:06:16] I had to do that later. And came to you guys in humility and said, you know what, you guys made some good points. I think that was actually more Cody than Eugene, sadly. But I remember we were just standing outside in a parking lot, talking to each other just to pass some time. And I was like, you know what? 


[00:06:30] You made some good points. And I think I know where you're coming from. And I think I agree. 


[00:06:34] Cody: Which is funny because I left that conversation thinking that ultimately we were coming at it from two different angles, but pretty much the same punchline. 


[00:06:43] Ben: Basically. And that's not really the way I was seeing it, and I was being foolish and pigheaded in the way that I was approaching it. 


[00:06:49] Yeah, moral of the story is you don't know how the other person is taking it. You don't know how they're going to respond, and you're right, you don't know if you've planted some seeds that are going to hopefully help the other person grow. But if you're approaching it from a pig headed position where you're just going to be very angry and you're going to say or do whatever it is you want to win, you're going to create bitterness. 


[00:07:10] You're going to more likely make the other person not want to listen at all. 


[00:07:14] Gina: I would agree with that. That's 


[00:07:17] Cody: apologetics though, is I think apologetics in general is very edifying to the already converted believer, but it comes off so aggressive to the people that agnostic or atheist or whoever that the debate is going on with that they just put up this barrier wall and you have this, you know, It's collateral damage that's good because it is edifying to the people who might not have known the points that the apologist was making, but for the other side just presents a defensive position where you don't really hear anything from the opposing standpoint and it just becomes moot. 


[00:08:03] I think apologetics in general should take a completely different approach and focus more inward to the people willing to hear the conversation instead of going at it as aggressive debate. 


[00:08:16] Ben: I think there are hills we need to know to die on and we can get into that later, but most subjects that we're going to approach are not hills you need to die on. 


[00:08:25] They're not hills you need to sacrifice your relationships for the sake of being right on. 


[00:08:30] Cody: I think we've mentioned rib versus spine quite a bit. 


[00:08:33] Ben: Yeah, and that does take a degree of wisdom and discretion to address. Like, you do need to figure out, okay, is this the rib issue or is this the spine issue? 


[00:08:44] And granted, it can be even more complicated than that. There are some people who will take a rib issue, but be so fixated on it that it eventually becomes a spine issue. We actually mentioned that with Calvinism. The idea that God determines everything isn't necessarily going to be something that destroys your walk with Christ. 


[00:09:02] But if suddenly you get this kind of nihilistic feeling of, okay, nothing I do matters, then that can, if you focus on it in the wrong way, develop into something unhealthy. 


[00:09:12] Cody: Yeah, and that can come from the other side, too. If all you're attacking is a calvinistic worldview, then there's a problem there, too. 


[00:09:21] Gina: I think you were stuck there for a while. 


[00:09:23] Cody: I was, for sure. I mentioned it didn't make a whole lot of, if you take it to the logical end, it doesn't make And that's where I was at in this mindset of, okay, how can, and a lot of it started that I was like, just asking questions, trying to get answers from a Calvinist on a Calvinist worldview to answer the problems I had in that worldview. 


[00:09:49] It turns heated a lot of the times and, 


[00:09:51] Gina: or they just disengage, 


[00:09:54] Cody: usually not most Calvinists want you to be a Calvinist at the end of the conversation. 


[00:09:59] Ben: To be fair, they don't have a choice and 


[00:10:02] Cody: neither do I, 


[00:10:05] Ben: nobody's got a choice, but I, I will say there was a time in my life where I definitely, I looked at being right as a confirmation that God was on my side. 


[00:10:17] And so succeeding in an argument, winning an argument, was a sign that God was with me. And there's some biblical precedent to back that up. When you look at Jewish history, it's every time the Jews won in a battle, it was because God was on their side. We attribute victory to God. Victory is in God's hands. 


[00:10:35] Like all of our successes, all good things come from God. However, He's also present in your failures. And the thing is, sometimes a failure is a good thing because it teaches you humility. And sometimes God will work through failure. both on you and on the person that you were talking with. I would encourage everyone listening. 


[00:10:55] One, if you're finding that you're not always on the winning end of an argument, don't get discouraged because if you approach things in such a way where you're kind and compassionate and generous, oftentimes people will, no matter how pigheaded they are after thinking about the fight that they just won, think, I guess I'm the bad guy. 


[00:11:15] It does take a degree of self reflection, but I find that does actually happen. 


[00:11:19] Cody: Yeah, there's a verse that comes to mind, and I can't, I tried to do a quick Google search for it, but it's like, what profit is it to gain the whole world but forfeit your soul? And that comes, if you're going to fight at it so pig headedly that you win the argument, you forfeit the soul that you could have won, because I think another one, Paul talks about doing everything in love, and without that, it's meaningless. 


[00:11:46] Ben: Now, I do think there is a difference between Just a general discussion with someone, and a debate. It's tough to always know the distinction, but usually a debate is something where you and an opponent have established rules, and there's usually an audience, and you're attempting to defend, or provide a defense for, your points of view. 


[00:12:06] In those instances, it's tough to make the argument that success doesn't matter. In an average everyday discussion, that's different, but Mark Lowry once talked about how there was a debate between W. A. Criswold and Madeleine Murray O'Hare and Murray O'Hare cleaned Criswold's clock because he was a godly gentleman and was very kind and the woman was just constantly interrupting him and getting him off his train of thought and so he just got destroyed in the debate that he had with her. 


[00:12:34] And there are people who will see that failure and think very much what we were talking about before. If God was with you, you would have won. Therefore, you didn't win, therefore he's not there. 


[00:12:44] Gina: Jesus on the cross. 


[00:12:47] Ben: You're absolutely right. Our perception of success and failure is not the thing that determines God or his presence. 


[00:12:52] That said, I would say that it's more important to win debates than it is to win discussions between people. But there are different tactics that you use in a debate versus a discussion. A really good example of this is actually Sam Shamoon doing debates with Muslims and There are a lot of people who've seen Sam Shamoon especially. 


[00:13:14] I've seen Dr. James White not talk very fondly about the way that Sam Shamoon handles his debates with Muslims, let's say. And he's very aggressive. And he'll say things like, I'll make you a liar just like your prophet, and things like that. And you would think that's very aggressive and not very helpful, but Sam's actually really good at convincing people. 


[00:13:34] And he doesn't say what he does out of anger or hatred for the people he's speaking to, he's trying to help them. And part of it. Unfortunately, there is a difference in culture between Christians and Muslims. You see this a lot in just general Christian versus Muslims debates. So one of the things that we do need to put an asterisk on here is what is the culture that you're talking about? 


[00:13:56] So if it's two people who are agreeing to be civil and kind and stick to the facts, it's going to be different. But There's an east meets west collision that happens in certain instances, especially apparent in Islam versus Christianity debates, where in Islam, it's much more important that your oration is confident and eloquent. 


[00:14:16] You're essentially telling a story on stage, and people buy into the story and buy into your confidence, and because you're confident, and you're speaking quickly and with great wit, Suddenly, you must be right. And this is something that Nabeel Qureshi talks about in his book, Seeking Allah, Finding Jesus, where he and David saw a debate between a Muslim and a Christian. 


[00:14:35] David thought the Christian won, and Nabeel thought that the Muslim won, and the reason he sided was he was just a better orator, and he was more clever, and he was much more confident. So, yeah, that's what Sam takes into his discussions with Muslims. So that is something that you do need to keep in mind, but that's not a universal, that doesn't mean that you're always aggressive. 


[00:14:52] It really does depend on who you're talking to. 


[00:14:55] Gina: There is definitely something to be said about cultural differences, even between, like, nationalities, not just other religions, but if you were to have a discussion with somebody from another country, you would want to take into consideration their cultural background. 


[00:15:11] Norms for argument and debate, because something that we would think is casual could be extremely disrespectful or humorous and you don't want to not be taken seriously or be considered super rude when you're representing Jesus. So that's really important. 


[00:15:27] Ben: And there are tactics that we would consider to be over the top or aggressive or cruel that actually do have their purpose and their place. 


[00:15:34] And I do think maybe earlier we gave the impression that you should always be kind. And you should always be very generous and you should always be like, okay, I hear what you're saying, but also this, and there's a time and place for that. That is absolutely a way that you can approach discussions and debate, but it's not a universal. 


[00:15:55] Like there's, it takes all kinds to make a world. There's a reason that God made some of us much more obstinate and stubborn and God made some of us more, much more kindhearted and easygoing. There are some people who will just speak directly, and it may sound cruel and aggressive, but when they speak to certain people, that's, they just want to hear that. 


[00:16:13] They just want someone to speak plainly. 


[00:16:15] Gina: That's how it is for Cody. Like a lot of people have thanked him for that. 


[00:16:19] Cody: Yeah, I also, a lot of people think that I'm a jerk because of that. 


[00:16:23] Gina: But they're, like, you're teaching. People with a specific need and if their need is not what you're offering, but like you have other people who do need it. 


[00:16:34] And so it's like, you just have to be cautious getting into it, like making sure that you're communicating in a way that's effective to them. 


[00:16:41] Cody: I do think that it depends on the situation too, like the teaching versus debate type topic. And. It's biblical to not necessarily always be this feathery lump of love too. 


[00:16:56] Cause if you look at Elijah against the Baalites, he mocks their God multiple times when he's watching them cut themselves and perform their rituals, trying to get Baal to light the altar. And it's one of my favorite verses where he talks about maybe your God's out. Peeing. Maybe he fell asleep. So there is some silliness added to it and more aggression is what I'm trying to say. 


[00:17:23] Like that wasn't a nice thing to say, but it wasn't a bad thing. It wasn't wrong. It serves a purpose, but it doesn't always have to be this. It's okay. Maybe he'll come back next time or something like that. 


[00:17:38] Ben: I think the moral of the story is you really have to know the person you're talking to and you have to know why they're talking to them. 


[00:17:45] So if we had to break this down, this first section into parts to remember, it's basically who, what, where, when, and why. Who are you talking to? Is this somebody that you know personally? How did they receive information? And then, why are you talking to them? Is this a debate? Is this just a normal conversation? 


[00:18:03] If it's a normal conversation, it doesn't need to be that heated, and it's not all that important if you win, necessarily. 


[00:18:09] Gina: Also, taking into consideration, is it a salvation issue or not? If it's not, you don't really need to be right and you might learn something from them if you calm down and hear them out. 


[00:18:19] Ben: So that's the what you're discussing. What are you talking about? Is this a rib issue or is this a spine issue? And then also, is this even something that's theological to begin with? Like do you, you are always representing Christ. That's the reality. If you're talking with someone and you're getting into a heated argument about literally nothing, why are you doing this? 


[00:18:38] My dad and I participate in something that my mom calls recreational bickering. And we've been doing it so long that we don't even know when we're doing it around other people and my mom hates it. Because we basically do it to pass the time, and we're showing off to, like my dad and I, when we do it, we're showing off to each other just how smart we are, and how awesome we are. 


[00:18:59] And it's insufferable to everyone else who watches, but for me and him, it's a lot of fun. And so my mom will always disappear, and after a good 15 minutes of recreational bickering, I'll suddenly realize, hey, mom disappeared. Oh, we've done it again. That's funny. But just imagine doing that. But with someone around who doesn't know or love you, if we're doing that as representatives of Christ in front of non believers, how exactly is that edifying or helpful to anybody? 


[00:19:25] Gina: No, you get that teacher's pet vibe that nobody likes. 


[00:19:30] Ben: And that's the where. Where on earth are you having this discussion? Are you doing it in front of other people? You need to be cognizant of that. 


[00:19:37] Gina: And are you doing it online? Cause online you're going to say things that you probably wouldn't say in person. 


[00:19:41] Ben: Absolutely. I think most of the worst conversations I've ever had with anyone has been online. 


[00:19:47] Cody: Yeah. I'm pretty straightforward online and in person, so I don't know. 


[00:19:52] Gina: You get into a lot of arguments. There'll be moments where you'll even like, especially in the past, not necessarily now, but you'll like laugh at their position. 


[00:20:04] And that's made me think. 


[00:20:07] Cody: It's just so silly. I don't know how their mind took them there, but that's it. But that brings. Okay. So we, the target, what's your target audience and the, what was it? Three, four W's 


[00:20:18] Ben: who, what, where, when, and why 


[00:20:19] Cody: there's who in there. Yeah. 


[00:20:21] Ben: There's also how and how often and to what extent, but we won't talk about it. 


[00:20:25] It's just adding, 


[00:20:26] Cody: adding, but okay. What about yourself? What do you. We're told to remain teachable, not to be swayed to and fro by every man made doctrine, but also to remain teachable. If the Bible is made and God breathed and for rebuke and reproof, we're to remain teachable. 


[00:20:49] Ben: So is the question like how do we remain teachable or what do we do to make ourselves teachable? 


[00:20:54] Cody: So that's a, that's a hard mindset for me to take when I'm in a debate or even in general. You think about positions for so long and you put yourself in all of your doctrines in a little box and it's, Oh, this is what I believe. This is what I believe. And being open about those is difficult, and can be dangerous at times as well. 


[00:21:15] How would you recommend remaining teachable, but also not leaving yourself open to be swayed by every man made doctrine? 


[00:21:26] Ben: Yeah, I once heard the expression, I don't know who came up with it, but the expression, they're so open minded their brain fell out. Like, you do need to be cognizant, you're absolutely right. 


[00:21:37] That it's possible for you to literally question everything to the point where suddenly you know nothing. And you do need to recognize that there are certain things that you know. And that's one of the reasons why we've reinforced the five core assumptions so many times. The mere Christianity, if you will. 


[00:21:53] Like the absolute basic base level of Christianity that we all need to agree on before we start moving forward and addressing further points and figuring out more about God and his nature. That kind of is the thing that I would focus on is just figuring out, okay, what do you actually know? And for me, I feel a lot of doubt about a lot of different things that I've learned, even things that I genuinely believe. 


[00:22:16] Mostly because once you start getting into something, you start feeling like the amount of information that you have to get to master it is immeasurable. Like when I went into physics, for instance, I went into learning physics, feeling like I knew a lot of about physics because I didn't know very much about physics. 


[00:22:33] I knew the popular level stuff of physics very well. And then I got into it and then I started learning, okay, E equals MC squared. Turns out that's not right. It's E equals the square root of P squared C squared plus M squared C to the fourth. But when you set PC to zero, then it equals E equals the square root of M squared C to the fourth or equals. 


[00:22:50] And then you see all that and you're like, now, would you like to learn how Einstein figured this out? Okay, someone figured this out. How? What is this? How is any? And suddenly your, your brain is flooded with all sorts of extra questions. You find out so many things that you were taught were wrong and intentionally because the lie was easier to digest than the truth. 


[00:23:12] Not that anyone was necessarily lying to you, but there's just common level knowledge. So they give it to you to digest because it would take too long to explain. all of the advancements we've had since the time where everyone thought something was wrong. And when you take that principle and you apply it to Christianity, the truth is that most of the subjects that we've talked about have been talked about in much greater detail by much better equipped people than us hundreds of years ago. 


[00:23:38] Gina: Hundreds and maybe even thousands of times. 


[00:23:40] Ben: There are so many writers about all of these subjects. Whether you're talking about the Gospels and canonicity, or you're talking about determinism versus free will, all of these things have been discussed ad nauseum for hundreds of years. 


[00:23:57] Gina: Nothing is new under the sun. 


[00:23:58] Ben: Absolutely, you're right. And so it's important to go into this realizing, one, you're not the first person to think about this, and two, there's probably a rebuttal to the thing that you're talking about. I have a 


[00:24:10] Gina: joke, did it hurt when you gave birth to that idea? Because you didn't. 


[00:24:15] Ben: It is incredibly rare for you to come across something in your own head. 


[00:24:19] And conjure it into existence that has never been thought of by anyone else. Much less developed to a point that's much better than what you have. And Cody's actually very well read. For myself, I'm not really all that well read. I get a lot of disparate ideas flooded in from basically YouTube videos I watch. 


[00:24:36] I watch a lot of Dr. Gavin Ortland, uh, A bunch of Dr. David Wood, Sam Shamoon, a lot of different people who have read the Bible and have read a lot of the extra biblical sources, the early church fathers, and have gone into church history to a great degree in one time, in one way or another. And from these people, you can get a digestible version of history. 


[00:25:00] But it's not the same thing that you get if you actually go in and learn it yourself. So while we can, or at the very least I can, present certain ideas with a degree of confidence, the truth is that there are people who argue with Dr. Ortlin, and argue with Sam Shamoon, and argue with David Wood, who know much more than I do, and who know the rebuttals, and then there are rebuttals to those rebuttals. 


[00:25:22] I don't know those. All I can do is introduce the stuff that I, at the moment, accept as true, but I could be wrong. And I think that's one of the reasons why we mostly stick to more philosophical debates. Things where we can use the scripture as a basis and then walk through reasoning for why we would believe it, like Calvinism. 


[00:25:42] While there's a lot of information out there on Calvinism and a lot of people who've written at length, including guys like, contemporary guys like Dr. James White, It's, at its heart, it's a philosophical discussion, and so you're capable of walking through the reasoning and not having to go through an entire millennia's worth of written work to figure out what it is. 


[00:26:03] Cody: Yeah, go read Calvin's The Institutes, that's quite lengthy. 


[00:26:08] Ben: Yeah, despite the fact that I don't, I haven't read nearly as much as you have, Cody, like we're capable of sitting next to one another and reasoning things out. And Gina, I don't know how, I think you're actually even more well read than I am technically. 


[00:26:20] Like you've gone through seminary, right? 


[00:26:22] Gina: Um, part of it. Yeah. Like I haven't 


[00:26:24] Ben: gone through any seminary. So it is very humbling to be sitting next to you guys and doing a podcast on analysis of scripture, despite the fact that I don't really have any major qualifications to do it. 


[00:26:36] Gina: God qualifies the called. 


[00:26:38] Ben: That's fair. But yeah, in answer to the question, because I know this is a lot of rambling, you have to keep things in perspective. And while I do present a lot of the things that I believe very firmly, The truth is that in the back of my mind, I'm always going, yeah, but I don't know that much about this and I could be wrong. 


[00:26:56] Cody: Yeah, I like starting conversation, like when it's not like a spine issue, it's a rib issue, I'll like usually say I'm open to be wrong about my position or if I don't have my mind made up. 


[00:27:08] Ben: It is definitely different if you're talking about one of our five core assumptions. We can't really give on that because once you give on one of those, literally all of the support structure on which you've built your entire life falls apart. 


[00:27:22] That doesn't mean that we're right on the five core assumptions. But when you're starting from the position of mere Christianity and building up, if you lose one of the pillars that supports Christian faith in its entirety, you don't have anything left to build on. 


[00:27:37] Gina: Teachability is not just in theology and religion. 


[00:27:42] So when you're approaching a conversation with a person with a teachable spirit, a lot of times it's less about what facts you're going to learn from them and more like what you're going to learn about your own character What you're going to learn about them and like what skills you're going to learn from the whole thing. 


[00:28:01] So it could be like in Cody's case, he's learning compassion and like understanding and patience. And that's something that I've seen develop in him for the last 10 years. And it's like, you know, Walking away from a conversation, did I add value to that person? Did I demean that person? Being teachable in yourself means being able to evaluate your own performance, and then being open to hear how the other person received it. 


[00:28:29] If you're getting criticisms, and it's not even necessarily the content, It's the approach. That's also part of remaining teachable. 


[00:28:38] Cody: You've pointed that out a lot, because I'm a person who hates small talk. Like, absolutely loathe small talk. 


[00:28:47] Gina: But he'll text somebody, and it'll be like a month since they've talked. 


[00:28:51] And it'll be like, straight wall of text. Like, no, hey, how you doing, or happy new year, anything. And it's, Cody, you gotta care about their personal life. 


[00:29:00] Ben: I'll be honest, man, I feel the pain. 


[00:29:01] Cody: Like, I, I do care how people are doing, but. The small talk. 


[00:29:06] Gina: What's small to you isn't small to somebody else, though. I know. 


[00:29:09] Cody: I get it. I get when you call me out on it, it's like, Oh, crap, you're right. But 


[00:29:15] Ben: Again, I think it's one of those instances where, who are you talking to? Because if you and I are going to message one another, we don't have to go into the, Hi, Cody, how's your day? How you doing? And you don't have to message me going, Hi, Ben, how's your day? 


[00:29:27] How you doing? How are the kids? I don't have any. I forgot. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. And you can just ask me whatever it is you want to ask. Yeah, you put a hi in front of whatever it is you're gonna say, sometimes. But yeah, yeah, we meet all the time. It's like 


[00:29:43] Cody: Yeah, usually once a week at least, and then we eat dinner and we ask how we're doing. 


[00:29:49] Ben: It's gonna, you're gonna find out eventually. If there's something serious, then I'll let you know. And I know for a fact that if there's something serious, you'll let me know. Yeah. We know that by experience now, which I'm very thankful for, honestly. 


[00:30:04] Gina: We're thankful too. 


[00:30:05] Ben: Hopefully we 


[00:30:05] Cody: don't have to let you know anytime soon. 


[00:30:08] Yeah. 


[00:30:11] Ben: God willing. I really hope that's the case. 


[00:30:13] Cody: So there's definitely the perspective of yourself, but also what do you, so we covered kind of both sides of the debate, but the, the teachable side of us, but also what do you look for in a teacher? Like we covered this in a previous episode about church and church leadership, but When you're remaining teachable and having these discussions that could potentially challenge one of your doctrinal beliefs or your rib issues, how do you go about judging whether they are a wolf in sheep's clothing and just trying to get you off of your doctrine? 


[00:30:50] Or not even intentionally, but they believe something incorrectly and are now trying to teach you that incorrect. And there's a lot of this in the church. Gosh, what was the one? I saw the other day. 


[00:31:04] Gina: Oh, you were telling me about it. Yeah. I can't remember. 


[00:31:06] Cody: Oh, it's like Elijah Churches tell you, number 174, or something like that. 


[00:31:12] Gina: We were talking about the prosperity gospel, and it was a verse that had been taken out of context, but I can't remember what it was. My bad. 


[00:31:20] Cody: That's okay. I forget, too. But. 


[00:31:23] Gina: You can't teach good memory. I'm not teachable in that way. Finding a trustworthy leader is hard. Because it requires looking at the world through a lens of suspicion, which I know you are naturally equipped with, but I'm not. 


[00:31:40] Being an immature Christian led me down some weird rabbit holes. Testing everything is important against scripture, against what you know is the truth. Not relying on man's interpretation, but actually studying through a process is helpful. But it's really hard, sometimes, to identify wolves in sheep's clothing, and that's why it's really important not to put all your eggs in one basket. 


[00:32:05] Ben: I think, to know a wolf in sheep's clothing, you need to only see its fangs. And, oftentimes, if you've got someone who's trying to represent themselves as a good leader, but has secretly got good fangs, You'll see that come out in the way that they talk, the way that they're trying to convince you. There are people who argue or discuss in good faith, and you can usually tell very quickly those kinds of people because they care about you, they love you. 


[00:32:30] It's like when I have discussions with my mom, she's not determined to be right, like I am. I don't always make discussions in good faith, and unfortunately, that's just the nature of it. I still care very much about winning, and that's not a good thing. Whereas, when my mom is having discussions, she does care about you coming to understand her perspective. 


[00:32:50] But that's not her main focus. She actually has a few different things in mind when she has a discussion with me. One, she's, okay, I want us to love each other at the end of this, so I'm not gonna say something that's gonna make either of us angry beyond the point that we can reconcile it. Two, I might be wrong, so I'm going to see if I'm wrong by asking a few questions for clarification. 


[00:33:11] Three, I'm going to try to figure out what it is that you want by asking you a few questions for clarification. And four, I'm going to slowly shepherd you through your own reasoning to see if I can't help you see things the way that I do. And finally, if that fails, then you are direct. But you're direct in a loving way, and that's the way my mom approaches it. 


[00:33:32] Almost every single time I have a discussion with her, she asks me a series of questions first, to figure out what it is that we're talking about, what my position is, and if she can help me to see what it is I need to do. And if I'm obstinate and pig headed and can't figure it out, eventually, she's direct. 


[00:33:49] And she tells me exactly what she thinks, in a summary form. And then the discussion can continue on from there, but usually by that point, we're done. You know, I, I feel pretty good about what it is that she's saying. That's the way that a person who loves you, and in many ways my mom is a leader, a person who loves you and is a leader, an important person in your life, will act. 


[00:34:09] And my dad does that too, it's just in a very different degree. Like I said, we do recreational bickering, so it's different. But, you know. He does have a separate mode for when he's being pastor dad type thing. So I would say the first question you need to ask is why is this person talking to me? Is it because they actually care? 


[00:34:29] And if you're a person who doesn't have a lot of history talking with people who love and care about you, then it actually will be very difficult to to ascertain if someone's a wolf in sheep's clothing. I've known quite a few people who, they come from troubled backgrounds, and so when someone starts showing interest in them, that's like a hand that's reaching out, that's welcoming them in. 


[00:34:50] And if you don't have a lot of reference, you're like, this is better than anything I've got right now, so why not? 


[00:34:56] Gina: There are some really powerful red flags I can share. 


[00:35:00] Ben: Please. 


[00:35:01] Gina: Manipulation. It has to be. It sometimes can be very hard to identify manipulation. So there's gaslighting. So if they're making you question your sanity or your reality, that's a really big red flag. 


[00:35:14] Another is triangulation. So they'll pit other people against you and you against other people and be in the middle of it. And it'll end up being a disagreement that they are no longer involved in, but you're involved in with other people. And then you're, there's like disunity. That's a really big red flag. 


[00:35:32] Gossip is a really big red flag. I'm using prayer to like gossip. So it's please pray for me because there's a lot of red flags because they want control. They don't really want to grow you. And so if they're taking the role of God and putting themselves in this very powerful position, then more than likely they're not in this for the right reasons. 


[00:35:56] Ben: Yeah, I think in the end it's actually appropriate to recycle the previous questions we asked. Who is this? What are they saying? Where did they come from? How long have they been doing this? Why are they doing this? If this is a person who's brand spanking new at leadership, you should take everything that they say with a grain of salt. 


[00:36:13] Gina: Yeah, I think even developed leaders, you should be cautious. Regardless of how educated and patient and kind you think they are, they're still fallible human beings. 


[00:36:23] Ben: But if you don't, you guys had mentioned before, there was a pastor who had a criminal history, and suddenly the things that he was saying made a whole lot more sense because you found that out. 


[00:36:34] Gina: Yeah. 


[00:36:35] Ben: You do need to, it is unfortunate that you need to approach leadership with a degree of suspicion, but it's, there's the saying, trust, but verify. It's not that you immediately have this cold, angry, disgusted suspicion with this person. You hope that they're twisted or wrong, and you're going to figure that out. 


[00:36:54] Usually it doesn't take that much to find out if someone actually has a twisted past or bad motives. Like you said, Gina, there's, if someone's trying to actively to manipulate you, you You can usually figure it out if you're not wanting to buy into the lie. And the trouble is, with a lot of people, they actually do. 


[00:37:10] Like, twisted leadership seeks out people who are weaker. Or who don't know any better or who wants to be lied to just as long as it's something appealing. 


[00:37:19] Gina: Yeah, and if you look at it like you don't put your money in a bank that has a history of losing everybody's money, right? You're not going to give your social security number out to a stranger, but there's like this. 


[00:37:33] Issue where all reason leaves people when they walk into a church because it makes them feel so good. And a lot of times they get led astray and disappointed and manipulated and taken advantage of. It's not always by church leadership. Sometimes it's just by another person inside the church. You have to realize that there are vipers everywhere. 


[00:37:50] And that means including at church. So your children, your eternity, your soul, those are things that you should not just trust with anybody. You wouldn't trust your money, your car, your social security number with just anybody. And you can't treat your family and yourself and your soul that way in a church building. 


[00:38:08] It's just not a reasonable decision. 


[00:38:11] Cody: I think you should challenge that, or use the same filter for people that you know, though, as well. Maybe have your guard down a little bit, but I still filter what I learn from people that I respect and love. If that makes sense. I still verify what that person is saying against scripture before I save and dedicate it to memory type thing. 


[00:38:38] Gina: Do you take what an expert says at face value? 


[00:38:42] Ben: More often than I should, honestly. 


[00:38:44] Gina: How do you validate their expertise? 


[00:38:47] Ben: So usually what you do is, you don't just take one expert, you find multiple experts and see what it is that they're saying. That's the whole reason we have the peer review process in the sciences and in medicine. 


[00:38:59] And that doesn't mean that you're actually going to find the right answer if you do that. You're just going to be more likely not to be taken for a ride. I don't remember the exact number. I believe there was like a mathematical survey that was done. And it's something like, at best, assuming everything is done perfectly, 30 percent of all scientific studies are wrong. 


[00:39:19] And that's not assuming any bias of any kind. or any bad intentions. Injecting bad intention and bias into it, it rises to about 60%. So, probably only 40 percent of the things that you base your knowledge of from scientific articles and things like that are correct. 


[00:39:37] Gina: It plays into like, there's an example we had this week, Cody and I were talking about it, and there's this group of women that I'm going to chat with And the question that was posed was, what's your word of the year? 


[00:39:51] So they were all sharing, all the women were sharing their word of the year. A whole bunch of them were saying, my word is this, and I don't really have any Bible verses that go along with it, but I'm going to Google it. Like. If you go to a source that is not the Bible for information about the Bible, especially Google, which is notoriously liberal, and in my opinion, not very pro Christian, you're going to end up with biased answers on websites that are sponsored to skew Whatever it is that you're looking up. 


[00:40:27] It's not a very healthy or wholesome way of getting your information to build a foundation for your whole year on. If you're going in naively expecting that you're just going to get pure results because your intentions are pure, there's a lot out there trying to influence you that you're not even probably aware of. 


[00:40:47] Ben: Yeah, the devil masquerades as an angel of light. 


[00:40:49] Gina: I say it every episode. You 


[00:40:50] Ben: do, and I stole it from you. 


[00:40:53] Cody: No, I don't know. Maybe I'm more skeptical than you both because, I don't know, I look at historical experts and at one point bloodletting was the expert opinion on how to cure every disease and how many times have we gone through eggs being healthy or unhealthy or healthy or unhealthy now. 


[00:41:14] Ben: It's like I said before, there's a 40 percent chance that the study that you're looking at is And one of the reasons that it's statistically wrong, most of the things that you read or write or are proven through scientific studies is exactly that. It's just the inevitable progress of time. You're right, Cody. 


[00:41:32] It's the When you actually widen your horizons, not just to the things that have been proved now, but the things that have been proved in the past. In the 70s, they were talking about global cooling. And the whole world was going to be frozen over and we were going to have to deal with that. And there was the population bomb that was released around the same time that claimed that very soon the Earth's population would explode to the point where we would not be able to feed everybody and prices would be outrageous. 


[00:42:00] And today we're seeing population shrinkage in most developed countries. And we're actually very concerned that we're not going to have enough people. There are a lot of things that were proved beyond a shadow of a doubt and supported by the smartest people of the time. And it turned out to be completely wrong. 


[00:42:17] Gina: And they're being labeled an expert because another expert has said they are an expert. 


[00:42:21] Ben: Correct. That's the trouble with the peer reviewed process, is that the peers are the people who are backing you up, but the peers are also the peers backing the other peers up, and it's just a circle of peers verifying peers. 


[00:42:32] Yes, if all of them do happen to be very smart people who are doing their jobs correctly and don't have a bias, then at best you'll get 70 percent of these right. But yeah, it's, that's one of the reasons why it's so important that we have the Bible itself as our firm foundation, because Throughout all of history, as long as we've had scripture, that's the thing that people have been able to use even if it's the minority. 


[00:42:59] The minority position throughout the time of slavery, there were people throughout all history who were claiming slavery was wrong. It's like there's a reason that, was it William Wilberforce in England? He was able to make such vast and quick progress in terms of ending slavery throughout the world. It wasn't as if that argument came out of nowhere. 


[00:43:18] People for a very long time were aware of the fact that slavery was wrong. And so he was able to marshal support. And at that time in history, it was just the right time and enough people were able to get on. And slavery was very quickly. In the next hundred years basically ended. We still have some of it today to be sure. 


[00:43:35] There's about 40 million slaves today. And sadly, most of them are sold into sexual slavery. 


[00:43:40] Gina: I can have a whole episode on that. 


[00:43:41] Ben: Yes. For 


[00:43:42] Gina: my classes. 


[00:43:43] Ben: Which is, yeah, it's, it's very sad. But most of the issues that we face today, where truth is in question, and we don't seem to know what's right and what's wrong. 


[00:43:54] The Bible actually does provide A very solid moral foundation from which we can build on. And that's been the way it's been as long as we've had scripture. And that's why Christ cited scripture as often as he did. And why the Apostle Paul cited scripture as often as he did. 


[00:44:11] Gina: Thank you so much for taking the time to listen to our podcast today. 


[00:44:15] If you liked what you heard, please feel free to subscribe and share and leave a positive review. And if you would like to connect with us on social media, you can do so on Instagram and Facebook at the Logic of God. You can also send us an email at dot the Logic of god@gmail.com. Thanks again for listening. 


[00:44:35] We hope you have a great day.

Does God Say No? Part 2

[00:00:00] Cody: Hi, thank you for tuning in to the Logic of God podcast. I'm Cody. 


[00:00:20] Gina: I'm Gina. 


[00:00:20] Cody: And I'm Ben. You're returning. Thank you for coming back. And if you are a new guest, welcome. I'm Ben. 


[00:00:41] Ben: After my brother died, there was a period in my life. Where I was seeking the Lord and I for a very long time had a very pragmatic approach to desires and passions, which is why bother with them because God can just tell me what he wants. And so people were always asking me, what is it that you want to do with your life? 


[00:00:59] And I don't know, whatever God wants, I guess. And I didn't want to want anything. Because it felt like the answer was just going to be, that's wrong, and this is what God wants. I was like, just cut out the middleman, just tell me what you want. And for a very long time, I got no answer on anything. Because that's not the way this works. 


[00:01:18] And once my brother died, I really started thinking about what it is that I wanted. And so I was like, okay, Lord, what I would really like to do is become a famous voice actor. That's what I would like to do. And at that time in my life, oddly enough, I didn't have a job. And I started working part time at my brother in law and my sister's salt spa. 


[00:01:41] And I had a lot of free time on my hands. So I was like, okay, I guess I'll figure out this whole voice actor thing. And I really started pursuing it. And I was praying about it. And I felt that was what the Lord was guiding me to do. And I made maybe 450 total. And that was For every 10 auditions you do, maybe one of them people will see, and then out of every 10 of those, maybe one of them you'll get a response to, and out of every 10 of those, one will be a yes. 


[00:02:07] And out of every 10 of those, one will be actually worth what you put into it. It's miserable starting out in voice acting, but I was making progress, I was working hard, and then at the end of it, And for whatever reason, the guy I was renting a room from passed on that his work had some positions open and I just felt like I was supposed to submit a resume. 


[00:02:29] And it wasn't like I was submitting resumes to everybody. It was weird, but I was like, I submitted a resume. And at first they said no, I was like, Oh, thank God for that. I can continue doing the thing that I want to do. And then just out of nowhere, I got called up by the HR of that company. And they said, Hey, we actually really do need help right now. 


[00:02:46] So would you like to come work for us? And legitimately my heart sank when I got that answer, because it felt that was what the Lord wanted me to do. That I just spent the last year of my life, finally being vulnerable to the Lord and lifting up the thing that I wanted. And now God's saying, great, that's not what I have for you. 


[00:03:04] In fact, what I have for you is something completely different. And this has felt like a confirmation of what it is that I thought for years. Why didn't you just tell me to do this? Like, we could have just skipped this year, and all this work, and I could have moved on. At the heart of it, there was the desire that I had, which wasn't wrong. 


[00:03:22] But why did I want to do it? And the truth is, I wanted to be adored. But I wanted to be adored in such a way where there was no real responsibility. Why did I want to be a voice actor? Because nobody knows what a voice actor looks like. Everyone hears their voice, and then, like, what responsibilities do you have? 


[00:03:38] How many famous voice actors do you guys actually know of? 


[00:03:41] Gina: But I like Spongebob, so. 


[00:03:43] Ben: Yeah, but how many people see the guy who plays Spongebob and one, even know his name? And two, know what he looks like? 


[00:03:49] Gina: I can't remember his name. 


[00:03:50] Ben: See? 


[00:03:51] Gina: I used to know his name. 


[00:03:53] Ben: And that's what I wanted. 


[00:03:54] Gina: Yeah. 


[00:03:54] Ben: I wanted people to know my work, but not have any actual connection to me. 


[00:03:58] And then if I wanted to, then I could say, hey, you know what? That character that you love so much? Yeah, that's me. And that would be fun. And there's no responsibility there. There's no danger. But that's not what God wanted for me. That's not, that wasn't the right intent. 


[00:04:14] Gina: Didn't your microphone break at the end? 


[00:04:16] Ben: It did. Literally to confirm that this was what the Lord wanted. At the end of it, my microphone broke and there was no way to fix it. And it would have cost me more money to replace that microphone than it would have to spend the next five years continuing to do voice acting. So there was no point. But yeah, I spent the next several years doing 


[00:04:35] Gina: not voice, doing not 


[00:04:37] Ben: voice acting. 


[00:04:37] And then suddenly. During a period of fasting and prayer. Literally immediately after that, Cody approaches me and he's like, Hey, so do you want to do a podcast? You didn't even ask me that. We were just talking and we show, we both showed up to a Bible study and we were the only two people who went there. 


[00:04:55] And it was a night where there's supposed to be plenty of people there, but it was just us. And we figured, Oh, why don't we just stick around and talk? And so one of the things that Cody brought up was, yeah, I'd like to do a podcast, but I can't find anyone to do it with. I'm like, I have some experience in this stuff. 


[00:05:09] I'll do that with you. And then Gina, our actual one celebrity, the only successful 


[00:05:15] Gina: podcaster, 


[00:05:17] Ben: was nice enough to join us on this little venture and here we are. And it's not that we're all that successful here. We have people who listen reliably and apparently it's not that common for people to have even the number that we have listening. 


[00:05:29] So seriously, for all the people who listen. From the bottom of my heart, thank you. 


[00:05:33] Gina: We love you. 


[00:05:34] Ben: We love you. And the feedback that we've gotten from people has been great for the, for the people that I know and love who listened to this and the people that you guys have talked to. It's been great getting people's feedback and being able to edify even a handful of people. 


[00:05:47] And there was a time in my life where my pride would have said, this is just stupid. This is ridiculous. We're barely reaching anybody here. But at the heart of it, But God's given me a set of gifts and that period in my life was me growing in those gifts and also learning that it's not about me. And I needed to do that. 


[00:06:05] And I would have never gotten to do this with you guys if I hadn't at some point lifted up what I wanted to God and God choose to change it to suit his need rather than mine and not even my need, what I wanted. 


[00:06:20] Gina: And you still get to do the cool voices. I 


[00:06:22] Ben: do on occasion. I'm sure it's grating for some people. 


[00:06:26] I understand a lot of people's fear in approaching God because it does feel like he's just going to tell you, no, what you want is stupid. And I know better. So shut up. But that's not what he's doing. What he's doing is he's highlighting the things about you that are self centered and that you need to work on. 


[00:06:44] And he's highlighting the things that can be used for his kingdom. And he's saying, this is what I want you to do with these. You need to die to yourself. And it's painful and it's hard. What Cody talks about all the time, the process of sanctification. I'm going to talk about that later. Thank goodness. 


[00:07:01] Gina: It's like that verse that says cut your hand off. 


[00:07:03] Ben: Mhm. 


[00:07:04] Gina: Like, sometimes it hurts that bad. 


[00:07:05] Ben: It does. It's horrendously painful. And that's one of the reasons I've been avoiding it for so long. But I wasn't avoiding it because I really wanted to know what God wanted. If I'd known what God wanted, or if I was trying to get to what God wanted, then I would have given Him what I wanted and said, Lord, this is what I want, but use it how you see fit. 


[00:07:24] And that's literally, oddly enough, something that Christ himself prays Gethsemane. Jesus said, it's Matthew 26, verses 38 to 39. Then he said to them, My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch for me. Going a little farther, he fell on his face to the ground and prayed, Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. 


[00:07:46] Yet, not as I will, but you will. Jesus himself had human desires that were contrary to his purpose because he's human and that's part of who we are. That second part of what he said, Yet not as I will, but as you will, is the crucial part. And so if Jesus was afflicted with this, we can't expect to be afflicted any differently. 


[00:08:06] Gina: I feel like if Jesus could just go on that walk to his death. Like I can do anything. I think that's what we have to keep in mind when the Bible says I can do all things through Christ. It's not I can have whatever I want and be rich and drive a Range Rover. It's if Jesus can get spit on and harassed and hated and abused and tortured. 


[00:08:31] I can do anything because of that. 


[00:08:33] Cody: People always want the good, especially in the non denominational movement. You hear moving in the spirit, and the healing, and speaking in tongues, and everybody wants that. And they claim, the disciples had it, why don't we have it? But they don't really look at the root of that issue there and if you want what the disciples had You need to live like the disciples were living. 


[00:08:57] You're not dying to yourself and sacrificing your own wants and needs You're not at the cusp of being murdered every single day for what you're doing How do you think that just because they had it you get it to sitting in your cozy couch? drinking your star schmucks and Living your day. No, that's not how it works. 


[00:09:18] You want to get to the Wonders and miracles you need to live in a just Overwhelming consecration of your life to God. 


[00:09:31] Gina: It's not easy if anybody ever tried to make it seem easy They're lying to you 


[00:09:36] Ben: and I'm with you It does seem weird to me that there are people who will go Oh, yeah, I would love to be able to place my hands on people and and heal them You 


[00:09:43] Gina: But what does that glorify? 


[00:09:45] Ben: Exactly. It's like, why are you thinking this would be, is it because it would be neat? Oh great. I have superpowers. I can heal people. 


[00:09:54] Cody: They just want to be Oprah Winfrey. Bang, you get a car. Bang, you get a car. 


[00:10:00] Ben: Yes. Yeah, I could go out and I could find random sick people. And I could make them feel better, and then I could go home and live my life just as I always have. 


[00:10:08] No! You're expecting that your life wouldn't change in any real way. 


[00:10:12] Cody: And it's with giving up nothing, like, yeah. They, they want to have that, but not to give up anything. 


[00:10:20] Gina: If you look at the story of the Israelites, when God provided, like, the manna from heaven to them, and, like, it wasn't enough. Like, it wasn't enough. 


[00:10:29] They wanted meat, okay? So God gave them meat. Enough meat to kill them. Like if you really look at God's provision. And like, the way that just a random person in our era would receive a gift from God. It's never enough. It's never enough prosperity. It's never enough help. It's never enough healing. It's never enough friends. 


[00:10:51] It's never enough notoriety. It's never enough cool stuff. That's just our culture. And so I think about if, if Ben had the gift of healing and he went out and healed a bunch of people in Jesus name. I'm not even sure that people would care. I think it would be sensationalized in a small group, but it wouldn't be this great, meaningful thing. 


[00:11:13] There's so much more power in the discipleship of a man than in the one time laying of hands, boom, you're done. The long game has so much more value to me than This like instant gratification where someone's, wow, thank you, not thank God, and it glorifies the man and not the person. 


[00:11:35] Cody: That speaks to the world of convenience we live in. 


[00:11:38] If you could go in and, you know, lay your hands on somebody and they're healed, that's a low investment. You're not investing anything into that person. You're taking care of their immediate want or need and the healing. But have no investment in the healing of their soul and Continuing on with the discipleship and caring for that person's soul. 


[00:12:06] You don't give a crap about that person at that point You're just wanting to heal them. 


[00:12:10] Gina: If it wasn't enough for the Israelites to have all of the evidence of God's existence That they had through the exodus and just their provision and God's presence with them and the Ten Commandments And Moses and all of those amazing things like how are we supposed to respond to something like that? 


[00:12:29] If it wasn't good enough for them to have all of those miracles from God himself How are we going to respond to one random man coming up or woman and coming up and saying be healed in Jesus name or Prophesying over somebody which is more like fortune telling in our era like it's meaningless 


[00:12:49] Ben: There's an interesting healing event that's recorded. 


[00:12:52] I can't remember in which Gospels it is There's a story where there's a group of lepers who approach Jesus and they say Lord have mercy on us we're lepers and Jesus says, go show yourselves to the priests. And as they go on their way, all of them are cured of leprosy. And they're all super happy and they all run off happy. 


[00:13:09] Only one of them, which happened to be Samaritan, which were the enemy of the Jews, turned around and went back and gave glory to God. Gave glory to Christ. And bowed down before him and said, thank you. And Jesus notes, weren't there ten of you? Where are the other nine people? You're the only one, looks like. 


[00:13:26] Go your way. Your faith has made you whole. Amen. It's fascinating to me that most of the stories, when you really look at it, where something miraculous happens, where there's a healing, Christ doesn't stress the miracle of the healing, and the focus of the story isn't the healing itself. It's the implication and the reaction of the people after they've been healed. 


[00:13:47] When these guys got healed, only one of them came back. There was only one person who was made whole. And it wasn't because he got his 


[00:13:55] Gina: miracle. 


[00:13:56] Ben: Yeah. It wasn't because he got healed because the other nine guys got healed too. They didn't immediately become Christians. They didn't immediately start following Christ. 


[00:14:04] Only one of them did. And it's fascinating how often you see those stories. And there are points where like he goes to his hometown and he can't do many miracles there because no one has faith. And yeah, there's a lot more that you can look into with that, but. I think the point is that, yeah, you guys are absolutely right. 


[00:14:20] Miracles in and of themselves aren't the be all and the end all. They don't make Christians out of us all. 


[00:14:26] Gina: If that's what it takes to convince you you're a shallow Christian, that's harsh, but 


[00:14:30] Ben: It is the truth. And that's backed up by the parable about Lazarus and the rich man. Where there's the poor man who goes to heaven, and there's the rich man who goes to hell. 


[00:14:41] And then he says, just send me as a ghost to talk to my brothers, and then that'll convince them. And Abraham replies, they've got the prophets, they've got scriptures. They have all, they have the truth already. If that doesn't convince them, a dead man is not going to do it. 


[00:14:57] Gina: No, that's the, that's the, look here, it's shiny, and people get excited for a day. 


[00:15:02] But it doesn't last for eternity. 


[00:15:04] Cody: Is that a parable or is that real? The only time Jesus used proper nouns for Who knows? 


[00:15:12] Gina: Thank you. Mr. Theology. We love you 


[00:15:16] Ben: I don't know cody. Was it real? No, 


[00:15:18] Cody: I don't know. 


[00:15:19] Ben: Nobody 


[00:15:20] Cody: knows. I just like throwing that out 


[00:15:22] Ben: It's a fun. It's a fun thought because he doesn't Use names for any of his other stories. 


[00:15:28] That's just the one time it seems And maybe he was talking about a real event, maybe he wasn't, but either way, the truth remains. 


[00:15:35] Cody: Yeah, it doesn't change the meaning. It's just food for thought if you're listening. These 


[00:15:40] Gina: are the details that Cody notices when he reads his Bible, and it amazes me. 


[00:15:46] Ben: And to be fair, the details in the Bible are often what change things from being interesting to being deep. 


[00:15:51] Gina: Yeah. 


[00:15:52] Ben: Let's go to, can we bargain with God? It seems, because going off of the story that you said, or that you were talking about earlier, your personal story. Yeah. It seems like you bargained with God to an extent. Do you think you managed to change his mind with your request? You bargained with him in some way? 


[00:16:11] Gina: I don't think that I changed his mind. But I think I put myself in a contract. I think he was like, okay, I'm a promise keeper. So are you? And I was not. And I don't know. It's tough to know if we can truly change God's mind. Like I've heard so many different arguments on different prayers that were said in the Bible. 


[00:16:34] And like, I don't know. God's purpose and how he may have said not right now to certain destructive activities, but did somebody really sway him or was he already kind of inclined in that direction? It's like confusing because God is so mysterious and I can't pretend to know his mind and his heart fully because I'm not God, but can we change his mind and can we should we bargain with him? 


[00:17:01] Can we bargain with him? I feel dirty knowing that I bargained with him like it feels like the wrong thing to do 


[00:17:09] Cody: but even look at that Okay, so He said yes, and you ended up failing that contractor, that bargaining chip. And was that for you or for him? 


[00:17:22] Gina: What do you mean? 


[00:17:23] Cody: Did that teach you a lesson about your character? 


[00:17:25] Gina: Absolutely. 


[00:17:26] Cody: Okay, so You see this, and Ben touched on one of them earlier, is Sodom and Gomorrah, you have this back and forth with Abraham and God, Abraham starts, well if there's 50 holy ones would you save? And it's no, and he goes, it gets down to 10, I think is the last number, and it's still no. So did God know that there was not 10 and that Abraham would go there and he could have just left it at no? 


[00:17:50] But God is teaching Abraham through that is this is stuff I've already thought about, dude, they're evil. They're corrupt. It's time for them to go. But he still humored Abraham. And that is what we get from scripture. And you see something similar, I think, and you've talked, I think you've mentioned it before, as well as the 40 years that, uh, The Israelites had to wander in the wilderness and you have Moses going into prayer to save the Israelites because of their wicked ways, but they get saved, but they end up having to wander the wilderness and can't enter the promised land anyway. 


[00:18:31] So they still end up dying and it would have been maybe Moses would have entered the promised land by then, if he didn't have to wait 40 years for what he prayed for to come to fruition of what God had already willed. 


[00:18:44] Ben: Yeah, I think, I do come back to this verse a lot, it's the verse in Esther, that the Jews will be saved even if you don't help but you and your family will die, and who knows but that you were put here for this purpose. 


[00:18:56] I think that when we attempt to make deals with God, we're putting ourselves, locking us into that kind of an Esther moment. God's already set things in motion, and he's going to do things the way that he sees fit. When we try to bargain with him. We're attempting to wrestle control away. And we're saying, Hey, look, here's something that you already own, but I think it's mine. 


[00:19:18] I can, I control this. If I offer this thing up to you that you already own by right, then you should do something for me because I offered it to you. And God looks at that and he says, you're weird. You think, okay, you thought this through. Okay. I'll tell you what 


[00:19:38] Gina: I'll hold you to it. 


[00:19:38] Ben: Yes. This is something I was going to do. 


[00:19:42] Because this is what you asked for. Like you, in your case, you don't know if you would have had Shiloh or not. You probably would have regardless. But if you had approached it with the attitude of, Lord, I don't know what your, whatever your will is, let it be done. And instead, you had a child that God just gives you, not expecting it. 


[00:20:00] Gina: It would mean so much more. I mean, not that Shiloh's mean. No, 


[00:20:03] Ben: she's a beautiful kid and But I look 


[00:20:05] Gina: at the hand I played and I'm not proud of it. 


[00:20:07] Ben: Mm hmm. 


[00:20:08] Gina: Like, I'm not. I can't be, because I was not obedient. I wasn't patient. I was like, I'm ready. Let's get this show on the road. I'm having my last kid by the time I'm 30. 


[00:20:18] All of that happened. She was born two days before my 30th birthday. It's great. She's here. I'm glad. 


[00:20:25] Ben: The only times I've ever seen in the Bible where someone changes God's mind, quote unquote, in a positive way is when they repent. When Ahab repents and sackcloth and ashes. And really, there aren't too many other times I can think of offhand. 


[00:20:41] I know there are other times where people repent, and so There's also Nineveh. Like, Jonah goes to Nineveh and they repent, because they know that they'll be destroyed. And eventually, Nineveh is still destroyed. 


[00:20:53] Cody: I was gonna say, I think that's even a funny story in this conversation, because Jonah prays against that multiple times. 


[00:21:00] God says, you're still gonna do it. Nineveh repents, but what Jonah prayed and how he felt was still how it ended 


[00:21:08] Ben: up. But it didn't happen in that generation. And that's the fascinating thing to me. What God says is going to happen still happens. And every instance of someone trying to change it for their own benefit, I think there's King Hezekiah where he prays that his life could be extended because I think that's King Hezekiah where there's a king of Israel, or actually Judah rather, on his deathbed. 


[00:21:33] And That's it. A prophet comes and he says, the Lord says you're going to die tonight, and he prays that God will spare him. And so there's the shadow on the steps of the temple, I think, that extend, or is it the palace? I'm sorry, I'm butchering the story. But moral of the story is there's a poultice effect that's applied to his boil and he recovers. 


[00:21:52] And he's given, I think, 15 more years to live or something like that. But because he is the king, there's an emissary from Babylon that comes and the king shows off all of his wealth and all of the beauties of the temple and everything. And then, it turns out that because this king lived, he doomed Israel to be conquered by Persia. 


[00:22:13] Because he was an idiot, and he just showed everything off. And if he had just accepted what God had said, then who knows how things could have been. Now honestly, there would have been a point where they were going to be taken anyway. But the conditions for them being taken probably would have been different. 


[00:22:27] And that's the point. The reason I keep pointing back to Esther, God's will be done, but what will happen to you? You can accept it, or you can fight against it, and maybe you'll find some temporary reprieve there, but in the end, it doesn't do you any good. 


[00:22:41] Gina: Last year, last Christmas, we were like, Okay God, no more biological children, we understand. 


[00:22:48] Let's talk about adoption. So, like, we're praying and I was like, okay, this worked for our friends. Let's try this. Just God, it costs X amount of dollars to adopt a baby. Private adoption. If you provide a job that pays that amount, we will save that money for a year. And that will be our confirmation because you've provided this job that is this exact dollar amount. 


[00:23:19] And that will be our confirmation that you have said yes. Couple weeks in, I get a job offer for the exact amount. Job falls through. Door closes. God said no. Three months after, our next door neighbor was adopting through the same agency that we had been looking at. And they got scammed out of, I think, 50, 000 from an adoption scam from the birth mother. 


[00:23:44] Ended up selling the baby on the black market and nobody knows where the baby is to this day. And the agency couldn't do anything to help them, so they lost all this money. They ended up moving away suddenly, they were so traumatized, and if I had forced it there, we could have been in that situation. God saved us by saying no, and showed us that this was not a reputable thing to do with this agency. 


[00:24:12] But if I had continued pushing and not taken his no for an answer, Then we could be really struggling right now because that's a lot of money. Yeah, and it's just a lot of heartbreak. I mean, they had a nursery set up. They were, they had lost so many babies to miscarriage. They had adopted two children out of foster care. 


[00:24:29] They were such kind people. All they wanted was to have one newborn in their life and it just never happened. And it's sad, but God protected us, but I was upset. Like I was heartbroken because I thought this is it. This is our yes. I was like crying I was so excited and it was a no and I'm really happy that I obeyed that because this year has been a huge growth Opportunity for us for me, especially but man, I kept trying I kept asking. 


[00:25:05] So no, no bargaining with God is not honorable. 


[00:25:08] Ben: So it's not, it seems that the answer is both yes and no. Yes, you can try to change God's mind and he may give you something that you think is a concession, but in the end you would have been better off never trying at all. 


[00:25:23] Gina: It's kind of like when you get, you have a kid that's mommy, I want to eat this whole bag of candy. 


[00:25:29] It's not good for you to eat the whole bag of candy. You're gonna get a bellyache. Just have three pieces. The kid sneaks off, eats the whole bag of candy, pukes everywhere. I told you. 


[00:25:42] Ben: We've addressed a lot of tough times that we've been through. Tough times in the Bible. Tough times all over the place. Why does all of this have to be so hard? 


[00:25:51] Gina: Because God wants us to suffer. That's the article you sent me. 


[00:25:56] Ben: Cody, you've got some splainin to do. 


[00:26:00] Cody: Oh, how to get into this. 


[00:26:02] Gina: Do you want to read Teddy's quote? 


[00:26:04] Cody: That wasn't me. Well, I do. I do think yours will lead into what I was saying. To 


[00:26:09] Ben: start with, I have a quote from Theodore Roosevelt, nothing in this world is worth having or worth doing unless it means effort, pain, and difficulty. 


[00:26:20] I have never in my life envied a human being who led an easy life. That's not scriptural. We don't usually include quotes outside of scripture, except G. K. Chesterton and whatnot. We make exclusions for the poets. But, I do think that there's a lot of truth in what Teddy Roosevelt said there. Because honestly, the people that I've known in my life, who I respect the most, were all people who overcame enormous struggle. 


[00:26:51] And I've never looked at a single person anywhere, fictional, real, who had a completely easy life and no struggle at all, and thought, that's what I want. That's a person I want to be like, that's a person I want in my corner. But why is that? 


[00:27:04] Gina: I know this person who has a very good life. Like, very loving family. 


[00:27:11] Has never really been through stuff that I've been through. It's really hard. This is a person in a position of authority. And A church that I respect and it's really hard because she'll ask my advice sometimes because she knows that I've been through some things and it's really hard because she has very little patience and empathy and compassion for people who've gone through certain things because they've made a bad choice or because they haven't had support from their family. 


[00:27:39] It makes it. It's very challenging to have a good relationship with that person, to really respect their opinion because they don't have the experience to back it up. There's something to be said about trials because you come out more mature, you come out having been refined, and you can like then acknowledge that you're never really going to fully arrive. 


[00:28:01] When a person hasn't really had that experience. It's really hard to relate. And I think that that difficulty for me makes it hard for me to be vulnerable to her because she wouldn't understand. You don't have anything in common. I am able to use what God has put me through or what God has allowed me to live through for his glory. 


[00:28:26] And that makes me relatable. And it makes other people relatable to me. But it's really challenging when you've never really had to experience some of the harder things in life, like being a teen mom is one that's kind of isolating. People don't get it. Having miscarriages, people don't always get it. It causes you to respond in immature ways that would not be as loving as they could be if you had educated yourself or had gone through it yourself to begin with. 


[00:28:52] Does that make sense? 


[00:28:53] Ben: I think the real thing is strong. Real love is strong. Real hope is strong. Real joy is strong. And we have tons of charlatans throughout the world offering us counterfeits. And when we look at people who've truly suffered, We see the real thing because a person who can love someone who has mistreated them like going back to my mom and her sisters Her love for my grandfather is still there and her love for her sisters is there now I love my sisters, but they never gave me the same kind of treatment that my mother's sisters gave her Not to say that they were bad people, but they were misled by my grandparents. 


[00:29:32] And in the end there was still wrong things that were done. My mom loves them and they love her. And the that love there is real and it's clear that it's real and they know that it's real and it's a beautiful, strong, real love because they know there is nothing they could do to deserve the love that my mom gave them. 


[00:29:52] Gina: Oh, that's beautiful. It's very Christ like. 


[00:29:55] Ben: It is. And that's how you know it's real. If they never did anything wrong to her ever, and the past 30 years were all rainbows and sunshine, yeah, I don't, I wouldn't doubt that my mom's love for her sisters is real, but at the same time, how real can it possibly be if it's never had any kind of challenge? 


[00:30:13] Cody: It's a very good point, and I think that goes into the testing of our faith. How can you have true faith if that faith has never been tested? And James, I'll read it here real quick. Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds. For you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. 


[00:30:37] And let steadfastness have its full effect. That you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing. And you won't hear me quote Francis Chan too often. 


[00:30:48] Ben: I was wondering about that Francis Chan quote. 


[00:30:52] Cody: I like, in, in one of the studies he has, he talks about the word test in this, and it's something that would relate to smiths and the purification of silver. 


[00:31:03] And you would heat the silver up really hot, and the impurities would go to the top. And, uh, You would throw off that impurity and keep doing that over and over again until you knew that it was pure. And how you knew it was pure was the reflection in the silver would be very clear and you could see your own face in it. 


[00:31:25] And I think that is important. Like into God testing us in the process of sanctification He's gonna keep testing you to make this crap come to surface come to head so that you can deal with it Throw it off. So you become more like Christ. 


[00:31:43] Gina: I really like that. It reminds me of like There's this idea that the burden is easy and the yoke is light when you become a Christian, which gets taken out of context a lot, but how does that fit in with this idea of sanctification and then also life? 


[00:32:03] Not getting what you want from God. 


[00:32:06] Ben: I've always found this verse to be really fascinating. Yeah, Matthew chapter 11 verses 28 through 30 is what Gina is referencing. Come to me, all who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 


[00:32:25] My yoke is easy and my burden is light now it's weird because what we're called to do elsewhere in the Bible is to die to ourselves a Process that sounds fairly painful and hard and it is both 


[00:32:39] Gina: And also be hated by the world and turned from our mother and father and separate families And yeah 


[00:32:45] Ben: He didn't come to bring peace but to bring war brother will be turned against brother father against son Mother against daughter against mother vice versa so on and so forth all the way down the family tree You So, it does seem strange that Christ would say, My burden is light, my yoke is easy. 


[00:33:02] And yet, I do think both are true. Because while you're on this walk with Christ, suddenly you realize that all of the suffering that you have, if you truly trust him, has a purpose. And oddly enough, Nietzsche, a famous atheist, once said, If you have the why, you can suffer any how. You're welcome. If you have a purpose, you can endure pain. 


[00:33:27] God is the ultimate purpose. And He, in every point of your life, through the power of the Holy Spirit, will give you love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self control. And as long as we are earnestly seeking Him, and at times He feels distant and we need to seek Him all the harder because of it, through the anointing of God's Spirit, Despite the suffering, when we choose to trust Him, He gives us peace. 


[00:33:53] He gives us joy. And the times where I've felt the most certain about God's hand in my life, and I felt the most joy, were the times where I was fighting the hardest against external factors. Honestly, as hard as this past week has been, more so for you guys, but it's been rough for me too. These past few days, I haven't been able to sit for more than a few minutes with the stuff with you guys, and my parents moving, and a bunch of other things just all going off at the same time. 


[00:34:25] But, I felt purpose through all of it, and I felt peace through all of it, and it's been a really great week, and I was praying yesterday with my dad. And I broke down in tears, not because I was upset, but because I, it dawned on me, oddly enough, it seemed like for the first time, just how blessed and beautiful a life I have and how fortunate I am that I can be here with you guys. 


[00:34:48] How fortunate I was that I could give you guys an, an avenue to solve at least one of your problems. 


[00:34:54] Gina: We're so thankful. 


[00:34:56] Ben: And thanks to my mom and dad too, they're the ones who offered the car, but to be somebody to me. Who someone else can turn to in a moment of crisis, that's a beautiful thing. But if you don't have God and you don't have a reason, then what? 


[00:35:10] Why would you ever want someone to turn to you in a moment of crisis? What would be the point of it? Oh, someone else is, you know, shoveling off their problems onto you. I don't need any of that. I have my own problems to deal with. But no, not only is God pushing you to seek people out and become useful and try to shoulder their burdens alongside of them, He's giving you the strength to do it, and he's giving you meaning to do it, and that way his yoke is light, because if without it, a fraction of that work would be impossible, it would be unreasonable, it would be pointless. 


[00:35:45] Gina: Arm in arm, like with our brothers and sisters, the burden is much lighter. And when we, like for me this week with the gifts thing, the boxes of gifts that were shipped to us, I took a burden on myself by trying to wrestle with the whole, do I open them? Do I throw them away? Do I need to know what's in them? 


[00:36:04] Do I bring them in the house? Do I give them to the kids? I burdened myself. God had already spoken. I just wasn't thinking. The burden is much lighter having known that he's already spoken. It was such an easy decision from there. What is burden to you? Because that is the defining factor of if your burden is truly light. 


[00:36:24] And if you can redefine those things, you might find that your life is much more enriched than you thought. I'm glad to hear from you that you feel so, I don't know, joyful about where you're at, because it has been hard and I'm sorry. So, like, the kids listen to the little Bible hymns, and, like, this verse, Rejoice in the Lord always, and again, I will say rejoice, they say it so forcefully in this one song that the kids love, and it's okay, they have to say it twice. 


[00:36:59] And it's important that we rejoice, like, to really think about the beautiful parts of every day of our lives, even when we have broken bones and a total trach, and, yeah. The one thing that has been different about this week and this experience for me is just the trust. One of my friends, the first thing that she did was she called me, like right after I got off the ambulance, she called me and she said, don't doubt what God is going to do for you. 


[00:37:28] And I was like, okay, I won't. And that changed everything for me. Just remembering not to doubt it. Even if we get stuck with a bill. Even if stuff gets weird for a few months. I'm not going to doubt it. Because he hasn't let us down. He's only elevated us. He's only prospered us, but not in the way that you think. 


[00:37:51] It's just, Cody and I come from very weird backgrounds. From very little, very little. And in ten years of knowing and dating each other and loving each other, he has grown our lives exponentially. And I have no other option but to rejoice in that right now. No matter what happens, we're alive. We're alive and I'm so thankful. 


[00:38:15] My kids are fine. And I'm so thankful. Turning around in the backseat yesterday, we got hit, and it was like that slow motion moment where you're like, and I turned around expecting that there was going to be horrible stuff in my backseat, because that's where we got hit. And they were fine. I mean, they were screaming, but everybody was okay. 


[00:38:39] I rejoice, because it could have been so much worse. Anything else? Did we cover everything? 


[00:38:45] Ben: Go suffer more. 


[00:38:47] Gina: Oh 


[00:38:47] Ben: yeah. What did you mean by go suffer more? 


[00:38:50] Cody: Go suffer more. We talked about, like, the test and purification and praying and for what you want and all of that, but there's this, and it was like a free class that I did on Hillsdale or something, like anybody can go take it. 


[00:39:06] It's more of a narrative interpretation, no theology really at all, but there's a translation by Robert Alder of Genesis 16. 9 and it is the story of Hagar and Sarah and Abraham and Sarah not getting pregnant. So Sarah gives her servant Hagar to Abraham to kind of circumvent their And if, if I can't get pregnant, she's my servant, so she can act in my place and I'll have babies vicariously through my servant and we'll do that. 


[00:39:45] And it, it worked. Abraham and Hagar got pregnant and she's going to have a baby and then Sarah gets super jealous. And. Basically forces Abraham to kick her out and the Lord's messenger said to her, return to your mistress and suffer abuse at her hand. And the Lord's messenger said to her, I will surely multiply your seed and it will be beyond all counting. 


[00:40:15] And the Lord's messenger said to her, look, you have conceived and will bear a son and you will call his name Ishmael for the Lord has heeded your suffering and the end there. So the Lord recognizes that she's been suffering with Sarah, but also tells her to go back and suffer some more. But there's also this great promise of through Ishmael. 


[00:40:40] It's almost like the Abrahamic covenant coming to fruition through her child as well because he will prosper and it's not if you follow that line, it's different but He heard her and recognized that she was suffering but also told her to go back and suffer more to Have this blessing through her lineage and her son and kind of told her to get over it Suffering is not necessarily something God shies away from or saves you from. 


[00:41:11] Sometimes He'll put you into that. 


[00:41:13] Gina: But it's God's will for me to be healed. It's God's will for me to be happy, right? We heard a pastor say that the other day. Oh 


[00:41:21] Cody: yeah. 


[00:41:22] Ben: The question is, is your happiness contingent on your externals? The fruits of the Spirit are interesting in that they are not going to match with what happens around you. 


[00:41:32] Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self control. All of those things you can have through the power of the Spirit regardless of what happens around you. And that last one, self control especially. Why on earth would you need self control if nothing important is happening? 


[00:41:49] A 


[00:41:49] Gina: man without self control is like a city with its walls torn in two. I've been praying that over my family because self control is the hardest thing for us. It's for Cody and I, for the kids. Discipline and self control are two of the hardest things that we face. The, we have the love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness. 


[00:42:08] We have those in spades, but self control, oh, no, 


[00:42:11] Ben: he saves the best and hardest for last. 


[00:42:14] Gina: Thank you so much for taking the time to listen to our podcast today. If you liked what you heard, please feel free to subscribe and share and leave a positive review. And if you would like to connect with us on social media, you can do so on Instagram and Facebook at the podcast. 


[00:42:30] The logic of God. You can also send us an email at Maine dot the Logic of god@gmail.com. Thanks again for listening. We hope you have a great day.

Does God Say No? Part 1

[00:00:00] Cody: Hi, thank you for tuning in to the Logic of God podcast. I'm Cody. 


[00:00:14] Gina: I'm Gina. 


[00:00:15] Cody: And I'm Ben. If you're returning, thank you for coming back. And if you are a new guest, welcome. 


[00:00:31] Gina: We're taking things in a kind of different direction than we expected. expected this week, because that's just the way that God is sometimes still on prayer, just a different avenue. So like, when we pray, because we're Christians, God always says yes, right? 


[00:00:51] Cody: You 


[00:00:51] Ben: mean God always says yes, he's a genie. There are a lot of pastors who've taken And I would say this is a very common approach in especially non denominational churches. 


[00:01:03] The idea that God wants to say yes, and if he doesn't, or it seems like you're not getting your prayer answered, a lot of it has to do with you. And it's maybe it's not the right time, but eventually God will say yes. 


[00:01:16] Gina: Or maybe you have a secret sin in your life and you need to repent. 


[00:01:19] Ben: Yeah, you could have something just standing between you and God, and that's the thing that's keeping your prayer from being answered. 


[00:01:25] And then, if you just keep praying and keep at it, and you speak boldly, and you pray boldly, and you believe in your heart that God will do it, eventually He will. 


[00:01:35] Gina: Yeah, but if he doesn't your faith isn't strong enough. 


[00:01:38] Ben: Yeah, and that's the feeling I think all of us have gotten at one time or another from a lot of different non denominational churches And I don't even think it's just non denominational churches. 


[00:01:47] I do think it's a lot of Protestant churches, mainly. I don't know enough about the Catholic teachings today to say the post Vatican II era, if that's the approach that they take, but I do get the feeling a lot of Christians are being told that they should be getting their prayers answered. And if they're not, there's something wrong. 


[00:02:07] And that's kind of what we wanted to address tonight. Does God always say yes or does He want to say yes? 


[00:02:14] Gina: Does He even always answer? 


[00:02:16] Ben: Very good question. And I think we've all gone through periods where we've been praying our hearts out and it felt like God either wasn't listening or He wasn't paying attention or He wasn't answering. 


[00:02:26] First off, does God ever say no? Does He respond to every prayer? What do you guys think? 


[00:02:33] Gina: God absolutely says no, and there's scriptural evidence for it. And I think God can respond to every prayer, but His answer isn't always what we expect, and so we don't acknowledge that as an answer to our prayer. And I think Cody made a good analogy earlier with the, you have a green t shirt, but you want a blue t shirt prayer. 


[00:02:55] Do I think that God is going to look at your frivolous prayers and always answer them? No, probably not. That's my opinion. 


[00:03:02] Ben: So what, you said that there are scriptural examples of God not answering prayers. What would those be? 


[00:03:07] Gina: So there's like some really obvious ones, like when David, lusted after the woman and then killed her husband and then had a baby with her and the baby died and he begged God to Save the baby and God did not save the baby. 


[00:03:19] That would be the first example 


[00:03:22] Ben: for that one specifically Nathan the prophet had already told david that his son was going to die and that god was not going to change his mind God is beyond that. He is eternal. Once he has set his mind to something, he's not going to be shifted. And so David went to the temple and he prayed constantly, even knowing that, because he knew that God was good and God was just, and maybe this was a test for him and there was no harm in doing it. 


[00:03:47] And then once his son died, He just, it was like a switch flipped and he immediately just went, washed his face, put on lotions and stuff and he went about his regular life and he said, there was no reason for me not to pray fervently to the Lord, but now it's done. I will go to him. He will not go to me. 


[00:04:04] Referring to his son. In that instance, God had already given the answer and I do think that's still a very valuable thing to point out. There are times where we are given an answer. And we don't like it. 


[00:04:14] Gina: Accept it, yeah. 


[00:04:16] Ben: I think that's a lot. 


[00:04:17] Gina: Yeah. 


[00:04:18] Ben: And I do think that oftentimes where we feel like God isn't listening or God isn't paying attention, it's not that he isn't listening or paying attention. 


[00:04:25] It's that we already know in our heart what the answer to a prayer or a question is. Sometimes we've been told we need to wait. Sometimes we've been told now is not the time and so we're just sitting there asking is it time yet? Is it time yet? And it's 


[00:04:38] Gina: funny because if you look at scripture like god didn't just be like, okay It's been six hours. 


[00:04:44] I'll give it to you 


[00:04:46] Cody: It's 


[00:04:46] Gina: been 40 years Yeah, 


[00:04:49] Cody: how long did moses wander around 


[00:04:51] Gina: a long 


[00:04:52] Ben: time which time because There's the first time he went into the desert and then he went out and met with jethro high priest of midian And that guy became his father in law and he stuck around there until he was in his, what, his 50s? 


[00:05:04] Cody: Yeah, it was a long time. 


[00:05:05] Gina: Moses waited 40 years, Joseph waited 13 years, Noah waited 120 years, Abraham waited 25 years, and David waited 12 years. For what? I'm not sure, but that was on Instagram this morning. 


[00:05:19] Ben: And that sounds about right. All of them were waiting for one thing or another. 


[00:05:23] Gina: Yeah. We don't like to wait. 


[00:05:25] Ben: No, we don't. 


[00:05:26] Gina: Especially when Amazon has same day delivery now. 


[00:05:28] Cody: And even the Abraham was told that he was going to have to wait. The sin of the Amorites wasn't to fulfillment yet. So it was going to be another 400 years. I think it says I'm not familiar. I can't quote exactly, but even that had to wait. 


[00:05:47] Ben: Yeah, and that's actually a very good point. There was a very far reaching plan that God had for the people who lived in Canaan. And that's one of the sticking points a lot of people have. In God's eventual dealings with the Canaanites is that God ordered their extermination and people feel like why would God even allow such a thing? 


[00:06:06] One, he actually removed Abraham from the land and he specifically told him, These people are not evil enough to deserve extermination. I am removing you and your descendants from this land until such time as these people are evil enough. And there's another story that we really shouldn't forget where if there are 10 righteous people in the city of Sodom, I will save the whole place for their sake. 


[00:06:29] Think of how terrible the land of Canaan had to be for God to say, get rid of all of them. And also keep in mind, the Israelites didn't do that. Setting all that aside, we get the idea that, yeah, there are times where we just have to wait and that is tough. But even then, that's still something where God has made a promise, or given an answer, and then you're waiting. 


[00:06:49] Is there an example of God literally saying no? 


[00:06:52] Cody: Yeah, I mean you have Elijah praying to die in 1st Kings 19. 4. He asked God to kill him. Jonah does something very similar. Moses does something very similar. 


[00:07:04] Gina: And he's like, no, but here's an angel, and by the way, take a nap and have a snack. 


[00:07:11] Ben: Well, those were prayers that were made in moments of extreme stress. 


[00:07:14] Gina: Yeah. 


[00:07:15] Ben: Is there examples given in the Bible of people praying for something that would be reasonable? And we would look at and think, obviously God would say yes, and then he says no. 


[00:07:24] Cody: I mean, there's Paul's thorn in his side, whatever that might be. 


[00:07:28] I don't think scripture really answers that. 


[00:07:30] Ben: Yeah, that's 2 Corinthians chapter 12 verses 7 through 9. Therefore, in order to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. But he said to me, My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness. 


[00:07:52] Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me. That's about as solid a no as you can get, and he got three no's on that. And, looking at this, it seems likely that it was some kind of physical affliction, and considering all of the people that Paul and the apostles healed, you would think it would be reasonable that God would heal him, and he didn't. 


[00:08:14] So why not? 


[00:08:15] Cody: I don't know. 


[00:08:16] Gina: Well, the verses kind of hint at the fact that it can be used to glorify God, it can be used to glorify Jesus. 


[00:08:24] Cody: Oh, and there's so many different speculations on this. Paul was the Pharisee of Pharisees, and he could have been boastful if he didn't have this affliction. It's something I've heard before, and there is a A lot to be said about his character. 


[00:08:43] I mean, he's going through healing these other people, and yet he can't even have that healing himself. But he still carries on healing and preaching through that. 


[00:08:52] Ben: And to be fair, in the very beginning of that quotation, it says, Therefore, in order to keep me from becoming conceited. Paul seems to think whether or not he's correct. 


[00:09:02] He does seem to think that the reason the Lord did this is literally because he was a very proud man, and there was a high potential for his pride to overwhelm him. So I think it's a very good point. 


[00:09:13] Gina: That ties in really well with James 4. 3, which is, it says, when you ask, you do not receive because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures. 


[00:09:24] So I think we have to really evaluate if we're praying for our pleasure or for God's glory. Because if we make ourselves the main character in God's story, then we've got our kind of like food pyramid out of order. If we're the top, then we've put ourselves above God. Or if we've put what we want above God, then it becomes an idol. 


[00:09:49] And that's still for our personal gain or personal pleasure. And it doesn't necessarily glorify God. So you have scripture that's explaining that if you ask with wrong motives, you won't receive what you're asking for. 


[00:10:03] Ben: But let's say that you do ask with the right motive. Let's say that you're praying someone will come to Christ. 


[00:10:08] And it seems, at the very least in the moment, like that's just not happening. 


[00:10:12] Gina: I actually read something the other day about that. Ah, it's somewhere in Psalms. But it, it talks about how it doesn't always matter if we pray for somebody to come to Christ because sometimes they're too far gone or too wicked. 


[00:10:29] And I have a situation in my life where I'm praying for somebody, even now, and God has kind of said, you've had enough from this person. You don't have to be involved with them anymore. And I feel kind of absolved from that prayer, because she's kind of proven that there's no, like, she's too far gone. And scripture talks about that. 


[00:10:49] I just can't directly quote it. I 


[00:10:51] Cody: mean, there's a lot on that. There's Paul plants, Apollos waters, and then the growth is to God. So, I mean, there's a lot of, you can, plant and water it and water it and water it, but only God can make it grow. 


[00:11:06] Gina: My most fervent prayer for somebody to be saved is for this person. 


[00:11:11] This is my mother. And it hasn't happened. And I've been praying years, like since I became a believer, I've been praying for her to become a believer. And year after year, she has proven her wickedness over and over escalating. So when God says you've had enough to me, it's okay. I can't shoulder that anymore. 


[00:11:32] So like, I don't think that people are praying that because they believe that the person is going to be saved as much as they probably are afraid for their salvation or eternity. And I think that those are probably the hardest people to convince, if that makes sense. That's a really tough prayer. 


[00:11:52] Ben: And it's interesting you talking about feeling almost like you're absolved, like there's no guilt in not praying for someone. 


[00:11:59] I don't know my mom's side of the family very well, and that's more or less because after my mom married my father and became a Christian, essentially her side of the family just rejected her. Like, she was kinda kicked out. And, for a very long time, My mom was both praying to be reconciled with her family and also for the salvation of that side of her family because they were militant atheists. 


[00:12:24] I mentioned that before, but they used to be a part of the Catholic church. There was a falling out and then they went from Catholics to hardcore atheists. And my mom thankfully was able to escape that when she met my father and then became a Christian. But because it was essentially escaping the control of my grandfather and my grandmother, And then eventually they moved to Florida. 


[00:12:45] That was just, at that point, she was dead to them. And there was a point where, honestly, there are, there are too many points to tell, but kind of calmly needed at one point after we had moved to Florida. Where one of my relatives was having a wedding, and she invited my mom, and also my sister Jessie went. 


[00:13:03] She was completely separated from everyone else who was a member of the family. My mom was on her own. And then there came a point where the whole family, Everybody, there was going to be a family picture. My mom was not invited to be a part of that picture. My sister was. They were trying to make a divide in our family. 


[00:13:20] And it was made abundantly clear, time after time, that they didn't want anything to do with her. And that was all my mom wanted, was to be a part of them. To be a part of their lives again. And. To know that they knew Christ. That was what she was praying for. And at some point she stopped. I don't know exactly when, but about a year ago, my grandfather was in very bad health and the Lord put it on my heart. 


[00:13:43] We needed to go see him. I had seen him once when I was like six, seven years old. And I felt, Oh, I think I know what this is about. I think there's finally going to be some reconciliation here. Like, my grandfather is going to finally, recognize what happened. And at this point, my grandmother had been dead. 


[00:14:01] And it seems like most of the drama was coming from her. And so it seemed like there was finally going to be a chance for him to, you know, going to be the teary eyed come to Jesus moment. And I was praying for that. And I told my mom that I was praying for that. And she said, I think you need to temper your expectations. 


[00:14:17] And I was approaching it from the Protestant. No, you need to pray boldly and you need to really believe. And I'm like, but no, I totally know what this is about. The Lord wouldn't send me up there. For that to ha for that not to happen, and you're going with me, so obviously that's what this is about. I knew what it was about, and then we get up there, and we meet with my grandfather, and my Aunt Kathy Jo was there as well, and it was two and a half hours, three hours of talking, and it was nice, but there were no tears. 


[00:14:45] There was no recognition of any wrongdoing, from him at least, and by the end of it, it was like, okay, it's gonna be just a cordial goodbye. And that's it. And I was really disappointed. And I was thinking, what If there's anyone who deserves a happy ending from this, it's my mom. You guys have met my mom. If there's An angel. 


[00:15:06] There is not a single person on earth who has anything bad to say about my mom, except My grandparents, apparently. And they didn't have any legitimate claims to hate her or be angry with her at all. And this poor woman had been praying for years to be reconciled, and now there's some measure of reconciliation, what, this is it? 


[00:15:24] But, while my grandfather didn't weepily get up and admit that for the past 20, 30 years he'd been a complete fool and that he was going to drop to his knees and pray to the Almighty to save his soul, and begged my mom for forgiveness, which is what I was hoping for, or something like that. What was interesting to me is that my Aunt Kathy Jo, at the very end when we were going to leave, got up and gave each of us a 30 second hug, which is crazy. 


[00:15:52] Have you ever hugged anyone for 30 seconds? Yeah, it was very long. She was not a focus of mine at all this entire time. I was entirely focused on my grandfather. But for the first time, which sadly was at the end, I suddenly realized my aunt felt terrible. She knew exactly what it was that side of her family did, and she believed some of the things that my grandparents were saying about my mom. 


[00:16:18] And then suddenly it was all gone, and she felt terrible, and she felt like she didn't deserve my mom's love. And she was overjoyed at the fact that my mom loved her, and was willing to be there. And to let all of that go. It wasn't about my grandfather. And granted, this was It was a chance for him, sure. 


[00:16:40] The Lord had him in mind too. But it's not just about him. And you don't know why God tells you to do the things that you do. You think you do. There's the obvious answer. But there's more people tied up in each of the decisions that we make than we realize. And I very nearly missed something truly beautiful, which is that both my Aunt Kathy Jo and my Aunt Mickey, who I met later after I'd kind of realized all this, I saw how much they loved my mom. 


[00:17:08] Now they knew what they had lost and they knew exactly what it meant for my mom to love them. And I really understood what the Lord meant when he said, whoever's been forgiven of much loves much. My mom has forgiven that whole side of my family for so much. And maybe my grandfather doesn't understand that, but my aunts do. 


[00:17:28] And my Aunt Mickey is, thank God, coming to Christ. She's on the road to it. She talks to my mom about Jesus all the time now. And hopefully my Aunt Kathy Jo's not too far behind. And because they've been forgiven of so much, that's the avenue. That's the way that they're finding Christ. So yeah, it doesn't seem like it's fair that my mom had to go through years of separation and insults and muck dragging for that. 


[00:17:54] Gina: Yeah. 


[00:17:55] Ben: There had to have been some other way for God to do that. There had to have been. At least that's the way that you instinctively feel. There has to be. There has to be some way for your mom to be saved, other than going through all of the crazy witchcraft and Like, there has to be, there has to be better ways to do all this. 


[00:18:11] We don't know that. 


[00:18:13] Gina: But it's a really beautiful story to prove the point that, like, God's no is not black and white. Because where he says no or not right now to one person or one thing that your heart is longing for, he draws your attention, if you're paying attention, to this other thing. And now through discipleship, your mom has developed this relationship with both of these aunts and is drawing them closer to Christ by her example. 


[00:18:41] And in one way, it was a no, but in another way, it's two yeses. And that's really amazing. 


[00:18:47] Ben: And the whole story, I'm sorry, I got a little off track. The whole point was that you had mentioned there's a point where you feel like you don't have to keep plugging away. When my mom told me that It's great that you're praying about this, but temporary, your expectations. 


[00:19:04] I thought that it was because she'd given up hope. That's not the truth. The truth is that she knew. She'd been praying for this longer than I had. And there was a point where she just understood. My grandfather's made his choice. Maybe he'll change his mind before he dies, I hope he does, but At this point too, I have said the prayers that I felt I should say for him. 


[00:19:24] And I know that I love him, and I know I've forgiven him for whatever it is he's done to me, and worse what he's done to my mom. And that took a lot to do, if I'm honest. But that's all that I can do. The rest is up to him. If we genuinely believe we have any choice in salvation, God's not gonna force him to do anything. 


[00:19:42] Gina: Thank you for sharing that because I know it wasn't easy. 


[00:19:45] Cody: And I mean, family is the, of all people are the people who are supposed to rally around you and be there for you and love you unconditionally. And you have a similar experience, or I know you can relate a lot to that. 


[00:20:02] Gina: Nobody likes hearing that they made your childhood miserable. 


[00:20:05] Cody: Yeah. 


[00:20:05] Gina: My whole family is so offended that I have chosen to use my voice to draw attention to the types of dynamics that I grew up in and how volatile they were, especially involving the occult. And even though my mom is involved in the occult, she denies it. It's very weird because she's not, like, loud and proud. 


[00:20:26] She's very secretive and dark. And she lets people believe what they want, does what she does in secret, and then when she gets called out, she denies it. And it's the same thing with the neglect and the abuse that they put me through growing up. People deny it because it doesn't make them feel good. 


[00:20:46] Especially when you're on a podcast, or in my case, even writing a book. There's this risk of people coming out and saying, that's, her memory isn't accurate. And then you get gas lit, and you get triangulated, and there's a lot of narcissism involved in all of that. And so it's beautiful that your aunts, Have kind of repented of what happened and have built a relationship and I've longed for that with my family and there's been a lot of, okay, God, um, why did you let me go through foster care and get adopted into a family that completely fell apart when I was two years old and have everything happen the way that it did? 


[00:21:23] And then why did I get reconnected with my biological family only for them to reject me when I felt like I was called to evangelize to them? Um, And now my parents, my biological parents are dead. So it's like a lot of, okay, God, you've closed a lot of doors. You said no a lot of times. And I, I kept thinking like, oh, this must be the path and it's not. 


[00:21:46] And a lot of times it's literally just Gina be still. And it's hard because I want to make it make sense and someday maybe he'll give me the full picture of why. But for right now, I'm just trying to be obedient and knowing that he said, you've had enough. I have to accept that because there's been a lot of spiritual warfare going on in our lives this week, just this one week. 


[00:22:12] And so my aunt, we love my aunt. She's my mom's sister. She came to visit us in October and she asked me some weird questions. She was like, would you ever let your mom give your kids gifts for Christmas? And I was like, no. We don't accept anything from her because we're not, you know, On good terms with her. 


[00:22:31] I just don't feel comfortable accepting those things into my home with my children when we're not good. She's okay. And then she went home and she shipped us three boxes of gifts, which she's never done before. She's never been a big gifter and I'm okay with that. I'd rather have less than more because having three kids with tons of toys is really overwhelming, but I just. 


[00:22:54] And she texted me very specific instructions for these gifts and I was like, I feel weird about this. Cody, do you think this is from my mom? And he was like, it kind of stinks of that. And then I was like, okay, I'm going to pray that God tells me what to do with these boxes when they get here. Cause I don't feel like. 


[00:23:15] I should touch them until I've heard from God. So the boxes arrive and the kids bring them into our house without knowing what they are and without knowing that we have a plan not to bring them in the house until God speaks and tells us what to do. So I'm praying and I'm praying and these boxes are sitting in the back of our truck and I start getting sick and I start getting migraines and the kids start having like really weird stuff happen. 


[00:23:47] Ellie had a major behavioral issue at school, which is not like her. And we talked to her about it and she was like, I'm hearing a voice telling me to do bad stuff. And so we prayed over her and anointed her and taught her how to rebuke in Jesus name. Amen. Amen. But like the whole time, I'm like, okay, why is our world crumbling around us as these boxes are sitting in our front yard in the truck? 


[00:24:14] And so I'm like, I get my second migraine. I'm like sitting there and I'm thinking, God, why haven't you told me what to do yet? And And then he's already told you you had enough, like you've had enough. If you believe that this is from her, throw it away. Don't even worry about it. So Cody puts it in the garbage. 


[00:24:35] And I'm, I was thinking like, let's just throw it in the dump, drive it to the dump and get rid of it. But he put it in the trash can in our front yard. Yesterday was trash day. Yesterday our truck got totaled. I just, I don't know if God's providing or if it's an attack. We're kind of in that moment where it's, are you answering our prayers to help us get a different car? 


[00:24:59] Or is this just. the culmination of a week of horrible spiritual warfare. But all throughout the week, it was, I already told you, no, stop asking me about the boxes. Just get rid of them. And I didn't get that until Wednesday. So, I don't know, like that's my example this week of God saying no. Totally different direction than I thought was going to go. 


[00:25:26] Don't know if the truck situation has anything to do with the whole mom situation. Can't blame her for my truck getting totaled by any means. It's just been a really strange week. So hearing that God said no and being able to rely on that and him like speaking to me and saying, like, I already said you had enough, stop worrying about it was very helpful to me because I feel much more peace even after having a major car accident with lots of injuries and a total truck. 


[00:26:03] Um, but if God is telling you've had enough with one person and you're like, okay, I've had enough. I don't have to stress out about this anymore. And then they poke you because that's what people like to do. And God's already said you've had enough. No. End it. Don't try to reconnect it because your emotions will get in your way of what God is telling you. 


[00:26:25] Sometimes we have to sacrifice our parental relationships. We have to sacrifice the things that we want because it's what God is telling us to do. And it doesn't always make sense and we may never have closure as kind of a non Christian. Belief in my opinion, but I don't know. God says, no, 


[00:26:43] Ben: you can go into more 


[00:26:44] Cody: detail, a little bit more. 


[00:26:46] We discussed the packages arriving and it's. dunked a high heaven of something your mother would do. And there's very specific instructions how to open them and they could take out one before Christmas, but they had to leave the rest for Christmas. And this is just the controlling nature of her mother. 


[00:27:04] So that was the first red flag. Then she started to get migraines. Migraines was in a weekly event when we were in Ohio, when we lived close to her mother. And it always happened Transcribed When we were around her mother shortly thereafter. 


[00:27:18] Gina: And these are not like just a headache. I go completely blind. 


[00:27:21] Cody: Yeah, and so when we moved to Florida to, in part, get away from that environment, her migraines started. almost stopped. Like this is the first migraine you've had 


[00:27:34] Gina: in over a year, 


[00:27:35] Cody: in over a year. And your other migraines you've had here in Florida have been after direct contact with your mom or some sort of drama that she's caused and stirred the pot. 


[00:27:47] So like migraines are almost directly connected to her mother. So the boxes being here almost pointed that it's a little bit too much of coincidence for me and I'm not a superstitious person by any means. 


[00:28:00] Gina: The kids had a ridiculous week. Just, I don't even know. It was just, it all came to me at once as I got my second migraine. 


[00:28:11] I was like, Oh, throw them away. My family can hate me. They already do. They don't understand why I don't have a relationship with my mom. Nobody believes me. My younger brother has this belief that everything was fine. Because he was younger and he's the golden child. He's the only biological child and I love my younger brother, but that's just facts and Everybody sees it and my older sibling is transgender and Not living a wholesome life and is on drugs And so they're completely unplugged from our family as well but At least an excuse can be made, Oh, they have problems and they're just living their life that they feel like they need to live. 


[00:28:58] But with me, it's like, I'm the one with kids. I'm the one that became a Christian. And it's like, I'm the bad guy. Kind of like your mom. And it's very weird because we've never been a close family. Now that I'm an adult and I'm living on my own and I have my kids Everybody wants to see the kids. I'll never understand Adults obsessions with children. 


[00:29:21] It's very strange. 


[00:29:22] Cody: I won't comment on that at all. 


[00:29:24] Gina: Why? 


[00:29:26] Cody: Just your mother's vein of 


[00:29:29] Gina: well, that's just yeah, we're not having a demon Podcast episode we're having a God says no podcast episode. 


[00:29:36] Ben: No and it to be fair You Demons and demonic influence and oppression versus 


[00:29:42] Cody: possession. 


[00:29:43] Ben: Yeah, oppression versus possession. 


[00:29:46] We kind of touched on that before. I do think there are probably going to be people listening and think, Oh, this is all very superstitious nonsense. I've dealt with enough of this stuff over my life and I haven't dealt with it a lot. But I encountered enough of it when I was very young, and I've encountered enough of it throughout my life. 


[00:30:05] to know that it's very real and it's not something you mess with ever. 


[00:30:10] Gina: God doesn't, like, God doesn't tell you not to do something because it's illogical. Like, he doesn't say, don't flap your wings and jump off the roof and try to fly. Like, he says, don't mess with the demonic for a reason. It exists. He's a God of logic and order. 


[00:30:31] So if he's telling you not to do something or that things do exist, you should take his word for it. 


[00:30:36] Ben: And to be fair, there are some people who would say he tells us not to do things like consult horoscopes and take drugs and stuff because that's damaging to us or it's illogical or irrational and so those are things we should get rid of. 


[00:30:49] And okay, that may be a fair point in a sense. But there's a reason that all mediums and spiritists and witches and sorcerers were expunged. From Israel. Yeah, that's not something that you ever want to mess with at all, and I've seen enough interviews of former mediums and former spiritualists and former witches, and whether or not you think that all these people are honest about everything, whatever. 


[00:31:17] But I've seen enough of it and seen the commonalities between all the stories to know that kind of evil is infectious. And it doesn't only affect the people who are dabbling in it, it affects the people around them. Definitely. 


[00:31:29] Gina: Definitely. 


[00:31:31] Ben: And so there's a reason why God would tell you no, and there's a reason why it would affect you, even if you're not involved in it. 


[00:31:39] Gina: Like, I, I had the conviction to not allow it in my home. And it stayed at the front porch, and then it stayed at the, in the truck, and then it came back to the front porch for a minute because we were delivering furniture to someone. But, like, under no circumstances was it to enter my house. That was very clear to me as soon as I found out they were coming. 


[00:32:00] And just knowing that they were at the front porch and having everything happen the way that it did. Oh, and I got an email from her. That was another reason why I believed that the boxes were from her. She sent me an email that was very strange. Her language was very strange. It was like talking about the divine one and stuff like that. 


[00:32:21] So trying to be cordial and loving, but like very cultish and just strange. So knowing all of the things that happened this week, I was like, there's a human part of me that was like, what do I do if I throw these away? What if there's like family heirlooms in there or something from my uncle or whatever, you know? 


[00:32:43] Cause my uncle died and it's my aunt's first Christmas without him. Maybe she's feeling nostalgic and felt like sending gifts. I don't know. I could be completely off base. And so there's that doubt in me. And God was like, you know what, if it hurts her feelings, it hurts her feelings. Like I said, no, it's not coming in your house. 


[00:32:59] You've had enough. So that's, wasn't the example of God saying no, that I thought I was going to use right now. But. It was loud, heard loud and clear, and even he agreed. 


[00:33:10] Cody: Yeah, I'm probably the least superstitious person anybody knows. Man, it's really raining. 


[00:33:19] Gina: What a beaut. 


[00:33:20] Cody: What a beaut. 


[00:33:21] Ben: What a beaut. There's a lot of benefit to having not very superstitious people, because when not very superstitious people say, yeah, something weird's happening, then you know something weird's happening. 


[00:33:30] Gina: He literally said, your mom's a demon. And I was like, I wouldn't go that far. 


[00:33:35] Cody: That was before, I didn't say she was a demon. I said she was evil. 


[00:33:38] Gina: Oh yeah, okay. And then you said she might be possessed. 


[00:33:41] Cody: No. 


[00:33:42] Gina: You did say that. I did not say she 


[00:33:44] Cody: might be possessed. I said she plays with stuff that she shouldn't. 


[00:33:47] Gina: I don't. 


[00:33:48] We've had a lot of talks. 


[00:33:49] Ben: All right. So going back to the subject of prayer. No, it's okay. This is actually good stuff. And it's nice. These are all questions that do need to be addressed. So it's best to address them as they come up. Plus this is all relevant to what's happening right now. 


[00:34:03] Gina: So 


[00:34:03] Ben: I don't think the Lord would have us be doing the podcast and then not talk about any of the things that have been happening to you. 


[00:34:09] Cody: Now your day to day doesn't matter. Stick to the script. 


[00:34:13] Gina: Listen, we wake up and we pray, we read our Bible, we're perfect. That 


[00:34:17] Cody: first 15, I do 5 minutes of prayer, I do 5 minutes of Bible, and I do 5 minutes of worship. 


[00:34:23] Gina: But I don't wait to hear if God says yes or no. No, he only gets 15. God always says yes to me. 


[00:34:30] Ben: Are there reasons for why God sometimes seems silent? We kind of addressed this before. Is it just always that he's given us an answer and we're just We keep asking, or is it that there's sin in our life that's separating us from him? Is there something more to it than that? 


[00:34:45] Gina: I really love, so I have this friend, her name's Adriana, and I went through a season last year where I was like, God's not talking to me. 


[00:34:53] Like I can't hear him. I don't know where he went. And she was like, what happens when you're taking a test? What does the teacher do? I was like, I don't know. She said, they sit silently and they wait for you to take the test. And I was like, no, I'm not being tested. Of course I was being tested. God wanted to see what I was going to do. 


[00:35:15] If I had self control, if I was going to like read his word and see what scripture says about it. Sometimes we have an answer. And it takes more than just, Oh God, put in my heart, and I'm convicted. There's actual scripture. And there's examples from God that you already have at the tips of your fingers. 


[00:35:34] And I was not pursuing that. Well, of course I wasn't hearing from God. You're smirking. 


[00:35:40] Cody: That's good advice. No, I was just thinking, the tip of my fingers. Which 


[00:35:44] Gina: is now shattered. 


[00:35:45] Ben: In terms of being silent while you're being tested, do you think there's some kind of interplay between that and the divine hiddenness of God? 


[00:35:55] That this is something he has to do in order for us to be able to choose, or for our virtue to actually mean something? 


[00:36:02] Gina: Definitely. 


[00:36:03] Cody: Absolutely. If he was with you every step of the way, I mean, which he always is, even through the book of Job, you see his presence with Job throughout everything and knowing what's going on to Job throughout everything, but if he was there nudging Job along, Every single step of the way, it wouldn't have as much weight, it wouldn't glorify God as much if Job couldn't hear from God, was lamenting and going through all this, and there's dead silence from God, but he's still turning to God. 


[00:36:37] There wouldn't be as much of an impact if God was there, like, here I am Job, I'm still with you, don't worry. 


[00:36:44] Gina: And you have to make it personal, because that's a Bible story, but like, how many people do we know who have seen, gets a choice? Whether you go to God and glorify Him even in your pain, or you turn from God and you say if God really loved me, He wouldn't have allowed this. 


[00:37:00] It's not just Job in the Bible who's awesome. It's not like that is a choice. 


[00:37:05] Cody: Yeah, so there was a moment with Ellie yesterday where I was with her, or no, was it Ellie or Shiloh? I can't remember, but we had just totaled our truck, so we were taking the kids to school, some guy pulled out in front of us, and we hit him. 


[00:37:22] Terrible wreck. Girls were terrified 


[00:37:25] Gina: all airbags out 


[00:37:26] Cody: all airbags truck and car and everything was totaled Gina was taken away to the hospital and We're just sitting there and the kids are just terrified. So after all of that calms down. I was driving and Sitting with the girls and Ellie's like, why does this happen or something like that? 


[00:37:47] And it could have been a lot worse. And I'm not trying to pat myself on the back by any means, but we have been listening to this song lately with the girls called it's a beautiful day. And it says, thank you for rain. Thank you for sunshine. I thank you for joy. And I thank you for pain. And I pointed that out. 


[00:38:07] And she's, Oh, I never thought about that. 


[00:38:09] Gina: You can make me cry. 


[00:38:11] Cody: And she's like, yeah, we're still alive. It could have been a lot worse. I could have broken my arm or, you know, I could have, my head could have been bleeding. And then she went on with this list and it was like, it just lit up in her hand and then she starts singing it like, and it was just beautiful. 


[00:38:27] But even if you're going through crap. You still have God in the end, and in that moment she got it, she's, Oh, God's still good, like, He's still got my back, I'm still here, I still have my family, and I know that's not the case for everybody, not everybody's that fortunate, but I think that's one of the main stories of Job, is even through all of the crap, God is still there. 


[00:38:52] He's not just, 


[00:38:52] Gina: He's not just there, like, He's still good, He's still perfect, He's still loving. Thank you for telling me that now. That's beautiful. 


[00:39:02] Ben: So that definitely goes to building character and loving God and worshiping him and leaning on the lessons that we've been taught. But what about when you have a genuine desire in your heart that seems like it's good, but then either God seems to be taking you away from that, or he seems to be rejecting that. 


[00:39:22] Like, why would God even give you that to begin with? Something that seems to be, that's not bad on its face, and that for many people is good. Why would he either reject that or be angry with you seemingly for having that? And then pursuing it. 


[00:39:38] Gina: Can I tell a story? 


[00:39:39] Ben: Please do. 


[00:39:41] Gina: I mean, in Genesis it says be fruitful and multiply, right? 


[00:39:45] Mm hmm. So like, we get married and I want to be fruitful and multiply and then God's like, eh, not yet. Having children was really hard for Cody and I. Didn't expect that to be a problem in our lives because I was a teen mom and didn't seem to have any trouble having children. And we had Ellie and everything was great. 


[00:40:05] It was like, ideal, perfect, like full of joy. And then she was eight months old and we started having miscarriages. And we had three of them, and then I was completely infertile. And I kept thinking, it is a good thing to want children. Like all of these pastors keep telling me this is a godly thing to want as a wife, but I just kept feeling like the answer was no. 


[00:40:30] We moved away from Ohio, and we started over in Florida, and I found some doctors who were willing to help me. But. I had to take matters into my own hands a lot to have Shiloh. I had to go on a lot of medications. We didn't do IVF, we didn't do any kind of fertility treatments. 


[00:40:49] Cody: And you were clinically diagnosed as infertile by multiple doctors. 


[00:40:53] Gina: Yeah, I wasn't ovulating at all. So it was impossible to get pregnant without IVF. Shiloh is a miracle, but I still Like looking back, I did take matters into my own hands quite a bit. I called the 12 different doctor's offices. I forced the doctor's offices to do the protocol that I thought I needed and it worked. 


[00:41:11] I had Shiloh and I bargained with God. Like I said, God, if you give me one more baby, I will never ask for another baby again. Like Shiloh's born and then she's like probably seven months old and I start wanting another baby. And it's really confusing because I promised God that I wasn't going to ask for it, but my heart wants it. 


[00:41:34] And God gave me Shiloh and it felt like that was his answer to my bargaining. And it was really confusing. I had a lot of pastors Who would tell me, like, don't limit what God can do, and don't put God in a box, and how dare you? Through Christ you can do anything, and, like, people even yelled at me, because I was like, I got my tubes tied, because that was what the doctors advised, and even though I really want more kids, it'll be okay, and I would try to kind of brush it off. 


[00:42:04] Even though I really wanted more kids, I still do. And I had so many pastors giving me confusing shame talks. And then this year I started having really weird hormone problems. And like basically my hormones have me in a weird pre menopause phase, which is basically It's like burning the city down in a way. 


[00:42:27] God, stop asking. It's done. You got what you wanted. I don't know what to tell you. And that's been like my story of, it looks good. It's in the Bible that there are women who wanted babies and they got their babies and then they lived happily ever after. And you can't really find a story in the Bible of a woman who got told, no, you can't have a baby. 


[00:42:46] But you also really don't find a story in the Bible where there's this faithful, godly woman who I, I, idolized having babies and put it above God and then got mad at God when she didn't get what she wanted and bargained with God and took matters into her own hands. And so it's all about like your real intentions. 


[00:43:04] Are you wanting that honorable thing because it's what you just want and you think it's going to make you happy and it's going to solve all the problems of your life or? Do you want it because it's honorable to glorify God through being fruitful and multiplying, which is not limited to just having children. 


[00:43:22] So I don't know if that answers your question, but to me, if you're putting what you want over your relationship with God and you're obsessing over it and you're studying having the thing that you want over having a relationship with God. He's not going to give it to you. He didn't give it to me. And he knows my habits well enough to know that if he doesn't fully take it away from me as an option, I'll keep wanting it, and it's sinful. 


[00:43:51] It's idolatry. And I fully admit that, and I have had to be very cautious with how I ask for things to God and what my intentions are, and saying no to myself, because it's not honorable. It sounds honorable, but it's not honorable. What do you think? Do you have an idolater for a wife? 


[00:44:09] Cody: I am the least of these. 


[00:44:11] Gina: We could take it Buddhist and say I am but a bug. 


[00:44:15] Ben: There is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting children, and it is true, that's part of the human imperative, that's how we continue to exist. And a big part of being fruitful and multiplying is having children. And when you look at Abraham and Sarah's story, there was a point where Sarah felt horrible about not having any children. 


[00:44:37] And then she had Abraham sleep with her slave Hagar. And then that's how we got Ishmael. And it was an attempt to try to get around what it seemed like God was setting up. And it didn't work out very well. As for your own personal story, do you think, at the heart of it, God is saying no because he has something else planned for that feeling you have, or is it that he's saying the feeling you have is wrong? 


[00:45:02] Gina: God has basically said to me, there are so many children that are on this earth, adult children of God and then just kids that are in need of discipleship, of prayer, of love, of nurturing, of whatever a mother can offer a child. I have enough. I need to be content with what he's given me in biological children and he's kind of put some different things on my radar in terms of motherhood that have been very moving and selfless. 


[00:45:41] They forced me to be selfless. There's something very gratifying about holding your own baby, nursing your own baby, just looking at this thing that You think you made, it's not, it's like you, you biologically created it, but God really created it. Right. It's very gratifying. It's very self serving, but then they get older and they turn 12 and then it's, I don't really like you anymore. 


[00:46:06] Um, and God said, first of all, that I have three sons that will marry my daughters. I've been very intentional about praying for them. Because I never knew to pray for my spouse, I wasn't a Christian before I knew Cody. I never prayed for him, and I wish I had, because he could have used my prayers. But also, now I pray for my future sons. 


[00:46:30] I also have been connected with some different people in the community that need a mother figure who, I have a girl who got estranged from her mother because she had a baby out of wedlock just like I did. And so we've been mentoring them and helping them and making sure that they don't feel alone. And that's been a form of being a mom. 


[00:46:52] We've been helping other foster families in the area take care of their foster kids and just provide like a meal or some clothes or whatever we can come up with. So God has shown me that there are honorable ways of satisfying the desire. And honestly, If I evaluate my desire, it's not, like, I want to have more children, and that's okay. 


[00:47:18] But I think I want to have more children because I had a really bad childhood, and I'm adopted, and my biological family is very dysfunctional and messed up, and I think there's a part of me that believes that if I can have this big happy family. and pop out all of these babies, I'm going to prove something. 


[00:47:37] And I don't have anything to prove. I need to prove myself to God, not to people. And just being obedient to him saying, I have children on this earth that are not okay, and you need to help them. Your kids are good. My babies that passed away, they're good. They're with him. They don't need me. These kids need me. 


[00:47:57] Whoever, He puts in my path, they need me and at the end of my life, the only thing that's gonna matter is if I showed Christ's love. And I wasn't showing Christ's love, longing for more kids. I was being very self centered and self focused and it did not serve the Lord at all. And I feel so bad for anybody that's struggling with that desire to have more kids or have any kids. 


[00:48:22] I know so many people in that weight and it's so hard and there's no promise that God is going to answer your prayer the way that you want. That's the worst. Like you can't promise a spouse, you can't promise a baby, you can't promise money. There's just some things that as like a prayer warrior, you can't promise. 


[00:48:41] Thank you so much for taking the time to listen to our podcast today. If you liked what you heard, please feel free to subscribe and share and leave a positive review. And if you would like to connect with us on social media, you can do so on Instagram and Facebook at the logic of God. You can also send us an email at main dot the logic of God at gmail. 


[00:49:03] com. Thanks again for listening. We hope you have a great day.

Should We Pray to Mary?

[00:00:00] Cody: Hi, thank you for tuning in to the Logic of God podcast. I'm Cody. 


[00:00:21] Gina: I'm Gina. 


[00:00:22] Cody: And I'm Ben. If you're returning, thank you for coming back and if you are a new guest, welcome. 


[00:00:40] Ben: So we've addressed the dead generally, we've addressed the saints or Christians, if we can pray to them. It seems that it's not the worst thing ever. It's not good. But at the very least, you can understand why someone would pray. To our brothers and sisters in Christ who are in heaven, because you just want them to pray for you. 


[00:00:58] And I can see how that's done in such a way where it doesn't threaten salvation. It may be a poorly conceived thing. It may not be the wisest thing, and it may open you up to influence that shouldn't be in your life. But it's not necessarily something that knocks you out of salvation. Can we all agree on that or not that it can't 


[00:01:17] Gina: slippery slope? 


[00:01:19] Cody: Yes slippery slope because at this point if it is Classified as idolatry, which I won't confirm or deny I personally think it is but I'm not gonna scream it from the rooftops of Catholics none of them are going to heaven because they're committing idolatry if they pray to Saints I don't think that but You At what point does the Hinduism aspect come in? 


[00:01:43] They have these thousands of gods, and you know, if they just put Jesus higher than the rest of them, then they're 


[00:01:48] Ben: good, right? Let's put it one other way. Let's say that there's a person going out to a grave site and just talks to the person who's dead. 


[00:01:57] Gina: That's not prayer. 


[00:01:57] Ben: Sure. But there, I think, I have no doubt that there are some Catholics who view it as much the same way. 


[00:02:02] Gina: And I, so like, I want to use my uncle's death as an example of that. Yeah, 


[00:02:05] Ben: please. 


[00:02:06] Gina: Because he had a Catholic mass funeral. And there were some things that my aunt told one of our daughters that was like, no, that's not actually true. So we have a six year old and she was told, I know you miss him. I know it's sad. 


[00:02:21] If you talk to him, he can hear you. He can't. We've had that conversation with her. She's had to go through grief counseling. She watched him die. So it was really traumatic for her. And she's been extremely emotional about the whole thing. And we've had to be really straightforward with her. This is what happens when people die. 


[00:02:38] They cannot hear you. You cannot pray to them. You have to pray to God. You have to pray to God to comfort you. And you have to pray to God to support our aunt who is grieving and saying things that aren't necessarily true. It's just, it's a very slippery slope to go from You can talk to him, he can hear you, to then you can pray to him to pray for you, and then suddenly it's like you have this like wedding cake of different tiers of different layers of power, and it becomes very pagan. 


[00:03:11] Ben: Yeah, I agree. There is absolutely great danger and great potential for issues to form. Not that it automatically will for every single instance. And I do think there are people protected by ignorance here who don't understand what they're doing, who don't put that much effort or emotion into what they're doing. 


[00:03:29] Or if they are, they're treating it more like literally someone just talking at a grave site. And it's just, they're slapping the word prayer on it without having any understanding of what it is, but ultimately they still just pray to God. I can conceive. of situations where that's the case. And at the same time, I also can understand why someone would do it. 


[00:03:49] I can empathize with that feeling. Moving on to praying to Mary. What are your guys thoughts on Mary? Now that we've moved on to the saint, from the saints, from people we may know, or even from great people. Historical figures who we're praying to, praying specifically to Mary. How do you guys feel about that? 


[00:04:04] Cody: So if we, and we're going to stay in the realm of just prayer to Mary, not the, the belief of perfection. 


[00:04:15] Gina: There are two camps I think for this type of prayer. There is the Catholic version and then there's this like. twisted spiritualism thing going right now that's in the same vein and kind of copied from this Catholic tradition where it's, you can pray to like a female God or like mother father God, or all of these different kind of like out there theories about how, There's female presence in heaven and different authorities and all of that. 


[00:04:51] So it gets really twisted really quickly. And especially with new age spiritualism, this mirrors that. We're specifically talking about prayers to Mary in the Catholic church, not a female entity in heaven that is not Mary. 


[00:05:09] Ben: So, unfortunately, there may not be enough of a distinction between the two. I 


[00:05:13] Gina: know. 


[00:05:14] Ben: But we'll get to that. I do think that there are a lot of Catholics who, again, they're protected by their ignorance here. They don't really know what they're doing. They're essentially viewing Mary as just another saint. They're not thinking about the words that they're saying. Sometimes they're in Latin, so they don't even know what they're saying. 


[00:05:30] They just think, okay, I'm praying to someone who brings my prayers before God. My mom, she went to a Catholic school and one of the nuns there explained it like this, that you come before God and your prayer is like an apple and it's the best apple that you have. It's the best you can do. But there are blemishes on that apple. 


[00:05:47] There might be a worm or two in there. And what Mary does is she takes that apple and she cuts out all the parts in it that aren't good, and she then presents that before God. And it's a beautiful, wonderful, nicely cut up apple. That's easy for him to take in. 


[00:06:00] Gina: Is that like when news media gets censored, or? 


[00:06:05] I'm asking for a fact. 


[00:06:07] Ben: Wow, we just got political real quick. So I, I don't know that I would call it exactly that, but even that, when I was looking around, again, at the different apologist websites for this, what I'm about to read is an excerpt from an article that was written by Father James Goodwin, and it's titled, Why do we pray to Mary and the saints and have several devotions? 


[00:06:30] Why do we pray to Mary? This is probably one of the most frequently asked questions and is often a focus of criticism. Perhaps the place to start is the word. Pray. In English, the word pray means simply to ask. It does not mean worship. Many Protestants equate the two terms, but they are not the same. In Catholicism, the word worship, or adore, is latria. 


[00:06:53] This is the adoration given only to God. Catholics do not worship Mary as a goddess, and we do not consider her divine. She is a human just as we are, but she was chosen by God to be the mother of Jesus, who is God with us. Therefore we call her mother of God. We give her what we call dulia, which means honor or venerate as in the command to honor your father or mother. 


[00:07:17] When we ask her to pray, we are asking her to pray for us. St. Paul recommends intercessory prayer for others and such prayer does not end when someone dies and goes to heaven. Saint James wrote The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects. Those in heaven can and do pray for us. That includes all the saints. 


[00:07:38] We consider them to be our elder brothers and sisters in Christ who constantly pray for us before the throne of God. Praying to Mary and the saints is scriptural and part of Christian tradition all the way back to the early church. One of the earliest prayers dates to the 3rd century. Mother of God, listen to my petitions. 


[00:07:57] Do not disregard us in adversity, but rescue us from danger. In the catacombs, there are inscriptions asking for the prayers of the saints Beneath St. Peter's Basilica was found the inscription, Peter, pray for the holy Christian men buried near your body. Thus, we see devotion to a saint, prayer to a saint, and prayers for the dead, all common practice in the early church. 


[00:08:18] Now, that's a pretty good summation of the general vibe that I've gotten from most of the Catholic answers, and I think it's a pretty packed up, succinct one. They don't believe that they are worshipping Mary, they believe they are just asking her for help. That's the modern Catholic view, and I want to stress that because in a little bit we're going to see this isn't actually the way it's always been. 


[00:08:37] But going from the modern Catholic view, it's much the same as the saints. They're praying to her just like they're praying to the saints. It seems as if we haven't gone anywhere yet, right? We're literally just talking about the same thing we just talked about. Yeah. And we could just copy and paste our previous feelings about this from the saints to Mary, right? 


[00:08:55] But what are some of these prayers? that they pray to Mary. Do you 


[00:08:59] Cody: want to read yours or Doug? You go first. So I'd like to lead this with, you know, an address from Pius XII. Furthermore, the sacred liturgy, which acts as a faithful reflection of traditional Doctrine believed by the Christian people through the course of all ages, both in the east and in the west has sung the praises of our heavenly queen and continues to sing them. 


[00:09:29] He also continues in this same area. The blessed Virgin sitting at the right hand of God to pray for us is hailed by another writer. of some of the same area in these words, the queen of mortal man, the most holy mother of God. 


[00:09:44] Gina: So, it's saying she is seated at the right hand of God, not Jesus. 


[00:09:48] Ben: Correct. Ben, is this from the Apostolic Constitution of Pope Pius XII, the defining dogma of the Assumption November 1st, 1950? 


[00:09:57] Cody: It's the proclaiming the queenship of Mary. Yeah. October 11th, 1954. 


[00:10:05] Ben: Yeah. So there was another document that was released in November 1st, 1950, and that was Munificentissimus Deus, defining the dogma of the assumption. Sorry, folks, I'm going to cut this out. But there was a long pause as I was trying to figure out the Latin there. 


[00:10:19] I was going to say, do I need to try the Latin? You probably do. But this is, uh, numbers four, five, and six from that document. I won't read all of them again because I've been reading for a while, and I'm sure this is getting dry, but it's very important that we get these points across, exactly what the historic position of the Catholic Church is on this, and why it matters to the Catholic Church today. 


[00:10:41] Number four, that privilege has shown forth in new radiance since our predecessor of immortal memory. Pius IX solemnly proclaimed the dogma of the loving mother of God's immaculate conception. 


[00:10:53] Gina: Mary was a virgin. 


[00:10:55] Ben: No, that's not what they mean by immaculate conception, but we'll get to that. These two privileges are most closely bound to one another. 


[00:11:03] Christ overcame sin and death by his own death, and one who through baptism has been born again in a supernatural way has conquered death and sin through the same Christ. Yet. According to the general rule, God does not will to grant to just the full effect of the victory over death until the end of time has come. 


[00:11:22] And so it is that the bodies of even the just are corrupted after death, and only on the last day they will be joined, each to his own glorious soul. Now God has willed that the blessed Mary should be exempt From this general rule. So for those of you who are having trouble following along with a flowery language Essentially what was just said is that we're all going to die someday And we're all going to be made perfect after we die. 


[00:11:47] This did not happen to Mary. Now already you might be thinking Okay, what does this guy mean? Sources, please. She by an entirely unique privilege completely overcame sin By her immaculate conception she was born without sin. This is the dogma, not the doctrine, of immaculate conception. Mary was born without sin. 


[00:12:12] Moving on. And as a result, she was not subject to the law of remaining in the corruption of the grave. So she was raised to heaven, and she did not have to wait until the end of time for her redemption of her body. This is what's known as the bodily assumption and immaculate conception of Mary, and it's what the Pope is affirming here. 


[00:12:33] Gina: Is this trying to say that Mary went to heaven after Jesus, or at what point in her life is this claiming this? 


[00:12:41] Ben: Generally, it's claimed that sometime After Jesus's death, either Mary died, but then she was resurrected and ascended body and all into heaven, or she never died and was ascended body and all into heaven. 


[00:12:54] It's not certain exactly what. 


[00:12:56] Gina: Okay. 


[00:12:58] Ben: The main point is that she was ascended to heaven. So, number six, thus, when it was solemnly proclaimed that Mary, the virgin mother of God, was from the very beginning free from the taint of original sin. She was not born with sin. As in, for the doctrine, the dogma of original sin didn't apply to her. 


[00:13:15] She was born completely perfect and pure. She was sinless just like Jesus. The minds of the faithful were filled with a stronger hope that the day might soon come when the dogma of the Virgin Mary's bodily assumption into heaven would also be defined by the church's supreme teaching authority. There's also the final parts where essentially it says that this is all dogma. 


[00:13:37] You have to believe this. If you're not, let you be anathema. Numbers 48. This is at the very end of the document. In order that this, our definition of the bodily assumption of the Virgin Mary into heaven, be brought to the attention of the universal church, we desire that this, our apostolic letter, Should stand for perpetual remembrance, commanding that written copies of it, or even cop, printed copies, signed by the hand of any public notary, and bearing the seal of a person constituted in ecclesiastical dignity, should be accorded by all men the same reception they would give to this present letter, were it tendered or shown. 


[00:14:15] It is forbidden. to any man to change this, our declaration, pronouncement, and definition, or by rash attempt to oppose and counter it. If any man should presume to make such attempt, let him know that he will incur the wrath of Almighty God and of the blessed apostles Peter and Paul. What that is saying? 


[00:14:35] Cody: Why just Peter and Paul? I don't know. 


[00:14:37] Ben: I don't know. Where's John? Like, where's, where's Matthew? I don't know. But Peter and Paul and also God. You'd think that would be encompassed in God's wrath, but whatever. 


[00:14:48] Gina: Okay, here's my question. 


[00:14:50] Ben: Yeah. 


[00:14:50] Gina: Okay, because I got baptized as a baby in the Catholic church. And so they, my family pushed me through all of the different sacraments and all of that until confirmation. 


[00:14:59] Okay. So I get to confirmation. Why was I not presented with this type of. Leave. This is what you're signing up for. I did not get confirmed. I actually refused. I felt super convicted not to do it. So I didn't. Thank God. But this is back to what I said earlier about not all Catholics are aware of these things. 


[00:15:20] This is a perfect example of that. 


[00:15:22] Cody: But this is kind of what we've talked about with know what your church believes, know your church's doctrines, because I don't find ignorance an excuse for sin. And I don't think that is not going to have any weight when Judgment Day comes around. 


[00:15:40] Gina: No, but you have somebody who's presenting this as, We are preparing you through sacraments. 


[00:15:47] to become consecrated for Christ. They're not saying you will come under the wrath of Peter and Paul and God. They're saying, if you don't agree with certain things, they're saying, this is for your betterment. This is what's good for you. This is what's best for you. And if you do question it, I suppose maybe they would present you with that after the fact. 


[00:16:11] But, it's just like the repeat after me prayer in our own churches. You're saying something and agreeing to something that you have no idea what you're agreeing to. That's why I think it's really important for Catholics to know these things, because I don't know that they would agree, or think deeply enough without the context to understand really where this came from and what the difference between a doctrine and a dogma really is. 


[00:16:36] Cody: But this is kind of why we're doing it, because it's the same with Mormons, Jehovah's Witness. There's a lot of people that don't know why they believe what they believe in any denomination, like ours included. Because what I'm about to read, I guarantee most Roman Catholics won't agree with. So here's some of the prayers that have been ordained by the church as 


[00:17:02] Gina: By the Catholic Church. 


[00:17:03] Cody: By the Catholic Church, as edifying and appropriate. O blessed and immaculate Virgin, our Queen and Mother, Refuge and consolation of all those who are in misery, I prostrate before Thy throne with all of my family, Choose Thee for my Lady Mother and advocate with God. I, with all who belong to me, dedicate myself forever to thy service, and pray thee, O Mother of God, to receive us into the number of thy servants. 


[00:17:43] taking us all under thy protection. 


[00:17:47] Ben: So far, some questionable, it's like, okay, we're serving Mary. I don't, I'm not super on board with that, but most of the language is still so far. Not 


[00:17:55] Gina: whole family. 


[00:17:58] Cody: We read dedicate in this prayer again. So it goes on aiding us in life. And until more at the hour of our death, O mother of mercy, I choose thee lady, and ruler of my whole house, of my relatives, my interests, and all of my affairs. 


[00:18:19] Do not disdain to take care of them, dispose of them all as it pleases thee. Bless me then, and all of my family, and do not permit that any of us should offend thy son. Do thou defend us in temptations, deliver us from dangers. Provide for us in our necessities, counsel us in our doubts, counsel us in afflictions, be with us in sickness, and especially in the agonies of death. 


[00:18:51] Do not permit the devil to To glory and having in His chains any of us who are now consecrated to Thee. But grant that we may come to Thee in heaven to thank Thee, and together with Thee to praise and love our Redeemer Jesus for all eternity. Amen. That's from Glories of Mary. 


[00:19:12] Gina: When was that written? 


[00:19:13] Cody: It was written in the 18th century. 


[00:19:16] So it's the Glories of Mary by Saint Alphinaeus Liguori. 


[00:19:22] Gina: Wow. 


[00:19:23] Cody: Probably 


[00:19:23] Ben: mispronounced his name, but. It's all very frightening language, in that you're dedicating yourself, not to God, for all eternity, in his service. But you and your family to marry. You can say that it's veneration all you want, but 


[00:19:41] Gina: Maybe it was written in Latin and like it just doesn't translate well. 


[00:19:45] Ben: Well, and it would be 


[00:19:45] Cody: one thing if that was the only prayer There's another one in here. There was another one that talked about Giving her thanks for salvation, but it's oh, yeah. 


[00:19:55] Ben: I so there's also uh, Novena prayers to our mother of perpetual help and in the first novena prayer to our lady of perpetual help I'm not going to read the whole thing because it's fairly long but just a little bit in here a couple of highlights Assist me for the love of jesus christ stretches forth Thy hand to a miserable fallen creature who commends himself to thee and who devotes himself to thy service forever You I bless and thank Almighty God who in his mercy has given me this confidence in thee. 


[00:20:27] So God has given me confidence in Mary, which I hold to be a pledge of my eternal salvation. You know that you are eternally saved because God has given you confidence in Mary. It is true that in the past I have miserably fallen into sin because I had not recourse to thee. Amen. 


[00:20:48] Gina: Okay, what verse in the Bible is that? 


[00:20:50] Ben: None of them. 


[00:20:51] Gina: Oh. 


[00:20:53] Ben: I know that with thy help I shall conquer. I know, too, that thou wilt assist me, if I recommend myself to thee. But I fear that, in time of danger, I may neglect to call on thee, and thus lose my soul. 


[00:21:11] Gina: We're just venerating her. 


[00:21:13] Ben: You can try to do the steel manning as much as you want. You can try to say that this isn't actual worship of Mary. 


[00:21:21] Gina: I, okay, what you just read is more adoring to Mary than any prayer that I've ever read written about Jesus. 


[00:21:32] Cody: In their defense, they have some great prayers about Jesus. They do. I'm not trying to say that all, none of us are trying to say that. But lose 


[00:21:39] Gina: my soul? 


[00:21:40] Cody: Yeah. There's more in the Glories of Mary that talks about giving your soul to Mary. 


[00:21:45] Gina: It's so similar to the New Age spiritualism, and it scares me. Yes. Because that's what I was brought up in. Like, I was brought up in the Catholic Church. We went to the Catholic Church, but at home it was completely different. And this is what freaks me out and is a part of why 25 years old. Because I didn't understand the weirdness that skews the role of God and the role of Jesus and the role of the Holy Spirit. 


[00:22:14] Cody: So this one's on page 39. So the, the glories of Mary, it's from the 18th century. It has been republished dozens of times. 


[00:22:25] Gina: Page 39 of our own notes. 


[00:22:29] Cody: Page 39 of our own notes. They were a lot of notes. But so this has got the Vatican stamp of approval. The one that I'm reading out of was, I think, released in 1888. 


[00:22:40] It's got the New York arch. Diocese stamp of approval on it that they supposedly read it and approve this and this is material that they approve as Venerating it opens with Oh glorious virgin. I know that thou being queen of the universe Art also my queen. I Dedicate myself to thee then it goes on I submit myself to thy control to thy rule you govern thy entirely rule me Oh my queen Command me, employ me, and punish me if I do not obey. 


[00:23:16] I very solitarily will be the punishments that come from thy hands. So now she's taking the judgment aspect into her own hands. 


[00:23:25] Gina: I don't even know if you need to go on. Do you? 


[00:23:28] Cody: I give myself to thee. This isn't the one. There's another one in here that talks about giving your soul. There's 


[00:23:34] Ben: one that's worse! 


[00:23:35] I know, that's 


[00:23:35] Cody: why I'm trying to find it. I might not have posted that one in 


[00:23:41] Ben: here. But the moral of the story is there's, do we really need to go on folks? There is so much of this, and I understand we started out with the Catholic answers, the as watered down, as digestible as possible. And unfortunately, very dishonest answer. 


[00:24:00] This isn't just praying to Mary like you are praying to the saints. This isn't just asking a friend to pray for you anymore. At this point. 


[00:24:08] Gina: This is a covenant. 


[00:24:09] Ben: It literally is. 


[00:24:11] Cody: Do you have more on Mary or can I read some Bible to get this bad taste out of my mouth? Please read some Bible. Please. Please dear God. 


[00:24:19] Dear Jesus. On veneration even. I think that's. A slippery slope there, but Acts 10, 25 through 26, as Peter entered the house, Cornelius met him and fell at his feet in reverence, but Peter made him get up, stand up. He said, I am only a man myself. That's not that that's reverence. So that's what they're doing. 


[00:24:41] They're venerating and showing reverence to saints. Peter's calling that out as, I'm just a man, don't do that. There, there's scripture there. 1 Timothy 2, 5, For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, and that man is Christ Jesus. 


[00:24:59] Ben: And if you're trying to make the point that Mary was somehow beyond everyone else, yes, she absolutely gave birth to Christ. 


[00:25:07] No one is denying that. And I do think that there is sometimes the temptation Amongst Protestants, to go in the complete other direction, be like, Whoa, who said anything about the, the mother of God? And I understand why we, we have that hesitation. Because it implies that there's something very unique and powerful, in a sense, about Mary. 


[00:25:25] No, she is worthy of honor. God chose her for a reason, and she said yes. Also, Joseph is worthy of a measure of honor. Because he stuck around, he said yes. They both were put through hell. 


[00:25:37] Cody: Is she any more glorified as a tool of God than, say, Moses, or Jeremiah, or Elijah? 


[00:25:46] Ben: It's funny you should say that, because in many ways Jesus actually answered this. 


[00:25:52] Matthew, chapter 12, verses 46 through 50. While he was still speaking to the people, behold, his mother and his brothers stood outside asking to speak to him. But he replied to the man who told him, Who is my mother and who are my brothers? And stretching out his hand towards his disciples, he said, Here is my mother and my brothers. 


[00:26:15] For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my mother and sister and brother. Mary had a degree of esteem, absolutely. But she was not held higher than anyone else in the kingdom of heaven, according to Jesus. We're all equal. All of us. Mary doesn't hold some higher office. She's not the queen of the universe. 


[00:26:38] And I wish that was even a hyperbolic thing I'm saying, but that's literally what the prayer said. She's the queen of the universe. She's queen of heaven. She's queen of the angels. 


[00:26:46] Cody: Do we want to go into that background of why she's called queen? Please. Might as well. The train of thought there is old tradition is a king was born and until that king was made of age to rule, the queen would rule for them. 


[00:27:05] The queen being the mother of the king, the queen, the queen Regent. And there is some biblical foundation to verses of that. There's some genealogies in Kings. Solomon talks about getting a seat for his mom at the right hand of his rule and all of that stuff. So, there is some historical context, but that is before Jesus time, so that context I don't think fits into the historical context of when Jesus was born and when Mary wasn't. 


[00:27:36] Gina: You see an element of that in her raising Jesus, from being born to being ready for His ministry. You don't see it after His ministry. 


[00:27:47] Ben: Agreed. Like, from the verse we literally just read, Jesus made it abundantly clear when Mary and his brothers came, his whole family was coming there and wanted to speak to him. 


[00:27:57] He did not stop what he was doing immediately and go say, yes, mom, what is it? 


[00:28:02] Gina: It's funny because there are verses where he'll say to his mom, woman, that's how I hear it. And I know that there's footnotes that say that doesn't mean disrespect in that era and whatever. But I, that's how I hear it in my mind. 


[00:28:14] And it's, He loves his mother. She's still a woman. 


[00:28:17] Ben: Yeah. And I think one of the weaknesses of Protestantism is our stance. Oddly enough, it's the same thing as our strength, our focus on Sola Scriptura. Because for us, the Bible is enough. And in truth it is. But because of that, we tend to spend all of our time on the Bible and not very much on church history. 


[00:28:37] And if we spent just a tiny bit more time, not even a whole lot, but just a bit more time on church history, we would actually know that one of the big reasons, in fact, Probably the biggest reason that Protestants came into existence at all is literally because of this point. Say what you want about Martin Luther. 


[00:28:53] He certainly wasn't a perfect man, but just again I know I'm reading a lot here folks, and I'm sorry. This is a lot of data heavy stuff 


[00:29:02] Gina: But this is the logic of God 


[00:29:03] Ben: Yes And the thing is that we do need to be concise and not be presenting just our own opinions here Because this is vitally important stuff, and we'll go into why it's so important in just a bit, because ultimately you could just be sitting there as a Catholic and think, Okay, you're not Catholic, why does this matter to you? 


[00:29:18] Now, we'll get to that in a second, because I do think it's actually worth covering why this matters. In more reasons than just, you could be praying to demons, or you're giving exaltation, literal worship, to something that is not God. No, your soul. Yes, your soul. You are pledging your internal soul to Mary. 


[00:29:34] Yeah, so, setting all that aside, real quick. And 


[00:29:36] Gina: also, The Bible doesn't call us to pledge our immortal soul to anybody. Like we're called to obey through steps of salvation, but there's no like special prayer outlined in the Bible that's have my immortal soul. 


[00:29:50] Ben: Ultimately that we are handing over ownership of our lives to Christ. 


[00:29:54] But that's the thing. There's, you know, Genuinely, when you view the Gospel message as what it really is, it's God has taken the punishment meant for you onto himself. He loves you. He wants to know you. He wants to, He wants you to be a part of Him and for Him to be a part of you. It's, it's not that you're selling your soul. 


[00:30:13] It's that He is the rightful owner of you. And you can choose to reject Him or to not. But, at any rate, yeah, I do feel like we, we do tend to ignore Our own history here and the our history here is actually fascinating because we spent a little bit of time here We don't understand just how serious of a problem this can be when Martin Luther wrote specifically on the idea of prayer to Mary This is Luther's works 47 45 through 46 Furthermore, how will you endure their terrible idolatries of the papists meaning the people who follow the Pope? 


[00:30:48] It was not good enough that they venerated the saints and praised God in them, but they actually made them into gods. They put that noble child, the mother Mary, right into the place of Christ. They fashioned Christ into a judge and thus revised a tyrant for anguished consciences, so that all comfort and confidence was transferred to God. 


[00:31:12] From Christ to Mary. And then everyone turned from Christ to this particular saint. Can anyone deny this? Is it not true? Didn't we not all, alas, at one time try this and experience it? Are not books extant, especially those of the shabby barefoot friars, the preaching friars. I don't know if he was mocking anyone there, but Which team with idolatries, such as the Marialia, Stellaria, Rosaria, Coronaria. 


[00:31:43] They may as well be Diabolaria and Satanaria. Ugh, yeah, he was spitting flames. There still is no sign of repentance or improvement, but they obstinately and impudently insist that all this must be defended, and that they ask for your body and life for its protection. And there were people who did die for this. 


[00:32:06] He wasn't, and yeah, you, again, you can say what you want about Martin Luther, he was certainly not a perfect man, I'm not making that ad, making advocacy that he was some kind of saint. But you have to understand the environment that brought the worst out of this man. He genuinely loved, he loved the Catholic Church when he started out. 


[00:32:22] He was literally studying to be a monk, he was a monk. He was so terrified the first time he led a Latin Mass that he stammered through the whole thing and he didn't get anything right. And then he started to have some issues with the Catholic Church, starting with the indulgences. He saw the corruption that was happening. 


[00:32:37] He wrote the Ninety Five Thesis and his life was over. And then from there, it was just a cascade. It was like the floodgates opened up. And he suddenly realized, you know what, just because this is tradition, it doesn't mean it's right. I'm gonna go back to the Bible. And what he found, what, turns out all of this is complete hogwash. 


[00:32:53] Why are we praying to the saints? Why are we praying to Mary? Why are we doing any of this? But then the more questions he asked, the more he was torn apart. And the more people around him who listened to him, who even had the audacity to listen to him, their lives were destroyed. Many of them were killed. 


[00:33:08] The church had the authority to do it. And I'm not making that up. I can, I brought the receipts for that too. 


[00:33:13] Gina: What's really interesting here is how, like, if you look at. Anthropology or like the ways that culture has evolved and developed from this era that you're reading from. We have so many unhealthy cultural perspectives that come from these things. 


[00:33:33] And so, you don't even know, you might be an atheist, and you don't even know that the origin of what you're doing socially, or in your family, or in your belief system actually comes from these Things that were written hundreds of years ago, but if you look at like the unhealthy relationships and families or this reminds me so much of my own upbringing, it's kind of disturbing, but you don't think about these connections and it's, Oh, we just exist and we're just here and we just evolved, but no, there are direct links culturally to these beliefs that are being perpetuated. 


[00:34:13] And I believe that if these were things that were godly. They wouldn't be as common as they are. 


[00:34:20] Cody: The, the sad part about all of this is, as a culture today, the average person has no reason for falling into this same trap. At this time, when Luther had to write the Ninety Five Thesis, the Catholic Church had complete control of Scripture. 


[00:34:40] It was very hard for the lay person to 


[00:34:45] Gina: stand against it 


[00:34:46] Cody: to even be able to read it I'm like literacy wasn't around back then let alone literacy in Latin from a translation that was way out of date even for that time You 


[00:35:00] Gina: have the church that is very entwined with the political climate like the king or whatever you have a pope telling a king All of these things that are true, but they're not even like the royalty, the politics, the leaders of nations didn't have the ability to question it. 


[00:35:18] It was because I said, so it's not like that now, 


[00:35:21] Cody: but it's not like that, but they're still falling into that. Like we're still falling into that same trap 


[00:35:28] Ben: and it does feel like we're just doomed to repeat these same mistakes over and over. It's a bit disheartening in some ways. 


[00:35:35] Gina: I think the biggest undertone here. 


[00:35:39] Whether we like to admit it or not is laziness, complacency, it's a lot to digest for somebody who maybe isn't as intellectual, like it's a lot of information, it's a lot of big words, it's a lot of complicated theories and promises, and it's, listen, if you say it's good for me, that's good enough because I've got other things to do. 


[00:36:02] Cody: But what value in life is that if you believe what these people are saying? If you believe in Jesus at all, what, what value is it to be complacent and to three sheets to the wind? I'm just going to go with what they say. What value is that to you at all? 


[00:36:20] Gina: When Madeline was born, she's 12 now. But when she was born, nobody wanted to have these conversations with me. 


[00:36:27] It was, do you want to promise her to the Catholic church or not? No, I don't personally. So I didn't, we didn't, we left the Catholic church, but it's not presented in this package that we've kind of unpacked. It's put in a box with a shiny bow and they're like, listen, this is like mom's China that you put in the cabinet and you don't look at. 


[00:36:50] And you don't touch what's there. 


[00:36:51] Cody: But this is all denominations. 


[00:36:54] Gina: That's what I'm saying. Yeah, 


[00:36:55] Cody: non denominational you got the flavor of name it and claim it and that's the stamp of approval and most people don't make it past that who fall into that trap. 


[00:37:06] Gina: We're all looking for a physical manifestation. Of God on earth. 


[00:37:12] And you have really smart, crafty, wonderful, sometimes people, even inside the Catholic church, wonderful people that believe these things are confident in these things and their confidence is enough to get people on board without an explanation, that's complacency. 


[00:37:32] Ben: Kind of closing us out here. If you're a Catholic, you may be hearing all this, and maybe this is all new to you, maybe it isn't. 


[00:37:39] Maybe you think we're being unfair, I hope you don't think that, and I, I know there's been some overreactions, partly for cartoonish effect, just to make things fun, but also, genuinely, this stuff, I think it weighs on all of us. I think we see the potential for a lot of danger in these different dogmas. 


[00:37:56] But you may be hearing all this, and thinking, you guys aren't Catholic, so it doesn't matter. Why do you care? You're Protestant. One, truth matters. I think we all agree that truth matters. 


[00:38:07] Gina: I'm sorry. I could tell a story right now. No, 


[00:38:11] Ben: no, by all means. 


[00:38:13] Gina: Our six year old daughter went to school. So we previously homeschooled. 


[00:38:17] Our six year old daughter went to school this week. And she told the whole class, Santa is not real. 


[00:38:25] That she needed to be more respectful of other people's beliefs because now all of the other kids are telling her she's lying and Santa is real. And she keeps going back to school and being like, listen, your parents are lying to you. The truth is important. Lying is a sin and I'm not going to lie to you. 


[00:38:42] Santa's not real. So I just, that whole thing that you just said reminded me of Ellie, six years old. Being like, your parents are lying to you and the truth matters. Lying is a sin. God hates liars. 


[00:38:56] Ben: I mean, I wouldn't have put it so eloquently, but you're not wrong. 


[00:39:00] Gina: That's what she's saying to the five year olds in her class. 


[00:39:03] Ben: God bless her. 


[00:39:05] Gina: She's ruined Christmas for everybody. 


[00:39:07] Ben: And you know what? Christmas was never an issue for me. I always knew that Santa wasn't real. My parents didn't lie to me. 


[00:39:16] Gina: Okay. I'm sorry. That just made me laugh. 


[00:39:18] Ben: No, it's fine. And honestly. That's the truth here. It's that if you're coming to this and saying, you're not Catholic, so it doesn't matter. 


[00:39:24] What we're talking about is truth. We're brothers and sisters in Christ, no matter what. So first and foremost, your thought shouldn't be, why does it matter to you what I believe? No, it matters to us what everyone on earth believes. We care. Do you believe the truth? Do you want to know the Lord or do you not? 


[00:39:42] If we're doing something wrong, we need to know. And if you're doing something wrong, you need to know. If you haven't heard this stuff, you need to confront it. If it's the truth, you need to understand why. Not just simply accept it because you were told, but to fully grasp it, in fear and trembling working out your salvation. 


[00:40:00] And the same needs to be true for us. If we're wrong on any point here, And we've literally read verbatim from multiple Catholic sources tonight. It would be very difficult for us to be wrong to be reading them directly. And there was no wiggle room for interpretation. They're actually very clear. But if we're wrong on something, we need to know. 


[00:40:18] If we should all be Catholic, which is what the Catholic Church's position is, then we need to turn. We need to repent. 


[00:40:25] Gina: And that's not to say that Protestant churches don't have the same issues on a different spectrum. Absolutely. 


[00:40:31] Ben: Yes, absolutely. We've said multiple times tonight, it's not that Protestants are perfect. 


[00:40:36] Gina: No. 


[00:40:37] Ben: And there are areas that Catholics excel in. There is genuine beauty to the Catholic faith. I'm not going to sit here and say that everything about it is wrong. 


[00:40:44] Yeah. 


[00:40:45] Ben: However, there is the central, the handful of central doctrines that will always prevent me from siding with the Catholics. I cannot be a Catholic because of papal infallibility, because of the bodily assumption of Mary, because of the worship of Mary. 


[00:40:59] I, I'm not going to call it veneration. It is legitimate worship. You can't look at any of those prayers with an objective eye and say that it's not worship. But lastly, from the Catholic perspective. If we disagree with any of these points, and if you as a Catholic is listening to this and you disagree with any of those points and you think it's okay, according to the Catholic Church, no, it's not. 


[00:41:20] If you go against any dogma, you are anathema. This is lined up multiple times in the Council of Trent. It's lined up multiple times throughout church history. If you disagree with any point, any dogma, In the Catholic Church, your salvation is rejected. You are anathema. Maybe you've heard that term before in the Catholic Church. 


[00:41:39] Maybe you haven't. I don't know. Gina, have you heard the term anathema before? 


[00:41:42] Gina: I've heard the term anathema before, but not because of mass and not because of anything a priest ever said. 


[00:41:49] Ben: Gotcha. Well, the idea that if you reject and you can go through the Council of Trent and look at the canon, it says tons and tons of times, if anyone does not believe X, let them be anathema. 


[00:41:59] Anathema. Anathema. This is mentioned multiple times in several different councils, even, throughout church history. Let them be anathema. What does that mean? If you talk to modern Catholics, again, they will give you a very soft answer. It means you're just not a part of the Catholic Church. Okay, but what does that mean? 


[00:42:16] According to the Acts of the Second Council of Nicaea, an anathema is a terrible thing. It drives its victims far from God and expels them from the kingdom of heaven, carrying them off into the outer darkness. If you are anathema, if you disagree with any of the dogma of the Catholic Church, you are anathema, you are cast off into the outer darkness, you're going to hell. 


[00:42:35] And you may think, okay, that's just one source. According to Pope Zachary, year 751 to 752, this is pretty early on, not the earliest on in church history, but this is a ritual. Forecasting people out of the church. This is where the phrase bell, book, and candle comes from. It refers to a Latin Christian method of excommunication by anathema, imposed on a person who committed an exceptionally grievous sin, or someone who just rejects the Catholic dogma. 


[00:43:02] And this is what is said during that ritual. Apparently, there would be twelve priests bearing candles, and there would be the bishop, and then they would pronounce this ritual over you, and then you would be rejected from the church. Wherefore, in the name of God, the all powerful Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, of the blessed Peter, Prince of the Apostles, and of all the saints, in virtue of the power which has been given us of binding and loosing in heaven and on earth, we deprive, insert name here, himself and all his accomplices and all his abettors. 


[00:43:34] of the communion of the body and blood of our Lord. We separate him from the society of all Christians, and we exclude him from the bosom of our Holy Mother, the Church in heaven and on earth. We declare him excommunicated and anathematized, and we judge him condemned to eternal fire with Satan and his angels and all the reprobate. 


[00:43:54] Gina: This sounds so much like an abusive relationship it's not even funny. 


[00:43:57] Ben: Yeah. 


[00:43:58] Gina: Gaslighting and triangulation. Man. And just a lot of toxic traits. 


[00:44:05] Ben: You can't quit because you're FIRED. Yeah. It You're going to be afraid to even question anything. Because you can't. If you question the dogma, you're threatening your own salvation. 


[00:44:17] Gina: Questioning things has been one of the most beautiful aspects of my faith. I couldn't imagine being forbidden to have questions and to disagree. And that's why I love having the spine versus rib conversations. Because we can have healthy, loving, respectful conversations. Still come to the end and totally disagree with each other, but never, ever call out our salvation or accuse one another of going to hell or any horrible thing just because we have a disagreement. 


[00:44:51] It's so personal. But it's like, we're free to have these questions and to say, listen, I don't know if I agree with you. And just because you're a leader in the church doesn't mean that you're like the end all be all, you know, forever dogma. I don't know, it's just, it's like, super, super weird. volatile. 


[00:45:12] Ben: Any thoughts, Cody? 


[00:45:13] Cody: Oh, just bringing it back to prayer and the whole discussion around even needing an intercessory person or saint or angel, again, turn to scripture. So Romans 8, 26 through 27, likewise, the spirit helps us in our weakness for we do not know what to pray for as we ought. But the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 


[00:45:44] And he who searches hearts knows what it is that the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 


[00:45:54] Gina: I just think that the most beautiful and empowering thing you can do is pray directly to God. 


[00:46:00] Ben: Absolutely. 


[00:46:01] Gina: There is nothing like a personal relationship with Him and it's not just a personal relationship with God. 


[00:46:07] It's a personal relationship with Jesus and with the Holy Spirit is interceding for us, is here with us, is in us. Scripture promises so many different things for God's presence. In the Trinity, and I just don't see why complicating it with these promises of giving up our soul or asking somebody who's dead to pray for us is as valuable as the relationship that we get to have with God. 


[00:46:36] And I know it's hard like Cody mentioned, having a one way conversation and for super logical people, I know that can be really challenging. But at the same time. It's not more comforting for you to pray to a saint. It's the same thing. It's a one sided conversation. It's not going to change anything for you. 


[00:46:56] Like having the prayer one on one with God and then whatever God does. It's not always God's voice in your mind or in your heart or, you know, an audible answer. Sometimes it's something will happen and you have confirmation or whatever. God works in mysterious ways, but you have that answer and you know that he's heard you and there's just nothing like that. 


[00:47:21] And you're never going to get that from praying to anybody other than God. 


[00:47:25] Ben: I think there are a lot of people who are genuinely afraid to approach God, and I understand that fear. And it's not just Catholics, but I think in Catholic theology, there's kind of this feeling that God is always very angry. He views you as a disgusting, terrible sinner. 


[00:47:42] You see this kind of repeated throughout the prayers to God. I am a horrible, terrible, degenerate, and you are the only good thing. And maybe that's true. In fact, it is. We are sinners. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. But a lot of people look at that and think, he's just waiting for me to do something wrong. 


[00:47:59] And the second I do something wrong, he's looking to throw me into hell. And he's angry with me. And I don't know what I can do. And then you hear about the saints, and these are people who managed to succeed in pleasing him in some way. And you hear about Mary, and she's a nice lady. She was the mother of God. 


[00:48:15] She's nurturing. She'll be able to help you out. She'll be able to, in some instances I've seen this explanation, change God's mind. To try to coax Him into having a better temperament. To be nice. That's kind of the attitude that this is approached in. 


[00:48:30] Gina: Grandpa's cranky today, go ask your mother. 


[00:48:32] Ben: That really does feel like how it is. 


[00:48:34] He's a very cranky, grumpy, angry old man. And the saints and Mary are your brothers and sisters and your mom. And your mom loves you and she's really nice. They effectively look at Mary the way that we as Protestants look at Christ. And in many ways, I can't fault them for that because that kind of is the way with venial and mortal sins. 


[00:48:54] You make one wrong move and God's gonna throw you into hell and it doesn't matter how much you love him or how well you've served him. He's just waiting. And the second you misstep, you're out. You're treated the same as a heathen. And we as Protestants don't see that. But there's still, for many of us, despite the fact that we don't have that doctrine, we have the doctrine of, okay, it is by grace we've been saved through faith. 


[00:49:15] God loves us. He took the sins of the world on himself for us. One sec, there's one more thing I think is worth reading. By this faith I am assured, and by this assurance I feel the remission of my sins. This is it that maketh me bold. This is it that comfort me. This is it that quencheth all despair. Thus I feel myself to come, as it were, in a new garment before God, and now by his mercy to be taken as just. 


[00:49:49] Gina: It reminds me of, it's a song, but it's spoken prayer and it's a Puritan prayer that he's reading. It's a song by a band called Attalus called Safe. And it's like this description of your soul being safe. And it's so comforting. If you want to listen to something that will take your breath away with just the beauty of Christ's love, go listen to it. 


[00:50:12] But, I don't know, it, it, it is an indescribable kind of, uh, release of that shame that sin puts on us as Christians, whether we're Catholic or not. 


[00:50:25] Ben: And that is the true beauty of the gospel message. It's that all of your sin has been washed away. There is no guilt. There's no shame. All that's left is God's love for you. 


[00:50:37] If you choose him, then it doesn't matter who you were before. And you don't have to keep coming back over and over before a vengeful and angry God to constantly keep making atonement for your sins, because He's already forgiven them. 


[00:50:50] Cody: Gotta remember, while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 


[00:50:54] Something that is not gained from moral perfection cannot be lost from moral imperfection. No matter what you do, you didn't do anything for your salvation. God did that. At the end of the day, what you do to be a good person is not anything to do for your salvation. God already paid that price. So what you can't lose from moral imperfection, you can't gain from moral perfection. 


[00:51:23] Gina: Thank you so much for taking the time to listen to our podcast today. If you liked what you heard, please feel free to subscribe and share and leave a positive review. And if you would like to connect with us on social media, you can do so on Instagram and Facebook at the podcast. The logic of God. You can also send us an email at Maine dot the Logic of god@gmail.com. 


[00:51:46] Thanks again for listening. We hope you have a great day.

What is Prayer and Can We Pray To the Dead?

[00:00:00] Cody: Hi, thank you for tuning in to the logic of God podcast. I'm Cody. 


[00:00:19] Gina: I'm Gina. 


[00:00:20] Cody: And I'm Ben. If you're returning. Thank you for coming back. And if you are a new guest, welcome. 


[00:00:38] Gina: Here's the deal. I'm a lady. I like to shop. I ordered some stickers. I have students and children and teachers and people in my life that I like to give stickers to. And the stickers that I ordered this time are, they have like little Christian quotes and they're super cute, but some of them were pretty bad. 


[00:00:59] They 


[00:00:59] Ben: the gospel of luck. 


[00:01:02] Gina: Yeah. 


[00:01:04] Ben: So what did they say? 


[00:01:05] Gina: So one of the stickers said, God is madly in love with you. That's actually a Hillsong quote. So I just want to know, is God really madly in love with me? 


[00:01:17] Ben: I guess it depends on what you mean by madly in love. 


[00:01:20] Gina: I would put it in the perspective of your average American, whether they're Christian or not. 


[00:01:27] Ben: So in terms of romantic love, no, I do think that there is some precedent for that comparison. The church is described as the bride of Christ. And so, in some sense, you could attribute a measure of some kind of heavenly romantic love. Now, I still wouldn't say that. Because at the same time, we're also given a father son or father daughter relationship with God. 


[00:01:55] So, I would say that there is an incredibly strong, reckless, powerful, incredible love that's there. And that, I think, is what, when people say, He's madly in love with you. That's what they're getting at. It's another way of saying that so I would say yes But there are some connotations to saying that aren't helpful So there are other ways of saying it that are more clear and less odd context to it 


[00:02:19] Cody: But God loves me no matter what I do. 


[00:02:21] Yeah, what do you think? I? Think that yes, God loves you Just because our assumption, like we've talked about that in depth, but, um, if you think God loves. Every part of you and that he's not going to try to refine you and you're mistaken 


[00:02:42] Gina: What do you think that message could send 


[00:02:44] Cody: God loves you? 


[00:02:46] Gina: No, God is madly in love with you Does he need us? 


[00:02:50] Ben: No Yeah, I agree. It, it isn't that he needs us. He existed for an infinite amount of time before we existed, and he will exist an infinite amount of time after this world crumbles to dust. Ultimately, what he needs is himself. And when you look at the stories throughout the Bible, the whole idea is to bring us to be closer and closer to who he is, because his first love is himself. 


[00:03:13] And the qualities in us that he loves the most are the qualities that reflect him, because we are meant to be that. We are to reflect our creator. 


[00:03:21] Gina: The reason that I ask is because if I had been given that sticker as a brand new Christian, it would have furthered this incorrect view of God that I had, of my role with God, and God's role with me. 


[00:03:38] And I think that's a really important starting point here when we talk about prayer. Because if you pray to God as if he is madly in love with you the way that a boyfriend in high school is madly in love with you, you're going to have this really weird prayer life that Kind of takes you down this path of God becoming like a really weird Air Jordan wearing Clown faced vending machine person. 


[00:04:04] I don't know I want to start there because I think we need to kind of quickly outline prayer and what its purpose is and then Maybe go into some doctrine about prayer and figure out how to do it what the right way is That kind of a thing, because I think the unhealthy perspective of prayer is the more common version. 


[00:04:27] And I think that's the logic that I personally want to attack tonight. 


[00:04:31] Ben: Yeah, that's fair. And I do agree with you. This isn't something that I put a whole lot of thought in, but now that you, you bring it up, I can see how our expressions about God's love and its nature can be misleading to people who are kind of new to the church. 


[00:04:46] And even the people who are presently in it. Because when we say God loves us or we say we're talking to God, you ask a few different questions, you're probably going to get radically different answers, including people in the same church. As far as referring to it as a romantic love, you're right. There is an element of our own understanding of romantic love that is completely alien to God's love for us. 


[00:05:08] Like we were all in love at one point in high school We all had some kind of crush and when you have a crush on someone you don't see them You see the idealized version of that person. You don't see any of their faults You don't even conceive of the faults they could have and when you actually get into a relationship with that person You actually find out pretty quickly that they have faults 


[00:05:27] because 


[00:05:27] Ben: suddenly that honeymoon phase is over and you're left with the person And all that most attractive stuff that you saw in them, it turns out that was the stuff you wanted to see. 


[00:05:35] That's not the way God works with us. He knows who we are, and He knows what we are, and He knows the parts in us that are the most valuable. And He's constantly working through the process of sanctification, which we've talked about a few times. To make us more and more like him. To take the best qualities of us and make them better, and take the worst qualities of us and make them good. 


[00:05:56] Or, to slowly erode them away. It's like the Bible talks about purifying us, essentially. Like a crucible. Silver, you burn out the dross. And it's that kind of thing. So yeah, we don't really get that image. Though there is something like that. I believe that you can draw a parallel to in the process of marriage where it's two independent people and you've gone past the honeymoon stage and you're stuck with each other for life and so you have to constantly keep finding out you're not perfect. 


[00:06:22] And you have to work on one another and build one another into the best versions of yourselves that you can be. But I'm saying that as a single guy, I don't know what you guys think about it. 


[00:06:32] Gina: Hmm. 


[00:06:33] Hmm. 


[00:06:34] Ben: Oh dear, what have I done? 


[00:06:35] Gina: He's perfect and wonderful. Oh, 


[00:06:38] Cody: no sarcasm there at 


[00:06:40] Ben: all. All right. Moving more from the concept of love, because we have addressed this a few times. 


[00:06:47] very much. You mentioned prayer. What exactly is prayer? 


[00:06:51] Gina: It's a solemn request for help or expression of thanks addressed to God or an object of worship according to the Oxford Dictionary. 


[00:07:00] Ben: So that's what the Oxford Dictionary says. What would you say? Would you say that's a pretty good summation or do you feel like it might be leaving some things out there? 


[00:07:07] Gina: If you look at the Bible's example of what the ideal prayer is, it's leaving out quite a bit. 


[00:07:15] Ben: So what would you say is the ideal way to pray according to the Bible? 


[00:07:17] Gina: If you look at the Lord's Prayer, That is literally Jesus telling people, use this if you don't know what to pray, like that format is really helpful. 


[00:07:27] And that's usually my format for prayer because you give God the thanks and the praise and the glory. So it's like, Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. There's your glory part. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done. You want God's will to be exerted over your life. Give us this day our daily bread. 


[00:07:45] That's asking for the things that you need. Forgiving us our trespasses and forgiving other people. That's a really important part because you need the repentance. And then the lead us not into temptation is also really important. It's asking for refinement. It's asking to be made more like Jesus. So you have all of these different parts and most of them have nothing to do with asking for what you need. 


[00:08:08] Most of them have to do with God's character and your character and admitting those things out loud to the Lord. That's my little, like, 30 second explanation. 


[00:08:18] Ben: And an interesting part that I do hear covered a lot more these days is the very beginning portion, our father. The word that's used for father is ava, which in Hebrew is the equivalent of saying daddy for us. 


[00:08:32] It's like very 


[00:08:33] Gina: affectionate. It's a 


[00:08:34] Ben: very affectionate, very childlike, almost, version of saying father. And, honestly, Gina, that was a very good outline of why Jesus said the things that he did. Now, there's an undercurrent there, both of respect, but also of endearment, where God is absolutely your father, and he is your king, and he is the ruler over all things. 


[00:08:53] But he loves you, and he seeks to have a closer relationship with you, and that is very well embodied in the idea of calling him Abba, Father. You are my dad. And that is something that, the combination of all of those ideas is something that's difficult for us to wrap our heads around. And I do find that certain people are much better at treating him as a father, as someone that they're very close to, and there are certain people who are very good at treating him as the king. 


[00:09:20] And I do find that there are different denominations that focus on each individual aspect as outlined in the Lord's Prayer, and I don't think it's necessarily wrong. I do think that as Christians, it's our job to seek a complete view. Like what you outlined, it's each individual aspect of that prayer is revealing an aspect of God and our relationship with him. 


[00:09:38] And we should be seeking as Christians to get closer and closer to that ideal. 


[00:09:41] Gina: One thing that draws me in to prayer, so like that makes me motivated to pray, is like as a female, I don't know about as men, and maybe that's something you can explain or compare, but As a woman, when something happens in my life, I want to tell someone, I want to call someone, I want to talk about it. 


[00:10:01] And I've kind of learned that prompting is really the Holy Spirit being like, Hey, call up your dad and talk to him about it. Because a lot of times, What I end up doing or what I've ended up doing in the past is, Oh, I'm so mad. Let me call my friend and vent. And it turns into gossip and then it turns into resentment and it becomes this really unhealthy thing. 


[00:10:22] And it's an unhealthy expression of what just happened. And if I take it to God in prayer, first of all, it scratches the itch. It makes me. feel like I have had a satisfying resolution from God by releasing those feelings or that anger or whatever's happened, good or bad. And then it also gives me the self control to like really process what just happened before I opened my mouth. 


[00:10:48] And that's been really helpful in encouraging me to pray. Because the first person I should tell is God, not whoever I feel like calling in the moment. I don't know if that's useful for this, but I wanted to make that point, because that's something that I've been convicted about in the last year, that's really changed how I pray and why I pray. 


[00:11:08] Do you have the same feeling at all? Do you ever want to call someone? No. 


[00:11:15] Ben: No, I do not. 


[00:11:16] Gina: Not even 


[00:11:16] me? 


[00:11:17] Cody: I call you. 


[00:11:20] Ben: I can't speak for Cody or for all other men generally. I do find that my inclination as a man is when I talk with God, I want to find solutions to problems. If I have an issue in my life, I come to the Lord with the issue and I ask for help with it. 


[00:11:36] And I do my best to remember to praise him and be thankful. But as far as a relational aspect with other people thinking about, you know, that and the cascading effects that that could have, that doesn't really Factor so much into my prayer life. It's much more. Okay. Here's an issue and Lord. I'm seeking a solution 


[00:11:55] Gina: That's a slippery slope Benjamin. 


[00:11:57] Ben: Certainly 


[00:11:59] Cody: I would have to agree with that, um, for the most part, like the relational aspect is hard for me, because when I feel most connected to God is more when I'm going down a rabbit hole that is not trying to prove a point to prove somebody wrong, if that makes sense. Yeah, I know what you mean. So when I'm doing real Bible study, or Study on God is when I feel most connected. 


[00:12:23] So the back and forth, the relational aspect of prayer is hard for me because I feel it's a one sided conversation, and I don't like talking to myself or talking about myself or talking in general. 


[00:12:38] Gina: Guess what? You're doing that right now. And we're 


[00:12:40] Cody: proud 


[00:12:41] Ben: of you. Yeah, that's my thought on prayer. So taking that into consideration, what are the things that we should pray for? 


[00:12:48] Gina: You should pray to glorify God, to ask for his will, for your daily bread, to be forgiven and to forgive, to not be tempted and to be delivered from evil, amen. 


[00:13:03] Ben: So by daily bread, is it that we should just pray for the food that we need in that day or is it our immediate need that we know is clear? 


[00:13:10] Gina: It's the clear need that we have. 


[00:13:13] I think, I mean, a lot of the pastors that have spoken on prayer give a sermon like, pray expectantly, pray boldly, pray specifically. And I think it's really important to do those things, but with the correct intentions. With just almost like an organized, like if you're going to ask for something, you should know what you're asking for and what the ramifications of it will be. 


[00:13:38] Because God, if he says yes to what you're asking for and you're not specific enough, you can end up with a prayer answered that you weren't expecting. 


[00:13:46] Ben: I would say that you can pray and ask when you don't know what you want. 


[00:13:51] Gina: Yeah, no definitely, but if you're gonna, if you're gonna be like, God, I want a new job and he's okay, here's the gas station. 


[00:13:57] Ben: No, I see what you mean. At the same time, I do think there have been a lot of times in my life where I genuinely didn't know what I wanted. And in those instances, I think it is actually very important to ask God to reveal either what it is that you want, or more importantly, what it is that he wants. 


[00:14:13] That's 


[00:14:13] Gina: the first part, what your will be done. 


[00:14:16] Ben: Very true. 


[00:14:18] Cody: Does that mold the rest of the prayer though? I've heard a lot of people talk about prayer and you shouldn't be praying something that's against God's will or that is not God's will. 


[00:14:28] Gina: Go read Lamentations or Psalms and then tell me. 


[00:14:31] Cody: No, I agree with that, but the argument is God's not going to give you anything outside of His will. 


[00:14:37] Gina: Can you change God's mind? 


[00:14:38] Cody: What's the point of prayer? 


[00:14:41] Ben: It's been argued that the point of prayer is less To align God with your will and more to align yourself with his The more time you spend connecting with him the more you're going to find that the things that you ask are the things that he wants For you and this kind of begs the question. 


[00:14:57] Why did Jesus even bother praying? God already knew why he sent him to earth and more importantly God was Christ. So what was the point of prayer? 


[00:15:06] Gina: Jesus was like a superhero and he had this mind connection to God. No, I'm telling you how I have pictured it in the past before I learned. I think a lot of the things that Jesus did, and even the theophanies that God has in the Bible were more for our benefit. 


[00:15:26] Then for Jesus's benefit or for the sake of knowing that future generations are going to hear these stories and they're going to need some context or some examples of how to behave and how to speak and different things like that. I think that's a really big part of why Jesus did the things that he did and prayed the way that he did. 


[00:15:44] He was also fully man. 


[00:15:46] Ben: Absolutely. And because he was fully man, he could be tempted and the Bible says that he was tempted in every way so that he can sympathize with our position. It says he can sympathize with us because of that. Like when he went off into the desert, he was tempted by the devil. If he wasn't tempted, the Bible wouldn't tell us that he was tempted by the devil. 


[00:16:06] And, yes, obviously he said no. He was sinless. He lived a sinless life. He was God himself incarnated in the body of a human being. But to be fully human is to be tempted by things. And so there was a measure of separation that he had to fight. That was the entire reason why he had to go into the desert for 40 days. 


[00:16:24] He had to fast during that entire time. The whole point of fasting, according to the Bible, is to bring us closer to God. So he still needed to bypass that human limitation that he gave himself and he had to fight against it to get closer to his true nature, which was God. So, by that reasoning, when we spend time in prayer and when we spend time in fasting, the whole point is not to convince God to do something that he would never do. 


[00:16:48] The point is to align ourselves to try to get under God's will. 


[00:16:52] Gina: I love that you say it that way because every year our church does this fast and they're like, What are you fasting for? It's not even, what are you fasting from? It's what did you write to Santa for? And I hate it. So I love that you've just described it that way and included fasting because that's very important and it's all about your intention. 


[00:17:13] So if you're praying the Lord's Prayer, even if it's not a word for word Lord's Prayer and it just aligns with the outline that Jesus has given us, but you're really only there for the intention. Hey, by the way, I really need a new car, , or whatever it is that you're asking for. If you're like, okay, check, check, check all these boxes. 


[00:17:31] By the way, this is what I really need. Thanks. Amen. Your intentions aren't even right. Your posture is not even right, and I don't really see a point in praying that kind of prayer. 


[00:17:41] Ben: Mm-Hmm, . Well, and keep in mind, there was a point in the Garden of Gethsemane. Where Jesus was going to be crucified pretty soon, and he was absolutely terrified, and he was horrendously grieved, and he was praying to God during that time, and he said, Lord, if possible, take this cup from me. 


[00:17:58] But not my will but your will be done. He still had fears. He didn't want to go into the area he was about to go into and undergo the suffering he was about to, but he chose to do it despite the fear and the temptation to run. And I think that's something that we tend to forget. We tend to picture Jesus as this guy who was hovering two feet off the ground, shining light, and he knew everything 


[00:18:20] Gina: and he could read everyone's mind. 


[00:18:22] Ben: Absolutely. He just knew everything at all times. And yes, the disciples say, Lord, we see now that you know all things. You knew all things through God. 


[00:18:29] Gina: But even scripture says there are certain things that God does not reveal to Christ. And, like, when the end times is coming. That was one thing, like Jesus said, God hasn't told me this. 


[00:18:41] They are not the same. The Trinity is one, but God and Jesus are not exactly the same thing. 


[00:18:47] Ben: There are things the mind knows that the body doesn't, and there are things the will does that the body and mind don't do. 


[00:18:52] Gina: Right. 


[00:18:53] Ben: That's the point of these individual portions of God being what they are. They have different functions. 


[00:18:59] But in essence, it's, yeah, we we've talked this sober to death at this point. We don't need to go back into the Trinity or an exploration of it, I think. But you're right. He was not the same as the Father. The Father has a different role than the Son. 


[00:19:10] Gina: Right. So thinking about intention, Cody and I had a conversation earlier today about prayer. 


[00:19:18] We were kind of comparing Catholic prayer. To non denominational Christian prayer and we were like reading different prayers and kind of going over it Are we at a point where we can start to introduce other doctrine or do you want to continue? I think 


[00:19:33] Ben: we I think now is the right time. 


[00:19:35] Gina: Okay. 


[00:19:36] Ben: So yeah, obviously as Protestants not sorry, obviously as Protestants and non denominationals. 


[00:19:43] We don't pray the same way that Catholics do And there's probably a lot of people wondering, why is that? One, okay, so how is it that we pray differently? Because it's not that Catholics literally always say the same prayers all the time. But there are certain prayers that Catholics say, and we don't say them as Protestants. 


[00:20:00] So why is that? 


[00:20:02] Gina: I've done a lot of talking. Do you want to share anything? 


[00:20:05] Cody: I mean, why do they do that? Because I think it's Catholicism's more based in tradition. So this is a traditional thing and they give a lot of credit to the saints. So a lot of past church fathers have written these prayers and they believe that they're closer to God or, and all that stuff. 


[00:20:25] So if he wrote it, I'm going to say it and repeat it. And I'm gonna go with that. There's a lot of recited prayers that they do that I think pretty much only Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic and maybe some Anglican. 


[00:20:40] Ben: Let's start chipping away at this by degrees. You mentioned prayers that other people in the past have prayed. 


[00:20:47] Is it wrong to pray a prayer that someone else prayed? No 


[00:20:51] Gina: It depends. 


[00:20:52] Ben: So what do you mean? 


[00:20:53] Gina: It depends on who they're praying to. 


[00:20:56] Ben: Well, let's not go that far yet Let's say that there is even someone that you knew personally. We don't even need to go as far as historic prayers. 


[00:21:04] Gina: Joel Osteen and how he loves the repeat after me prayer. 


[00:21:09] Is that a bad thing to do? 


[00:21:11] Ben: Setting Joel Osteen aside. 


[00:21:13] Gina: No, I mean any church does that. 


[00:21:15] Ben: I'm using 


[00:21:15] Gina: him as a 


[00:21:15] Ben: scapegoat, but I would say no I don't think that it's inherently wrong. 


[00:21:19] Gina: No, I agree Yeah 


[00:21:20] Ben: to look at a person that you consider to be holy ahead of you in their walk with Christ and you see that and You see the closeness between them and God, and you want to have that. 


[00:21:30] So you say the same prayer, in that same spirit, trying to get closer to God. I don't think that's wrong. 


[00:21:36] Gina: No, I agree. 


[00:21:37] Ben: I do think that there can potentially be issues if that's All you do. 


[00:21:41] Gina: Right. There are some really beautiful like poems and songs and I think even those are things that people can use for prayer like to repeat lyrics or something like that. 


[00:21:52] I don't think that's inherently wrong, but I think it's all about intention 


[00:21:56] Ben: and in truth. That's ultimately what praise and worship is when we it. Back in the day when they would sing psalms. We don't tend to do that though There are some worship songs today that are based off of the psalms, but loosely But that's what the psalms were it was music Instrumentation that was meant to be used in service of praise to God. 


[00:22:17] And so when you do that, you're not making up songs yourself You're using songs that are pre written to try to exalt the Lord to try to bring yourself closer to him So yeah, I don't see that as 


[00:22:26] Cody: wrong. No, it touches on a couple points that we've discussed already one it can't be wrong to recite the same prayer and this has been a great issue throughout all of Christianity because the Lord's Prayer is the Lord's Prayer for a reason, just because somebody else prayed that doesn't mean I can't. 


[00:22:45] But that Abba figure that you mentioned, it removes all of the relational aspect out of prayer when you are only reciting other people's prayers. 


[00:22:55] Gina: If you think about it like the, the milk versus the solid food for baby that's described in scripture, like, For a new Christian, the recited prayer is probably the milk, and then as you grow confident, then you're able to kind of free verse whatever it is that you need to say to God. 


[00:23:15] But I do think that it gives you structure and teaches you. I don't think that it's wrong or that it hurts the relationship as long as you mature, and you are maturing, you're continuing to grow in your prayer walk as well. 


[00:23:29] Cody: I think it's good to connect. If you go read the Puritan prayers. Oh, they're so good. 


[00:23:35] Yeah, like it gives you like a different mindset than we have here in Western society of what these people were praying for and just their admiration towards God at that point. The average prayer at a church on Sunday doesn't even come close to glorifying God the way that some of those Puritan prayers do. 


[00:23:57] Ben: And I think you bring up a very interesting point in that when we're praying someone else's prayer. If we're doing it genuinely, we're taking ourselves, or trying to take ourselves, out of our own mindset and trying to insert ourselves into the mindset of someone else. We're not conforming to the patterns of this world, we are transforming ourselves by the renewing of our mind, according to scripture. 


[00:24:16] We are renewing our mind by trying to see things differently. We're trying to view God through the lens of someone else, and that's important, because through our own lens we can only see so much. Yeah, I think that is something that we miss a lot as non denominational, especially, there are Protestant traditions. 


[00:24:34] There are a lot of Lutherans, a lot of Anglicans who draw heavily from their own past, which does kind of lead into Catholicism, which does kind of lead in to the first church. And so there is a lot of beauty in tradition, and there is a lot of beauty in these prayers that you inherit. And when you think, okay, so the holy man who made this prayer. 


[00:24:54] I'm trying to be like that guy and he really knew God. Yeah. That's, there's a lot of beauty in that. 


[00:24:58] Cody: There is when people talk about that though. I do like to remind them like David's a big one. A lot of people want to be just like David and that's a good goal, but David only reached that goal because he was striving to be like God. 


[00:25:12] So you're going to be like a notch down. Then David was no matter what because you're not connecting with God You're trying to connect as David in that point and that I hear that a lot is oh I wish I could be like Paul, but even Paul talks about strive to be like me but points them to God as well 


[00:25:32] Ben: It's one thing to draw inspiration from these people and you absolutely should but to use them as the end all be all to say I want to be that you're right. 


[00:25:41] That is absolutely dangerous. Yep 


[00:25:43] Gina: I agree. But what a legacy to have your great grandpa's prayer. Like the family Bible they used to write when they were born and then when they died and they had their family prayers and just like beautiful legacy. We don't really have that. 


[00:25:58] Ben: Well, especially not in the non denominational churches. 


[00:26:02] Cody: There is a lot to tradition that I respect and wish that there was more of that. Yeah. And. non denominational or to an extent when you start putting tradition at the same level as scripture is when it's an issue, but that's another podcast for another day. 


[00:26:21] Ben: We'll be slightly touching on that in a little bit, but yes, that does deserve its own podcast entirely. 


[00:26:27] Cody: But one, one thing on even just reciting prayers is Bonhoeffer talks about church community and even when you're doing a communal prayer, you're taking the prayer that somebody else is praying and lifting it up together with them. So you're also praying that prayer with them, if that makes sense. You're not just reading it and the Puritan prayer, you read and recite something that somebody wrote down. 


[00:26:53] But even when you're praying with another person or for another person, you guys are joining in together to lift up that same prayer, those same words to God. 


[00:27:02] Gina: That's also a beautiful way to put it. Thank 


[00:27:05] Cody: you. That was Bonhoeffer, not me. I can't really 


[00:27:07] Gina: take credit 


[00:27:08] Cody: for that. But you just said it, so you get the credit. 


[00:27:11] Is that 


[00:27:11] Ben: how it works? 


[00:27:13] Gina: Listen, nothing new under the sun. 


[00:27:18] Ben: Checkmate. Okay. So that covers prayers that other people have prayed. And yeah, absolutely. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I don't think any of us use anything wrong with that. Praying to anything other than God. 


[00:27:32] Gina: Idolatry. 


[00:27:34] Ben: Let's address, again, address this in stages. 


[00:27:37] No, it's okay, because I happen to agree with you, but we do kind of need to build to that. As tough as it is. 


[00:27:43] Gina: No, it's the end. No, start it. 


[00:27:46] Ben: Idolatry. No, I mean, really, folks, to be honest, we could start and end it there. No, really, I think that all of our opinion here, I don't want to speak for her. I mean, yeah, at this point, Gina and I have spoken. 


[00:27:55] I don't know about Cody. But yeah, praying to anything other than God, I do think is not right. I do think is idolatry, but what do you think, Cody? 


[00:28:02] Cody: You'll find out my later. Okay, we'll build to that. 


[00:28:05] Ben: Ladies and gentlemen, the man of mystery. Okay, so we'll start with one of the lower tiers here. Praying to the dead, praying to the saints. 


[00:28:16] So this is a Catholic and I believe it's also 


[00:28:18] Gina: separate them into two separate things. 


[00:28:20] Ben: Technically, they are the same thing. It's not believe that you can pray to literally anyone who's dead. But we can address that specifically. Just praying to literally anybody who's dead. Can we do that? 


[00:28:31] Gina: I mean, can we? 


[00:28:32] Should we? 


[00:28:34] Cody: Are we going off of saint as the RCC describes it, you have to perform three miracles to become sainthood, or as the Bible describes it, anyone in Christ is a saint. 


[00:28:44] Ben: Technically you can do both. First, just praying to anyone who is dead. Can you do that? My question would be why? 


[00:28:54] Gina: Well, okay, my uncle just died. 


[00:28:55] Ben: Yeah, that's the thing. For some people who are Christians, you may be thinking, I don't know if my family member is saved. I don't know if they can hear me, but I would like to reach out to them in some way. I just want to still have some line of communication with them. I want to say something to them to let them know that I still love them and in some way keeps them alive in my memory and in my heart. 


[00:29:17] I can understand that sentiment, but what do you guys think? 


[00:29:20] Gina: I mean, I know what I believe on the afterlife based on what I've studied. But, the truth is, we don't know everything, okay? I mean, I believe that they're no longer on this earth, and they're not like, peeking down over clouds like cherubs in paintings, like, watching over us. 


[00:29:39] They're not. So, like, my uncle died in April. Can he hear me if I pray to him? No. Does it give my heart a sense of closure to maybe say something nice about him? Yes, but I don't pray to him. He can't hear me. He's either. You know, in heaven, or he's in the waiting period until Jesus comes back and we all go to heaven. 


[00:30:03] There are a lot of different camps there, but no, we cannot actually effectively pray to the dead. Now, there are sorcery examples in the Bible where, you People have awoken the dead and spoken to them. So I don't think it's impossible, but prayer to the dead. I don't think that's a thing 


[00:30:22] Ben: prior to the dead. 


[00:30:22] Let's say prayer to people who aren't Christian. Obviously, I don't think anyone is making a case for that. And perhaps if you're pagan, but as far as Christians go, and that's more or less what this podcast is for, I don't think anyone's making an argument for that, but the saints, as in both the Roman Catholic church version of saints and just the general body of believers, anyone who we know, love the Lord and then dies and goes to heaven. 


[00:30:47] Can we pray to them? 


[00:30:48] Gina: No. It's the same thing to me. 


[00:30:51] Cody: But even before that, even if you say yes or no, why? Why 


[00:30:56] Ben: would you? So there are different answers to both of those questions. The first, like I said, it's if you don't know, but you would like some measure of connection. Now I understand that, I understand the feeling of loss and the want to connect to someone who's not gone. 


[00:31:12] And there is the fear of the eventual just forgetting about them. The truth is that most people, even the people who knew and loved the person that you lost, they're not going to care after a certain amount of time. Not that they are cold and indifferent, but as time goes on, this person is not a part of their lives anymore. 


[00:31:30] And so they give them less and less thought, and maybe there's going to be the occasional thought about this person. But for you, for the person who's genuinely close to the person that you lost, I can say for my brother, like, he was a major part of my life, and when he died, part of me died with him. And it's a part of me I will never get back. 


[00:31:48] And you mourn for that part of you, and you want to reconnect with that part of you. He has that part with him, wherever he is. And it would be great to be able to connect with that. so much. And I'm sure I'm not the only person who feels that way. But the truth is that he's not here. One, I will go to him, he will not come to me. 


[00:32:06] That's what David said about his own son that he lost. There is a great separation between us, but they are only a breath away. That's the point. Eventually, you will reunite with them, but for now, there is that separation, and there is an intention to that separation. In the times where we feel that loss burdening us, we need to turn to Christ, not to them. 


[00:32:26] Because one, you don't even know if they can hear you. And two, even if they can, they're not God. They shouldn't be taking the place of God. But as far as praying to people who have died who are Christian, who are saints, there are actually some explanations that are given as to why you would do that. So I spent some time looking into that. 


[00:32:45] Frequenting some websites like catholicanswers. com and a few other places. There were some explanations given. And to be fair, they're not the worst that I've ever heard. As far as supporting something. The claim by the Catholic Church that I've seen for the most part, I don't know if this is universal amongst all Catholics, but the explanations I saw were that the saints in heaven can intercede on your behalf. 


[00:33:09] Just if I were to go to Cody or to you with a problem and say, Hey, could you guys pray for me? Yeah, obviously you guys would pray for me. And so obviously if I asked the saints in heaven who, assuming they can hear me, for now let's say that they can, would it be wrong for me to ask them to pray for me just like I would ask you guys to pray for me? 


[00:33:26] Especially if they're people who I knew and loved who are now dead and are now in heaven. Why wouldn't I ask them to pray for me? 


[00:33:32] Cody: That's going in with a lot of presuppositions. 


[00:33:34] Ben: Correct. But let's assume that those are right. Okay. Why not? Sure. So that, that, those are the presuppositions that Catholics are taking into this. 


[00:33:44] Cody: But where are they getting the source texts? Because a lot of the stuff that I saw as source texts for praying to the saints, like the only one in the 66, the Protestant Bible is Revelation. 


[00:33:58] Ben: So there are two parts to this. Uh, the first, so we'll get to Revelation in a second, but one of the reasons that they give for praying to anyone who is in heaven is Hebrews chapter 12 verses 1 through 2. 


[00:34:12] Yes. Therefore, since you're ahead of me, therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, And sin, which clings so closely and let us run with endurance the race set before us. Looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who, for the joy that was set before him, endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God. 


[00:34:36] So that great cloud of witnesses. What are they witnessing? The Catholic argument is that they are witnesses because they are witnessing us. They're watching us, they're cheering us on. Now, it's not that idea is necessarily wrong. We don't know what the church in heaven can see. 


[00:34:52] Gina: We don't even know if heaven is now. 


[00:34:54] Ben: Correct. We don't know. But we don't know if the dead in Christ can see us. Maybe they can. We don't know. But at the very least, they're rooting for us, aren't they? 


[00:35:02] Cody: Where does it say to pray to them in that though? 


[00:35:05] Ben: It doesn't. But the idea that they give is that because they can see us, because they can hear us, they We ask them, and because they are up in heaven, and they are rooting for us, they take intercessions to Jesus, just like the people on earth do. 


[00:35:19] And they're a step closer to him than we are. So why wouldn't we ask them for help? But that 


[00:35:22] Gina: implies that God is more attentive to those who are already dead. than those who are currently living. 


[00:35:29] Ben: Let's assume that he's not. Let's assume that he gives equal weight to the people in heaven versus the people here. 


[00:35:33] Then why 


[00:35:34] Gina: even bother? If he gives me Why would I 


[00:35:35] Ben: bother asking any of you to pray for me? 


[00:35:37] Gina: I don't know. I don't have the opinion that they're alive like that. 


[00:35:40] Ben: Prayer in numbers. 


[00:35:42] Gina: Two or more gathered in heaven is more powerful. 


[00:35:46] Ben: Again, it's not necessarily that it's more powerful. If I'm steelmanning the position, and I'm going off of the best explanation I saw, because there are some people who will take the position that, no, because they're in heaven, they have Jesus ear, and thus they have more authority than we do. 


[00:36:01] But there are some apologists who will say, no, that's not the case. They have the same weight that we do here. It's just, it's a, one, it's a way for you to continue to connect with the people who've died and who are in heaven. And two, it's just getting more people involved in the process of prayer. Like, I'm asking you guys to pray for me, and then I'm asking my grandparents or my parents to pray for me. 


[00:36:21] Gina: Or the patron saint of puppies. 


[00:36:23] Ben: Any number of things. Like, any number of, you know, people who are no longer with us but are up in heaven. Now, that is, oh, sorry, go ahead, go for it, Cody. 


[00:36:32] Cody: Isaiah 8, 19, when someone tells you to consult mediums and spiritualists who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? 


[00:36:42] Why consult the dead on behalf of the living? So, wouldn't that still be consulting the dead? So, 


[00:36:49] Ben: I would agree with you, but the Catholic apologists do reference that verse and they say that does not apply because they are asking for someone else to pray for you. It's not that you're inquiring of the dead of anything necessarily, it's that you are asking the dead to pray for you. 


[00:37:03] Cody: So you can only pray to the dead people. You can't ask someone to pray to the dead people for you. I 


[00:37:10] Gina: think you need to clarify whether it's just any Joe Schmo or if it's a saint. 


[00:37:14] Ben: So the Catholic Church's position is that it does have to be someone who is in heaven. Really, the only people you can be certain of as being in heaven are the saints. 


[00:37:23] Because if you were even a really good Catholic, if you die in a state I don't want to get too much into Catholic theology here because it's a bit complicated. We mentioned mortal and venial sins in the past. Essentially, if you've committed enough non grace threatening sins and you end up in purgatory, you're in a state of suffering and eventually you will suffer enough to the point where you're purified and you can go to heaven. 


[00:37:46] But if you die in a state outside of grace, so you commit a mortal sin, and you aren't forgiven of that sin in time, you're You die in a state outside of grace, you go to hell. 


[00:37:56] Gina: This sounds like a Disney movie. 


[00:37:58] Ben: It does a bit. But the point is that for most Catholics you cannot, and this is actually a very sad aspect of Catholic theology. 


[00:38:06] There was a woman I was listening to was being interviewed by Mike Winger. And she was talking about a conversation she once had with a Catholic bishop. And she asked the Catholic bishop if he was going to heaven. And he said, I genuinely don't know. That's a very sad response to hear from somebody. He genuinely didn't know if he was going to die in a state outside of grace and God was just going to send him straight to hell or not. 


[00:38:28] Or if he was going to die in a state where he had committed too many venial sins and would end up in purgatory and would have to wait a while till he was going to heaven. So yeah, in answer to your question, they do generally say prayer to the saints because the saints are the people they know are in heaven. 


[00:38:43] But hypothetically, if you knew someone really well and they're like, yeah, no, I know that person is definitely in heaven. Hypothetically, if they are in heaven, you could pray to them. 


[00:38:51] Cody: I don't even know how to respond to that. You have to, is there any other source text that they use besides? So yeah, there's that, and 


[00:39:00] Ben: then Romans, like you mentioned, Romans or 


[00:39:03] Cody: Revelations, 


[00:39:04] Ben: or sorry, Revelation. 


[00:39:04] Okay. So where was that? Revelations. Revelations. 


[00:39:09] Gina: It's only one, Cody. 


[00:39:10] Ben: So yeah, the second source text that they have, as far as scripture goes, it's, it's Is Revelation chapter five, verse six through eight, and between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders, I saw a lamb standing as though it had been slain with seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out over all the earth. 


[00:39:30] And he went and took the scroll from the right hand of him was seated on the throne, and when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the 24 elders fell down before the lamb, each holding a harp. And golden bowls of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. That last part is the important part according to Catholic apologists, because they claim that the 24 elders falling down before the lamb, they're holding golden bowls full of incense. 


[00:39:55] And those golden bowls per the, per the text are the prayers of saints. And the argument they're making is that because those 24 elders have bowls full of incense that represent the prayers of the saints, that means that saints in heaven can hear you and bring your prayers to God. I'll, I'll be honest with you guys, that's a leap. 


[00:40:18] That's an enormous leap. Like, 


[00:40:20] Cody: yeah, 


[00:40:20] Ben: I'll, I'll be honest. The previous scripture, it's the stronger of the two, but even that is a leap. 


[00:40:26] Gina: The problem that I have with this doctrine is that it takes the responsibility of the relationship between the believer and God and puts these middlemen, and I know from experience that in the Catholic Church, the middlemen are not just the saints and not just Mary, and not just Jesus, but then you have the priest and the hierarchy within the Catholic Church, and It just, it becomes so separated that then you're basically relying on other people to have a relationship with God for you and advocate for you instead of going to God yourself. 


[00:41:06] And I'm not saying that to be mean, it's just my own personal observation, having grown up in the Catholic Church and also having family that's Catholic now. They don't have the connection with God that I do as a Christian outside of the Catholic Church in prayer. That's not to say they don't have a relationship with God. 


[00:41:27] It's just they don't understand how to have that relationship the same way that non Catholics seem to. Is that unfair? 


[00:41:36] Ben: I don't know that's unfair. So, for this particular question, let's set up two scenarios here. Let's say that I have a very serious issue and I really need to pray about it. So what I do is I go out and I grab you, Gina, and you, Cody, and then I go send out a text thread to as many people from our church as possible, and I say, look, guys, this is something very serious, and I really need your guys help with this. 


[00:42:00] Could you all come together and pray for me? Or even not all come together, just everyone pray. And I know that everyone's praying, and everyone lets me know that they're praying. Even more powerfully, we all get together for a time of prayer, and we pray for one another. And there have been times where I've done that. 


[00:42:15] You, actual prayer groups, you come together and everyone starts praying for one another. It's a beautiful thing. Now, in the second scenario, I don't go to anyone. I don't go to you, Gina, or you, Cody. Literally, all I do is I pray to as many people, and as many saints, as I can. Will I get the same effect? 


[00:42:32] Gina: It's roulette. 


[00:42:34] God's gonna answer you one way or the other. 


[00:42:36] Ben: Sure, but it's not about whether or not God answers. In one instance, there's edification. Mutual edification between believers. There's a buildup of trust, of love, in an event where we're all praying, not just for me, but for one another. When I'm sitting by myself, and involving thousands of people, but it's just me in my room, it's not the same effect. 


[00:42:57] Assuming that the Catholic reasoning is right on this. 


[00:43:00] Gina: But, if you're Catholic, it's incredibly edifying to pray to the saints. 


[00:43:05] Ben: It's not edifying in the same way, on its face. If I go and I pray in person with a bunch of other people, I ask them what they need prayer for. We're building one another up. And even when you're praying for someone who is not Christian, if you ask someone, hey, I hear you have a problem, can I pray for you? 


[00:43:19] How often do people actually say no? 


[00:43:21] Gina: I've, I've been told no twice, ever. 


[00:43:23] Ben: It's very rare, and people actually really like it. You're letting them know that you care about them. 


[00:43:27] Cody: You're sharing the burden. I think that's how, how do you share the burden with people? A 


[00:43:32] Ben: dead saint. Thank you for putting it that way because I was struggling for the words to really Express what it is. 


[00:43:38] I was thinking but you're right. It is sharing the burden. You can't share the burden with the dead The only dead who can help you share your burden is christ and he's alive. 


[00:43:46] Gina: Amen We're done 


[00:43:49] Ben: But that's the reality here even trying to steal man this position as much as we can and say it's done in good faith It's two people that they genuinely believe can hear you and we don't know what the church can hear So let's say that they can hear you So, 


[00:44:08] Cody: how do you quantify, like, how do you quantify prayer then? 


[00:44:12] Because you're not going to always get what you want. I mean, there, there's power in numbers, but you're still not going to get what you want all the time. I mean, there's that entire church praying for that girl who died and they kept prolonging something and preventing the closure for that family for something that never happened. 


[00:44:32] So how do you, 


[00:44:34] Gina: I know what you're asking, like God says, no, no. And then, you know, your well meaning pastors like. Listen, God's not going to answer my prayer. You say that to your well meaning pastor, and they're like, don't put God in a box. Don't limit what he can do. He can do anything because Jesus and power and yay. 


[00:44:55] And then it's, but God has spoken and we're waiting for more, even though God has already spoken that kind of a thing. 


[00:45:02] Ben: Just as you said, when you're sharing the burden, you're sharing the burden either way. If the prayer is accepted, if God grants the prayer, if he answers your prayer. You all rejoice together, and if he says no, you all grieve together, but that's the point. 


[00:45:16] You do it together. I can tell you with 100 percent certainty if you try to grieve alone, you're gonna have a miserable time of it. And if you're grieving with the rest of your church, and you were all praying for something actively together, there's edification that you can go through in the process. 


[00:45:31] Gina: Like, 


[00:45:32] Ben: it's rough, but you can do it. 


[00:45:34] Gina: I just don't know if that exists in our non denominational culture. 


[00:45:37] Ben: Whether or not it exists in a specific culture that you have, The point is that it's possible when you gather people together and you pray and we're talking about the ideal just as we're steel manning the one position, you steel man the other. 


[00:45:49] Gina: No, I get it. But so I really do respect the reverence of the Catholic church and how they really do a good job of showing honor and glory to God in their prayers. There's a lot of reverence, even Though some of the prayers are, like, to Mary, they're still very complementary. We'll get to that. But I'm saying, like, our prayer life on, like, our side of things outside of the Catholic Church, being who we are, three people, I don't believe that we are nearly as reverent and as respectful as we should be. 


[00:46:28] So, like, we speak in ideals, but I'm, like, thinking that doesn't exist. 


[00:46:31] Ben: It's not that it doesn't exist. It's that it's an ideal that you haven't realized. It's that And by realized, I mean, I've achieved. 


[00:46:38] Gina: Yeah, no, but it's not us three as much as it's just like the entirety of the modern mainstream Christian Church right now. 


[00:46:48] Cody: Yeah, but you can argue with There is that? recital of prayer and this recital of reverence, but is it actual reverence, or is it just a facade that they put on because it's another motion to go through? That's what we see in our church, or not necessarily our church, but non denominational churches, is still people going through the motions. 


[00:47:12] It's just going to be, they're the Sunday Christian and that's it. And you can still have that with the tradition of Catholicism. Like you still have the people going through the motions that don't actually know why they're doing what they're doing. 


[00:47:27] Ben: Yeah, Jim Gaffigan, I don't know if any of you guys I 


[00:47:29] Gina: did not expect that. 


[00:47:32] Ben: Jim Gaffigan has a number of bits that he does because he's Catholic. He's like, I've never read the Bible. I don't have to, cause I'm Catholic. And he talks about, you know, being really bored at Mass. He's like, Ah, Ah, Ah, Amen already! I got sinning to do! And it's, yeah, there are a lot of Catholics who approach it that way. 


[00:47:50] I don't have to read the Bible, cause the Church is just gonna tell me everything I need to believe. I'm gonna go in, I'm gonna go to Mass, I'm gonna get forgiven of whatever, you know, venial or mortal sins I happen to have because I don't want to go to hell and I'm going to leave. It's there is that bare minimum that's met in all churches, no matter where you are. 


[00:48:05] And I get it. There is the idea that there's the untouchable, unknowable nature of God, and there is reverence in that. 


[00:48:12] Cody: But is that a persona? So we're talking about prayer here and praying to saints, but you almost have this untouchableness of God, like the RCC still kind of tries to Put the Levitical Old Covenant priesthood in place where you need this represent to our of God to commune on your behalf. 


[00:48:40] The high priest can only go into the Holy Holies once a year and He has to atone for the entire nation during that time And you still, even with how confession works and prayer works, it's almost you have to have this middle man, the Catholic church being the middle man to get to God. Agreed. 


[00:49:03] Ben: There are some other issues with the steel man version of praying to saints that, that exists. 


[00:49:10] For one, how many people after they said a prayer to a saint immediately then start praying to Jesus? Ultimately, these prayers are treated as substitutions and it's not what I 


[00:49:20] Gina: was kind of hinting at before. 


[00:49:21] Ben: Yeah, it's not really that because when you're praying with other people or asking them to pray, like again, I wouldn't come to you guys and say, Hey, could you pray for me? 


[00:49:30] Thanks. And then that's like, Ooh, I'm glad I got that off my chest, but you guys are holier than me. So, you know, God's more likely to listen to you guys. I'm just me. But that 


[00:49:41] Gina: brings. It's up a really good point for somebody like me who became a Christian as an adult. It's very easy to fall into the trap of believing that other people have special reaching capabilities with God. 


[00:49:53] Like, oh such and such has the spiritual gift of tongues, so their tongues must mean something more than my prayers because, and it's like stupid misconceptions that you come up with in your own mind and nobody teaches you that. But it's very easy to fall into that trap, and that's a good point to make. 


[00:50:11] Ben: Absolutely. And I do find that most of the stumbling points, not just in church history, but in our own individual daily lives. It comes from the idea that, okay, we need to have someone special, give unto us a king. It's something that Israel had. They had the judges, they had their system, God was their king. 


[00:50:28] It says repeatedly throughout the entire book of Judges, every man did as he saw fit. As tough as some of those times were, that was the time where God was the king of Israel. Then eventually they're like, okay, all the other nations on earth have kings. We gotta have a king. And then God said, okay, you guys can have a king. 


[00:50:45] He told Samuel, give them a king, but recognize that this is them rejecting me and choosing a king of their own. We have this, as humans, I genuinely believe this, we have this impulse to think, okay, there has to be someone out there better than me, because I don't know what I'm doing. And there has to be someone out there, because I see all these people and they seem so smart, and they seem so competent. 


[00:51:05] They have to know what they're doing. I want them, I want what they have. And I want them to be able to tell me just what I'm doing wrong. I just want a clear answer. 


[00:51:15] Gina: Why did you just have to describe our freaking political system? 


[00:51:20] Ben: And that's ultimately that's not what the founders wanted. One, the founders didn't want to constantly be referred to as the founders. 


[00:51:26] They didn't want to be pedestalized and viewed as these ultimate holy men. But the forefathers. But there is value in referring to them and their faith, because the truth is as flawed as they are. And the more you learn about them, the more you realize how flawed a man they were. And they would all admit to it. 


[00:51:43] They were great men and flawed men. But one of their biggest commonalities was that they all loved the Lord. And I know there's a lot of people who say, No, they were all secular and humanists and just theists. No, they weren't. Like, We do 


[00:51:58] Gina: have a way of always wanting to be led, and I think that's, it's why God calls us sheep. 


[00:52:05] Ben: In many ways, yeah. 


[00:52:07] Gina: But we're more like goats, because we'll eat anything. 


[00:52:09] Ben: But the thing is, each of us is called to be led individually by God. Now, there will be leaders, but we're stressed repeatedly. Throughout all of the Bible, all the kings of Israel were horrible. Even the good kings were horrible. All of them. 


[00:52:24] Gina: But they wrote pretty poems. 


[00:52:26] Ben: Yeah, David wrote pretty poems, and he also did a lot of horrible things. The Bible repeatedly stresses the only perfect person is God himself. The only person who should rule in your life is God himself. There are people who can help you with that, help you along in your journey. 


[00:52:39] But you have to recognize them for who they are. They're not perfect people. They're not meant to be kings. They're meant to be guides. But yeah, as far as prayer to the saints, because we do need to kind of loop this back. Prayer to the saints. What do you guys think? Is that okay? Is this a rib or spine issue? 


[00:52:54] And then do you agree with it or disagree with it? 


[00:52:56] Gina: I view prayer to anybody but God or the Holy Spirit or Jesus as idolatry. I don't believe that any man ever created outside of Jesus has any kind of power or authority to grant prayers or to accomplish anything after they're dead. And do I think it's comforting for some people? 


[00:53:20] Probably, but I do find it to be a form of idolatry and I don't think that it is the best way to pray. 


[00:53:28] Cody: I just don't get the point. If I could go directly to the source, why would I involve dead people that I can't commune with or talk with or get support from? 


[00:53:39] Gina: There are Growing up, we did All Saints Day and had the little handbooks of who the Saints were and what their lives were, and there were some really interesting movies about some of the Saints and things that they did. 


[00:53:53] So there, there is a certain amount of, I don't know, feeling understood or feeling like you're not alone because you find, uh, A saint that has this really inspirational story, or they've done something or lived through something that you have. And I could see how it would be comforting or it would be inspirational or it would make you feel like, Oh, they're the patron saint of whatever it is that I'm worrying about. 


[00:54:16] And so therefore it doesn't hurt to add them in for whatever I'm praying for. But like Ben mentioned, like, if that's your end all be all, and you're like, okay, patron saint of whatever, this is what I need, please help me. And then you're done and you don't go to God. There's a major problem there, but also not understanding that God is the patron God of everything. 


[00:54:38] You don't have to go to the individual saint when you have the source. Like, I can see it both ways, but ultimately it's still idolatry. 


[00:54:47] Ben: I have a lot of issues with this specific doctrine. And while I've done my best to present the steel manned version of this, the reality is, there's no real good argument for the steel manned position, except that it is the position of the Catholic Church, and the Catholic Church deems its dogma to be infallible. 


[00:55:05] If you go from the perspective of, okay, that's fine, whatever, but I want to see it in the Bible, you're not going to find it. And for the two verses that we just quoted, and that's all over the place as far as the Catholic apologists sites are concerned, and I tried really hard to find more justification, this is basically it. 


[00:55:24] Those two verses, Hebrews and Revelation, those do not talk about being able to pray to the saints. At best, you can say that the saints are aware of us, and no one knows that for sure. At worst, they don't. They just know that we're here, and we know, they know about the general struggles, just like we can know about the general struggles of the church in China. 


[00:55:45] Yeah, I know that the church in China exists and I could pray for them as much as I want. I don't know them. I can't hear their prayers. And beyond that, if you are wrong, what are you praying to? It's like what, Cody, the, what was the verse? Isaiah 8, 19. 


[00:56:00] Cody: Do you want me to read it again? 


[00:56:01] Ben: Please, just as a refresher. 


[00:56:03] Cody: When someone tells you to consult mediums and spiritualists who whisper and mutter should not a people inquire of their God, why consult the dead on behalf of the living? 


[00:56:16] Ben: So yeah, at best you're talking to someone in heaven who can't have a relationship with you, and you could be talking to people on earth and you're substituting prayer to Christ for prayer to someone who then talks to Christ rather than you talking to someone. 


[00:56:32] Asking them to pray for you and simultaneously with them praying to Christ in a way that is not mutually beneficial to both parties who are praying. That's the best. At worst, you're doing something evil that's forbidden by the Bible. That's at worst. Now there may be some space in between where it's you're just talking to nobody, 


[00:56:50] Gina: but it's not God Correct, and that kind of attention is something God forbids. 


[00:56:58] Cody: Is prayer a form of worship? 


[00:57:00] Gina: Yes, 


[00:57:01] Ben: how 


[00:57:01] Cody: why what do you think? 


[00:57:03] Ben: Yes, there's what I think what what Ben believes and then there's the Catholic response, which oddly enough is yes and no But from my position, yes, absolutely it is You So that right there would be idolatry. Correct. Yeah. Idolatry. And that is actually the biggest point. 


[00:57:21] It's that you are doing something that is reserved for God, an honor reserved for God, and you are applying it to people. Now that's if you assume. that prayer is worship, but for obvious reasons, Catholics don't view prayer as worship necessarily. 


[00:57:38] Cody: So they view it as like veneration, which is like reverence, correct? 


[00:57:43] Ben: Yes. Okay. So yeah, that, that does beg the next question. Okay. Is prayer worship? We would all say yes. And one of the big reasons that we would say that is because one, every time someone says a prayer to anything other than God in the Bible, anywhere, it's idolatry. Literally, you will not find a point where anyone prays to anything that is not God and is not considered idolatry. 


[00:58:05] There are points where people attempt to pray to angels, and they say, no, don't do that. Correct. I'm pretty sure 


[00:58:12] Gina: Catholics pray to angels, too. They do. 


[00:58:14] Cody: They view them as saints, though. Yes. So there's St. Michael, St. Gabriel. They're still saints, but they're angels. Revelation 19. 10 is one of those 


[00:58:22] Ben: ones where the angels, nope, they And it's also found in Daniel, I believe, where Daniel attempts to pray before Gabriel, and Gabriel says, no, I'm a servant, don't pray to me. 


[00:58:32] There are multiple points throughout the Bible where people try to pray to things that aren't, that are godly people, and then they're just warned, no, don't do that. I 


[00:58:40] Cody: think Peter even does that, I think, to Cornelius or something. 


[00:58:45] Gina: There's a story where, I can't remember which prophet, presents food, like cooks food for an It's like an offering, and the angel destroys it. 


[00:58:54] Angels do not want us to offer or pray to them. Yeah, 


[00:58:57] Cody: but I think they ate something with Abraham, I think. 


[00:59:00] Gina: Angels? 


[00:59:01] Cody: Yeah. And some people, it was two angels and what people would say is Jesus, the angel of the Lord specifically. 


[00:59:10] Ben: And so a lot of the, the backup that Catholics will bring into this is not scripture based, but tradition based. 


[00:59:18] And so they'll point to certain people like origin and they'll say origin, uh, That's a bad one to pick. Well, but that's the thing that blows my mind about this. I'm sorry. Genuinely, anyone who's Catholic and you're listening to this and you think that we're picking on you or we're lying about things, I know that you've been told certain things. 


[00:59:34] There are a number of Catholic apologists who will come forward and say, okay. Origin definitely said it's okay to pray both to saints and to angels. And to back this up, I actually included some of this. I was gonna say, I saw 


[00:59:46] Cody: his, but I didn't put it, because he's kind of viewed as a heretic for his view on Jesus. 


[00:59:52] It depends. 


[00:59:52] Gina: Some of this, too, is Almost, I don't want to compare it, but it's almost kind of like the Mormon church where you have to get in deep enough and then they start telling you what they really believe, but it's not layman's sort of information. The 


[01:00:07] Cody: thing with Catholicism, though, is like, even throughout history before Internet existed, like, all of this stuff was written down and tracked and after the Reformation, when they couldn't hide everything, you could look up this information as. 


[01:00:22] Kind of the average person. Yeah, 


[01:00:24] Gina: but my point is the average person the average Catholic isn't Taking it this far 


[01:00:31] Ben: Agree, there's a lot of surface level thought and that's why I do think that there are people who Participate in prayer to the saints and prayer to mary and we'll get into that in a second What what i'm 


[01:00:39] Gina: saying is like there may be catholics who are listening that are like we don't do that 


[01:00:43] Cody: I don't know a catholic who hasn't said a hail mary though Yeah, that's it. 


[01:00:46] No, 


[01:00:46] Gina: but some of the other prayers and things that you guys have included. I grew up in the catholic church I'm i'm Literally family friends with the Archbishop of Toronto, been to so many masses it's not even funny, and never heard some of this stuff. 


[01:00:59] Ben: That's understandable, and honestly, there are going to be things in the Bible that people who are Protestant have never heard of either, and we're more or less all Sola Scriptura, which means Bible above everything else, so you would think we would know everything about it, and we don't. 


[01:01:12] Cody: It's a lot easier to pick apart. Catholicism on this though, because of their viewpoint on infallibility of tradition in the church, because all of this, like some of the stuff we put in was either spoken directly by the Pope, which is the Vicar of Christ, who is the placement of Christ on earth is what they believe. 


[01:01:32] And. Either that or just the Vatican's stamp of approval from other people who wrote these. 


[01:01:39] Ben: But even, not going with it, like, there was a recently kind of a back and forth, I think it was a few months ago, between Dr. Gavin Ortland, who's, he's a PhD specifically in church history. He really knows his church history. 


[01:01:51] And there was a Catholic apologist who was having a back and forth with him specifically on the subject. about the prayer to saints. And I encourage everyone to look up Dr. Gavin as well as his videos on this subject because he's very thorough and he does his homework and he puts screenshots up of literally everything and he gives you the full context. 


[01:02:06] But essentially the Catholic apologist who was arguing with him that you can pray to the saints and origin from way back in the day. Like third century I think is origin. So they're trying to make the connection that prayer to the saints was accepted in the very, very early church and thus is okay. 


[01:02:20] Because it's been there from the very beginning. And to support this, he cites Origen, Contra Celsus, 864. We may indeed boldly say that men who aspire after better things have, when they pray to God, tens of thousands of sacred powers upon their side. These, even when not asked to pray with them, they bring succor to our mortal race, and if I may so say, take up arms alongside of it, for they see demons warring and fighting most keenly against the salvation of those who devote themselves to God and despise the hostility of demons. 


[01:02:55] In there, just from that segment, it seems to be that Origen is saying that the angels and the saints in heaven, even when not asked, are praying for us. Which is kind of what you get in the Revelation depiction. Yeah, I don't think that once you die, you completely forget that the church exists. 


[01:03:11] Gina: I think the holdup for me is that I don't believe that, I don't know, I don't know what I believe yet on what defines the church, like that specific word in that verse. 


[01:03:23] Do I believe that all Christians that have ever died are included? In that grouping. I don't know about that 


[01:03:29] Ben: So the early church from what everything that i've seen Genuinely did believe that the church in heaven was aware of us Because obviously they would be at the very least because you see that in 


[01:03:39] Gina: renaissance art and different things like that 


[01:03:41] Ben: Yeah, and I don't think that's unreasonable as far as how much they know. 


[01:03:45] We don't know but Specifically as far as origin is concerned. He did not believe you could pray to anyone in heaven. You can only take that position if you've read tiny bits of Origen and not read the rest of them. So yeah, the whole case rests on, essentially, a few cherry picked areas from Origen. This is what Origen says specifically about praying to angels in, against Celsus, because Celsus was a guy who was kind of taking up a, Contrary position, there was a bit of an arch nemesis type thing between Origen and Celsus. 


[01:04:13] But yeah, he specifically says in, again, Celsus 5. 4, having thus learned to call these beings angels from their employments, we find that because they are divine, they are sometimes termed God in the sacred scriptures. But not so that we are commanded to honor and worship in place of God those who minister to us and bear to us His blessings. 


[01:04:34] Essentially, don't pray to angels. It doesn't matter what we think they are. It doesn't matter if they're referred to in some way as God in scripture, or lowercase g. They're not gods, don't pray to them, don't worship them. He says this about the saints. He says this about everyone who's died, all the angels in heaven. 


[01:04:48] And he says this at multiple points. I'm not going to go through all of it. I wish I had the time to do all of them, but I feel that would be a bit excessive. It's enough to say that Origen was very clear, and he stated it multiple times throughout multiple books, because he was adamant about this position, because what's tempting us now is not unique to us. 


[01:05:04] It was tempting them then. They wanted to reach out to the dead, and they wanted to reach out to people other than the dead. And it was very clear to Origen, as well as many other early church fathers, no, don't do it. 


[01:05:14] Cody: Again, that's where, like, why would I, even if Origen confirmed it, why would I take his word for it when I'm not seeing anything in Scripture about it? 


[01:05:24] If I'm supposed to test everything and that's what the Bible tells me to do, why, why would I believe what some guy said? And don't get me wrong. I love. Early church fathers, you know, a lot of wisdom, like I love reading those guys and origin, I actually enjoy even with his controversial, controversial, he's a heretic, but like he did so much great things for the, the hexapod and like all of this stuff that he did great things for what we have today, but why would. 


[01:05:55] I take what he says, if I can't see that in scripture at all. 


[01:05:59] Ben: I think the ultimate question is, because you're right, it's irrelevant. One, it's not what Origen said, but two, even if it was what he said, even if we just said that throughout all of church history, past literally the first church, because we have what the first church believed in the form of scripture. 


[01:06:14] But past that point, let's say that they all started praying to the saints and praying to angels. Do we do that now? And no, the answer is no. 


[01:06:21] Gina: This can all be tied back to the Lord's Prayer too. That's Jesus says, pray like this, our Father, not Mary, not saints. Thank you so much for taking the time to listen to our podcast today. 


[01:06:36] If you liked what you heard, please feel free to subscribe and share and leave a positive review. And if you would like to connect with us on social media, you can do so on Instagram and Facebook at the link below. The logic of God. You can also send us an email at Maine dot the Logic of god@gmail.com. 


[01:06:55] Thanks again for listening. We hope you have a great day.

What is Wesleyanism?

[00:00:00] Cody: Hi, thank you for tuning in to the Logic of God podcast. I'm Cody. 


[00:00:20] Gina: I'm Gina. 


[00:00:21] Cody: And I'm Ben. If you're returning, thank you for coming back and if you are a new guest, welcome. 


[00:00:36] Ben: Okay, so last time we covered John Calvin, today we're going to be covering John Wesley and Wesleyanism. To start with, just a kind of brief summary of John Wesley and who he was. Wesley was an English Christian minister who lived in the early 18th century, so the 1700s. While he was training to become an Anglican minister, he started a small group that carefully and methodically examined the Bible. 


[00:00:59] To learn how to live holy lives and their dedication to this methodical approach was how they got the name Methodist and they eventually became the Methodist Church. Wesley developed a very strong belief in the power of the Holy Spirit. He had a two year stint in America, specifically I believe it was in Savannah, Georgia. 


[00:01:16] which he didn't find to be super fruitful, and then he came back from that trip to America, and then he had a very deep spiritual experience, and it's from that that he developed his great faith in the Holy Spirit, and as a result of that, he started teaching Christians to focus on the need for the Holy Spirit to empower their lives and actions. 


[00:01:36] His teachings are not only the foundation for Methodism, but a few other different Protestant denominations. They're not so well known. The Wesleyan Church, the Church of God, which is in Anderson, Indiana, and the Church of the Nazarene. I really only had heard of the Church of the Nazarene prior to looking a lot of this stuff up. 


[00:01:53] The other ones, they seem a bit smaller, but that's just the way Protestantism is. We just have tons and tons of denominations. 


[00:01:59] Cody: Yep, there's lots. Yeah. 


[00:02:01] Ben: So yeah, the main. Brunt of what Wesley taught was the four alls. All need to be saved, all can be saved, all can know they are saved, and all can be saved to the uttermost. 


[00:02:15] Yeah, let's break that down a bit. What does all need to be saved mean, according to Wesley? 


[00:02:19] Cody: It's very similar to Calvinism. They believe in, not necessarily to the extent of total depravity, but the Romans all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Wesley was very adamant about that, that we're all sinners and need a Savior. 


[00:02:36] Ben: Yeah, and I think we all still agree on that. 


[00:02:39] Gina: Yeah. All 


[00:02:41] Ben: right. So yeah, has any of, have any of us changed our opinions on that since the last time we talked about it? Anything we feel like we should probably add to this? 


[00:02:48] Cody: You mean I can't save myself? 


[00:02:50] Ben: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's what we're saying. You can't save yourself. 


[00:02:53] Cody: But if I'm a Wesleyan, I save myself, right? 


[00:02:59] Ben: I think you're skipping ahead a little bit. 


[00:03:02] Cody: I'm too intertwined with the Calvinism we just spoke about. 


[00:03:06] Ben: Yes. I guess we're starting to get into free will now. This is dangerous territory. Is there anything we want to add to this? Anything that we haven't already said? 


[00:03:13] Gina: I think the idea of needing to be saved is a spectrum. If you consider all of the different doctrines and churches and cults that we've gone over recently, you have the ultimate spectrum of, on one end you've got Calvinism and we're all totally depraved from birth. And then you have the other end, which is that we're born innocent and corrupted by this world. 


[00:03:38] And I think Wesleyanism falls in the center, because it acknowledges, like, the sin nature, but it doesn't go as far as calling us fully depraved. 


[00:03:48] Cody: I don't think Wesley believes in the, you're completely and utterly hopeless without the regeneration. 


[00:03:55] Ben: I don't know, from what I saw, and I could be wrong about this, but from what I saw, it was the pastor that I heard these four points from, did specifically say that Wesleyanists and Calvinists do agree that we are born into this world sinful and we desperately do need God to save us. 


[00:04:13] Gina: Yeah, but there's a difference between the sin nature and then the depraved, like total depravity. 


[00:04:20] Ben: I think at the very least there is a difference in attitude, I agree. Just the word depravity. It's this idea that we're this disgusting sludge that takes a kind of human shape. And all of us are just terrible, and awful, and not worth saving. 


[00:04:36] And God, in his infinite mercy, has decided to select a handful. Just a small handful, and saved them himself because these terrible, disgusting, sludge creatures couldn't possibly do anything to earn his favor and can't be lovable in and of themselves. He makes them lovable. Now there's aspects of that I absolutely do agree with, but it's the attitude, the approach to it. 


[00:05:00] I think, whereas Wesley was much more, no, we're worth saving. God loves us. We're made in his image. And yes, we are born sinful. We're born with a capacity for sin, but God does love us. And God is the one who encourages us to turn to him. He's still vital to the process and it's through the Holy Spirit that happens, but it's still us choosing. 


[00:05:20] So there has to be something in us, some echo of the divine, you could say. That's calling us back to God. 


[00:05:28] Cody: Yeah, I think the mentality behind it goes into the second all, like all can be saved. It's not just the select few. It's not going to limit you. Wesleyanism is big on free will and choice and goes against the irresistible grace and all of that. 


[00:05:45] You have a choice inside of you. You can reject the Holy Spirit if you want to, you can reject the gospel message, but all are capable of accepting it in the inverse of that. 


[00:05:57] Ben: So yeah, let's flow then into the second all, so all can be saved, because you already touched on this. So for Wesleyanism, the summation of the second point, all can be saved, is that Christ's sacrifice on the cross was for everyone, not just for a select few, which is what Calvin believed. 


[00:06:14] Not everyone will be saved, but it is possible for anyone to accept Christ's sacrifice and be saved. And there are a couple of verses that Wesleyans will give to support this. First is 1 John 2, verse 2. 


[00:06:34] Of the whole world. And then there's also one Timothy chapter two verses one through four. I urge them, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgiving be made for all people, for kings and all those in authority that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 


[00:06:52] This is good and pleases God, our savior, who wants all people to be saved. And to come to a knowledge of the truth. So God wants us to come to a knowledge of the truth. If we don't have the ability to choose, then we couldn't come, God would force us. So the implication here is that we are capable of coming to the truth, of knowing it. 


[00:07:14] And I agree with that interpretation of the scripture. Just to be open, I'm definitely not a Calvinist. I don't know if you guys got that implication, that feeling from last time. But yeah, I'm much more Wesleyan and I don't know that I would say my say I'm a hundred percent Wesleyan or anything I don't really like pinning myself 100 percent to any individual given doctrine But I will say that of the two I definitely have a lot more sympathy for the Wesleyan Interpretation of the world than the Calvinist, but what do you guys feel like can all be saved? 


[00:07:46] Gina: There are people in this world that are hard to love But yes, they can be saved 


[00:07:53] Cody: Could Judas have been saved? Yeah, I think he could have. 


[00:07:56] Gina: Could we have been saved without Judas? 


[00:07:59] Cody: What do you mean? 


[00:08:00] Gina: If he didn't do what he did, then it wouldn't have happened the way that it happened. 


[00:08:04] Ben: I still think it was possible for God's sacrifice to happen without the need for a betrayer. 


[00:08:10] The question for a lot of this is, did the prophecies force this event to happen, or did the prophecies exist because the event happened? And this goes into God's eternal nature, and him perceiving all time as the presence, and there's a lot of rabbit holes that we can go down there. Since we don't know anything for certain, I don't know that's super helpful. 


[00:08:30] Gina: Scripture tells us that in order for us to have a good relationship with God, we have to forgive others. So, how could it be acceptable to hold unforgiveness against Judas, specifically, or anybody, if not everybody could be saved? Did that make sense? 


[00:08:48] Cody: Kind of, I get where you're going, and that's a modern topic that is going back and forth in academia. 


[00:08:56] Ben: I'm not involved in acting. No, 


[00:08:58] Cody: but like the idea of basically the different standards of God, because God tells us to love our enemy, but all throughout scripture, he punishes the enemies and kills them and brings his wrath and judgment. So there's the big back and forth there. So we can't, I don't think we can put God in that box. 


[00:09:22] Gina: No, but we're putting ourselves into. A box, you can either say that, and I'm basing this on my assessment of the Calvinists that I know who assess the salvation of other people, whether they are elect or not. by their behaviors or attitudes or things that the Calvinist person disagrees with. So if our assessment of somebody's salvation is based on basically their forgivability, then how are we aligning with scripture? 


[00:09:52] Because I believe that All can be saved, but if we're judging that and we're holding that on forgiveness through judgment, then we're not really doing what we're supposed to be doing. 


[00:10:03] Ben: If we were to say that not all can be saved, the question is what would exclude someone from even the possibility of being saved at any point in their lives? 


[00:10:12] There are a few different stages to this question. One, just from the outside, can anyone be saved? Then two, if not, what precludes you from being saved? And then three, is this something that precludes you from being saved at any point? As in, could you have been saved up to that point? Or does that sin somehow just corrupt your entire life pre and post that decision? 


[00:10:33] Or is it just something that is about you? You were born with a sin that keeps you from being saved? So yeah, there's those three stages of that question. So one, do we believe that anyone can be saved? 


[00:10:43] Gina: Mm hmm. Yep. 


[00:10:45] Ben: I agree. But for the sake of argument, let's say that there's someone here who said no. Then what could possibly be something? 


[00:10:51] Could we even think of something that makes it so that it's impossible for someone to be saved? 


[00:10:57] Cody: I've heard the, uh, somebody's committed the unforgivable sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit. And some other people have brought up, I think it's in 1 John, about the sin that brings death rather than an alternative sin. 


[00:11:15] I wish I had it memorized, but 


[00:11:16] Ben: I'm this. It's a weird part because Paul does his Paul thing, whereas there is sin that does lead to death. I'm not saying you should talk about that. There is some sin that does not lead to death. And we are talking about that sin, not the sin that does lead to Paul. What do you want about, but yeah, I, I know what you're talking about. 


[00:11:33] And I would say that even for the people who commit the unforgivable sin, cause I do genuinely believe that there is such a thing. And. The Bible even indicates this because there's the devil. The question is, if literally anyone can be saved, could the devil be saved? The answer is no. As far as I've seen in the Bible, there is no evidence that the devil could be saved. 


[00:11:54] And then the question is, why couldn't he? At one time, he was. At one time, he was an angel of light, and he was good and he was pure. He chose to reject that. And there's a part in the Bible that talks about, and we have addressed this before, it is impossible for someone who has been in the presence of the Holy Spirit and has known God's goodness to have tasted that and then rejected to come back. 


[00:12:15] Because at that point, you have rejected God with full knowledge and understanding. Now, even then, I still say, Anyone can be saved, but once you get to that point, once you have been saved, and then you know God fully, and then you fully reject him, at that point you have made your decision. But even then, you had been saved up to that point, and a Calvinist would say that no, you actually were never saved. 


[00:12:36] That decision actually precludes you prior to that and post that. You were just never saved at all because of that decision. I would disagree. I would say that at that point, you were saved. But then that does beg the question, why didn't God just kill you before you had a chance to reject Him? 


[00:12:51] Cody: Jonathan Why are we even here then? 


[00:12:53] If that's the question, why, why was there Satan? Like, why is there this choice of good and evil and the original sin as Augustine would argue of Adam and Eve? But like, why is there this great enemy of God if he could just snap his fingers and it go away? What do you think, Gina? 


[00:13:15] Gina: To take it in a different direction, scripture says that we will know God's voice and that we will know the fruits that come from him. 


[00:13:24] And if we have heard his voice and have experienced his fruits, and then fallen away from that to justify. The lack of salvation because they never had it would be wrong because they've heard his voice and they've had his fruits. And so, like, to me, the accusation of, well, you were never saved to begin with is more like one of insecurity than anything else. 


[00:13:51] I don't know. That's where I'm at. 


[00:13:53] Ben: In a sense, I understand where the idea comes from, because I think it's a human attempt to try to say that God didn't make a mistake. It's viewing the idea that. God, if he was truly just, would have prevented you from making such a terrible mistake that he could never save you, so he reasonably would have stopped you, some way, from making that decision. 


[00:14:15] I don't know that I follow that logic, though. I do think 


[00:14:19] Cody: You teeter on a weird form of universalism as you go down that path. Yes. 


[00:14:23] Ben: There's that, and then there's also, okay, so he kills you and then you're up in heaven. You're still the same person. You were still already on that path that would have led you to reject him. 


[00:14:34] You are still that person. So the question is, does him killing you before you make that decision somehow change you into a different person, or are you still that person? 


[00:14:42] Gina: If you look at a person who has an addiction issue, they say, Oh, I'm an alcoholic. I've been sober eight years, but I'm still an alcoholic. 


[00:14:50] Like, You always think in terms of, I could fall away very easily. I could turn back to the sin that separates me from God very easily, and I'm choosing not to, but I could succumb to it at any time. That doesn't change God's love for me. It doesn't change my ability to repent again and come back, but we're all sin addicted. 


[00:15:14] And like cineholics and we may be, you know, sober from that for a time, but we're all going to fall short and we always have to come back and repent. And I think salvation can be very contingent upon our repentance. So 


[00:15:32] Ben: I think there is another way to ask this question and it's are all saved because there is the Unitarian Universalist idea. 


[00:15:40] It's just everyone is saved. It's similar to what the Mormons think, although they do think that there are a handful of people who are just so evil and disgusting that they will be just pushed away from everyone else. But the vast majority of people are light. They're good. They will be saved. What would you guys say to someone who takes that position? 


[00:15:57] Gina: What would be the point in pursuing him and getting to know him? If I had a free ride scholarship, I would To heaven and I was like, all right, I'm set like I can goof off. I can waste time I don't have to love people. I don't have to do anything, right? He loves me That's like the way that we treat our parents as entitled Millennials according to everybody like no, 


[00:16:20] Ben: I sure I agree with you But to play the devil's advocate here like in first Timothy chapter 2 it does talk about how You know, God wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 


[00:16:32] If God wants all people to be saved, then why wouldn't all people be saved? Just automatically. It's the point that 


[00:16:38] Cody: Calvinists make against this verse. 


[00:16:41] Ben: That's why I'm being intentional about this. It's 


[00:16:43] Cody: a good point. 


[00:16:44] Ben: Are you expecting me to argue this alone, Cody? I want to hear you. I'm not trying to pin you up into a corner or anything. 


[00:16:51] No, it's okay. It's just, I know Cody knows what he wants to say. Set him up for a layup, but we know Cody's, you know, had a lot of legwork done on this and like you, you've had a lot of practice debating a lot of this kind of stuff, but I am genuinely interested to hear what you have to say on it. Agreed. I mean, God can want all 


[00:17:12] Gina: He wants. 


[00:17:12] That doesn't mean people are going to choose Him. The word wants is the word that sticks out to me the most in that verse. And of course God wants all people. There's one of my life verses is that God is not slow at keeping His promises, but He is making it so that it's possible for all people to go to Him. 


[00:17:31] And if we didn't, first of all, if we didn't have a choice. in either direction. Like we, if we didn't have a choice to love God and obey God, but then we didn't have a choice to disobey God, there would be absolutely no point in the relational aspects that we have with God. 


[00:17:50] Cody: That's what I would say, if you take either to the logical end, they don't have a good logical cohesion, because it's pointless, either way you take it. 


[00:18:00] Universalism, if you take it to its full extent, nothing you do matters anyway, so why even try? Same thing with Calvinism, nothing you do matters anyway, so why even try? There, there is no logical point to existence in either one of those worldviews. And that's why I think a Wesleyan or a conditional atonement makes more sense is there is still this pursuit aspect and that's God wants us, but he doesn't need us. 


[00:18:29] And I think people confuse that and so this God, he needs us to worship him. He doesn't need anybody. He wants relationship. He wants community. He wants certain things, but he's not going to force that on you. And I think we've talked about it. Some of the podcasts are molding together right now. The we've talked about, I think the idea of having kids, or if you have kids, if you force somebody to do anything, you're having more of a robotic relationship. 


[00:19:01] That means nothing if you're forcing anybody to do anything. So the only way that it would even make any sense or be relational at all is to have a option to choose one way or the other. 


[00:19:15] Ben: I think where a lot of the conflict in this particular question comes from is the idea that God is all powerful. If he's all powerful and wants something, it should be possible for him to get the thing that he wants. 


[00:19:31] I think the issue there is actually, that's not technically true. Because in order for him to get everything that he wants in that way, he would have to make things that are mutually exclusive happen. And we've discussed in the past what exactly it means for God to be all powerful. And we had that talk about how can he make a rock so heavy that he can't lift it? 


[00:19:52] Can he make someone more powerful than himself and still beat that guy in a fist fight? What's generally been said, the position of guys like C. S. Lewis, is that God can't do things that are logically inconsistent because he is a God of logic. He is a God of reason. He is a God of order. He doesn't do things that are chaotic. 


[00:20:10] Or that make no sense. He is the god of order and sense. And it's against his nature to do things that are logically inconsistent. Now, in terms of him wanting to have a relationship with us, by the nature of relationships, that's something that, like you guys said, you have to choose. You can't force someone to love you. 


[00:20:29] You can't force someone to be in a relationship with you. And have them choose it. Those are mutually exclusive ideas. Either God can force us to love Him, and that's not a real love, where He just programs all of us with that love, and we have no choice in the matter, we just have to love Him. Or, He can give us the capacity to love Him, and want us to love Him, but in the end, we choose not to, or to love Him. 


[00:20:53] We basically have those two sets. Now, God is still all powerful, God still reigns, God has complete control over the laws and workings of this universe. But, It is also true then that in order for him to remain logically consistent there with the way that he's running things, he does have to either control us completely or give us free will. 


[00:21:14] And that's where the Calvinist and the Wesleys had the conflict here, 


[00:21:18] Cody: pretty much Calvinist and non Calvinists. I don't know, essentially, I, I don't know any other doctrines or worldviews that follow the reformed theology. Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. And 


[00:21:29] Ben: the, the issue that I have. with the Calvinist approach is not so much the Calvinist approach that we're forced to do these things. 


[00:21:36] It's that there's still the treatment as if we do have a choice, which is weird. It's that we have to do these things. We still have to do the things that God asks us to do. But God would be forcing us to do them, so why do we have to think about doing them? Either he's forcing us to do all these things, and we don't have control, or he isn't, and we do. 


[00:21:56] But it's a weird middle ground where you can condemn the people who aren't doing it, even though they aren't doing it because God is forcing them to not do it. And you can't praise yourself for doing things because God is the one forcing you to do them. And the things you're not doing, God is not letting you do yet. 


[00:22:11] It's not that it's a lack of effort on your part, you don't have any effort. 


[00:22:14] Gina: But I think if you look at the people who staunchly believe in Calvinism, who really take on the lazy theology, you don't see the fruits the way that you do with people who are more passionate about having a relationship with God. 


[00:22:30] And so there's a big difference there. And I'm not trying to say that all Calvinists have a shallow relationship with God, because I do know some that are very in their word and somehow very evangelical, but I just don't I, I know a lot of people that take that path of believing that God has pre selected everything for everyone and nothing really matters, and the fruit just isn't there. 


[00:22:54] There's no really relationships, there's no accountability, there's no discipleship. It's very, I don't know, like just. Flat compared to the people who are so open with their love and willing to help and serve and be involved. 


[00:23:12] Ben: So, another question that I just thought up and I'd like to insert in here. How does all of this idea of free will gel with the idea that we have a purpose? 


[00:23:22] So, God has set you aside for a purpose that he's chosen for you to do. How do you still have free will if he has given you a purpose? 


[00:23:29] Gina: That's a good question. That's something that I've been thinking about a lot lately. It's been a weird season. Like you grow up and you look at your life and this is the way it's going to be. 


[00:23:41] And then God has a way of being like, actually, no, not at all. So change your expectations. I'm starting to see patterns in my own life with things that I've wanted, like the desires of my heart. They're not bad things, they're not ungodly things, but they are things that God has been resoundingly like, no, not going to happen, sorry, not sorry. 


[00:24:10] And I don't know, I think there are seasons or people that God places very specifically to teach certain lessons to those people so that other people learn, and I think that's why we have so many public speakers that are Christians, but not necessarily pastors. It's really common right now to have Christian authors and really, you know, It's intelligent, analytical people who speak about theology, but they're not necessarily working for a specific church. 


[00:24:42] So it seems like it's changing in our era. You have people who are very specifically placed and they have a very powerful message. And sometimes it's not a very good message, it's not a very godly message if you really pick it apart, but a lot of times you'll see there's something that they're trying to teach and it's very specific. 


[00:25:01] And I've noticed just with my own like very specific no's that I've received, it seems like God has a need for people who understand that type of challenge because it reaches more people. Being let down is a big undercurrent of being a human being, like being disappointed. Especially in America, we're so spoiled. 


[00:25:25] Like we are so used to instant gratification. We're so used to getting what we want very quickly. And I just, I think when it comes to the big things, like the big life decisions, getting married or having children or wanting this big career movement or wanting to find your purpose as a human being, those are things that are commonly. 


[00:25:45] challenging for lots and lots of people and life just doesn't look the way that we expected. And then you have somebody that gets it and spreads God's message through that, and I think that's the answer to your question is. He has very specific uses for certain people and it's because it draws other people in Who wouldn't have heard his message if they hadn't faced the same struggle as you 


[00:26:10] Cody: so many directions to take this one Take them all Purpose I think is something and this is a personal belief of mine and my own opinion is Something that I think people put entirely too much focus on Instead of just doing, it's, oh, what's God's purpose? 


[00:26:29] And I've seen that hinder a lot of people. They, they need to pray about everything, which is good, but when they receive a no, they don't always receive a no. And they'll keep, God's purpose is this for me, and they just keep going with this purpose that they have in their head of what God wants for them, and most likely it's not. 


[00:26:55] There's a famous pastor, I don't even know the sermon, but he has a lot of memes, Matt Chandler. Um, it's, he's the guy who said, You're not David. And that, that's it. took off. And I think a lot of people put themselves into the Bible and the characters and like the influence that they had and the impact that they've had and think that they need to fulfill that. 


[00:27:21] And that is a purpose that God puts on them, which I don't think is everybody's calling. I don't think everybody's calling is to be in ministry. And I think a lot of the people that are currently in ministry have not been called that way, but are currently trying to lead in that capacity. With that being said though, if you read through, I'm trying to think of, I think it's in Timothy, Paul, Paul talks about it, but also Ecclesiastes and people of the early church, there's this mentality of just doing your daily tasks, like living your normal life, but as a Christian, as a brother and sister, as somebody who is just Living in community with other Christians, and building the kingdom with, up, where you're at, instead of going everywhere, or having to make this big impact, or being this influencer. 


[00:28:18] Ecclesiastes talks about people just finding joy in the day to day stuff, and how the writer is jealous of that almost, or, not necessarily jealous, but wishes that he could find joy in the simple things. And I think people overlook that working a nine to five and being a great father and a great husband is a purpose and there is nothing wrong with that. 


[00:28:44] Ben: So I agree, there are definitely a lot of different ways to take this. I think at the base level, we're all born with things, capacities, that are unique to us in some way. Some of us are born very athletic, some of us are born very tall, some of us are born fairly musically inclined, or we develop unique talents as we get older that other people don't tend to have. 


[00:29:08] You could say that's God setting you up to do something, giving you tools that he intends for you to use. And I agree, that is God giving you tools to use. But you do find that most of the times in the Bible, like, he selects people who lack the tools to do something naturally. Gideon is a random guy from nowhere. 


[00:29:27] David is a random guy from nowhere. Elijah is a random guy from nowhere. And he chooses all of these different people to do great things, and it's through his power that he does that. And in a sense, I think turning to Christ in a way gives you more of a choice, oddly enough, than before. And what I mean by that is that my mom grew up in a very aggressively atheist household, and her life was on a very specific track. 


[00:29:58] She was a physician's assistant. She was fairly successful. Eventually she met my father and she became a Christian. And it drastically shifted the direction of her life. And if you had known her prior to then, she would have seemed fairly emotionally distant. She would have been Someone I didn't know her at the time, but from the way that she's described that period of her life, that she was someone who was going to be difficult to get close to and who held onto a lot of hurt from the years where she was growing up and through coming to know Christ, she gained the ability to let go of that. 


[00:30:30] And she gained the ability to do things that would have seemed beneath a woman who was a literal physician's assistant, an educated woman. She eventually became a mother, and she became a teacher at a private school, and then she worked in assisted living when we moved to Florida. Your mom did so much more than that. 


[00:30:45] She's an amazing lady. She is an amazing lady. It's really, it's I talk about my dad a lot, but I feel bad because I really should be talking about my mom just as often. Her story is every bit as incredible as my father's is, and her gifts are every bit as invaluable and amazing as his. And the Lord has very clearly worked in her life, and she's talked about how if, The Lord hadn't been a part of her life. 


[00:31:07] She would not be anywhere near where she is right now. The Lord gave her the ability to choose. So I still think that everyone has the ability to choose. We all have the ability to choose, but we don't seem to have the same motivation to choose until we start to know Christ. And then he gives us the true choice because most of our choices don't seem to matter prior to him. 


[00:31:27] Let's be real. It doesn't matter if you eat the steak or you eat the cereal for dinner. Yeah, sure, you're eating breakfast for dinner, you're eating an actual dinner for dinner. It doesn't actually matter if you choose that. It doesn't matter if you choose to wear your pants normal, you choose to wear shorts, or you choose to wear your pants on backwards. 


[00:31:43] Those aren't choices that matter. It 


[00:31:45] Gina: matters if you wear pants, Ben. It 


[00:31:47] Ben: matters even then. Most choices in your life don't really seem to matter that much without Christ. But once Christ is injected, suddenly all of the decisions of your life have more color. They have more purpose, more meaning. And you're right, Cody. 


[00:31:59] I don't think, I don't think you need to look at it as every single person has this specific purpose. Job that God has set aside for them. I do think for some people that's the case. It's like we talk about Esther. Yeah, she was put there, but God makes it clear. She had the choice to stay there and do nothing. 


[00:32:17] Gina: Scripture acknowledges that there will be people for special use. There will be people for leadership, but it doesn't promise it for everybody. 


[00:32:26] Ben: And 


[00:32:26] Cody: even then, those people still have a choice. Do you think, another way to ask this, do you think that you cannot fulfill the purpose God has on your life? Yeah. 


[00:32:36] Okay, I'd agree with that. What about you Gina? Do you think if God has a purpose for you, your life, can you not fulfill that purpose? 


[00:32:45] Gina: Yes, and I've ignored what he's told me to do before, and I've been punished for it. I've paid for it. It's not just saying no, there are consequences from God. 


[00:32:54] Cody: I agree. See, I think that's where the Calvinists use it as a gotcha. 


[00:32:58] God has his purpose, and 


[00:33:01] Ben: you didn't do that. No, it's, it's, it's the same thing with you guys and your children. There are things that you want your children to do. But in the end, if you force them to do it, it changes the dynamic of the relationship and it's not even truly a relationship if you force them to do literally every single thing. 


[00:33:16] Gina: There's this quote by G. K. Chesterton talking about how, I'll paraphrase it because I don't want my phone to die, but basically he says that maybe it's not just out of mundane necessity that God created daisies. Maybe he is still so enamored with creating each individual one that He says do it again like a little kid when you swing a little kid around and I really believe that When it comes to creating people God creates us all individual like we're all made in his image And there's nothing new under the sun, and yet we are all so different and unique and he loves us individually. 


[00:33:58] It's not just, Oh, he created such and such a person just so that they could be destroyed. I think genuinely that God takes as much delight in creating. The daisies, as he does, creating us, if not more, and he loves us more than the flowers and the birds. We have so many promises in scripture for his love for us, I can't ever agree or believe that there would be somebody that's just waste. 


[00:34:23] Because that's basically what Calvinism is saying, that there are people here that are completely pointless and useless and worthless to God. And we're not the point of God, but he loves us. But 


[00:34:34] Cody: Romans says that some are made for ceremonial use and some are made for destruction. 


[00:34:40] Gina: Some might be made for destruction, Cody, but I think he loved those people and they chose destruction. 


[00:34:47] Ben: I think it is worth looking at that verse a bit more. So how do you interpret some are made for common use, some are made ceremonial, and some are made for destruction? 


[00:34:55] Cody: My interpretation of that is What potter do you know that makes something just to destroy it? 


[00:35:03] Gina: What about the rec rooms? 


[00:35:04] Cody: That's just stuff that they find that's trash, that they beat to kingdom come. 


[00:35:09] Ben: Yeah, I think it's a better translation is some are made for common use, some are ceremonial, and some end up being destroyed. 


[00:35:16] Cody: I would agree with that, because if you think about any creative anything, unless you're a pyrotechnic, you're a pyrotechnic. You don't make anything to be destroyed like a potter. 


[00:35:28] That's who they're talking about. In this instance, a potter is not going to make anything to be. 


[00:35:34] Gina: And that takes a lot of time and effort and money. Like it's like pottery is one of the most expensive hobbies that you can have. The equipment is expensive. It's just, it's so labor intensive. You need like an entire day just to create one piece. 


[00:35:50] And if you were to go and buy like a handmade pottery dish, it would be like. Like, I looked at buying my friend a salad bowl one year for her birthday from her favorite pottery artist. I didn't even know that was a thing, but she's like very into pottery. It was 500 for a salad bowl. Like, I'm sorry, but I wouldn't think that somebody would create a 500 bowl that took hours and hours to make. 


[00:36:16] and then just go and shatter it intentionally. 


[00:36:19] Ben: Agreed. 


[00:36:20] Gina: And that implies that God is like so frivolous and flippant and it like creates this idea that I don't really like picturing God as that. 


[00:36:29] Ben: No, it's definitely something that causes you to, like it's an image of like God creating billions upon billions. 


[00:36:40] Gina: It makes you, it makes me think of McDonald's. You can have this beautiful Wagyu steak that was raised from a calf, that's been nurtured and whatever, or you could go to McDonald's. Is God pumping out billions of little cheeseburgers, or is he pumping out wagyu steaks? 


[00:37:01] Cody: What is that philosophical thought where nobody else exists except for the person? 


[00:37:06] Gosh, what is that? 


[00:37:07] Ben: I don't know the name of it, but I know what you mean. Cause that. Sorry, Gina, the rest of us don't exist, only you do. At least you've acknowledged it. Okay, so let's move on to the next point. 


[00:37:19] Cody: The next all. 


[00:37:20] Ben: Yes. The third all is all can know that they are saved. The idea behind this is once we are, once we accept Christ as our Lord and Savior, the Holy Spirit begins to work in our lives. 


[00:37:32] And through the Holy Spirit we can receive assurance or certainty that we are saved. And there are a couple of different verses that are given for this. The first is Romans chapter 8 verses 15 through 16. The Spirit you received does not make you slaves. So that you live in fear again rather the spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship and by him We cry Abba Father. 


[00:37:56] The spirit himself testifies to our spirit that we are God's children and in the second verse of that uses 1st John chapter 5 verse 13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God So that you may know that you have eternal life. And honestly, I really like the Romans chapter eight verses 15 through 16, because it explicitly says we're not slaves. 


[00:38:19] It explicitly says effectively that we do have a choice and it brings about this very tender and kind relationship that we have with the spirit 


[00:38:28] Gina: family relationship. It 


[00:38:29] Ben: is 


[00:38:30] Gina: an adoption to sonship. I am adopted. So it's a beautiful thing. 


[00:38:35] Ben: And the way it talks about. Calling out Abba father. 


[00:38:39] Gina: That's like saying daddy in Hebrew. 


[00:38:42] Ben: It's the most intimate word that they have for those of you who don't know for father Abba, it really does essentially translate to daddy. And so, yeah, that is the relationship that Paul is talking about us having with God, through the power of the Holy spirit, we can know that we are saved. So first opening up to you guys, cause I've been talking for a while. 


[00:39:01] Do you believe that we can know that we are saved whether or not we can be, because we all agree that we can be saved. Can you know that you are saved? 


[00:39:09] Cody: This is a double edged sword, I think, because yes, I think you can know you're saved, but there's also people who will falsely think that they are saved. 


[00:39:19] And you say, I think it's Matthew 22, where some will cry out, Lord, and he's going to say that he never knew them. And so they fully thought they were saved, but they weren't. That would be a yes and no, almost. Like, there is some. But 


[00:39:38] Gina: your responsibility is, I think, primarily your relationship with God. Can you be certain of your salvation? 


[00:39:47] Cody: I'm a bad person to ask this. Answer the question. I don't personally know, like I don't know if I'll ever get to a point where I know with 100 percent certainty that I'm going to be saved. And the reason behind that is, is there is so much misinformation in today's day and age and there is so much different ways to interpret. 


[00:40:11] Gina: But did you do the repeat after me prayer? 


[00:40:13] Cody: I did. I raised my hand too. 


[00:40:15] Gina: You're saved. 


[00:40:16] Cody: Do I think that I'm saved? Yes. Do I, can I say 100 percent certainty that everything I've done, like I, I know how bad I am and I wouldn't save me. And I guess that's where I'm at with that. And I think I've talked about on previous Podcasts is, um, or episodes, the ABBA father is something that I struggle with just because of my personal relationship with my dad. 


[00:40:41] Ben: Yeah. Lee Strobel once pointed out something that I think has some weight. He said that there are a lot of atheists who exist, who have a lot of very bad relationships with their fathers. And he did wonder if maybe one caused the other. If a bad relationship with an earthly father causes a bad relationship with a heavenly father. 


[00:41:01] And I do think we do pull from our earthly relationships to understand our relationship with God. For myself, like looking at my relationship with both my parents, I know that both of them love me. And, in the same way I can know and do know that God loves me. And if we use that as a facsimile for salvation, yeah, I know I'm saved because I know that God loves me and I love him. 


[00:41:24] I know that my parents love me and I love them. So for me, it really is that simple. And I do think that there is the capacity for us to obfuscate that. And like you said, there are people who are going to say, That they are saved and they're not. I think for most of the time, though, it's not that we can say for certainty that they aren't saved. 


[00:41:42] But, by the fruit of the tree, you know them. And for a lot of these people, I do think whether or not you would say, like, you can't know, I can't know if you are saved. The idea is, can you know that you are? If I look at your life, I would say, you know what, Cody? By the fruit of the tree, I would say, yeah, I think you are. 


[00:41:58] That doesn't mean I'm right, but by the same stroke, for many Christians, you look at them and it's pretty clear that they're not giving fruit. Their lives are empty and shallow, and they come to church and they say the words, but their lives aren't bearing any kind of fruit that indicates that Christ is working in their lives. 


[00:42:14] I don't think that it comes out of nowhere. I don't think that Gina could be praying at the altar every single day, and then one day she has a heart attack or something and goes to heaven, and then God says, I didn't know you. I don't think it works like that. There is a reason he doesn't know you. 


[00:42:27] Gina: So I had to make a really hard phone call one time, because God, God said so, and I put it off for a couple of weeks. 


[00:42:36] And when the guy that I had to call, who happened to be my biological grandfather, who, is a drunk who had just lost his son, my biological father. When he answered the phone, he said, I don't know you. And he hung up on me. And it was like, God was like, That's what's gonna happen if you don't listen to me. 


[00:42:55] And so, I never knew you. I take it pretty seriously. But I know I'm saved. I just know I'm going to be judged. So I'm very aware of that and I try to be very careful. 


[00:43:08] Ben: There's a reason we're told to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. We do need to remember that while God is good, and He is merciful, He's also just. 


[00:43:17] And I do think that there is a tendency for us as Christians to focus way too much on the merciful, the relational, the kindness and love aspect of this relationship with God, and forget that He is still the same God He always has been, and He is a God of justice. And if you continue to live in sin, you're constantly spitting in His face. 


[00:43:43] You're spitting in the face of justice. So yeah, you're right. It is something that we do need to keep in mind and thank you for sharing because I know that's a rough story for you. 


[00:43:51] Gina: Oh man, it was a very eyeopening in terms of calling and salvation and purpose. 


[00:43:57] Cody: Spitting in God's face. I want to talk on that for a second because I want to challenge people on their interpretation of taking the Lord's name in vain. 


[00:44:06] A lot of people. think that taking the name, the Lord's name in vain is saying a curse word. I would challenge that thought and look at the original language that it was written in. And to take the Lord's name, to take up, to carry, to have a banner of the Lord's name is calling yourself a Christian. and doing the opposite of that. 


[00:44:31] Gina: Just being an image bearer. 


[00:44:32] Cody: Yes. When you think about the Ten Commandments and you pat yourself on the back because you've never broken any of the Ten Commandments, think more deeply on that one. 


[00:44:43] Gina: Can you give more specific examples of how somebody would take the Lord's name in vain without saying OMG? 


[00:44:50] Ben: Yeah, so Dennis Prager actually talked about that interpretation, and I like it, and I agree with it. You bear God's name falsely. Let's say that I'm going on. We've talked about this before. There are people who will say, Oh no, God told me it's okay for me to have sex with this woman who I am in a relationship with. 


[00:45:09] I feel like it. Therefore I'm going to ascribe to God my motivation. That is bearing God's name falsely. That is taking the flag of God and planting it in your action and saying he approves. That's bearing it falsely. And that's a sin. That's a horrible sin. 


[00:45:25] Cody: So growing up, we had, um, we were part of a, like a Christian, uh, church. 


[00:45:35] And one of the things that some of these organizations would make you do is you had to dress in a suit and tie to your games. And the reason was, is you're representing God and you want to look your best for it. And that's how a lot of the Southern churches and some of those more traditional fundamental churches, why you put on your Sunday's best and why that's a thing is because you're going to appraise it. 


[00:45:58] place of worship. You're representing God. You're going to be in the presence of God. So you want to look your best. That should be the idea of bearing and taking the Lord's name with you wherever you go. You want to look your best is what you're doing. Honoring to God. Are you doing what's holy or what, what you like? 


[00:46:17] Are you being set apart as we're called to be set apart as Christians, or are you living up the world? 


[00:46:22] Ben: I like that. I like that a lot because the way that. Prager had explained it, and I still think it's a valid way of looking at it. It's taking God's name and tying it. To something you're doing which is not something God would approve of but simultaneously we are literally as Christians bearing Christ's name little Christ Mm hmm. 


[00:46:42] And so if we are actively carrying the banner of Christ everywhere we go If we act in a way that isn't Christ's, we are bearing his name falsely. 


[00:46:51] Cody: I view that as that's tattooed across me. I am taking it where I can't shed that now. That is part of me because I am a Christian. That is my identity. So I can't shed that. 


[00:47:04] So anything I do, no matter what it is, putting my stamp of approval on it, I'm being watched by only God knows who. You influence a lot more people than you think about when you're Living your day to day life out in the community. Anything, you cutting somebody off and flipping them off. That, that is road rage. 


[00:47:25] That, that you're falsely bearing God's name there. Yeah, I like that. 


[00:47:30] Ben: Not the bearing God's name falsely. Not cussing people or anything. 


[00:47:34] Gina: But it's not just what you do to other people, it's also what's in your head and in your heart. 


[00:47:40] Ben: Agreed. Yeah, I think there is a whole lot of depth to the idea that you're bearing God's image, you're bearing his name. 


[00:47:47] And not only are you tying it to the things that you're doing, and not only are you occasionally attributing to God things that aren't godly, but it's also the way that you think, it's the way that you act. Everything about you should be moving over time, more and more closely, to be similar to Christ. 


[00:48:02] That should be an active act of sanctification, like you've talked about before. And if you're rejecting that, then that flag that you've planted in your life, that representation that Christ is giving you, is being bared falsely. And then you really need to re examine why it is you're holding that banner to begin with. 


[00:48:18] Gina: That ties really nicely into being saved to the uttermost. 


[00:48:21] Ben: Absolutely. Well done, you. So yeah, the final point, the final of the four alls, all can be saved to the uttermost. It's the idea of entire sanctification or perfection in love, and it was taught by Wesley. We are told to love God with all of our heart, mind, soul, and strength, and to love our neighbor as ourselves. 


[00:48:43] Through love and the power of the Holy Spirit, we become more and more like Christ, and we become more and more empowered to follow God's commands. And the verses that Wesleyans will use to back this up are 1 Thessalonians 5, verses 23 24. May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. 


[00:49:03] May your whole spirit, soul, and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. The one who calls you is faithful, and he will do it. Then there's Philippians chapter 1 verse 6, being confident of this. That he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion, until the day of Christ Jesus. 


[00:49:23] We've covered this now. Do we believe in the idea of sanctification? Of becoming more Christ like over time? Yes. 


[00:49:31] Cody: Is it always more Christ like? Can you ebb and flow in your Christ likeness? 


[00:49:37] Ben: Yeah, I think that there are Seasons in all of our lives. You guys have been very open about some of the struggles that you've had at points where it felt like at the very least you are farther away from God. 


[00:49:48] I don't know that even in those really dark and terrible instances, we're truly farther away from God. It's more that God has highlighted an area of our life that actually was fairly weak, and it's being stressed now by something. And the weakness is being exposed to the forefront, and we have to deal with it. 


[00:50:04] And in so doing, we become stronger. But at the very least, in the moment, There is the possibility of falling away completely, which is ultimate weakness. It's just completely collapsing and falling away. And there have been people who did fall away for a time and then came back. I haven't known of many of those people, but I've known a few people who, like when I went to school with some people who were, Like that. 


[00:50:25] They were Christians when they were kids and then fell away in their college years and then came back when it's a lot of people. Yeah, it's a lot of people. It's a tale as old as time at this point, but I don't know that all of them do that due to sanctification. A lot of them actually do that because it's just, you go to college and there's a lot of stuff that you see that you want and it's inconvenient for God to be there. 


[00:50:46] Gina: That's like, I was going to use that example actually, because. We have a 12 year old daughter and she and I got into a really big argument last week. Funny, funny enough, it was about like perfume and I have nothing against perfume. It's just, it contains certain perfumes contain certain ingredients that I don't want my family to be exposed to. 


[00:51:08] And of course, Madeline and I get into this argument and it's companies. sometimes design products that create dependencies on other products. And it's like a hamster wheel. And it's not something that, that we like, or that we want to hear, but companies want our money. They don't, they don't really care about us as people. 


[00:51:34] And then I basically boiled it down. Cause I got so frustrated. I was like, okay, a company comes, they take your health. They take your money and they leave you there to die. Who does that sound like? Satan or God? She was like, Satan. I was like, the world's going to hate you, but we're going to be set apart and we're not going to use that. 


[00:51:54] There are times where it's so inconvenient and so frustrating because we want what we want and we can't have it. If we want to honor God, we can't have it. And it could be as stupid as perfume, but it could be something really big, like temptation to do something that we know we shouldn't do. That's like in the Bible. 


[00:52:12] And it's really hard when you're not spiritually mature to stay true to the course. And so you will see ebbing and flowing. I think that is normal, but you have to get to a point where you're honest with yourself. And you're honest with God and you can confess those things and be held accountable to those things and not ebb and flow in the same way. 


[00:52:32] Now you guys think I'm conspiracy theorists about greedy products? Prevalent 


[00:52:37] Cody: and capitalism. No, never. The very idea. 


[00:52:42] Gina: I could talk a lot about endocrine disruptors. It sounds like we agree with a lot of Wesleyanism. 


[00:52:49] Ben: We, we do, but there's, I think we can go into this part a little bit more. Okay. So we can become more Christ like over time. 


[00:52:56] Are we ever going to be exactly like Christ? No. So then what exactly is the point of sanctification? If we're becoming more like something we can never be. 


[00:53:05] Gina: We will never be sinless, but we can sin less. 


[00:53:08] Cody: So you don't think that we could live a perfect day even? No. Like a sinless day? 


[00:53:13] Gina: No, because our thoughts. 


[00:53:15] Cody: You don't think you can come to a point where you control your thoughts enough to If you were up in a cabin in the middle of nowhere for 40 years, you don't think you can control your thoughts enough to not sin? 


[00:53:26] Gina: We can never be as good as Christ, because whether we have a sinless future or not, we've had a sinful past. 


[00:53:34] Cody: But do you think we can have a sinless day? Do you think you can have a perfect day? 


[00:53:40] Ben: So if you're in a coma, absolutely, like just by default, you wouldn't be able to have any sinful thoughts or feelings. But the absence of sin does not mean the presence of goodness. The absence of goodness is the presence of sin. 


[00:53:52] Yeah, I would say it's possible hypothetically, even if you are conscious, to not do something bad throughout an entire day. And I would say that the odds of that are actually much better. The longer you've been a Christian, I do think that it is possible for people to be better and better as time goes by, but temptation is always there. 


[00:54:08] And sin will always be there as long as we're alive. There's not a single person who's perfect aside from Christ. 


[00:54:13] Gina: I think it's really hard. When it comes to sin, to not idolize behaviors. And I think if we become super obsessed with, Oh, am I sinning? Then it becomes your idol instead of, Am I obeying and honoring and loving God? 


[00:54:29] Cody: No, what if you weren't? Am I sinning, but is what I'm doing holy? And you only focus on doing what is holy? Is that still an idol that is? 


[00:54:38] Gina: It's a fine line. It would be a case by case assessment, and I can't, I'm not the assessor goddess. 


[00:54:44] Cody: Catholicism has a lot of teachings on sanctification, and they call the process of this, I think, something else, theocracies, or something like that, but it's a theosomething. 


[00:54:55] Theosis? I can't remember. But they have some older teachings that these people became so holy, these saints became so holy that they could fly or levitate or had these special Holy Spirit powers because they were so sinless. And do you think that you get superpowers if you are more holy? 


[00:55:18] Gina: I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. 


[00:55:21] Like genuinely. I believe anything's possible. Do I believe in the truthfulness of some of that? No. 


[00:55:28] Ben: A lot of the times it feels like they're trying to take these people and say that the people themselves are that holy. And as a characteristic of that holiness, they gain some measure of control over the physical world like God has. 


[00:55:42] Essentially, they are becoming more than human, which is not something that's biblical in my opinion. And we may have Catholic listeners who disagree with that. Okay, fine. I don't believe that the better a life you live, the more God like you become. We say Christ like for a reason, and by that we're talking about Yeah, his wisdom, his capacities as a human. 


[00:56:03] He channeled the power of the Spirit, and he said that there were greater things that we would do than him, and there are some debates about what exactly that means. I'm Not here to talk about that. We can even have an episode just on that. But the idea is that through the power of the Holy Spirit, we can do anything. 


[00:56:19] The power of the Holy Spirit is not something that we get to command. The Holy Spirit is not our slave. We are a slave to the Holy Spirit. And who knows? Like you said, Gina, anything is possible. The Holy Spirit may very well give you the ability to fly or walk on water or some crazy thing at some point. 


[00:56:35] Anything is possible. But God doesn't tend to do that. 


[00:56:38] Gina: I think sanctification, like a really good example of A saint experiencing sanctification is like St. Francis kissing the leper. He detested lepers. He was very wealthy, he was very privileged, he was afraid of lepers, he also hated lepers. And he forced himself to face that for Christ. 


[00:57:01] He wasn't doing it for himself. But because he thought that it would elevate him or that the leper would love him or anything like that, he knew that it would glorify God and he knew that obedience was important. If your intentions in the sanctification process are to glorify yourself or to glorify something and not God, then it's not sanctification. 


[00:57:23] Ben: There's also the story where Corrie Ten Boom came face to face with one of her Nazi captors, and he'd become a Christian, and she hated this man, and she didn't want to forgive him, but he came forward and asked for forgiveness, and she chose to forgive him because she knew it was the right thing to do. 


[00:57:40] Whether or not she felt it in the moment, that is the process of sanctification. And it goes back to what we were talking about before. Through the power of Christ, it seems like you do have more of a choice, more free will to choose, than you would otherwise. God granted Corrie the ability to forgive this man who did horrible things to her. 


[00:57:57] Gina: And to have the wisdom to know how important that decision was, like the poignancy of that moment. 


[00:58:05] Ben: Now there is still the question, why would God even care if we're more like Him? If we can never, if we can literally never get to that point, why does God actually care if we're more like the thing we can never reach? 


[00:58:15] Gina: It's not about us. 


[00:58:17] Ben: Looking at you two for a second, just pulling from the idea of a married couple relationship, why would Do you think Gina that you will ever be the perfect wife? 


[00:58:25] Cody: Yes. 


[00:58:26] Ben: Oh, okay. Cody, do you ever think you will be the perfect husband? 


[00:58:29] Cody: No. 


[00:58:31] Ben: So does that mean that you shouldn't keep trying to better yourself? 


[00:58:34] Cody: No, absolutely not. And is it in my best interest to try and better myself for my relationship and my family? Yes, it is. And I think it's the same in our Christian walk is to constantly better ourselves because it is better for us to try and be more like Christ. 


[00:58:52] Gina: Even in marriage, like I can't say for sure what happens in heaven with marriage. 


[00:58:58] So I find marriage a challenging example of that, because it could be irrelevant to eternity. I don't think it is, but it could be. 


[00:59:07] Ben: What we pull from earthly examples of relationships to help us understand heavenly ones, and typically in the Bible you pull from the relationship of marriage to explain God's relationship with the church. 


[00:59:19] Gina: I think the example of, there's a song lyric that God wants his bride dressed in white. And maybe that's scripture, I don't remember. But if we need to be dressed in white, like then we need to be pure. And purity is something that we can give up and lose and that's a whole other issue, but then can we regain it? 


[00:59:40] Can we become pure again? And I think sanctification is the process of becoming pure and innocent and new for God. In preparation for eternity in a way that we've never been before. If that makes sense. 


[00:59:54] Ben: There are definitely passages in the Bible that talk about this. Though your sins are as scarlet, they will be made white as snow. 


[01:00:01] And there's imagery that's brought up both in regards to Israel and to the church of a woman whose innocence has been stolen or given up. And God brings this woman in and he clothes her with his own clothes. He covers her with white robes. He makes her presentable. He purifies her with an offering from himself. 


[01:00:21] It is absolutely something that you can give up, and it's something that can be taken from you, sadly. But it is something that God can restore to you. 


[01:00:28] Gina: I was 16 when I wasn't pure anymore. I'll say it that way. And I was just a rough kid. I did drugs, drank, partied, made really irresponsible decisions with my body. 


[01:00:46] I was a teen mom. Those are some indicators for you. Sanctification has definitely been very obvious to me in my own life just because of how many bad worldviews I had and, and just decisions that I made and how that's not me anymore. 


[01:01:02] Ben: And the Bible says that whoever's been forgiven of much loves much. 


[01:01:06] And there's a reason that Mary Magdalene loved Jesus the amount that she did. It's believed that she was the one who cracked the jar of nard and poured it all over Jesus feet, and cried on his feet, and then wiped the tears with her hair. Yeah, if you've been, it's something that I've struggled with to an extent, because Growing up, I didn't make a whole lot of horrible, damaging decisions in my own life. 


[01:01:29] And there have been times where I've wondered where exactly I would be if I had strayed and then come back. A lot of people have. And for the people who have, they generally tell me, Oh no, you're much better off. In fact, it's great that you didn't stray away. And I believe that, but There is always the part of you that wonders how much closer could I be to God if there was something I knew? 


[01:01:51] Like we all know that all sin is between us and God But when you do things that are genuinely terrible or you come from a place where you were lost Like I talked about my mom before, it's not that she was a horrible person or anything, but she knows the person that she was before she met Christ. And she was a pretty solid atheist, and a lot of bad things happened to her when she was younger. 


[01:02:12] And that was stuff that threatened to mark her for the rest of her life. And she chose Christ, and she was able to leave all of that behind. And that's a beautiful thing. And I love my mother and I love her testimony and I love my father and I love his testimony. And it's just, when I look at my own life, that's not a testimony that I have. 


[01:02:29] My testimony is effectively dealing with other things that happen that aren't my fault. And yes, there's value to that. It's just, you know, It's tough. It's, it makes you wonder. 


[01:02:39] Cody: I resonate with that a lot. And I think that's one of the reasons I have the position on knowing without a doubt that I'm saved and it's a blessing and a curse in itself because I grew up in a Christian household. 


[01:02:53] There's not a second that I can think of that I didn't believe that there was a God, that there is a God. And I don't think it's talked about for people who grew up in the church that didn't have this like super massive deconstructive phase where they completely just set God completely to the side. 


[01:03:14] And had no cares at all to that, because I, I've never experienced that. So it's, you don't know life without God at all. So you have nothing to compare it to. So you just have been, there's ups and downs in your connection with God and stuff, but you don't know the absence of God. And sometimes I, I wish that I knew that just so you could feel more, if that makes sense. 


[01:03:40] And I think it does from what you just said, but you don't know life without God. So it's hard to relate to like the spirit received and like the talk of the change you'll feel from the Holy Spirit. If you've never known life without that, then how do you witness or feel the change? 


[01:03:59] Ben: And one of the things that. 


[01:04:02] So many people towards the teaching of Paul is the fact that he called himself the worst of sinners. He was a man who actively persecuted the church, and his conversion means a lot. And the fact that he converted is something that's strong evidence for his writings, is the fact that we knew that he was a guy Who actively killed and hunted Christians. 


[01:04:20] And then he changed and he turned from that and he became one of its strongest advocates. There's a lot of power in that testimony and it wouldn't be a powerful testimony if he was just literally always a Christian. It's like, Oh no, I just, I always knew. I 


[01:04:34] Gina: do think from my perspective though, like the steadfastness of your faith is what attracted me to my faith. 


[01:04:43] Like the absence of God in my life was pretty dead feeling. And getting to see the experience that you had, and your upbringing was not easy, it's not like you were having bake sales and church picnics and that was your life, it was hard for you. And seeing the man that you've become and the way that you developed, being a Christian didn't exclude you from sin of other people or your own, and yet you still are here. 


[01:05:15] A lot of people who have gone through things that you've been through wouldn't have stayed. And that has meant a lot to our family and to me because whether I had God or not, bad stuff was going to happen. And it's taught me to be extremely faithful and grateful. And you've been so knowledgeable and such a good leader to me. 


[01:05:37] So I just hope like how wonderful you are because it's your knowledge and your curiosity and your logic has been instrumental in my own faith. And I don't think we would be the family that we are without all of the things that you've lived through and the way that your faith has developed. And I've seen more development in you in the last five years than I think you realize. 


[01:06:01] Cody: No, it's definitely taken off and thank you. 


[01:06:04] Gina: But I just, I wanted you to know that like, I know that it can be hard to imagine like the absence, but I'm glad you don't have it. 


[01:06:12] Cody: No, but, like, I think it can be a detriment to some, and I don't know if you felt the same way, but she constantly gives me crap because I'll say, like, my testimony doesn't have a very big impact because, you know, I'm not coming from past drug usage, and, you know, the ones you hear in the, uh, But the further you are from God, the greater impact you'll have when it comes to your testimony. 


[01:06:36] And that's just a common thing that's taught and understood. 


[01:06:40] Gina: Because people like drama? 


[01:06:41] Cody: No, because I think the people who are truly trying to change have hit rock bottom. So seeing somebody who has also hit rock bottom is a greater impact than somebody who they have, they've had a tough life, but they've always been able to fall back on. 


[01:06:59] Gina: I don't think that you can. Only hit rock bottom without God, because I've hit my lowest lows with God than I ever did before God. 


[01:07:07] Cody: I've hit everything with God, so I couldn't really comment otherwise. I think There is going to be highs and lows, no matter which religious persuasion you are, but one of the things that I've always fallen back on in any situation has been, honestly, I've taken a more Calvinistic approach is it's in God's hands. 


[01:07:30] Like I, Me, and it bothers you sometimes, is like, me worrying about a situation is not going to change that situation because that situation is out of my hands. 


[01:07:42] Gina: You sound like a Calvinist. 


[01:07:43] Cody: I do. But there's certain things that, and you get mad at me too, it's like politics. They're out of my hands for the most, especially national politics. 


[01:07:53] But 


[01:07:53] Ben: for Paula, as far as politics goes, it's like. In the end, you vote on stuff. And if you're going to vote on stuff without having any knowledge or understanding of what you're voting on or the implications for it, then why are you doing it? And that's a separate issue. And we don't need to go into it. 


[01:08:08] Oh, please. No, don't worry about it. There's two things you're never supposed to talk about religions and politics. And we're talking about religion all the time here. So might as well sneak some politics in, but. Pulling from earthly relationships again, would you ever want any of your children to not have one of you? 


[01:08:25] But that's going to happen to them. One day that's going to happen. Yeah, and obviously they'll come to understand and appreciate the relationship that they had with you once they no longer have you and That's going to be important at some point but it's important for them to have you now and you wouldn't want them to not have you and Maybe that's not a perfect analogy, but for me, I noticed that when Jack was gone, once I lost my brother, yet suddenly everyone realized just how important he was once he was gone. 


[01:08:58] I'd much rather have him here. I'd much rather not know how much more important he was to me once he was gone. And I knew how, like, I felt How important he was when he was there. But then once I felt his absence, the actual magnitude of who he was in my life became much more clear. And it became clear for everybody, including people who didn't have such a great relationship with him at the time. 


[01:09:20] Because suddenly the implication of Okay, I can't repair that now becomes clear. It's a weird thing. And I think there is some similarity between people who come to God late and having done some bad things that need to be forgiven versus people who've always had him like you and I have. And I think that both need to happen. 


[01:09:39] Ultimately, That I think that more goes to the idea of God setting certain pieces of pottery aside for special use. He calls to some of us at one time or another, we don't have any control over what families were born into. I was born into a Christian family. You were born into a Christian family. You were born into some kind of strange, wiccan, Christian. 


[01:10:04] I don't know what your family is. 


[01:10:06] Gina: My birth family was prostitutes and gangsters. Not even kidding. 


[01:10:12] Ben: Yikes. 


[01:10:12] Gina: And then my adoptive family was just dysfunctional. The religious aspect was like a lot of various religions combined. 


[01:10:22] Ben: But none of us chose where we were born. No. None of us chose the families we were born into. 


[01:10:27] If you ask my adoptive mom, I chose her. There's a lot of that kind of thing. I see that with a lot of people who get pets. It's weird. No, my furbaby chose me. Yeah, I chose you. I wanted you to abuse me. 


[01:10:47] Cody: I wanted to be carried around in a stroller as a dog. 


[01:10:52] Ben: And they, they can't carry the animal anymore. 


[01:10:54] Although, 


[01:10:55] Gina: okay. I was at Publix yesterday. with Madeline, and there was a lady with a kitten 


[01:11:02] Ben: tied around her neck on down her back. People are getting weird about their pets. It's depressing. It was like a parrot. But yeah, none of us control where we're born. And, to an extent, that's why I agree with you in that there is an element of truth, I think, in Calvinism. 


[01:11:21] We don't control everything that happens to us. I, what I think we do control is the effort. We choose the attitude with which we approach our surroundings. We choose the things that we focus on. And I do think that there are points where God gives us a diverging path and says, okay, you can take this, and this is what I want for you. 


[01:11:38] Or, whatever. You can choose to ignore it. In which case, I will find a way, but you won't get the blessing, and the consequences are on you. And that's, again, I bring up Esther all the time, but I think that verse really does exemplify that fact. Esther didn't choose to be put into her position. She was put there by God. 


[01:11:56] Gina: But the funny part about this Esther thing is that people judge her. She's either like a harlot, Or she's like the super obedient queen. And that's really irrelevant. 


[01:12:10] Ben: Correct. The point was, is that at that point, Mordecai was letting her know the truth. God was giving her a choice. She could choose to be faithful to what God had put her there to do, or she could choose to take her own safety and prioritize that. 


[01:12:24] And she chose God. So yeah, she never said his name, but she chose him. No, that's the most fascinating thing about the whole book of Esther. God. Isn't mentioned I believe a single time in the book, but his presence is there it's felt throughout the whole thing because Yes, it's not said that God will find a way. 


[01:12:42] It's that the Jews will be saved even if you don't do this, but you and your family will die, and who knows but that you were put here for this purpose. Mordecai is saying exactly that. God did this. God did this. You have a choice. Choose. That's the same thing for everybody. Maybe you didn't have a choice to be here. 


[01:13:00] God puts you here, you have a choice. Choose. 


[01:13:03] Gina: Or sue your parents for not getting your consent to be born. 


[01:13:07] Ben: I've never heard of that succeeding. I've never heard of that tried. It's happening. Is it? Yeah. Successfully? It's going to court. Are they winning though? I have no idea. Mom and Dad, I hope you're ready. 


[01:13:21] I'm coming. Lawyer up. 


[01:13:26] Gina: Thank you so much for taking the time to listen to our podcast today. If you liked what you heard, please feel free to subscribe and share and leave a positive review. And if you would like to connect with us on social media, you can do so on Instagram and Facebook at the Logic of God. You can also send us an email at Maine dot the Logic of god@gmail.com. 


[01:13:49] Thanks again for listening. We hope you have a great day.

What Is Calvinism?

[00:00:00] Cody: Hi, thank you for tuning in to the Logic of God podcast. I'm Cody, 


[00:00:19] Gina: I'm Gina, 


[00:00:19] Cody: and I'm Ben. If you're returning, thank you for coming back. And if you are a new guest, welcome. 


[00:00:41] Ben: Today, we wanted to start. launching into a series of us examining specific doctrines that are fairly controversial in the church. We do want to do our best to be unbiased. Obviously, we come into these things with our own biases, but we're going to try to be as fair as possible. So for today's episode, we're going to be looking at Calvinism versus Wesleyanism. 


[00:01:01] So Who was John Calvin? 


[00:01:04] Gina: Who wasn't John Calvin? 


[00:01:06] Ben: The majority of people, I think. 


[00:01:09] Gina: So, he was a French Christian reformer from the early 16th century. His father worked for the Roman Catholic Bishop, and he grew up familiar with Catholicism. He got his master's degree in theology from the University of Paris, and then his father fell out with the Catholic Church, caused him to change his goal from becoming a bishop to studying law. 


[00:01:33] While he was studying law, he came across some of the teachings of Martin Luther, as well as other Protestant writers, and he eventually became a Protestant himself. He was a major contributor to the Protestant Reformation, a movement that challenged the rule of the Pope and authority and teachings of the Catholic Church, and his teachings became the basis for several Protestant denominations, including Presbyterianism. 


[00:01:57] His writings include Institute of the Christian Religion, A Reply to Satellito, and Commentaries on the Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Romans. 


[00:02:08] Ben: Okay, so yeah, good summary of who Calvin was. Now what is it that Calvin taught? What is Calvinism? 


[00:02:15] Cody: Calvinism is going to be, it's covered in Tulip, but essentially it is the belief in predestination and determinism. 


[00:02:25] Gina: What's that? 


[00:02:26] Cody: Yeah, we should cover a lot of the Christianese even, because people don't know. Protestant? Let's start with that one. 


[00:02:32] Ben: We kind of covered that before in covering denominations. Essentially, Protestant is as separation from the Catholic Church in the branching off of the faith of Christianity. 


[00:02:43] There's Christianity at the top, the big C church, then splitting off, there's Catholicism and then Protestants and beneath Protestants, there's a whole bunch of different denominations. 


[00:02:53] Cody: Yep. Okay. Then, What Calvin wrote about and what Calvinism is can be summarized in the acronym TULIP. So he taught Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace, and Perseverance of the Saints. 


[00:03:11] Good job. From memory. Yeah, nice. Struggled there. Done it, did it by a 


[00:03:15] Ben: road. That's nice. That just tells you how great TULIP is as a memory aid. 


[00:03:18] Cody: Yeah. 


[00:03:18] Ben: So starting off, we'll go with Total Depravity. So. What did Calvin teach and what did he mean by total depravity? And the idea is that human beings are naturally evil and they're so evil that we are just completely irredeemable apart from God's forgiveness and his grace. 


[00:03:35] And as a result, while people can do good things apart from Christ, like they can be nice to their neighbors, they can love their children. They cannot actually be good people as their motivations to do those things that are good are based on selfish motives. And the backup that Calvin gave for this. 


[00:03:53] Among other things is, uh, Romans chapter 3, verses 23 through 24. For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Jesus Christ. So, everyone has sinned, we are inherently sinful, and there are plenty of other verses that give us that indication. 


[00:04:10] We are naturally sinful creatures as humans. So, stopping there, first, do we agree, do we disagree, and then two, is this a rib or a spine issue? Is this critical to salvation, or is this something that Christians can disagree on? 


[00:04:24] Gina: What about little kiddos? Like, do we think that five year olds are evil? 


[00:04:29] Ben: Well, Calvin did teach the idea of original sin. 


[00:04:32] This is the idea that we are sinful from birth, so yes, even babies would go to hell because they don't have the opportunity to choose salvation. 


[00:04:41] Cody: So, yay or nay? 


[00:04:43] Gina: Nay. Nay. Lil Sebastian says nay. 


[00:04:49] Cody: Um, do I think it is salvation dependent if you believe or don't believe this? No. I think you can be a Calvinist and be saved, and I think you can be a non Calvinist and be saved. 


[00:05:01] Ben: Okay. Well, addressing this specific item on total depravity and on original sin, is that something that is salvation dependent or is that not? 


[00:05:09] Cody: No, I think that's pretty much, there's a lot of other non Calvinist theologies that agree with the view of original sin. 


[00:05:19] Ben: Gina, what do you think? 


[00:05:20] Gina: My experience with people that are Like very deep into Calvinism is that total depravity almost becomes an excuse So I think that your belief on total depravity could potentially affect your salvation if you're not taking any Responsibility for like sinful behavior that would separate you from an eternal relationship with God If that makes sense. 


[00:05:43] Cody: I don't think they necessarily disagree with that. 


[00:05:47] Gina: Like, how can you repent if you can't help it? 


[00:05:50] Ben: You can't. So we aren't quite to that point yet. 


[00:05:53] Gina: Okay. 


[00:05:54] Ben: Because there are plenty of other denominations and teachings that do also say, State that we are inherently sinful. The question is, do you have the free will to turn from that sinfulness or do you not? 


[00:06:05] We haven't quite gotten to that point in Calvinism yet. That's a point that comes later. Okay, but just starting from the point of we are inherently sinful from birth. Is that a rib issue or is a spine issue? Is that a central issue or is that an orbital issue? Is that necessary for salvation or is it not? 


[00:06:19] Gina: I'm going to go with rib, but I stand by what I said. 


[00:06:24] Ben: Fair enough. I agree. I think this is something that, Christians can disagree on, and a lot of Christians do disagree on it. There is something that is taught in the church called the age of accountability. And it's the idea that children are completely innocent and they're brought into this world. 


[00:06:41] And as they grow older, yes, they do bad things, but they don't understand what it is that they're doing. And once you reach a certain age, you gain the understanding to do evil. And there is some scripture to back this up. There's the idea that when. Adam and Eve ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. 


[00:06:58] It was their understanding of good and evil that enabled them to do evil things. And it was understanding that brought evil into the world. Now there is some debate that can be had about that. I'm not married to the idea. I'm not totally for that idea. But I do find it difficult to make the argument that a newborn child or an unborn child is evil, and so if it dies, it goes straight to hell. 


[00:07:19] That doesn't mean that's wrong. That doesn't mean that it's right. That's my own personal hangup with it, admittedly. 


[00:07:25] Gina: I mean, that would be a big one for me as well, having had three children pass away before they were born, and having visions from God. Reassuring me that they were with him and not sent to hell 


[00:07:37] Ben: and the Calvinist rebuttal to that would be okay But that's what you would like to happen. 


[00:07:40] Gina: Yeah, 


[00:07:41] Ben: that doesn't mean that's what did happen and for me personally I would agree with you and there are similar things that have happened in my own family that have led us to that conclusion, but Regardless that doesn't mean that it's right And it is important to keep ourselves open to the possibility of that, but I do agree with you. 


[00:07:56] I think that is valid assurance, even if it's not specifically scriptural, that's the reason. I 


[00:08:01] Gina: mean, I'm very confident that it wasn't wishful thinking that gave me a vision. 


[00:08:07] Ben: Still, if we're going to argue a point as theology, it does need to be something that's know, 


[00:08:12] Gina: yeah. 


[00:08:13] Ben: So, that leads us to, okay, do we agree with it or disagree with it? 


[00:08:17] And we're kind of addressing that here. Okay. Yeah, I don't agree with this completely. I do agree that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. I do have trouble pinning exactly where I am on this specific issue, because yes, absolutely we all sin, and it's much easier for me to do evil than it is for me to do good. 


[00:08:35] You don't have to convince me that I have a sinful nature. And you don't have to convince me that I do need God, and that apart from God I'm nothing. The question is, for a newborn baby, or for young children, is that an evil nature that condemns them to hell if they die and they haven't become Christian or haven't accepted Christ? 


[00:08:53] That I'm not certain of, but it would be difficult for me to argue specifically for that. I don't know about you guys. 


[00:09:02] Cody: To expand on this a little bit further, the idea of total depravity and original sin started with St. Augustine and John Calvin expanded on his teaching of it. But he also affirmed the teaching of inherited sin from Adam. 


[00:09:19] Like not just we're inherently sinful, but we inherited the sin of Adam. the entire human race too. And that is something that I struggled to find in a biblical standpoint that we inherit the sin of our forefathers. But I do agree that we're all sinful. We all have a sin nature. We all fall short of the glory of God. 


[00:09:41] Ben: Well, and there's also the question of Whether or not we're all inherently sinful, like, we can say that even children, even babies are inherently sinful or have a sinful nature. The question is, does Christ's sacrifice cover all sin and all sinful nature? 


[00:09:56] Gina: So, for me, I don't know, like the argument that I have with Cody a lot is more to do with like human psychology. 


[00:10:04] If you think about the way that babies are born and like moms have their babies and then they're like instinctively wired to do certain things. Like you could say that an infant wanting to nurse with its mother and being hungry and crying when it doesn't get taken care of is like a form of selfishness. 


[00:10:27] But it's also like we're hardwired to survive. And I have a very hard time putting inherent evil in the same category as a human being that has been designed by God. Like to know what to do to survive and I have three kids. So like I don't know like I just can't equate the Tendencies with total depravity with my children. 


[00:10:54] So I just have a really hard time agreeing with it 


[00:10:57] Ben: Well, there's a reason we don't apply Adult human laws to children, 


[00:11:01] Gina: but even so, when you talk about the age of account accountability, usually that's like 12 to 13 


[00:11:07] Ben: usually 


[00:11:08] Gina: my daughter, my oldest daughter is 12 and she made the decision like 15 months ago to get baptized, but she's made some poor life choices since then. 


[00:11:17] That doesn't mean to me that she's lost her salvation, though, or anything. It's more just she's still learning. But I do believe she has come to a point where she knows better. Different 


[00:11:28] Ben: than the other little ones. Yeah. Yeah. 


[00:11:30] Gina: Yeah. 


[00:11:31] Ben: I can remember for myself when I was a kid, I did a lot of stupid stuff, but it was because I didn't understand the rules of the world yet. 


[00:11:38] I acted purely out of ignorance. And that's why my parents were much more gentle with me when I was making dumb decisions as a kid. Versus when I was making dumb decisions as a teenager, or worse yet, dumb decisions as a full adult. We all recognize that there are stages of life where we have more and more responsibility. 


[00:11:55] And it's tough to imagine a world in which God doesn't apply the same reasoning to us. And there's the point where Christ is being crucified and he says, What did his father forgive them for? They don't know what they are doing. Even God recognizes that there is an element of intent in evil. These people were acting thinking that they were doing justice, and they weren't. 


[00:12:14] And so he was asking for forgiveness for them. Now again, that doesn't mean that this doctrine is wrong in saying that all of us are sinful from birth. But it is an objection, and I do think it's a valid objection, even if it's not 100 percent grounded in scripture, I do think there are certain points that do need to be addressed here. 


[00:12:32] Gina: We definitely wrestle, and God acknowledges this throughout scripture, we definitely wrestle with things like pride and ego and, um, love of money and possessions and things like that. So I can see where, you know, that wrestling could be interpreted as that type of depravity, even if we're not feeling like murdering or pillaging or whatever, but we still have these small voice kind of the thing inside of us that says like, well, what about me? 


[00:13:00] Where's mine? And kind of a thing. 


[00:13:02] Ben: Yeah, all sin gets between us and God. That's the idea. You don't have to be a murderer for your sin to start interfering with your life and God's life. It's the idea that you are choosing your own path separate from what God wants from you. You thinking, Cody? 


[00:13:14] Cody: I am. 


[00:13:14] There's a couple of good quotes on this. Maya Angelou is one of them. And the, I can't remember the quote word for word. Are you 


[00:13:25] Gina: quoting poetry? I 


[00:13:27] Cody: am. Yeah. She talks about. How the, all the evil that exists in the world, every human being is capable of that, but on the reverse side, all of the good in the world, every human being is also capable of that. 


[00:13:42] And then. Jordan Peterson in Maps of Meaning also covers something similar on this topic where he's studying the, the behavior of inmates and aggression and, and inmates and that type of mentality. And he kind of pushes himself to what would it take for himself to come to the point of physically harming another person. 


[00:14:06] And he got to that point while he was going through College classes and stuff just an instinctively like he talks about Jabbing a pencil in the back of somebody's head or something like that and he didn't know where that came from But it's also this he was around that type of behavior. So it kind of influenced him as well 


[00:14:25] Ben: Yeah, he recognized that he was not only capable of doing horrible things But it would be very easy for him to flip to the point where he could do them. 


[00:14:33] Yeah And, again, it's important for us to remember that Scripture is the standard here. And that should be the thing that informs us on the eternal concepts that we're talking about. And this is an eternal concept, salvation and the inherent sinfulness of humans. I think all of us here absolutely agree that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. 


[00:14:53] All of us are sinful. All of us need salvation. Agreed. Yeah. The question is whether or not the sinfulness of children is something that's held against them. So point number two 


[00:15:04] Gina: No, it's point number B 


[00:15:07] Ben: point letter B the you and to loop stands for unconditional election and For unconditional election. 


[00:15:15] It's the idea that God has set aside a specific number of people to be saved by him 


[00:15:20] Gina: Wait, are you talking about Jehovah's Witness again 


[00:15:22] Ben: sort of? 


[00:15:27] So, everyone not chosen by Him to save is destined for hell due to their inherent sinfulness. He does not set aside people to be saved based on intelligence or wisdom, or because He knew that you would choose Him if He gave you the opportunity. Rather, He knew these selected people before the world was created, and He chose them before they were born and loves them unconditionally based on no effort or doing on their part. 


[00:15:52] And this does imply that God does not love those who are not saved. 


[00:15:57] Gina: I feel like you just threw together both religions from the last episode and read me a paragraph about them. 


[00:16:03] Ben: Both Mormonism and Jehovah's Witnesses? Yes. So it is a little bit reminiscent of that, just a little bit. But what do you guys feel on that? 


[00:16:11] Because they do have some, uh, Scripture to back this up. First, they will quote Isaiah chapter 46, verses 10 through 11, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose. Calling a bird of prey from the east, the man of my council, from the far country I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass. 


[00:16:35] I have purposed and I will do it essentially saying whatever God wills is going to happen. Then Romans chapter nine, verses 14 through 16. What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means, for he says to Moses, I have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. 


[00:16:55] So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God who has mercy. So, full stop there. What do you guys think? 


[00:17:04] Cody: I would like to throw one more in that backs up Calvinism. It's later on in Romans. Yeah, go for it. Has the potter no right over the clay to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 


[00:17:18] That is a constant source text for Tulip. 


[00:17:23] Ben: So once again, do we feel like this is a spine issue or a rib issue? 


[00:17:28] Cody: This one is more leaning on spine issue for me, because this gets into more of the determinism side of Calvinism. 


[00:17:39] Gina: What's determinism? 


[00:17:41] Cody: Determinism is absolutely everything is predestined, foreknown, and determined by God. 


[00:17:48] Ben: Yeah, essentially there is no free will. 


[00:17:50] Cody: At all. Any. None. So we're all robots. 


[00:17:53] Gina: No, it's a dollhouse. 


[00:17:55] Cody: Yeah. Now that's another good explanation for it. We're just toys. We're entertainment. But so this one touches on determinism a little. For me, it kind of nullifies a lot of the gospel as well. Go out and make disciples. 


[00:18:10] I mean, if they're all already selected by God, kind of. 


[00:18:14] Gina: But Cody, you always tell me, are we really called to make disciples or were the disciples called to make disciples? 


[00:18:22] Cody: I do make that, but not too many people do . 


[00:18:26] Ben: Well, and even so let's say that it was just the disciples. Did the disciples have a choice? 


[00:18:31] Gina: Well, Jesus told them to. So no. 


[00:18:34] Ben: Well, no, he, they could have said no. And if it was Judas said, no, 


[00:18:36] Cody: God's will for you to be saved. It wouldn't matter at all. God's will is God's will. So your. 


[00:18:43] Gina: Yeah, but then if God's will was for you to not be saved, then that means he doesn't love you and you're not special. 


[00:18:47] Correct. 


[00:18:50] Cody: Jacob, he loved Esau, he hated I would be Esau. 


[00:18:53] Ben: So for me, I would say that I don't see this as being a spine issue unless you make it that. So the question is, what does your belief in this cause you to do? If this particular part of the doctrine is something that causes you to think, Well, okay, I'm just saved, and that's it. 


[00:19:11] And God chose me, and he didn't choose anyone else, and that's it. And no matter what I do, I am saved from here on out. 


[00:19:18] Gina: Do you get like a form letter that reassures you of that? No, 


[00:19:22] Ben: no. In fact, if you fall away from the faith, then it means you were never saved in the first place. But let's say that you remain saved for the rest of your life. 


[00:19:29] Well, it means that there's literally nothing for you to do. You're just there and God chose you and God is forcing you to be chosen because you couldn't choose anything else. 


[00:19:37] Gina: Does it give you the authority to judge the salvation of other people because you are called and therefore you can identify if they are called? 


[00:19:44] Ben: Well, you don't have a choice. But yeah, as far as it being Hmm I don't truly think it is necessarily a spine issue. I think that if you let it be something that causes you to just stay rooted and not do anything and it poisons your outlook on life to the point where you feel like nothing you do matters, it can cause you to fall out of salvation. 


[00:20:05] I think so. I do disagree with Calvinism on this point specifically. I do think that you can genuinely be a Christian at one time in your life and fall out. And that does necessitate, necessitate free will, unfortunately, but getting aside from that, sticking for now on whether or not it's a spine or a rib issue. 


[00:20:24] Yeah. I think that there are people I've known one or two people. And to be fair, I was actually taught this when I was younger, I was taught that not quite to this degree. Mm hmm. But I was taught that God chooses the people who love him. And so that is essentially this portion of Calvinism. And there are different degrees of Calvinism. 


[00:20:42] So we don't have to get into that quite yet. But yeah, I was taught that God chose me. And there are parts of the Bible that do indicate this. That God does reach out to people. That God does choose people. And he did choose the 12 disciples. He did choose his disciples. His prophets he did choose individual people throughout the Bible and he did know what was going to happen as a result So you can't fully discount this particular interpretation regardless of how much credence you give it So in some way it does have a point and I do think that it's a point worth making Because it is leaning heavily on the idea that God is all powerful That his will is irresistible, and that he does have a plan, and we all believe in those things. 


[00:21:22] And so it's taking that to another degree in logic, which is saying that if you can't deny his will, and he does have a plan, and he's all powerful, and exists in all times, how could he possibly not know what you're going to do? Which is a reasonable point. So I can't fault someone for being a Christian and then looking at all that and saying, well, obviously I don't have free will because he knows everything I'm going to do and I can't resist as well. 


[00:21:48] And I've known some Christians like that. And like I said, I was like that at one point in my life and I was still a Christian. So I would say that again, it depends on how you approach this, what it does to your life. If you continue essentially to live, like it's not the case, you continue to live as if you do have free will. 


[00:22:04] Because you love the Lord and you want to do what's right, then no, I don't think it's a spine issue, but if you let this specific point define your life, then yes, I do think it will be. 


[00:22:13] Gina: It's got a certain element of like mental gymnastics to it because you can't really be certain that you're elected, but you can't really be certain that other people are either. 


[00:22:24] And it takes away some of the purpose behind like evangelism or treating other people with kindness and love. And that kind of brings to question like the verse, God opposes the proud, but shows favor to the humble because the people that I know that believe this tulip letter, you like very strong are extremely prideful people. 


[00:22:45] And to know that God opposes the proud, like I wouldn't want to be God's opponent. So I think it can be a spine issue just from the perspective of pride, um, because you're not then obeying. Pretty much anything else that the Bible says, and if you're not being obedient, like I said before, if you're not repenting, then I don't know that you can be saved. 


[00:23:10] Ben: Well, and the pride is not necessarily something that's being taught as an aspect of the Calvinist doctrine because it says specifically, this is not because of anything that you did or anything you can do or any qualities you have any control over. God chose you before time. So, 


[00:23:26] Gina: but the fact that they're so sure. 


[00:23:29] And the fact that they, like, I've heard people use Calvinism as more like, I know more than you. God said so. You can't question it. Conversation over. I say it in a much less respectful way. 


[00:23:43] Cody: For sure. There's that, those people on every side, but I agree the hyper Calvinists you meet tend to be a little bit more aggressive and close minded. 


[00:23:55] Well, to be fair, they don't have a choice. 


[00:23:57] Gina: That is my 


[00:23:58] Ben: favorite. That's my favorite 


[00:23:59] Gina: button. Does the drum 


[00:24:01] Ben: that 


[00:24:06] Gina: was predetermined. 


[00:24:07] Ben: Yeah. I think this particular point. It's Achilles heel, unfortunately, is the idea that you just don't have a choice. 


[00:24:14] Cody: This one is more of a spine issue for me. I don't think it has to be, but like you said, it can be if you let it, and it tends to be. 


[00:24:24] The Calvinist worldview likes to harp on its view of the sovereignty of God. And so much so that it also makes God the bad guy. 


[00:24:36] Gina: Hmm. I love how you, like in previous episodes, you've mentioned if we don't have a choice with God, like you word it so much better. So you should rephrase it when I'm done butchering it. 


[00:24:49] But it's basically like, if we don't have free will, then we're basically either puppets or we're choosing God out of fear. Not because we actually love him. Do you know what I'm talking about? 


[00:25:01] Cody: I don't know. I like, I do talk about this a lot, but I don't know the specific saying. You say it 


[00:25:06] Gina: all the time. 


[00:25:07] Cody: I do say, I know what you're talking about, but I don't know the saying that you're referring to. 


[00:25:11] Ben: Well, in this particular instance, you wouldn't even be choosing God at all. You couldn't be doing it out of love or fear. He has chosen you. 


[00:25:18] Gina: But then that says so much about the other people, the other not 144, 000. Oh, wait. 


[00:25:25] Cody: Yeah, this one is the determined, so total depravity I can get on board with, like for the most part with some limitations and borders, but the unconditional election is difficult for me. 


[00:25:38] Cause if you truly believe it, then I think it is a spine issue. Like if you act out on your belief, then it is a spine issue. 


[00:25:49] Ben: And the trouble that I have with it. Is that let's say that you're an evangelist and a Calvinist and you're going out into a community and you're thinking okay I'm gonna go out and save some people. 


[00:25:59] Well one it doesn't matter what you say The people who are out there have already been chosen by God to be saved. If you chose not to go out at all and evangelize, these people would be saved anyway. It's not your effort. It doesn't matter what you do. The people who God has chosen will be saved. And He doesn't choose them based on what you are going to do. 


[00:26:17] Your involvement in this is purely incidental. And God can either force you to do it, or he can literally just put the faith in them, directly. So, there's no purpose to actual evangelism. There's no purpose to learning more about God once you're saved. And you can't even learn more about God, because what you know about God is what God has given you to know. 


[00:26:39] Again, it's not based on effort. It's not based on intent. It's not based on your own personal ability. It's nothing that you can improve or lose, either you already have it or you don't. So there's no growth towards God. There's no becoming more like God by your own effort. There's no point in study. 


[00:26:55] There's no point in arguing this. And I have been very confused about why there are Calvinists who will argue and try to convince people of Calvinism when Calvinism doesn't even matter if you believe it or not. 


[00:27:07] Gina: Well, because the argument is always You don't understand because you're not elect. That's the But then I can't 


[00:27:14] Ben: understand. 


[00:27:15] But that's the elitist, 


[00:27:16] Gina: prideful personality that comes out. It's like, well, I'm in the club and you're not, and you can't sit with us. Like, that's the way that it comes across, and I hate it. 


[00:27:26] Cody: It is. I mean, the church has its own clickiness all around, no matter what, but. 


[00:27:32] Gina: People want to belong to a club. They want to feel like they're important. 


[00:27:35] And feeling like they have one up on another person with salvation makes them feel good, and I hate that. Like, if that's how you feel, you should probably go pray on that. 


[00:27:44] Ben: Now, to be fair, there is still the question of God's sovereignty and His will and His power. And if God is existing in all places at all times, and if He is all powerful, and if He does have a plan, and we can't resist His will, then how can we have free will? 


[00:27:59] Cody: The question would be, can you resist God's will? And, unless you believe God willed sin? Then we can resist God's will like you have to affirm that God willed 


[00:28:13] Ben: sin. Otherwise, we have free will what would you say that sin was a part of God's plan? Did that just happen and he had no clue it was gonna happen. 


[00:28:21] Cody: I think he knew it was gonna happen, but God One we know he's a creator God. He loves to create He wants community, just how the church and the relationship and what we read about the relationship between us and Jesus is. So he wants that relationship. I mean, he's a superior being to us, obviously. So he demands worship and honor, but I think we've talked about it. 


[00:28:47] I don't know if it's one that we've released or not, but like the relationship with kids, like why do people want to have kids? And I think it's very much the same reason for God. He wants to equip others to have purpose and harmony in his idea and plan. 


[00:29:08] Gina: I think one of the best examples advocating for what you're saying is the story of Noah and how God regretted making the people that he wiped off the earth and then the civilizations that he has wiped off the earth in the Bible. 


[00:29:24] Like people have made decisions. That have isolated them so far from God that they needed to be destroyed. 


[00:29:31] Ben: But in the instances like where you, you just mentioned. God felt regret. God was grieved at making man. Was that a mistake? 


[00:29:40] Gina: Was, like, all of mankind a mistake? Is that what you're asking? 


[00:29:42] Ben: When, there's the passage in the Bible right before the flood where he says that he feels regret at making man. 


[00:29:48] Did he feel regret because he made a mistake? Did he know that was going to happen or did he not know? 


[00:29:53] Gina: God knows everything. He knows the possibilities. He knows our thoughts before we say them. If He knows our thoughts before we say them, before we've even decided to say them, then He, He does have foreknowledge, but We have the option to choose left or right. 


[00:30:08] Ben: Well, but how would you if he already knows if you're going to choose left or right? 


[00:30:12] Gina: I don't think that Oh, go ahead. 


[00:30:13] Cody: Choice doesn't deter, foreknowledge doesn't determine choice. Like it's, Pastor Dan uses the analogy like that flight 2732 out of West Palm Beach is predestined to go to Atlanta. But, you can choose to be on that flight or not choose to be on that flight. 


[00:30:32] And I think that's a good analogy of kind of foreknowledge and election as well. There can be foreknowledge, but not, and still be choice inside of that. 


[00:30:45] Ben: Well, the trouble with that analogy is that God is the one literally willing things. So the question is, is he willing everything to end up as it is? Or does he know that it's going to be that way and allowing it? 


[00:30:56] And could force things to be one way or the other, but isn't. 


[00:31:00] Gina: I mean, that would imply that God wants people to suffer, wants people to be in pain, wants sin to happen. 


[00:31:07] Ben: Not necessarily. Like, that's a point that C. S. Lewis talks about. It's like, when your mother comes to your room when you're a child and tells you to clean your room, she wants your room to be cleaned. 


[00:31:17] But a lot of the times, when you're a kid, you don't do it. Because you're being rebellious. And if she really wants the room cleaned, she can do it herself. Does she want the room not cleaned when she asks you to clean it? No, she allows the fact that it's going to be unclean, and she's going to have to punish you at some point, and she doesn't want to do that, but the point is she's trying to teach you a lesson. 


[00:31:37] The idea is that God doesn't necessarily want the pain or the suffering that exists in this world, but all of that needs to happen in order for us to have a choice. Because if you don't have something to choose aside from Him, you don't have a choice. And unfortunately, when you're choosing between God and an alternative, the only alternative to there being God is there being nothing. 


[00:31:58] And the nothingness is the pain. It's the suffering. 


[00:32:01] Cody: I do think you can get to a point where choices are determined for you to a certain extent. J. P. Marlin makes the argument for free will, but uses the analogy of jumping out of a plane after you've jumped out of the plane, you know, you're going to touch the ground at some point, but you can't go back on jumping out of the plane and be in the plane again. 


[00:32:25] So 1 choice is going to lead to another 1, no matter what. Whether you open your chute or you just go splat, but there are choices up to that one that you made that still has determined choices. 


[00:32:39] Ben: There's a passage in Esther that I like to cite when talking about free will, and there's a part where Esther is considering whether or not she's going to go and talk to King Xerxes. 


[00:32:48] And Mordecai is sending her letters to encourage her. And he says, Know that God will find a way to save the Jews, even if you don't help. But, you and your family will die. And who knows but that God put you here for this exact purpose. I feel like that kind of encompasses this whole thing. One, God did put Esther at that position. 


[00:33:11] For a specific purpose. Two, Esther had a choice. And unless we consider this to be a complete falsehood or God's lying to us in this particular part of the Bible, we have to assume that it's true. She could have rejected it. But, if she did, she and her family would have died. 


[00:33:28] Gina: This reminds me of the story of your dad and the cheating pastor. 


[00:33:31] Ben: God has a plan. God knows what you are going to do. He lets you make a choice. Now that doesn't mean that we understand the nature of this. We really don't. We can come up with analogies for us to deal with. Kind of try to make sense of it, but in the end God is beyond us And we're not going to understand his infinite nature or his power or his will. 


[00:33:47] We're children reading the instruction manual to a tank. Like, there's nothing we can do here. We can try, but ultimately, I do think that the Bible tells us enough to say that one, God is in control. Two, your choices matter. 


[00:34:00] Cody: Yeah, cause there's another one where Saul has surrounded David, and David prays and asks if he stays, if he'll die, and yeah, God says yes, so he flees. 


[00:34:11] So is, does God, is there a multiverse or? Yeah. So if God foreknew that he would die if he stayed, and then he chooses to go the other way and run and survive, does The foreknowledge is just a split in the multiverse. 


[00:34:25] Ben: Yeah, with God being infinitely powerful and controlling every aspect of your life and every choice that you make, there would be no if. 


[00:34:33] There is only what. 


[00:34:34] Gina: But there are like planets, right? 


[00:34:40] Ben: So like, the solar system. Magnets. 


[00:34:43] Gina: No, I was referring to the Mormon. I know, they're like 


[00:34:47] Ben: other gods, right? No, it's okay. This is like Mars have its own God. 


[00:34:51] Gina: Well, that's self proclaimed it already. Like 


[00:34:57] Ben: he's the God of Mars. Okay. So next up for tulip, we cover the T and U the L is limited or particular atonement. 


[00:35:08] Gina: Why it's there yet? 


[00:35:10] Ben: So the idea behind limited atonement is that Christ was sent to die on the cross only for the people he selected before time to be saved. His sacrifice was not for anyone else, only for the people he has chosen to save. And the explanation that's given for this is that. is the idea that unbelief is a sin. 


[00:35:28] So, if Christ died for all sin, but still sends unbelievers to hell, he would actually be acting unjustly. So, his sacrifice can only be for the people he set aside, and not for anyone else. And the chapter verses that they give in defense for this is John chapter 10, verses 14 through 15. I am the good shepherd, I know my own, and my own know me, just as the Father knows me, and I know the Father, and I lay down my life for the sheep. 


[00:35:55] So he lays down his life for his sheep, according to the verse. 


[00:35:59] Cody: Yeah, the definition within Tulip I don't necessarily agree with. I do believe in limited atonement. So non universalism. Well, there are, not everyone is going to be saved. Yep. And I do think this L was specific to Calvin's time and the, I think it was origin who came up with universalism or kind of steamrolled it. 


[00:36:23] I could be wrong. 


[00:36:24] Ben: I don't know enough about origin to tell you. 


[00:36:26] Cody: He's way before Calvin, 


[00:36:28] Ben: but 


[00:36:28] Cody: that popped up again during the time of Calvin, I believe, but kind of combating that because universalism is not biblical. Agreed. But I don't agree with this definition either, but I would think this is more of a rib rather than spine. 


[00:36:43] Ben: Agreed. Yeah, I think that you can think that not everyone's going to be saved. It's tough in that they're adding some additional points to that. That seemed to be a bit 


[00:36:54] Gina: exclusive. A bit, 


[00:36:56] Ben: yeah, a bit cold too, like. It's tough because we come from a background where the church is called to be very warm and loving and kind, and we're trying to bring the gospel to the world, and that's part of the Great Commission. 


[00:37:09] And so as part of the Great Commission, God hates everyone who's not going to be saved. 


[00:37:14] Gina: The Bible says that God hates five things, but I'm not one. Yay. 


[00:37:19] Cody: No, I think this is very connected to, you know, 


[00:37:23] Gina: The last one. 


[00:37:23] Cody: Yes. I think it's so is the neck. The eye is also 


[00:37:28] Ben: the, I think this is done as a justification for the previous one. 


[00:37:33] Like it's an attempt to try to make certain things meld. So it's a doctrine that's used to try to supplement another doctrine because they see a line in logic and they think, okay, so these two things can't coexist. God can't love literally everybody, but then not choose literally everybody. And then also unbelief if it's a sin. 


[00:37:52] It's something that he can't forgive because if he forgave it, then literally everyone would be saved. 


[00:37:56] Gina: I feel like I'm buying Norwex and it's a pyramid scheme. 


[00:38:00] Ben: Jeez, Gina, tell us what you really think. 


[00:38:03] Gina: I didn't promise to be pro. 


[00:38:07] Cody: No, and like before, there's a lot that we're going against Calvinism here because none of us follow the reformed theological worldview, but there is a lot I respect about Calvinism to you. 


[00:38:19] Uh huh. The free will tend to have a lower view of God's sovereignty and way too much teetering on open theism on the other side. What's open 


[00:38:32] Gina: theism? 


[00:38:33] Cody: Open theism, basically, you know what you're going to eat before God does. Kind of sums it up. 


[00:38:38] Ben: Yeah, God doesn't really have control over anything. 


[00:38:40] Cody: Yeah. 


[00:38:40] Ben: Yeah, I agree like again I think that Calvinists are saved. 


[00:38:43] I think they're every bit as saved as you or I I do think that Just like with people who are so obsessed with free will that they make that a certain part of their essential part of their life I think there are people who take the idea of free will and say because I have the choice I have to choose I have to choose literally everything. 


[00:39:01] And the fact that I need to have a choice in literally everything is a sacred thing. 


[00:39:05] Gina: That's intentional. Like there's an intentionality there. That's valuable. 


[00:39:09] Ben: But it also leads people to make very wrong choices. Like it's part of the idea behind Satanism. It's the idea that choice is the sacred thing and not what you choose. 


[00:39:19] And I think that's a very important aspect that Calvinists and 


[00:39:23] Gina: Satanists. 


[00:39:24] Ben: No, it's so, It's polar opposite ends of the spectrum. There's the one side that is so focused on choice, that they say that regardless of what you choose, it's the choice that's sacred. And then there are people who say you have no choice, because you are being determined by the thing that is holy and pure. 


[00:39:42] And I can see that. Aspects of both sides of that argument that are right. I do think that it's somewhere in the middle It's important and valuable if you choose the right thing, but making the wrong choice is still the wrong choice But you still need to acknowledge that you have a choice to begin with if you don't think you have a choice then it doesn't matter But no, I agree with you. 


[00:40:02] I think that there are definitely positives here and Calvinists do give great deference to God's power and his authority. That above all else. And I think that's very important. 


[00:40:12] Cody: Yeah. I appreciate and respect the view of God that. Calvinism portrays and encourages, I don't value the laziness that it can encourage and we'll cover that more. 


[00:40:26] Ben: So we've covered T U L, now we're at I. Irresistible grace. If God chooses you to be saved, you cannot refuse. It will happen and must happen since God is all powerful and no one can resist His will. And they give the example of John chapter 6 verse 37. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 


[00:40:51] Now, my problem with using that specific chapter and verse that says that God will never cast them out. It doesn't say that you will never leave. It's God's will that everyone will be safe. God loves all of us. It isn't God that's casting us out. It's us who choose to leave. 


[00:41:06] Cody: Yep. Oh, I like that. That's, I mean, it would never be God wanting you to leave, or kicking you out, in my opinion. 


[00:41:13] This is another one I struggle with a lot, in Tulip, because, I don't know how to explain it without being a trigger. 


[00:41:21] Gina: You can always give a trigger warning. 


[00:41:24] Cody: Irresistible Grace, to me, comes across as, like, you have no choices for yourself. Forcing himself on you. It doesn't make sense to me. And I have a huge issue with this one, particularly just because it's connected to the regeneration and all that. 


[00:41:39] And like the, this doesn't make sense. Like if you're regenerated and you have this irresistible grace and the Holy Spirit, like, why do Calvinists still sin at that point? And. 


[00:41:53] Ben: So I feel like a lot of the stuff taught in Calvinism is essentially an author writing a book. And if you're writing a book, all of the characters have no choice in what they do. 


[00:42:02] And you love your characters, and you love the story, and that's why you're doing it. But ultimately, they're less than you, because they're just characters in a story. And they have no choice in what they do. That doesn't mean that it's not valuable. And I think that's the idea behind Calvinist teachings. 


[00:42:17] It's God is the author and we are the story. And I'm not completely against that kind of a thought. I don't think it's right, but at the same time it's not completely wrong. And I do, there are examples of people who talk about how God was essentially a hunter and he pursued them mercilessly. Like that's something that Joy Lewis talks about. 


[00:42:38] That's something that C. S. Lewis talks about. How God was the hunter. He was the jungle cat that silently stalked and then pounced at the moment of weakness. But they both agreed that they had a choice. 


[00:42:50] Gina: But you wouldn't have had a choice if you didn't have a moment of weakness. Agreed. 


[00:42:54] Ben: Now, the question is, are there people who are a part of God's plan, so he chooses them and then uses them, and they didn't have a choice in that? 


[00:43:02] Cody: It's hard, and I don't know where I stand on this. But I see the election and predestination train of thought very prevalent in the biblical characters, but I think it's also very prideful to put ourselves into the position of the patriarchs and the characters that we read in the Bible. We don't hear about the other 600, 000 Israelites that walked around the camp. 


[00:43:32] There's not stories about them and their choice. We hear about God's called and elected prophets and patriarchs and all of that. So I think I see it more in the biblical story, but there's not very much information outside of the main characters, so to speak, in the 


[00:43:52] Ben: Well, even in the case of the biblical stories, if we go with Moses, there was the point where Moses was up Mount Sinai and he was frustrated because the Israelites had done a complete 180 while he was up there the first time and they were making golden calves and stuff. 


[00:44:08] And God said, okay, I'm going to wipe out this generation and we'll start anew. And Moses says, No, please don't do that, because then the nations will think that you're unfair and you're unjust. Please give us another chance. And he does. The interesting thing is that he still ends up wiping out that entire generation, just much later. 


[00:44:24] And it's because of choices that they make, still. Because they're the same people who made these terrible decisions to begin with. If Moses hadn't spoken up and hadn't asked God not to do this, Which he was going to end up doing anyway. He would have entered the promised land. Like it was through the wandering through the desert for 40 years and some of the decisions that he made while he was out in the desert that led to him not entering the promised land. 


[00:44:48] He got to see the promised land. He did not from 


[00:44:50] Cody: a cliff. He 


[00:44:51] Ben: was 120 years old and the Bible makes it clear that he could have lived longer and that he was still in good health, but he died. It was the time. So yeah, it could have been Moses that entered the promised land and did all of those incredible things that Joshua did. 


[00:45:04] Instead, Moses made the choice that he did. He wandered through the desert for 40 years. He died and then Joshua took over. So yeah, I would say even with the patriarchs, there is the element of choice still there. Even with the most important people in the Bible, the choice is still there. 


[00:45:19] Gina: Do you think Moses had a choice when God was like, take your sandals off? 


[00:45:23] Do you think God would have just struck him down? 


[00:45:25] Ben: Okay, forget about it, Aaron. Well, so even with that, like he, in that conversation, he tells Moses to go and to speak to Pharaoh. And Moses is like, I'm terrible at talking. He's like, okay, fine, then Aaron will speak for you. But how much more powerful would it have been if Moses had been the one to speak? 


[00:45:44] Cody: There's a lot of back and forth dialogue that doesn't make a lot of sense in a Calvinistic worldview. 


[00:45:50] Ben: Yeah. 


[00:45:50] Cody: Like the whole interaction where Moses almost dies, like God's angry at him. His wife cuts his son's foreskin off and slaps it on his toes and he's instantly healed. Like, why does that make sense? 


[00:46:03] If he's a elected to do this great thing. Like, why go through that? And it's the same thing with the interaction before destroying Sodom and Gomorrah. Abraham's pleading is that if there's 50 good people, spare them. God goes, comes back. If there's 20, 30, 30, 30, 25, like spare them. He doesn't find anybody. 


[00:46:25] But why even go through that interaction if there's not choice and there's not this Like, showing Abraham that he is fair and merciful and just, if you believe in all this predestination for knowledge determinism. Well, I'm not, oh, sorry, go ahead. 


[00:46:44] Gina: How do you explain, conversely, in the New Testament when Jesus predicts that Peter will reject him three times, and he does? 


[00:46:51] What 


[00:46:52] Ben: do you, what do you 


[00:46:52] Cody: mean, 


[00:46:53] Ben: how do you? 


[00:46:53] Gina: Like, wouldn't that be predetermined? 


[00:46:55] Ben: Well, the question is, did he know that Peter would choose that? Or did he choose it for Peter? 


[00:46:59] Gina: That's what I'm asking you. 


[00:47:00] Ben: I mean, 


[00:47:01] Cody: I don't think 


[00:47:01] Ben: he 


[00:47:01] Cody: chose that for Peter. I think he knew Peter's character. 


[00:47:04] Ben: What is not, I don't even think it's just that. 


[00:47:06] I think, it's tough because we're talking about God's eternal nature, and it's not something we're ever going to fully understand. But my understanding of it is that God exists at all points in time. To him, all time is the present. He is presently there now, experiencing Peter denying Christ and the rooster crowing twice. 


[00:47:24] He's there with us now, as we're speaking with, as we're speaking to one another. He is there with us now when we first met. He is there now when you were first born. All time is the present. So what he's talking about is something he's seeing right now. So I'm watching you guys right now and I can describe what you're doing right now. 


[00:47:41] Does that mean that I'm forcing you to do it? 


[00:47:43] Cody: Yes, I'm on this podcast against my will. 


[00:47:47] Ben: He needs help. I'm 


[00:47:50] Cody: blinking twice if you can. 


[00:47:54] Gina: Well, the only reason that I ask is like, Even for Judas, like, did Judas have a choice? Could Judas have said no? Because some of the prophecy, I think, is confirmed through these predictions of what people are going to do. 


[00:48:09] And in a lot of instances, I think it's hard to determine, as just like your average Christian, was this something that God made happen or is this something that was chosen? Like, Jesus dying on the cross was kind of inevitable. Would they have found another Judas? 


[00:48:26] Ben: Well, the question is These are all 


[00:48:27] Gina: hypothetical. 


[00:48:27] No, 


[00:48:27] Ben: I understand. And they need to be treated as possible because if people have a choice, then there were other possibilities. Other things could have happened. The question is, does he take our choices into account rather than forcing our choices around what he wants? That's the question. Now, I can see arguments for both. 


[00:48:45] I think it's probably somewhere in the middle. It's like what Forrest Gump says, is everything determined or do we have a choice? I think it's a bit of both. And I think that's reasonable. Like we said with Esther. She was put there, which means that there were things that were forced to happen. Now, there's also the idea that like, with Ahab's son, Like, because Ahab repented, the punishment that was meant for Ahab was put on his son. 


[00:49:08] But his son was a terrible person in his own right. It's not like his son was a righteous man, and so an unjust punishment was put on him. Judas was a bad guy. He wasn't forced to be bad. So, it's tough. Was he chosen because he was bad, or was he made bad so that it was going to happen? For him, I would say it's probably both. 


[00:49:25] It's tough to say exactly. 


[00:49:27] Cody: It's hard because, and one of the reasons I hate these conversations on different soteriological views, which That's just a big word for discussion of salvation, but we try to put God in a box, and it's not beneficial at all, most of the time, because we're missing another aspect of the spiritual, which we have. 


[00:49:54] very little knowledge and understanding of, of the influence of what angels and other spirits have on us as well. Because you have the interaction with this, it's a courtroom scene, and I can't remember, which I knew. Basically, God asks. How they're going to convince the king what 


[00:50:15] Ben: yeah, so there's two kings. 


[00:50:16] I think it was King Ahab. Was it Ahab? No, it was the kings of Israel and Judah. I can't remember exactly who it was, but I'm pretty sure it was Ahab and it was after the time of Elisha. But they were going to go to war against the king of Assyria and the king of Judah wanted to inquire of the Lord. 


[00:50:34] Whether or not they should do it and Ahab's like, well, there is one prophet of the Lord left, but I hate him because he's always saying bad things about me and then they go there and then he tells them about the scene in heaven that he saw where God has a whole bunch of spirits around them and he asked them, I want to entice the King Ahab to go to war against Assyria and then there's the spirit that comes forward and says, I will put a lying spirit in the mouths of his prophets that will encourage him and then he'll go and then God says, you will succeed, make it so. 


[00:51:03] Uh, The thing that I've always found interesting about that story is that God allows the truth to come out and Ahab still makes a choice and he doesn't make a choice based on a lie. And he, both the king of Israel and the king of Judah at that point know the truth and they know that this is a prophet of the Lord and they know that they can trust the word of the prophet of the Lord. 


[00:51:20] They still make a choice against it. 


[00:51:22] Cody: Yep. No, he still uses it as an opportunity to choose the right thing rather than this other influence that's there. But I think we discount that other influence a lot of the time. Agreed. And these kind of conversations. 


[00:51:40] Gina: That kind of, that's a really interesting tie in to the verse that is used on this one. 


[00:51:47] No, the last one, uh, the, yeah, the, just as the father knows me and I know the father and I, cause that same verse goes on to say that the sheep know the voice of their shepherd, but a lot of times you see where it's questioned, like, is this really the voice? of God. Just a connection. I thought it was interesting. 


[00:52:10] It is 


[00:52:10] Ben: a good connection. I like it. I think the important question here is, let's say that all of this is true, and you don't have a choice. God chooses you, and you can't fall away if he chooses you. Should you choose to live like that's the case, or should you choose to live like it's not? Should you choose to live as if you have a choice, and should you choose to live like you want to know the Lord better, and like you can know him better, and you're constantly trying, even if trying isn't something you can do, to improve yourself. 


[00:52:41] I think both Calvinists and non Calvinists would agree, we should all be constantly striving to know the Lord better. That's why there are even debates on this to begin with. That's why people instruct. If you can't learn, there's no point, but we all recognize that learning and growing closer to the Lord, striving for a better life is important. 


[00:53:00] Gina: I mean, even Jesus set that example. He had to learn. He had to learn about the Lord. He had to memorize the scriptures. He wasn't born just knowing. 


[00:53:09] Ben: So even if it is the truth, the reality is we're called to live as if it's not the truth. And that's why I struggled the most with this. Theology, because if you're called to live as if it's not true, then why is it true? 


[00:53:22] Cody: It's a very good question that I can't answer for you. 


[00:53:25] Ben: I know I would be interested to ask an actual Calvinist on that point 


[00:53:30] Cody: the Calvinist like there's even branches of atheism that touches on this And Sam Harris is the modern popular guy you you have choice, but who determines your will 


[00:53:43] Ben: There was a very famous talk where Stephen Hawking was addressing the idea of scientific determinism, which is basically the idea of, okay, there was an event that happened at the very beginning of history and the laws of mathematics and science and cause and effect determine everything. 


[00:53:58] So it probably determines what you do and think and say, so is everything predetermined. And at the very end of his lecture, he said, yes, but we don't know what it is. So it doesn't matter. And literally everyone groaned and rolled their eyes and like, so we just wasted a bunch of time. 


[00:54:11] Cody: Yeah. 


[00:54:12] Ben: And that's it. 


[00:54:13] Every single person who believes that you're determined still claims that it's important what you do. They still go to debates. They still try to convince people, even if that's impossible. 


[00:54:22] Gina: But are they just a clinging gong? 


[00:54:24] Cody: If 


[00:54:24] Ben: they 


[00:54:25] Cody: truly 


[00:54:25] Ben: believe their 


[00:54:26] Cody: worldview, yes. 


[00:54:27] Gina: Well, there's that pride again. 


[00:54:29] Ben: And they can't help 


[00:54:29] Cody: it. 


[00:54:30] Gina: Neither can I. 


[00:54:31] Ben: All right. So, we're to the P. 


[00:54:35] Gina: We've arrived. 


[00:54:36] Ben: We have arrived. The five pillars. Islam has their five pillars, we've got ours. So, the P in TULIP stands for Perseverance of Saints. You cannot lose your salvation once you are saved. If you are a Christian and fall away from your faith, It means you were never saved to begin with and to back this up they quote 1st John chapter 2 verse 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us for if they had been us They would have continued with us But they went out that it might become plain that they were all not of us 


[00:55:11] Cody: This is another one that is not specific to Calvinism. 


[00:55:14] This touches on once saved always saved Which there's certain non Calvinistic You Theology that holds to that as well. 


[00:55:24] Ben: Well, the question is this specific verse citing an incident with a very specific group of people that John is referring to, or is he referring to the entire church? 


[00:55:32] Cody: I don't know. First, John, that, that well, 


[00:55:35] Ben: honestly, neither do I. 


[00:55:36] That's more just a question I threw out there. I hope you, I hoped you would know. 


[00:55:39] Cody: No, 


[00:55:39] Gina: Cody always asks me, well, did you look up the context? I 


[00:55:43] Cody: haven't looked at the context. I don't know who that was too. That would have been something 


[00:55:47] Ben: smart for me to look up before. 


[00:55:50] Gina: Do we need to take a minute, or do you want to skip to it? 


[00:55:52] Ben: Let's assume that they're correct and this is applying to the whole church. 


[00:55:56] Cody: The whole church. There's this great meme of A alpaca in a herd of sheeps, and it reads like day 52, they've taken me in as their own. So like, is there a goat living amongst the sheeps? And they think they're a sheep, but they're really a goat? 


[00:56:15] Or are they, can you be sheeps and then 


[00:56:19] Gina: The question is, does it have a tail or not? 


[00:56:22] Cody: Well, if it has a tail, it's a monkey. 


[00:56:25] Gina: I, I, I feel like this is all kind of just circular, like, U through P is a little bit repetitive. 


[00:56:33] Ben: A little bit, but this one, to be fair, isn't something that necessarily has to be dealt with in a predeterminist mindset. 


[00:56:40] Cause I've heard other people, other Christians say, no, once you're saved, you're always saved. Because God doesn't want you to ever not be saved. So once you are saved, why would he ever let you go? 


[00:56:49] Gina: It's a fine line to organize salvation by works. And so if you're assuming that you're saved through your works. 


[00:56:59] I could see how this could be challenging, and I also could see how it would be challenging if you are kind of like the average Christian, and that's kind of harsh, I know, but like the average Christian, meaning you go to church on Easter and Christmas, and you don't read your Bible, and you don't really know what the faith is all about. 


[00:57:20] It does apply in a lot of different areas. Areas and it can be argued in a lot of different areas, but I don't know 


[00:57:27] Ben: well Let's start with can you accidentally fall out of faith? Like, is this something where you're not intentionally letting go? You just, no, I believe. And then the Lord's like, no, you're not. 


[00:57:37] Gina: I don't think the relationship with God is that casual. 


[00:57:40] Cody: No, I think the common term, church lingo that's used is, can you backslide? Can you jump in and out of the ring of fire? 


[00:57:48] Gina: We know people who have the fruits, or have had the fruits, and then backslid, and gone through seasons of darkness, and genuinely denounced their relationship with God, only to come back. 


[00:58:04] Ben: None of us can say for certain whether anyone is truly saved or not. That doesn't mean that you don't have some kind of blessed assurance. 


[00:58:13] Cody: I don't know. To me, I don't have blessed assurance. Like, I do think we're told to pursue Our faith and fear and trembling, like why would we pursue that and fear and trembling if there's not opportunity like, why is there conversations about perseverance to the end finishing the race? 


[00:58:33] Ben: Yeah, but at the moment by moment, like, are you living in the fear of, I don't even know if I'm saved. I don't even know if I'm going to heaven. Have I done enough? Like there's that's. Kind of the question. 


[00:58:42] Cody: Okay. I get that. Yeah. No, not that 


[00:58:44] Ben: you're certain you will absolutely go to heaven no matter what you do, but in this moment you are saved. 


[00:58:49] And I think all of us know on this moment that we're saved. So the question is, because we know in this moment, does that mean that we will be forever? It's just, the question is hypothetically, is it possible to fall out of faith? 


[00:59:01] Cody: I would say yes. And that's just from my own personal experience. Janus brought up that we've gone through miscarriages and that was a very dark experience. 


[00:59:10] Moment or period of my life where I was very angry and didn't quite understand and kind of, I've never been at a point in my life where I've rejected God, like the arguments for God and intelligent design are too strong for me to reject intelligent design, but believing that God loved me in that moment was very difficult. 


[00:59:36] Gina: There's a song I'm going to quote to kind of explain. So there's a band called My Epic and they wrote a song about miscarriage. And it really summarizes the darkness that we both felt. And one of the lines says, No good God would cause a thing so ugly. It leaves you cursing while you're trying to pray. 


[00:59:53] Like I thought that being angry in the moment and just like devastated. Meant that I had to choose to like, love God and live in this perfect stereotypical Christian life, or I had to choose to walk away from my faith. And there was a moment, like a season where I was like, I'm done. And the song came out in that season and I was like, Oh, I can curse and pray at the same time and somehow it'll come back together. 


[01:00:23] And that gave me the hope that I needed to kind of rekindle and I'm healthier and more balanced and more respectful of my faith now than I was back then, because it helped me to see like the. lamentation side of faith. But I definitely, in my mind, renounced my relationship with God in that season. But I have no doubt of my salvation now. 


[01:00:47] But I didn't have any doubt of my salvation when I got baptized either. And that was before we had all that trouble. 


[01:00:52] Ben: Yeah. Well, I have no doubt that you were saved at that time and you're saved now. We all grow closer to the Lord through our struggles, and I've had my own struggles, though not nearly to the extent that you guys have had. 


[01:01:02] But yeah, I do think it is possible for you to fall away. I mean, if you can choose him, like, if the idea is that there were angels in heaven who knew God face to face and could choose to not be there anymore, to reject him, then why would it be that we on earth, no matter what we do, can't possibly choose to do the same once we've chosen God? 


[01:01:23] Like, once you've chosen him, he's not going to let us choose anything else. Now, that doesn't mean that I'm right. That's just a thought process, and I could be wrong, and I'm open to having my mind changed on that. But I don't know. How do you guys think about it? 


[01:01:34] Gina: He's got something. 


[01:01:37] Cody: For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness, than after knowing it, to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. 


[01:01:48] And that can contextually be in a lot of different realms, but just the gospel message and the fact that Paul had to go on multiple missionary journeys and the fact that he was constantly writing to his brothers and sisters for perseverance and to, you know, further sanctify themselves to the image of Christ doesn't necessarily put a Pin in this train of thought, but also makes it illogical if you've baptized them and if the Apostle Paul knows that people are saved, why is he continuing to write to them about bettering themselves? 


[01:02:27] If they are saved in that moment, why continue? Like, it would be, okay, did my job there. I'm done. Let's move on. 


[01:02:36] Ben: And there's, oh, sorry, first, what was the chapter and verse that you wrote? Oh, 


[01:02:40] Cody: that was 2 Peter 2, 


[01:02:42] Ben: 21. And I wish I could remember this verse, but there's another one that's on the same vein. 


[01:02:46] Hebrews 6, 


[01:02:46] Cody: 4 through 6. For it is impossible in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift. And have shared in the Holy Spirit and have tasted the goodness of the Word of God and the powers of the age to come and then have fallen away to restore them again to repentance since they are crucifying once again, the son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. 


[01:03:16] Ben: Yeah, so I would say there's plenty of biblical evidence to say that you can fall away. Now, we don't wanna label any individual person as having done that. Only God knows the heart. Only God knows your status of salvation. So, this isn't an accusation that we want to throw around, it's just enough to know that for each individual person, we do need to approach this with fear and trembling, and know, and be humbled by the fact, that we can choose not to be with Christ. 


[01:03:40] Gina: The end of the New Testament, like Revelation especially, doesn't just hint at, it promises judgment and wrath. And if you fall into this, I would say trap, of believing that you're chosen and you don't have a choice. then judgment is irrelevant for everybody. And I have a really hard time with that. I also want to point out, it's kind of backpedaling, but like of the saints, there's that pride thing again, like I 


[01:04:15] Cody: get my own planet. 


[01:04:16] Right. 


[01:04:17] Gina: For the 


[01:04:19] Cody: average, 


[01:04:19] Gina: for the average Christian that like, I'm thinking about myself five years ago, If I had read this outline and somebody was like, this is the truth. Like, the saints is a very Catholic thing to say, and so I think about like, okay, these holy special people that did these wonderful things and usually died horrifically to defend their faith, and like, if we're pre selected and we can't lose our salvation and we don't have a choice and we cannot refuse, how at all does that make somebody a saint? 


[01:04:54] Like, 


[01:04:55] Cody: well, you gotta perform three 


[01:04:56] Ben: miracles first. 


[01:04:58] Gina: K. 


[01:05:00] Ben: Very strict application policy. And they have to be verified. 


[01:05:04] Gina: But do I get my form letter signed in triplicate assuring me of my salvation? 


[01:05:08] Cody: Well, that's your assurance. That's your perseverance right there. Three miracles. 


[01:05:12] Gina: Yeah, but what if I'm a cessationist? 


[01:05:14] Ben: Which most 


[01:05:15] Cody: Catholics 


[01:05:15] Ben: are. What? No, I didn't think Catholics were cessationists. Calvinists. Oh, Calvinists. Okay. Most Calvinists are cessationists. Yeah, I was going to say, it would be tough to be a saint and be a cessationist. So what three miracles did you do? Oh, I didn't do any of them. 


[01:05:34] Gina: Those don't exist. 


[01:05:35] Ben: What are you talking about? 


[01:05:37] Gina: I 


[01:05:39] Ben: was predetermined to be here. Now give me my sainthood. 


[01:05:42] Gina: Does the self identification as elect, saint, saved, whatever, predetermined, predestined, does that fall into the kind of lacking boundaries culture that we live in today where it's like, I identify as, or. You know, that kind of entitled. 


[01:06:00] Cody: You identify as a saint is what you're saying. 


[01:06:03] Gina: Yeah, like, or I identify as a male or I identify as a helicopter or whatever, like, however you want to put it. Like. Does this fall into kind of the trap that I see in our culture today of like not having accountability and not having boundaries to identify either behaviors or like culture related things? 


[01:06:25] Cody: I mean, I would say yes, just because the uptick in reformed theology 10 years, it's definitely catered to the entitled. 


[01:06:44] Gina: It's interesting because if you look at the conversations that we've had historically on the podcast, thinking about the episode that we recorded on God's Word being inspired, liberal Christianity then was more charismatic, but I feel like we're seeing a shift in liberal Christianity in the opposite direction. 


[01:07:06] Cody: Liberal Christianity is different than liberal politics. 


[01:07:10] Gina: But I'm attributing the two together because I'm seeing explosive growth of Calvinism in our church. Like our personal church. And it's interesting to me because they're announcing a million people saved, but then a majority of their pastors are Calvinist. 


[01:07:29] Ben: So there is a degree of rigidity and rules to Calvinism. Either you are saved or you're not. And if you fall away, you were never saved to begin with. So there is something that is in something that is not, it is on, it is off. It is hot or it is cold. 


[01:07:43] Gina: But are they lying? If they pat themselves on the back for saying we've saved a million people. 


[01:07:49] Ben: Well, so there can be lying no matter what, even if they were Calvinist or not. Like, I think the idea that there are a lot of people who are buying into Calvinism, I think is in many ways actually a response, a backlash to the more liberal movements of the church, because it is that structure. It is that rigidity. 


[01:08:05] It is. Okay, we are pulling from the Bible. The Bible says X, Y, and Z. Therefore, this is the way it has to be. This is the way that it is. And these are the people who are saved. These are the people who are not, and that's it. These are the instructions, tulip. This is the foundation of our lives. These are the things that we believe. 


[01:08:23] This is the way we will follow. You either are this or you aren't this. And in some ways that is true, not. It's not the doctrine itself, though it could be true, I don't know. It's the idea that there are things in this world you either are or you aren't. You are either a follower of Christ or you aren't. 


[01:08:39] And you can take some things that Christ said and think, this is nice, but if you're only following some of the things that he said and you think some of it's nice, but then you say, well, but the tithe thing, I don't feel, and he talks about me giving my life I don't want to give my whole life, but there's some things that he says are good and some things he says that are evil that I buy into. 


[01:09:00] And this love thing I really like. Oh, everyone loves the love thing. And then also the judgment. I could do without the judgment. You can't pick and choose. And yeah, we do have disagreements about individual doctrines and stuff. But the truth is that you either are a Christian or you aren't. There is a point for both. 


[01:09:18] Most Christians I've known, I haven't met a Christian where this isn't the case, where there was a moment they weren't saved, and then there was a moment they were. C. S. Lewis talks about how he was literally on a motorcycle ride. He says, I don't know the exact point that it happened, but I started that ride being an atheist, and I ended it being a Christian. 


[01:09:36] There is a point where we're not saved, and then a point where we are. We flip the switch, on or off, hot or cold. And yes, that is something that Calvinism holds to. I think that it holds to it in the wrong way, in a way I disagree with, because it's saying you have no choice in this. But it's still holding to that truth, that eternal truth that a lot of people are turning away from, where there is right and there is wrong. 


[01:09:58] And maybe there is some degree of gray in some of these areas. There is good and there is evil, and there's some gray. But more often than not, I think we can see when there is evil and there is good. And the church, and a lot of the people outside of the church, have rejected that. See, that's my spiel. I don't know how you guys feel about it. 


[01:10:13] No, 


[01:10:13] Gina: I appreciate that. 


[01:10:15] Cody: At the end of the day, I think we all agree, you can be a Calvinist and be saved, you can be a non Calvinist and be saved, as long as you're believing and following the Bible and the Gospel message. 


[01:10:28] Ben: Absolutely. And I don't want this particular episode to be taken by people who are Calvinists and think that we're insulting you or bashing you. 


[01:10:37] The truth is that you could all be right. We do have our disagreements, and we quote the scriptures that we believe refute it. In the end, you could absolutely be right. But the question is, assuming you are right, is your interpretation the way that you live? Do you live as if nothing you do matters? That you are just chosen, and that's it? 


[01:10:53] Do you live as if your effort matters? 


[01:10:55] Gina: Is your stance on Calvinism aggressive in defending Calvin or aggressive in defending Christ? That would be my point. 


[01:11:05] Ben: Agreed. In the end, we are all brothers and sisters in Christ, and our focus should not be on men. There are those who follow Paul, those who follow Apollos, those who follow Cephas, We follow Christ. 


[01:11:16] That's our job. 


[01:11:17] Cody: These are good discussions and edifying and fun. Like, I like these conversations to an extent when they can be held in peace and understanding that not everybody has to agree on certain doctrines. There is rib and there is spine, and there is some variance in the rib issues. That, that's fine. 


[01:11:38] that is allowed that you should be able to affirm, people can still be saved holding to those values. But what we see in scripture and what the church at Ephesus was ridiculed about from Jesus and Revelation is that they were too focused on their ins and outs and they forgot their first love. We can't forget our first love of Jesus. 


[01:12:03] Absolutely. And that should, whether you're a Calvinist, whether you're a non Calvinist, any form of Christianity should be able to rally around the fact that we are all brothers and sisters in Christ, and the main goal should be helping each other and bringing more to God's kingdom. 


[01:12:21] Gina: Glory to God. Thank you so much for taking the time to listen to our podcast today. 


[01:12:27] If you liked what you heard, please feel free to subscribe and share and leave a positive review. And if you would like to connect with us on social media, you can do so on Instagram and Facebook at the Logic of God. You can also send us an email at Maine dot the Logic of god@gmail.com. Thanks again for listening. 


[01:12:47] We hope you have a great day.

Are Jehovah's Witnesses Christian?

[00:00:00] Cody: Hi, thank you for tuning in to the Logic of God podcast. I'm Cody. 


[00:00:13] Gina: I'm Gina. 


[00:00:13] Cody: And I'm Ben. If you're returning, thank you for coming back and if you are a new guest, welcome. So okay, we've 


[00:00:32] Gina: talked about Mormonism, I think we've beat it into the ground. It's not Christianity. 


[00:00:36] Ben: Agreed. 


[00:00:37] Gina: So what about Jehovah's Witnesses? 


[00:00:39] Ben: Yeah, you're right. We've kind of drilled Mormonism into the ground. So Jehovah's Witnesses, what do they believe? Kind of 


[00:00:45] Gina: Should we start with stereotypes? Yeah, let's, let's go with 


[00:00:47] Ben: stereotypes. 


[00:00:48] When you, when you hear about a Jehovah's Witness, What do you think of? 


[00:00:52] Gina: No windows and no holidays. No celebrations. 


[00:00:55] Ben: That's actually pretty good. 


[00:00:56] Gina: Yeah. 


[00:00:57] Ben: That's a pretty good explanation. No fun. No fun. So yeah, there, there are only two things that Jehovah's Witnesses are allowed to celebrate as far as I know. 


[00:01:06] I looked on their websites. I looked all around to try to find if there were any other exceptions. The only two that I'm aware of. Uh, there's the celebration of Christ's death memorial. That's the full title. That's not Easter. It's different from Easter. They think Easter is pagan. So yes. So 


[00:01:23] Cody: does Cody. No. 


[00:01:26] Ben: No. 


[00:01:27] Gina: Ishtar. We're not going to do anything to do with Ishtar. 


[00:01:31] Cody: No. It's the bunnies and the frickin 


[00:01:33] Gina: God made bunnies, Cody. 


[00:01:35] Cody: Yes he did. And 


[00:01:36] Gina: they're born at that time. And they make 


[00:01:37] Cody: eggs. Bunnies lay eggs. Yes. Really? We don't call them eggs. Really? We call 


[00:01:43] Ben: them turds. Little pallets. Yeah, they look like little eggs if you squint hard and you don't know what an egg looks like. 


[00:01:51] Gina: Okay. Well, if you tell me it's an egg, I have to believe it because you said so. 


[00:01:55] Ben: Absolutely. But yeah, they don't, they don't celebrate birthdays. They don't celebrate Christmas. They don't celebrate the 4th of July. They don't celebrate Memorial Day. They don't even 


[00:02:04] Gina: sing the national anthem, right? 


[00:02:06] Ben: Correct. 


[00:02:06] They can't even go into the military. 


[00:02:08] Gina: This says, Jehovah's Witnesses are conscientiously opposed to war and to their participation in such in any form whatsoever. For this reason they inform officials of the government that they conscientiously object to serving in the military or in any civilian capacity which fosters or supports the military. 


[00:02:28] Ben: And they can't say or stand for the Pledge of Allegiance, and they can't stand for the National Anthem like you talked about. So, yeah, it's no celebration, no elevation of anything that isn't God of any kind. That's it. 


[00:02:40] Gina: They can't get blood transfusion. I don't think they can drink. 


[00:02:44] Ben: There's a lot of things. 


[00:02:45] They're not allowed to do They're not allowed to have fun They're not allowed to think and honestly that is kind of the image that you get when you think Jehovah's Witness It's just these people who kind of wander around and they got the nice white shirts They knock on your door kind of like Mormons do except somehow they don't seem quite as happy 


[00:03:03] Gina: Yeah, yeah. 


[00:03:04] I mean, just knowing my daughter's grandmother, she's so bland, like she's loving and she's kind. She's a good grandma, but she's just kind of bland. 


[00:03:15] Ben: And I think there are some cultural reasons for that that have to pertain to their actual beliefs, but we'll get to that in a second. So, number one, first thing coming out of the gate, do they believe in God? 


[00:03:26] Do they believe God exists? Yes, they do believe that God exists. That you're not quite as out there as Mormons are in terms of who God is. I believe they still do adhere to God being eternal. That God is from everlasting to everlasting. And they do use the Bible specifically as their main resource. So yeah, that's, that's what they believe. 


[00:03:45] However, they don't believe in the Trinity. And they don't believe that Jesus is God, rather they believe that Jesus is the Archangel Michael. And the Holy Spirit is essentially just God's will on the earth. So not a separate entity necessarily, just God's will being exerted over the earth. 


[00:04:00] Gina: We, um, had a water system installed in our house last year. 


[00:04:04] And the salesperson was a Jehovah's Witness. And we didn't know that at the time, like in the moment when he got here and was talking to us, but then like he was here for hours. So I was like, are you hungry? Like can I make you something to eat? And he was like, well, I'm a vegan and I really just want celery juice right now. 


[00:04:25] Cause he noticed that we had a juicer on the counter. And so I made him a big cup of celery juice and. He was like, wow, like, thank you. You're so Christ like. And I was like, oh, thank you. And then he went on and explained that he was a Jehovah's Witness. And I was like, why are you saying I'm Christ like if you're a Jehovah's Witness? 


[00:04:45] And it was kind of odd, still never figured it out. But we had some pretty good conversations with him, just trying to understand what was, was You know his driving force for being a Jehovah's Witness. He was a young guy, you know young Newly married had a baby And he explained that like his really only hold up in christianity Was not comprehending the trinity 


[00:05:09] Ben: and I can understand that there are a lot of people who struggle with it So already just putting a stop same question as before Is this something that would exclude them from being Christian? 


[00:05:18] Gina: Yes. Yeah. Devil's advocate. One, two, three, go. 


[00:05:22] Ben: Yeah. So give us, give us an Iron Man here. What, what would be a solid response to that? I honestly find this one tougher than Mormonism. I agree. Um, I agree. It, for my personal opinion, it is harder to determine whether this is a denomination than Mormonism just because Mormonism has so much bananas stuff on the outside. 


[00:05:41] And so a lot of that insanity is reflected internally. Now, to be fair, there is some crazy stuff from Jehovah's Witnesses as well, which we will get to. But, again, I don't want to focus on that. I want to set that aside and look at the core ideas. 


[00:05:53] Cody: So, the non divinity of Christ is a hard one, um, kind of a hard stop, because if, I don't get how an angel dying for your sins would, would be the same, and kind of goes against the Bible, and like, I don't know where exactly they pick up it being Michael. 


[00:06:12] Yeah, 


[00:06:12] Ben: I'm not entirely certain on that either. And I think there's another detail here that needs to be talked about before we really assess whether or not this causes them to not be Christian, or the faith itself to not be Christian. Again, I keep saying this, but I do want to emphasize this. We're not saying that there aren't individual Jehovah's Witnesses. 


[00:06:33] who aren't saved, or that there is no hope for Jehovah's Witnesses, or that they're horrible people, or anything like that. We're saying the faith itself can't be considered to be Christian. Not that none of them are saved. It's that the faith itself can't save. 


[00:06:45] Gina: Yeah, nothing that we're saying is direct condemnation or judgment. 


[00:06:48] This is truly just assessing from a logical and analytical perspective based on the five core assumptions of Christianity. 


[00:06:55] Ben: Very eloquently put. So another thing that we need to look at That's adjacent to Christ's divinity, is why he even died to begin with. So, in Christianity, we say that he died to forgive sins. 


[00:07:06] And, you know, when we die, we're going to be judged and we go to heaven. And, you know, it's by grace we've been saved through faith and not through the works. It's a gift of God. For Jehovah's Witnesses, when a person dies, they cease to exist. That's it. You don't have any spirit. There's no soul. There's no eternal aspect of a human being. 


[00:07:23] You're just gone when you die. There are 144, 000 Believers who will be resurrected at the end and they will reign with God, but that's it. 


[00:07:34] Cody: Yeah, so the 144, 000 is the Anointed by Jehovah's Spirit, and they alone are in the New Covenant, only the 144, 000 have a heavenly hope. Other Jehovah's Witnesses have an earthly hope. 


[00:07:51] They expect to live forever on a Paradise Earth, but they are not part of the New Covenant. 


[00:07:57] Ben: And, uh, the reason that they give is Revelation 7, 4. And I heard the number of those who were sealed, 144, 000, sealed out of every tribe of Israel. So, tying those two things together, and thanks for looking that up, Cody, where Jesus did die, and it was for our sins, but it's not for anything spiritual, necessarily. 


[00:08:18] It's all completely on earth, except for the 144, 000 who then go up to heaven, and they're spiritual, in a sense, but not. Like, tying all that together, is this, at this point, enough to say that they are not Christian? 


[00:08:31] Cody: Absolutely, because it makes a fool out of every other scripture outside of Revelation that mentions the 144, 000. 


[00:08:39] You know, when John 3, 16 doesn't give, you know, up to this limit, for God so loved the world that he gave his one and only son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish up to 144, 000. 


[00:08:51] Gina: Well, and I know that But like, for the people that I know that are Jehovah's Witness, it's very works based. So in order to be in the 144, 000, you have to have done a certain number of works to qualify to be in one of the, like, as one of the most faithful members of the church. 


[00:09:08] That's works based. It's not faith based and grace 


[00:09:12] Ben: 8, 500 positions left. Of the 144, 000, so. 


[00:09:19] Gina: But they have a clock counting down to the end of the world. 


[00:09:22] Ben: So, that's another thing. Are we going there? I'm sorry. We don't have to go there yet. I would still like to keep to the core doctrines so far. Do you have, 


[00:09:33] Cody: I don't remember, 


[00:09:35] Ben: do you mention the Watchtower at all? 


[00:09:37] No, I haven't, I didn't really write down Watchtower and I really should have gone into that. So yeah, Watchtower is essentially the central figurehead of this and it's not an individual person. 


[00:09:48] Cody: Not anymore. 


[00:09:49] Ben: Not anymore, correct. It's more of a collection of individuals like a council and it's through them that they disseminate. 


[00:09:56] Uh, there's a, like a magazine, the Watchtower magazine that they send out, and there's a bunch of different information pieces and aids that they send out to different people to try to help them understand Jehovah's Witnesses better. The thing is, is they are very strict about what Jehovah's Witnesses can take in. 


[00:10:12] They believe, again, that the Bible was corrupted. But, their version of the Bible is not quite like Joseph Smith's. I believe it's more that they just have things cut out, or things translated differently. And, the guy who made this translation of the Bible, I wish I could remember the guy's name. I really should have written it down. 


[00:10:31] Charles Russell. Charles Russell. Good old Charlie. But essentially, he claimed that, All other translations were wrong and his was right, and then he was questioned on his knowledge of Biblical Greek, like the foundational thing, like literally the alphabet, and he's like, I, I don't know, and so, yeah, he was kind of humiliated there, but this is something that not a lot of Jehovah's Witnesses know about because it's something that Watchtower doesn't specifically teach them. 


[00:10:56] So yeah, they also believe that the Bible has been corrupted, and we can also just stop there. So if you believe that the Bible has been corrupted to the point where you need a completely separate translation, and it's one that, you know, Stands in direct opposition to christianity generally because it stands against, you know, christ divinity Like that's literally why they make the argument against christ divinity They have their own version of the bible that says that's not the case 


[00:11:19] Gina: Well, it challenges christ divinity, but it also challenges our fifth core assumption of the bible being Inspired and all that so like trustworthy and how god speaks to us 


[00:11:29] Ben: if it is the standard and to to make a kind of devil's advocate to They do still claim that the Bible is a resource and that it is the standard. 


[00:11:41] They just believe that our version of it is wrong, just like we believe their version of it is wrong. So can they be correct in that? 


[00:11:49] Cody: How did they get the correct one? Where are their manuscripts backing it up thousands of years? So yeah, that could 


[00:11:56] Gina: be argued that we don't, we've never personally seen physical copies of the Dead Sea Scrolls. 


[00:12:02] We've seen pictures, but those can be modified. 


[00:12:06] Ben: But then you're getting into an arena where, okay, so Mr. Russell, how exactly did he translate the Bible? Did he have access to a separate set of documents that we didn't have? No, he didn't. He just claimed that no one knew biblical Greek and read it correctly. 


[00:12:24] Cody: He also didn't get hieroglyphic tablets either. So 


[00:12:28] Ben: yeah, this is a lot. 


[00:12:29] Gina: He didn't have the hat. 


[00:12:30] Ben: Yeah. He didn't have the magic hat. 


[00:12:32] Cody: He's got a watchtower somewhere though. 


[00:12:34] Ben: Mm hmm. Well, yeah, this is one of the reasons why I agree with you, Cody, that this is a lot more grounded and as a result is a bit more difficult. 


[00:12:41] There's a lot more nuance in the question of whether or not they are Christian. When you're looking just at their core doctrines, when you look at some of the external stuff, then obviously it gets a little more apparent, but just trying to iron man the position and look at their core beliefs. Is it enough to say that Jesus isn't divine? 


[00:12:58] To say that you're no longer Christian? I would argue yes. 


[00:13:01] Cody: Yeah, I would agree. 


[00:13:02] Ben: And just saying that the Bible itself, all Bibles, up until the point where Russell did his translation, are corrupted completely. And as a result, all of our theology is wrong. 


[00:13:14] Cody: If all of them, I mean, weird thought, but they're a logical process. 


[00:13:19] If all of them were corrupted up until that point, how is there only 8, 000 some spots left? Shouldn't there be 144, 000 still? 


[00:13:27] Ben: Correct. There should have been 144, 000 at the time. Right. That Russell did his, uh, interpretation of the Bible, but that's not the case. So presumably the corruption happened sometime after Pentecost because they do claim, I believe, I did see it on one of their websites, that the 144, 000 extends from the time of Pentecost to now. 


[00:13:46] So 


[00:13:47] Gina: For, for reference, there's like 8. 7 million Jehovah's Witnesses in the world. They're 


[00:13:54] Cody: about 


[00:13:54] Ben: half 


[00:13:55] Cody: of, 


[00:13:55] Gina: yeah, but only 144, 000 of them will be elevated to heaven. 


[00:14:01] Ben: And like, yeah, and like David, sorry, Cody says 


[00:14:03] Gina: presently that's not over the course of history. 


[00:14:07] Ben: And like Cody said, they will be returned to life. 


[00:14:11] The problem is, is that they don't believe in a hell. They believe that there's just nothingness. Either you become resurrected, and then you just live as a person. See, 


[00:14:20] Cody: and I don't think that necessarily negates the gospel, because there's a lot of annihilationist Christians who don't believe in a literal hell. 


[00:14:31] They believe that everybody just goes poof at the end. And I can see scriptural evidence of why people get there. 


[00:14:38] Ben: In a sense, but you don't really get the weeping and gnashing of teeth. 


[00:14:43] Cody: It depends on how, you know, the, the argument that's made for that is eternal life for everybody then? Because if you're eternally 


[00:14:54] Ben: It's an eternal death. 


[00:14:55] That's the, the argument from the Christian perspective. But I do agree. 


[00:14:58] Cody: Yeah. 


[00:14:58] Ben: So Yeah, just saying that you don't believe that hell exists, but rather that people are just going to be poofed out of existence. I don't believe that that excludes you from being Christian. And also just saying that you don't believe that there's an eternal spirit. 


[00:15:13] That, I mean, I find it really hard to believe that, Is in scripture because it's not because we are 


[00:15:20] Cody: I don't know how they get there. Yeah, especially with you know Paul talking about how the flesh can't inherit the kingdom of God 


[00:15:28] Ben: but there were even at the time of Christ there were the chief priests and there were the Sadducees didn't believe that there was a Resurrection essentially they believed that there was no spirit and they didn't believe in angels or anything And I find that hard to believe considering they're literally angels in the Bible, but whatever So, even at that time, they were still considered to be Jews, and they were considered to be religious leaders. 


[00:15:48] They were just a different sect within the realm of Judaism. So, for most of these things, I would say that they're not individually enough to say that they're not Christian. However, the idea that Christ isn't Christ, that he's not actually God, I would say that that's enough. No, I agree. How about you, Gina? 


[00:16:06] Gina: The things I want to say probably don't sound very loving, but I, I feel that it is pretty misleading the way that they try to recruit new members. They use innocuous terms like Bible study or, um, you know, I want to tell you the truth and it can be extremely misleading and It seems very tactical. I don't like it. 


[00:16:38] I didn't like it when they tried to recruit me when I was a teenager. Like a lot of red flags went up for me. So I'm very sensitive to spiritual stuff because of my upbringing and, um, just the secretive nature and like the, we're going to loop you in, but we're not going to tell you everything until you make the commitment kind of thing really got to me. 


[00:16:59] So, like, no, to answer your question, but, I don't know. My opinion is, is based less on true knowledge of the religion and more on personal experience. Just felt very 


[00:17:13] Ben: Grooming. 


[00:17:14] Gina: Grooming, yeah, that's a good word. Made me very uncomfortable 


[00:17:18] Ben: and again when you look at a lot of their websites and a lot of their material They are trying very hard to position themselves to seem as close to full Christianity as possible Now there is something that you mentioned earlier Gina and I think this is a pretty good example of something that again It's a doctrine. 


[00:17:35] That's not right But doesn't threaten salvation. And it's the one where they can't undergo any medical procedure that requires a blood transfusion, since they consider that to be a form of consuming blood. That's weird, but I wouldn't say that that excludes you from being a Christian. 


[00:17:51] Cody: No, I mean I can see where that, you know, the consumption of blood is condemned in the Bible. 


[00:17:58] So if you truly believe that's a form of consuming blood, I can see how you get there, but I 


[00:18:05] Gina: see that as very similar to like the people who It, like, there's a Christian sect that handles snakes, and if you get bit, then you're not supposed to have medical intervention. It sort of reminds me of that type of thing. 


[00:18:17] I don't think it prevents you from being a Christian, but it's definitely odd. 


[00:18:22] Ben: The doctrine itself is not true. However, if you believed it and you were a full Christian, and I could pick, I imagine there are some Christians who believe something kind of like this. Then yeah, I would say you're still a Christian, but I, that's just not something that I find to have a whole lot of biblical backing to it, though there is a biblical defense for the position. 


[00:18:42] Yeah, 


[00:18:43] Cody: but it's, yeah, 


[00:18:45] Ben: yeah. So I mentioned at the offset that there are some external factors aside from the core principles that make it a bit clear that this is kind of a cult. One of the big things that Jehovah's Witnesses are known for is predicting the end of the world. Yeah. Yeah. 


[00:18:58] Cody: How many times now? 


[00:19:00] Ben: Oh, quite a few. Um, so the first time that they said the world was going to end was in 1878. Uh, then they predicted it again in 1881, then again in 1914, then again in 1918, then again in 1925, and then again in 1975. But yes, as far as 1975 goes, they did claim that that was going to be the start of the millennial reign and that Armageddon was going to happen, but Yeah, as far as them claiming that this is, we are currently in the millennial reign, I don't know that that's the case. 


[00:19:32] I couldn't find anything solid that said that. It's confusing because their stance on it has changed multiple times. In the aftermath of the 1975 prediction, that the world would end. There was a lot of blame shifting and a lot of, well, it didn't happen because of you guys. And well, we were just misinterpreting things and, you know, a thousand years like a day, that kind of thing. 


[00:19:53] Watchtower tends to kind of cover all this stuff up and they give different reasons for why each individual prophecy happened. And when people fall away, they said, well, you just didn't believe to begin with. This was a test of your faith and you failed the test and now you just don't believe 


[00:20:08] Cody: the biggest thing for me that screams caught with good old JW is the grooming, like you mentioned, Gina, that is very easy to see, especially if you talk to any missionaries. 


[00:20:23] I think they still call them missionaries that door knock the door knockers. 


[00:20:28] Gina: We have a neighbor that writes us hand beautifully handwritten letters. Like twice a year. 


[00:20:34] Cody: Although I wish you saw the missionaries more because I always like to play the game Is it a JW or a Mormon? But the the conditioning and the 


[00:20:46] Gina: the lack of transparency 


[00:20:47] Cody: the lack of transparency and like okay all of these predictions happens, you know the all these dates they frown and shun on you if you go looking back and past watchtower postings You Because a lot of them contradict each other. 


[00:21:05] And if you bring that up, you will be shunned. And you know, basically what Ben said already, you just don't have enough faith. It is kind of the general explanation and if you have questions in, in the faith, those are highly frowned upon and you will be shunned. And like there are very, if you have questions or if you leave the faith or if you know anybody outside the faith, you're cut off. 


[00:21:33] Gina: I find it very concerning that there's no windows. In the, like, meeting buildings that they have, I just, like, there's a saying I love to tell my students, which is, like, when you put things into the light, it becomes for God, but when you keep things in the dark, then it's the devil's play thing. And that's sort of the feeling that I get about having a building that's supposed to be for worship, but you're not allowing light inside and you're not allowing anything to come out either. 


[00:22:04] It's very unsettling for me. 


[00:22:07] Cody: Yeah, I never got the no one does thing. 


[00:22:09] Gina: I don't really understand it. I've never looked into it or asked, but. 


[00:22:13] Ben: From everything that we've looked at that's kind of outside of the core assumptions of their faith, the way that they go about pursuing it, the way they go about trying to bring people in, and then the way they express it through the claim that, you know, the world's going to end and them being wrong multiple times, just the idea that they're led by false prophets is enough. 


[00:22:33] In my estimation, and I think that's one of my biggest takeaways here is that you can have doctrines that may be wrong, but still don't threaten salvation necessarily. However, your leadership is 100 percent corrupt, and they are constantly lying to you, and they are claiming to be prophets, and they are claiming to hear from God, and they clearly are not. 


[00:22:55] That is the dangerous thing. That is the thing that sets them apart as a cult. 


[00:22:58] Gina: It's very manipulative. 


[00:23:00] Ben: Yeah, 


[00:23:00] Cody: with both, and that's a common theme with Mormon and Jehovah's Witness, but like I'm not even against the idea of the potential of a prophet, like even if it, even like, you know, if Ezekiel or Jeremiah, any of those came and you know, somebody had the authority like that, I'm not even opposed to that, but these guys do not let you question them or test them. 


[00:23:26] Mhm. Like the prophets of the Bible were tested and when they get something wrong, it's, you know, Oh, by, by the way, I was, I miscalculated this data. God was just testing you. 


[00:23:39] Gina: I know that this. Like, we're focusing on these two, but I'd like to kind of loop in New Age Spiritualism here at the end. Yeah, sure. 


[00:23:47] Cause it's important. Um, because a lot of what we've seen in Mormon and Jehovah's Witness religion is stuff that's kind of been passed around in New Age Spiritualism among other religious beliefs too. It's kind of a mishmash, but you know, what would be your response to somebody who says, I'm a prophet. 


[00:24:08] Or, I'm a person that can receive messages from the dead, or a biblical person, um, like a character from the Bible. Because you don't really hear that in these contexts, but in New Age Spiritualism, that's something that's very prevalent. So what would be your response to that type of prophecy as somebody that believes or doesn't believe? 


[00:24:35] Cody: Get behind me, Satan! That's a reasonable response. Flee from me, demon. 


[00:24:40] Gina: Is it demonic? 


[00:24:43] Cody: Again, I don't think the Bible, and I don't know if I said it on this one or a past one, I don't think the Bible tells us to do things that are unreasonable. So the fortune telling child that Paul cast, that, you know, got frustrated with and cast the demon out, or, you know, the Calling Samuel up that Saul had in the Old Testament. 


[00:25:04] I don't think that stuff is untrue and 


[00:25:08] Gina: impossible 


[00:25:09] Cody: for us because it is also told, we're also told not to mess with those things. So I don't think we're told not to mess with something that's not real. That's not logical and we don't serve a God. That's illogical. 


[00:25:23] Gina: Hence the name of the podcast. 


[00:25:25] Cody: So Do I think that stuff can happen? 


[00:25:28] Do I think there's a potential? Yes. Do I think, you know, people actively hear from demons? No, I think it's more, you know, voices inside their head or them trying to promote themselves. 


[00:25:40] Gina: So in my personal experience, I can say that I've never witnessed a miraculous healing in a church and I've never heard somebody speak in tongues. 


[00:25:50] But I have been raised in an environment where it was very commonplace to have seances and to have things spoken that were true. Like, weirdly, somehow people knew things. So, I like that you bring that up, but I also don't necessarily agree with you. Because I believe that we do have a certain amount of access to darkness if we chose that path. 


[00:26:17] And I do think that, like, Satan is not all knowing, but I do think that he knows our weaknesses. And I think that, um, This type of prophecy is an exploitation of that weakness, if that makes sense. 


[00:26:31] Ben: So one, while I do have my disagreements with the Catholic Church, one of the things that they are actually very, very good about is documentation for possessions and exorcisms. 


[00:26:42] And Like their documentation on this is very extensive. They have the names of a lot of demons, and they have recorded instances of demonic possession. They have people who are not Catholic and who are not Christian, who they will hire on, uh, that are psychologists. They're highly 


[00:26:58] Cody: educated. 


[00:26:58] Ben: Yes, highly educated people who, again, are not affiliated Is this to 


[00:27:02] Gina: determine mental illness versus Yes. 


[00:27:04] Okay. 


[00:27:04] Ben: Because if you have someone who doesn't even believe in this stuff to begin with, come in and say, Oh dude, that, that dude's possessed. Then clearly that dude's possessed. And I saw an interview with one of these guys who was an atheist before he went into working with the Catholic church. And he explained to the Catholic church that he didn't believe in possession to begin with. 


[00:27:22] And that's why the Catholic church said, yes, that's why you're perfect because you don't believe. And so, yeah, there are these guys who will be brought in and they'll do mental assessments. And there are times where people aren't possessed at all. They're just kind of crazy. They need lithium, they need treatment, and then they'll be fine. 


[00:27:37] And then there are other times where there are people who have been genuinely possessed. And they genuinely need the demon excised from their body. And there are other times they, they make the distinction between demonic possession and demonic oppression, where there are people who may tend towards a lot of this new age spirituality and will actively seek information from spirits. 


[00:27:59] And they think that they're benign, but it turns out they're not benign at all. They're demons. And so they'll receive power. They'll receive knowledge. They'll abilities from these demons. And then At first it seems kind of amicable, and it seems kind of fun, kind of nice, and they get information, but then it starts to get scary, and then they can't turn anything off, and they feel like there's something watching them at all times, and it gets worse and worse and worse. 


[00:28:23] And that's not every instance. There have been instances that seem like there's just someone who just randomly gets something, and it turns out that there was some kind of demonic oppression, at least according to the Catholic Church, and I believe them on this. But the point is, is that there is spiritual stuff. 


[00:28:37] And you're right, Cody. There's a reason we're told not to mess with this stuff. We're told not to participate in witchcraft. We're told not to participate in sorcery. And in the biblical context, that essentially says you're not supposed to try to commune with spirits to get power, and you're not supposed to consume drugs to alter your state of consciousness. 


[00:28:53] And we can go into reasons for why the Bible might claim that, but the end, the ultimately, the end result is the same. We're told not to do these things. And a lot of New Age spirituality leans heavily into that. They lean heavily into taking things like psilocybin to alter their state of consciousness to try to access the spiritual world. 


[00:29:09] They try to take power from spirits, and they have spirit guides that help them, and all sorts of crazy stuff. That is all possible, that's all doable, and it's all evil. And if you participate in that, If you try to speak to the dead, if you try to gain access to information about the world around you through a method other than God, and if you think you have the power to do all of this, that also is something that sets you apart from Christianity. 


[00:29:35] It doesn't matter if you believe that the good exists, that there are good spirits and bad spirits, or that Jesus exists and he's part of the light. There is a lot of that in New Age spirituality that I've seen. 


[00:29:46] Gina: Yeah, I was gonna bring that up. 


[00:29:47] Ben: And there are a lot of mediums. I even saw an interview with a medium who became a Christian, and she talked a lot about that kind of thing, the New Age spirituality, how she would talk to people about Jesus. 


[00:29:57] She would even pray with people before a seance, or before she would give them a spiritual reading, because Jesus is a part of the light. It's just he's one of many things in the light. And those other things that you're going to try to reach for, if you're leaning into this, aren't good. Said before, if it's not God, it's not good. 


[00:30:13] Gina: Yeah, the biggest thing that, the biggest argument that my mom has made is like, I'm not hurting anybody, but then like Jesus said, he's the light of the world and what I'm doing is light. 


[00:30:23] Ben: Well, let's say that you weren't hurting anyone else aside from yourself. Do you own yourself? 


[00:30:28] Gina: It's a great question. As Christians, I mean, no. 


[00:30:31] Ben: We've been bought. The price for your sins has been paid, but you can reject that. And if you decide that you own your own life, you can do whatever it is you want with it. And it doesn't matter what this Jesus dude says, you're just gonna do your own thing. That is a rejection of the Lord. So, yes, it may be your life. 


[00:30:50] That doesn't mean that it belongs to you. 


[00:30:53] Gina: Go ahead. 


[00:30:53] Ben: The 


[00:30:53] Cody: dangerous thing is the New Age movement is making its way into the church. So, the church, I mean, starting at the Reformation, seemed to swing completely right against any kind of spiritualism. 


[00:31:11] Gina: Meaning like charismatic type. Is that what you're talking about? 


[00:31:14] Yes. Yeah. 


[00:31:15] Cody: So like anything spiritual, anything that didn't make sense, like to the 


[00:31:21] Gina: point, 


[00:31:21] Cody: yeah. To the point, like Luther had his own Bible that, you know, kind of segregated certain books because they were too spiritual and they didn't make literal sense in his contextual viewpoint. So he either wanted to get rid of them or didn't hold as much weight to them just because they were so far out of his purview. 


[00:31:45] And you have that start then. And now we're getting back, okay, There is this spiritual aspect to God. We read about it in the Bible. Why are we not experiencing that in the church? And then in comes the New Age movement. 


[00:31:59] Gina: Well, you hear about revival, and everybody wants to see revival, and very few people actually have. 


[00:32:06] And I think that we're all so desperate for those big feelings that we're turning to the quickest thing. That's my opinion. Did you have a thought? 


[00:32:13] Ben: Yeah, I do think that a lot of these things are tied to a pendulum that swings one way for one generation and another way another. And there has been a focus at one time on trying to get us back to something that's solid. 


[00:32:26] That our focus should not be on spiritual things and on what God can do for you, but rather on what he tells us to do. So living a righteous life. According to what God tells us is righteous, being a good person, and then adhering to the Great Commission to spread his word. There's value in that, but at the same time, you're denying God his power. 


[00:32:45] You're denying God his place in your life. Because when you look at the early church, yes, they lived that way, but they relied heavily on God's power and influence in their lives. And they loved the Lord and they wanted to commune with him constantly. And God worked incredible miracles through these people. 


[00:33:01] And he wants to do the same with us today. And if you decide you're not going to let him do that because that's just too spiritual or too weird? I understand the fear. 


[00:33:12] Gina: Yeah. 


[00:33:12] Ben: But it's something where you have to trust the Lord. 


[00:33:15] Gina: I've lived with that fear personally. 


[00:33:16] Ben: I have too. 


[00:33:17] Gina: It's very hard to overcome the connection that my family has with new age spiritualism, the occult satanic ritual, which my mother would totally deny ever being a part of, but that's exactly what it is. 


[00:33:32] Because I never wanted to mimic any of that. And I think it's inhibited me in some ways in my faith as a Christian, because I've been a Christian now for almost eight and a half years and like, since I got baptized, um, and I was coming to church before that, but. I have really only in the last three years entertained the idea of spiritual gifts in myself and it's just a fine, fine line, but I definitely think it's wrong to let fear prevent you from communion with God. 


[00:34:06] It's just you have to be very discerning and cautious. And where you allow that to take you and what you're curious about and what you're asking God for. Because there's a, there's a difference in intention. Like my mom's intention is to become so enlightened that she is God. And in her mind, she believes that she is a God, which is still You know, she has power, crystals have power. 


[00:34:30] Her life experiences, her past lives have elevated her into this enlightened being that has these abilities. I don't believe that for a second, but her intention is more self and that's totally missing the point of our relationship with God. It has nothing to do with our abilities, it has everything to do with his. 


[00:34:50] So having that be my compass has been helpful, but it's definitely been strange and I'm glad that we. I was kind of dreading having this episode because I was like, well, Mormons and Jehovah's witnesses are not really at the forefront of our lives. And we don't really deal with them very often. And they're a minority, but hearing how large their churches are, it really is a meaningful conversation because not only is it a large population, but it's also, it has, Different similarities to so many different things that could be true, but they're not. 


[00:35:25] Ben: And they approach a deviation from Christ in such a bizarre, separate way. Where Mormons are very much into, it doesn't matter if there's evidence. It doesn't matter if you can prove it. As long as you feel it, as long as you can say that you're certain of it, then it's certain, and it's true. And Jehovah's Witnesses are, okay, so, all of this is wrong, and you have no proof that it's right, and we have the only version of the Bible, and what the Bible says, we will adhere to 100%, and we're not going to take blood transfusions, because this part in the Bible may be interpreted that way, and we're not going to do any celebrations whatsoever, because those are all pagan. 


[00:36:02] It's such a bizarre puritanical reversal of that, where there is almost no feeling, It's like there is no spirit inside of you that can be moved. There's nothing spiritual about you that God can commune with. And so all that's left is what you do. And so, yes, there's not an enormous, ridiculously crazy number of either Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormons. 


[00:36:23] There are millions of them to be sure, but in comparison to full Christianity, which is well over the billions, and Islam, which is in the billions as well. It's nothing that's, you know, absolutely out of the ordinary or unexpected. But still, Looking at them and looking at New Age spirituality, you see that there is some commonality there. 


[00:36:43] You can see how that can slip in, and how different temptations from even Christianity's past can slip in, and slowly corrupt an idea to the point where it starts to detach. And it can no longer help someone. At least, not save them. Because like we said, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormonism, and even New Age spirituality, to an extent, can be helpful in addressing a specific problem at a specific time. 


[00:37:07] If you're a drug addict and then you find some Transcendent value. You suddenly realize that you maybe were a militant atheist and you lost all hope. And then new age spirituality comes in and then you think, wow, spirits and something beyond me exists. It gives 


[00:37:21] Gina: people confidence that they didn't have. 


[00:37:24] Like my students, they're like, well, I sleep better or I'm a better person or I'm happier, like. Just because of a rock? 


[00:37:30] Ben: It introduces people at the very least to the value of faith or belief. Not that I condone teaching it, but it's a step closer to the truth than where they were before. It's like Joy Lewis said. 


[00:37:43] Joy Lewis was the wife of C. S. Lewis. When she was looking at different religions around the world, she said that some had wisdom to an extent, but none were like the presence that she found the night that God came to her. And when she found Christianity, that was the God she knew. That was the God that came to her at the time when she was desperate, and she was vulnerable, and she was alone, and comforted her. 


[00:38:06] That is the only faith that can save. There are things that are closer and things that are far away. And yeah, it's better for you to be closer, but it's best to be right. 


[00:38:14] Cody: That's why theology and doctrine is important. 


[00:38:17] Ben: Absolutely. But that does beg the question, if there are things that are closer to the truth, is there anything that we can learn from them? 


[00:38:26] Gina: Definitely. 


[00:38:27] Ben: So what would you say are some lessons that we can take away from New Age spirituality, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Mormonism? 


[00:38:33] Gina: I think for me, I mentioned it before, but the grooming aspect, if I were to talk to another person about Jesus, like I know what not to do because of Jehovah's Witness and how I interacted with them. 


[00:38:49] And I also know what to put hope in because of my mom, you know, like her hope, like she would freak out if anybody touched her crystals because their energy would be on them and she would have to cleanse them and this whole anxiety attack just about. a rock. And it's like, no, but your hope is in something so much high. 


[00:39:08] Like my hope is in so much, something so much higher, more powerful. And, um, I don't, I don't need that kind of authority or power. To have hope and peace and a really, really fulfilling life. And so, like the lessons I guess are more about what not to do for me, but it's been very helpful when evangelizing and speaking to other people through discipleship because I would never want somebody to feel like I tricked them into believing something. 


[00:39:35] I 


[00:39:35] Cody: mean, something you can learn from Mormonism and both kind of in tandem is their, their knack for evangelism. You don't see a lot of that in, you know, the, the bigger C Christianity. It's, you know, most Christians in America anyway are, I go to church to be fed and I do nothing outside of that. And I'm not saying that to be mean, but that is the general stance of most Americans. 


[00:40:05] There is no door to door knocking and, oh, you can make the argument, that's annoying, okay, great. There's no talking about your faith with other people for the majority. of non denominational or Baptist or, you know, any of the, the Christians that you would still consider Christians as far as, you know, Catholics even, I don't think their evangelism is as on point as Mormonism and Jehovah's Witness. 


[00:40:35] Ben: I agree, they do focus a lot on evangelism, and I would say that in the way that they do it, just as it's important for us to take that lesson, that doing it is important, the motivation behind it, I think, is also very important to take a lesson for the opposite reason, because their motivations behind evangelism are not particularly good. 


[00:40:57] For Jehovah's Witnesses especially, because essentially that's, it ties into whether or not you're going to be one of the 144, 000, and it's tied into a workspace theology. It's, it's how you're saved. It's okay, do this, and hopefully you are not going to be atomized at the end of the world when Armageddon happens. 


[00:41:15] Gina: Like we evangelize as Christians because we believe that there's a hope for their future That is the same as the hope for our future But in that in Jehovah's Witness like you're basically saying I'm gonna use you I'm gonna climb on you to get to a higher level But I don't have any expectation that you're ever going to be that because then we would be in competition 


[00:41:37] Ben: Yes, you're using other people to gain a higher honor And it's in part due to social pressure from the church. 


[00:41:43] It's in part due to your expectations for the afterlife. But it's not generally because you have a genuine love for the Lord and you want to share that with other people. Now, there are absolutely Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses who approach it that way. I'm not saying that literally all of them evangelism. 


[00:42:02] Because they have to or because they get something out of it, but that is something that's built into the system You are told that it's important for you to do this and because you do it Greater honor and greater reward will be in store for you now You can make the case that similar things exist in Christianity But the point is is in the book of Revelation We all cast our crowns before the Almighty and it doesn't matter how much honor how much power how much ability we have in the end All that is laid at the feet of Jesus. 


[00:42:33] We're all made equal, no matter how great or how poor we were as a follower. All of us are the same. So, it doesn't matter how many people we've brought to Jesus, how many crowns we accumulate on our head. In the end, all that is, is glory laid at the feet of Jesus. 


[00:42:47] Gina: What if it's one million? 


[00:42:49] Ben: It's one million crowns you lay down. 


[00:42:51] Gina: Can I at least get a trophy? 


[00:42:52] Ben: You can take that up with Jesus. 


[00:42:54] Gina: Sorry. 


[00:42:57] Ben: But the Apostle Paul doesn't tell you that you're going to get some kind of Maserati or Range Rover or something when you Sorry, you're just not gonna But what about that treasure I'm storing up in heaven? 


[00:43:08] Gina: Our definition of treasure is really jacked up. 


[00:43:11] Ben: Yes. And you find with a lot of these kinds of cults, they rely on that. It's the idea that, no, the treasure is not God's treasure. It's not the fact that you've done something good, that goodness in and of itself is its own reward. It's that, no, he's just going to reward you more when you get there. 


[00:43:27] Gina: Like, think about, I don't know. 


[00:43:30] I can't imagine wanting material wealth in my afterlife because of how complicated and messy it makes life now. Like, I literally love the idea of like laying around in nature with animals and Jesus and just singing songs. Like, I, I love that idea. I can't imagine, like, why would I want to do this all over again? 


[00:43:53] Cody: Yeah, 


[00:43:56] Gina: but to do this all over again, without the limitations and boundaries of a perfect world through our faith as Christians, like, nothing that you guys described tonight about being a Mormon or a Jehovah's Witness provides an opportunity for a sinless, perfect world. And we may have jobs, and we may have marriage, and who knows what heaven is like. 


[00:44:18] And, and we may have something very similar to this, but to like, have the whole point of my life be just to like, recycle it over and over. 


[00:44:29] Cody: I don't know. My own planet sounds pretty awesome. 


[00:44:32] Gina: Only if it comes with like a whole fleet of Range Rovers. 


[00:44:36] Cody: What is it with you and 


[00:44:37] Ben: Range Rovers? 


[00:44:39] Gina: It's the standard for a super pastor. 


[00:44:44] You know I'm really good if I have a Range Rover. 


[00:44:46] Ben: Obviously. 


[00:44:49] Cody: Okay, Snape. Oh, 


[00:44:51] Ben: yes. 


[00:44:52] Cody: He's bringing 


[00:44:53] Gina: out the gloves. 


[00:44:55] Ben: I can teach you to be rich the long So, as a final question to kinda send this all off, how do we reach people like Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormons or people who are engaging in New Age spirituality? 


[00:45:08] Gina: Well I mentioned the story of the guy who sold us our water system who was a Jehovah's Witness and like he Bye! You know, the verse like outdo one another in service. We kind of, Cody and I are just nice people to strangers, I guess, because he was just so astounded that we were like offering him food. 


[00:45:28] And then I made him celery juice and none of that was done with any kind of evangelistic intention, other than just to be nice. And he was the one that said, wow, you guys are so Christ like. And the fact that he was a Jehovah's witness comparing us to Christ meant that he was thinking about it. And I, I think Cody and I just saw that as an opportunity and we prayed, like we left the room and prayed and he watched us through the window praying. 


[00:45:55] And we came back inside and he was like, did you guys just go out there and pray over this decision? And we were like, yeah. And we prayed over you too. And it's just. Just setting that example over and over of just consistent kindness. Like I say all the time, nobody ever got saved because they were called an abomination. 


[00:46:13] And I don't think belittling somebody for what they believe, like they genuinely believe, is ever going to draw them towards Jesus. I think it really does take just imitating Christ. And then, Not just leaving it there, like if you can stay connected somehow, even if it's just like, Hey, I really enjoy getting to know you. 


[00:46:33] Do you want to have coffee sometime and talk? Like trying to develop it further and see where it goes is there's nothing wrong with that. But you have to know that their intention is probably the same for you. 


[00:46:44] Ben: Just building off of what you said, the strongest witness that you can be is one where you are living a life like Christ. 


[00:46:52] And when people see that. They see what you're doing, and they see the quality of your life, and they say, I want that. And a part of that is trust. Sometimes it's going to take you weeks, months, even years, of knowing someone who's not a Christian, or is Christian adjacent, or who's practicing new age spirituality. 


[00:47:09] It may take a very long time for them to trust you enough, to the point where they'll look at your life and think, Okay, I've seen enough of it. And I know enough about you that I can trust you, and I can trust that what I see is real. And it is hard, because a lot of this stuff goes to a person's foundational beliefs. 


[00:47:25] If you tell a Mormon or Jehovah's Witness that what they believe is absolute hooey, you're right, they're going to retreat into their shell. They're going to be like, well, obviously you're the enemy. You don't believe, you're representing the devil, and you're trying to tempt me. But if they trust you, and they know that you love them, and they know that you live a life that is genuinely Christ like, and though they don't agree with us about who Christ is, They do have a respect for him, and then they see that, that level of goodness in you, and that you understand it better than they do, then yeah, they might take that first step and think, maybe I'm wrong. 


[00:47:59] Gina: If you can pull one Jenga block out, you've already destabilized what they believe. And it's a matter of time between, like, earthquakes or whatever in their life that it's gonna crumble. 


[00:48:11] Ben: And for some folks, all it really takes is asking questions, not as much with Jehovah's Witnesses. Like, it's tough, it's tougher with Jehovah's Witnesses. 


[00:48:19] For them, uh, Pastor Mike Winger did a video about what he does, and it's, he actually has a version of the Jehovah's Witnesses Bible. And it's a version that has the original Greek with it. And so they can see that it's one of their authentic books that they can actually read and that they trust. And then he'll go over the actual biblical Greek with them. 


[00:48:38] And then they can see what the Bible actually says. And he'll even use their own version, which is a bit off, but there are parts in it that will still verify that Jesus was the Son of God, that Jesus is God, that he's divine. And so he'll go through that. And then that helps, but in the end, it's still a hostile person. 


[00:48:55] Who's trying to use your own material against you. There's still that barrier between you, but that may be just planting the seed. Maybe that's it. Like you said, you take, you pull out one single block, the whole structure starts to fall apart. And for some people that's enough, but I would say the majority of time, it is going to take time. 


[00:49:13] Gina: My mom has been in New Age Spiritualism since I was about 10, maybe before, but she kept it a secret. And I'm 32 now, and she's still in it, just as deep, if not deeper than she was. And it's taken me years to come to terms with the fact that I can't have the relationship with her that I want. And that's only one small reason. 


[00:49:37] But I pray for her every single day. I've sent her so many letters and books to help her. I've encouraged her to go to celebrate recovery, and my aunt just visited, and my aunt is her sister, and so being in our home for the first time in five years and seeing how different I am and how different my life is, I know she left impacted, and she left motivated to talk to my mom, and so now I've got somebody else chipping away at her, and it just takes a circle of influence. 


[00:50:07] It takes patience and it takes knowing it could never happen, but like with Christ, anything is possible. And I have hope that she is going to go to heaven. I wrote it down on my wall of miracles in advance and I have hope, but it's, it's not an overnight thing, even with your own parents, even with your closest people that are in your life, like you're not going to change their mind immediately. 


[00:50:31] And if you give up because you've had one or two conversations and they're being bullheaded, you're not really doing your part. Like, it can take years, it can take decades to convince somebody. And it's not our job to, to take their place of Jesus and try to save people. Sometimes praying, like what I'm doing is enough, but you can't just give up and write somebody off because like the Bible talks about in second Peter, like God isn't slow to bringing his promises, but he wants every single person to go to him. 


[00:51:04] And that takes a long time. And that's. I think part of why Jesus isn't here right now is because we're not doing our job, and we're not loving people the way that we should, and being patient with people the way that we should. 


[00:51:16] Cody: I'll leave it with a quote from Saint Francis, who was a sissy. Oh, I didn't expect that. 


[00:51:23] No, uh, it's usually attributed to him, but it still is, it's not his, but you should always preach the gospel, but only speak when necessary. 


[00:51:35] Gina: Thank you so much for taking the time to listen to our podcast today. If you liked what you heard, please feel free to subscribe and share and leave a positive review. 


[00:51:45] And if you would like to connect with us on social media, you can do so on Instagram and Facebook at the Logic of God. You can also send us an email at Maine dot the Logic of god@gmail.com. Thanks again for listening. We hope you have a great day.

Are Mormons Christian?

[00:00:00] Cody: Hi, thank you for tuning in to the Logic of God podcast. I'm Cody. 


[00:00:16] Gina: I'm Gina. 


[00:00:17] Cody: And I'm Ben. If you're returning, thank you for coming back and if you are a new guest, welcome. 


[00:00:30] Gina: How do people fall into, I don't, I don't want to call it a trap, but how do people fall into the trap of. Believing things like Mormonism or Jehovah's Witness type religions, as opposed to like the more mainstream Christianity. 


[00:00:47] Ben: Some of them are born into it. In fact, I would say most of them are born into it. 


[00:00:52] Sometimes people are approached during very vulnerable times of their lives, and they don't really have much meaning. And then these very happy and kind people, and they are genuinely some of the happiest and kindest people you're ever going to meet, they present you with this new meaning in your life. 


[00:01:07] And You look at these people and think, okay, whatever they have, I, I want it too. So that's a lot of the stuff that I've seen. As far as anything beyond that, like convincing arguments, I haven't seen too many convincing arguments. There have been some people who've fallen away from the faith and then joined a Jehovah's Witness or a Mormon church and then shortly after that left because they learned more about them and then realized they didn't agree with anything. 


[00:01:33] So, there is also some of that. I think I did a lot of looking at different Mormon and Jehovah's Witness websites before doing this episode. And what I found, and I encourage everyone to go out and do this too, when you look at the material that they put forward, the stuff that they know non Jehovah's Witnesses and non Mormons will see, they try to make it as Christ adjacent as possible, as close to Christianity as they can get it. 


[00:01:58] And they'll say things like, yeah, we believe in Jesus and we believe that he's super important. We believe that he came to earth 2, 000 years and that He died, and his death and resurrection was very important. Well, you notice that they didn't say very specific things in that. They were very careful in the way that they worded that. 


[00:02:16] They want to bring you in, and they want to convince you that they are pretty darn close to Christianity. And then once they bring you in, they're gonna start Edging in the stuff that's separate and the stuff that separates us from them is very important 


[00:02:29] Gina: Yeah, 


[00:02:30] Ben: that kind of brings us to the question Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses claim to be Christians But most Christians claim that they're cults. 


[00:02:36] So why is that? 


[00:02:37] Gina: I think it's the love for me like So my daughter, my oldest daughter's grandmother, and we're a blended family. So it's not Cody's family. It's my daughter's biological family Her grandmother is Jehovah's Witness and I've learned a lot like a lot of her life was very traumatic And she was sort of preyed upon by people to convince her that you know They would support her and comfort her and be there for her Um, but it became like this super strict kind of judgmental environment where she wasn't like, you know, she, she raised her son wanting to have, you know, good memories with him. 


[00:03:20] But then it was like, oh, you can't celebrate his birthday and you can't buy him Christmas gifts. And, you know, it's become so inhibiting for her that. She like won't even buy gifts at all because she doesn't know morally in her heart if it's for a celebration. And it's, it's so restrictive now. It's almost like she's, Like she can't have meaningful relationships with anybody. 


[00:03:43] She can't date because if she dates, then the church is going to say something and she can't go to Thanksgiving or have a special meal because if she does, the church is going to say something. So, um, I don't know, like the further that she got into it, the less she had her own say. And I think that's where the cult type mentality comes in, is where you don't have any freedom. 


[00:04:07] Um, you know, in, in the Christian church, you, you're still able to sin, you're still able to make your own decisions, and we, we hope that we don't sin, but we're not condemned by everybody that we've ever known because we've sinned. And I think that's the cult mentality that's really damaging, and then you feel like you can't get out. 


[00:04:28] I don't know. Do you have any thoughts? 


[00:04:30] Cody: I think why most Christians would consider it a cult is just because the core foundations of being a Christian and following Christ and believing the divinity, neither one of them really truly believe in the divinity of Christ, and we'll cover that in a little bit. 


[00:04:47] Um, but. Like you said, I mean, you got the, the cult mentality, um, with they're very restrictive on questioning beliefs and doctrines and certain ends and outs of the faith that they have, um, very, very restrictive and frown upon it. And, um, Christianity is not like that. Um, if you're in a. Good, and most churches will actually encourage you to question it. 


[00:05:17] I mean, our church does it on student nights and, um, I've, we've been to another church in Ohio that, you know, basically asked the pastor any question and, you know, it's encouraged to understand why you believe what you believe and why Christianity stands out from other religions as well. 


[00:05:37] Gina: I think the biggest tell for. 


[00:05:40] A solid, like, teacher in religion is somebody that's willing to, like, hear your questions and entertain them. And then also someone that's willing to say, I don't know, let me find out and get back to you. There's a certain level of credibility there instead of like, well, just do what I say. 


[00:05:58] Ben: There are also certain things where if you're not hyperbolic and you're literally just stating the origins of certain things in Jehovah's Witness theology and Mormon theology, they sound so bizarre and insane that they sound made up. 


[00:06:14] And yeah, that could be because we grew up outside of this and we didn't hear a lot of it. But when you talk to a lot of people about Christianity, even if they disagree and they're hearing it for the first time, they think, you know, that actually makes sense. I get that a lot with people who I talk with Christianity about. 


[00:06:30] Now, at first there may be a kind of gut reaction, like, okay, so God came to earth, but when you go deeper into it over time, they, they warm to it pretty quickly. Trying to steel man their positions as much as possible and just say, okay, we look at just the core things that they believe, not what led to these core things and not, you You have the stories behind them, just the core ideas. 


[00:06:53] I would say the reason that we would describe the core ideas as being cultish, as being not Christian is because they directly and very clearly contradict the five core principles, the five core assumptions in Christianity. Now we kind of touched on this earlier. There are some people, other denominations or non denominational churches who claim to be Christian, and there are some doctrines that can. 


[00:07:16] potentially be in contradiction, in direct opposition to these. And there is some, there will be some debate on that for these. It's so clear and obvious that there really is no, no questioning it. Like 


[00:07:30] Gina: it's so obvious because of what you believe, or it's so obvious for everybody. Well, 


[00:07:34] Ben: we'll get to that. 


[00:07:35] Okay. So in order for us to really address this properly, we need to address each individual belief system on its own. So first Mormonism, what do Mormons believe? 


[00:07:45] Cody: I 


[00:07:47] Gina: mean, there's stereotypes. Are we talking stereotypes or are we talking literally? We 


[00:07:51] Ben: can start from stereotypes. So when you think of a Mormon, what do you think? 


[00:07:55] Gina: Lots of wives. 


[00:07:58] Cody: Which that one's like what most people go to. And I think the open door to getting them inside in their missionary journey is that is actually a separate denomination of Mormonism. They, they broke off from that. The main church of the Latter day Saints broke off from that belief. a while ago and now it's like a separate that 


[00:08:20] Ben: they consider a cult. 


[00:08:21] Well, the trouble with that is that Joseph Smith himself had about 40 wives. About 14 of them were already married when he married them. One of them I know was 14. So one. Yeah. One of the issues, again, I didn't want to go too much into this, but it's something you do have to address. The founder of the feast himself, Joseph Smith is the head prophet who was the one who created this offshoot of Christianity called Mormonism. 


[00:08:48] And that guy. He had 40 wives and a lot of the stuff that he said as far as teachings were from gold tablets that he found, supposedly, I believe it was in the mountains of New York somewhere, just out there, and he claimed that he just found these gold tablets. Years before that he had prayed to God and asked him to show him what the true denomination was and then God himself told Joseph Smith that none of them were right, that all of us are complete heretics, literally all Christians are heretics. 


[00:09:19] And this isn't my opinion, this isn't my interpretation, this is literally stuff that Joseph Smith wrote and I encourage everyone to go out and check this out for yourself, don't just take my word on it. But essentially Joseph Smith taught that all other Christians are heretics. His denomination is the only true one. 


[00:09:33] And that the stuff that he eventually put down in the Book of Mormon and the Pearl of Great Price and whatnot, that stuff that was, that came from golden tablets that he found out in the mountains that were written in ancient Egyptian hieroglyphics. And eventually those tablets actually went missing. 


[00:09:50] They just disappeared. I think someone stole them. Maybe it was his mom or something like that. No, I thought he buried them. I've heard a bunch of different, uh, Tellings of the story, but one way or another, the gold tablets that he had the Egyptian hieroglyphics on from God that were given by an angel, they got, they disappeared, and so he needed to find another way to read them, and so he had this hat, and he had these, Gina, no, this is very serious stuff, so he had this, Is 


[00:10:16] Gina: there a rabbit? 


[00:10:18] Ben: Sort of. So yeah, he, he had this hat and then he had these spectacles that had these very special crystal lenses and he would just take the hat and he would look down in the hat and then he would read the tablets and he would dictate to a person who, I can't remember the name of the guy. He was another one of the higher ups of Mormonism and he would just write these down. 


[00:10:39] Now, automatically when I say that, it sounds a bit crazy. Sounds like a 


[00:10:43] Gina: children's television show. Uh 


[00:10:45] Ben: huh. And one of the main things that was taught in these gold tablets that he got, I was talking with Gina about this earlier, so hopefully she's, she's solid against this and she won't, she won't be tempted to laugh because this is very serious, is that the Jews actually migrated to America. 


[00:11:03] I think it was roughly 600 BC, around there, it was a while before Jesus was born. And, the Jews developed into two separate nations, one of them was light skinned and good, one of them was dark skinned and bad. And, eventually, uh, there was a war between the two sides, and the light skinned Jews were completely wiped out by the dark skinned Jews, who were evil, and, they were all wiped out, and Jesus had appeared to the light skinned Jews, and they were wiped out, and that's why we don't know anything about, uh, The light skinned Jews, and there's no evidence that they ever existed, but they totally did. 


[00:11:35] And this is the stuff that was written in ancient Egyptian hieroglyphics on these gold tablets that he was reading. And that's not the only thing that was written there, just, just some of the stuff that was written there. And the point in setting all this out right now is that, yes, hearing all this without knowing anything more about the stuff that Joseph Smith taught, does this sound like a reasonable faith? 


[00:11:57] Gina: No, it sounds completely made up. 


[00:12:01] Cody: To play, again, The Devil's Advocate. Please. Gonna be tough, but, so, our, our atheist friends, you know, I, I hear, You know, we hear this as crazy, but also I can understand where a talking snake who entices humans to eat an apple off of a tree that God made can sound crazy as well. 


[00:12:25] Ben: Sure. There's individual aspects of the Bible that seem crazy to people outside of it. And yet when you go through the Bible, the places that are referenced are real and the places that, and the people are real. And even the people in places that. We're once argued from an archaeological standpoint as they having, you know, no evidence for them. 


[00:12:44] Turned out that they actually did exist. There's now archaeological evidence, pretty firm stuff for David. And for a while, they claimed that David didn't exist. No, he probably did. But the point is, is that archaeological discussion exists in the Bible. And there are people, archaeologists, who take the Bible and use it as the standard for archaeological discovery. 


[00:13:04] Like, it's a very valuable book, and it's useful, even if you don't agree with everything, and even if you think parts of it sound insane. The reality is, is it is valid, and it's existed for literally thousands of years. And in an entire civilization, multiple civilizations, all of Western culture is built on this book. 


[00:13:22] Now, you have Joseph Smith's book. 


[00:13:24] Cody: Are you telling me that they haven't found archaeological evidence of the light skinned Jews? 


[00:13:29] Ben: Unfortunately not. 


[00:13:30] Gina: Those are my people. 


[00:13:33] Ben: And the thing is is Mormons themselves are aware of this and they will discuss it and say, but look, you have to take this by faith. It doesn't matter if there's any evidence for it or not. 


[00:13:42] You have to take it by faith. It is very much a faith based religion where it doesn't matter what evidence is presented against it. You have to take it by faith that it's true. 


[00:13:50] Gina: It's the because I said so type. 


[00:13:52] Ben: It is very much that way. 


[00:13:54] Cody: And that's why I thank you for taking that the direction I really wanted That, that is what sets the Bible apart in many different faiths and religions from their quote unquote 


[00:14:07] Ben: book. 


[00:14:08] It's amazing the number of times if you read the book of Exodus, when you read the book of Kings and Chronicles, it will say, this is the place that this happened. It is there to this day. I mean, we've seen 


[00:14:20] Gina: the footprint of the tabernacle, like, in person, so, and it's built to the exact specifications in scripture, and to have confirmations of things that are accurate according to the Bible. 


[00:14:35] Show up in different countries or in different areas run by different religions and have that be confirmed, you know, it's, it's very powerful. Like it would be very, I think, easy for Muslim areas to or Jewish areas to bury certain evidence, but they don't. And I think that is one of the most compelling arguments for the Bible's accuracy historically, even though there's poetry or, like, imagery or just stories that sound unbelievable or make no sense. 


[00:15:09] Ben: And maybe some parts of the Bible are meant to be taken as poetic or stories that have traditionally been taken as historical. That's entirely possible. I'm open to that opinion. And there are certain people like Dr. John Lennox and Dr. William Lane Craig, who make that case. And I believe that they are Christians, to be clear. 


[00:15:25] Just because I disagree with them on those specific doctrines doesn't mean that I think that they're any less Christian than I am, but as it pertains to Mormonism, so we 


[00:15:35] Cody: covered that, okay. On the surface there, there, how the belief or the, the faith, the religion started in the founder of the feast. Yeah. 


[00:15:47] The founder of the, it's a bit crazy. Okay. So with that said though, what. Makes them not Christian. So we're comparing them to Christianity. They're claiming to be Christianity We're calling cult. They're claiming Christianity. What makes them not Christian? Mm 


[00:16:04] Ben: hmm and to be fair everything that we've discussed up to now doesn't exclude them from being Christian It just means that the person who is kind of the head of their denomination was banana flapjacks insane 


[00:16:16] Gina: And I mean, okay There are Christian churches in America that believe really wacky things. 


[00:16:22] Cody: Absolutely. Oh gosh. 


[00:16:23] Gina: Grave soaking and the glory cloud and 


[00:16:26] Cody: Serpent 


[00:16:26] Ben: seed stuff like. Gina believes the Holy Spirit's a pink cloud. 


[00:16:30] Gina: Yes, I do. 


[00:16:31] Ben: And that's okay. Legitimately. That's my 


[00:16:34] Gina: personal, that's different. It's my personal relationship with the Holy Spirit. It's different than convincing a A 4, 000 person church service that there is a literal pink cloud hovering over the people, and they all believe 


[00:16:50] Ben: it. 


[00:16:51] But still. Up to this point, we haven't said anything that specifically precludes modern Mormons from being Christian. We've only established that the lead up and the person who established this was a bit off his rocker. Wacky. So, let's discuss the core teachings, the core ideas, and do our best to steel man them here. 


[00:17:11] Let's try to be fair. Number one, do they believe that God exists? Yes, they do believe that God exists. However, God isn't the only God who exists. God, our God, God the Father, once existed on a different planet many, many thousands of years ago. And he was a man, just like we are, he's human. And eventually he died and was resurrected in a glorious spiritual form and slowly over time gained more and more godly power and eventually became the God that he is now. 


[00:17:48] And he has a wife at least one in heaven and that's how jesus came about as well as satan So jesus and satan are brothers and then eventually Gina, no, no faces. No faces. That makes this difficult. Try to be respectful 


[00:18:02] Gina: No, I know it's reminding me so much of new age spiritualism that my mom has talked about So that's why i'm making faces and 


[00:18:08] Ben: that's why this is relevant that we we do need to address this stuff Yeah, eventually jesus was sent down to earth And he wasn't a god yet But then he died on the cross and then he became a god. 


[00:18:22] Yeah, and they also believe that the Holy Spirit exists and is another God. So they believe in three separate gods that are That's their version of the Trinity. There is only one actual full God, which is God the Father. But the other two were, but 


[00:18:36] Cody: there's not only one full God. There is many. Yes. There's many creator gods. 


[00:18:41] And you can even trace that back into like, somehow they, I don't think they die, but they keep going back. Okay. Where did the gods that created. This God come from and it keeps good. There's no singular cause like the Bible teaches. They 


[00:18:58] Ben: believe that there is literally an infinite number of gods that exist in the universe. 


[00:19:03] Now, 


[00:19:04] Gina: do they believe that people can die and become a God? Yes. Yes. Okay. That's like exactly what my mother believes. 


[00:19:13] Cody: You too can rule your own plan. 


[00:19:18] Ben: Now that, that does depend on how, uh, Holy you were throughout life, but that's a separate teaching. Listen, 


[00:19:23] Gina: she's very holy. 


[00:19:25] Ben: Okay, by Mormon standards Well, that's good 


[00:19:31] Gina: Sorry, 


[00:19:31] Ben: yes, so Cody you actually put down a note here It's a process called exaltation and it's in the teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith pages 345 To 347 and page 354, just as a reference for people, if they want to look at this, 


[00:19:46] Gina: it's proof that they've done their research. 


[00:19:48] Yeah, 


[00:19:49] Cody: you can get a lot of this stuff for free. Um, like Brigham and Young, um, has a lot of these just in PDF format. Google it, you can download it, read it for yourself. We're not making this stuff up. He just read the page numbers. This is, you know, straight from. It really amazes 


[00:20:07] Gina: me how much of this aligns with New Age Spiritualism. 


[00:20:10] Cody: That's why, uh, putting those together, I thought it would be good for the episode. 


[00:20:15] Ben: Okay, now putting up a pause on reading any further, we've only gone through one doctrine right now. Is this already enough to say that they are not Christian? 


[00:20:24] Gina: It depends, and I'm not knowledgeable on Mormonism, but I think it depends on their explanation of Jesus purpose. 


[00:20:32] Ben: So they do believe that that was for the forgiveness of sins, but it's more for 


[00:20:38] Cody: So they could still get a so if we're basing the christianity off of repenting grace through god He's the only reason They could still technically even if they don't believe that I don't know like the whole trinity thing I think if you don't believe in the trinity that kind of just removes here. 


[00:20:58] Well, 


[00:20:58] Ben: so we'll get to christ's purpose a bit later You But just taking this as the first of our core assumptions as Christians is that God exists. But what we claim God is as Christians is we claim that He is the triune God. He is the Father, Son, the Holy Spirit. We believe in the Trinity. Now the version of God that they present is not eternal. 


[00:21:19] He's not from everlasting to everlasting. He's finite and He was once us. And the thing is the morality that this God preaches Is going to be different from the literal infinite number of other gods that exist. So the question is like from the christian perspective God's goodness is immutable. It's a part of him. 


[00:21:41] It's who he is and it's as part of nature as Actual nature is it's impossible to change But at one point he was fallible and he was a human and then he became a god. So Are his teachings on morality is his morality arbitrary? You Seemingly so, because there are an infinite number of other gods. 


[00:22:02] Gina: Do they teach, do they teach that Jesus was sinless or that God can't sin or didn't sin? 


[00:22:09] I know that that's not relevant, but I'm just curious. 


[00:22:12] Ben: Well, for the sake of kind of iron manning this, I, I don't fully know 'cause I'm not an expert on Mormonism. But let's say for the, for the moment that God was always. Good. They do claim that He was righteous, but I don't know if they claim that He was 


[00:22:25] Cody: sinless. 


[00:22:25] But God was a human being, like, a human being like us. So they basically think that we can be the same as our Creator. Like, we, God ruling over our Earth, Is the same that we can do somewhere else. So they believe that God was a human humanoid being at one point died, set his own laws, you know, saw that the laws were good, set his own laws into place, got his own planet and is ruling over that now. 


[00:22:58] Gina: So does that put the point of being a Mormon less on the salvation and relationship with God and more on the like, eternal destination of becoming your own God? 


[00:23:11] Cody: It's hard because you, there's a lot of this in, uh, Christian faith right now, like this theosis, which is like the, the process of becoming a light God or like a spiritual being. 


[00:23:24] And you got a lot of this talk, especially lately with the, you know, the gods of the Bible, you know, the, the term Elohim can be plural. So like, and it's used plural a lot, but it's just meant to be spiritual beings. And you can get to a lot of. The plurality of little g gods in the Bible, but that's not the same as what they're teaching here 


[00:23:52] Gina: Thank you for clarifying 


[00:23:53] Ben: when there's also in Christianity We don't believe that we will ever be the same as God. 


[00:23:59] Correct. We are the creation. He is the creator And we are subservient to him. In the teachings of Mormonism, they claim that we are basically the same thing as Christ. We are all children of God, it's just Jesus is older than us and farther along. And so he is much closer to Godhood, God's Godhood, than we are. 


[00:24:18] But one day we will be at Christ's level. We'll be even beyond that given enough time. And so, yes, that's already we've gotten to an issue where they have a fundamental disagreement on who God is. Now, does that mean automatically now we've strayed outside of Christianity? I would say yes. 


[00:24:37] Gina: Yeah. 


[00:24:38] Ben: But we're going to push it further. 


[00:24:39] Yeah, we're going to say maybe we're wrong about this one. Maybe somehow there's, it's, it doesn't matter so much who you think God is. It's just that you address that God exists. I would disagree with that, but let's go. Let's go with that. We'll assume for now that it doesn't matter how God is, it's just that God exists is important. 


[00:24:57] So next part is scripture. So what do they think about scripture? They believe that God continues to reveal scripture to this day through the prophets, such as Joseph Smith and even their current church president. They have books outside of the Bible that they refer to as scripture, such as the Book of Mormon, the Pearl of Great Price, and the Bible. 


[00:25:14] Uh, the Doctrine and Covenants. The Bible itself is considered to be less authoritative than the other sources, and their translation is the Joseph Smith Bible, which differs significantly from Christian translations. An example of this would be Joseph Smith specifically added verses in Genesis that are prophecies about him coming as a prophet. 


[00:25:35] And as an example, I put down two of these verses in Genesis, uh, chapter 50, verse 30. 


[00:25:41] Gina: This is coming from the Joseph Smith version. Genesis 50 30, And again a seer will I raise up out of the fruit of thy loins, and unto him will I give power to bring forth my word unto the seed of thy loins, and not to the bringing forth of my word only, saith the Lord, but to the convincing them of my word, which shall have already gone forth among them in the last days. 


[00:26:11] Ben: Now 33 is actually a bit more on the nose. You could say that's kind of vague. 


[00:26:16] Gina: And that seer will I bless, and they that seek to destroy him shall be confounded. For this promise I give unto you. For I will remember you from generation to generation, and his name shall be called Joseph, and it shall be after the name of his father. 


[00:26:35] And he shall be like unto you, for the thing which the Lord shall bring forth by his hand shall bring my people unto salvation. 


[00:26:45] Ben: Thank you, Gina. 


[00:26:46] Gina: It's like reading the KJV. 


[00:26:47] Ben: It's a bit like that, yes. You got the flowery language down pat. But you will notice if you try to bring this up on any other version of the Bible, these verses don't exist. 


[00:26:57] Joseph Smith literally added these to the Bible. 


[00:26:59] Gina: How is this any different than the Message Bible? 


[00:27:02] Ben: I'm not familiar with the Message Bible. 


[00:27:03] Gina: Cody can answer. And it's kind of just a trick question. So, like, 


[00:27:08] Cody: the Message Bible is more of a commentary than an actual Bible. Um, the Passion Version I would put more at this level, because I want to say the Passion Version is, you know, 30 percent longer than the normal Bible, just because of all of the additional explaining they do. 


[00:27:26] But it's 


[00:27:27] Gina: So this is not found in the original. 


[00:27:30] Cody: This is different because they're literally adding verses to the Bible. The passion and message did not do that to my knowledge. 


[00:27:39] Gina: So the passion and the message are an expansion of what's already there, but this is an addition. 


[00:27:46] Cody: So like, you know how you, you've explained it. 


[00:27:49] There's like the word for word translation, like the NASB, um, ESV is kind of closer than there's like the thought for thought message and the passion are like, All the way on the right floor. 


[00:28:02] Ben: Yeah. Let's say that I was having a conversation with someone in Spanish and I'd say like, and so you say, what, what did you just say? 


[00:28:10] I don't know anything about Spanish. Like, Oh, I said, hi, how are you? That's not literally word for word exactly. That's just a translation of what it is, and I'm doing my best to represent it. And then there might be someone else who heard that and said, Well, because you're really, really close to this person, and you're saying it with more of a loving tone, I'm just gonna add some commentary and some background info on this to let people know the basis of this conversation. 


[00:28:32] And then there's Joseph Smith who comes in and says, Also, he was talking about me, and he specifically adds additional lines to the conversation. It's not expounding or translating or trying to give clarity. It's literally adding something to the actual conversation that's happening. And Mormons, again, this isn't something that they deny. 


[00:28:49] What they say is that the original Bible was corrupted, that the Bible that all of Christians use is wrong, and it's been mistranslated, and Joseph Smith was given the actual translation. The original version of Genesis that is true and that version of Genesis mentioned him directly 


[00:29:09] Gina: and and he got this information Because he is a prophet. 


[00:29:13] Cody: Yes, because he prayed and an angel came to him multiple times 


[00:29:19] Ben: Now once again, let's put a pause here looking at this doctrine by itself Is this doctrine the idea that there's additions to Scripture that you can add to Scripture itself? You Something that excludes Mormons from being Christian or Mormonism rather not that Mormons themselves can't be but that the faith itself is not Christian 


[00:29:40] Cody: you know when people talk about red flags and dating and all of that stuff like This is a red flag of religion when somebody and you know, somebody added or there's no other versions Specifically something to give himself, yeah, credibility. 


[00:29:59] That's a huge red flag. It'd be like, if I started a school, a college school, gave myself a PhD in something, and then that school closed, like, am I an authority on whatever I just gave myself a degree for? No. So, 


[00:30:16] Gina: but you identify. As a doctor professor, and you are a doctor professor, so. 


[00:30:22] Ben: You will call me doctor 


[00:30:23] Gina: professor. 


[00:30:23] Ben: Hello, doctor professor. 


[00:30:25] Gina: That's a quote from Spongebob, you're welcome. 


[00:30:29] Ben: We went there. Beyond its time, that show. 


[00:30:33] Cody: It really is. 


[00:30:34] Ben: This is a doctrine that's kind of going against the number five assumption that we have, that God speaks to us through Scripture. And we went through an entire episode talking about the idea that Scripture itself is meant to be the canon. 


[00:30:48] It's meant to be the measuring rod against which all other truth is measured. If we are capable of retroactively going back and saying, No, that's not it. It's 100 percent false, and I'm going to add literally myself. Into the Bible. 


[00:31:02] Gina: Into thousands year old texts. 


[00:31:04] Ben: Yes. Setting aside the fact that we have very, very old manuscripts stretching back literally thousands of years. 


[00:31:11] And so, it's pretty certain that Joseph Smith was not mentioned in anything. 


[00:31:16] Gina: Do you know how many Mormons exist in the world today? 


[00:31:19] Ben: I believe it's something like 16 million. There's 


[00:31:21] Gina: a lot. It's 


[00:31:22] Ben: a 


[00:31:22] Cody: lot. 


[00:31:23] Gina: It's a big church. 


[00:31:23] Ben: Yes, pretty big. Again, don't quote me on it. I know it's in roughly that, that ballpark could be like 12 to 16, something like that. 


[00:31:30] But yeah, there's, there's millions of them. 


[00:31:33] Gina: Does that, does their church service at all resemble a Standard Christian church service. Yep. 


[00:31:39] Cody: There's 


[00:31:39] Ben: like 


[00:31:39] Cody: liturgy and 


[00:31:41] Gina: like worship music and stuff 


[00:31:43] Ben: I've never personally been to one 


[00:31:45] Gina: Cody's the one who well, I don't know which what's closer to 


[00:31:49] Cody: 17 million. 


[00:31:50] Gina: Oh, 


[00:31:51] Cody: you were short. 


[00:31:52] Uh, 1 million 


[00:31:54] Ben: You're taking 1 million away. What's a million between friends? But yeah, gina you haven't really given your opinion on this yet So what do you think that just the act of adding to scripture is something that? That removes the faith itself, not necessarily the members. We do want to make that distinction, but the faith itself as something that excludes it from being Christian. 


[00:32:14] Gina: I mean, he used the word loins, so it's pretty legit. He could be right. No, honestly, I'm a very, I take a long time to trust. Mm 


[00:32:28] Ben: hmm. 


[00:32:28] Gina: And. Like Cody has taught me to be more analytical than I used to be. Um, I kind of jumped into Christianity with rose colored glasses. So it would have been really easy for me to be deceived by this. 


[00:32:40] Um, especially with my upbringing, um, because my mom. Was involved in occult activities and just really strange things growing up. And I was very fearful of learning anything about religion because I was scared that, um, for a couple of reasons, just like that, what she had done had somehow tainted me. Um, and also just not wanting to be involved in any kind of supernatural stuff. 


[00:33:07] And so it would have been easy for me to get looped into something like Mormonism or Jehovah's witness religion. And. I actually did, um, start to talk to my ex's mom about becoming a Jehovah's Witness before I realized what it really was. So I don't know, like when you're vulnerable, I can see how it's really easy to have somebody say like, because I said so, and have that structure feel super reliable and trustworthy. 


[00:33:33] But I mean, now I kind of laugh about it, but the truth is it probably like old me would have fallen into this very easily. 


[00:33:40] Ben: Once again, stepping back. And just looking at what Mormonism has done, Mormonism has helped a lot of people who are struggling with different issues in their life. And just because it's not specifically 100 percent Christian, and that is my feeling on that, and we'll expound on it even further than we already have. 


[00:33:57] I don't believe that it is Christian, but just because it's not Christian doesn't mean that it hasn't helped people. 


[00:34:03] Gina: And 


[00:34:03] Ben: there are people who've used it as a stepping stone to Christianity. 


[00:34:06] Gina: I mean, so I'm an adoptee. And one of the most powerful resources that helped me figure out information on my biological family was the Church of the Latter day Saints. 


[00:34:18] Um, they have so many resources for genealogy and, um, a lot of the work that they've done is super helpful just for, you know, record keeping for the history of mankind. And so while I think there's not full truth here, I do believe that, um, But they're not like, you know, inherently evil or bad people. 


[00:34:38] Ben: You'll find that a lot of the younger Mormons don't specifically know about a lot of the crazier things that we've talked about here. And their faith is actually much closer to actual Christianity, like full Christianity. And it's much later in life where they're told about the more expanded theology about God being from a different planet. 


[00:34:57] And being a human essentially on that planet and about there being many, many gods. They don't know about that when they're younger. So again, this is a, I want to very clearly say, it's not that I think Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses are beyond salvation or that none of them will be saved when they go to heaven. 


[00:35:15] That salvation itself is in God's hands. God is loving. God is just. And God is good. And only he knows the heart. So I'm not going to say that every single Jehovah's Witness or every single Mormon is going to hell or is not saved. What I am saying is that if we're looking at the theology itself, is it the theology that is saving them or are they saved in spite of their theology? 


[00:35:39] And I would say this theology itself. Is not Christian, it's not going to save. If you teach people this, the theology will not save 


[00:35:47] Gina: them. No, absolutely. I think what brings people in is probably having a tangible person that's saying this is true because it doesn't require faith. Mm-Hmm. . Whereas in Christianity, you have an invisible kind of. 


[00:36:03] man that, you know, you can't see, you can't necessarily audibly hear. And so it takes a lot more strength and courage and like critical thinking skills to overcome that kind of faith as opposed to the kind of faith where they say, believe me because I said so. And you're like, well, sounds, sounds fine. 


[00:36:23] Cody: And one of the tactics of both of these Religions is attacking christianity in general is as a whole is if Christianity was true religion or true christianity Then there would be still interaction with god and that's where they throw their prophets in there, you know Like we have this modern day Connection to God. 


[00:36:49] And that 


[00:36:49] Gina: exists in our church. Where's that? 


[00:36:51] Cody: But it's not the same. No, it's not. It's like the NAR movement we talked a little about. You know, there's these elevations to profit and people want that. They want this person who is in constant communion with God only hearing what he's telling them. And then they got to do everything he says. 


[00:37:10] And 


[00:37:10] Gina: let me tell you what, I saw a service Last year, actually it was earlier this year where a man came in, said, I am a prophet. I speak on behalf of the Lord. It was a room full of people who work in ministry, not just believe in God, but work in ministry, have attended seminary, have been teaching college courses and singing worship songs on platform for years and years, um, like very knowledgeable, wise people. 


[00:37:39] And this man came up and he picked a couple of people out of the crowd. Told them things that were very specific about their lives, made them cry, was very moving, made all these promises. Um, claimed you as a prophet the whole time. I was like, no, this isn't for real. And that was my, you know, own conviction through the Holy spirit. 


[00:38:02] And after speaking to some of the other people that were there, they agreed with me that this was just weird. Um, it wasn't, it wasn't from God. And so, um, but you know, you have these people who work in ministry who just fell for it. They ate it up, especially the ones that got spoken to or chosen. It's like, we're also desperate for a word from God. 


[00:38:22] We're also desperate to be edified or encouraged or, you know, told we're on the right track and promised things that we want desperately. And so if we have somebody standing in front of us, we'll drop everything that we know to be true and everything that we've ever thought critically about because we've been edified, even if it's not real. 


[00:38:40] It's very easy to fall into that trap. 


[00:38:43] Ben: And building off of that, Christ demands a lot of things from us, and those things he demands require bravery. If you're going to talk to someone about Christ, you need to be fairly brave. If you're going to go into ministry, you need to be very, very brave. You need to be willing to look like a complete idiot. 


[00:39:01] You need to be willing to step out there and occasionally be wrong and be very wrong and have people point in your face and laugh and say this is how wrong you were and that's nerve wracking and that's terrifying and you're doing all of this for a God who at times seems very distant. God doesn't show up and literally write your sermons for you. 


[00:39:17] He speaks to you. I do believe that he speaks to you. Genuine church leadership, but even then you don't always know if it's you or if it's God and sometimes you're going to focus too much on yourself and you're going to write a message that may be true, but ultimately doesn't have the power of the spirit in it. 


[00:39:31] And so when you finally see someone and this person says, I am a prophet, I speak on behalf of God, there will be no more ambiguity. If you speak to me, it's the same as speaking to God. Now you have a direct line. Suddenly, you don't have to be as brave. A weight has been taken off of you. And so, I can understand that appeal. 


[00:39:52] I genuinely can. It's wrong, but I can see why a lot of people in leadership who are terrified and who feel tired and who feel overworked and they want something that they can be certain of, suddenly that's presented to them. Yeah, I can see why they take that bait. 


[00:40:06] Gina: There's been so many examples where Cause Cody and I went through seasons of infertility and we've met a lot of couples along the path that have also gone through it. 


[00:40:16] And so many of them have been like, well, this stranger just came up to us and promised us that God was going to give us a baby. And for a long time, I was like, Cody, why hasn't anybody just like had it on their heart to come up to us and say that. And I've kind of realized, like just because somebody may have experienced that and feel for you. 


[00:40:38] Like doesn't necessarily mean that their prophecy is going to come true. Like, we're not guaranteed that our prayers, like our deepest desires are going to be answered and it feels great to hold onto that, but I've seen it inhibit and like hold back people from actually doing the right thing. And so like having that, that desire, um, acknowledged doesn't necessarily mean that, that it's from God. 


[00:41:05] And I think it's a slippery slope to. Take people at their face value, especially when they're making promises. 


[00:41:12] Ben: There are people who feel like they're being very compassionate and they feel like their compassion is coming from the Lord. And to be fair, the compassion itself may very well be coming from the Lord, but at the same time, they feel like, okay, so this person really needs something from God. 


[00:41:25] They need a solid answer. Maybe that's true, but you're not going to be the one that gives it to them. Most likely. Yeah. God. Maybe through the Holy Spirit telling you, yes, this is very sad. You should empathize with this person. You need to be a friend right now. It doesn't automatically follow that you should be giving promises that God isn't making. 


[00:41:46] In fact, it's certain you shouldn't be doing that. And 


[00:41:48] Gina: there's scripture to back that up because it calls people foolish who makes those kinds of promises or takes the place of the Holy Spirit or takes the place of God by making promises to people that they don't know for sure can be kept. 


[00:42:00] Ben: Now to be clear, God can do that through people and he has, but if millstone around your neck and throwing yourself into the sea. 


[00:42:10] I would not recommend you do that. 


[00:42:11] Gina: And this is where New Age prophecy comes in. New Age spiritualism and manifestation and all that stuff because, and I think it ties in because you have, you have people who believe that, okay, well I'm walking in the light and it's ambiguous and sounds kind of holy, so it must be good. 


[00:42:27] And then, you know, then they have the mediums and the people who, You know, have special titles and do special things with different things and, and suddenly what they're saying is true because they're acknowledging that want in you. And um, it doesn't really matter if it comes from a pastor or a special religious person or if it comes from, you know, the occult, um, all of these things are, it's promising you something that can't be guaranteed by anybody but the Lord. 


[00:42:55] And just because you want it really, really bad, doesn't make it true. And if we let ourselves get caught up in these prophetic words, whatever they're coming from, we're kind of ignoring the whole point of our walk with the Lord. I know that was kind of a tangent, but 


[00:43:12] Ben: no, it's a good tangent. People like your tangents. 


[00:43:16] So I think there's one more point that we should probably address. I think at this point it's pretty clear. It's pretty certain that based on the five core assumptions of Christianity, Mormonism stands in pretty stark opposition to several of them. This one last point, though, I think is one worth addressing. 


[00:43:31] So, they do believe in Christ, and they do believe that Christ died on the cross, but he didn't do it to forgive sins. Instead, he died to guarantee resurrection in the spirit world for all people. So once you die, no matter what, no matter who you are, you're resurrected and you're brought into the spirit world because of Christ. 


[00:43:48] So after you die, you're judged, and then you're sent to either the telestial kingdom, the terrestrial kingdom, or the celestial kingdom, depending on how good you were in life. 


[00:43:57] Gina: They rhyme. 


[00:43:58] Ben: Castile, yes. . So, yeah. Uh, some people who commit unpardonable sins will be sent to the outer darkness where the devil will be sent. 


[00:44:07] But the vast majority of people who exist in this, it doesn't matter if you're Mormon, Mormon or not, you're gonna be reincarnated into the spiritual world, and you'll be sent to one of these three kingdoms. And the highest, I don't know a great deal about the different kingdoms. I believe that at the highest level, the celestial kingdom, that's where people become gods and get their own planets. 


[00:44:26] Correct. 


[00:44:27] Cody: That was my understanding as well. I think the others kind of fall along the lines of the Jehovah witness, which we'll cover. 


[00:44:34] Ben: Yeah. I think they're nice places. You know, they're, they're nice, but you don't get to become a god. 


[00:44:39] Gina: How do I get a Range Rover? 


[00:44:41] Ben: Uh, you'd have to go to the celestial kingdom. 


[00:44:44] There you can just make one. 


[00:44:46] Gina: Well, I could stay a Christian and get a Range Rover. 


[00:44:48] Ben: Sorry. Why did you ask that? Like, you just get a Range Rover. Just get the money and get a Range Rover. I thought you wanted a Range Rover out of this deal. Maybe you'll get one in the Telestial Kingdom. I don't know. The T No, that's for Teslas. 


[00:45:02] The Teslestial Kingdom. Elon Musk. 


[00:45:11] But yeah, this is something that's kind of outside of the core assumptions. This is an idea about heaven and the afterlife. So, since this is a doctrine that's outside of our core assumptions, like it doesn't, strictly speaking, stand against any of them. It doesn't stand against God's existence or His goodness or Scripture. 


[00:45:29] It does, so yeah, you can argue that it stands against Scripture. Because it's blatantly ignoring a lot of stuff that's taught in scripture. 


[00:45:36] Cody: But Paul mentions the seven layers of heaven. 


[00:45:40] Ben: A guy caught up into the third heaven and then heard inexpressible things. And that's basically what they base that on. 


[00:45:47] They say that, okay, so there's these three different types of heavens because Paul once said someone was caught up into the third heaven. That's a bit of a stretch. Like, he didn't say the telestial or celestial or whatever. He just said, a man was caught up into the third heaven and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell. 


[00:46:03] Gina: It sounds so complicated and, like, political, I don't even want to go. 


[00:46:07] Ben: But essentially, they are saying that there is no hell, there is this kind of outer darkness, and some people will go there. But, so, let's say for the moment that it doesn't directly Go against anything, any more than, you know, some wrong doctrines do. 


[00:46:23] Because there are plenty of wrong doctrines that we would say do ignore scriptures. This one is taking a certain scripture and just going buck wild with it, and then ignoring other scriptures, which is what we would argue many doctrines do. So, if that is true, I think we can, you could potentially make the argument it's not, and that it is directly denying scripture, which they already have. 


[00:46:44] in an earlier point. Let's say that it's not. This is a doctrine that sits outside of that. Is it still one that would exclude Mormonism from being Christian? Just this by itself? 


[00:46:55] Cody: It doesn't make sense to me the need for salvation, I guess, at that point. Or like, if everybody's going anyway, it's like universalism. 


[00:47:05] Like, yeah, it doesn't matter. 


[00:47:08] Gina: What? There is some kind of level of judgment here. But there's no real punishment. Like, you don't get to go to the highest one, but you still get to go somewhere. 


[00:47:20] Ben: Sorry, you get the mansion, but you don't get the Ducati. 


[00:47:24] Gina: I wanted the Range Rover. 


[00:47:25] Ben: Fine, fine, but you're not in the Celestial Kingdom, so the best we can do is maybe a Ford F 150. 


[00:47:31] Gina: Can I, can I still wear Burberry? 


[00:47:33] Ben: Sure. 


[00:47:37] Gina: Cody is not amused. 


[00:47:39] Ben: He's not amused. I would say that there are certain parts of this that wouldn't. Like, saying that there are three different, Separations in heaven, so that there's a telestial, terrestrial, and celestial kingdom that make up heaven. That, I wouldn't say, excludes them from being Christian. 


[00:47:58] However, that's just one part of this. Saying that that's the way heaven is set up, okay, that may be wrong, but it's not something where I would say, no, that's the way it is. That makes you not Christian. 


[00:48:10] Gina: There's lots of interpretations of heaven and within the Christian church, like the different rooms and the different levels and all of that. 


[00:48:18] Absolutely. 


[00:48:19] Ben: And even considering hell to be an outer darkness, I would say is not excluded because they're still addressing that something like hell exists. They're just calling it something else. 


[00:48:27] Cody: But 


[00:48:28] Ben: I agree with you, Cody, in that where I do think it starts to stray outside of being Christian is essentially you are going into universalism here. 


[00:48:38] You're saying it doesn't actually matter what you do or what you say or what you believe. God is at minimum going to bring you into heaven. He may not bring you to the highest levels of heaven. He may not make you a God over your own planet, but no matter what, you all get 


[00:48:52] Cody: something. I just want to know, I can't stop thinking, how do I get to the extra terrestrial level? 


[00:49:02] Gina: Oh man. 


[00:49:03] Ben: That's the secret fourth floor that no one talks about. 


[00:49:08] Gina: Does that mean you just jump out and scare people? 


[00:49:10] Ben: No. That one's made by and run by Steven Spielberg. He makes great films. And even better extraterrestrial kingdoms. 


[00:49:21] Gina: Thank you so much for taking the time to listen to our podcast today. If you liked what you heard, please feel free to subscribe and share and leave a positive review. 


[00:49:30] And if you would like to connect with us on social media, you can do so on Instagram and Facebook at the Logic of God. You can also send us an email at Maine dot the Logic of god@gmail.com. Thanks again for listening. We hope you have a great day.